Skip to main content

And, was surprised that the process appeared to be frighteningly easy.

I registered with an online gun dealer website, did a little shopping, picked out an AK47, went through the entire process but didn't give my credit card on the final page of the sale. During the website registration process and the process of buying the gun, I was surprised at how little information they needed from me.  

Update: Both gun's we looked at last night, including the one we came close to purchasing are no longer available, one appears to be sold, the other is gone. Several others ARE available- I've taken screenshots of these if they, too, disappear or change:

Vepr K .223
Item Number: 945037345   Listed in category: AK-47 Rifles (and copies) > Full Stock
Seller since: Aug. 2002  User level:     Verified  (accepts money orders)
FFL dealer: No     
I have an excellent condition VEPR K in .223 that was purchased nib by me in 2003. This is an beautiful rifle that has seen very few rounds. Rifle has Krebs peep sight and a Robinson Arms flash hider installed as well as sling swivel studs in forearm and stock. Comes with the following mags, 4 circle 10 Bulgarian .223 waffles, 19 AK-74 bakelites (11 painted by robinson arms) 1 circle 10 slabside
Shipping terms:     25.00 shipped (in conus - continental united states)
____
Saiga 308 with strike force stock
Seller since: Sep. 2012  User level:     Basic  FFL dealer: No
I have a saiga 308, fully converted to ak configuration with an arsenal trigger group, threaded barrel and ak74 type muzzle break, ATI strikeforce stock, and a 24 round and factory magazine. This gun is 2moa with steel-cased ammo, and much more accurate with better ammunition. Super reliable, never a single hiccup. Wonderful gun, I'm only selling it so that I can downgrade to something a little cheaper to feed.
(The pistol in the picture is not for sale.)
_______
not AK47:pop_wm_4568334
H&K SL-8 NEW IN BOX Item Number: 921454458 Listed in category: Heckler & Koch Rifles > Tactical  Seller since:     Jul. 2004
(seller takes money orders)
HECKLER & KOCH MODEL SL-8 - Black furniture .223, semi automatic rifle. With all paperwork and HK tools. NEW IN BOX $2480.00 WITH FREE DELIVERY. CREDIT CARD SAME AS CASH.  Shipping terms: FREE SHIPPING  (accepts money orders) User level: Trusted Seller FFL dealer: No
______________

After selecting the gun, I clicked the "buy it" button, and added it to my shopping cart, got as far into the checkout as I could go w/out the final screen that involved my credit card. I needed to have my address/credit card verified for $1.99, after that I could use the card anytime.

There was no form or place to give social security number, nothing about a background check, nothing even asking me to verify that I was over 18.

I purchased cigars online as a gift once and had to have my age verified.  But, if I had paid the cost of the gun and shipping with a "verified" credit card, I could have purchased an AK47, and had it shipped.

Throughout the process of registration and verification, there was information about how to sell guns on their website.

Selling on this site is easy, you can do the shipping yourself or (if you want to obey certain laws,) they will set you up with someone who has a license to sell.

IF YOU ARE A SELLER:
Once you have set up an account in one of their "gun-friendly" banks, you can set up your own store, a lot like eBay.  

When you've sold a gun you can:
Ship it yourself - (making an assumtion you will follow the law)
or they can make it entirely legal for you:

Use a "GunsAmerica Dropoff Location":

How it Works
Option 1 - Sell it Yourself
 The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into his "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer´s state. So you, as the true seller of the gun, have established a clear paper trail for the gun that you need not ever maintain (even if an FFL dealer gives up his license his bound book is turned into the ATF). This is the simplest approach because nothing changes with your interaction with GunsAmerica and the buyer. You get to describe the gun, decide who it is sold to and how much it is sold for. And if the gun doesn´t sell there is no transfer of the gun back to you. You also pay a simple up front fee, not a commission on the sale itself.

Option 2 is to sell via a consignment with a dealer.

There is no way for anyone to know how the seller ships.

When I registered with the site, the following text was in a box at bottom the confirmation email:

Use your FFL to make money and help to guarantee success for the future of gun freedoms for all Americans by providing incoming and outgoing transfer services. Keep interstate gun sales alive!
A quick note about FFLs and gun sales:
All guns manufactured AFTER 1898 that fire fixed cartridge ammunition must be shipped to an FFL gun dealer who must send, fax, or email you his license before you may ship the gun. This applies to all guns but true antiques from before 1898 and modern percussion and flintock firearms
Yes they tell you the laws - but there is no way to know how an unlicensed seller will transfer the gun. Several give their phone numbers, asking you to call to make arrangements.

