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Traffic moves past a memorial of 27 small U.S. flags, for victims of a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, along Interstate 84 in Newtown, Connecticut December 17, 2012. U.S. President Barack Obama on Sunday demanded changes in the way the country dealt with gun violence, though he avoided the use of the word "gun" itself in consoling the Connecticut town shattered by the massacre of 20 young schoolchildren. REUTERS/Joshua Lott
Traffic moves past a memorial of 27 small U.S. flags, for victims of a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, along Interstate 84 in Newtown, Connecticut.
First up, a Huffington Post poll by YouGov:
The new HuffPost/YouGov survey found that 50 percent of Americans say gun laws should be made more strict than they are now, compared to 43 percent who said that they should remain the same (29 percent) or be made less strict (14 percent). The poll also found support for banning semi-automatic weapons (51 percent to 33 percent) as well as magazine clips holding more than 10 rounds (54 percent to 32 percent).
Then there's an ABC Poll:
More than half of Americans say the school shootings in Newtown, Connecticut, reflect broader problems in society rather than an isolated act of a troubled person – more than after other recent shooting incidents, suggesting the possibility of a new national dialogue on violent crime.

This ABC News/Washington Post poll also finds that 54 percent of Americans favor stricter gun control laws in general, numerically a five-year high, albeit not significantly different than in recent years. Fifty-nine percent support a ban specifically on high-capacity ammunition clips, a step on which partisan and ideological gaps narrow substantially and “strong” support peaks.

There's no valid reason for high-capacity magazines. You certainly don't need them for hunting if you learn how to fucking aim. You don't need them for home defense, unless you're fighting off cartel drug lords or the zombie apocalypse. And neither of those are worth the lives of 20 first graders.

That's why West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, one of the strongest friends of the NRA, is ceding this ground.

"I just came with my family from deer hunting," Manchin said on MSNBC’s "Morning Joe." "I’ve never had more than three shells in a clip. Sometimes you don’t get more than one shot anyway at a deer. It’s common sense. It’s time to move beyond rhetoric. We need to sit down and have a common sense discussion and move in a reasonable way."

Originally posted to kos on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:24 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I hope we can make headway on this problem . (15+ / 0-)

    Its way overdue .

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:27:39 AM PST

  •  TBagger group blames Teachers, Unions and Sex for (10+ / 0-)

    the shooting in Newtown

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:28:40 AM PST

  •  Even in a zombie apocalypse... (6+ / 0-)

    Guns just attract the walkers!

    Besides, they're slow for the most part.  Plenty of time to reload.


    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:30:22 AM PST

  •  not feeling post-sandy hook just yet (3+ / 0-)

    A little early to call us it "post" just yet, don't you think?

    Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

    by 51percent on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:33:41 AM PST

  •  this is no change (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lyvwyr101, gramofsam1

    support is always around 50%, actually around 52% and previous shootings only have a 2% effect in increased approval

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:34:23 AM PST

  •  Colt Peacemaker would take 30 seconds to reload (0+ / 0-)

    You had to eject each cartridge one at a time, and then put the new live round in one cartridge at a time.  That would give someone a chance to run away or take the shooter down.

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:34:51 AM PST

  •  Anyone who needs more than 5 rounds to hunt... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Churchill, MRobDC, nolagrl, leonard145b

    shouldn't be hunting.

    You get one shot at a deer, then Bambi is gone.  You don't keep squeezing off shots after that.

    Home defense?  A revolver with 6 rounds will work just as good as an AR-15.

    Tax and Spend I can understand. I can even understand Borrow and Spend. But Borrow and give Billionaires tax cuts? That I have a problem with.

    by LiberalCanuck on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:34:57 AM PST

    •  6 shot handgun should be enough ammo for anyone (0+ / 0-)

      80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

      by Churchill on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:36:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If somebody breaks into your home (5+ / 0-)

        your best bet is to barricade yourself in a room if possible and not confront. Most home invasions are burglaries, they don't want to kill you if they don't have to. Jewelry and electronics are replaceable. Your life isn't.

        •  MrobDc..I have to disagree with that. (0+ / 0-)

          If someone breaks into our home we are suppose to hide in a room and hope the bad guys are not armed?  That isn't very realistic.....three children in two different bedrooms and two adults in another?    At the risk of being banned, if someone breaks into our home I'll defend myself and my family with whatever is at my disposal---which includes a shotgun with five non-lethal rounds.

