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In the wake of the tragic shooting in Connecticut, Mike Huckabee said that the murders were due to the fact that we have removed God from our schools.

Uh huh.

The murders occurred, Gov. Huckabee, because we let guns INTO our schools, not because we took God out.  After all, the United States is a relatively religious place, among the wealthy democracies of the world.  It may be the most religious.

Yet our murder rate is higher than other developed countries. In particular, it is higher, much higher, than the 4 developed countries with the highest proportion of atheists.

Those four? Well, it varies by survey, but Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Japan. are all very atheistic.  All of them, according to Phil Zuckerman's site have very large atheist populations, although estimates vary widely. His estimates range from 33 to 85% atheists for those countries.  The USA? 3 to 9 %.

Their murder rates per 100,000?
Denmark 0.9
Sweden  1.0
Norway   0.6
Japan     0.3

In fact, Japan has the lowest murder rate of any country of more than miniscule size (the only three that are lower are Hong Kong, Monaco and Palau). What is the rate in the USA?  4.2.  More than 4 times the highest of those atheistic countries.

Of course, there are many reasons for the murder rate to vary. Some say that countries that are less culturally diverse have lower murder rates. But at least one country in Europe is, like the United States, wealthy and very diverse. In the United Kingdom, the murder rate is 1.2. And, per Zuckerman's site, at least 1/3 of people in Britain are atheists. But England has gun control.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Agnostics/atheists in the US and A are far morey (7+ / 0-)

    numerous  than 3-9 %.

    And our numbers are growing at an increased rate.

    Megachurches are going BK (how the hell does a tax free institution, based on irrational ideas and fear, go BK? Was this a rhetorical question ag?) churches in the south are suing each other over membership lists, (there are so many padded numbers that they don't even bother culling the dead anymore) Catholics voted against the wishes of their bastardized cardinals and other bird brains. Even the Bain Dramaged AFA cannot get a good protest going anymore.

    All in all, there are reasons why the cardinals, tony Perkins, and others are franking out. Their internal numbers suck.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:45:40 AM PST

  •  How silly. (9+ / 0-)

    Everyone knows that these things happen because we no longer make human sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl.

    We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance.

    by PowWowPollock on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:50:37 AM PST

  •  There was a time I thought of Huckabee ... (10+ / 0-)

    as a decent man and respectable politician. That was like 4 years ago. Then he lost the primaries and joined Murdoch's Fox Noise Empire. He discovered a cash cow.
    Everything went downhill from there ...The man has become part  of the Right Wing Entertainment Complex,only worried about making $$$ and screwing other Americans.
    Right Wing talk radio host has to be the most lucrative profession in America. The Audience is already predisposed to listening to junk and purchase books and any memorabilia to support the cause.

    I feel sorry for those who listen to him.

    •  We're seeing the real Huckabee now. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      celdd, grandmajanet, Yasuragi, plf515

      He tried to be a stealth candidate in 2008, and put up an appearance of being reasonable. But it was only an act. The mask is fully off now.

      We were told that Obama could be attacked for what his former minister said, but we were told that Huckabee's own sermons were off limits. Yes, his own words, his own views, off limits. That's the media's

      But let's take the Huckabee hypothesis seriously for a moment. He claims that if you remove God, you get violence. Norway and Sweden are far less religious than the USA, if his hypothesis is true, we should see that Norway and Sweden have rates of violence far higher than that of the US.

      Yet we see the opposite. Norway and Sweden are far less violent than then the US is. Thus the Huckabee hypothesis is false.

      The Huckabee hypothesis is itself violent. Jerry Falwell said something similar after 9/11, saying that the terrorist attack was the result of divine punishment for liberalism. The reason this is violent is that it states that your life is in danger because of the existence of non-believers or the existence of those who do not believe as you do. If their mere existence threatens you, the obvious solution is to eliminate them by any means necessary.