My AK47 would have been shipped for $25. The shipping details had nothing about a GA location, where several sellers make that clear. I assumed he would ship it himself.

This online store had a wide variety of available guns, semi automatic pistols, antiques, some sort of military sharpshooter setup for $17,000 and anything in between.

Any loopholes here? Should it be this easy? How can this process possibly be changed? There are so many websites that sell guns this way, it is so anonymous, it is almost worse than a gun show. Will the NRA work help to find fool-proof way to be sure that any and all sales of guns are completed only AFTER a background check? Hopefully the loss of so many innocent lives in Newtown, CT will be a catalyst for change.

Another Update Turns out, this is nothing new:

While all licensed dealers are required to subject their sellers to a background check, the same rule does not apply to unlicensed, private dealers, many of whom use sites like Armslist, Gun Listings, and Glock Talk to sell weapons.
and Rossen Reports: Anyone can buy guns, no questions asked

Buying guns online, whether from online auction-style selling sites or online classified ads, involves known loopholes that need to be closed and is a practice wide-open to people who simply ignore the laws that apply. After spending time on these websites last night I was more than disturbed. The ease of the process I followed to buy a gun surprised me.

Many of us haven't been paying enough attention to this; after each mass killing we shake our heads, the issue fades, and we move on to something else.

This latest shooting nightmare has caused more of us to look at how and why this happened. How are people getting guns, any guns, without background checks? Why does anyone need an automatic weapon? Where are they purchased and how? What are the laws and why aren't they followed? How does a gun dealer in LA insure that I have the permit required to own a gun, any gun, here in MA? Does he or she have to?

Regardless of which "side" you fall on this, I hope we can agree to some extent that this has to change.

victimssandyhook
Hug your children, thank a teacher.

 6:17 AM PT: Once again, as someone fairly new to Daily Kos, I am surprised at how the gun enthusiasts here are so quick to fault this dairy as deceptive, accusation similar to those made when I wrote about the NFL player who killed his girlfriend.

Before I rush off to work, let me clarify:

1. I know nothing about guns.

2. I was shocked an AK47 was something you could buy online - regardless of the process.

3. I simply wrote about the process I experienced.

4. I searched the site for information about what a BUYER needs before BUYING on the site. Did I miss something? If I did leave me a link.

5. I followed a link from the email sent to me when I registered with the site.  The email included a section inviting me to sell online. I clicked that link and found that if you sell a gun you can:

Ship it Yourself

... Or Use a GunsAmerica Dropoff Location

How it Works

Option 1 - Sell it Yourself

    The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into his "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer´s state. So you, as the true seller of the gun, have established a clear paper trail for the gun that you need not ever maintain (even if an FFL dealer gives up his license his bound book is turned into the ATF). This is the simplest approach because nothing changes with your interaction with GunsAmerica and the buyer. You get to describe the gun, decide who it is sold to and how much it is sold for. And if the gun doesn´t sell there is no transfer of the gun back to you. You also pay a simple up front fee, not a commission on the sale itself.

Option 2 - Sell on Consignment

    Many of our GA Drop Off Location dealers will take the gun in on consignment for you and handle the sale completely. The gun may be sold in their store, on their website or through an ad at GunsAmerica. Those terms you work out with them and the fees for the sale are stated in advance. You also must take into account that the gun might not sell and may have to be transferred back to you. The dealer himself may want to buy the gun outright as well, so your options are varied from dealer to dealer.

Click Here to find the closest drop off location

FFL Dealers Click Here to become a GunsAmerica Drop Off Location

6. Perhaps the actual process of receiving the gun is more difficult than it appears, but the listing for this gun includes a shipping cost of $25. The shipping tab has nothing further - nothing in the description tells me I have to go to a dealer. The FFS dealer information was included in the information for sellers, not buyers.

7. The tutorial for selling shows a place to enter an FFL license number -after- you register to sell - optional.

8. No where on the sellers page does it indicate the seller is licensed. (I was wrong here - there is a place, one had listed "no" and it is now changed the other was yes. Both of those guns are NO LONGER available - the ones above are, and they are sold by people who are not licensed. Everyone who insists that these guns, whether automatic or simple single shot handgun, have to be delivered through someone w/an FFL license and that the person holding that license would do a background check, how do you know that would actually happen? This is a known issue

9. Visit the site and show me I am wrong. The store itself states the law in the registration confirmation email. How it's enforced *appears" to be rather loose.  

I did this to see if I could buy ANY gun w/out a background check online.  It appears that this process is similar to a gun show.

If I am wrong, show me, go through the process yourself and show me that I can't simply check the right boxes -whether the information is true or not - and buy a gun, many kinds of guns, online.

