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Harry Reid
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says Congress needs to do something about gun violence because "we are not doing enough to protect our citizens."
Reid: "Congress to examine what will be done... we need to accept the reality that we are not doing enough to protect our citizens."
@daveweigel via TweetDeck
And what does the National Rifle Association have to say about that? Well, nothing today. But three years ago, Wayne LaPierre, the head of the NRA called Reid a "true champion" for gun rights:
"He is a true champion of the Second Amendment," LaPierre said of Reid.
With NRA member Joe Manchin also coming out for gun control in the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting, a trend is starting to develop.

11:56 AM PT: Full transcript of Reid's remarks here

Originally posted to The Jed Report on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:45 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  We'll see (8+ / 0-)

    have learned to judge Reid on actions and not rhetoric.

    •  Good advice for every elected official. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hideinplainsight, ChuckInReno

      Too many promises in the past to trust words without action.

      The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

      by teacherjon on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:10:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  NRA members (7+ / 0-)

        are lining up to regulate semiautomatic weapons.

        It's going to happen.

        Keep the pressure up. It's the only thing politicians understand.

        Armed and Dangerous: a blog about gun violence

        •  Ban sale of assault weapons and semi-autos that (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Vatexia, yet another liberal, Debby

          hold more than 9 rounds. Ban the sale of 223 cal bullets and related ammo. Ban the sale of 50cal weaps and oversize clips. Ban carrying in public, concealed or not.

          US population 350 million - guns 300million. Enough is enough.

          RTKRC - Right to keep and raise children. Trumps RTKBA - Right to keep & bear arms.

          by hideinplainsight on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:02:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Most muzzle loaders (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            are 50 caliber.  You may want to take that into account before making lists of regulations you'd like to see implemented.

            Additionally, concealed carry permits often undergo rigorous background investigations (varying widely by state, but this could be standardized at the federal level).

            I also caution you not to waste this opportunity to conduct real gun regulatory reform.  Throwing out your own, personal anti-gun wishlist (many items of which would have zero effect on preventing these incidents in the future) will probably embolden the anti-regulatory gun advocates with the gun owners.

            Stick with the assault weapon ban and ban on high capacity magazines if you want something banned, but if you want something that will actually prevent this type of violence, you will need to start looking at the human part of the equation.

            •  lol, 50cal sniper rifles not black powder. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              deepbreath, cocinero

              Concealed carry is so open in many states that it is almost unregulated, coupled with "Stand your Ground" laws, it's dangerous. Remember Trayvon Martin.

              The world will not end on Dec 21st, but yours might if you run into an idiot with a concealed carry permit. BTW, did you know you're 5 times more likely to get shot if your packing than if you're not. A pocketful of false courage can be a dangerous thing....

              RTKRC - Right to keep and raise children. Trumps RTKBA - Right to keep & bear arms.

              by hideinplainsight on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 02:35:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Don't see too many news stories (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                about kids taking a .50 cal sniper rifle to school though.  

                Probably couldn't lift the thing more then a couple of yards.

                Regulations for the sake of regulations aren't a good idea.  They should have a goal and be trying to prevent a current issue.

                You are right about the concealed carry permits though.  I'd rather the Fed have strict guidelines in place, complete with required classes and background checks.

                •  Remember the Wahington snipers? (0+ / 0-)

                  In 1996 in England, A crazed Scoutmaster, who had been accused in inappropriate behavior with young boys killed 20 5 &6 year olds using three handguns. That resulted in passing the most sweeping gun control in English history.

                  Of course, since only 50 million people don't own guns, we could just pass themm out so everyone was armed. Then we'd all be safe, just like Dodge City in the Old West.

                  Opps, they eventually banned guns.

                  RTKRC - Right to keep and raise children. Trumps RTKBA - Right to keep & bear arms.

                  by hideinplainsight on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 03:00:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  PS I enjoy this dialogue and understand your (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  opinions, I just disagree with the concept that fear is best served by owning a gun. I've actually had someone pull a gun on me. I disarmed him and had him arrested.