          No, I don't own an AR15 or any kind of assault weapon and do think these evil things should be banned along with magazines over 10 rounds.  But I do reserve the right to own a firearm for personal protection in my home.  

          The idea that we should cower in a room while someone breaks into our home is just not acceptable.

          "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

          by sfcouple on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:15:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  neighbor across they alley was murdered (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            They beat the guy and fractured his skull, he dies 3 days later.  I had to fish around in my attic and get my guns. I forgot where I put them, a .22 rimfire rifle and a small pump scattergun.  I got non-lethal birdshot.

            I haven't fired them in 15 years, but I got them in my bedroom. I live alone.  I was broken in twice 3 years ago, they got my computer.  I didn't get my guns out of the attic then.

            80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

            by Churchill on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 08:17:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  But if you don't have an assault rifle, how can (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      You fight against the gubmint if it needs to be overthrown? Remember, Obama is going to come and put you in a FEMA concentration camp!

      And haven't you seen 'Red Dawn'? Rednecks with guns are our last defense against an invasion!

      "Marco Rubio es un pañuelo Rosa!" - Montgomery Burns

      by Fordmandalay on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:44:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  10 round magazine is CA limit (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      California set 10 rounds and that's practical. Millions of pistols are already out there with 10 rounds. Semiautomatic rifles are a bad choice for deer hunting but lots of ranchers use them as "varmint guns" i.e. coyotes attacking sheep are running around and are hard to hit.


    •  pump shotguns are best (0+ / 0-)

      for home defense.
      The sound of a round being chambered scares most people into running.

      Then you fire at the noise.  The report is so loud, unless you're used to it, one round is all you need.

      Usually the intruder is gone, hurt or many little pieces.  The noise will have the neighbors calling for police.

      And they are not that easy for children operate.

      The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage laborers. - The Communist Manifesto

      by nolagrl on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:06:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nice thing about shotguns is they don't require (0+ / 0-)

        great aim.

        People radically underestimate how hard it is to aim a pistol, especially if you don't generally point it at living, breathing human beings.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:24:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  But listen to the arguments being made (0+ / 0-)

      here and in other postings.

      The assault rifle ban is a no brainier as far as I'm concerned.  But its what happens next that is the really the only reason that it hasn't already been implemented yet.

      If a kid is going to bring a gun to school, its going to be what he has access to.  A revolver with 6 bullets? Bring 2 revolvers.  Reload one after its fired 6 shots.  Anyone tries to stop you? Shoot em with the loaded one.

      Do you then ban revolvers?  And rifles?  What about .22s?  

      The assault weapons ban would happen tomorrow if there was some assurances that there was something about these particular weapons that made them off limits to the general public.  But I find that isn't an argument that a lot of posters are making.  To them, a gun is a gun, is a gun.  And it is these folks that have helped to place the NRA on a pedestal as the only protector of gun rights in this country.

  •  If no now, then when? If not us, then who? (5+ / 0-)

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:35:43 AM PST

  •  We need to take advantage of the current (8+ / 0-)

    change in opinion.  Please do what you can today to further a gun control agenda.  I have lobbied my professional organization and joined some groups, signed petitions and am talking to co-workers, friends, and family about getting involved.

    Now is the time to gain traction.

    20 innocent children were slaughtered. The gun lobby and NRA bear responsibility and it is time to fight back!

    by the dogs sockpuppet on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:36:04 AM PST

  •  spraying vs aiming & shooting 1 bullet @ a time (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dinotrac, leonard145b

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:37:02 AM PST

  •  NRA will stick to old methods, just wait it out (5+ / 0-)

    They'll fight a delaying action (now is not the time to make this a political issue, let's not act in haste blah blah) and just wait until people's memories fade and the anger dissipates. They know time is on their side.

    Hey, anyone remember that 'Columbine' thing? Remember all the gun control action after that? Nah me neither.

    "Marco Rubio es un pañuelo Rosa!" - Montgomery Burns

    by Fordmandalay on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:38:15 AM PST

    •  NRA Gift Boxes ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      ... the gift that keeps on grieving, even after you bury them.

