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Firefighters pray in front of a memorial along the road to Sandy Hook Elementary School, a day after a shooting in Newtown, Connecticut on December 15, 2012. Investigators assembled
More of these? NRA doesn't care.
Assholes.
Sources close to the issue tell Fox News that the National Rifle Association -- which has remained silent since the shooting, chiefly to allow for a proper period for mourning -- will soon start to "push back" against the gun-control lobby.

"If we're going to have a conversation, then let's have a comprehensive conversation," said one industry source. "If we're going to talk about the Second Amendment, then let's also talk about the First Amendment, and Hollywood, and the video games that teach young kids how to shoot heads.

"If you really want to stop incidents like this," the source continued, "passing one more law is not going to do a damn thing. Columbine happened when? In 1999. Smack in the middle of the original assault-weapons ban."

Thanks for reminding us that the original assault weapons ban was inadequate!

The top 10 movies in Australia this year include some of the most violent: Avengers (#1), The Dark Knight Rises (#2), Skyfall (#3), The Hunger Games (#5), Prometheus (#14), Bourne Legacy (#25), Looper (#27), Battleship (#32) and Total Recall (#49). And yes, they play video games in Australia. Yet, no mass shootings since 1996. Why?

On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia’s history.

Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.

At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.

All the violence in movies and video games doesn't mean shit if a potential shooter can't get his hands on a weapon of mass death. It's that simple.

So if that's the debate the NRA wants to have—one focused on shifting the blame elsewhere, then bring it the fuck on, assholes.

The NRA may think 20 first graders is an acceptable price to pay for their radical agenda. Now we get to find out whether America agrees.

And in case you're not angry enough ...

But they also indicated that Feinstein's provisions relating to the number of rounds a weapon can accommodate will be contested fiercely. "A standard semi-automatic handgun holds 12 to 14 rounds," one source close to the issue told Fox News. "Everyone would have to retool and new hardware would have to be made. That's going to be very expensive to manufacturers."
Oh, it'll be expensive for manufacturers to retool? Heavens! Okay, feel free to shoot up more children then. Please, more Sandy Hooks. Because protecting gun manufacturer profits would be better than to have living, breathing, laughing first graders stay alive.

Update: Beltane, in the comments:

Everyone in the world watches these same movies and plays these same video games. What is different about the US? We have an organization like the NRA working to ensure that every sick deviant crackpot has unfettered access to the firearms of their choice.
Exactly.

Update: NRA finally breaks radio silence, says nothing of substance except news of a Friday news conference -- in time to get buried by the holidays.

Originally posted to kos on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:28 AM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA, Repeal or Amend the Second Amendment (RASA), and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (216+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    detroitmechworks, futilitismo, inclusiveheart, ApatheticNoMore1966, beltane, Simplify, hnichols, blueoregon, artmanfromcanuckistan, GAS, twigg, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, MartyM, ontheleftcoast, Prinny Squad, Dobber, Texdude50, Empty Vessel, entrelac, TheLizardKing, Mother Mags, johnosahon, MKinTN, glendaw271, Vita Brevis, luckydog, Hey338Too, Puffin, sukeyna, mrsgoo, annrose, peteri2, GrannyOPhilly, VTCC73, Just Bob, P Carey, DeadHead, Matt Z, Miss Blue, jabney, Crabby Abbey, StateOfGrace, Dont Just Stand There, cybersaur, SottoVoce, TexDem, GrumpyOldGeek, Cassandra Waites, Siri, pvasileff, NormAl1792, Mac in Maine, exterris, keirdubois, 313to212, Surly Cracker, SneakySnu, psnyder, boadicea, Denise Oliver Velez, tytalus, katasstrophy, Late Again, ksh01, Over the Edge, statsone, willrob, Joy of Fishes, Miggles, Marjmar, teloPariah, jfromga, concernedamerican, roses, Avilyn, FutureNow, Dave in Northridge, newpioneer, tonyahky, Sun Tzu, broths, Liberal Granny, Phil S 33, kerflooey, Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN, yet another liberal, Captain Sham, msmacgyver, eru, llywrch, ArtemisBSG, SilentBrook, zaynabou, Mistral Wind, Pandora, GeorgeXVIII, ericlewis0, jacey, IL clb, FogCityJohn, middleagedhousewife, glitterscale, corpsechorus, glorificus, mconvente, BeadLady, allensl, peterj911, Bisbonian, BlueInARedState, djMikulec, winsock, jck, dougymi, blue aardvark, howabout, flumptytail, maybeeso in michigan, anodnhajo, Azazello, newinfluence, Lost and Found, filkertom, gof, no way lack of brain, foucaultspendulum, filby, tofumagoo, ColoTim, sebastianguy99, yawnimawke, BachFan, Dreaming of Better Days, Todd E, sydneyluv, Isaacsdad, North Central, Fe, reflectionsv37, Edmund Xu, Fire bad tree pretty, Yo Bubba, Yamara, davehouck, angry marmot, Involuntary Exile, frisco, Mathazar, chuco35, rubyclaire, gramofsam1, OtherDoug, rbird, The Marti, rambler american, DefendOurConstitution, jhop7, john07801, northanger, buckstop, tampaedski, TomP, Dissentinator, martinjedlicka, Wreck Smurfy, Alice Venturi, llellet, Shockwave, CTLiberal, indycam, hester, dminor9, Bluesee, cooper888, johanus, Nica24, xanthippe2, ExStr8, riverlover, Tim DeLaney, devis1, AussieforObama2ndterm, Joieau, SherriG, kj in missouri, emeraldmaiden, ForestLake, OLinda, VeloVixen, annieli, unclebucky, AmazingBlaise, kravitz, marsala56, Seneca Doane, No10oX, eeff, StrayCat, blukat, sidnora, Illinois IRV, DixieDishrag, lizzibetts, temptxan, IndyinDelaware, Hillbilly Dem, chimene, OldDragon, Chas 981, basket, JoeyTheLemur, psyched, 417els, sboucher, Oh Mary Oh, splashy
  •  Last round got us the ESRB (13+ / 0-)

    My, that sure got all of the offensive video games off the shelves!

    If Joe Lieberman was feeling froggy, you know there would already be an inquiry gearing up.

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:34:05 AM PST

  •  Thank you for calling attention to this (20+ / 0-)

    clear attempt to distract people from the real issue which is and unchecked and lawless firearms industry and the carnage we endure as a result of that.

  •  Oooo, look! SHINY OBJECT!!!! OVER HERE! (24+ / 0-)

    "Let us never forget that doing the impossible is the history of this nation....It's how we are as Americans...It's how this country was built"- Michelle Obama

    by blueoregon on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:36:24 AM PST

  •  nod (41+ / 0-)

    Youth violence has gone down in the years since violent video games became widely available.  I think it's far healthier to shoot pixels than it is to shoot people, and it affords an alternative way to feel powerful and capable for many a troubled kid.  Games are not just escapes, they're outlets for emotions that we can't afford to have translated into reality.

    And I like killing dragons on the internet.

    One anti-Hollywood thing that I'd love to see affected by all this is the removal of those shows glamorizing doomsday preppers.  Taking them even halfway seriously on TV normalizes their paranoia.

  •  Don't let a good blame go to waste. (10+ / 0-)

    We need to put violent media behind the same curtain that adult media is. There's no way pervasive death and violence should be PG-13. And taxed to make it more costly to produce.

    We should be able to get one good thing enacted. Let's make it two.

    •  Video Games Are Protected By The 1st Amendment (20+ / 0-)

      From Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association (564 U.S. 08-1448):

      Like the protected books, plays, and movies that preceded them, video games communicate ideas--and even social messages--through many familiar literary devices (such as characters, dialogue, plot, and music) and through features distinctive to the medium (such as the player's interaction with the virtual world). That suffices to confer First Amendment protection.
      •  And yet, the film/game ratings system... (5+ / 0-)

        ...in which people under 17 can't get into an R-rated movie without their parents' permission (or an NC-17 movie at all) or can't buy video games rated Adults Only, is (to my knowledge) completely permissible under the First Amendment.

        How would tightening the ratings system somewhat, such that the MPAA or ESRB had a lower violence threshold for bumping a movie or game up to adults-only, run afoul of the First Amendment, if the movie/game ratings system as a whole doesn't?

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:47:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Ratings Systems Are Permissible.... (18+ / 0-)

          Because they're industry standards.

          They are NOT government mandated & enforced.

          •  Fair enough. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SilentBrook, gramofsam1

            So why don't we as a people demand that the industries in question enforce stricter standards, lowering the threshold of violence required to bump a PG to a PG-13, or PG-13 to R, or R to NC-17?

            Why not ask for government exercise the power it does have to lower the threshold of violence that is allowed to be shown before 10pm on broadcast television?

            I agree with kos that blaming violent media is a smokescreen for the NRA so they don't have to talk about the gun controls we sorely need, but I do think we should also take this occasion to look critically at our media and ask ourselves what forms of violence—whether with guns, knives, fists, or rhetoric—it might be promoting.

            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

            by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:57:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because.... (10+ / 0-)

              Regulating "violence" in media is an entirely subjective measure. For example, the current FCC regulations on sex & language are absurd in their application towards broadcast television.

              Expanding those kinds of standards to violent content enters the ninth circle of Dante's Hell of absurdities. Would a game that showed a murder be an automatic "M" rating? Or could they have a murder if it was a stabbing, but not a shooting? What would be an acceptable amount of blood to be shown? Could a victim scream for two seconds but not five?

              Should a copy of the Grimms' Fairy Tales have an "M" rating & not be sold to children, since it depicts acts of torture, murder, and abuse? How about Shakespeare? Hamlet? Romeo & Juliet? Richard III? All of those are family friendly, aren't they?

              •  The industry is already regulating it. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gramofsam1
                Regulating "violence" in media is an entirely subjective measure.
                And yet, the MPAA, ESRB, and whoever does TV ratings already does regulate "violence" in media, insofar as they assign movies, TV shows, and video games ratings as to age appropriateness.

                And those ratings systems are already in that "Dante's Hell of absurdities," where certain amounts of blood, gore, violence net something an R rating instead of PG-13, and from what I understand those amounts are often oddly quantitative.

                So given that there's already a threshold, established by those various ratings organizations, what's the argument against lowering that threshold?

                "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:16:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Alright.... (6+ / 0-)
                  So given that there's already a threshold, established by those various ratings organizations, what's the argument against lowering that threshold?
                  I think that's the wrong way to look at this issue. My response is what exactly is the argument for lowering the threshold?

                  To date there's no scientific proof that viewing media violence causes violent behavior (unlike the link between Cigarettes & Cancer). While there are studies that show increases in aggression, none of them can really take into account all possible environmental & genetic factors. And there have even been studies (here and here) that had the opposite result.

                  From Henry Jenkins, Director, Comparative Media Studies Program, Massachusetts Institute of Technology:

                  According to federal crime statistics, the rate of juvenile violent crime in the United States is at a 30-year low. Researchers find that people serving time for violent crimes typically consume less media before committing their crimes than the average person in the general population. It's true that young offenders who have committed school shootings in America have also been game players. But young people in general are more likely to be gamers — 90 percent of boys and 40 percent of girls play. The overwhelming majority of kids who play do NOT commit antisocial acts. According to a 2001 U.S. Surgeon General's report, the strongest risk factors for school shootings centered on mental stability and the quality of home life, not media exposure. The moral panic over violent video games is doubly harmful. It has led adult authorities to be more suspicious and hostile to many kids who already feel cut off from the system. It also misdirects energy away from eliminating the actual causes of youth violence and allows problems to continue to fester.
                  •  I don't think it's about a specific link... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...between violent media, as much as I think it's about our cultural mythology as a whole.

                    We've always been a rather violent society, as the enslaved and lynched African-Americans, the butchered Native Americans, the women injured or killed by their domestic partners, the men beaten and killed for being gay, etc. would surely attest.

                    And even if the mass media didn't cause that violence (as the violence predates the media), I think it's difficult to deny that the mass media perpetuates and reinforces it.

                    So we have to think critically about what our media is doing to perpetuate and reinforce these cultural myths about violence—and, I think, envision what it would look like if our media started to shift to telling other myths instead.

                    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                    by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:39:14 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Why don't you just say.... (5+ / 0-)

                      ....you don't like these games, and leave it at that? You have no scientific backing to go an inch further.

                      Don't hunt around for excuses to impose your tastes on others. It gives liberals a bad name.

                      "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                      by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:44:33 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  exactly (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kyril, sagesource

                        That kind of behaviour is actually pretty conservative, its why cons cant accept the lgbt crowd. I understand that some people just don't like violent video games, but untill they can show some serious harm done by them, through scientific studies, they really should be laughed at and ignored. If video games really are such a big problem it should be easy to prove.

                        "We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn

                        by Mudderway on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:37:16 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I do like these games. (0+ / 0-)

                        In fact, I quite enjoy some of them.

                        I don't know where in my comment you got that I want to "impose my tastes" on others; I'm saying nothing of the sort. (While I do want the media industry to raise their standards for what they deem appropriate for children, that's a matter of tightening existing guidelines rather than creating new ones.)

                        What I am saying is that I think we all need to think critically and engage in a critical conversation about the role played in our society by the myth of redemptive violence in our society—and ask ourselves what role the storytelling media play in promulgating and reinforcing that myth.

                        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                        by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:12:50 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  We did the study. (0+ / 0-)

                          It's called the youth violent crime rate since 1994, the year that Doom, the first mass-popular shooter, came out.

                          The rate dropped, and then held steady. If anything, that suggests no significant effect from this new type of media. It certainly couldn't be cited to prove video games of any sort increase violence.

                          Calling for "more studies" when there doesn't seem to be a problem to study is disingenuous, to say the least.

                          "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                          by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:54:33 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not calling for "more studies." (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm calling for an organic and holistic look at the culture as a whole—not just since 1994, but since before this country's founding.

                            As I wrote in a different comment here, this nation has been bathed in the myth of redemptive violence from the get-go—and it's been enslaved or lynched African-Americans, slaughtered Native Americans, battered women, bashed gay men, and others who were declared Others by our rhetorics about whiteness, masculinity, and Americanism who have historically found themselves on the receiving end.

                            I'm not pining for some kind of halcyon era of the bloodless TV Western where the guy in the white hat always shoots the guy in the black hat in the climactic pistol showdown.

                            I'm suggesting that the TV Western, along with all kinds of movies and video games and TV shows and books before and since (well, the video games all "since," as there weren't any video games in the era of the TV Western), promotes a set of cultural myths.

                            These cultural myths combine in a toxic way with the availability of guns in our culture, with something peculiar about the attitudes of Americans, with the stresses and strains of late industrial capitalism, and with our broken mental health system to produce a society that not only has these kinds of mass shootings far too often, but where our notions of whiteness, masculinity, and Americanness are violently enforced in other ways both broad (wars of choice), local (domestic violence and gay-bashing) and subtle (bullying and verbal abuse).

