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Nicholas Kristof pokes holes in the "but (insert whatever the cause here) causes more deaths than gun violence" argument.

Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries...

So let’s treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health crisis that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States realistically isn’t going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce the carnage. ...

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.

Ross Douthat provides a textbook example of misdirection and muddled thinking as he writes an entire column on Newtown's "loss of innocence" without ever bringing up the words gun, firearm, or shooting. It should be saved for posterity, filed under "Extreme Cowardice."

Washington Post Editorial Board is rarely seen as being left of... right. But not in this case.

The horror is beyond words: a peaceful school in a peaceful town turned upside down by a man with guns, children and teachers killed, families torn asunder, lives altered unimaginably and forever.

And then, almost as horrible, the familiarity of the event. We have been here before, we know the drill. The details of the shooting will be particular — the precise number of casualties, the killer’s exact route, how he finally was stopped or stopped himself — we know the drill....

And, yes, we will argue again about guns, or, rather, about why our politicians are hardly even arguing about guns any more. There are those who will object, who will say gun policy has nothing to do with any single event, that tragedies should not be exploited for political purpose. We know many of our readers are among this group.

And then there will be others, ourselves included, who will say, whatever the facts of this case, that the country would be safer with fewer guns, that mass killings are more difficult with knives, that it is not the Second Amendment but political cowardice that precludes sensible regulation.

The bolding was my contribution.

Alexandra Petri also knows the drill, she just doesn't like it.

I hate that we know how this goes.

I hate that we can’t just say “Oh God,” and “Oh God, horrible, horrible.”

I hate that we have to say “Not again.”

I hate that we realize this. “Now it starts,” we say, “and then a few days or weeks or months from now after we have exhausted our grief and indignation, nothing will change.” ...

This will be the only thing we talk about for a very long time.
But then what?

I know what the script demands. But I hate that something too awful for words has a script.

No one law stops this. No one policy fixes this. Evil persists. Some crimes cannot be prevented. But that does not mean there is nothing we can do.

The next time we say “Not again,” I want it to be a promise.

Fabiola Santiago
In the small, quintessential American town of Newtown, the kind you see portrayed in Thomas Kinkade paintings on a Hallmark card, people knew each other, so much so that firefighters responding to the call of a gunman wildly shooting inside the K-4th-grade school cried their hearts out in recognition of the victims.

Poor, poor babies.

They could have been any of ours. ...

Poor, poor nation.

In a country that has everything — wealth, democracy, opportunity – we’ve lost the most precious thing of all: Peace.

What kind of society endures the gun violence we’ve experienced in the United States this year and the year before — wrath-induced, crazy, sinister gun fire — and does nothing?

A nation like the one where Ross Douthat is hired to provide commentary. One where too many people are willing to look the other way, as long as it keeps their rigid ideology undented.

Gail Collins says we can't pin this one on God, the weather, or plain bad luck.

When a gunman takes out kindergartners in a bucolic Connecticut suburb, three days after a gunman shot up a mall in Oregon, in the same year as fatal mass shootings in Minneapolis, in Tulsa, in a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, in a theater in Colorado, a coffee bar in Seattle and a college in California — then we’re doing this to ourselves. ...

Every country has a sizable contingent of mentally ill citizens. We’re the one that gives them the technological power to play god.

This is all about guns — access to guns and the ever-increasing firepower of guns. Over the past few years we’ve seen one shooting after another in which the killer was wielding weapons holding 30, 50, 100 bullets. I’m tired of hearing fellow citizens argue that you need that kind of firepower because it’s a pain to reload when you’re shooting clay pigeons. Or that the founding fathers specifically wanted to make sure Americans retained their right to carry rifles capable of mowing down dozens of people in a couple of minutes.

Ok, for those who really, really need to think about some other story...

Dana Milbank looks as Boehner's precarious perch.

“Here we are at the 11th hour, and the president still isn’t serious,” [Boehner] repeated.

Boehner is right — seriously. The administration hasn’t been treating the “fiscal cliff” talks as a substantial negotiation, and for one very good reason: It’s not clear it has anybody to negotiate with.

At the White House and on Capitol Hill, a fear is growing that Boehner is not in a position to negotiate a successful deal, because if he strikes the kind of compromise needed to solve the fiscal standoff, he may well lose the support of his House GOP caucus — and possibly his job as speaker.

It must be fun running a house of lunatics. Maybe that's why Boehner cries so much.

Frank Bruni rolls his eyes at the political hot stove league.

Last week I stumbled across this headline: “Gov. Cuomo passes on supporting Hillary Clinton for 2016 presidential bid.”

Take a moment. Savor the epic, eye-crossing absurdity of that. ...

We’re officially out of control here. We’ve really lost it. No sooner had one presidential contest ended than the hyperventilating analysis of the next one began. And I mean “no sooner” literally. Election Day was Nov. 6. On Nov. 7 The Washington Post’s Web site provided readers with a candidate-by-candidate assessment of no fewer than six Republicans and seven Democrats thought to be in the hunt for the presidency next time around. “Handicapping the 2016 Presidential Field,” read the headline on that piece of fortunetelling.

You were sick of the 2012 race many months before its climax? You’ll be sick of 2016 by Easter, and at the rate we in the news media are going, you’ll be seeing polls and prognostications about 2020 by Memorial Day.

I'm sure he's exaggerating. There won't be any polls until after the fourth of July.

By the way, anyone who thinks that owning a gun is somehow upholding their freedom or protecting them from government tyranny is an idiot. That is all.

Originally posted to Devil's Tower on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:07 PM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Sandy Hook shootings push other gun related (23+ / 0-)

    events to the back page but I was amazed today that in the wake of Sandy Hook, there were also these events:
    In Birmingham AL, a gunman invades a hospital and is killed after wounding a policeman and 2 hospital employees.

    Then there is the case of an OK HS student who was arrested for plotting a massacre where he and accomplices would lure students and faculty to auditorium where  they would be shot and answering police would be boobytrapped with pipebombs:
    and all of this is while the event at Sandy Hook is still being sorted out  

    •  1. Separate the mentally ill from guns. (9+ / 0-)

      2. Recognize that we have not been able to detect severe mental illness in more than 30% of the mass murder cases in America. Some 70% of severely mentally ill mass murderers go undetected prior to their crimes.

      3. Recognize that there is no rational "motive" for crimes by psychotics. We're dealing with hallucinations. This holds specifically for the 50,000 Americans who will fall into paranoid schizophrenia at the observed rate of 17 per 100,000 population. Other ideational aberrations for 1,000,000+ Americans  will produce severe psychotic breaks, any of which risk gun-driven murders -- where we include drug-induced episodes.

      4. Construct gun laws that match the risks generated by mental illnesses. This effort can look more like NRA-less Canada. James Madison provided a basis for rational protections in his 2nd Amendment text.

