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You would think that they have learned.  But 3 weeks after I left on holiday, I come back to exactly where we were when I left.  
But we are in good news, bad news situation.  The Good News is that the Democratic Party appears to get it.  They understand what needs to be done, and what cannot be done.  The Bad News is that the GOP still doesn’t get it.  
The GOP, particularly in the House, still thinks that allowing the richest 1% to PAY LESS THAN THEIR FAIR SHARE while everyone else struggles is a WINNING STRATEGY.   Well, Stupid is as stupid does.   And Stupid is the only word to cover the GOP current behavior.  

“Americans prefer letting tax cuts expire for the country's top earners, as President Barack Obama insists, while support has declined for cutting government services to curb budget deficits, an Associated Press-GfK poll shows. Fewer than half the Republicans polled favor continuing the Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthy.
There's also a reluctance to trim Social Security, Medicare or defense programs, three of the biggest drivers of federal spending, the survey released Wednesday found. The results could strengthen Obama's hand in his fiscal cliff duel with Republicans, in which he wants to raise taxes on the rich and cut spending by less than the GOP wants.”
 http://news.yahoo.com/...

The Republicans are afraid of losing their primary if they vote with the Democrats to avoid the fiscal cliff.  What they are forgetting is that winning a primary does not guarantee winning an election.  
If the GOP allows us to go over the fiscal cliff while protecting the rich, they are writing their own demise.   It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the scenario that will play out.   But just in case the Dems don’t get the obvious, here it is.      If they do, the Dems just get good strong candidates to run against them starting in January.   Then for the next 2 years, just go around the district reminding everyone that it was their Congressman who caused their pain.  It was their Congressman that raised their taxes while protecting the rich.   It was their Congressman that cut their Medicare or Social Security benefits.  It was their Congressman who allowed deep cuts to Defense.  
TWO YEARS OF THAT IS GOING TO BE IMPOSSIBLE TO OVERCOME AND THE GOP WILL LOSE CONTROL OF THE CONGRESS!  And Boehner will be the FIRST TO GO especially since he is from Ohio!  
I guess they didn’t learn from 2008 or 2012.  Too bad for them, GREAT NEWS FOR THE REST OF THE COUNTRY!
Look, we’ve already seen that spending lots of money, protecting the rich and ignoring the will of ALL THE PEOPLE  and BLAMING the Democrats for their policy failures doesn’t get them elected.  It just won’t work in 2014 ESPECIALLY if their opponent has very deliberately spent the last two years running against those policies.    
And if the Dems are really smart, they will run women and Latinos in those districts where there was heavy support.    Make it a trial run for 2016.
Look we have seen that when the GOP goes against the will of the people for their own political purposes THEY LOSE!  So let them lose!  Good Riddance to their crazy power hungry agenda.  It’s bad for the country.  Hell, it’s bad for the world.     Let them dig themselves into a deep enough hole that no amount of money or no political candidate (even Jeb Bush) can dig themselves out of.  

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (10+ / 0-)

    Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

    by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 05:34:17 AM PST

  •  Is taxing the rich substantive or symbolic? I mean (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib

    does the revenue raised by higher rates on million plus earners really amount to a meaningful sum that can be used to keep the government running. I have a problem with defining rich as $250k plus, because many couples with both working for government make in excess of that threshold. I don't look at government workers as rich people. Our school superintendent makes more than that and we have several school principals who are married to each other exceeding those values. What is rich and o they have enough money to tax to solve our revenue shortages or is it just a gimmick to make everyone feel, except them, better?

    "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

    by Kvetchnrelease on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 05:54:47 AM PST

    •  substantive - it brings in real revenue $$ (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kvetchnrelease, cazcee, a2nite

      It does not totally close the gap between revenues and spending, but it significantly closes the gap.

      •  I read today the gap is almost one trillion a year (0+ / 0-)

        Do rich folk even have a trillion dollars?
        http://www.realclearmarkets.com/...

        "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

        by Kvetchnrelease on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:05:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you kidding? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cazcee, a2nite, phonegery

          Really????  Have you ever looked at the top richest people in the country?  
          When the richest people in this country such as Warren Buffet are ready and willing to pay more money and have publicly declared so, you really think it wouldn't make a difference?  
          Our country's economy grew the fastest BEFORE the Bush tax cuts!  

          Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

          by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:12:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Warren Buffet will pay exactly $0.00 more (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kvetchnrelease

            He has personally said this several times recently in interviews, on TV, on the Radio and online.

            Mr. Buffet's total salary is $0.00/year so raising the tax rate on this will generate $0.00.  Mr. Buffet, however, makes more money in a month then I and my wife will make in our entire lives combined, and he does it via investments which yield capital gains... which are taxed at 15% and, from everything we are hearing thus far, will remain at 15% generating a net yield of new revenue of $0.00.

            (Note:  Having a ZERO salary actually causes complications with a lot of employment law, so I'd be willing to bet he actually as a salary of $1.00/year.  He also probably has a few jobs since I suspect he sits on several Boards of Directors, so all told, he may actually be pulling in $9-$12 per year but we're not raising taxes on that income bracket)

            Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

            by Wisper on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:46:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wisper - just a nit (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              phonegery

              Buffet's salary is $100,000 and has been the same for more than 25 years. As you note his income is from capital gains. If we return to the Clinton era tax schedules the tax on capital gains rises to 20% plus there is a new Medicare tax on capital gains (all investment income) of nearly 4% for a total of about 24%. So Buffet's taxes would increase.

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 09:09:28 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  American wealth imbalance is at an all-time high (1+ / 0-)

          Translation: The rich have never been richer in this country.

          Do "the rich" have $1T? No they have far more than that. The 400 richest people (not families - people) in America were worth about $1,270,000,000,000 according to a 2010 study.

          The problem is not so much with the income tax rates but the real meat is in the capital gains and inheritance taxes.

      •  pasaburbdem - nonsense (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        phonegery

        Allowing the top 2% to return to Clinton era rates (which I support) adds about $80 billion a year to the Treasury. We have a current annual deficit exceeding $1 Trillion so the change could drop the deficit by less than 10%, which is not "significant" by any standard. If all the Bush tax cuts expired it would raise nearly $400 billion a year. THAT'S SIGNIFICANT.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 09:06:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It is both (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kvetchnrelease, cazcee

      I don't have a problem with it because they are NOT PAYING their fair share.  They are not paying the same in Taxes, Social Security (because it is capped) and they have the means to do things that the rest of the country who is carrying the load and has been ever since the Bush tax cuts were put in place cannot do.    Our country is suppose to be about fairness and equality, but it's not as long as some people are not paying their fare share.  

      Besides, this debate is useless.  The people of this country spoke loud and clear when they chose to re-elect POTUS Obama.  

      So as long as elected representatives continue to ignore the will of the people, they are writing their own political demise.  

      Don't like paying taxes.  Get a good tax accountant for crying out loud!  Do it yourself and you deserve to pay more!

      Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

      by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:03:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No one "likes" paying taxes. It's a duty/law, not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        beaky

        a source of pleasure.

        "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

        by Kvetchnrelease on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:08:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm tired (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Contra, cazcee, frsbdg, Manny, a2nite, jan4insight

          of people whining about having to pay taxes.  Try visiting a country where there is no taxes, no welfare, no Social Security, no unemployment, etc.   See how those people live.  I HAVE!  Then talk to me about how bad taxes are.  

          Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

          by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:15:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Fee for service (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a2nite

          You like that Interstate highway? You pay to use it.
          You like the EPA? Pony up.
          Medicare- paid for. Social security? You contributed your fair share.

          People need to understand that our Union works because we share the costs and benefits. We'll always argue whether the better use of that money is to take care of We The People, or to build more guns and bombs. I know which direction I prefer.

          "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

          by US Blues on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:39:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  If its more symbolism then I don't have a problem (0+ / 0-)

        with them paying more if it makes all of us feel better and think the country is fairer.

        "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

        by Kvetchnrelease on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:10:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Mainly symobolic (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kvetchnrelease, Odysseus, phonegery

      It will generate some money, but the people that very rich will not see a tax increase at all.  Warren Buffet has said as much many times recently.

      Outside of professional athletes or something, no one actually has a multi-million dollar salary.  They have income of millions per year but the vast vast vast majority of it comes in the form of capital gains.... and that tax is 15% and I haven't heard much tax of raising it in this round of negotiations.

      Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

      by Wisper on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:41:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree but (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Odysseus

        Look you can't close the gap only on cuts.  Anyone who has seen a decrease of income in the past 4 years, understands there is only so much you can cut.  

        There has to be additional income.  And that means EVERYONE PAYS THEIR FARE SHARE!    When everyone is paying their fare share, then the economy grows.  History teaches us that.  

        Are there other ways of generating new income?  You bet there is but that's another diary!

        Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

        by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:58:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  ok (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kvetchnrelease, Odysseus

          but when the people that you are supposedly trying to make pay their fair share are TELLING YOU that this actually will raise $0.00 from most people, except for some at the lower end of this 2% bracket, why are we all this excited about it?

          I was really hoping to hear that Cap Gains was going from 15% to 20% or something.  That would have the GOP going utterly ape-shit and every wealthy American calling their tax lawyer.  that is BIG.. VERY BIG.  But raising the salary tax on people with no salary... meh... why stop at 39%?  Raise it to 50%.  What the hell.....

          ..and don't get me wrong... I am NOT calling for some kind of draconian cuts to slash our way out of this.  I'm all for revenue, but this particular item that the commenter above asked about is more about the symbolic promise-keeping of Obama's 2012 campaign then any actual revenue generation.

          Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

          by Wisper on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:05:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I did hear about capital gains going to 20% (0+ / 0-)

        It should get more exposure no doubt. But somewhre in one of these proposals is a move to make C.G. 20% instead of 15%.

      •  Well maybe there hasn't been much talk (0+ / 0-)

        of raising the tax on capital gains up from 15%, but there should be. Why should 'had to work 9 to 5, (or more),  income  be taxed at a higher rate than 'got it from the family trust and it earns  a comfortable $100 million a year, more or less? Raise the rates.  At one point the top increment of the tax rate was 90%, or so I have read.

        Time is a long river.

        by phonegery on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 01:47:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Both (0+ / 0-)

      Congressional Budget Office (PDF)

      Scheduled Changes in Tax Law. Certain tax provisions that were initially enacted in 2001, 2003, or 2009 are scheduled to expire at the end of December 2012, returning many aspects of the current income tax to rules that were in effect more than a decade ago. Those expiring provisions include lower tax rates on ordinary income and income from capital gains and dividends, wider tax brackets (and thus lower taxes) for married couples, and expanded tax credits. In addition, higher exemption amounts that have mitigated the impact of the AMT since 2001 expired at the end of December 2011.  CBO projects that, in the absence of new legislation, the resulting increase in tax liabilities stemming from the AMT in 2012 will be paid almost entirely in 2013, pushing up receipts that year; also, greater tax liabilities stemming from both the AMT and the expiration of the earlier tax cuts will raise receipts throughout the coming decade. Together, those scheduled changes in tax law will boost income tax receipts as a share of GDP by roughly 1.7 percentage points between now and 2022, CBO projects.
      1.7% of GDP is about $250B.  Of course, all of that isn't coming from the top 2%.

      -7.75 -4.67

      "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

      There are no Christians in foxholes.

      by Odysseus on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:54:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Tax is on income OVER $250K (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rja, Kvetchnrelease

      The $250K is a ceiling -- the taxes beneath that level remain the same, and everybody making over that amount STILL gets the lower rate for the first $250K they make.

      Plus, you can't lower the deficit in one year -- please notice that the Republican plan won't eliminate the deficit at all. And it will take 10 to 20 years to bring us back to the surpluses we had under Clinton.

      Now -- if we get serious about the REAL elephant in the room, the budget item that must be cut is Defense. Let's let the rest of the world take care of itself, bring every single troop home, sell all our overseas bases, and spend that money on bases here in the USA.

      If we really want to protect our borders our military should be here, not Germany, not Afghanistan, and not Japan.

  •  Even Jeb Bush? I hope that's snark, because it's (0+ / 0-)

    lowering a mantle of power on his shoulders mentioning him in this way.

    "Attitude: the difference between ordeal and adventure".

    by friendly person on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:14:11 AM PST

  •  "Death" may be a little strong................ (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight

    just as is "Fiscal Cliff."  No doubt the Rethugs are facing a very real "Decline" in their ability to influence the national agenda if they don't figure out a way to change their ways,............quickly.