                            And I think that, broadly, is what we need to look at critically, and ask ourselves if there's a better way.

                            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                            by JamesGG on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:27:42 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You have two elements then.... (0+ / 0-)

                            ....like an explosive. Culture and guns.

                            It's difficult to control guns, but it's even more difficult to control culture. Work on the easier side first, maybe?

                            Perhaps without realizing it, you're embracing a conservative solution. Conservatives, as George Orwell pointed out, are always calling for a change of heart rather than a change of material circumstances. And the reason they do is that they know full well the change of heart isn't likely to happen, and so the status quo will go on and on -- but they have the luxury of lamenting it.

                            "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                            by sagesource on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 02:20:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm calling for both. (0+ / 0-)

                            Note that I've agreed with our need for better gun control laws. I don't disagree in the slightest that material circumstances need to change.

                            But I also think our attitudes need to change, because the problems with the myth of redemptive violence go way beyond anything that will be impacted by gun control laws.

                            Gun control doesn't protect the high-schooler who's bullied with fists or words for being gay. It doesn't protect the woman whose husband beats her up. It doesn't protect those in far-off countries who suffer when we engage in wars of choice because the opponents of those wars were cast as "wimps."

                            There are material changes we can make to our laws that will improve all of those situations, but we also need to do some soul-searching as a nation to ask why those situations are part of our national landscape in the first place.

                            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                            by JamesGG on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 02:44:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly - it's bad enough the MPAA has what (6+ / 0-)

                I like to call the "three fucks rule" where using the word "fuck" more than three times is an automatic R rating (For example, Planes, Trains and Automobiles - a PG movie without the rental car scene).

                I'm not saying PTA should be PG, but the automatic R is a bit excessive. PG-13 is fine. I know I used worse language at 13.

                I don't want the same standards being applied to violence in movies and video games. The entire piece of work needs to be evaluated. Violence in a completely fictional movie needs to be treated differently than violence in an accurate, historical film. Otherwise something like the Abraham Lincoln movie that just came out might get an R rating simply because of the scene where he gets assassinated (do they even show it in the movie? Haven't seen it yet) when in reality, it probably does not deserve an R.

                "How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?" - George Carlin

                by yg17 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:26:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks for the spoiler alert :-) (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SilentBrook, gramofsam1

                  Why did you tell me how Lincoln ends? I was hoping to be surprised by the movie!

                  But on the whole, I don't disagree that we could use a more robust and descriptive ratings system for movies, TV, video games, etc. that goes beyond simply "age appropriateness" to getting at describing what's actually there so that parents can make their own decisions about what's appropriate.

                  But I also think that part of that equation is that we shouldn't dismiss the effect that even fantasy violence can have on the formation of the mind, particularly when that violence is practiced by the "good guys"—people we're told we should identify with and should want to emulate—and presented as something that is good and wholesome rather than something that is regrettable and that leaves scars long after the deed itself is done.

                  I think that in addition to more robust and organic ratings, we need to lower the threshold of what forms and acts of violence we deem appropriate for what point in the person's emotional development, whether that's an industry standard or a parental standard or both (I prefer both).

                  I think this incident should not only incite us to change our gun laws (which need changing) and improve our structures for helping the mentally ill (which need improvement), but also to think critically about the role played by our mediated myths of violence in the perpetuation of violent acts throughout our culture, from wars to mass murder to domestic violence to bullying to verbal abuse.

                  "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                  by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:34:10 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You haven't shown any effect. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kyril, salamanderempress

                    Which launches all your proposals into the realm of fantasy.

                    If you can't explain why Canadians, Australians, and Japanese aren't inspired to violence by video games, you have absolutely no right to assume Americans are so inspired. You're working off your "gut feelings" here, and forgetting that the most important fact about guts is that they are full of shit.

                    Just say you don't like them -- which is a statement of feeling that doesn't need justification -- and leave it at that.

                    "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                    by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:47:54 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  It's sort of laughable (7+ / 0-)

              because no one seems to remember how violent TV used to be. All those Westerns and WWII shows had the good guys mowing down bad guys by the dozens.

              Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað

              by milkbone on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:14:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I hope you're not misconstruing me... (3+ / 0-)

                ...as pining for the halcyon days of the TV Western.

                The old TV shows were just as steeped in our cultural myth of redemptive violence as the contemporary ones are, and even more steeped (in some ways) in violent forms of masculinity.

                No, we need to look critically at our cultural myths as a whole—the myths that are often invisible precisely because even our nostalgia is coated in them—and ask ourselves whether they're the myths we want.

                "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:19:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  There were differences (3+ / 0-)

                You never got to see blood and internal organs splattered all over the place.  You were never allowed to show children being killed.  The designated good guys always won.  Evil was punished. etc...  No, it is a lot worse now.  When the shock of the last one wears off they always need to provide something worse to help sell the next one.  

                There are things we can and must do right now, but let's face it, were a culture steeped in blood.  Violence and death are our favorite entertainment.   Might as well bring back gladiatorial combat.  I wonder how people would deal with real brains being splattered about.

                It is just plain sick.  I worked for years in medical device industry and I've been literally up to my elbows in death.  Memento mori.    Nothing entertaining about it.

              •  the old days (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wishingwell

                the us was a violent society as well.

                Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:38:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  'Cause kids under 17 don't see R-rated (10+ / 0-)

          movies.

          Ever.

          Those of us who grew up in the eighties totally didn't walk around spouting quotes from movies like Aliens and Predator and Terminator at school.

          Really.

          8|

          "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

          by JesseCW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:36:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think it's more about a cultural statement... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SilentBrook, gramofsam1

            ...than it is about access control—though, if I had my druthers, we'd actually use the NC-17 rating more than once in a blue moon, and apply it to some of the more violent R-rated films.

            I think movie ratings do rhetorical work, in speaking for our society and saying "this is something that we do not want our children ingraining into their psyches."

            I also don't think that it was necessarily a healthy or good thing that those of us who grew up in the 80s (of which I'm one) were spouting quotes from movies like Aliens and Predator and Terminator at school. We can say in all earnestness that "we turned out just fine"—but the fact is that we don't know what we might have turned out like, either individually or as a society, if things had been different and we had only seen those movies when we became older teenagers or adults.

            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

            by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:44:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I policed myself and very well on movies... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril, salamanderempress

              ...when I was a young-un.  But mind you, I was scared by Bambi at the tender age of six because of the scene where his mother got killed.  And that killing happened off-screen and it was an animated G-rated movie.

              But even so, I don't think it's up to government to tell people how they spend their leisure time and if you don't want to consume fictional movies and games with violence in them, then don't.  

              Frankly, I'm more concerned with our news media and pundit fear-mongering than I am about The Avengers or Call of Duty.

              •  As another commenter above pointed out... (0+ / 0-)

                ...movie ratings aren't from the government. They're standards set by the industry itself.

                "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 05:05:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I know that :P (0+ / 0-)

                  Not that it stops people from letting the kiddos see what may or may not be appropriate for them.  I've seen young children at R-rated movies because their DNA donors let them in and some acquaintances of mine have been put in the awkward position in game retail stores where parents want to buy an M-rated game for their kids in spite of it being for adults only.   I've had an uncle and aunt sit idly by while their son (who is only a year younger than me and was under the age of 12 at the time) would watch movies that was extremely inappropriate for him at that young age and he was quite the asshole and still is (no one except his immediate family wants much to do with him).

                  That's not really the industry's fault when you have instances of parental fails like that.  Yes, we live in an age of the corrupt corporations, but I think in the instance of what we allow kids to be exposed to, there is a case to be made that there needs to be more parental guidance.

      •  Attitudes like that are what make America (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Boris49, zootwoman

        extremely right wing. Even the Demcoratic party is  - in the global sense - a right wing party when you get down to it. It's just that the Republicans are more right wing.

        You see, you spit it out and reject it because you mistakenly think it's some sort of Christian conservative thing to want to regulate mass media to make it less violent and sex driven. It's actually not and in fact a number of European countries crack down on these things significantly more than the USA, because not basing your entire media on loving human misery tends to foster more productive attitudes in people. There are even bans on even sexist ads. The USA wouldn't have a tv show or commercial left!

        You can "oh brother" me if that's what you want. But I'm fairly sure if we trace your views far back enough, you were "oh brother"ing a lot of things that are gaining popularity now but weren't popular at the specific time.  And I'm speaking not of your ex-Republicanism (if I remember right), but even after your spiritual awakening.

        Were you always for marijuana legalization? Full on gay marriage? Were you always on the green bandwagon? Are you even now for complete equality as it regards to ridding media of sexism, ageism, and any of the other commonly still acceptable isms?

        Yes. Oh brother. I am where you'll be in ten years or so when America hopefully progresses as much as it has in the past ten years. There is an extremely left wing argument for better control of media. It doesn't mean you ban anything. You just limit it like you do with cigarette and alcohol advertising. It's the smart and correct thing to do.

        •  might find this interesting (0+ / 0-)

          to your point

          http://cursor.org/...

          Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

          by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:14:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  From the article (0+ / 0-)

            "it was found that the association between adult criminal violence and childhood exposure to television violence approached statistical significance (P<.10)."

            Approached statistical significance means less than nothing. A p value of greater than .05 is not statistically significant. Moreover, weak correlation suggests strongly that the explanatory power of the regression was somewhat limited.

        •  Sigh (7+ / 0-)

          Liberals generally support evidence-based policy. Cigarettes and alcohol are demonstrably harmful, and they're demonstrably even more harmful to children and adolescents than to adults.

          Present some evidence that violent games have a long-term, statistically-significant positive correlation with violent behaviour, and you'll have a plausible liberal argument for restricting them.

          You can't, though, because there isn't any.

          Sure, there are studies that show that children express more aggression and less empathy immediately after exposure to violent media. But that's about as far as it goes. Modeling violence onscreen produces short-term, small increases in aggressive thoughts and sometimes non-criminal aggressive behaviour, mostly as measured by other 'play'-type activities like hitting toys or 'punishing' a losing opponent with a blast of sound.

          Everything beyond that is speculative...reading MRI tea leaves and concocting stories about how violent games might desensitize the developing brain to violence. The problem, of course, is that I can concoct equally-plausible stories about how violent games might provide a safe outlet for aggression in the same vein as sports and play-fighting (but with even lower risks). And my stories are just as if not more consistent with the available data.

          Some good info here:
          http://www.pbs.org/...

          "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

          by kyril on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:23:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's true, we can't allow ourselves (0+ / 0-)

            to become distracted.  Guns are a problem and I hope no one out there is going to suggest that we need more evidence.

            That said. I will never understand why we are willing to approve of  violence and death as entertainment.  

            N.B. considering something to be unacceptable and banning it outright are two different things.

            •  We approve (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Prinny Squad, salamanderempress

              because it's not real. Like...really, really, not real. At all. There is nothing whatsoever real about it. It's not even real actors pretending to do violent things; it's actually, totally, 100% fake.

              I'm not shooting people in Halo 4. (Or even aliens and robots.) I'm shooting pixels. With other pixels. In fact, that's not even true. No pixels are harmed. I'm pressing a button, which is instructing the console to display a pattern of pixels that looks like a gunshot.

              If I'm successful, the computer will pretend that the thing I shot at died. Temporarily, of course. Nothing actually 'dies' even within the context of the game universe - they're just temporarily defeated. Even chess has a more convincing form of 'death.'

              "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

              by kyril on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:25:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The same argument (0+ / 0-)

                that gun enthusiasts state about target practice. 9 - 10,000 deaths every year in the US by gun makes your unscientific anecdotal laugh fest less funny.

                YOU can tell the difference. YOU are not compelled. YOU haven't let it get to you. Because we all know the entirety of the human experience can be summed up by your personal reactions to stimuli.

                Put down the controller, pick up a science book. Of any sort, really.

                •  The studies are, unfortunately, mixed. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fuzzyguy

                  For obvious reasons, I've looked out for these.

                  I've seen no long term studies; the short term studies have produced mixed results.

                  Believe it or not, those of us who make games do pay attention to this sort of thing.  It's less clear cut than your comments presume.

                  My advice to parents, of course, is to pay attention; look beyond the single letter rating to the full description - easily available on the web.  Halo is not Call of Duty.  Call of Duty is not Grand Theft Auto.  You have to know your own kid and know what they'll be able to handle.

                  (I have my own rant about half written on the ESRB, totally unrelated to this incident. Eventually it will appear in my own diaries.)

            •  Why shouldnt we aprove of it? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril, fuzzyguy

              Show us a data based reason why and you will change a lot of minds. So far its all Speculation, and speculation can  be everything. It could be that i strongly believe that all depictions of bears on tv support violence, so i want to ban Winnie the puh. Without having to support my belief with data, just as you dont support yours with data, who is to say I am wrong? maybe without winnie the world would be a perfect place, I just have a gut feeling about that you know, so lets ban him and see......

              "We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn

              by Mudderway on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:56:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I think there ought to be a lot more research (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            xgy2

            I'm from the reality-based world so would not favor regulation without some sort of rational basis. But I do work with victims of violence, both here and abroad, and I truly hate these sorts of video games.  I am willing to accept that there may not be a direct correlation between them and acts of violence.  But I have some passing familiarity with the Democratic Republic of Congo, Colombia, and Iraq - and there really is a synergy between the video and film images of violence and the way that child soldiers dress, refer to their actions and to the construction of what they consider manhood.  What happens here in the US doesn't stay here, and way too many kids imitate violent action videos and films and games in situations in which the consequences are far more severe.  Would they be child soldiers and killers without these video games, and merely construct their identity differently with the same end result?  Perhaps.  The problem is, how the hell does one do a control group study, ethically or not, to test this sort of thing?  

            There may be no proof because proof is hard to demonstrate.  All I know is that these games make me sick... even as I accept a first amendment argument for not banning them.  Should rigorous evidence exist that they do lead to more violence, then regulation is in order.  In the meantime, boys (and alleged men) who get off on this could be subjected to at least a little ridicule or social pressure for getting off on shooting virtual people.  

            “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

            by ivorybill on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:54:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You too? (6+ / 0-)

              You're super smart.

              This thread is a perfect example of how quickly the NRA and Gun nuts can distract people from talking about gun ownership regulation for the sake of public safety and instead have them spinning their wheels talking about limiting the 1st Amendment by adding regulation to an already regulated industry.

              Video games did not kill those kids.

              A crazy kid with firearms killed those children.

              And I think that it is probably provable beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Newtown shooter and the others like him could have been watching nothing but the Teletubbies and Barney for their entire lives and they would still be mentally ill.

              •  No this thread is a perfect example (0+ / 0-)

                of how warped the GOP has people like you. You perceive perfectly acceptable and logical regulation of violent materials as a GOP Christian thing, so you reject it. This despite the fact that socialist progressive nations are totally on board with such measures.

                I am not distracted. My very first reply stated precisely that I was staying it should be both (and quite a few other aspects of society). You just have the typical attachment to easily obtained violent materials in the way that the gun owners want a free for all of guns.