      5. Make gun ownership a matter of qualification.

      The Gail Collins piece touches the bull's eye:

      Every country has a sizable contingent of mentally ill citizens. We’re the one that gives them the technological power to play god.

      This is all about guns — access to guns and the ever-increasing firepower of guns.

      One thing to be clear about is that psychotics are not "playing God." That is an example of an empty pejorative.

      When they go psychotic, they enter worlds of terror.  They enter waking nightmares where anything or anyone can be twisted to be a monster, a demon. These are worlds where unseen voices give commands and fantasy entities take hold of their limbs. It is not unusual that they can find themselves thrown off a bridge or a building. As for James Madison, his age still mostly saw psychotic episodes as proof of demonic possession.

      James Madison drafted the 2nd Amendment, as edited and passed in August 1789, to specify applicability to citizens who qualified to a local militia. That's group, in 1789, excluded the insane and the mentally ill.

      A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
      Habitual drunks were also excluded by this standard. Their colonial militia system had been taken over from England, where militia had been active since Viking days. They had fought the Indians, the French, and the British. Today, we call it our National Guard.

      Make gun ownership a matter of qualification:

      A legally constitutional Bill can be drafted  -- under strict construction, relying wholly on Madison -- that would restrict gun ownership/possession to those of the People who qualify for membership to the National Guard, our militia.

      Challenge the right wingers to put aside this proposal. Run on it nationally. Let us rely once more on James Madison.

      And renew gun ownership licenses as often as we renew driver's licenses.

      •  We need to separate the insane from our government (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Bachman, West, Rand Paul, etc...we have a roomful of crazy people in our doesn't get any better than this...

      •  we need to respond to mental illness and care (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        sisues.  Almost all psychosis driven mass murders have occurred since care of the mentally ill was abdicated in the 1970's.  While we do need more sane gun laws the key common thread is mental illness notdealt with.

        •  We've never succeeded at diagnosing (0+ / 0-)

          more than 30% of mass murderers prior to the crimes.

          We know that 50,000 Americans will fall into paranoid schizophrenia. We have no expectation of identifying all of them, even after the breaks begin.

          Locking up guns -- that's the common sense protective response.

          Meanwhile we have municipalities such as Kentucky where they have 5 guns per person. If it is aimed at "protection," how crazy is that?

          "We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

          by bontemps2012 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:44:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  While we are presented with details of (4+ / 0-)

      one killing there is another killer out there looking for the same glorification thinking "I can do better than that" "I'll show them".  The killer in the Oregon Mall is purported to have shouted "I am the shooter" as he came through the door and would have created more death if his gun hadn't jammed.  Was the Sandy Hook killer watching thinking "that wouldn't happen to me", " I am more powerful than that"?  What is going through the minds of the potential killers as we stop everything and focus on the deaths?  Are they stirred to "do better" or do their own grudges and failures come forth to taunt and haunt them to action?  What are the killers thinking as they see on the news people rushing to buy more guns and ammo, do they see a challenge or a call to action?  To be relevant in their world of perceived neglect are the egged on by the attention of the nation/world to "show them" "get even" or "be THE shooter"?

      And then we have the sanitization of the need for and use of guns by the right wing, they justify their actions by thinking that they too would have saved the situation by having more guns. Ann Coulter said more guns would = fewer mass shootings.  The pro-gun proponents have has many delusions of grandeur as the killers.  They think that would be 100% accurate and calm in these situations.  They too want to show "those people how wonderful the guns are".

      In the meantime......

    •  of course, there is no end to the stories, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      but this of shots fired at a mall in Newport Beach also was timely

    •  Gun control? Drone control! (0+ / 0-)

      If you want to know what cheapens human life in the US, gee, why don't you start with the obvious?

      Obama routinely and heartlessly kills people every day without trial in drone attacks.  Take a look at this stunning and powerful article that appears in todays Der Spiegel (not allowed in US papers) chronicling one American's second thoughts about killing children at the push of a button:

      The children Obama kills without warning are just as innocent as Lanza's victims.  Why don't you protest?  Are you...okay...with it?!

      Lanza knew that Obama kills children and wedding parties on a regular basis.  So he did it too.

      Why does Obama get a free pass from being a low life on the murder issue?

  •  I think it's why Boehner drinks so much. (14+ / 0-)
    It must be fun running a house of lunatics. Maybe that's why Boehner cries so much.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:37:35 PM PST

    •  My thoughts exactly. (0+ / 0-)

      "I'm totally pro-choice in the matter of abortion. But of course I'm also so radically pro-life that I think every person from birth onward must have full and affordable access to healthcare." - Gail Collins

      by gritsngumbo on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:10:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Does WaPo ever talk about guns.... (9+ / 0-)

    ....when there's not a tragedy?

    They've been talking a good game the past couple days but I've never noticed them leading any kind of a call for gun control when gun violence wasn't in the headlines.

    Maybe I just missed it, but all their charges of "cowardice" make me wonder if they've ever pushed for gun control when it wasn't politically popular due to some awful event.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:44:14 PM PST

    •  I quit reading WaPo editorials quite some time ago (7+ / 0-)

      when their infection with Beltway Disease became so pronounced

    •  If WaPo had truthful reporting, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cybersleuth58, Laconic Lib

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:13:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If WaPo had truthful reporting, (10+ / 0-)

        they could report on gun violence every day.  They could devote an entire page in Section A to gun carnage that happened the day before.

        But gun violence is not "news" anymore.  It's become so ubiquitous and ordinary it's no longer a "man bites dog" story unless the victims of a single incident number in the double digits and involve young children.

        However the main reason deaths by firearms are not chronicled in WaPo or any other daily journal is because no one has any idea how to stop it - not journalists, not politicians, not think tanks, no one.

        "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

        by SueDe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:23:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are caricatures.... (0+ / 0-)

          I get so tired of the bread and circuses crowd who think it's great fun to join in on the liberal-bashing of the supposedly liberal but really arch-conservative media institutions like NPR, WaPo and the NY Times.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you:

          by FischFry on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:45:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please explain. nt (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            •  OK.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              It's entertainment -- a festival for liberals like the Roman circuses, where people came out to cheer for people's deaths.

              It's also ridiculously over-simplistic, but it;s a popular vibe here. You won't see a week go by without at least one Rec List diary ripping into the Post, the Times or NPR for being neo-conservative, corporatist. IT's not even that people write those lame-ass diaries -- ti's that their lapped up  by hungry dogs. Maybe, that's not even the best metaphor -- it's a bunch of liberal s getting together to congratulate themselves on how much cooler, superior and progressive they are then the supposed bastions of the liberal media. Plus, it serves to reinforce the meme that conservatives don't what they're talking about when they attack liberal bias in the media.