      My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.—Carl Schurz
      Give 'em hell, Barry—Me

      by KingBolete on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:51:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Shouldn't the NRA use their same tactics... (0+ / 0-)

      to defend Iran and prevent an international conflict?  I mean, nuclear bombs don't kill people, terrorist kill people.  If they didn't have a nuclear bomb, they would just use airplanes or box knives or car bombs...

      No need to fight over seas with their brilliant defense.

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:58:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nuclear terrorism isn't real BTW (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Buckeye Nut Schell

        If Iran had a nuclear weapon and used it as a nuclear weapon, that would be a nuclear war. There isn't a terrorist organization on earth with the capacity to deliver a conventional nuclear weapon.

        And dirty bombs containing radioactive material are only a danger for people in the immediate vicinity of the blast radius. Condi's mushroom cloud warning was just a fancy bit of political propaganda with no basis in reality.

        •  I realize this... (0+ / 0-)

          But it does not appear that the NRA members do.  These are the same people that want to fight in Iran because Iran supposedly is trying to build a nuclear capability but their arguments are not consistent.  

          If a gun does not kill people because it is an inanimate object then neither does a nuclear bomb.  If a killer could have just as easily used a knife or a club then a terrorist could have just as easily used an airplane of a car bomb.

          If inanimate objects are not to blame in mass killings then where do we draw the line?  I think the NRA should answer that question.

          "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

          by Buckeye Nut Schell on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:47:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Buckeye Nut Schell

            The constitution says the right to keep and bare arms. Well nuclear arms are arms. Do I have a constitutional right to a nuke if I have the means of producing or procuring one? I somehow doubt that defense would fly in court if I start poking around on how to get hold of some weapons grade uranium to build Baby Boy 2 in my garage

  •  Manchin (11+ / 0-)

    taped another interview with Andrea Mitchell.  I am heartened by this because I doubt there is pressure for him to speak out.  But he still is.  

    They also mentioned on the show that it will be hard for Diane Fenstein and Manchin to agree on a bill, so that is why it is likely that nothing will happen.

    I suggest they start small.  With ban on the high capacity magazines.  

    It doesn't all have to happen at once.

  •  We really need to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DRo, leonard145b

    pressure the WH to do the right thing - believe me, they will be getting plenty of pressure from the other side.

  •  Regulation of high capacity magazines (5+ / 0-)

    is likely to be achievable and may make some difference; probably a better focus than an assault weapons ban that has no real effect.

    •  It would be a start (3+ / 0-)

      and I would dare anyone (Republican, Democrat, idiot, etc) to oppose such a measure.

      I think there would be more to be done.  But it would be  a start.

      Like kos said this morning.  Control wouldn't have stopped the shooting, but if he didn't have access to these particular weapons it would have taken him longer to get into the building and to kill people.  Those first responders would have gotten there before he got to 26 people.

      We owe it those babies with the sweet smiles and trusting hearts.

  •  The Sandy Hook Gun Safety Act (9+ / 0-)

    Since the only safe gun, is no gun, a ban on all civilian possession of semi-automatic weapons of any type.  Waivers may be considered under certain, extremely tightly regulated circumstances.

    Mental health screenings and background checks for all gun owners and possibly household members. Longer waiting periods and extensive background checks upon purchase of new guns.

    A limit on the number of firearms one person can own. We can discuss what what would be a reasonable limit.

    New taxes, fees, licenses on guns, ammo and accessories to pay for it.

    We can discuss lengths of grace periods for turning in illegal weapons and those in excess of mandated limits as well as compliance with mental health screenings. We can also discuss nature of penalties for non-compliance and enforcement entities.

    What else?

    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: []

    by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:44:04 AM PST

  •  We have to do this for Emily and the other kids & (4+ / 0-)

    teachers that were murdered.

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:46:01 AM PST

  •  I wonder if Lanza was a 24/7 video game guy? (0+ / 0-)

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:46:48 AM PST

  •  Those poll numbers are terrible (3+ / 0-)

    This country really is hopeless on this issue.

    50 percent?  60?  Are you kidding me?  Three days after 20 first-graders are gunned down?

    Next month the numbers will be under 50.

    I hope Obama and the party show some fight on it again, but really, nothing will pass, not with the House as it is.  