                No one said violent games kill kids. And the guns didn't inspire them to kill. Nor did guns by themselves desensitize those kids. Nor did said guns provide a romantic context for their usage.

                Look at you. Screaming about the first amendment and regulation just because someone thinks that showing a 13 year old callous, even romanticized killing, might not be a bright idea. Among other things.

                You are acting more right wing than you know, particularly in the global context. With the same kind of logical underpinnings.

            •  And I want to add one other thing for (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OHeyeO, Prinny Squad, ivorybill

              you to think about...

              My oldest friend in the world has a troubled son.

              She is perhaps one of the sweetest and kindest people who walks this earth.  She has had three sons.  Two of whom are reflections of their Mother in how they engage the world.  The other son, though, has been trouble since he was born.  

              This kid was bullying his older brother at nine months.  He is in his late teens or early twenties now and over all of those years the stories that I've heard from my friend about the trials that she's gone through trying to manage this one son have been amazing.  

              I remember when he was about three years old, he took some sweet stuffed animal from one of his brothers and destroyed it in a sick and twisted way.  My friend has spent her time as his mother trying to expose him to "nice" things, "happy" thoughts, "good" movies, etc. and that kid has found a way to twist or destroy or sadistically attack whatever she's offered him.  He can't be trusted with animals.  He can't even be trusted with his siblings who have learned to basically flee when he gets into one of his tears.

              No one did anything bad to this kid.  His Mother would NEVER allow that to happen to him.  He started out that way and he's going to be that way for the rest of his life.  The thing that has always stuck with me about the sadistic attack on the stuffed animal is that I know that at that point in his young life he had NEVER seen anything from Hollywood or the video industry that was violent.  At just nine months he had not even had his eyes open very long, he barely had any command of language and nor did he have life experience that would have impressed him one way or another to express "good and bad" behavior.  The anger, aggression, violent tendencies were totally natural for him.

              My friend has spent his lifetime trying to help him and to restrain his dark and dangerous tendencies.  Video games are the least of her worries.  If he got a gun, though, she'd be rightfully panicked - as should we all - trust me.  A trip to the Zoo with that kid when he was about eight was scary enough for me and kids never scare me.  The kid was scary at the Zoo!  All I know is that input was not this kid's problem.  It was output from him that we all had to worry about.

              All FWIW.

              •  Learn what anecdotal means (0+ / 0-)

                Listen, your stories might make you feel good on a broad range of topics on this site, but as it regards to statistical data and broader more scientific discussions on what goes into making society more violent, it is inappropriate.

                I get it. You like video games. If you think they're innocent, make a game about violent rape. It's just a game, right? But killing is okay. Very consistent. And again, as has been posted many times over, the correlation between violent media (not just games in specific, you're just attaching yourself to something few have mentioned and is newer so less studies) has been established.

                Go youtube Manhunt 2. Tell me why that's appropriate for anyone, let alone a 12 or 13 year old. Go get it for this friend of a friend of a friend of an anecdote of yours. Should be safe. Just pixels, right?

                •  I don't play video games. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ivorybill

                  I don't watch violent films.

                  I don't have weapons.

                  I have been tested by an attack on my life and it has been proven that I am not likely to want to kill anyone else on this earth even when provoked by people trying to take mine.

                  That's the most powerful "video game" I've ever had to play.

                  I marvel at people who will join the military and believe that they are prepared to kill another human being.  I'll bet that there is some portion of people in that group who are more like me than not.

                  I know from my study of history that art is more a reflection of a society than it is a primary driver of that society's behaviors.  This theory also basically proves out on the individual level in that the expression of emotion of various artworks that are provoked in the patrons is generally in the form of intake and rarely results in output.  In other words, you can look at a violent image, porn or the happiest picture of life around and the people experiencing that art in whatever form are not going to do anything more than take it in.  They aren't originators - or rather they rarely are originators of the ideas - and they are more often than not incapable of emulating any of the scenarios in their own lives for whatever reasons.

                  •  Your theory (0+ / 0-)

                    is not peer reviewed, not scientific, and what is called "anecdotal" even if all of your claims are taken at face value.

                    You are not the only one here with military experience and if you think that story gets you off the hook from going and seeing what I'm talking about, it doesn't.

                    Go ahead. It's on youtube. Manhunt 2. First one that'll come up is "all the executions in manhunt 2" LOL We're talking literally the only goal of this game is to sneak up on people and kill them in increasingly gruesome ways. And not happy slappy CoD ways either. We're talking a lot worse than even that. Ice pick in the head. Suffocated with bags. This isn't Saving Private Ryan stuff. This is snuff. And I'm not even saying ban it. Just make it less profitable. Let the industry largely regulate itself through economic considerations.

                    I reject your excuse making for violent media every bit as much as I reject the NRA's excuse making that guns aren't sentient and kill people of their own accord (yet).

                  •  There's a lot we agree on (0+ / 0-)

                    First, I don't dispute that the NRA is trying to divert attention from their own sick profiteering in order to shift the conversation.  Understood and agreed.  I'm personally in favor of an assault weapons ban, licensing gun ownership, much stricter controls on access in general, and using taxation on ammunition, etc.  I also don't dispute the solid evidence of correlation between easy availability of guns leads to a much higher death rate... although truly getting that death rate down might require even tighter controls than are politically feasible.

                    Second, you are exactly right that some children for some unknown reason become sociopaths, and this may have nothing to do with parenting.  Some kids seem to be missing empathy, and when that is combined with uncontrollable anger, those kids are dangerous.  I wish it could be otherwise for your friend, and her boy should never have access to firearms. It may well be that Adam Lanza was going to go down this violent path regardless of whether he had as much access to games simulating killing as he did.

                    My point was not to divert attention from the need for gun control or claim that video games create sociopaths. It's more about the sort of culture we want, and the ways in which American culture is so ubiquitous throughout the world, and how that influences our societal tolerance for violence.  I was in Colombia a few months ago and saw the incredible saturation and penetration of the most violent films, games and media from the US, and was struck by the way that these cultural markers are embraced by criminal gangs.  It's just not healthy the way this glorification of violence and equation of manhood with killing has infected Colombian society (and Mexican society). Now there are reasons driving this violence that have nothing to do with video games - namely 50 years of warfare against the poor, the endless war between and against narcotrafficantes, and a low-level civil war over access to natural resources.  But I don't think this cultural embrace of violence helps in any way.  Colombian partners have to deal with human heads washing up in the mangroves behind their houses - and they are terrified by these young men imitating imported films and video games in their clothing, language, and behavior.  Maybe this is a chicken and egg situation - the endemic violence begets a market for violent media which begets more violence.  Regardless, it doesn't help - and my point was that if there actually was some rigorous way of demonstrating a causal link between these materials and violence, then regulation should be up for discussion.  That evidence does not exist now, so I'm not advocating for regulation.

                    “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

                    by ivorybill on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 06:41:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  You are not nearly as (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Practical Progressive, fuzzyguy

                  fun or charming as the real Tony Stark.

                  Also, you're still wrong.

                  I played Manhunt 2. I haven't attacked anyone.

                  It was a pretty interesting game. Messed up, sure, but that was the intent. In fact, I thought the dark and twisted storyline was quite creative. I didn't see the twist coming.

                  The game might freak people out (frankly the house scene scared the crap out of me), but it's not going to make someone grab a plastic bag and suffocate someone with it.

                  Hmm.

                  Are you sure you're just not projecting? Because for the rest of us, these games don't have diddly effect on how we act.

                  •  Again anecdotal (0+ / 0-)

                    "I played Manhunt 2. I haven't attacked anyone."

                    I've fired a gun and was trained to fire a gun both as a teen and as an adult. I haven't committed mass murder. Your logic is wrong and it's doubly wrong considering the related topic.

                    So tell me. Since I have never once talked about banning any of that. Never once. What is your specific beef with the avenues I have actually stated? I'll wait while you check to see what my actual argument was, as opposed to the fake straw man one you've created.

                    I am as fun as Tony Stark. You just happen to be a snickering disingenuous Senator Stern type. :)

              •  We had a kid in our Cub Scout den like that (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                inclusiveheart

                Asked a fireman on one of our field trips "What is it like to burn to death slowly?" We finally made his dad come along to meetings to help with him.

                There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu

                by OHeyeO on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 04:01:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Imagine being his dad or mom trying (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OHeyeO

                  to figure out how to negotiate all of the pressures and fears that they live with everyday.

                  It is a testament to my friend's character that she still tries to keep a good attitude and often tells me these stories in the most hopeful, but also completely realistic tone.  I haven't a clue how she hasn't totally lost it over the years.  The desire and commitment to do good things for everyone involved and the public at large reveals what I think is almost super-human strength on her part.  As a society we should be helping her more and I am pretty sure she'd laugh at anyone who suggested that taking video games would solve the problems she's faced with her son.

          •  There is a correlation. (0+ / 0-)

            http://www.apa.org/...

            Your metrics are arbitrary, as is your wording. You can concoct all you want and attempt to falsely narrow the discussion all you want. The studies exist and the evidence is as strong as it ever can be with psychology. It's not as if one type of thing is the cause of all violence, but it has a strong link.

            So yeah, you can feel free to just deny it and justify your violent media however you think you can and maybe you are a true "liberal" and also left wing in many places but you're certainly not left wing when you play and play coy with violent media and its link to more aggressive behavior.

            You'll be where I am in ten years. I don't mind waiting as you and the others evolve. A lot of you were the same ones against gay marriage and pot legalization and ridding workplaces of sexism as much as one can. I was ahead of that curve as well.

            •  That article is specifically about TV. (5+ / 0-)

              Games, as an interactive medium, are fundamentally different from TV.

              Part of the problem with TV is that kids, especially young kids, perceive it as real. Games, on the other hand, are easily understood as play/fantasy.

              The serious long-term effects of TV are also mostly linked to exposure of younger children. Children under 5 almost never play violent games, and even the under-10 set has only limited exposure; the games that usually prompt concerns tend to demand much more advanced eye-hand coordination and spatial reasoning than younger children can manage.

              And I assure you, I won't come around in 10 years. I'm male and under 30. I grew up with games, and so did all of my friends. Our professional trajectories, personal relationships, and creative pursuits are all deeply intertwined with our history/experience with games. You'll have about as much luck convincing us that there's a problem with games as you would convincing our grandparents that there's a problem with church.

              As for your comments about marriage equality and marijuana legalization: As is typical for my generation, I've supported both since long before they were politically viable. The only thing that makes me unusual in that respect is that I learned those positions from my mother.

              "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

              by kyril on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:00:06 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You don't get to limit discussion to what you want (0+ / 0-)

                I have never stated anything about games so you can get beat. I'm sure there are studies on that as well. Not really tracking it down for a guy who says things like this:

                "And I assure you, I won't come around in 10 years. I'm male and under 30. I grew up with games, and so did all of my friends. Our professional trajectories, personal relationships, and creative pursuits are all deeply intertwined with our history/experience with games. You'll have about as much luck convincing us that there's a problem with games as you would convincing our grandparents that there's a problem with church."

                They call that anecdotal. So quit pretending to be the expert here when you don't even know what anecdotal is. You're just making the best specious argument that you can. Kind of like the Global Warming deniers. Go ahead. Show me studies that refute any link between the two. You are aware that studies of this nature can and may show evidence the contrary, right? Right? Bueller?

                •  The studies *are* mixed on games (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fuzzyguy

                  But I don't know of any that suggest it's good for kids to play highly violent games at a young age.

                  I wish Tony Stark's position were completely unjustified.  It isn't; it just isn't black and white.

                  While I don't want to see violence in games banned, I welcome the conversation. If nothing else, it provides a brake on the move toward more and more graphic violence.

                  I would like to see (and haven't) a study focusing on online games - the amount of blatant bullying in the online arenas worry me much more than the content of the games themselves.  (See the sims-online protection racket scandal, for one.)

                •  um (0+ / 0-)

                  Kyril's comment was strictly about violence in video games, you widened the topic back out to violence in media, and he narrowed it back to violence in video games.  Video games are particularly being attacked in this context, and kyril has general and specific knowledge about the subject.

                  Narrowing discussion is perfectly valid when topics covered by a broad brush approach have fundamental differences that may affect outcomes.

                  And you want studies?  Here's a study.

                  http://papers.ssrn.com/...

                  Ten seconds of googling.

        •  You're entitled to your opinion, of course. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Prinny Squad, Mudderway, kyril

          Doesn't make it any less stupid.

          •  Very contructive. (0+ / 0-)

            Don't let the sarcasm fool you, I much enjoy when someone gives me a response that isn't up to snuff. Strengthens my resolve that I'm right. Because if you thought you had  a cogent response, you'd have posted it.

            •  No, (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril, salamanderempress, fuzzyguy

              Sargoth is right.

              Your complete ignorance on this issue doesn't warrant a more indepth response. You don't know what you are talking about.

              If this is a reality based community, we should be sticking to reality, not scapegoating entertainment.

              In summary,

              Note: Does it strike anyone else weird that the guy who is going all Jack Thompson on video games is named Tony Stark?

              •  There is an inherent difference between me n Jack (0+ / 0-)

                And your idea that you don't have to respond substantively is a cop out because you can't. And to compare my arguments to Jack just shows that you're skimming and intentionally ignoring the wide gulf between them.

                In summary: You can call this your community, but I wouldn't because you don't do the community any justice. Immature little jpegs or not. You might want to go to Huffignton Post with what your idea of a discussion is.

                  •  Nothing at all. (0+ / 0-)

                    The more you refuse to engage, the worse it looks for you.

                    •  No need to get mad, good sir. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      fuzzyguy

                      Yes, you lost.

                      Yes, you refuse to provide trustworthy data (to be fair, because it doesn't exist) that reliably supports your position.

                      Yes, the majority of people on this thread, on this site disagree with you.

                      Yes, your argument was based on fearmongering. Demonizing of media, a tactic that has been around us for ages, and was bullshit then, and is still bullshit now.

                      And despite your protest, that's exactly the kind of crap Jack Thompson engages in.

                      But this can be a learning experience.

                      Protip: Next time, I suggest bringing "facts" or "evidence" to the table. Seriously.

                      Miiight help out a bit.

                      It's great to learn, because knowledge is power!

                      You're welcome. ^_^

                      •  10 years ago (0+ / 0-)

                        Those same people would have been near uniformly against same marriage full stop, marijuana legalization, and the idea that a black person could be president in their lifetime.

                        I lost nothing. I engaged, and a few engaged back. You were not among them and posted little pictures. I get the tactic. I've seen trolling. I reply bigger, you reply smaller. I reply smaller, you reply bigger. Shrink and expand, Art of Trolling (and actually War) 101.