              It's a theme that gets repeated over and over again, but each time you get all these comments -- there were more than a few in this diary -- about how cool each of us are because we use that corporatist drivel to wrap fish in, not to find out what's happening in the world. Everyone trying to prove how cool and smart they are because they know the dirty secret that the Times and the Post aren't really liberal papers. It's oh so predictable and oh so tiresome.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you:

              by FischFry on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 01:20:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry, I don't see it that way. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                You're right that often the WaPo, NYT, NPR, etc. are among my primary sources of information.  But I think it is perfectly legitimate to gripe when their information is cherry-picked or the judgments they profess are slanted.  The comments here are often highly specific about pointing out the cherry-picking and the slanting.  

                You are also right about this being a community of somewhat like-minded people.  That's how politics works.  If you don't band together, you cannot oppose those who do. Tough.  

                As for the "we're smarter" meme, you may find it distasteful, but I think the dKos community has been rather smart when it comes to election statistics, global warming, the relation between taxes and economics, waging war in the Middle East, and a host of other issues.  

                As to the "entertainment," I'm not sure what you mean.  People on this site get HR'd very quickly if they appear to be cheering for other people's deaths.  

        •  They did their D.C. Sniper coverage (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laconic Lib, SueDe, VigilantLiberal

          obsessing about "motive" and the imaginary "white van."

          Hasn't gotten any better.

          Every line written about "motive" or "getting back" by shooters is a misdirection. Mass murder is not like swinging a baseball bat at a crowd of bullies in 8th Grade.

          These individuals are more often psychotic than not -- far outside anything that passes for rational behavior.

          •  EXACTLY! That's why everyone talking about gun (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            control is missing the point; we do nothing to address mental illness in this country and that's the real issue here.

            •  The two halves of the same issue. (0+ / 0-)

              Homicidal ideation + open access to guns = the problem.

              I'd be in favor of requiring any house that has a gun to have a gun safe.

              Also, for everyone in the house to pass a Mental Status exam.

              We're seeing 30,000 people a year killed. That's only addressable by restricting access to guns. We have to change.

              156,000,000 gun buys in the last fourteen years -- crazy stuff. Really, crazy.

              "We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

              by bontemps2012 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:37:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  This (3+ / 0-)

          Tonight at ten a mass shooting at a school in Germany at least sixteen people dead
          Brooker: yes because on the same day as the peace demonstration a lone maniac in Germany went berserk with a gun killing sixteen people. This senseless tragedy
           provided material for news reports for days to follow
          First there were the initial dramatic breakdowns detailing precisely how the carnage unfolded. There was grim voyeuristic mobile phone footage of the gunman's last moments and a chilling reconstruction of a warning he apparently posted on the internet
          NEWS NARRATOR: He typed these words
          everybody's laughing at me and no one sees my potential I'm serious

          Brooker: which later turned out to be almost  certainly false, incidentally.

          The aftermath in Winninden proved so compelling for the vulture like rolling news stations they even filled air-time with things that weren't happening yet. Two days later even footage from an old ping pong tournament, in which the back of the gun man's head was vaguely visible was still considered news

          BBC Narrator: The latest pictures of Kretschmer show him playing table tennis his favorite sport

          Brooker: And 3 days later even worse footage, pixelated so that it looked like a broadcase from the ** lego dimension, well that was considered news too.

          Sky News: In the video Kretschmer shown taking part in an arm wrestling contest in Rottenburg last year

          Brooker: Yeah, I think if I squint I can just about make out the face of a killer. Isn't the news Brilliant.

          Repeatedly showing us a killers face isn't news it's rubber necking.
          What's more the sort of coverage only serves to turn his
          murderous little twat into a sort of nihilistic pin up boy.

          One thing the news kept plaintively asking was just why this had happened,

          BBC Narrator:  What had triggered in the mind of a seemingly normal teenager, such fury and alienation

          Brooker: Well if you want to know why, why not ask a  forensic psychiatrist

          psychiatrist : we've had twenty years of mass murderers throughout which I have repeatedly told c_n_n_ and our other media if you don't want to propagate more mass murders don't start this story was sirens blaring

          News Narrator: Background noise (sirens) The school day had only just begun when the attacker struck

          psychiatrist : Don't have photographs of the killer

          Narrator: The seventeen-year-olds three hour rampage which ended in his own death

          psychiatrist : Don't make this twenty four seven coverage

          SKY News Announcer: The German Chancellor is about to give  her reaction, we will bring that to you live.

          psychiatrist : Do everything you can not to make the body count the lead story

          BBC News Narrator: Carnage in the classroom sixteen people are dead

          psychiatrist : Not to make the killer some kind of anti-hero

          NewsNarrator: Dressed in black combat gear the gun man opened fire at random.

          psychiatrist: Localize this story to the affected community and make it as boring as possible in every other market because every time we have intense saturation coverage of a mass murder we expect to see one or two more within a week but

  •  no one will b reading this. good/night? (1+ / 0-)

    clime parches on. terms: ocean rise, weather re-patterning, storm pathology, drout-famine, acceptance of nature.

    by renzo capetti on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 01:49:30 AM PST

  •  Poor Boehner (14+ / 0-)

    His weak leadership of the various and sundry GOP caucuses in the House has finally come back to haunt him.
    He had such a large majority that he could allow the Teabagger reps to vote any way they wanted (for example, my Congressman voted against Paul Ryan's plan, and against every single appropriations bill, against raising the debt ceiling and for anti-abortion bills, for repealing the ACA).
    Now that his caucus is shrinking, he needs them to come together over a deal or be forced to negotiate with Nancy Pelosi. If he agrees to raise taxes, he's screwed. If he fails to get his caucus to vote together, he's screwed.
    Ah, for the magical days of 2011, eh, John?
    Fuck America project

    Now they're all standing behind him with knives in their hands.

    “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

    by skohayes on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 03:18:16 AM PST

  •  It's terrorism (9+ / 0-)

    so add it to the War on Terrorism. White people should not be exempt from the War on Terrorism. It's Whack a Mole, if you tell them that you're coming for them, they pop up. Then you whack 'em.

    That's the way we do it now in other countries. Do it here. We tell Pakistan that we want assurances that their weapons are properly secured, do it here. We tell Iran that we don't trust them with weapons. Do it here.  

    We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance.

    by PowWowPollock on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 03:38:27 AM PST

    •  actually there were two other incidents that (8+ / 0-)

      have been pushed from the front pages; one is a shooting at a hospital and another is an OK HS student planning to reenact Columbine.

      however we will never call it terrorism because only Muslims commit terrorism.  All these other events are isolated events by lone wolf gunmen who are totally unaffected by talk radio or the public discourse from the Right.

    •  It almost certainly isn't terrorism (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      there was no political agenda, even an anarchist one.  Why do I think that?  Well, there was no manifesto that we know of.  Yes, they may have found something that the police have not released, but if the shooter had wanted to make a political statement in that way there are a thousand ways to make sure it gets out.  