    The other side will look venal and stupid and evil -- like they always do.  They won't be afraid because their districts have been gerrymandered so deeply they can really never lose; look at this past election.

    And half or more of the country will forget until the next time.

  •  It's Hollywood's fault... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    So sayeth the Tea Partiers.  If it weren't for the violence in the movies, TV, and video games, the US wouldn't have these problems of mass shootings.  Oh brother!

    There is no hell on earth appropriate enough for those who would promote the killing of another person, in the name of a god.

    by HarryParatestis on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:48:45 AM PST

  •  Here's a great overview of guns and health (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    posted today at Minnesota's independent journalism outlet.

  •  This shooting has made one thing crystal clear (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doraphasia, dinotrac, Debby

    As the President said - our children depend on us to keep them safe. We have been failing them. It is time to lose our fear of the big bad NRA, and do what is right for the children who depend on us.

    "The only thing we have to fear - is fear itself." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by orrg1 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:51:21 AM PST

  •  As I write, a local elementary school here, (4+ / 0-)

    in San Antonio, Tx, is in lock-down with SWAT on the scene.
    A phone call was received with a, "threat." I'm not sure what the threat was, yet.
    Point is, Newtown will probably and sadly not be the last.
    Tell the poll's to get us the hell out of this valley of death as fast as possible.

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:51:26 AM PST

    •  tuesday, the shooting in the oregon mall. (4+ / 0-)

      friday, 20 children dead.

      saturday, 47 guns found inthe home of a Indiana man who threatened to kill as many as he could at the nearby elementary school.

      also saturday, a man fired 50 rounds in the middle of mall in newport beach.

      also in saturday, a gunman shot and killed two police in front of a topeka grocery store.  motive not known.

      yesterday, a man opened fire in an san antonio theatre parking lot, sending bullets into a near-by restaurant.

      right now, in pennsylvania, police are negotiating with an armed, discharged mental in-patient, who is armed and in a field next to a wal-mart.

      that's just SOME of the results on the first 1 or 2 pages of a google news search on the term 'gunman'.

      and i'm not even touching on what might have happened this weekend in oakland, california, or los angeles or chicago or philadelphia or detroit or  or  or  or  or  or

      November 6, 2012: United citizens = 1, Citizens United = 0 (-9.75 / -9.05)

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:43:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If I see another facebook image macro about how (3+ / 0-)

    mental health is the real problem and we should ignore gun control, I might just lose it. We can address two things at the same time!

    •  emphasising mental health ito the exclusion of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ConfusedSkyes, gramofsam1

      gun control completely ignores the incredible problem if guns in urban centers, in inner cities.

      there's a huge problem there.  about fifteen years ago, an ER doctor at a hospital in oakland ca.  told me that there are more gunshot wounds treated in ANY inner city hospital on a ANY given saturday night than in the whole  of europe in one year.

      this doctor told me that a thirteen year old once came in on a gurney, with a severe gun wound somewhere on his torso.  he stitched him up and the kid survived.  a year later a 14 year old came in on a gurney, wounded, and this doctor recognised his own handiwork, stitched him up, he survived.  the third time the kid came in as a 16 year old, he died on the table.

      i mean seriously, 3 FUCKING times???

      this doctor was in complete despair that anything could ever change. and i don't think he would be recommending therapy to the gangs of oakland.

      gun control is indispensable.

      November 6, 2012: United citizens = 1, Citizens United = 0 (-9.75 / -9.05)

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:52:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I haven't seen that one, but I have seen one that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      says we can't do anything because evil exists and thems the breaks.  

      Oh, I've also seen the one about how a spoon can be used as a weapon.  'Cause, ya know, spoons and guns are EXACTLY the same thing.

  •  This isn't about hunting. It never has been. (0+ / 0-)

    Gun owners won't tell you what they fear, because it isn't politically correct and they don't believe you have a valid response in any event.

    This "you only need one fucking bullet to hunt" nonsense is not what it's about, and if you read Scalia's opinion in Heller, you'd know that it is not.

    And you bought your auto because it was the lowest price, no bells & whistles, great gas mileage and the cheapest paint color?  Bullshit.  People buy different products for different reasons and once you start telling people what they can or cannot buy...they'll start telling you what you can do with your body and how big your soft drink should be, among other things.