    However, as long as the Lame Stream Media (the only thing the Half-baked Alaskan got right) pushes false equivalency and out right conservative talking points; they will continue to be a power with which to contend.  It is critical to the future of our nation that Dems and Progressives continue to be fired up and engaged.  We cannot afford a repeat of the 2010 mid-terms.

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

    by cazcee on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:20:46 AM PST

    •  There won't be a repeat of 2010 (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cazcee, bluezen, Odysseus

      UNLESS THE DEMS DON'T LEARN FROM 2010.  

      Look the Dems were warned NOT TO GIVE US A CRAPPY HEALTH BILL or else face the probability that many people who voted for them in 2008 would stay home.  

      Did they listen??? NO!  And what happened?  They pissed off a lot of people who voted for them in 2008 and they stayed home.   As a result, the GOP got control of the House.  

      So no compromising with the GOP on this issue!   Period.   The peole have spoken!  Compromise on this issue and you will see a repeat of 2010.   Stand your ground, and start running good Congressional Candidates ASAP and they will take back control of the Congress.  

      And no, I don't think death is the wrong word at all.  

      Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

      by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:26:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey PC......................... (0+ / 0-)

        I am on your side; and I hope you stay fired up. I agree with the "no compromise" stance on taxing the richest 1%, protection of the Safety net (so called entitlements (another LSM meme)), the need for infrastructure spending and more cops, firemen and teachers.

        I think that there is about a 30% chance the Rethug party will fracture completely (die) between now and 2014.  However, we need to continue to act as if they are a united, strong, determined, well-funded opposition force.  They will clean our clocks if we underestimate them at any point.

        The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

        by cazcee on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:44:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Just look at this last election. (3+ / 0-)

      Over 47% of American voters wanted Romney as President.  And 46% wanted McCain in 2008 with Palin!  Corporate owned media has programmed people in ways we've all been watching over the decades, and it's scary in its scope.
       

      "They love the founding fathers so much they will destroy everything they created and remake it in Rush Limbaughs image." MinistryofTruth, 9/29/11

      by AnnieR on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:38:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No disagreement here (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        a2nite

        that corporate America is doing it's best to control reality.   Lesson learned from 2012 is no matter how much money you spending trying to convince people that 1 + 1 = 3, they aren't going to buy it.  Some will, but most won't.  

        Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

        by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:53:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  not to go all pc on you, but the reason palin's (0+ / 0-)

      nic for the msm wasn't picked up & made as popular as she hoped is b/c the term "lame" carries a negative connotation, & for people who have a disability that causes a loss of mobility, like severe arthritis or the loss of a limb, etc., it's viewed as being derogatory.  i believe "weak" is now the preferred name given to ideas, etc., deemed to be crap.

      it's doubly ironic that sarah palin, who jumped the prez's ass when he used the term "retarded" b/c she has a down's syndrome child, thinks it's "cute" to make fun of people who have a disability she doesn't personally have to deal with.

      hope i wasn't too out of bounds with this advice :)

  •  Funny, I can remember all the same talk (0+ / 0-)

    about the death throes of the Republican Party exactly FOUR YEARS AGO to the day.  I wish there was a way to go back in time and list the whole recommended list for specific dates.

    •  The difference is (0+ / 0-)

      that this time POTUS is not running for reelection and they have already learned their lesson from 2010 (let's hope).

      Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

      by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:52:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  exactly (0+ / 0-)

      an important thing to keep in mind.

      but, a few things have changed since then.

      1. 2010 was in response to 2008, with a whole bunch of aggrieved  GOPers eager to hit back for the "wrong" of 2008. that is what the faux "tea party" hype tapped into. but the GOP establishment quickly lost control of it, and that faction has actually cost the GOP some very significant winnable races. so now they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. the establishment needs that faction for money, grass roots organizing, and GOTV, but catering to them costs them credibility with almost everyone else.
      2. now that Obama doesn't need to worry about a second term, he's much more free to play hard ball with the crazies than before. and we can see the results of that already. he will not give the GOP leadership cover if they want to cater to their base. so they are really on the horns of a dilemma. deal with Obama, they have a intra-party revolt on their hands. cater to the base, and they marginalize the party even further.

      the GOP is not dead by any means, and they still have their business power base and lots of cards to play. but as long as they stick to their core economic agenda and cater primarily to their base, they will marginalize themselves.

      way to early to say it yet, but I think there is a real chance in Obama's second term to do what he said Reagan did: change the trajectory of our politics. not a huge realignment, but a nudge in a better direction where the GOP and its voters have to step out of their fact-free parallel universe and deal with the reality based community again.