      Terrorism is killing abortion doctors, and blowing up clinics.  Terrorism is threatening the president.  Terrorism is targeting government buildings or people.  All designed to make people afraid, to change things.  

      I get frustrated when a person with mental illness (which reports indicate was the case with Lanza) is called "terrorism". In this case it almost certainly isn't terrorism.  

      As to the second half of your comment, I completely agree with you.  That locking up the guns, making sure they are not available to someone who is not licensed to have them, would be really helpful.  The numerous gun accidents with children using their parents' hunting rifles in my part of the country would be decreased if this were the case.

      •  Maybe the killer didn't have a clear (0+ / 0-)

        agenda.  But one cannot say that the killing was random.  It didn't happen at a country club or a boardroom, or a retirement home, or a mosque.  We may not know what exactly the killer was trying to prove, but we also will never really know what the 9-11 terrorists thought they could prove, or whether they had ever really thought much about the consequences of their killing.  Terrorism is about the production of terror -- it doesn't necessitate clearly defined political objectives.

        We can talk all we want about "personal responsibility" to keep guns locked up, but the evidence is in -- it doesn't work.  Guns kill, and the more guns there are, the more people get killed.

        Trying to split hairs about whether or not the latest mass murder qualifies as terrorism is nothing other than an NRA tactic to divert people's attention from the central issue: guns.  

        Likewise, all this bullshit about keeping guns locked up is just that, bullshit, and another NRA talking point.  

  •  When I go to school on Monday... (30+ / 0-)

    ...I'm probably going to cry.

    I supervise an elementary lunchroom, and my first lunch is kindergarten and 1st graders. I will help them open the yogurt sleeves, fruit cups, drink containers, thermoses sealed tight by the hot contents (I've decided it's part of my exercise routine), etc. Then I will lead them out to the playground and make sure they are being good citizens to each other.

    But I will find myself thinking about Newtown and I'll have to remember stay focused on the children in my care.

    This won't be the last such incident. There is nothing that will completely prevent any such tragedy from every happening again. But can somehow find the political fortitude to attempt to make the next one 2 or 3 YEARS from now instead of 2 or 3 MONTHS??

    When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Egalitare on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 04:03:15 AM PST

  •  Ross Douthat must get a paycheck from the Gun (6+ / 0-)

    Lobby somehow

    The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

    by JML9999 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 04:42:37 AM PST

  •  It's all about the business lobbies (27+ / 0-)

    Think about it.  They are ruining this country.

    They are preventing gun safety laws because of money.

    They are destroying unions because of money.

    They stop action on global warming because of money.

    They distort our electoral process because of money.

    They start wars because of money.

    At what point do we say we had enough and we drive the merchants of death, destruction, social injustice from the halls of our governments?

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 04:42:48 AM PST

  •  In Nooz of the Inevitable....Boehner caves... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
  •  Let's deregulate Plutonium 'cause A-bombs don't (18+ / 0-)

    kill people, people kill people!

    Yes I know that's a bit of reductio ad absurdum, but plutonium has peaceful uses too! Talk me down!

    -1.63/ -1.49 "Speaking truth to power" (with snark of course)!

    by dopper0189 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 04:52:13 AM PST

  •  Only the most abject coward (15+ / 0-)

    Only the most abject coward feels the need to be armed all the time. Only the most irresponsible kind of person keeps a firearm, loaded or otherwise, freely accessible in the home. I can see the victim of a violent break in needing something close by just to be able to sleep. I can see the victim of a violent stalker arming him/herself. But for most other Americans, the need to be armed is the result of pure, abject cowardice. I admit, life can be scary and having owned and used firearms, (in the service), I can tell you that a gun can give you a visceral feeling of power and control like no other object. But I also decided long ago that it's counterproductive to the enjoyment of life if you go through it constantly afraid of losing it. I can see getting a gun in the future....if there is a zombie outbreak.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 04:59:33 AM PST

    •  I grew up with guns in the house... (21+ / 0-)

      And I hunted and target shot many times growing up. But today, I don't own a gun. There are no guns allowed in my house. And the main reason why is simple.

      I don't want my kids playing with one and ending up getting shot and killed. Or taking their anger out on another by taking my gun. It's just not worth it!

      If I am threatened, I call the police if I can't deal with it.
      If there is a problem in the neighborhood I call the police if it's beyond my ability.

      We live in a civilized society, not the Wild West.

      Firing a gun is a legal nightmare. You have a higher chance of getting yourself in trouble with a gun in your possession than without. That's my opinion.

      "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

      by Wynter on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:19:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Is seeing yourself as powerless (5+ / 0-)

      the same as cowardice?  Is being fearful, the feeling of being vulnerable, the same as cowardice?  I don't know.  What I do know is that there is a lot of abject fear in this country, and a lot of it is fear of other people owning guns while you're unarmed.

      Everyone I know who keeps a loaded gun in their bedside table does so out of fear that their house will be broken into in the dead of night, and without that gun the household would be at the mercy of the invaders.  Their house has never been broken into; they or their family members have never been threatened by anyone,  least of all by late-night home invaders.  But their fear persists.  It's illogical and irrational, but there it is.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:34:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Okay, please reread my comment (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Amber6541, SoCalSal

        If you take a breath and read past the first line you will see that no, I don't think of feeling powerless as cowardice. I also very clearly said that "only an abject coward feels the need to be armed all the time", (though I've only bolded it here). I also go on to say that I can understand why victims of violent crime would feel the need to be armed. My point remains though that if one goes through their life entirely, obsessively afraid of losing it, then what enjoyment can one get out of being alive at all? I bid you peace.

        "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

        by MargaretPOA on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:57:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Our house HAS been broken into (6+ / 0-)

        And in the middle of the night.

        They came in through an unlocked window.

        They took money from our wallets, and left. We never saw them, thank god. Never woke up.

        They didn't take anything else. No computers, no tvs, no phones, didn't even take credit cards. All were accessible, especially phones.

        Cops were there within 5 min of our calling them, and they caught the person trying to break into another house in the neighborhood.

        We don't live in the country. There's a good bit of traffic in our area. Cops drive by on a pretty regular basis too.

        We did change things a little after the break in. We got a/c, so we didn't have to leave windows open. And I took the cushions off the backyard furniture so you couldn't climb on it, and make sure the downstairs windows are locked.

        But I didn't get a gun. Nor did I want to.

      •  fear mongering is a also a big business in (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SoCalSal, Minnesota Deb, SueDe

        this country

        •  Wish I could rec this comment 100 times. (0+ / 0-)

          Everything from commercial advertising to political bloviating seems to be specifically designed to keep us quaking in our boots about one thing or another.  It's annoying.  I get no joy whatsoever - or even excitement - from being afraid.