    This was a HORRIFIC tragedy.  And most of us want to know why.  Many of us suspect mental illness, because prescriptions for Zoloft, Luvox, Prozac, Ritalin and Paxil were prescribed to many of the teen and slightly older people who murdered their families in the most gruesome manners imaginable.

    So, yes, a conversation needs to occur on better management of firearms in our society.  But you won't hear from the "other" side...the rational "other side" for a few days.  

    Because you are not ready to listen.

    •  There is a big fucking different between buying (3+ / 0-)

      a green car instead of a blue one and being able to buy a gun that loads 100 rounds instead of 10.

      Rational other side, my ass

      •  Which is exactly why you won't hear much from (0+ / 0-)

        the other 85,000,000 gun owners who aren't members of the NRA.


        •  We were having a conversation here. (0+ / 0-)

          Did you see Old Jack Pine's diary? Why do you say we aren't listening?

          An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

          by Debby on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:47:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry's more of the "royal you". (0+ / 0-)

            Clearly, there are a number of very bright, rational people on this website.  It doesn't hold true for many/most of the other internet sites.  

            That being said, there are a few members here who are no better than the other side.

    •  Zoloft, Luvox, Prozac, Ritalin and Paxil (2+ / 0-)

      Those same prescription drugs are used in other places like Western European countries, but they don't have the kind of gun violence that we see here in the USA. Why? Because they mostly ban modern semi-automatic weapons and handguns.

      The problem is that there are far too many of these weapons on the streets of this country and that simply has to change.

      We need laws here in the USA that are modeled on Western European gun laws that have been shown to be effective. Simply reinstating an assault weapons ban isn't enough in my opinion.

      The only trouble with retirement is...I never get a day off!

      by Mr Robert on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:08:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Britain the Most Violent Country in Europe (0+ / 0-)
        n the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.
        The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:
        The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
        It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
        The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
        It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.
        But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
        In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

        Read more:
        Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

        The article also states:
        Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

        Read more:
        Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

        •  i've lived there, in the country, away from (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          large cities, and in a small town, and i can attest that there are enormous societal problems going on.  i was often frightened.  terrible drug problems where you don't expect to see them.  terrible robberies and burglaries. terrible strife and hatred going on.

          there is a movement toward letting people have handguns there, because it is thought that it would help people fight back, and that people would think twice before surrounding your car and stealing it or its contents. at knifepoint if they thought the owner had a gun, if regular folks had guns.
          sorta the logic of arming teachers.

          November 6, 2012: United citizens = 1, Citizens United = 0 (-9.75 / -9.05)

          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:01:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Are the prescribed as freely in other countries? (0+ / 0-)

        Guns are only part of the problem.
        There are other countries with substantial numbers of guns in the hands of the populace, but murder rates only a tiny fraction of ours.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:28:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Canada is one of the countries (0+ / 0-)

          with substantial numbers of guns and much lower murder rates than ours.
          They also have much more gun regulation than we do.

          •  They also have nationalized medicine, and I'll bet (0+ / 0-)

            it doesn't hand out drugs as freely as many of our doctors.

            There are many differences between Canada and the US, but here is one you're overlooking as you make your comment:

            In spite of all their gun regulation, Canadians have a lot of guns.  Why don't they take those guns and kill each other the way that Americans do?

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:29:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm sure there are several reasons- (0+ / 0-)

              their rate of gun ownership is about one third as high as ours, so fewer guns per capita and as an absolute number.
              See what you think about their gun regulations, wikipedia has a pretty decent summary. Many would enhance safety IMO.

              I don't doubt there are additional factors including the health care system. As far as handing out drugs, don't know the numbers but do know that good diagnosis and properly prescribed and monitored meds for the people who need them are a feature, not a bug.

  •  The military.... (4+ / 0-)

    doesn't allow their sodiers to run around carrying weapons unless its in a combat zone. All weaponry is kept in an armory. Why can't there be a civilian armory where guns are kept until they are needed such as for hunting or target shooting. There would be laws that would not allow anyone to stockpile or build arsenals or carry in public. I say take guns away from everyone including the police. Firefighters and first responders don't carry weapons and they are generally the first ones on the scene. Let's have a national check your weapon day, forever.