      The wolfpack eats venison. The lone wolf eats mice.

      by A Citizen on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:08:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Re: your sig (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        plf515

        Although Farley Mowat popularized the idea of wolves living much of the time on mice, Never Cry Wolf was largely a work of fiction, with most of Mowat's supposed research plagiarized from others. The idea of wolves subsisting on mice has no scientific support.

        America—We built that!

        by Mokurai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:20:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lone wolves (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          plf515

          Our culture admires the lone wolf, but while lone wolves exist, the natural state of wolves is in a pack. A lone wolf is an outcast, and isn't going to be able to hunt the same prey as a wolf in a pack. A lone wolf is going to subside on whatever he can get a hold of.

          The wolfpack eats venison. The lone wolf eats mice.

          by A Citizen on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:42:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Huckabee has been a Southern Baptist (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      plf515

      preacher his whole working life. He got his start in 1976 working for a televangelist who praised Huckabee's moral absolutism. Huckabee did, however, work as a pastor to get Blacks admitted to his churches. As a politician, he turned much farther to the right, then to the middle, and lately to the right again.

      America—We built that!

      by Mokurai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:14:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Huckabee has no moral compass except to (7+ / 0-)

    mouth off Focked News views. I thank god every day that I wake up an atheist.

  •  Six years ago (10+ / 0-)

    ... a man came into an Amish school in Lancaster County Pennsylvania.  Killed some kids, killed himself.  That school was full of the Godly and religious ways of the Amish.  It didn't stop that guy.

    Also worth noting:  The kindergarten teacher whose son did this had some guns, at least two.  It is not a big stretch to imagine that she thought she was protecting herself by getting those guns.  Except she was wrong.  Dead wrong.

    "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!", but "That's funny..." (Isaac Asimov)

    by Land of Enchantment on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:35:38 AM PST

    •  The Amish school shooting (3+ / 0-)

      was my immediate thought when I heard what Huckabee said about prayer in school. Someone needs to ask him this question. I tweeted it - but no response.

      On the gun ownership question my first thought was that maybe she did buy these guns but could she have bought them for her son or someone else in the family because, for whatever reason, they could not register them in their own name. We know that this is exactly how Columbine killers, Eric Harris and Dylan Kleibold, obtained their guns. Two people served prison sentences for purchasing/providing them with guns. A third person, Dylan's 18yo girlfriend, also bought 2 guns for them, but I do not think she was charged.

  •  huck is one trick pony; anything good happens (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Byron from Denver, plf515

    it is due to Christianity while anything bad is due to atheism.  Wonder if the church shootings we see from time to time are due to Christian ministers, such as Huck, taking God out of the church?

    •  If you wish to point and laugh, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      plf515

      the best and clearest case is that of Benjamin Franklin's lightning rods, which were denounced in pulpits all across America for interfering with God's will. This lasted until it became clear that churches, soon the only remaining tall buildings without lightning rods, were the only buildings being struck by lightning and burning to the ground. Particularly the ones with the largest and pointiest steeples, and the most superstitious preachers.

      America—We built that!

      by Mokurai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 11:12:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  F@%kabee better start to hope there is no God (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    plf515

    because it won't turn out well for him if so. An omnipotent being is not going to be so easily suckered in by a bible thumbing grift.

    I just flushed my Ronald Wilson Reagan Exclusive Economic Zone. Whaddya know, trickle down theory actually works somewhere.

    by cal2010 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:51:17 AM PST

  •  i had hardball on yesterday (4+ / 0-)

    and chris matthews said something to the effect of if you kill kids then "you have no god in your life".  it went right past me when he first said it but it has eaten away at me overnight.  i dont' think he was taking a shot at atheists and just saying that you have lost all hope when you are moved to commit such heinous crimes.  however, i refuse to be a grouped in with violent psychotic just becausej i have no faith in god.  i am pretty sensitive to this stuff, i find the demonization of rational thought to be disturbing to say the least and dangerous at it's extreme.  