                  RTKRC - Right to keep and raise children. Trumps RTKBA - Right to keep & bear arms.

                  by hideinplainsight on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 03:07:08 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I hear ya...good discussion (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    My overall point is just that once you introduce the concept of banning weapons, it becomes the easy fix, without addressing the real problem: often times being either the 1) the mental state of the person or 2) the need for the weapon in the first place.

                    Your proposal is rational and personally, I don't think I can effectively argue that someone's enjoyment for shooting their .50 cal or AR-15 is worth the life of even one person.

                    That said, if that kid had gone into that school with a 12-gauge, it would have taken one shot to take that door down.  He would have walked in there with a bag of shells and in those close quarters with all those kids ... I feel the result would have been exactly the same.

                    And as far as handguns, I don't carry myself, but I don't find fault with those people that do.  If I were as confident in my being able to manage an armed assailant, I may have a different view.

                    •  They only allow single and double barreled (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      shotguns in England. I have a 9 shot short barreled assault shotgun. 15 years ago, my wife's cousin was afflicted with schizophrenia,  He  "identified" the people responsible for the voices in his head and was going to take them out.  I alerted law enforcement and he was "treated". I offered to buy his shotgun to get it out of his hands, still have it, never had the urge to soot it.

                      In my home I have a German Shepherd, well socialized but with a big bark.  The bad guys think twice.

                      My other gun is a replica 45 Thompson Machine Gun with a 200 round clip, it doesn't shoot but I think of it as art.

                      RTKRC - Right to keep and raise children. Trumps RTKBA - Right to keep & bear arms.

                      by hideinplainsight on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 05:10:39 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  We have reached a tipping point. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Please keep up the pressure. Lobby like you have never lobbied before.

          Talk to everyone you know and learn as much as you can about the issue. I was shocked when I learned there were 31 shooting incidents in schools since Columbine.

          It finally took a mass slaughter of 6 and 7 year olds before we decided that enough is enough.

          Talk to your elected representatives, email them, write them, make an appointment to see them in their office. Tell them if they don't support sensible gun control legislation, that you will work tirelessly to defeat them.

          It takes time to practice generosity, but being generous is the best use of our time. - Thich Nhat Hanh.

          by Frank In WA on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:26:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Watch what he does, not what he says. (7+ / 0-)

    -6.38, -6.21: Lamented and assured to the lights and towns below, Faster than the speed of sound, Faster than we thought we'd go, Beneath the sound of hope...

    by Vayle on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:49:42 AM PST

  •  Sen. Feinstein to have a bill ready in Jan '13 (10+ / 0-)

    Senator Diane Feinstein, the author of the original assault weapons ban, will introduce legislation at the start of the 113th Congress that will ban the sale of new assault weapons, ban large capacity magazines, close the gun show loophole, and improve the background check system. For the first time in decades this looks like it has a chance to become a bill that could pass.

    Let's see if the Senate Majority Leader will support it as a very positive first step.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:54:24 AM PST

    •  A very positive first step indeed. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tamar, Boris49, VClib, hideinplainsight

      I'm so glad Senator Feinstein is taking the lead on this.

    •  John Kerry should wait to leave the Senate until (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miggles, Debby

      this bill comes up.

      We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

      by Tamar on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:36:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Lautenberg has legislation regarding (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yet another liberal, Debby

      regulating high-volume magazines.

      Gillibrand has legislation tackling the gun show loophole and illegal guns.

      Make them vote multiple times on each piece of the puzzle.

      "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

      by Andrew C White on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:47:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Andrew - why? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jomsc, Andrew C White

        Instead of trying to embarrass GOP Senators why not try to bring along as much bipartisan support for Senator Feinstein's bill as possible? You are completely missing the politics of this. The political risks to the GOP Senators isn't voting against each element, it's voting for it even once. The fewer votes required increases our chances of passing a comprehensive piece of legislation.  If we start trying to embarrass them we will find ourselves in a fight, not a negotiation. If intelligently managed Feirnstein's bill has a real chance in the Senate. The chances in the House are less clear, but the more bipartisan support we have in the Senate the more political cover the bill will have in the House.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:03:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Progress is the goal. Progress.