Originally posted to 51 Percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:00 AM PST.

Also republished by Repeal or Amend the Second Amendment (RASA).

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (148+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irate, OldDragon, dadadata, Tinfoil Hat, SoCalSal, Getreal1246, SoCaliana, WakeUpNeo, jadt65, tobendaro, rmonroe, Its the Supreme Court Stupid, rb608, cyncynical, Clytemnestra, Steven D, OLinda, AAMOM, DefendOurConstitution, samanthab, MartyM, EJP in Maine, global citizen, nuclear winter solstice, chira2, WI Deadhead, renaissance grrrl, bontemps2012, vicki, dwayne, blueoasis, cosmic debris, CTLiberal, MadRuth, elziax, SneakySnu, kharma, Blue State 68, Egalitare, Sharon Wraight, badscience, psnyder, triplepoint, buckstop, LynChi, blueintheface, GeorgeXVIII, Sandino, Glen The Plumber, Eddie L, donna in evanston, Miggles, Azazello, MazeDancer, dear occupant, annrose, stevej, grumpelstillchen, Buckeye Nut Schell, StonyB, gramofsam1, teacherjon, flowerfarmer, Sylv, sawgrass727, Byron from Denver, la urracca, Temmoku, stlsophos, Smoh, TKO333, 4Freedom, Manny, Iberian, zerelda, surfbird007, dmhlt 66, Tool, statsone, unclebucky, Dem Beans, Debby, peteri2, musicsleuth, motherlu, filby, Giles Goat Boy, Hugo Estrada, NYC Sophia, kck, majcmb1, Radiowalla, spooks51, profewalt, democracy is coming, mungley, binkaroni, Transmission, Troubadour, AgavePup, Sailorben, MBNYC, Fury, Hayate Yagami, Over the Edge, Steveningen, lineatus, Little Flower, 1BQ, Inventor, mattinjersey, mconvente, cybersaur, Nina Katarina, Mogolori, Dburn, Crabby Abbey, Leftcandid, shesaid, vmibran, FisherOfRolando, fumie, Sun Tzu, rustypatina, Rick Aucoin, j b norton, StrayCat, trueblueliberal, FrY10cK, chantedor, trumpeter, wilderness voice, miss SPED, smokeymonkey, Yo Bubba, Anak, Nica24, The Jester, celdd, BachFan, TheDuckManCometh, JVolvo, science nerd, Hirodog, jan4insight, madhaus, redding888, bigforkgirl

    Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

    by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:00:06 AM PST

    •  Supergreat! n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      spooks51, means are the ends

      The GOP can't win on ideas. They can only win by lying, cheating, and stealing. So they do.

      by psnyder on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:39:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Highly misleading diary. Beginning with . . . (11+ / 0-)

        . . . I bought an AK47.  (Except I really did not buy one.)  And ending with the oversimplification of the transfer process and its safeguards.

        You suggest that there is no background check.  But there IS, as discussed below.  Therefore, if people believed what you wanted them to from your diary, Congress could pass a law that did nothing more than currently exists and it would be viewed by you and others as an improvement.

        "I hope we shall take warning from the example and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength . . ." ~ Thomas Jefferson Nov. 12th, 1816

        by pikkel on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:56:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  perhaps you can do the same thing and disprove (14+ / 0-)

          his point. Just put up the 800 dollars and then write about how you got ripped off and they never delivered the weapon.

          Slow thinkers - keep right

          by Dave the Wave on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:12:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  WWDNSD- what would Drunk Nate Silver do? (7+ / 0-)

          Drunk Nate Silver would say, " Tell you what, Jeff in NY - make an $800 bet with  the author that he can't order and receive that rifle within 60 days and both put $800 in a paypal accounts to transfer to the author on proof of delivery within 60 days else you win."
           You know, put your money where your mouth is. I must admit I'd be very interested to know if it's that easy to purchase ANY firearm online.

          Slow thinkers - keep right

          by Dave the Wave on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:28:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  No. (12+ / 0-)

          The web site only gives the option of doing any background check.

          - It's left entirely up to the seller to follow the proper channels.

          - There is no checking to see if the seller actually does so.

          The whole system is set up so everyone can just say "oh that other guy didn't do his job"

          It's called "diffusion of responsibility". It's the same strategy corporations use to avoid responsibility for toxic dumps and defective products ("oh that other contractor didn't do his job.").

          The intent of sites like that is to assist others in evading the law. They are a criminal operation. It is built in by design. Their records should be pulled, and every seller investigated.

          Furthermore, you know all this, and are defending them anyway. Which implies a lot.