          "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

          by SueDe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 03:19:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I also grew up with guns in the house ... (6+ / 0-)

      along with a rather unstable father who owned most of them (He gave me a .22 when I reached my late teens - which I got rid of when I moved east.) When Dad got too unable to run his own affairs (and I had power of attorney) I took all the guns and ammo and disposed of them. I've never felt the need for a gun, although I can envision that if I was a rancher living on the Mexican Border  these days I would probably keep a few.  It would be a sad commentary on our country if everybody had to be armed.  The first thing the town marshall of some frontier western town would do would be to disarm any cowboys coming into the town. Civilization came to the west because lawmen did this as one too many cowboys would get liquored up and shoot up the town if it was not done.  

      "Well regulated" is the key!

    •  Psychotics are different. (0+ / 0-)

      Waking nightmares.

      Not your ordinary risk/reward mind set.

  •  What's the difference between (11+ / 0-)

    what Boehner is proposing now and what he's proposed before?  "We'll accept higher revenues (not a higher tax rate) IF we can get substantial entitlement cuts in return."  Regardless of his position on taxes, tax revenues, tax reform, it's always premised on cuts in entitlements.

    This is not "negotiation" in any sense of the word as it's understood in common parlance.  The only way entitlement cuts are going to be in the negotiations is if the Democrats put them on the table, and it's up to us to keep that from happening.

    "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

    by SueDe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:02:32 AM PST

  •  Connecticut's Militia needs better regulation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, Laconic Lib

    it has clearly run amok.  

    Danny boy Malloy has gotta feel him some powerful doubts about how well the 2nd amendment has protected the security of his free state.

    I hope he will be remembered for the moral courage he will show in the coming days and not the moral indignation and pompous posturing of the harrumphing class.  

    I trust that as a democratic Governor and a former Mayor he will rise to the occasion.  

    "I'll press your flesh, you dimwitted sumbitch! " -Pappy O'Daniel

    by jakewaters on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:11:06 AM PST

  •  Pray away the issue... puh leeze! (9+ / 0-)

    I had a long drawn out argument with a facebook friend of mine yesterday. He just wanted to "let them grieve" and not talk about guns. That simple little commonplace reaction got my dander up.

    I screamed back at him, "We've had all kinds of grief. We need to stop this from happening again, and again." His "hide his head in the sand" mentality angered me more than I could say. Twenty little kids were mowed down at school. And he wanted to just pray and wish it away.

    We tried that. IT DOESN'T WORK!

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

    by Wynter on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:12:33 AM PST

  •  Shootings in Chicago for November=192 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, bontemps2012, tb mare

    Shootings up 49% in November

    Thelma Smith was visiting her mother's South Side home Friday night to talk about a birthday party in memory of her son, Samuel Clay, 25, who was shot and killed in April.

    After several shots rang out on the next block, Smith rushed over and discovered to her horror that another son, William Lee Martin, 30, had been slain.

    The father of six became the latest sad statistic as a violent November came to an end. Shootings jumped to 192 for the month, up 49 percent from 129 a year earlier, according to Police Department records.

    Read it and weep.  And if you think stricter gun control laws could have stopped them, you are kidding yourself.  Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation.  Criminals don't care.

    May I repeat that please?  Criminals - gang bangers - don't care!

    Let's have that discussion about gun crime violence and murder, but it better include a whole lot more than silly ineffective gun control laws.

    •  And how do all these criminals get their guns (10+ / 0-)

      in the first place? They get legal gun owners to buy them for them. Or they go to shady, but legal, gun dealers, and buy them. Only about 10-15% of guns used in crimes are actually stolen. And even illegal gun dealers use straw purchasers or purchase the guns legally, only to resell them illegally. Link

      So almost all illegal guns trace back to legal owners. Cut off the supply of legal weapons, and the supply of illegal weapons will be reduced, too.

      •  all sorts of ways to get a gun (4+ / 0-)

        local cop here used to pull people over on I-95 and find a reason to search the car (object and you will find your vehicle completely taken apart)
        If he found an unregistered handgun and nothing else, he would confiscate the gun and let you go with the stern admonition should you try to reclaim the gun, he would have to file all sorts of charges against you.  No one ever complained.

        Same cop ran a gun shop out of his trunk.  If you wanted a firearm, he could get it for you at a good price and best of all, no registration required  

        •  I hope that cop got caught--what he was doing (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Amber6541, Laconic Lib, SoCalSal

          was illegal, and he probably supplied more than a few criminals with firearms. Despicable conduct for a police officer.

          And yet here in KY, I know of more than one "upstanding" member of their community who engages in "gun trading" as a secondary form of income. They go to the flea markets, gun shows, and stock sales and do their thing--who knows how many illegal gun sales occur in this state due to this kind of thing.

      •  The same way teens (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Amber6541, tonyahky, Laconic Lib

        get cigarettes, beer and liquor. Either some irresponsible "person of legal age" (I won't use the word adult) buys them for them or they get false ID and the clerks don't bother to check closely.

        "I'm totally pro-choice in the matter of abortion. But of course I'm also so radically pro-life that I think every person from birth onward must have full and affordable access to healthcare." - Gail Collins

        by gritsngumbo on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:24:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Silly? (12+ / 0-)

      Uh, try telling that to a Mom who has to bury two children this year.

      Was Adam Lanza a criminal or a gang banger? Oh, wait. He's white, so he's mentally ill. That's how the script ususally goes. The criminal gang bangers are black, brown or occasionally of Asian ancestry.

      Yeah, right. Yet, countries that have fewer guns have far fewer problems.


    •  No one is talking about a panacea (10+ / 0-)

      "Let's have that discussion about gun crime violence and murder, but it better include a whole lot more than silly ineffective gun control laws."

      Not to mention those 'silly ineffective' murder laws, which aren't working at all. Because if they worked, there wouldn't be these murders.


      I'm pretty good at knocking down strawmen, too. Between  you and I, we could kick some serious strawman ass!

      No one is talking about eliminating crime, gun crime or otherwise. And while the bound-and-determined criminals can usually find a way to do what they want, the world is full of crime committed in the second degree, facilitated by a firearm that just happened to be there. Ask Jevon Belcher's girlfriend about that.

    •  The guns were, except for one, (5+ / 0-)

      legally owned by the shooter's mother. The Bushmaster used in the shooting was banned in CT.
      We need to talk about another assault weapons ban, and a serious one, not the BS one passed by Clinton in the 1990s.
      We could also talk about ending the drug war, which would go a long to reducing criminal activity for gangs.

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:59:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Having grown up in a mid-sized Inner City... (9+ / 0-)

      ...a significant root cause of Urban weapon violence is economic. Always has been.

      If we are going to underfund Urban schools, accept significantly higher unemployment in "the wrong neighborhoods", etc. we must expect that some "entrepreneurial energy" is going to roughly follow basic Econ101 and explore opportunities to "maximize income and profit with minimal barriers of entry". That is the underground economy, and with no official, legally enforceable system to "regulate commerce", the various players emulate both classic Gangsters and contemporary Banksters and forcefully assert their right to "regulate themselves."