        •  IF there is a chance for bi-partisan agreement (0+ / 0-)

          then new bills can be drawn up that comprise those agreements... the threat over their heads is that they get to vote against sensible legislation the people support if they are not willing to come to agreement. Puts pressure on Senate Republicans to put pressure on House Republicans to get on board too.

          "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

          by Andrew C White on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:17:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Threat over the heads (0+ / 0-)

            Won't have to do with any GOP congresscritter voting against gun control. The way most districts are set up most of their constituents agree with them.

            The threat will be to any rural dem senator or senator in the rust belt who votes FOR it.

            We got those votes this time in a lot of areas precisely because gun control hasn't been an issue.

            Just like with Columbine right now public opinion is in favor of more control,  a lot of people are saying strike while the iron is hot.

            But we saw the pushback after and what happened when the GOP got control again. 2 wars, Bush Tax Cuts,
            The K Street project. Tom Delay, DICK Armey, Phill Gramm, Newt.

            I understand how many people here hate guns and gun owners.  However unless it's really well written I see us handing the gov't back to the GOP for another 10 years if we aren't careful.

            •  Nope, not this time (0+ / 0-)

              Republicans won the battle last time because the political pendulum was swinging their way and guns were a usefully divisive part of it. That is completely changed this time around. But yes, the legislation needs to be well crafted and effective to its purpose not punitive to responsible gun owners.

              "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

              by Andrew C White on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:08:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Do you have (0+ / 0-)

      text of Feinsteins bill?

      •  Not yet drafted (0+ / 0-)

        Feinstein was on MTP Sunday morning and gave a broad outline of what would be in the bill. They are still drafting and I don't expect to see it before the new Congress starts.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 02:59:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Can't wait to send my (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leu2500, DRo, buckshot face

    NRA Christmas Cards this year.  Appreciate the convenience of being able to order them right here on Daily Kos.

    "And now we know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." -- FDR

    by Mogolori on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:55:55 AM PST

    •  Let 'em waste their ad money (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      political junquie

      Republicans: if they only had a heart.

      by leu2500 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:00:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, thanks. I called Ad Choices. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DRo, Miggles
        Antonia Caamano
        CooperKatz & Company
        phone (917) 593-3053
        The ad buy is a drop in the NRA bucket.  Accepting NRA advertising while we bury 20 children is grotesque.  These ads need to be yanked and the account suspended.  Anything less deserves severing of Ad Choices' business here, very simply.

        "And now we know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." -- FDR

        by Mogolori on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:10:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think all (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          businesses, sites, etc.) should be responsible for their ads.  It is only a layer of non-responsibility that we allow them to duck behind.

          Be the change you want to see in the world. -Gandhi

          by DRo on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:17:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agree. But cognizant of the fact that Daily Kos (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            leu2500, Tamar, DRo, phrogge prince

            doesn't control what Ad Choice distributes, I sent the following letter to Ms. Caamano:

            Hello,  Ms. Acaamano:

            In my morning reading of blogs and news sites today, I have seen several
            ads placed by Ad Choices from the National Rifle Association for their
            annual Christmas cards.  My understanding is that these blogs and news
            sites don't really have much say as to whose advertising Ad Choices'
            algorithm selects for publication, so I was wondering whether -- out of
            respect for the victims and their families in Newtown, CT -- Ad Choices
            would consider suspending these advertisements.

            Your reply would be most appreciated, and I wish you and yours well
            during this bittersweet holiday season.


            "And now we know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." -- FDR

            by Mogolori on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:29:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nice letter. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              But my point is that 'doesn't control' is an excuse we have allowed to become common.  It shouldn't be.

              If I own some property I might put up a sign or allow someone to put up a sign on my land; but I surely would not allow someone the right to change the signs displayed on my land -to anything the wanted- without my permission.

              Be the change you want to see in the world. -Gandhi

              by DRo on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:46:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Agree. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                This site deserves an answer from Ad Choices, and I hope to get one privately as a trusted user.  If that answer is "no, we will not suspend", then I hope the proprietors of this site will suspend the relationship.  If the proprietors decided to suspend the relationship in advance, I think that would be a stronger statement, but that's not under my control.