      •  I just mean that these characterizations (0+ / 0-)

        of the death of the party tend to be very short-sighted and overlook the fact that a clear loss leads to not death but to some kind of reorganization and change of plan.

        In 2008, everybody seemed certain that the Republican Party had been destroyed by Bush's incompetence.  Not so.  Within months, it had begun reorganizing itself as a loony tune Teabagger turf-roots party and turned its back on Bush as if that whole thing was ancient history of no concern.  It surprised the hell out of us that that ever could work.

        Expect them to change in some way.  Maybe they'll be saner, maybe not.  Maybe nicer and more cooperative, maybe not.  But they'll change in some way to wipe away the stench of Romney.  And it will once again surprise us all how easy it will be for them to do it.

        •  i'm agreeing with you about 2008 (0+ / 0-)

          but I think their path forward from here is a lot less clear. now that the tea party card has been played and it failed to knock off Obama, simply sticking with that tactic is not going to help them. but, any move away from that faction carries risks for them as well. i don't think the party leadership knows what to do about it, and for now they are just playing for time. but I think they know they are going to start losing big fights with Obama soon, and that they will start to pay a price for that with their base.

          how they handle that and where it leaves them in the next two cycles is hard to say. they may not be dead, but they've got a big problem on their hands with no easy solutions.

        •  Coalition is fracturing. (1+ / 0-)

          The Republican coalition is the Three Rs - Rich + Religious + Racist.

          I see significant evidence that that coalition is fracturing, or at the least that it is no longer enough alone.  The Republicans are going to have to change their coalition, and it's really not clear what the best direction for that is.

          Drop opposition to Gays?  Try to woo Asians?  Allow women first-class economic opportunity?

          All of these seem impossible now, but something has got to give.

          -7.75 -4.67

          "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

          There are no Christians in foxholes.

          by Odysseus on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 09:04:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  And then when the left (0+ / 0-)

      didn't immediately get EVERYTHING they wanted from Obama they started bashing both him and the Democrats so hard and so continuously that they became responsible for generating the "enthusiasm gap"- which you saw the results of in 2010.

      "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

      by Whimsical on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:35:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Odysseus

        I think 2008 Obama voters gave fair warning about what they wanted and what they expected and what would happen if he gave us a lousy healthcare bill.   That was the only thing that anyone drew a line in the sand about.  

        Then we got a lousy bill anyways.  it was like saying, well , what are you going to do about it?  Vote for the other side?  

        So voters stayed home and they got what they deserved.  Plus they weren't even trying to develop any new districts.   There are some Dem voters who have a right to be PO'd because no one gives a damn about them because they live in a Democratically designated Red state.  

         

        Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

        by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:52:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I disagree (0+ / 0-)

          Anyone expecting a great deal more from the healthcare bill was being unreasonable. It was close to the best deal that could've passed at the time.

          However, had the left played it smart and supported the Democrats for the amount of progess that they had made rather than trying to punish them for not delivering the impossible immediately, we'd be two years further into improving the healthcare bill.

          Instead, we've spent the past 2 years fighting unnecessary battles because of the lefts unresonable expectations.

          "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

          by Whimsical on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 10:45:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  If so, it seems to me that the mistake (0+ / 0-)

        was Obama's, not the American voters'.  It seems ass backwards to blame the voters.

        •  You are absolutely correct (0+ / 0-)

          So people should not say .."oh the left dumped Obama when they didn't get what they wanted."    That was my point.

          Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

          by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:06:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  If their expectations were at all reasonable (0+ / 0-)

          you'd be correct.  Sadly, they weren't, so you aren't.

          What the left did is the equivalent of going up to a random passerby on the street, asking for a million dollars, and when you don't get a million dollars immediately start shouting at the top of your lungs what a shitheel the guy is and how no one can ever trust him again about anything and everyone who likes him is wrong.

          The left misread the election, badly.  And as a result felt they were entitled to things that stood no way in hell of happening (and COULD NOT happen, no matter who had won).  When they did not get those things they could not have gotten they engaged in an agressive campaign to punish the Democrats for not delievering the impossible, immediatley.