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:05:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  WTF? (8+ / 0-)
    There are many gun enthusiasts in this area, residents said.

    When some people who live near the elementary school heard the shots fired by Mr. Lanza on Friday, they said they were not surprised.

    “I really didn’t think anything of it,” said a resident, Ray Rinaldi. “You hear gun shots around here all the time.”
    •  it's a rural community (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skohayes, Van Buren, Stude Dude

      and hunters practice on fake deer in their back yard.

      Well, sometimes real deer (rats on hooves, to us).

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:36:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd have thought (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Amber6541, Laconic Lib

        there would be town ordinance, especially around the elementary school - No guns to be fired here by order of....

      •  I live in a rural area, and no one (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laconic Lib, SoCalSal

        practices deer hunting in residential neighborhoods, even those who live on large lots.  Ranches, probably, but nowhere near the homes of others, public trails, etc.  Our county has a shooting range for that purpose.

        •  can't say it's common (0+ / 0-)

          and that guns go off every night. Don't want to give that impression. Polling sounds are usually fireworks left over from July.

          Just happens from time to time, and presumably, the shooter gets in trouble.

          What people do on their own property is usually bow and arrow practice.

          But there are large tracts of land, and there is a hunting season.  hearing an occasional gun go off is not unknown.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:45:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  popping sounds n/t (0+ / 0-)

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:46:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Have a question for you. (0+ / 0-)

            How large is a large tract of land?  Large enough to contain bullets fired from rifles if fired from interior portions of the "large tract of land?"  Any restrictions on distance from a residence?

            Hunting is a very big deal here, socially and economically.  It is very well regulated.

            •  ... (0+ / 0-)
              People in the rural, hilly areas around Newtown, Conn., are used to gunfire. In one woodsy stretch, southeast of downtown, the Pequot Fish and Game Club and the Fairfield County Fish and Game Protective Association, where members can fish in ponds and hunt pheasant, lie within a mile of each other, and people who live nearby generally call them good neighbors.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 05:23:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  By quoting only the opening paragraph (0+ / 0-)

                of an article that focuses on the growing problem of unrestricted gun use in the Newtown area, you have completely misrepresented the situation in the town and surrounding areas.

                Per the article, this community pre-massacre was trying to grapple with multiple serious problems they have with irresponsible gun owners. Shooters are firing weapons in close proximity to occupied residences.  One woman says current law allows shooting within 20 ft of her house. Shooters are hitting propane tanks because it's fun to see them explode. Completely unregulated shooting ranges abound, and people are firing at targets that are manufactured to explode, etc.

                •  nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                  I am not misrepresenting anything. It was a great article in its entirety (which i encourage people to read), but we don't post whole articles.

                  "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                  by Greg Dworkin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 02:44:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I did not suggest you should quote (0+ / 0-)

                    the whole article, but the paragraph you did quote is a misrepresentation of the article.  Irresponsible and unregulated shooters are a problem in this community.  Period.

                    I live outside a rural town.  Most people here have guns.  Hunting is a big deal.  The county has a public shooting range.  There is not a culture of irresponsible gun use except among wayward teenagers, which is true everywhere I have lived.  

                    You've reacted with unwarranted hostility to every comment I have ever made in response to what you've posted.  YOUR issue.

                •  and note this whole subtext is based on (0+ / 0-)

                  another poster's disbelief you could hear gunshots. Yes, the article suggests you can. Which is what i said.

                  What you read into it beyond that is your issue.

                  "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                  by Greg Dworkin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 02:55:04 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Lennon's Christmas song would be appropriate (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    now. I don't know how to embed it.

  •  Just flew in from redstate (12+ / 0-)

    and boy, are my arms tired.

    Fat Jerry Nadler Enters The Gun Control Debate
    The pustulent Jerry Nadler, also known as “the alimentary canal of the Congress”, wasted no time announcing the intention of the Democrat party to make the Newton, (sic) Connecticut mass murders a political football.
    Here we go again. Nadler,proof positive FORKS are a lethal weapon. Jerry,if YOU and the REST of the liberals would not have mandated that the criminally insane could NOT be institutionalized for THEIR safety as much as the general public's, and if you and your ilk would spend as much time trying to get a handle on the KNOWN whackjobs running around as you do trying to disarm LAW ABIDING citizens,maybe some of these nutjobs would NOT be able to carry out their intentions.
    I thought Reagan did that?
    It is human filth like Nadler that have degraded our society to where these type of events will become more common. Kids raised on Ritalin and then fed anti-depressants while becoming desensitized to blowing humans apart in video games. Every kid should be required to blow the brains out of a bunny rabbit, skin it, pulls out its guts, cook it and eat it. Make them experience real killing and then they may have more respect for life.

    As for Nadler being a pig, it looks like he is on the banned list at Hometown Buffet right below Chris Christie.

    Dear Sir:

    We appreciate your interest in the advertised position for Parenting Class Instructor. However, we regret to inform you that your qualifications do not meet our present needs.


    Our nation once shared a God who we all prayed to. Increasingly, the loudest voices in the nation are hostile to that God and those who worship him. The conversation at times of evil is immediately drown out by political opportunists seeking to drive their agenda.
    Huckabee put you up to that one, didn't he?

    In the thread, a war ensues, not over guns, but over atheism vs. religion.

    And, perhaps inevitably:

    we rejected everything that was right about America. We rejected the God-fearing, hard working, family-oriented social mores of the older generation as being at best hopelessly anachronistic, and at worst outright oppressive.  We traded God for secularism.  We traded love for sex.  We traded sobriety for drugs.  We traded order for chaos.  We traded discipline for indulgence.  We traded modesty for promiscuity.  We traded parents for absentee fathers and baby mommas.  We traded children for abortions.  We traded moderation for excess.  We traded home life for careers.  We traded role models for celebrities. We traded solidarity for grievances.  We traded music for death rock and gangsta rap.  We traded wholesome entertainment for violent and pornographic movies, television, and videogames.  We traded a culture which had made us great for a self-indulgent counterculture designed to destroy.  We traded everything that was right and good and holy for everything that is wrong and evil and depraved.
    Oh, I see. We never should have rejected the Cleavers as a family model, and now we're paying for it. How far from that to Fred Phelps?

    And here they go, exploiting tragedy to advance their political agenda:

    We have taught two generations of Americans that the murder of a child is normal. If a woman is pregnant, and doesn’t want to be, then it is just fine to end that pregnancy, with no thought given to the life that is extinguished.  Roughly 3,400 hundred abortions occur in the United States each and every day, and very few of us give it a single thought.
    Yeah, we need to have a national conversation.

    But how do you have it with these people?

  •  I love you for this (19+ / 0-)
    By the way, anyone who thinks that owning a gun is somehow upholding their freedom or protecting them from government tyranny is an idiot. That is all.
    Nice job, sir!
  •  Via Digby (6+ / 0-)

    recipients of NRA PAC money:

    Call them up and tell them what you want.