                "And now we know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." -- FDR

                by Mogolori on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:54:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  With enough protest (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  Ad Choices and similar would be forced to offer ads that gave the site some control.  

                  That should have happened from the get-go, but here we are.  Maybe we can achieve some 'control'.  ;-)

                  Be the change you want to see in the world. -Gandhi

                  by DRo on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:00:30 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  DRo - this is a call for Kos, not us (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                It has been Kos' historical view that any bans on advertising gives those who do advertise some "approval" status. I think he is right and respect his decision to welcome all ads that help him pay the bills.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:06:50 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  you know if you click on it (0+ / 0-)

          you cost them money and pay Dailykos.

          Just sayin'.

  •  filibuster reform could make this interesting (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    with any luck, the senate might be able to get a non-expiring bill passed. the house may be a tougher nut to crack, though.

  •  Good, Congress needs to do more (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chicating, Aquarius40, Andrew C White

    I realize the president has an important role, but there has been too much focus on Obama, imo.

    Manchin's comments, in particular, are encouraging.

  •  Will Feinstein support filibuster reform? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cany, Mogolori, kovie, Tamar

    She has been on the fence about filibuster reform. Facing a Republican minority determined to block her weapon ban might change her thinking.

  •  I'm not in favor of "curbing" assault rifles (6+ / 0-)

    I'm in favor of banning them altogether. Period.

    There's no reason any private citizen needs access to these guns outside of the military or law enforcement.

    Let's hope whatever Harry gets behind, its something substantive and permanent.

    Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

    by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:35:07 PM PST

    •  The last thing I'd want is an assault rifle. But (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I know dozens of shooters who own them that never do anything with them but punch holes in paper targets.  (Well, one assault rifle shooter I know does every now and then pop a groundhog in his cattle pastures).  I see no point in totally banning them.

      •  They can enlist in the military (0+ / 0-)

        or pursue a career in law enforcement.

        Lots of people would like to see meth, heroin, crack cocaine, ecstasy and other drugs legalized, but we don't do that either.

        Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

        by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 03:58:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I shouldn't dignify you comment with a response, (0+ / 0-)

          but most such shooters that I know have ALREADY served their country in the military and already HAVE careers for which they've been educated:  their lives don't center around shooting an assault rifle; it is merely a part of it.

          How you come up with the meth analogy is beyond me!

  •  Good news, but so far all Democrats. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm glad to see pro-gun rights Democrats such as Reid and Manchin get on board. I'm waiting for the first pro-gun rights Republican to support meaningful gun control, particularly GOP House members.  Not holding my breath either.

  •  Harry Reid Should resign now. (0+ / 0-)

    If it takes a mass slaughter of kingergarteners to change his mind, he wasn't qualified for the job in the first place. Sam goes for Obama.

    "Nothing preserves Democracy better than the stupidity of its opponents" - KO

    by buckshot face on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:37:21 PM PST

  •  Something will be done, I'm sure of it (0+ / 0-)

    It probably won't be enough, but anything would be better than the status quo. And not just about guns and ammo, but mental health detection and treatment, which should be free to all, doing something about how pervasive violence is in our culture and society (how many TV shows and video games about violent crimes and terrorists do we really need?!?), getting all those violence-inciting shock jocks off the air, etc.

    Enough already. We need to grow the fuck up and be civilized.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:37:42 PM PST

  •  agreed (0+ / 0-)

    feminism might stand a chance if it weren't for the current crop of so-called feminists turning tricks off of it.

    by Josita Downes on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:41:08 PM PST

  •  I don't expect Wayne LaPierre to become (0+ / 0-)

    the voice of sanity overnight, but it would behoove him to understand he's on the wrong side of this discussion, and even his "true champions" are so appalled they realize something has to be done.  Unless he wants to lose all but the craziest of his supporters, he'll keep his comments rational, his website civil and his facebook page dark until the dust settles.