                        I did post a massive 15 year long study. Not that you read or are seriously engaging. I actually have the far more nuanced view of media than you do. Not that you're reading or seriously engaging. You see, you're incapable of doing anything but what the other party does. That is to say you'll just bastardize anything you disagree with instead of having an earnest discussion, as I have been.  And you try to act cutesy to deflect from the fact that you don't really know how to argue that well.

                        You say I'm exactly like Jack Thompson. Okay. Name all of the ways that I am like him and I guarantee you in every single aspect, there will be a not-so-subtle difference. No, I'm thinking you go back to jpegs. Wise choice :)

    •  I See The NRA Has Found Someone... (12+ / 0-)

      ...on whom their Jedi Mind Trick works like a charm.

      On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

      by stevemb on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:55:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Feminists as well apparently. (0+ / 0-)

        Because they sure have been banging the drums for decades about shifting away from the, and I don't approve of this term but here it is, rape culture in media.

        I specifically stated my support for gun control. In fact, I trend as far as gun bans except for military and certain civic service. So the NRA isn't exactly a bunch of my bros.

    •  I know you'll get pilloried for saying it ... (4+ / 0-)

      but you're not the only one who feels this way about videos. The pervasiveness of violence in our society is a self-perpetuating phenomenon. Media doesn't get a free pass on its contribution to the problem.  

      Unless people decide that today is not the day to talk about that. /snark

      •  Amen to that. (4+ / 0-)

        The problems that stem from our cultural myth of redemptive violence, particularly where it intersects with our rhetorics about masculinity, go well beyond guns.

        They're manifest when a boy gets beat up at school for being a "wuss" or "gay," they're manifest with the people who cheer for bloodsports like UFC, they're manifest when our nation chooses to go to war rather than look like a "wimp."

        They're manifest in this nation's pandemic of domestic violence, in road rage incidents, in countless assaults and batteries, in racist attacks, and often in our culture's glorification of more subtle forms of violence like verbal abuse.

        Not one of those things I listed above would be affected in the slightest by stricter gun control (which I agree are necessary)—and I'd argue that our cultural myth of redemptive violence, perpetuated by the media, plays a significant role in them.

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:06:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That the Swedish consider an essential (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra Waites

          ingredient to their culture, the idea of Lagom

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          speaks a lot about how far we have to go as a culture. We're still stuck making young boys and girls idolize and swoon over the well intentioned brute.

        •  When we teach girls in elementary school (6+ / 0-)

          that boys chase, hit, and insult them "because he likes you," we definitely have a problem. And we say it where the boys can hear it, too.

          Guys have already been exposed to that lesson over and over again before the same people who teach them that let them near violent video games and movies.

          Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

          by Cassandra Waites on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:33:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I never told my daughter that (0+ / 0-)

            I told her that if some kid of either sex hits you, you run and find a teacher and/or beat him to a bloody pulp.

            I told both my kids that. You don't EVER start a fight, but you don't let somebody beat up on you either. Running away is fine. But if push comes to shove, you fight if you have to.

        •  Redemptive violence, wusses and masculinity (4+ / 0-)

          Did you realize that Bushmaster, the manufacturer of the AR15 used to kill all those kids, actually had an advertising campaign that tried to sell assault weapons by making fun of men who are allegedly frightened of elementary school children?

          Don't believe me?  Check this out:

          http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/...

          Ad text:  "Colin F is just unmanly.  Colin F avoids eye contact with tough-looking fifth graders.  Man card revoked!"

          Check it out.  These weapons are manufactured, advertised and sold to men who buy them because of the equation of masculinity with the power to commit violence.  

          “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

          by ivorybill on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:31:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I expect the criticism. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chrississippi, miriam

        America is not yet left wing enough to admit that steering media towards standards that cordon off violent media like we do cig and alcohol advertising and lowering the standards for attaining a restricted rating to begin with is a good idea.

        I'm not some prude. I'm a Bond film fanatic. I think Indiana Jones is the quintessential 20th century male movie hero. But when Indy shoots a guy in the street and kills a bunch of guys and that's considered good enough for a 13 year old, I have to disagree.

    •  No (9+ / 0-)

      This is classic moral panic. Create an external "enemy", blame it for something and put the onus for demonstrating that it is not at fault onto it. There remains no meaningful evidence that violent video games lead to acts of violence.

      •  That's not what Europeans think. (0+ / 0-)

        Countries go quite a bit farther with banning sexist ads for leading to increased sexism. What is your metric for meaningful evidence. Since we can presume that you've read studies, which studies have said that?

        This isn't a "moral panic". If you think the idea of regulating media so as to put racy and violent content in its proper corner is some right wing idea, it isn't. The idea that it shouldn't be is a libertarian idea at best, something I am not.

        I don't consider violent media immoral. I don't consider it something that should be banned. I enjoy many rated R movies. I'd still like to see them regulated better and with an eye towards not being so easy to become pervasive, choosing to support ideas that cordon off their distribution so as to make them less economically feasible to over-exploit.

        One can't ignore the desensitization that incessant violent and exploitative media causes. Think media isn't persuasive? It doesn't even take violence:

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...

        Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson famously made blue jeans drop because he is a high profile middle aged (loveable) oaf and just made them look that uncool. Media shapes the way we think in a big way, even in silly ways. We have a responsibility to have the most responsible version of media control. I believe in banning guns full stop. I also believe that media should be better regulated.

        •  My criterion is simple (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Prinny Squad, kyril

          Meaningful quantitative proof. There is none because the only studies that have been done have used poor metrics designed to get the results they wanted.

          I don't care which ideology your idea comes from. Ideologies are a waste of the breath needed to define them. Regulation should be made to deal with measurable negative externalities, not moral panic.

          •  Your criterion has been met a long time ago (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Anna M

            http://www.apa.org/...

            Of course you'll just decry any study you don't as being biased. Where have I seen that logic before?

            This isn't a moral panic thing. The need has been there for a long time. It's parallel to the gun debate. You just have this misplaced typically American attachment to your violent media. There's nothing wrong with not having 30 people shot in what is essentially a kids movie.

            It's almost climate science level of denial with you.

            •  Lurking variables (4+ / 0-)

              Kids who watch more TV are also more likely to be from impoverished backgrounds, less likely to have had sufficient parental oversight, and much more likely to have grown up in or around a city - all of which are also correlated with a higher rate of violence.

              Moreover, the study is of a relatively small (N < 500) sample size and uses reaaaally bad methodology. They effectively ask for self reporting from their audience, which guarantees meaningless results.

              Oddly, the only places we tend to see this crop up is in places where the authors have something to sell...

              Moreover, you're still talking about Television and very young children, not teenagers. Eight year olds aren't getting access to M rated games, for the most part. Raising taxes on those games because you don't like their content is just the vindictive act of a self-righteous fool.

              Now get back under your bridge, troll. Your condescension is neither necessary nor interesting.

              •  I don't think so. (0+ / 0-)

                You haven't provided anything to the contrary, you're insanely out of line with your criticisms and at times flat out lying (let's face it, you didn't read it anyway.), and you think you can go on offense? Put up or shut up.

                I don't care about your name calling. And I don't care if you want to go severely out on a Global Warming denial-esque limb to justify feeding your kids a diet of negligence.

        •  Europe? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril, salamanderempress

          Which went nuts over CounterStrike, a game that is nothing but two teams shooting each other?

          Europeans are concerned with sexism since sexist material has been shown to encourage sexist behavior. Violent material has not been shown to encourage violent behavior. If anything, given the trend in youth violent crime, the effect is the reverse.

          "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

          by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:52:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If anything, you're making things up. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            annieli

            http://www.apa.org/...

            15 years. Ok. Wow me with your studies.

            If you want to use a silly example, better to use one that actually is silly. Like Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles.

            •  Try this. (0+ / 0-)

              The graph here begins in 1995, the year after Doom came out, the first mass popular FPS.

              Now show me how youth violent crime has risen. If you can. Because according to the Center for Disease Control, it hasn't.

              "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

              by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:40:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  On top of that.... (0+ / 0-)

              ....the good doctor has cooked his study by making a large assumption without justification:

              Might these results simply be an indication that more aggressive children like to watch violent TV shows? "It is more plausible that exposure to TV violence increases aggression than that aggression increases TV-violence viewing," said Dr. Huesmann.
              If you can't explain the differences in violence between the US and other countries exposed to precisely the same media, then your conclusions are worth nothing. Cyanide kills just as surely in Canada as in the United States, but violent media seems to be much less harmful, if harmful at all, north of the border. You have to look for a factor unique to the United States to explain results that are unique to the United States. There's guns. There's also the malignant after-effects of slavery, something I should have included above. But the media in the US are not uniquely violent.

              "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

              by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:46:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  what's the most paranoia inducing show on TV? (0+ / 0-)

      All of FOX new Anything with Glen Beck.

  •  And Let's Welcome Their Help Strengthening ACA (24+ / 0-)

    and Medicaid mental health coverage, since they are also so fond of contending that mental health is the real culprit.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:38:08 AM PST

  •  Oh, and also, kos, your favorite guy (17+ / 0-)

    Joe Lieberman was all over the news channels yesterday starting the "video games" are the problem conversation.

    Fucking asshole.

  •  I well remember (8+ / 0-)

    the glossy and expensive NRA Campaign that suggested that we restrict violent movies and video games.

    Not!

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:40:02 AM PST

  •  Everyone in the world (30+ / 0-)

    watches these same movies and plays these same video games. What is different about the US? We have an organization like the NRA working to ensure that every sick deviant crackpot has unfettered access to the firearms of their choice.

    •  I think it's simpler than that. The difference is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1

      we have guns easily available to most people.

      That's the reality.

      How it got that way is not as important as bringing about a different reality.

      **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

      by glorificus on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:32:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Funny how the NRA is willing to toss the 1st (31+ / 0-)

    Amendment under the bus to save their precious 2nd Amendment. Assholes.

    To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

    by ontheleftcoast on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:40:15 AM PST

  •  If the NRA truly believes violent games and movies (17+ / 0-)

    are to blame for mass shootings like this, why on earth aren't they out there pushing for a ban on movie violence and video games? Oh wait, that's because this response is utter bullshit, meant to shut down the gun control conversation that this country is having.

    "In an individual, selfishness uglifies the soul; for the human species, selfishness is extinction." -Cloud Atlas, by David Mitchell

    by rigcath on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:40:42 AM PST

  •  "then let's also talk about the First Amendment" (26+ / 0-)

    Yeah, 20 kids died from speech wounds. Some victims suffered as many as 11 speech wounds.

    I am proud to be a Contributor at Courage Campaign Institute's Prop8TrialTracker.com
    @indiemcemopants on Twitter

    by Scottie Thomaston on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:41:06 AM PST

  •  I hope that the NRA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a gilas girl

    have made a really bad judgement call - I fear that they haven't.

  •  Oh for fucks sake, as if there's any comparison (20+ / 0-)

    between pressing a button on a Playstation controller and using a fucking assault rifle.

    That's like saying all those years of playing Mario Kart when I was a kid taught me how to drive and Guitar Hero made me a rock legend.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get going to my sold out gig at Madison Square Garden. I'm running late, thankfully I have plenty of banana peels and turtle shells to get the slow drivers out of my way.

    "How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?" - George Carlin

    by yg17 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:44:48 AM PST

  •  Here we go again. (5+ / 0-)

    I've noticed Chuck Todd has been beating this drum particularly loud on his show.  Who's going to play the part of Marilyn Manson this time?

  •  I really gotta stop playing fruit ninja. (10+ / 0-)

    And I do, in fact, own an 'arsenal' of machetes (upwards of 5-8 by my count: for work, don't ask).

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:46:11 AM PST

  •  TAXES!!! (5+ / 0-)

    They can attack Hollywood to try to distract the goal, but while Congress 'debates' bans they should add a series of taxes on ammo, Internet gun sales, and gun shows that would make buying any assault weapon extremely expensive.

    Treat the gun nuts like Al Capone - use taxes to go after them.

    The Spice must Flow!

    by Texdude50 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:47:00 AM PST

  •  20 children attacked in China (17+ / 0-)

    Not one of them died.  Why?  Because they were attacked with a knife not a gun.  

    Last I checked and heard, kids in China, Japan and most of the rest of Asia play video games as much if not more than we do.

    The problem is not the games, it's the fucking guns.

    This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

    by DisNoir36 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:48:05 AM PST

  •  I think the NRA may find that they have (18+ / 0-)

    awakened a sleeping giant--and that is the parents of America. Mothers--and many fathers-are horrified by what happened on Friday. And we will be damned if we will tolerate another Sandy Hook. The NRA can take their fear mongering rhetoric and shove it where the sun don't shine.

  •  I've played Grand Theft Auto (14+ / 0-)

    and never felt compelled to beat a prostitute to death, shoot up a rival gang, or run over bicyclists in my car.  I've gone into a shopping mall with a rifle and a sight and shot up the place, (even though I felt uncomfortable about doing so) and even managed to escape the cops by jumping into a vehicle and driving around until I found the car wash.

    Does this make me want t do it in real life?  No.  Quite the opposite.  I was a little horrified by how long it took the police in the game to come and get me.  In fact, the only life experience I got from GTA that's been any good is avoiding those cars that come out without warning on the side streets.  I narrowly avoided an accident because of my GTA reflexes.  

    I see you drivin' 'round town with the girl I love / And I'm like / Please proceed, Governor. - Dave Itzkoff

    by Jensequitur on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:50:45 AM PST

    •  That "backfiring" effect (8+ / 0-)

      is something I was really struck by.  I played America's Army for a while (it's supposed to be a recruiting tool, it's released by the DoD).  The thing is, it tries for a high level realism, and as a result, you die really really easily. Not sure how much good that's doing for their recruiting...

      Did get a good adrenaline kick out of it though.

      •  Yeah, (3+ / 0-)

        it really gives you a sense of your own mortality. Even great players die regularly and often (once a minute or so isn't too uncommon against a skill-matched opposing team). Gets you thinking about how long you'd last in real-life combat..and the fact that you don't respawn for the next round.

        "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

        by kyril on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:41:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  In GTA 3, the best place to cause absolute mayhem (4+ / 0-)

      on the first island is , funny enough, right next to the police station. Not sure if it's an easter egg or a bug, but you can get your wanted level up to 6 starts and the cops and army will not get you.

      I've spent hours doing that out of boredom (it's great if you use the all weapons cheat codes and start shooting rockets at the tanks and helicopters) and yet, I've never felt compelled to do that in real life either.

      "How come when it’s us, it’s an abortion, and when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelette?" - George Carlin

      by yg17 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:15:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Japanese and Koreans play many more video (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jensequitur, semiot

      games than any American, but they don't have the mass murders.  The difference?  Regulation of firearms - as they are in all developed countries.  A great article in the Washington Post last weekend posed:

      The deadly shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary is provoking another heated round of the same conversation that the U.S. has after every mass shooting: is there something particular or unusual to our gun culture? The answer, based on this comparative data from the international Small Arms Survey, is that yes, American gun ownership rates are positively unparalleled.
      (emphasis mine)

      They show the charts demonstrating that by any metric we are way out there.  What they fail to show are the large numbers of deaths that we put up with.  Over 30k deaths every year (of course the NRA and their apologists are happy to point out that "only" 10k were homicides, the rest is mostly suicides or "justifiable" killings): that is a death rate of >10 deaths per 100k population ("only" 3-4 per 100k population if we only look at homicides) - this compares to much lower numbers for developed nations (e.g. Canada has one of the highest firearm homicide rates within the OECD at 1.6 per 100k, less than half that of the US).

      Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

      by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:33:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Australia is a tad bit more cilivized (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    twigg, loretta, JesseCW, Miggles, johnosahon

    Than us. Except for Vegemite.

    White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

    by BOHICA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:52:29 AM PST

  •  if lanza was carrying a videogame (11+ / 0-)


    those kids would be in their classrooms with their teachers right now, alive and well.

    "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

    by louisev on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:53:10 AM PST

  •  In other news... (0+ / 0-)

    OJ is still in hot pursuit of the "real killer."

  •  I think we need stricter gun controls... (10+ / 0-)

    ...including blanket bans on certain kinds of weapons, registration and required training for all firearms, et cetera. I agree that NRA is trying to throw up a smokescreen here.

    But I also don't think we should dismiss the role of culture. I think we need to take a good critical look at our cultural myth of redemptive violence, and the ways in which that myth is reinforced by the films, television shows, video games, etc. we produce and consume.

    That is also a problem we have, and our desire to see stricter gun controls—which, as I noted, I am completely in favor of—shouldn't bring us to dismiss that problem out of hand as a "smokescreen."

    Our cultural myth of redemptive violence, particularly where it intersects with our rhetorics about masculinity, leads to all sorts of other problems that don't have anything to do with firearms.

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

    by JamesGG on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:53:46 AM PST

    •  +100 (5+ / 0-)
      Our cultural myth of redemptive violence, particularly where it intersects with our rhetorics about masculinity, leads to all sorts of other problems that don't have anything to do with firearms.

      White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

      by BOHICA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:56:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That would certainly be a step towards (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassandra Waites, tampaedski

      lowering some of the sexism reinforced by most violent movies and TV...

      How about adding 'non-violent conflict resolution' to k-12 curricula?  Back in March, I spent 3 days in the hospital being checked out for a potential heart attack, after being road-raged by some macho ass who felt he absolutely had to confront me over some apparent poor driving on my part that didn't cause an accident, using his car in a highly dangerous fashion and almost causing a wreck himself.  I hadn't even seen him until he zipped past me, then veered in front of me slamming on his brakes multiple times in front of me.  I thought he might be attempting a carjacking, until he finally got a chance to hop out of his car at a stoplight and storm up to pound on my window and rage at me.

      If he's had a gun, I might not be here today.

  •  I guess there are no video games, violent TV (22+ / 0-)

    programs or gory movies in Japan, Germany, Canada, etc.

    Gun homicides 2012

    Japan: 11
    Germany: 158
    Canada: 171

    USA: 9,146

    That 'splains it!

    stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

    by Mother Mags on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:54:54 AM PST

  •  Remove the "tools" used to emulate (7+ / 0-)

    these movies and video games in real-life, aka, guns, and you remove the real-life slaughter.

    Not that the NRA gets that, or wants to get that.




    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
    ~ Jerry Garcia

    by DeadHead on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:55:09 AM PST

  •  I make video games (21+ / 0-)

    I've worked in the video games industry for over a decade and I've been hearing this kind of talk forever. While I do take it seriously -- since many games don't just depict violence -- but revel in it, the solution to the problem is already in place.

    I can assure everyone that video game publishers take the ESRB ratings extremely seriously -- because the retailers do as well. M-rated games are shelved and sold differently, and the ESRB is meticulous about the accuracy of their labeling. Look up the "hot coffee" incident in Grand Theft Auto to see what happens when companies cheat the ratings. Hint: it's expensive.

    Parents need to read those ratings (IT'S ONE LETTER!!) on the outside of the box. If it says "M" for "Mature" then don't let your nine-year-old play it.

    Frankly what makes me more uncomfortable about the games I make (and which I guarantee you've heard of if you know anything about video games) is they reinforce the value of the military-industrial complex. To me, this subliminal message is far more insidious than the overt blood and violence found in many games. It affects not just kids who play it but adults as well. As a player you want the biggest, baddest, bestest weapons and tanks and planes and space ships. The moral of every game's story is: more and better guns = winning. THAT's what sometimes makes me uncomfortable with my job.

    •  You might also think about the depictions (7+ / 0-)

      of women, just sayin',  Many of the games have some of the same kinda problems as much of the comic book world.  There are some games that are fine, a few that are great, but far too many are a bit of a teen's masturbatory fantasy of women--skin tight leather with a gun...ooh baby.

      "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

      by Empty Vessel on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:00:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  At your (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MrBigDaddy, concernedamerican, Anna M

      leisure take 30 minutes and watch Subconscious War.
      A half hour documentary on media, reality & a culture of violence.

      One minute trailer

      White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

      by BOHICA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:07:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  thank you for speaking the truth (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rizzo, SilentBrook

      I create family games as an indie on the side for many of the reasons you speak of.

      I find it crazy that in a culture where violence = entertainment, in a society in where 6 million violent crimes happen each year, and an estimate 3 million more go unreported.  9 MILLION violent crimes each year, that people still think there s no relation to violence in our entertainment, and violence in our culture.

      Its makes me sad some of the responses and comments n this thread.

      Yes guns are a major problem, but they are just one variable in the equation.

      Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

      by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:19:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with you. And yet guns are where we need (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SilentBrook

        to start in the long list of problems that our culture needs to address.

        We have to make a first step.

        That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

        by concernedamerican on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:45:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The reason is that.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mudderway

        ....there's no evidence for your assertions and some people get annoyed at others repeating the same falsehood over and over, as if the more it were said, the more it will be true.

        Other countries have exactly the same violent movies, TV, and games as the US, with a miniscule fraction of the violence in society. Until you can explain that, you had best hold your tongue on anything that goes beyond "I don't like...," a personal statement of preference, which of course is always your right.

        "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

        by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:03:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Where do you get that 9 million number? (0+ / 0-)

        I decided to Google the US crime rate since I thought I had heard that it has been dropping and it has.  What's more, the numbers don't match yours.

        Link

        Now, mind explaining where you are getting your numbers?  From what I can see, the violent crime rate has been dropping steadily since 1991.  It anything there is a correlation between the advent of video games and a reduction in violent crimes.

        Finally, the violent crime rate in 2011 was 1.2 million.  Even at its peak in 1991 it was still less than 2 million.  So where are you getting 9 million from?

        "It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain

        by Quanta on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 04:15:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  They have a point (16+ / 0-)

    Attacking orcs with my elven war hammer is exactly the same as gunning down kindergartners. If only there were more restrictions on video gaaaaaaames!!!

    1993 called, it wants its Tipper back.

  •  Our constitution grants Americans the right to (5+ / 0-)

    own guns, but it also gives Congress the power to enact reasonable laws to protect it's citizens.

    One would think the so-called original constitutionalists would embrace and respect the entire document.

    Nature created the human race, but humans created racism.

    by GrannyOPhilly on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:03:08 PM PST

  •  Enabling murderers (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jaywillie, jfromga, SilentBrook

    That's what the NRA is doing: Enabling murderers.

    And making money by doing so. It's that simple.

    "Where are we to turn? We can only turn to ourselves." ~ Edward M. Kennedy

    by chapel hill guy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:04:45 PM PST

  •  That and One Flew Over the Cuokoo's Nest (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jaywillie, SilentBrook

    blaming liberals for shutting down state mental hospitals.  Never mind of course that mental health services have often been the target of the spending cuts the so much love.

  •  I was perusing the NRA site early this morning (8+ / 0-)

    and happened across what appears to be their daily video "news" shows - one of which is hosted by some lady named Ginny Simone and who had on as a guest Monday apparent firearms expert and NRO/FNC roving utility gasbag John Fund.

    This Ginny woman had it down pat: each and every direct reference to the Sandy Hook victims ended with the word "defenseless."

    "...all of them defenseless."
    "...and they were defenseless."
    "...she was defenseless."

    And then it was right into the mental illness angle with side trips to the "defenseless in a gun-free zone" angle.

    Basically, their cure for drunk driving deaths -- instead of inhibiting a drunk's access to a car -- would be to go after possible causes of binge drinking while putting everyone else in Hum-Vs with side-mounted rockets.

    Republicans did to Michigan what Apple did to iTunes.

    by here4tehbeer on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:07:22 PM PST

  •  Why would NRA need to observe silence (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mmacdDE, SilentBrook

    unless they were somehow implicated? Seriously. Their argument is that killers aren't responsible gun owners and their group is dedicated to responsible gun use so they can't be held accountable for the actions of a madman. Well if they buy their own BS it would mean that they might make a statement deploring the violence (like every other goddamn organization in the fucking country), while leaving their Facebook account open and generally not acting like villains in a Bond movie.

  •  OT, sort of (0+ / 0-)

    I would really like to share this on my FB page.  Please bring back the share button.

    Don't you want as many people as possible to see this stuff?  My FB page was filled with DK diaries but since you've gotten rid of the share button there is not a one on it.  

    If there is a way to post this on my FB, please enlighten me.  And everyone else who is as technically inept as I am.

    Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

    by Miss Blue on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:08:18 PM PST

    •  Copy the URL (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miggles

      And paste in your FB timeline.

      White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

      by BOHICA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:11:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  We ARE thinking of the gun manufacturers, NRA (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Over the Edge, SilentBrook

      We are thinking about these manufacturers in the appropriate way.
      So is Cerberus, according to another diary.
      So is Dick's retail business.

      I'm even thinking of a local business that duped our local government into approving a million dollar block grant to refit a industrial building for a guy who manufactures accessories for assault rifles. Our stupid, stupid, local very blue government. Against copious evidence that these assholes were lying on their application. Against protesters. Against the city attorney's advice.

      I'll be investigating and finding more evidence. Hopefully, our new left-leaning statehouse will prosecute this asshole for fraud. He's already lost cases in two other states.

      So yeah. We ARE thinking of the manufacturers.

      "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

      by GrumpyOldGeek on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:17:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  First time I played Dig Dug... (7+ / 0-)

    I tore up the parents' backyard

  •  uh, no.... (5+ / 0-)
    National Rifle Association -- which has remained silent since the shooting, chiefly to allow for a proper period for mourning
    They have remained silent chiefly to figure out their next talking points.  And all the craven gun-supporting lawmakers have also kept silent, chiefly to wait for the NRA to distribute those talking points.

    If this is all they've got, they're not only evil, they're also pathetic.

    “If we, citizens, do not support our artists, then we sacrifice our imagination on the altar of crude reality and we end up believing in nothing and having worthless dreams.” ~ Yann Martel

    by SottoVoce on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:10:19 PM PST

  •  to say (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rizzo

    to say that there is any easy solution to violence in this country is ridiculous.

     Mass shootings is a problem, but its just one of many violence related problems we have in this country.  To act as if violence=entertainment has no relation to violence in a culture is ridiculous.

    This is a deep problem, worthy of deep discussions and debate.

    Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

    by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:12:58 PM PST

  •  If video games led to violence (5+ / 0-)

    we'd expect Japan to have the highest homicide rate in the world.  

    Barack Obama for President

    by looty on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:15:51 PM PST

    •  actually.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rizzo

      there are quite different in many areas. Pokemon and Mario brothers hardly the same as top sellers here.

      http://en.rocketnews24.com/...

      http://www.forbes.com/...

      Pokemon versus Call of Duty Black Ops.  See the difference?

      Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

      by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:25:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Their per capita murder rate is 1/12th (0+ / 0-)

        ours.

        How about their FPS sales?

        "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

        by JesseCW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:48:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  so you think (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annieli

          we get rid of guns, our violence problem goes away in this country?  I say its much deeper than that.

          Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

          by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:52:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd say there's never been the least bit of (3+ / 0-)

            credible evidence, despite 30 years of concerted effort to produce some, that video games are linked to violence.

            I'd see it's as laughable and unsupported an assertion of causality as the anti-comic book nonsense of the early 50's.

            "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

            by JesseCW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:19:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you simply never looked (0+ / 0-)

              Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

              by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:22:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  40 year old research not duplicated? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sagesource, salamanderempress

                "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                by JesseCW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:25:33 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  you just stated (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  annieli

                  that such research never even existed.

                  Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                  by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:36:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well then.... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Prinny Squad

                    ....I'll state the obvious. That research was fraudulent.

                    Exciting media get people excited. If you compare a CounterStrike player with a chess player, the former will of course be more excited.

                    Does that translate into real-world violence? We have the trend of the last thirty years in youth violent crime to show us that any effect is highly unlikely.

                    "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                    by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:07:39 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

                      and you have a phd and better sources or research then Ohio state University?  I doubt it.

                      The subject is deep and multi faceted, to think otherwise is follishness

                      Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                      by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 06:13:57 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  umm (0+ / 0-)

              Violent Video Games Reduce Brain Response to Violence and Increase Aggressive Behavior, University of Missouri Study Finds

              http://munews.missouri.edu/...

              Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

              by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:24:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The least violent generation of young people (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sagesource, Mathazar, Prinny Squad

                this nation has ever produced have grown up on violent video games.

                They're half as violent as those of us who grew up on Pac Man and Donkey Kong.

                The logical conclusion is that games about jumping over barrels cause violent behavior, games involving shooting life like zombies in the head prevent it.

                "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                by JesseCW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:27:16 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  nothing logical (0+ / 0-)

                  about your assumptions at all.  Thats the problem.

                  Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                  by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:29:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Then why is there no reflection.... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Prinny Squad, salamanderempress

                    ....in real world crime figures?

                    You are wedded to a falsehood.

                    "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                    by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:08:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  and as I pointed out (0+ / 0-)

                      according to your flawed logic, since violence has gun down, and guns have become more numerous, guns therefore could have no relation to violence.

                      See how simple and ridiculous your assumption and logic is?

                      Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                      by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 06:15:49 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Epic fail, as the kids say. (0+ / 0-)

                        Violence has gone down more in countries outside the United States which have strict gun regulations. The murder rate in Canada, for instance, is at a fifty-year low, despite Canadians consuming virtually the same media as Americans. This indicates that the drop in violence is due to some cause present in the whole developed world, and suggests that the US rates did not drop more because of the fact the US is awash in guns.

                        See what happens when you try to argue without knowing all the facts?

                        "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                        by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:00:09 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  you still dont get it (0+ / 0-)

                          it was to show your flawed logic, but you just dont seem to be able to grasp the point.

                          Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                          by MrBigDaddy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:17:38 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  you havent shown one fact (0+ / 0-)

                          I have shown research after research. You make assumptions like all the world's culture and media are exactly the same, its NONSENSE.