          And quite predictably, because of that Democrats lost.  And things got worse. (And that's not even mentioning the bad timing given that 2010 was a redistirciting year...)

          "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

          by Whimsical on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 10:41:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  If I had a $ eveyr time the GOP has died (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kvetchnrelease, skod, VClib

    I would be facing a serious tax increase on my new-found wealth.

    We'll be lucky to hold the senate in 2014 (the field is 3x worse then it was in 2012 and we'll have presidential race to keep everyone focused on the ass-hats they will run in every red state.

    We have 20 seats to defend, they have 13.  And their 13 are AL, GA, ID, KS, KY, ME, MS, NE, OK, SC, TN, TX and WY.  Aside from Maine, those are pretty much the most conservative states in the country..about all their missing is Utah. Maybe they primary Chambliss in GA and put up a far-right wingnut, but still... its GEORGIA.  And if Collins runs for re-election, she is one of the most popular politicians in Maine, we are not going to beat her.

    Now... OUR 20 seats... AK, AR, CO, DE, IL, IA, LA, MA, MI, MN, MT, NH, NJ, NM, NC, OR, RI, SD, VA, WV.  Now, I know, I know.. demographics are changing... and I do feel a hell of a lot better about CO and NH after seeing the 2012 turnout.  But Alaska?  Arkansas?  North Carolina pretty much kicked every Democrat to the damned curb in November at both State and Federal level and that was WITH Barack Obama at the top of the ticket.  Louisiana?  Montana?  South Dakota?

    Im not saying we wont win more than a few of those, but don't kid yourself that we are going to playing some serious defense in an election cycle without Obama to help us, Romney to help shoot his own party in the foot, a hyperactive media to broadcast every rape gaffe, and more fundraising then we've ever seen.  

    Off-year elections are about partisans and base.  

    Its going to be tough.

    Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

    by Wisper on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 06:57:56 AM PST

    •  Listen and learn (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, Odysseus, drumwolf

      One thing I have found to be a consistent reality is that people who are pissed off vote in numbers.  

      2008 -- people were PO"d at GOP for economy
      2010-- people were PO'd at Obamacare
      2012 -- people were PO'd at stupid stuff that GOP was saying and doing
      2014 -- who are people going to be PO'd at.  That is the question.   Are the going to be PO'd at Dems for compromising on the backs of Medicare/Medicaid?  Or are they going to be PO'd at the GOP for making them pay higher taxes while protecting the rich?  
      Remember -- the Occupy Wall Street Movement initially had more support at the time than Congress did.
      If the Dems learned, they will stand their ground and represent the will of the people.   If they haven't they will negotiate another bad deal and we will see a repeat of 2010.  
      My money is on learning the lesson.  If they want any candidate to win in 2016, they need to start now defining who they are and who they represent.

      Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

      by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:16:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Midterm elections are low turnout. (0+ / 0-)

        There are ~30% of voters who only vote in Presidential years.  We need a turnout machine in every contested Senate race and House district.  This is low tech, and should be the easiest component of a campaign to build.  Do it.

        Every single candidate in 2014 should be asked weekly "What are you doing to GOTV?"

        -7.75 -4.67

        "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

        There are no Christians in foxholes.

        by Odysseus on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 09:06:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Midterm elections (0+ / 0-)

          can be low voter turnout UNLESS YOU PISS PEOPLE OFF!  Then all bets are off, so WATCH OUT!
          Reality teaches us that people vote most when they are PO'd.  So if you want to energize people to vote against you, just go against what those people represent.  
          The entire point to the diary is that the GOP is a dead party as long as they continue to represent the wrong people, the wrong ideas; as long as they represent the direct opposite of the will of the people.    If the GOP allows us to go off the fiscal cliff by not increasing the tax rate on the rich, they will be basically shooting themselves in the foot and bleeding to death.  
          The Dems appear to understand that they have to stand strong on this issue despite the consequences.  They cannot negotiate on Medicare/Medicaid cuts at this time.  
          I think the GOP still doesn't understand the realities of polling.  They are still living in Wonderland where they believe they can say a lie long enough and get everyone to go along with it.

          Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

          by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 09:22:09 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Like a star going nova in it's final death (0+ / 0-)

    throes, watch for the Republican party to spawn violence before they get put in the box for good.

    Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

    by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:22:54 AM PST

    •  Insanity will not prevail (0+ / 0-)

      Nations built on 2 classes (rich and everyone else) do not thrive.
      Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of Insanity.
      GOP Policies are failed Trickle down economics just repackaged and rebranded over and over again.  It's literally insane.  
      2012 teaches Insanity will not prevail! If you are not growing, changing you are dieing.   It's reality.  

      Look the GOP got scared in 1992 when Perot took a huge block of voters away and literally helped Clinton get elected.    The GOP has been divided for years by the crazies and the rich.  That's who they are.   They go out of their way to promote ignorant points of view.  

      Like I said, they haven't convince the majority that 1+1 =3...........yet!

      Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

      by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:33:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If GOP DOA, what will rise from their ashes? (0+ / 0-)

    And why do you think its replacement will not be more formidable than the current manifestation? With a margin of only 4million votes, I'm sure the opposition is reconstituting itself to overcome that delta. I'd prefer a zombie GOP, than a resurrected and revitalized opposition party.

    "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

    by Kvetchnrelease on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:31:05 AM PST

    •  New Parties require Real Leadership (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kvetchnrelease, a2nite

      If you recall, in 1992, the GOP divided itself with Ross Perot as its leader.  
      It died for lack of leadership and they went back to the GOP.  
      Also, the Occupy movement had strong support initially.  It even had good framework for getting out its message, but it died because lack of leadership.  
      For a new and resurrected opposition party to grow to be a force, you need leadership.  There are plenty examples in History of parties and realms falliing for nothing but lack of leadership.
      I don't see any real leadership coming from either the crazies or the rich conservatives.   Not the type of leadership that they need to revitalize the party.  
      They are certainly not getting it with people like Rubio who are questioning the age of the earth or Ryan who thinks that raising taxes on the rich is going to hurt the economy.
      If all the America people see for the next 2 years is GOP leadership protecting the rich on the backs of everything else, that party will continue to erode in places they won't even expect.   And if the Dems want to build a strong party face for themselves, they will learn from POTUS Obama's campaign and go out and find the voters they need by showing themselves to be real leaders representing the will of the people NOT THE WILL OF THE CRAZIES AND/OR CORPORATE AMERICA!

      Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

      by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:42:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So true, leadership is the key! If our president (0+ / 0-)

        Can lead us out of the situation facing our country, he will be enshrined among the greatest. I am grateful he will have the opportunity but fearful, if he doesn't lead us out of this mess, we will be having the same conversation that followed Dukakis defeat about demise of Democratic Party.

        "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

        by Kvetchnrelease on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:54:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not Ominpotent (0+ / 0-)

          People don't expect the POTUS to be the end all/ be all answer to everything.  People are practical.  But Bush got elected because he was perceived to be a better leader than his opponents even though it wasn't necessarily true.   Obama's perception went from expectation of a strong leader in 2008 to the perception of an Uncle Tom negotiating our health care away with big Pharm just to get a deal in 2010.   In 2012, He got relected on the perception that he was better leader than Romney.  

          The GOP's killing itself because it is perceived to be completely out of touch with mainstream America and the rest of the world.  It's perception comes from the tea party and it's refusal to raise income tax rates on the rich.  

          The Dems should do everything they can to keep painting that perception, and be seen as leaders representing what the people want, not what rich fatcat members of Corporate America want.

          Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

          by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:11:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Just saw JimDemint is resigning..rats jumping ship (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        a2nite

        portends sinking ship. GOP ship is sinking after being wrecked in November.

        "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

        by Kvetchnrelease on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:00:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's not time for the victory lap, yet. They're on (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, Apost8, Odysseus, drumwolf

    the ropes but they aren't down for the count yet and they definitely ain't out.

    We need to keep beating the shit out of them (politically speaking) and brutally pummelling them (in terms of local and state organizing) until they are truly dead (as a major political party.)

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 07:44:29 AM PST

    •  there is a very limited framework here (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Apost8, David54

      There are not very many people in the GOP who could step up, be a leader and do what is best for America and its people.   Those that could, won't or highly resist because they will be attacked when they do.  