    "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

    by SueDe on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:41:57 PM PST

    •  The NRA is an untenable position (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      djbender, SueDe

      Their usual talking points in the wake of a shooting usually come from the following list:

      1. The shooter wasn't representative of "normal" gunowners.

      2. He could have killed them with something besides a gun.

      3. If only the victims had had the right to carry, they'd have been able to defend themselves.

      Number 2 was always an ridiculous argument to make in the wake of a mass shooting. Number 3 goes out of use because no one rationally thinks arming six year olds is a good idea. And in the case of number 1, the first victim was a survivalist/shooter/collector stocking up to protect herself from the (insert apocalypse here). In other words, the NRA's most vocal constituency. Not only was she not able to defend herself, her own weapons were used to kill her and then 20 children.

      So with their normal talking points out the window, they're lost. They got nothing.

      •  Northwatch - the NRA still has plenty of muscle (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        However, this is the first time in decades when we might make some progress on gun control. See my comment above on Sen. Feinstein's bill, it may have a chance because to the average voter, and even gun owner, it seems reasonable.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:13:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thank God (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Jon Tester... your turn.

    "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:45:37 PM PST

  •  Talking point No. 1: There is no threat to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SpamNunn, Miggles

    the 2nd Amendment.

    We are going to get common sense gun regulations and protect our children.
    We are going to end the reign of terror by the NRA. Wayne LaPierre above all should be chased back into the dark hole he crawled out of.
    We are going to change our culture so that the power of guns get the respect it deserves. That means taking safety very, very seriously.
    We are not going to abolish the rights of responsible gun owners.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:48:51 PM PST

    •  Law vs. Manmen (0+ / 0-)

      Sir, what law could possibly have stopped this madman?

      •  Um (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The weapons the guy used were legally obtained.  Law, legal, get it?

        If there weren't weapons and ammo in his reach, he would have been stopped.  The weapons and ammo were legally obtained.

        Has this gone in a circle enough for you yet?

        Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

        by yet another liberal on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:39:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  In this situation there may be no law that would (0+ / 0-)

          have stopped him, although a ban on assault rifles and high capacity magazines would have reduced the slaughter.
          However, Australia has had success cutting down on violence by regulation.
          Over a period of time, when we wrench control of our gov. from the gun industry and the gun cult, and we've changed the tone and attitude in our culture about guns and raw power, then we may get back to living peaceful lives.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 03:46:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  This is good news (0+ / 0-)

    It's hard to move any bill without the majority Leander's support.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:49:17 PM PST

  •  Let's hope that the NRA is on the ropes this (0+ / 0-)

    time and that elected officials will be able to get out from under their heels.

  •  As a follow-up to a gun ban or (0+ / 0-)

    restriction, I hope we also have a conversation about our country's approach to mental illness, and the resources devoted to it.  In my view, this is actually the more intractable problem.

    The most violent element in society is ignorance.

    by Mr MadAsHell on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:51:52 PM PST

  •  Legislation to keep assault weapons and semi auto (0+ / 0-)

    matics from sale to the public the first step.  

    then there is the whole gun/killing steady state culture we have 24/7 via TV and video "games".    The NRA goes a long way to promoting this culture and being the lobbying arm for gun mfgs etc.

    and thirdly we need a better mental health system.   (right now our prisons have a large number of the mentally ill in them) .  

    "I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." Richard Feynman

    by leema on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:52:51 PM PST

    •  Video Games (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Millions of people play video games and are able to easily separate fake from reality.

      Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

      There have been no straight evidence that links the two, just casual correlation.

    •  leema - banning semiautomatic rifles and pistols (0+ / 0-)

      isn't going to happen. Very few firearms, with the exception of shotguns, sold today are not semi-automatic. It's a technology that has been around for 100 years. However, I do think we have a chance at a new assault weapons ban.

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:16:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Don't go too far (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Semiautomatics are a different matter: There's nothing very different between a semiauto handgun and many revolvers: one pull of the trigger, one bullet.

      It's the large-capacity magazines that are the primary issue, even with fully automatic weapons. If you only had a five-shot clip, it wouldn't matter if you could fire off 600 rounds a minute at full auto, because you couldn't due to having to constantly reload.