                          Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                          by MrBigDaddy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:26:22 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Violence has gone down all over the First World. (0+ / 0-)

                        And it's gone down more outside the US. Canada, for example, is at a fifty-year low in the murder rate. The overall rate in the US has gone down, but the fact that the US rate is far higher than other countries remains. There is some unique cause that keeps the US rate much higher than that in other developed nations, and it isn't video games or media violence. Canadians play the same games and watch virtually the same media as Americans. Why doesn't the effect you assume have the same results? Because there is no effect.

                        You forgot to check a basic fact: whether the violent crime rate had gone down outside the US. See how simple and ridiculous your assumption and logic is?

                        "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                        by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:06:33 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Sorry for the double post. (0+ / 0-)

                          The first one disappeared, and repeated refreshings didn't get it back, so I assumed the system had eaten it. My apologies. Once was enough.

                          "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                          by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:07:41 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  here (0+ / 0-)
                      Research to date justifies sustained efforts to curb the adverse effects of media violence on youths. Although our knowledge is incomplete, it is sufficient to develop a coherent public health approach to violence prevention that builds upon what is known, even as more research is under way. Unlike earlier Federal research reports on media violence and youth (National Institute of Mental Health, 1982; U.S. Surgeon General's Scientific Advisory Committee on Television and Social Behavior, 1972), this discussion takes place within a broader examination of the causes and prevention of youth violence. This context is vital. It permits media violence to be regarded as one of many complex influences on the behavior of America's children and young people. It also suggests that multilayered solutions are needed to address aggressive and violent beha
                      Regardless of government and other interested groups' attempts to limit the amount of violence reaching American families, families themselves play a critical role in guiding what reaches their children. Whether by adopting V-chip technology for home television programming, by using Internet violence screening, or simply by monitoring closely children's use of televisions, computers, and video games, parents can limit and shape their children's selection of, interaction with, and response to media violence.
                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...

                      Surgeon General report on youth violence, basically concludes the points I have been trying to make

                      Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                      by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 06:24:27 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Bureaucratic bafflegab. (0+ / 0-)

                        A bone tossed to Lieberman and his ilk.

                        "our knowledge is incomplete"

                        "more research" is needed

                        "one of many complex influences"

                        "multilayered solutions are needed"

                        What that says to me is "We don't really know if your obsession is justified, Senator, but we don't want to argue with you."

                        "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                        by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:11:43 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  wow (0+ / 0-)

                          you have all the answers, who knew.  Science and research are just stoopid?  where have I heard that line before?

                          Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                          by MrBigDaddy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:19:56 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

            •  umm (0+ / 0-)

              Violent Video Games can Increase Aggression says APA

              http://www.apa.org/...

              Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

              by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:26:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  umm... (0+ / 0-)

              Polman, J., Orobio de Castro, B. & Van Aken, M. (2008). Experimental study of the differential effects of playing versus watching violent video games on children's aggressive behavior. Aggressive Behavior, 34(3), 256-264.

              do i need to go on?

              Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

              by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:26:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Can you erase the juvenile murder rate (0+ / 0-)

                being cut in half in 20 years while access to violent video games has exploded?

                "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                by JesseCW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:28:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

                  because kids grow up and do things, they dont stay the same age.  And murder isnt the only violent crime in america

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                  Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                  by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:33:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And...?? The kids who grew up on these games (3+ / 0-)

                    are 15-25 right now.  

                    That's when people are most likely to commit violent crimes.

                    And they're not doing it.  They're very busily, in droves, not doing it.

                    "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                    by JesseCW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:39:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  9 million (0+ / 0-)

                      9 million violent crimes last year.

                      but lets follow your logic, guns in the us are also at record levels, so guns cant be the problem either then.

                      so I guess according to you, there really isnt a violence problem in the US,  who knew

                      Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                      by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:51:18 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You've lost. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Prinny Squad

                        That's what happens when a flawed theory hits the real world. You can't explain what's in front of your face.

                        "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                        by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:09:45 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I what? (0+ / 0-)

                          I cant explain it?  I let the Ph'd help explain it, who have done research on the subject.

                          I'll be awaiting your phd work that counters it.

                          Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                          by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 06:12:15 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  is the surgeon general incorrect as well? (0+ / 0-)

                          Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                          by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 06:25:10 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

                            Check the graph here and show me the epidemic of youth violence. Remember, this graph begins just when truly violent video games became popular.

                            But there's no epidemic. Rates dropped sharply, and then stabilized.

                            If you can't show an effect in the real world, you don't have any justification to imagine one. You have the right to your own feelings, but not to your own facts.

                            "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                            by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:37:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have the facts and research (0+ / 0-)

                            you have little more than ignorant opinion.

                            so according to you, what we are doing as a nation, glorifying violence is working, so we just need to up it to even more glorification. Show people killing each other 24 /7 and then we will really have no violence.

                            anyway, have a great day. You dont even seem to think there is a violence problem in this country so talk about denial

                            Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                            by MrBigDaddy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:23:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  the graph (0+ / 0-)

                            also begins where gun sales in the US skyrocket. so according to you guns therefore cant be any part of the problem either.  See how your "logic" fails at every level?

                            We know guns are part of the problem, just as we know culture issues are as well.

                            Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. projectreindeergames.org

                            by MrBigDaddy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:57:32 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  And as with the anti-comics era, (0+ / 0-)

              there's an issue of just who the target audience and actual audience of the media in question actually are.

              The comic book fear-mongering was in part due to some highly graphic horror comics of the time that were not intended to be viewed by anyone younger than older teens and on the whole were not. A few people got it in their heads that all comics were for younger readers and raised the What About The Children? fears.

              (The anime and manga readers in the US are now getting a bit of another wave of that, because Japan never had a corresponding wave. I've got  manga that are clearly labeled For Older Teens due to the fact the subject matter is very adult -- Fullmetal Alchemist covers war crimes, war orphans, PTSD, and similar themes -- and the corresponding anime usually aren't shown during daylight hours in the US, and yet some people think they must be for kids simply because they're animated.)

              The Comic Code was at one point so restrictive that A Very Special Issue of Spiderman warning about drug use was denied code approval even though the government approved of the plot.

              We've already got the video game rating system. It takes a willing dupe (or an unwary parent) over the cutoff age for a kid or teen to get their hands on an adult-rated game. The NES and SNES users of yesteryear now have PS3s and WIIs and souped-up PC gaming systems... and often count in the violent video game sales figures. People who are nearly thirty or over thirty, people with advanced degrees, people who are on the other side of the teacher's desk now.

              And the games are rated, as I understand it, based on the most bloody graphics standards available in-game, so not all players are even playing the version of the game that got the rating! Portal 2 even had to drop a blood effect to stay at E10+ even though there is no player-useable weapon in the game and it was entirely a player-character injury warning.

              Any actual look at the effect of video game violence on teens would need to look at games that have actual player-caused violence and any statistical look would have to filter out sales to people not in the target age range of the study (which is hard to do when Mom may be buying for herself and making sure her kids can't get to the game media).

              Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

              by Cassandra Waites on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:06:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It wasn't just the violence... (0+ / 0-)

                ...that the comic-haters objected to.  Remember, they also came up with the mythical Batman-Robin Gay Romance That Was Never There. In the 1950's! :P  How times have changed when first Archie Comics decided to marry a gay character to his partner and now recently Marvel has taken the mutant Northstar off the bachelor market by his own same-sex marriage to his partner. (And they hinted for years that Mystique and Destiny were lovers.)  Not to say that the haters didn't object; they just don't have the clout that they used to have.

                Thank Goddess they ditched that Comics Code.  It was just freaking stupid to begin with.

        •  IM not saying (0+ / 0-)

          guns arent a problem, I'm saying they arent the ONLY problem.

          Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

          by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:52:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Guns are, however, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW

            a way bigger and more material cause of shootings than even the most violent of video games.

            Barack Obama for President

            by looty on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:12:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  they allow for the (0+ / 0-)

              violence impulse to get way more deadly, and I agree they need more regulation etc, but unless we also address where the violent impulse comes from in the first  place, we still have a major problem

              http://cursor.org/...

              Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

              by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:20:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'll correct that... (0+ / 0-)

                "where the violent impulse comes from, limited to the United States"

                Because those games sure aren't having the effects you claim anywhere else.

                "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                by sagesource on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:11:49 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  and you didnt even read the link (0+ / 0-)

                  and research, which proved in fact, it did and does.  But why let facts and research get in the way of your ignorance.

                  Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

                  by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 06:29:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Everything is a vacuum, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MrBigDaddy, SilentBrook

    nothing relates to anything else, everything that happens has only one cause. Right?

    Stats about video games and violence mean nothing.

    Multiple constant wars: couldn't possibly effect society.

    Shellshocked vets: didn't happen.

    No mental health care for most: not a factor either.

    Pleeze.

  •  Sell more real guns because fake guns. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rigcath, Miggles, teloPariah, SilentBrook

    This was predictable. They want to sell more real guns because Hollywood can sell fake ones! It took them a few days to coordinate the response. "We can do nothing". McConnell gave us the most ugly infamous historic statement.

    Look at it. I'm no grammar expert but that is one ugly statement. "We can do nothing..." and subordinate mush and he said it to 300M people. He can't do his job to protect you. He can only do his job to protect the political strategy of his multi-millionaire friends to take over governments with this petty political issues for thrill seekers.  

    So we stand with the people of Newtown today and in the days ahead. We can do nothing to lessen their anguish, but we can let them know that we mourn with them, that we share a tiny part of their burden in our own hearts. And that we lift the victims and their families and the entire community in prayer.
    emptywheel's blog: Complicit in 20 Children’s Death, Mitch McConnell Claims He Can Do Nothing

    And all of the GOP owned media and hacks have come up with the same response. We can do nothing. NRA we can do nothing. Oh, except buy more guns!

  •  Black Ops 2 sold 11 million units in one week (6+ / 0-)

    Just this ONE video game sold 11 million in ONE WEEK!  Why didn't I hear about 11 million citizens who took their Uzi's outside and blew everyone apart?  

    Because it DIDN'T HAPPEN!  They will say it's movies, games, etc.  but the one thing we DO know happened is that a young man took a military-style assault weapon into a CLASSROOM OF FIRST GRADERS and killed them all.

    If there truly IS a connection between violent video games, etc., why isn't a mass shooting spree happening every hour on the hour in the country???

    •  9 million (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rizzo

      9 million violent crimes each year in the US.  If its only against 1 person I guess it doesnt count?

      Project Reindeer Games- Exclusive Family Friendly PC Games to Give, Play and Share for Free. www.projectreindeergames.org

      by MrBigDaddy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:29:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  seriously?? (0+ / 0-)

        violent crime doesn't even GET mentioned unless they take out a huge swath of people.  Are you saying that the 9 million violent crimes are all because of video games and movies??

      •  Where are you gettting that statistic (0+ / 0-)

        I decided to Google the US crime rate since I thought I had heard that it has been dropping and it has.  What's more, the numbers don't match yours.

        Link

        Now, mind explaining where you are getting your numbers?  From what I can see, the violent crime rate has been dropping steadily since 1991.  It anything there is a correlation between the advent of video games and a reduction in violent crimes.

        Finally, the violent crime rate in 2011 was 1.2 million.  Even at its peak in 1991 it was still less than 2 million.  So where are you getting 9 million from?  

        "It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain

        by Quanta on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 04:14:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I assume there will always be people (4+ / 0-)

    who want to do harm to others. And I know that it's easier to keep guns out of their hands than to change their brains.

    Yet the conservative proof that guns don't kill people is to claim that ideas kill people. It just keeps getting dumber.

    Money doesn't talk it swears.

    by Coss on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:26:24 PM PST

  •  Nobody murders 28 people with a big hammer (4+ / 0-)

    or a bow and arrow or a shield or fusion powered armor suit.

    I think I'm gonna pass on the "violent movies did it" excuse.

    "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

    by JesseCW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:28:50 PM PST

  •  One sad difference (9+ / 0-)

    between us and Australia.

    In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.
    Their tragedy inspired overwhelming support for gun control. What do we get? A ten-year high! But wait...
    Following the devastating mass shooting in Newtown, Conn., support for stricter gun control laws is now the highest it's been in a decade and has surged 18 points since the spring of this year, according to a new CBS News poll.

    Fifty-seven percent of Americans now say gun control laws should be made more strict, according to the poll, conducted Dec. 14 - 16.

    There is nothing so ridiculous that some philosopher has not said it. -- Cicero

    by tytalus on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:30:21 PM PST

  •  Just got back from Walmart. (4+ / 0-)

    For sale, for the front lawn of holiday homes, is a giant snowman holding a rifle.  There was a huge display of them and these are the kind you blow up.  About 4 foot high.  The snowman is dressed up in a fatigue shirt sporting a hunting rifle in his hand.  Is this really necessary Walmart?

  •  I gotta an idea (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SilentBrook, mmacdDE

    Since the only thing our Government will listen to is $$$$$, spoken loudly and frequently, let's find a lobbying effort with enough clout to keep the NRA from buying more politicians.

    Remember back in the '90's when tourists were getting ambushed in Florida?  IIRC, several European nations were putting advisories out, suggesting people spend their money elsewhere . . .

    I say every country whose citizens spend elebenty-billion buckaroos on tourism in the US, should put out a formal Travel Advisory - you are just as safe in the United States of America as you would be in say, the Sudan.  You might not get kidnapped - that's not our thing here - shot in the head, yes, kidnapped, no.  You might not be sexually assaulted, true, but a visit to the Mall of America should probably come with some cautious thought.  

    And you might not want to take in too many national parks, these days, since the Right to Bear Arms also means the Right to Arm Bears, and every 16-year old in Yellowstone is rolling with some serious effing heat.

    Kill the tourism industry.  Stop it in its tracks.  Then let's let the NRA fight it out with the Hotel, Gaming, Entertainment, Amusement Park, Significant National/Regional/Local attraction lobbies.

    I would take grim amusement from watching those two factions see how many Congress Critters they get at fire-sale prices.

    Don't practice. Train.--Brian Harvey

    by luvsathoroughbred on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:38:25 PM PST

  •  video games (6+ / 0-)

    Sounds like such a good place to lay blame - except that Detroit has had 358 homicides this year, and sister city Windsor, Ontario has had 1. Same video games.

    “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” ~ John Steinbeck

    by susanthe on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:42:35 PM PST

  •  Here is a link for the same snowman. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SilentBrook

    here.

    By the way, I called up and told the manager that I thought we could all live without this snowman and that I was coming back with my camera and a news crew.  We'll see.

  •  Retool? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SilentBrook

    That's their argument?  Retool for what?  They're waging a war on us?  WTF?

    Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

    by yet another liberal on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:46:11 PM PST

  •  Thank you Markos! (0+ / 0-)

    Recommended. Tipped. Hot listed. To be quoted from.