    We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers - thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams. - Peter S. Beagle

    by jk2003 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:52:25 AM PST

    •  Wow! I totally missed that! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jk2003, plf515

      and I, too, am sensitive to this stuff. That's not cool at all.

      •  ha! easy to miss stuff that (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        plf515, Timari

        comes out of tweety's mouth.  his manner of speech is very difficult for me to listen to for very long.  he speaks with so many interjections and fits and starts.  hard to follow the meaning most times.  but i heard that come out of his mouth and it just stuck with me.  

        We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers - thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams. - Peter S. Beagle

        by jk2003 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:53:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I can't be certain, of course, but it is possible (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      plf515

      that Matthews meant it the other way around. If you think you are religious, but you shoot children, you have no real God in your life. If you think you are religious, but you support unlimited access to guns, you have no real God in your life. Like Huckabee.

      I am in the midst of an argument with a minister right now who thinks that he is compassionate to women seeking abortions. I cannot convince him that his statements about explaining the evils of fetus-killing to them as though none of them had ever thought of that reveal that he simply despises such women, and everybody pro-choice, and me, his college classmate, and doesn't even know it. In particular, he keeps repeating that they use abortion as birth control.

      America—We built that!

      by Mokurai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 11:23:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Blaming atheists is nothing new. (3+ / 0-)

    Just like blaming the homos, or the Jews, or the liberals, or whoever you fear.  It's normal.  We should be used to it by now, it's been going on for centuries.

    In fact, I'll bet cave men blamed the tribe over the hill for volcanoes and eclipses.

    Count yourself lucky we live in a time when the blame can't rise to the level of pogrom.  Huckabee can't round up the atheists - even he would consider that unthinkable.  We live in enlightened times.

    Now if only we could stop arming the crazies.

    Early to rise and early to bed Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead. --Not Benjamin Franklin

    by Boundegar on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:00:07 AM PST

  •  Maybe God IS in all the schools (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    plf515

    And everywhere around us.  Except it's not Huckabee's version of God, but Yahweh of the Old Testament - wrathful, terrible and vengeful at times.  And He is in a rage over his creations' love of guns and easy tolerance for death, violence and suffering around the world, and baseless hatred and bigotry toward each other, so he brings down biblical disasters with seeming indifference to innocent or the infidel to try to shock us in to seeing how far we have lost our way.

    I don't really think this.  But I'd love to say it to Huckabee and a local minister who likes to say all our problems are because the fundamentalist God is not in our schools.

  •  On Hardball Mitchell was also blaming the cause (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    plf515

    for "lack of god" in the murderer's life.  Mitchell is another one to blame for aiming crime at lack of god in the life of the of the accused.

    •  Mitchell has never read history and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      plf515

      all the miseries caused by people who not only had "god" in their lives but believed in this entity with all their hearts and souls?  

      I love how thousands of years of atrocities at the hands of religionists and their institutions some how gets conveniently forgotten by believers.

  •  Huckabee needs to have a serious (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaggies2009, plf515

    discussion with his "God" on the definition of morality. According to the scriptures that Huckabee would define as the absolute "Word of God",  his "God" killed millions of children over hundreds of years.  And when "God" went by "Yahweh", he killed Egyptian children to win an arguement with an earthly Pharoah.

    In fact, after reading the whole bible, I think that children should NOT be exposed to it.  

  •  Erick, son of Erick has also (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    plf515

    joined the Huckabee / Fischer chorus and blamed this on our country for being "so far removed from God."

    His course of action is "instead of discussing the politics or the laws, we should discuss the evil and the good and the God from whom we have, as a nation drifted so far."

    Yes, let's get into a serious discussion about theological abstractions and national religiosity. I'm sure that will go so far in preventing the next tragedy.

    More of this drivel here if you must.

    "In text, use only a single word space after all sentence punctuation." - Oxford Style Manual, Oxford University Press, 2003.

    by shaggies2009 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 09:56:00 AM PST

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