      Focusing on the mechanism the weapon uses to fire one bullet at a time is the wrong approach. During the early parts of World War I, the average British soldier was expected to be able to put 15 rounds into a 12-inch target at 300 yards, with their bolt-action rifles. Many could do 30+. The record was 38. In other words, these men were firing a bolt-action rifle nearly as fast as a shooter would today put out aimed fire from a semiautomatic rifle.

      •  I should have mentioned... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        That the British standard was doing that in 60 seconds. It's the origin of the term "Mad Minute".

      •  Northwatch - that's very good shooting (0+ / 0-)

        15 rounds into a 12-inch target, 300 meters away, in 60 seconds with a bolt action rifle is exceptional shooting. Having fired an M14 as well as an M16, and the WWI vintage Springfield M1903 as well as several more modern sniper rifles, when I was in the US Army, it is interesting that of the standard infantry rifles the WWI version was the easiest to shoot accurately for long distance. It's very difficult to accurately shoot an M16 at 300 meters. However, modern asymmetrical warfare has more close contact with the enemy and  automatic weapons have a great advantage. Even so, we always trained to use three shot bursts. After that any fully-automatic assault rifle becomes very inaccurate.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:36:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Don't expect too much (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    winsock, Americantrueandblue
    In the coming days and weeks, we will engage in a meaningful conversation and thoughtful debate about how to change laws and culture that allow violence to grow.
    I would be surprised if this means more than some mental health initiatives and maybe some tightening of the gun show, private purchase and long gun loopholes and some enhanced background checks and waiting periods.    

    As a gun owner, I would support all of the above.  

    That being said, it's hard to stop a determined killer.  

    Let's face a scary reality.  In 1927, a crazy guy killed 38 kids in a schoolhouse with home made bombs, and then he blew himself and his car up.  He was motivated, and he didn't need an assault rifle to do what he did.  

    Limit the ability to get semi-auto rifles with extended clips and someone will use a pump shotgun.   Those are perfectly legal.  A Remington 870 with a barrel of at least 18" and and overall length of at least 26"can be concealed under a coat and, with an extended magazine, can fire 10 rounds of "OO" buck.  You can kill lots of people with even a .38 police special and some speed loaders.  

    Go on the intertubes right now and see how easy it is to find out how to make a pipe bomb, or a Molotov cocktail, or even an Oklahoma City type diesel fuel and fertilizer bomb or Sarin gas.  

    I don't know how you stop a motivated nut from killing people.  I really don't.  

    Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause. - Gandhi

    by SpamNunn on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:57:17 PM PST

  •  Emotion.... (0+ / 0-)

    Emotionalism is trading higher than logic today.  

  •  Cheapest solution to the gun culture is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    to make penis enlargement covered under ObamaCare.

    Republicans believe you need an ID to vote but you can donate millions to any candidate completely anonymously. (h/t jbou)

    by Calouste on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:05:16 PM PST

  •  Couldn't we at least insist that those who traffic (0+ / 0-)

    weapons weapons of mass destruction be hunted down as assiduously as those who traffic drugs?

    •  BobNJ - we have a new name (0+ / 0-)

      Calling guns WMDs hurts the cause. Guns are not chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. However calling assault rifles weapons of mass murder is accurate and appropriate.

      Gun manufacturers who comply will all international, federal, state and local laws are not criminals. We may not like what they do but they have every right to manufacture and sell their products. You can use every effort to change the laws, hold protests at their facilities or those retailers who sell their products. But they aren't criminals and can't be "hunted down".

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:21:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Golly.... (0+ / 0-)

    And it only took the slaughter of 20 little kids at once during the Holiday season.

    Me SOOOOO proud!!!

    I'm not crazy, I've just been in a very bad mood for 40 years!

    by liberalagogo on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:10:37 PM PST

  •  A plea for help from the gun fetishists (0+ / 0-)

    In the various social media I'm on, the only people talking about banning guns are the gun fetishists.  Of course, they're lying when they claim other people insist on it after every gun death, and asking for proof just makes them double down on the lies.  But that's standard for the right.  (I see a few here, but they seem to miss that, and dKos isn't exactly the mainstream media...)