    To talk without thinking is to shoot without aiming - Maguire, Robison, and Maines

    by Captain Sham on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:47:08 PM PST

  •  All my words are gone. Thanks for writing this. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SilentBrook, mmacdDE

    Hateful, contemptible things. How can you be human and believe the NRA crap? I think of my little grandchildren, ages 8, 6, almost 5, 9 months. I still keep crying for the little ones in Newtown.

  •  This is sweet.. (0+ / 0-)

    Sitting and watching the social engineers fall apart in public. They thought they were untouchable with the fundy religious cover provided so conveniently for them post 911.

     These "secularists", they're "businessmen". They were just joking about that God stuff. They're the core of the right and they are so empty handed pretending to give a shit about anything other than suburban hatriotism, guns, and their own mediocre ability to "earn" lots of money. They hate American democracy more than anything.

     Some regulation, a fair tax, and they cry like they're lit on fire. Maybe they'll light each other up next? Seems very possible. "I'm Anti-Government, BOTH parties are *just as*corrupt, WAAAAH WAAAAAAH", it's like a rock was turned over.  

    Newly and surprisingly centrist? Try www.getequal.org for your Blue Dog needs.

    by teloPariah on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:50:53 PM PST

  •  like i've been saying for years (0+ / 0-)

    there is no constitutional right to sell guns.

    time to close the spigot.

  •  Hey guys, (0+ / 0-)

    how many of you saw the article in the business section of this morning's NYT, front page left, explaining just which hedge funds owned which gun manufacturers, Cerebus and the like, who have their own interest in this which should not be ignored, just because of the not really improbable place much heeded by Rs, that it comes from.

  •  Lets make the law where a gun can only have (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VictorLaszlo, mmacdDE

    ONE round. That way if somebody survives they have a shot at taking the shooter down before they reload!

    American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

    by glitterscale on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:03:47 PM PST

    •  Bullet control. (3+ / 0-)

      A bullet should cost five thousand dollars. There's no innocent bystanders if a bullet costs five thousand dollars.

      /Chris Rock

      It is more important to be a confident and articulate speaker than to know jack shit about anything.

      by VictorLaszlo on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:09:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And no Internet sales of ammo (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VictorLaszlo

        Ban it from being shipped to a residential address. By any carrier. Make it a huge fine, with jail time for the CEO.

        You want ammo, you have to buy it in person. And show ID. And be photographed. And you can only buy 100 rounds a month, with all sales tracked in a central database.

        However, if you go to a shooting range, you can buy all the ammo you want, but it must not leave the premises. They can even keep it for you if you don't use it all.

        It's not shooting. It's shooting in places where people get killed.

  •  So... the NRA doesn't want kids to learn (0+ / 0-)

    to shoot at human targets?

    OK, then. :/

    "If we're going to talk about the Second Amendment, then let's also talk about the First Amendment, and Hollywood, and the video games that teach young kids how to shoot heads.

    It is more important to be a confident and articulate speaker than to know jack shit about anything.

    by VictorLaszlo on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:08:24 PM PST

  •  At the end of the day we'll do nothing. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    infinitygoddess

    I predict that no meaningful reform will come about.  There is no politician of power with the courage to take this on, and it seems like most Americans think their right to own military grade weaponry is a basic human right, more important than food, shelter, and healthcare.  

    We'll see it blamed on the mentally ill.

    We'll see it blamed on "taking god out" of public schools.

    We'll see it blamed on violent video games and movies.

    We'll see it blamed on music.

    We'll see it blamed on demons and satan.

    Once someone blames it on the easy access to assault weapons, we'll be told that the problem is that we need to arm MORE people.  

    We'll be told that freedom trumps security, no matter what the issue is, and you're a Bushesque proto-fascist for trying to limit the freedoms of individuals who want to own weapons designed for the sole purpose of killing rooms full of people.  

    At the end of the day, we'll find some new shiny object and not a god damned thing will be done.  

    Merry Fucking Christmas.  

    When the going gets rough, the average go conservative. --Henry Rollins

    by Beelzebud on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:09:07 PM PST

  •  Lets look at the bigger picture. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mmacdDE

    Nothing wrong with having a conversation about violence in American culture. But that must accompany a discussion on the availability and numbers of guns in the US. So lets not get sidetracked. Others would have us believe it is about a lack of religion in government. Again that is a sidebar. Other countries are even less religious than we are and do not have this problem with violence.

    Maybe the answer is cultural. As in we in America lack the maturity to be a great power. Maybe our desire to be a great power is an expression of our lack of maturity. maybe we are less mature as a country than we were in the 30s or 40s. maybe we need to have our toys taken away from us until we grow up a little more. We tower astride the world like a colossus but we are essentially three years old in terms of our maturity.

    The founding fathers wished that we would mind our business and stay out of trouble. Our economic growth has guaranteed that we would do no such thing. Did Rome deserve to be a world empire? Or Napoleon's France? Or Germany in the 40s? Likewise what have we done to deserve our position in the world. Invent and manufacture enough nuclear weapons so that everyone fears us? Was the dream of the writers of the Constitution to be the scariest nation in the history of mankind?

  •  Funny, I was just thinking about the manufacturers (0+ / 0-)

    I was thinking, "why the hell are there gun manufacturers"?

  •  American Exceptionalism (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sagesource

    Other nations watch Battleship or play Medal of Honor and are entertained.

    Americans, though, think it's real and they should act it out.

    Was that the sort of exceptionalism you had in mind?

    Economics is a social *science*. Can we base future economic decisions on math?

    by blue aardvark on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:17:56 PM PST

  •  We all know by now, the NRA is just another shill (0+ / 0-)

    for gun manufacturers?  Or, maybe not...we decide?

  •  Wait, I thought it was... (3+ / 0-)

    ...metal music?  

    Wait no, it's Dungeons and Dragons.

  •  Locked and Loaded (0+ / 0-)

    Just saw Apocalypse Now, Played some Call of Duty, Drank some High Energy drinks, Read up on BiPolar disorder so .. well you know- plead insanity.

    Now-

    Where the hell did I put my AR-15 and those pipe bombs

  •  I do not like violent video games. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sagesource

    I do not like violent movies.

    But violent history books? I can't get enough.

    No one had better try to tell me that I can't read violent books.

    As someone here said, there is educational value in violent video games. If one of my grandsons is getting skills that I will never know or understand that may help him in the future, great.

    History books have educated me to the horridness of gun and violence culture.

  •  Get rid of violent video games what would the (0+ / 0-)

    right-wing nuts jerk off to?

    "It strikes me as gruesome and comical that in our culture we have an expectation that a man can always solve his problems" - Kurt Vonnegut

    by jazzence on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:43:44 PM PST

  •  Retool! Ridiculous! Magazines are spring loaded... (0+ / 0-)

    ...and a 20 round magazine can be loaded with from 1 to 20 rounds and it shoots just fine. There's no retooling necessary. "Standard" s-a handguns all use 10 round magazines. The gun doesn't change when a larger magazine, or a smaller one, is loaded.

    When Ca established a 10-round limit, existing owners of higher volume magazines were legally allowed to modify them with a block or some contraption to prevent more than 10 rounds being loaded.

    That comment is ridiculous.

  •  NRA press release. (0+ / 0-)

    Briefly diaried elsewhere:

     

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    December 18, 2012

    FOR MORE INFORMATION
    (703) 267-3820

    NRA Statement

    The National Rifle Association of America is made up of four million moms and dads, sons and daughters – and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown.

    Out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency, we have given time for mourning, prayer and a full investigation of the facts before commenting.

    The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.

    The NRA is planning to hold a major news conference in the Washington, DC area on Friday, December 21.

    Details will be released to the media at the appropriate time.

    -NRA-
    Established in 1871, the National Rifle Association is America's oldest civil rights and sportsmen's group. Four million members strong, NRA continues to uphold the Second Amendment and advocates enforcement of existing laws against violent offenders to reduce crime. The Association remains the nation's leader in firearm education and training for law-abiding gun owners, law enforcement and the armed services. Be sure to follow the NRA on Facebook at www.facebook.com/NationalRifleAssociation and on Twitter @NRA.

    Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

    by dadadata on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:49:42 PM PST

  •  Morgan Freeman opened the door to this already... (0+ / 0-)

    ...when he posted these thoughts the other day, without the help of Faux News, the NRA or anyone else.

    "You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

    It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

    CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

    You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

    I agree with Mr. Freeman that the media hype of these events does tend to focus on the killers and not the victims, contributing to a "cult of fame" sensibility for the mentally-deranged hell-bent on going out in a blaze of glory. As a father, I don't like that video games have become increasingly more violent and in some cases increasingly more misogynistic to boot. I can't help but think that dulls, rather than sharpens, our sensitivities to violence and makes us more inured to it as a society.

    But I disagree with him on the root of the problem -- the prevalence and easy access to high-powered, semi-automatic guns human killing machines is spreading across the nation like a cancer and quite literally killing America.

    "A liberal is a man or a woman or a child who looks forward to a better day, a more tranquil night, and a bright, infinite future." – Leonard Bernstein

    by frisco on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:58:31 PM PST

  •  Boo Hoo.....Oh The Poor, Poor Gun Manufacturers (0+ / 0-)

    Not only should they have to retool, but they should pay for the transfer & importation of every weapon of war they produce.

    America can no longer go to the movies, or church or the mall without risking being murdered.  Our little kids can no longer go to first grade.  We can't meet our representatives in public places anymore....another incident like what befell Gabby Gifford can happen again.
    The Sikh & Amish communities cannot gather without feeling intimidated & hunted.

    So tough....the poor, beleaguered manufacturers will just have to cope.  

  •  Heres a good idea... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mmacdDE

    People can own automatic weapons (machine guns) legally. They have to pay a fee, undergo a background check, and have an adequate, tightly controlled gun vault. If they can do this, they are issued a Class 3 fireams license. The sales of these weapons are tracked, and the license can be revoked if its terms of its use are not adhered to. In short, machine guns are very heavily regulated, and controlled. To my knowledge, there has never been a machine gun used in any of these massacres.
    I think that anyone who wants to own guns should have to apply, and adhere to identical terms as those dictated for Class 3 gun owners. I'm a gun owner, I'd gladly sign on for this in order to prevent another massacre...GLADLY!!!
    Just a thought.

  •  my biggest fear is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    that their strategy will work, and our collective passions will fade or move towards the next crisis.

    victimssandyhook

    Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

    by 51percent on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:24:58 PM PST

  •  THEIR FACEBOOK PAGE IS BACK (0+ / 0-)

    http://www.facebook.com/... and full of hate spew from their members and supporters

    Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

    by 51percent on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:26:28 PM PST

  •  What about having a bullet tax of $1000 per shell? (0+ / 0-)

    Now with their party out of power, the GOP is flailing more then Mitch McConnell's jowls on a playground swing. S. Colbert

    by christomento on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:29:05 PM PST

  •  In a nutshell (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kovie

    NRA says to get rid of all the fake guns and replace them with real guns.

    "Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred." Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by djbender on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:30:51 PM PST

    •  You mean all the virtual guns (0+ / 0-)

      Real men don't just play with virtual guns with their friends hosting a LAN party in their mom's basement. They buy Bushmasters and blow away real things. Just like Ethan Allen and Daniel Morgan, who would have been proud.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:44:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A Friday news conference? (0+ / 0-)

    On the one week anniversary? How about they just shut their mouths for good?

    An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

    by Debby on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:32:51 PM PST

  •  Yep (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Prinny Squad, mmacdDE

    Remember all those violent video games the Nazis played?

  •  laughed out loud (0+ / 0-)

    for the first time in days here:

    Thanks for reminding us that the original assault weapons ban was inadequate!
    PERFECT RESPONSE.

    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

    by kj in missouri on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:36:50 PM PST

  •  qwatz (0+ / 0-)
    At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia
    this says that there were about 3 million guns out there Down Under.

    The USA has 270 MILLION guns out there.
    LINK

    Bill Belichick also has 10 million gallons of crude oil stashed away, just in case.

    by 2liberal on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:37:48 PM PST

  •  The purpose of the NRA (0+ / 0-)

    is to help the arms industry extend and "de-virtualize" the violence we see in so many movies, TV shows and video games to the real world. So it's really just an advocate for "real world gamers" in the US.

    And this is just mean:

    So if that's the debate the NRA wants to have—one focused on shifting the blame elsewhere, then bring it the fuck on, assholes.
    Which is totally apropos in the instance.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:39:06 PM PST

  •  Shorter: "Solve Cain's problem with Abel b4 guns". (0+ / 0-)

    IOW, what the Gun-is-God crowd is saying is that we can do nothing about guns until we solve the problem of humans doing violence, which God himself could not.

    Which is why Gun gave us assault weapons, presumably.

  •  one of the few useful things Howard did (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Major Kong
    On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia’s history.
    Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.

    At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.

    yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

    by annieli on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:43:06 PM PST

  •  First Graders (0+ / 0-)

    The NRA cannot cross this line of national grief and incomprehensible sorrow by ignoring their responsibility to show appropriate and sensitive leadership by hiding behind an industry (Hollywood) made up of pure imagination.

  •  I say... "shut up" to the NRA... (it rhymes) n/t (0+ / 0-)

    "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

    by unclebucky on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:49:41 PM PST

  •  From a manufacturing standpoint, 6 sigma is the (0+ / 0-)

    current benchmark.  A defect rate of 6 sigma (1-.999997 x units produced) is considered world class quality.

    I wondered what our "defect rate" was for mass murder.  Assuming 85 million gun owners, that defect rate would be 255 per period.

    I would have thought we weren't even close to that.  Even in our gun culture with the wide availability of firearms, we are better than 6 sigma.

    OK.  Don't run around with your hair on fire.  I don't listen to you emotional arguments anyway.

    It's a number that might not mean anything to you.  But it is meaningful to some of us who think in terms of numbers.

    •  Are you saying ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... that if the number of massacred first graders is suitably low, then we don't have a gun problem?

      Er, just what are you saying? I'll withhold judgement until you elaborate.

      Note to Boehner and McConnell: "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." --Bob Dylan-- (-7.25, -6.21)

      by Tim DeLaney on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:21:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We find it acceptable that 25,000 people starve (0+ / 0-)

        to death on this planet every day.  So, that apparently is acceptable to you.

        5 children die each day from abuse or neglect in the USA; 200 are sexually molested.

        So, perhaps I have a broader view of 'what is acceptable' than you might.

        Especially when a mother with a kid with an obvious problem feels it appropriate to keep guns in her house.

    •  What on earth are you smoking (0+ / 0-)

      or do you possess just this one bit of strange information that you straight-jacket stuff into?

      •  I happen to be a vet, work with law enforcement (0+ / 0-)

        daily and have seen bad things daily.

        Take your perspective and do something good with it.

        ps.  There are bad people who don't obey any law other than their own.

        •  That's true (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Boris49

          And just perhaps, if there were a few hundred million fewer guns, or the guns didn't shoot 100 rounds a minute, they might not kill a bunch of first graders in their school.

          We can't fix the broken people. But we can sure as hell make it harder for them to act out their delusions.