  •  My tweet to Douthat (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, tcdup, DRo, TheDuckManCometh

    @DouthatNYT  Douthat: such is his faith that he even doubts God before he doubts the Second Amendment. What a sad excuse of a man.

  •  2 questions, How do you embed youtube (0+ / 0-)

    vids. I've tried copying to clipboard but it doesn't work.

    How do you place mp3's from your computer to diaries?

  •  Stupidest (usually conservative) argument ever (3+ / 0-)

    "X causes 10 times more harm than Y, so we should do nothing at all about Y".

    Car accidents kill many more children than accidental poisoning, so there's no point in even trying to keep poisons away from children.

    Whuh? Soulds on the surface like it makes sense, unless you thin for 2 seconds. Just like "you can't cheat an honest man".

    Don't let millionaires steal Social Security.
    I said, "Don't let millionaires steal Social Security!"

    by Leo in NJ on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:39:32 AM PST

  •  Nice pundit roundup. I completely agree (0+ / 0-)

    with the selection, the characterization of Douthat as a useless trrlevant word spinner (kept at the times for 'balance' and perhaps a sense of irony) and the description of those STUPID enough to think that owning a gun protects them from anything except a small chance of a personal attack. . . and said protection btw being less than the possibility they'll use the gun to kill themsleves one day when they feel despondant.

    Anyone see the December Atlantic issue and the idiotic article contained therein?

    An empty head is not really empty; it is stuffed with rubbish. Hence the difficulty of forcing anything into an empty head. -- Eric Hoffer

    by MichiganChet on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:48:11 AM PST

  •  as a native NYCer I found this comforting (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skohayes, wintergreen8694

    The Empire State Building was lit up in blue & gold on Saturday night in honor of the victims of Friday’s school shooting in Connecticut.
    school colors.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:48:38 AM PST

  •  You couldn't resist, huh? (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    TFinSF, One Opinion
    Hidden by:
    Outraged Mom
    "Washington Post Editorial Board is rarely seen as being left"
    I mean, you could have just posted the link without having to throw in the spiteful remark about WaPo  -- but then, this wouidn't be DailyKos without throwing some red meat to the Greek chorus that is determined to prove that NPR, the NYT and WaPO are really arch-conservative institutions.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you:

    by FischFry on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:49:20 AM PST

  •  The irony (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tb mare, One Opinion

    of the NRA and their cohorts in the "We Love Guns" cabal talking about "mental health" is so thick that you can cut it with a knife.

    As I sail against the tide, for what I believe is right.

    by Toes on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:04:11 AM PST

  •  There is such a social stigma attached to mental (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Van Buren, TheDuckManCometh

    health problems which inhibits many people from even beginning to seek help in this area.  Typically, people don't hesitate to see a doctor about getting antibiotics for a bacterial infection like a urinary tract infection or strep throat, and there are legions who go overboard and demand antibiotics for such things as a cold or the flu (which antibiotics don't mitigate), but many of these same people would never admit they might need medical help for what a qualified doctor would diagnose as a mental health issue.  The other big problem is access, both economic and simple availability, to quality mental health care.  IMHO anyone who seeks to kill another human being has some type of mental health issue.  

    There is so much great work being done today by many brain scientists to understand the human brain and its functions and dis-functions, it is truly amazing and hopeful.  Charlie Rose had a great series on the human brain on his show that is worth seeking out on PBS, with the worlds best brain scientists represented quite wonderfully and accessibly.  However, there is much road to travel and much needs to be done to make this information available to the public at large to educate us all about what could arguably be the most important organ in the human body, the brain and how to best exercise it, take care of it, and seek medical help for it when it is truly necessary.  Additionally, changing the perception of mental health issues from perpetually "crazy" and something to be ashamed of, to an illness that can be treated and, if not cured outright, be managed like diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, or low testosterone, could go a long way in making the tragedies of Columbine, Aurora, and Newton, Connecticut a thing of the sorrowful past.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy -7.8., -6.6

    by helpImdrowning on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:04:14 AM PST

  •  Second Amendment (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wintergreen8694, srelar, Laconic Lib

    Does the Second Amendment say anything about the "right to buy ammunition?"

    There are too many guns out there to retrieve them all so we have no choice but to let them sit.

    But ammunition?  Why can't the government regulate the sale of ammunition? In order to buy it you have to apply for a permit with adequate time for authorities to check your background.  Then you could only buy a specified amount with a nod to what is needed for a successful deer hunting season, etc. Ammunition for those automatic military style weapons would not be available to anyone but the police and military.

    And you have to buy it from a government agency. No more purchases over the Internet. No more availability at your local Walmart.

    Sure there would be a black market.  But you would have to work some to find that black market.  And the fines and sentencing for selling it under the table could be onerous. It would take many years to finally use up the amount of ammunition already out there but by God we are getting nowhere trying to stop the easy ownership of guns.

    It's worth a try.

  •  As others have said more than (2+ / 0-)

    once this year, Gail Collins is getting it done.

    Smart and persuasive is a great combination in a columnist.  

    Hat's off to Ms. Collins.

  •  Will someone please tell me the easy way to (0+ / 0-)

    embed youtube videos? Copy to clipboaed does not work. Or point me to a diary that explains it simply.

    •  lay out the you tube page as in the picture above (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      use one that allows sharing (not all do)
      hit share
      hit embed

      practice it!

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:41:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Are right wingers suffering from MPD? (5+ / 0-)

    A few things:

    I had an argument with another FB user who passionately argued that the 2nd Amendment protected his right to own Firearms of Mass Destruction. He feels he has every right to own weaponry equal to/surpassing the police and the military - reasoning the goverment cannot be trusted.  This man, on another day, was arguing that the police and the military were akin to super-heroes.  So... one day the cops and military are figures to be revered and worshipped, the next day they are tools of the govt. coming to take away his guns?

    Are right wingers afflicted with multiple personality disorder? Their positions on so many isssues are totally contradictory. Protecting fetuses is their number one priority BUT what about the trade off of accepting sensible gun regulation to save the lives of innocent kids?

    What doesn't the 2nd Amendment cover? Scalia claims it even protects the right to own hand carried rocket launchers. What about nukes? When nukes are portable, will the surivalist nuts be covered by the 2nd Amendment if they stockpile nukes?

    Other countries (such as Canada) do have the same level of gun ownership, but not the same level of gun violence. Canada is very similar to the US in so many ways. They play the same video games, see the same movies, have basically the same ethnic blends, and don't have school prayer. Rampage shootings (and gun related homicide) are quite rare.

    American culture is one of paranoia.How much of this violence stems from racism?  The one difference between us and Canada is that they don't have right wing media spewing hate 24/7/365. Half of Americans are completely bamboozled by right wing "commentators" like Rush, Glen Beck, etc. Add to that "Faux News" & we have a very big problem on our hands. Much more tricky than gun ownership bc of the 1st Amendment issues. That's the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. Their influence, IMHO, goes way beyond the destructive force of yelling fire in a theater.