      So as long as the face of the GOP is nothing but a bunch of politically motivated crazy people who don't believe in science and are protecting the rich on the backs of regular people, they won't grow.  Instead they will just grow old and die away.  That's reality.  Doesn't matter if we are talking about a political party or something else.  

      Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

      by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:02:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Republican Party won't die (0+ / 0-)

    until it is replaced by something else - or some combination of alternatives that its various constituencies dissolve into.  That won't happen by itself, because the money that drives it is by nature extremely patient - the rich have that luxury, as they have all other luxuries.  They can spend decades persistently eroding the economic foundations of society while America sleeps or occasionally fights back with feeble half-measures.  

    In fact, not only will it not die unless the money is firmly separated from the racist/theocracy base, it can come back resurgent at any time.  That's the nature of an infection or a cancer, which is the best possible analogy for right-wing politics in America - it finds the cracks in our attention and seeps through like some toxic primordial ooze.  Basically, we have to engineer the dissolution of the Republican Party into separate political entities.

    This is a tall order, and not likely to occur with any help from elected Democrats - they benefit too much from having the constant threat of the GOP to wave in front of voters.

    In Roviet Union, money spends YOU!

    by Troubadour on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:32:34 AM PST

    •  So True (0+ / 0-)

      Everything you say is so true.  It will simply turn into something else.  But I'm all for a multiple party system and have been for a long time.  I believe that the Independent Party spawned by Ross Perot had validity, it just lacked leadership and faded away.   Such is what is happening to the GOP currently.  I don't see a heroic leader stepping up to the plate either.  Their too afraid of the radical right wing base of the party.  Real Leaders don't operate from a position of fear.  The operate from a position of principle.  As long as your position is reflective of what the American people want, you can grow.  But when it is in direct opposition, when it refuses to acknowledge reality, as long as it plays the role of critical parent over control of our economy, they are playing a losing strategy.   If they keep playing the same game over and over without changing/evolving, then they are dead....we're just waiting for their heart to stop beating.

      Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

      by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:43:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Multiple parties are not inherently better (0+ / 0-)

        than two parties - it just externalizes coalition-building that normally occurs within each party during primaries.  And let's not forget the multi-party politics that allowed the Nazis to get into power in the Weimar Republic by manipulating stronger parties - in other words, multiparty democracy is not inherently more representative than our system, it's just more explicit.

        That said, it would be better for America if the GOP were divided and the Democratic Party were not.

        In Roviet Union, money spends YOU!

        by Troubadour on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:48:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes I get it (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour

          But in our society, we always use a third party to mediate differences especially when those differences are so inherently polarizing.  
          Also, we have a system called the electoral college which was created to prevent extremism from prevailing as it has in past societies to which you refer.  
          I think a 3 party system would greatly benefit our Congress and I'm happy to see 2 independent Senators and would love to see some independent Congressional Candidates.  
          the problem is again leadership.  

          Visit the Iraq Memorial Quilt @ http://www.iraqmemorialquilt.com

          by pollchecker on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 08:54:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  the really bad news is that... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight

    ...no matter how vile, despicable, amoral, heartless, cruel, corrupt and disgusting as the Republican Party has already shown itself to be, policy-wise and in terms of their filth politics, they know that they have two major things that will keep them competitive not matter what: access to unlimited amounts of secret, corporate cash (thanks to five of the most corrupt Supreme Court Injustices in American history (Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts & Kennedy, in their Citizens United ruling/abomination/in-kind contribution to the Republican Party), and the complete support of the filthy rich elites that they have prostituted themselves to (big oil, big business, big media, etc.)

    As long as Republicans have the big media, which are owned by fellow Republicans and the elites, with all of their money and influence, they have concluded, in my opinion, that they can do whatever they want.

    Ever since Citizens United, it's appeared apparent to me that the Republican Party has given up even trying to pretend that they care about what the American people think. They are going to do everything they can to obtain and hold onto power, including screwing over as many American citizens in the process, if need be. They simply don't care. And...as long as they have a willing Republican-owned national news media complex to prop them up and access to unlimited amounts of corporate money to fuel their propaganda machine...they simply don't care about anything but money and power.

  •  I still find it strange (0+ / 0-)

    ..that the military-industrial complex has somehow earned sacred-cow status in the US.

    The dire straits facing America are not due poor people having too much money

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 09:30:34 AM PST

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