  •  Action, not words (0+ / 0-)

    I'll believe people (I prefer a more descriptive term such a*hole, dipst, fkface or the like, but I'll be civil, something these aholes, dipsts and F*kfaces are incapable of understanding) like Manchin the DINO when I see action taken that is logical and rational and will actually prevent the future destruction of our children. The NRA leadership and gun manufacturers have the blood of the innocent on their nice $3000.00 suits. I hope they enjoy the  blood money they make from the murder of children.
    P.S. A majority of Americans want single payer health care. Did it make a difference in the ACA 'debate'? Not much that I can see. Why should this debate be any different.

  •  Any luck calling your Senator (0+ / 0-)

    or Congressperson? It appears that the voice mail boxes are swamped and there's no way to leave a message.

    I've been trying to call Feinstein's office without any luck, but I'll keep trying.

    The only trouble with retirement is...I never get a day off!

    by Mr Robert on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:01:11 AM PST

  •  Is anyone else creeped out (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    by planting American flags for children?   We do that for soldiers,who died for the rest of the citizenry, but kids?!  How... Soviet Union ..... that looks.

    They died because America is self absorbed in gunfighter machismo.  

    They died so Ted  Nugent and his ilk could brandish steel penises and they died so the US arms makers could make money.

    So don't put up American flags.  

    They died for the glory of free market  'Money is god' capitalism.  

    Be honest. Bury them with a dollar sign over their graves.

    The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage laborers. - The Communist Manifesto

    by nolagrl on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:01:20 AM PST

  •  Pump action shotguns (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LinSea, Debby

    Decades ago, when multiple shot shotguns first got invented, the hunting publications had debates over whether it was "fair" to the animals being hunted.  If you can't get 'em with a good shot, where's the sport in it?

    That's a far cry from these automatic rifles.  Hunters are called "sportsmen" which implies some degree of skill and discipline.  Ain't none of that in these kind of rifles.  

    Small children's bodies with a dozen or more bullets in them?  Zero need for that kind of firepower to be loose in the population at large.  

    Hell, the guns used belonged to a woman who was killed with them.  If she thought she was protecting herself with them, she was wrong.

    Dead wrong.

    What do we make of the contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman and craven, feckless politicians who won’t stand up to the N.R.A.? -- Nicholas Kristof, NYT --

    by Land of Enchantment on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:02:24 AM PST

  •  FIRST GRADERS! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crankypatriot, Debby

    Do you remember your first grade experience? "Go, Spot, go!" It was your first job, the very first thing that you were expected to accomplish on your own.

    You were proud, and justly so, at having a real task to accomplish. For the first time in your life, it was not just playing, but you had to actually work. Study. Learn. It was your first notice that society expected something of you.

    But 20 of you were massacred by bullets that the NRA stoutly maintained as a sacred constitutional right. Multiple bullets were pumped into your young and defenseless bodies, all in the name of some abstract notion that shooting innocent children somehow was the necessary price to pay for establishing a "well regulated militia".

    I just cannot fathom it. It is beyond human comprehension that such a massacre can happen in a civilized country. How can anybody entertain the obscene notion that their right to own, carry, and caress a device designed to kill human beings trumps the right of a FIRST GRADER to continue living?

    Meaningful gun control now! If not now, when?

    Note to Boehner and McConnell: "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." --Bob Dylan-- (-7.25, -6.21)

    by Tim DeLaney on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:10:13 AM PST

  •  Polls Are Encouraging (0+ / 0-)

    My Facebook feed has been somewhat discouraging. Uncovered some NRA folk who you would not suspect at all for being associated with them. From Connecticut and I have family members who live in Sandy Hook. Seeing the relatives closest to them who I knew were pretty much pro gun just post that law abiding gun owners are being blamed. No change in sentiment there.

    Think it is helpful to focus on regulation and banishment of assault weapons while strongly affirming that law abiding gun ownership is recognized and supported. Think you can get a majority of gun owners to agree if the slippery slope argument is taken away. Sure Bushmaster's contributions to the NRA will prevent the officials of that organization from getting on board. Not the situation with the members.

    •  NRA members are already on board. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Leo Flinnwood
      1. Requiring criminal background checks on gun owners and gun shop employees. 87 percent of non-NRA gun-owners and 74 percent of NRA gun owners support the former, and 80 percent and 79 percent, respectively, endorse the latter.