  •  Never again (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wintergreen8694, Laconic Lib

    The ultimate tragedy of so many young lives cut short in an unspeakable manner must not be left to be forgotten in vain. This incident was wholly preventable, and these children could still be alive today were it not for the backwards and vulgar lack of any meaningful regulation of guns that are made for military-style execution killings. America has been held hostage by the hacks of the NRA for far too long. It is sickening that it had to take the mass murder of first graders for lawmakers and the president to assert their role in protecting citizens, and even then we may not achieve anything of substance thanks to conservative intransigence. The United States stands out as an uncivilized and deadly hotbed of gun violence when compared to other industrialized nations. This must change.  -  progressive

  •  Mental health, the buzz words that will draw down (4+ / 0-)

    the venom of the horror of more deaths.  As soon as the brother said his brother had "mental health" issues the media immediately used that buffering "cause royal" to distract.  It seems to me that anyone now and in the past that commits this type of crime or any crime for that matter has a few issues in their mental health.  Fox and the right wing will focus on the "mental health" meme while running out and stockpiling guns and ammo to "protect themselves" against the "mentally unhealthy" that have been living next door to them ever since their Conservative Republican God Ronald Reagan was in office and decided the best treatments were to "mainstream" the mentally ill and close the psychiatric facilities.

    Anything to avoid accepting responsibility of the actions of their precious guns.  Guns that are more precious and deadly than their God.

  •  How many dead (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tb mare, Laconic Lib

    Per year is an acceptable level?

    If 3000 are killed, are we gonna assume that our laws are adequate?


    And ask, if it's 2000, how many laws would need to chance to reduce out current gun homicide rate by 7000 a year?

    What about the 20,000 kids injured in 2008 alone, by guns?

    How low does that need to go, before we're happy?

    Maybe 2000 dead and 2000 injured kids?

    Everyone happy with those numbers?

  •  Kristof should have mentioned the poor shthemselve (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laconic Lib

    I am surprised kristof didn't talke about poor people intentionally maiming themselves with firearms so they can receive disability payments.  At least Douthat is open about his douchebaggery

  •  Douthat (0+ / 0-)

    Not everyone needs to be screaming.

    "which likewise seeks to establish God’s goodness through a narrative rather than an argument".

    We might also change the dialog through meaningful narrative. I thought it was a pretty good article.

  •  To steal from Golda Mier, we need start by loving (0+ / 0-)

    our children more than our guns.  

  •  The Slippery Slope Argument Has To Be Torn Down (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laconic Lib

    Assault weapon bans and regulating high volume clips will not take away people rights to own other guns. Again, like so many ways to take on the right wing, it is awinning issue that will further make the right wing look like unrasonable assholes. Use the issue.

  •  Oh yes you can (0+ / 0-)

    "we can’t just say “Oh God,” and “Oh God".
    IMO there is too much crying to an
    entity that in all likelyhood doesn't exist instead of biting the bullet and
    handling an existing
    gun problem that is
    Does any one wish 2 venture a non snarky opinion as 2
    why a single woman
    needed four guns 2
    protect herself
    Did her training teach her how to use all four guns simultaneously?

  •  not a good sign (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheDuckManCometh, Minnesota Deb

    The wife and I live a town over from Sandy Hook and I have to say the area is devastated.  It's like Christmas has left.  Seeing this poor priest go on TV and break down every day says it all.  Can't even use religion as a comfort, when there is not reason in the world for this horror.

    All over news radio here, the callers will make a point in saying (and I mean nearly all of them) that changing gun laws won't do anything.  It's amazing.  Round up teens with mental issues and lock them away seems to be the most common solution.  Radio DJs and callers seem to know that there MUST have been signs that this boy would do this.  I would respond that if we locked up all moody or goth teens there'd be none left.  No parent -- and I'm sure it's true with him -- could ever imagine their son could do this.

    But it's not guns, according to all calling in.  Including so-called former cops and first-responders from other areas.  Metal detectors or armed guards, they say.  Except it took seconds for this guy to kill these kids.  Would a beeping Medal detector really stop a man who forced his way into the school anyway matter.  Would one armed guard be enough to stop a man this determined to kill and the weapons to do it quickly?

    I've had a number of fights on Facebook over the same thing. My argument is not that radical.  Just stop selling assault, automatic and semi-autos now.  Let people keep what they have.  Let people surrender they weapons they have now if they want.  Let people keep a shotgun at home if that makes them feel safer, and all the hunting rifles, crossbows, compound bows they want.... as long as it's not a military-style weapon that holds lots of rounds.

    And I get comments about how I'm a liberal minded person.  Why do laws banning assault rifles and glocks become a political thing?

    This may not be the biggest mass murder in the country but it's the worst.  Little kids mowed down in seconds by guns owned by the killer's gun-nut mother (who is dead now too).  Change will not happen as long as big money is put into the media to make sure everyone on the right has these beliefs about guns.

  •  Why be reticent about assigning political blame (0+ / 0-)

    for this. It was the Republican Party/IRA nexus.

    (The Mother, Nancy Lanza, was full metal wingnut. An ammo dump in her house, home schooling for her mentally disturbed child)

  •  Fabiola Santiago is seriously deluded. (0+ / 0-)

    Only a few have wealth; the same with democracy as it is increasingly portioned out to the highest bidders. Opportunity? A child born in a poor family in America is very likely to stay poor. Our social mobility is pathetic when we are compared to other industrialized countries. What kind of society does nothing?? A society that is increasingly broken, corrupted by elites, and running on empty.

  •  Second Amendment must be repealed (0+ / 0-)

    The Amendment might have seemed clear to the tipsy Founding Fathers who concocted it but now it has become so distorted that it is interpreted as meaning the exact opposite of what the writers intended.  Originally the 2nd Amendment justified State sanctioned official militias.  Now unfortunately evil judges have twisted it to mean terrorist gangs of right wingers can arm themselves to fight the Constitutional democracy.  

  •  The Republican Party and the NRA murdered these (0+ / 0-)

    kids and teachers......

    The one guy pulled the trigger.....His mom supplied the weapons.....

    but the discourse and the NRA sponsered gun laws put the attitude in their heads and the guns in their house.....

    Deficits...!?!?  Obamacare...!?!?  Unemployment...!?!??!


  •  i thought about a Second Amendment Martyr Memorial (0+ / 0-)

    but the required acreage alone may prevent it ever being in one place. so maybe each community could have one.

    What Fresh Hell is This? -- Dorothy Parker

    by chazz509 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 03:02:31 PM PST

  •  Just saying (0+ / 0-)

    The gun lobby should water the tree of liberty with their own blood occasionally, instead of using ours all the time. It would be ever so refreshing.

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