  •  Its always some form of entertainment (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Prinny Squad, mmacdDE

    Just look at history. Lots of things have been blamed for ruining society. Comic books, rock & roll, heavy metal, Dungeons and Dragons, Vampire the Masquerade, and video games have all been blamed for people doing violent things.

    Of course no politician wants to talk about the real problem of mental health problems and getting people the help that they need, because that may actually require effort to get something substantial done. Its easy to blame entertainment for society's ills, its much harder to actually confront the real problems.

    “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

    by bayushisan on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:51:17 PM PST

  •  Of Course America Agrees (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mmacdDE

    "The NRA may think 20 first graders is an acceptable price to pay for their radical agenda. Now we get to find out whether America agrees."

    Of course America agrees with the NRA.  I have been following the story here on Kos and on the NBC and CBS evening news shows, and -- unless I have missed something -- all of the outcry against the murders has come from the Left.  I have not seen or heard one word of protest from the Republicans.  And the NRA is standing silent so far, although that is about to change.

    What I also find as significant is the silence from the Evangelical Christian community -- Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, etc.  They can get their noses out of joint over the so-called "War on Christmas,"  but evidently not about the massacre of 20 innocent little children.

    What we need so desperately in this country is more severe gun control.  We just re-elected Obama and added Democratic members to both houses of Congress.  The question now is, do Obama and the Democrats have the guts and the backbone to pursue tougher gun control laws, or will they cave in to the Republicans as they have for the past too many years?

    Until the United States as a whole convinces me that it strongly opposes the NRA position, I am free to presume that it is in strong support of the NRA.

  •  How about forming the National Child Association? (0+ / 0-)

    with the expressed intent of countering the narrative and marketing muscle of the NRA?

    Established after the senseless slaughter of children at Sandy Hook Elementary, the National Child Association is America's voice for our next generation. The NCA advocates for common sense gun control legislation and other policies that will help prevent children from being murdered in our schools, in our day care centers, in our places of worship, in our parks, in our community centers and other public places. To this end, the NCA will educate legislators about the need for new gun control laws and to publicly endorse those candidates who stand for safe guarding our children from harm.

    It takes time to practice generosity, but being generous is the best use of our time. - Thich Nhat Hanh.

    by Frank In WA on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:56:02 PM PST

  •  They would rather print money with victim's blood. (0+ / 0-)

    Just about what's happening now.

    Perhaps the NRA would actually prefer that.

    cheerleaders need not apply.

    by kravitz on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:56:02 PM PST

  •  I thought I had an iron stomach and thick skin (0+ / 0-)

    until I made the mistake of reading the facebook page comments on nationalrifleassociation website.

    Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

    by 51percent on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:56:27 PM PST

  •  Oh Goodie... (0+ / 0-)

    The NRA is coming out of hiding just in time for Festivus.

    Don't forget to include them in your Airing of Grievances. Start early if you have to.

  •  Clearly there is only one solution. (0+ / 0-)

    If videogames and movies are causing shootings, then clearly the solution is that the victims should have watched more movies and played more videogames!  THen they would have been able to defend themselves!

    Please note my extreme sarcasm.

  •  Time to revise the 2nd Amendment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mmacdDE

    We have added or changed the U.S. Constitution over time for Abolishing Slavery, Women's Right to Vote, Civil Rights to name a few. So if the 2nd Amendment's true meaning seems so confusing and outdated. Why aren't we taking it up for revision?

    We have a fringe minority that are using this amendment to pile more and more high powered weapons into our communities. Deaths are occurring directly from that abuse. The law on the books is being interpreted in a way that clearly demonstrates it needs clarification by the People.

    Why do I say "By the People"? Because it isn't a case of the Amendment being confusing more than it's a case of the Amendment being outdated. If we let the Supreme Court of the United States bang their heads together do you think they could bring forth the ghost of Thomas Jefferson and the rest of the Continental Congress from the grave to answer a few questions? I thought not.

    If the SCOTUS were given the right to decide we would just get a Scalia rewrite and that's not what the people want. We need to ask the People by popular vote what the Amendment should be written as.

    My vote would be to simply strike the "well armed militia" section completely. And then define the arms as for self defense and hunting. This would be a great base to work from.

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

    by Wynter on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:09:58 PM PST

  •  Gun control now! (0+ / 0-)

    The facts are plain to see. Semi-automatic weapons with 100's of rounds capacity is crazy. These are military weapons. No one needs these weapons outside of the military or law enforcement. Plus gun owners should have to pass a competency test both physical and mental. Plus there should be an extensive background check. And most importantly no more gun show sales, and no sales over the internet. These measure and limiting magazine capacity for all guns sold to the general public to no more then ten rounds, will reduce gun violence. These steps are not taking away one's second amendment rights. They are protecting the general public.

  •  one day, one day some really (0+ / 0-)

    sick person, will visit this insanity, for which they are largely responsible upon them and theirs.

    Sources close to the issue tell Fox News that the National Rifle Association -- which has remained silent since the shooting, chiefly to allow for a proper period for mourning -- will soon start to "push back" against the gun-control lobby.
     "If we're going to have a conversation, then let's have a comprehensive conversation," said one industry source. "If we're going to talk about the Second Amendment, then let's also talk about the First Amendment, and Hollywood, and the video games that teach young kids how to shoot heads.

    "If you really want to stop incidents like this," the source continued, "passing one more law is not going to do a damn thing. Columbine happened when? In 1999. Smack in the middle of the original assault-weapons ban."

    On that day,I will say, "exactly".

    The Democrats now own everything from the center right to the far left. the republicans and the filthy robberbarons occupy the extreme right fringe.

    by longtimelurker on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:25:26 PM PST

  •  i think video games are not the problem (0+ / 0-)

    I think the problem is actual guns.

    it's like that town that banned super soakers.
    people were soaking others with the big squirt guns.
    those people got angry and shot the super soaker people with real guns.
    and the town banned super soakers.

  •  How are places like THIS regulated? Can a felon (0+ / 0-)

    simply purchase this w/out a background check
    http://www.facebook.com/...

    Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

    by 51percent on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:31:33 PM PST

  •  Adapt gun laws to paranoid schizophrenia. (0+ / 0-)

    Australia, like almost everybody else, limits the damage from individuals who suffer hallucinations, hear voices, believe in plots against them, and are capable of inflicting mass murder.

    Anders Behring in Norway. Jared Loughner in Arizona. Where a gunman targets a group of strangers, this is the place to start. Adam Lanza was diagnosed for Asperger's. That is a common misreading for the early stages of schizotypal disorders where the individual withdraws from society.

    Paranoid schizophrenia is a well analyzed condition:

    -- 17 per 100,000 people

    -- 50,000 Americans

    -- Lifetime condition after it develops

    Keep in mind that this disease can be caught early with psychiatric testing; we have drugs that can manage the schizophrenia:

    Paranoid schizophrenia is one of several types of schizophrenia, a chronic mental illness in which a person loses touch with reality (psychosis). The classic features of paranoid schizophrenia are having delusions and hearing things that aren't real.

    With paranoid schizophrenia, your ability to think and function in daily life may be better than with other types of schizophrenia. You may not have as many problems with memory, concentration or dulled emotions. Still, paranoid schizophrenia is a serious, lifelong condition that can lead to many complications, including suicidal behavior.

    -- Mayo Clinic, describing moderate paranoid schizophrenia

    A young male suffering an intense paranoid schizophrenia episode can become dangerous in a second. If you put loaded assault rifles into the hands of untreated paranoid schizophrenics, expect to see carnage.

    Laws were changed in most countries after modern semi-automatic and automatic weapons were developed, to keep these enhanced killing tools well away from paranoid schizophrenics.  

    America ??? We are exceptional. We banned full-automatic machine guns, but stopped after that.

    Australia got hit once and they changed ASAP. America gets hit once a month and we can't tell "paranoid schizophrenia" from cupcakes.

    Our Talking Head television experts have these murders driven by "bullying," "self pity," "rage," "trying to get attention," and "fame." There seems to be a ban on presenting the science here, what has come from psychiatric evaluation of surviving mass murderers.

    "We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

    by bontemps2012 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:44:54 PM PST

    •  like WMDs in Iraq and no global warming (0+ / 0-)
      Paranoid schizophrenia is one of several types of schizophrenia, a chronic mental illness in which a person loses touch with reality (psychosis). The classic features of paranoid schizophrenia are having delusions and hearing things that aren't real.

      yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

      by annieli on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 04:22:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Gun control didn't and won't solve the problem. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annieli

    Columbine happened in 1999, in the middle of the assault weapons ban.  That ban did nothing to stop it.  Why?  Because the perpetrators were the problem, not the guns.

    So who was the perpetrator this time?

    A troubled youth who was so messed up that his own mother was working towards having him committed and that's why he snapped.  The problem is the crazy people who decide to hurt others, not their tools.

    So if you are angry about what has happened, and everyone should be angry, be angry that society failed to lock this crazy up.  His own mother obviously new he should have been locked up.

    Remember, a few gallons of gasoline and a couple of matches are all that are required to create an even worse tragedy.

    If you want to solve a problem focus on the real cause (mental illness), and don't be distracted by false and ineffective promises (gun control).  Do something to really make a difference.

    •  Um...yeah. Way to totally miss the point. (0+ / 0-)

      Guns, even back then, were just way too easy to obtain, if you knew the right channels to get around the legality.  We call it the "gun show loophole".  

      Mental illness is not the "real cause" of anything.  Demonizing us as potential mass killers doesn't solve a damn thing and only serves to hurt us.  I suffer from depression.  I'm more likely, without my Zoloft, to aim violence towards myself than to others.  Do not lump people like me in with actual psychopaths.

      Other developed countries have tighter gun control laws, and they see far less in gun deaths than we do.  So they can work, if only we had more uniform reforms and ditch that gun show loophole once and for all.

    •  putting down the gun will make a difference (0+ / 0-)
  •  When i play Borderlands1 and 2 i want to... (0+ / 0-)

    immediately go out and shoot people< snark> the NRA needs to be kneecapped and neutered!!!

    America, We blow stuff up!!

    by IndyinDelaware on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:53:45 PM PST

  •  So...the NRA (0+ / 0-)

    "...has remained silent since the shooting, chiefly to allow for a proper period for mourning -- will soon start to "push back" against the gun-control lobby."

    Well wel well...ain't that clever of them. Maybe when they finally decide to "push back"...they need to be flooded with reminders of what happened on a daily 24 hour a day basis. Like pictures of EVERY ONE OF THOSE BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN with their names and ages. That's the only response they should get. We are NOT GOING TO FORGET THIS TIME OR LET THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FORGET...EVER...assholes at the NRA.

    "Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?" - General Jack D. Ripper

    by wilder5121 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 04:03:26 PM PST

  •  NRA, anti-video game?! (0+ / 0-)

    Okay, anti-violent video games, but they made their own game 6 years ago, and it apparently stinks.

    http://www.gamespot.com/...

    As a avid gamer for 30+ years, it would be impossible to figure out how many people  killed in the thousands of video games I played in that time (playing Borderlands 2 and Mass Effect 3 right now [lots of killing in those games].

    And attacking movies? You mean movies starring Republicans like Arnold, Bruce Willis and Sylvester Stallone? Same old same old.

  •  Eminem said it best. (0+ / 0-)

    "And they blame it on Marilyn (on Marilyn)... and the heroin
    Where were the parents at? "

  •  dumbasses (0+ / 0-)

    Don' they know their members are always spouting that the 1st amendment stays around because of the second?  let's hope they have a house cleaning at the NRA mansion.  Regulating firearms actually benefits the NRA and its members, ya know because no crazy dude is off killing people.

  •  I'm all for weapons bans ... (0+ / 0-)

    heck, I'd be happy to see the 2nd Amendment repealed or replaced or rewritten. It has always struck me as an anachronism.
    However, I don't think the anachronism of the 2nd Amendment necessarily means that we shouldn't be exploring the broader "culture of violence" question. There's no obvious causation between consuming violent media expression and acting violently, but it has always struck me as a bit disingenuous of media corporations to claim 1st Amendment protections on the one hand and "there's no evidence that violent expression prompts violent action" on the other. The only reason that we have a 1st Amendment in the first place is because we believe that speech matters, that it does have effects.
    I'm urging my reps to enact much tougher gun laws and urging gun owners to be responsible users of the 2nd Amendment rights (even as I long for a day when those rights are much more narrowly defined), but at the same time I'd urge media producers to be responsible users of their 1st Amendment rights. After all, if speech doesn't matter then it doesn't need to be protected.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. -- Mark Twain ... or was it Groucho?

    by Christian Wright on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 04:21:26 PM PST

  •  I taught Kindergarten for 4 years (0+ / 0-)

    before becoming a high school teacher. One of my former colleagues, a 1st grade teacher, recently posted a link to my Facebook page. The petition is a call for armed guards in schools. More guns is NOT the solution!

  •  Fuck the NRA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JoeyTheLemur

    They are responsible for these deaths in a large measure.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 04:44:50 PM PST

  •  Australia actually has some pretty strict (0+ / 0-)

    laws covering violence in video games too though.

    Not saying that throws the whole argument in the post out the window, but it's relevant to mention.

  •  This is a false dichotomy, really (0+ / 0-)

    It's not guns vs video games. That's too simple.  Of course the entertainment industry and news-media have an effect on the way people behave and think.  How else do you explain the way Fox News, Limbaugh, Coulter influence their minions to believe some of the stuff they believe?  Why did so many people patriotically agree to war with Iraq?  It was something they were sold while watching the TV - the lobotomy box, in effect.

    I dare say it was a very complicated and deadly mixture of violence culture, mental illness, easy access to guns, and who knows what else that cause this young man to go crazy.  Was he taking some psychiatric pharma drugs?  Suffering from depression? Did he have a brain tumor?  Was he part of some end-of-the-world cult?  Americans like a simple answer. Only time will tell, but I dare say this goes deeper just creating some new gun laws, or trying to ban violent video games.

  •  Struck by the image of the firefighters praying (0+ / 0-)

    I cannot fathom how the first responders managed to hold it together as they worked the scene in Newtown. Imagine having to go in and discover twenty 6- and 7-year-olds, and six teachers, murdered by gunfire. If one or more of them were to retire in the coming weeks, I would not be at all surprised.

  •  Video games? Ahh, displacing, how novel. (0+ / 0-)

    I say, let's talk about the gun industry watching their bottom line, and trying displace to blame to divert attention from the fact that an assault rifle was used in the shooting.

    Speaking of bottom lines: From Forbes, today, For Press-Shy Cerberus, Gun Industry Investment Brings Unwanted Attention

  •  on killing... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    i saw an old tree today

    There is actually a good case for the idea.  I refer you to "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" by Dave Grossman.  However the NRA will conveniently omit or downplay the fact that once a person decides to kill they need a weapon.  Making weapons readily and easily available completes the kill cycle and equips and enables the killer.

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