      2. Prohibiting terrorist watch list members from acquiring guns. Support ranges from 80 percent among non-NRA gun-owners to 71 percent among NRA members.

      3. Mandating that gun-owners tell the police when their gun is stolen. 71 percent non-NRA gun-owners support this measure, as do 64 percent of NRA members.

      4. Concealed carry permits should only be restricted to individuals who have completed a safety training course and are 21 and older. 84 percent of non-NRA and 74 percent of NRA member gun-owners support the safety training restriction, and the numbers are 74 percent and 63 percent for the age restriction.

      5. Concealed carry permits shouldn’t be given to perpetrators of violent misdemeanors or individuals arrested for domestic violence. The NRA/non-NRA gun-owner split on these issues is 81 percent and 75 percent in favor of the violent misdemeanors provision and 78 percent/68 percent in favor of the domestic violence restriction.

      I would like to point out that Nancy Lanza was a law-abiding gun owner, and Adam Lanza was a law-abiding citizen until Friday.  I have heard the terms "law-abiding" and "responsible gun owners" thrown around go much in the past three days without any clear context or definiton.  Those terms are beginning to lose any meaning for me.

  •  Hard to see how high-capacity magazine ban (0+ / 0-)

    could infringe anybody's rights, especially if the limit is set at some sane number. Two would be silly, given that you can buy revolvers with 8 round cylinders, but 10 or 12 might not be silly.

    There is an argument that cuts both ways -- but it's very two-sidedness seems to argue in favor of a ban:

    Somebody who knows what they were doing could modify a ten round magazine into something larger.

    Probably true, but...if that's the case, people in a real national defense situation - whatever that might be - would find each other, share knowledge and skills, and make the modifications.

    Ditto for a truly determined and knowledgeable killer with the appropriate resources.

    A more impulsive situation? Probably not. could save some lives without interfering with situations where larger magazines might actually be appropriate.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:16:23 AM PST

    •  Make the modification illegal. (0+ / 0-)

      The honest gun owners wouldn't try it and the nutjobs give you evidence for court.

      An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

      by Debby on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:51:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  SO GLAD (0+ / 0-)

    that there are twenty-seven flags in the photo of the memorial you've shown.  I've seen way too many media outlets referring to the "26 victims" of Adam Lanza, totally excluding his mother, the first victim.

    I had a conversation with a family member last night about Nancy Lanza.  She took the position that many here might take, that Nancy Lanza was some kind of deranged, gun-collecting survivalist who believed that the economic apocalypse would force her to defend herself and her family.  Admittedly - pretty extreme.  BUT.  All this tragedy has said to me about Nancy Lanza is that everything she bought - every single thing she thought she knew about guns and gun safety and owning guns - was wrong.

    •  And everyone paid for her willful illusions. (0+ / 0-)

      I am torn about her. I think it's hard to see your kid as the other, but you as a parent should also know your kid best. She had to have suspected but wouldn't acknowledge that her kid was a threat. Twenty six other children (because we all have mothers) are dead because of it.

      An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

      by Debby on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:54:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'd like to think this may be a turning point ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    . . . but my political sense tells me otherwise. Any spike in polling numbers will be fleeting. And those numbers don't even tell the whole story - many of the opponents of any gun control are effectively single-issue voters. Let's face facts: the NRA rules, & any politician who doesn't represent a safe liberal district & who dares to stand up to them will get squished like a bug. There will be no legislation coming out of Congress. Period.

    It isn't "spinelessness" on the part of Democrats; it's the record. The NRA may be a hard-right organization run by fanatics, but has the proven ability to take down politicians who don't toe their line. This organization was the single biggest factor in the electoral routs of 1994 & 2010. If the Democrats take the bait & push on this issue, the result will be another rout in 2014 that will result in reactionary conservatives holding all the levers of power.  

    For years we on the left have wondered why it is that the Republican Party has been able to win the votes of white working-class Americans while it has brought them only lower standards of living & less economic security. No, it isn't because these voters are ignorant or stupid. Part of the answer is that the Republicans have become highly adept at playing to white fears & resentment (affirmative action, welfare), but the deeper reason is that politics in these times is more about identity than about delivering the goods.