    I originally dismissed this as more whiney unhinged right-wing political correctness that we saw during the election.  But at this point, I think it's more than that:

    It's a cry for help.  No one would bring up banning guns so often and in such dire circumstances except those afraid of themselves and what they might do.

    So even though I don't think we should ban guns,  we have to listen to them.  We have to put their proposal on the table.  The discussion of severe restrictions must be included in the response to the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary.

    "What doesn't have credibility today is the truth." -- Bill Moyers, The Daily Show 6/22/05

    by Baron Dave on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:20:54 PM PST

  •  If Only (0+ / 0-)

    If only our political officials had come to the gun control religion before the Newtown massacre?

    We can only speculate and cry.

    "Some men see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?"

    by Doctor Who on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:21:04 PM PST

  •  Do unarmed citizens (0+ / 0-)

    have a right to be protected from armed citizens? Or do gun owners' rights trump ours? Yes, I know shooting someone is a crime, but we need protection before they kill us.

  •  No business... (0+ / 0-)

    Harry Reid has no business getting involved in the issue of the State of Connecticut, this is a state matter, they need to fix it.   They left a school unprotected.  The citizens of CT need to reevaluate the current school security system they have in place.  The man was mentally ill, I don't know of any law that could prevent mentally ill people from commenting these heinous acts.  

  •  I'm skeptical (0+ / 0-)

    I think some things can pass and they might help some.

    However I don't think Reid or Manchin are going to pass the level of gun control that some people here want.

    If they had that power we never would have gone to war in Iraq, we'd have the public option, and we wouldn't be having the fiscal cliff negotiations.

    If anything too restrictive gets passed I think we are set for 1994 all over again and not only will we have a repeal of the gun legislation but ACA as well.

    I'm all for doing something to get guns away from crazy people. However I don't believe that doing it at a cost of turning the gov't back over to the GOP next cycle would help us that much either.

    Has to be carefully crafted.

    •  Hollowdweller - I agree with you (0+ / 0-)

      See my longer comment upthread about Sen. Feinstein's bill. I think it has the right balance. I agree with you that the GOP would love to run on gun control in 2014 and it would be a mistake for the Dems to make it the central issue.

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:39:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here's a question for you. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Do you think Feinsteins bill would pass constitutional muster under Heller???

        I mean I do think that limiting the capacity of magazines WOULD but I'm not sure about banning a specific gun since that was what Heller was all about.

        I'm thinking if people want better control of so called assault weapons maybe they should be moved into a cagegory similar to machine guns where they are still legal but involve much greater expense and scrutiny to the individual to actually own?

        What do you think?

        •  Hollow - I would need to go back and read Heller (0+ / 0-)

          again, but I think so. I also think that Feinstein will be very mindful of Heller as she crafts the specific language. However, the challenge will be to define what is an assault rifle because what characterizes them is cosmetics, not firepower.

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 02:51:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  A caller (0+ / 0-)

    in to NPR this afternoon said that in Switzerland, they monitor ammunition more than guns. Might this be a path for us to take? We are SO flooded with guns, any new bans are going to take a long time to have an effect, but cutting off ammunition, particularly high capacity magazines, could make a difference sooner.

    Also, have you contacted all your representatives?



    White House

    C'mon, y'all! I did this and even tracked down Blunt on Facebook to harass him! You can do yours!

    An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

    by Debby on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:50:55 PM PST

  •  Thoughts on gun safety laws (0+ / 0-)

    No clips with greater capacity than five
    No  fully automatic firearms
    No semi-automatic firearms
    RFID tagging of all firearms at the manufacturer level

    Any more ideas?

    President Barack Obama. Good man in a storm.

    by mwm341 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 03:50:59 PM PST

    •  Rephrasing the above: (0+ / 0-)

      Replace 'Gun Safety' with 'Firearms Responsibility'
      Note that I'm talking about non-military firearms.

      That's better.

      President Barack Obama. Good man in a storm.

      by mwm341 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 03:59:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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