    This is why the NRA has become so powerful: it has succeeded in making gun rights into an identity issue - "You start talking about gun control & you're messing with who I am." Many Americans have come to view gun rights as more precious, as more essential to liberty, than even freedom of speech & assembly, privacy rights, or habeus corpus & due process. Millions of Americans get their information, & their political direction, directly from the NRA.

    I'm not saying that this issue isn't worth fighting. But it's important to understand just how huge a mountain this will be to climb. A good place to start would be to focus scrutiny on the NRA, to shine the light on just how fanatical this group has become, & to force them onto indefensible political terrain. We have to cut this organization down to size before we can accomplish anything legislatively or politically.

    •  Good points (0+ / 0-)

      The power the NRA has over the Republican party took a long time to garner.  The approach to stripping them of some of that power should be multifaceted.

      Personally, I feel that many progressives often empower the NRA, due to their unrelenting and uncompromising attacks on gun ownership.  'Banning guns' is exactly what the NRA tells lower income whites that liberals want to do, and that after assault rifles it will be their handguns, and after that it will be their high power rifles, etc, etc ...

      In point of fact, calling for weapon bans confirms to lower class whites everything the NRA has been telling them for years.  That is why I favor starting the conversation as many liberals have: assault weapons are a unique case, and no future bans on commercial fire arms will follow the assault weapons bans.

      Likewise, emphasis on expansion and enforcing of current gun laws is an attractive avenue.  Tell a gun owner that no one is coming for his fire arms, but that they MUST be secured and they MUST be registered.

  •  What about those hordes of black & brown people (0+ / 0-)

    pouring out of the cities coming to rape our wimmins, abduct our daughters, and steal our flatscreens? You don't expect us to defend ourselves with a shovel, do you?

  •  Gun Laws need many parts (0+ / 0-)

    An Assault Weapons ban is a no brainer.  Same with high capacity clips.  Lets go a step further and put the Brady Bill in place.  But then what ??  There's lots of guns and idiots with guns out there.  Here's a few facts :

    Cars are MUCH MUCH more tighly regulated than guns.  Remember the original truck attack on the world trade center, or the Oklahoma City bombing?  Both were solved by forensics evidence tracing the vehicle used.  Through national databases that registered who had control of the vehicle.  Guns ?  Not so much.

    The best current government registry, etrace, is so pathetic it barely works.  Not only does it have little access to gun records, after their first sale, they are no longer traced.   Private sales are NEVER traced.  It is rife with privacy issue problems, and is even on shaky legal grounds leading to vaild concerns that it's even constitutional.

    Shouldn't guns be as easy to trace as cars ?  A national registry makes complete sense.  Until there is one, gun dealers abusing the system, selling bulk lots of handguns or longarms,  using straw purchasers, can never be tracked effectively.

    Whats more,   gun ownership laws vary wildly from state to state.  A federal system can close loopholes, protect normal gun owners, and weed out the bad gun dealers.  All while reducing crime by helping keep guns out of the hands of felons and the mentally ill.  A National Weapons Registry is something we have got to talk about.

    Finally, how about reducing the number of guns?  Two methods come to mind.  Buybacks - always good to get a gun out of the streets.  Universal national buyback needs to be the rule.  Anywhere, anytime, with few questions.

    The other method is less intuitive - the tobacco/public health model.  Step one - Fedeal sales tax on guns, used to pay for the federal weapons registry.  Sounds revenue neutral to me ......  Next, tax the heck out of ammo sales.  Finally, annual registration fees. We register boats cars airplanes sailboats XRay Machines elevators ... the list goes on and on.Why not guns?

    I am NOT saying treat gun owners like sex offenders.  They deserve respect, when they work inside a system designed to watch out for societies best interests.  Right now though, the gun ownership rules are designed to make sales and profits for manufacturers the national priority.  That has got to change.

  •  You know why we need "high capacity" magazines? (0+ / 0-)

    Because there are more than ten assholes who want to ban them.

    There's nothing "liberal" about a government monopoly on force.

    by 45superman on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 02:18:00 PM PST

  •   so they choose arms over life (0+ / 0-)

    Id rather be a tax and spend democrat than a borrow and spend republican any day. I pay my bills. - me

    by AustinLiberal on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 05:33:30 PM PST

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