          "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

          by nosleep4u on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:17:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Gun (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pikkel, Cedwyn, fuzzyguy, deedogg

            has to be shipped to an FFL

            THEY do the background check.

            You can skip the background check if you are "pre-approved" (Have a Concealed Carry License)

            Diary is misleading and incorrect.

            Netroots Nation: Burning Man for Progressives

            by Gilmore on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:12:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  and instead of updating with the facts of FFL (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pikkel, fuzzyguy, Robert in WV, deedogg

              involvement, the updates just make more wild claims.  

              Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

              by Cedwyn on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:34:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  diariest here ... (0+ / 0-)

                A friend registered to sell- no license.

                yep the laws are stated during the registration process.
                Yes you click -yes - you read the law.
                Sell your gun and then

                OPTIONS FOR SHIPPING:

                SHIP IT YOURSELF

                or OPTION 1- USE AN FFL LICENSED DEALER - AND IF YOU CHOOSE THAT WE CAN HELP.

                OPTION 2 -consignment w/an ffl dealer (didn't add that to the diary)

                If I sell and state I will only take a money order -  put my phone number etc up on the selling site
                HOW is any of this recorded? click on the links for available guns above, when they were added today at least two people accepted money orders, one just money orders.

                One of the guns we looked at last night was deleted.  Was it sold outside of the site?

                you guys all assume that everyone is following the law. They don't and it is very easy NOT to.

                READ THIS - just one of several stories about this well-known problem

                Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

                by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:53:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  thank you - for seeing this for what it is (0+ / 0-)

            and that was the whole point - we registered and could sell and found so many ways around the law.

            Sites like this have no measures in place to be sure people follow the laws.

            the first option we - unlicensed - sold a gun was to

            ship it ourselves

            or-- use an FFL- and they have a service to help you find one.  these guys got sidetracked by the description of the service, but the point is - yes that is the legal way to do it, but you can ignore that.

            http://www.thedailybeast.com/...

            Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

            by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:07:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Hahahhaahahaa! She CHANGED the TITLE. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cedwyn, fuzzyguy, deedogg

          And the fact that a seller is not an FFL does not mean that no FFL will be involved.  It simply means the seller is not an FFL.

          Care to start over?

          Crap like this diary can take people who might otherwise support additional restrictions on gun ownership and push them in the direction of what is in many ways (not all) the dark side.

          "I hope we shall take warning from the example and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength . . ." ~ Thomas Jefferson Nov. 12th, 1816

          by pikkel on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:26:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  LOL!! nope - the issue would be clear if you read (0+ / 0-)

            the diary.  ( i wrote it)
            YES you are supposed to, by law, use an FFL if you don't have a license - have you ever sold on one of these sites?

            We learned - that yes - you can sell w/out a license and they tell you what the law is- you have to agree to  -BUT -

            you can ship the gun to the buyer yourself (in otherwords make your own arrangements) or use their service -their network of ffl holders .... and that service is what is described on the diary.

            THERE IS NO WAY TO know how I would get the gun to the seller - especially if I am one of those -there are many on this site - who will take a money order and post my phone number.

            And I changed the diary because it illegal for me to own a gun in my state w/out a permit - not just concealed but any working gun.... for those who know who I am - I didn't want any crap.

            Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

            by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:14:11 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  yawn (0+ / 0-)

          The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

          by JVolvo on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:45:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  ONLY NEW GUNS (0+ / 0-)

          from manufacturers must be shipped directly to an FFL. Only FFL's selling new or used guns must conduct a background check.  No other seller is required to do so, hence 40% (estimated) of sales go without background checks of any kind.  However, FFL's are not very good at spotting a "straw purchase"-someone legally passing a background check and turning the firearm over to someone who is prohibited from possessing a firearm.  

  •  that was the GunAmerica site where gun dealers (19+ / 0-)

    and individuals advertise various guns for sale.  I have never purchased a gun through this site but have purchased firearms online.

    I take it the implication is you can buy a machine gun (which is what an AK is) online as opposed to a civilian version such as the SKS or other such configurations.
    I believe what you found at that site was a semi-auto version of the East Euro  AK.
    http://www.ar15.com/...
    I think that is the weapon you are referring to.

    BATF regulations on purchasing machine guns are as follows:  http://www.atf.gov/...

    I have not had an FFL for years now and regs do change but I note to purchase a revolver at auction requires a transfer to an FFL holder and requires the purchaser to go through a background check and register the firearm, unless it is considered an "antique".

    BTW if you wished to be upset over something, I would think something along the lines of this fully auto Steyr:
    http://www.liveauctioneers.com/...
    or this M3A1: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/...
    Read down for the requirements to own full auto  

    •  It's not an SKS (7+ / 0-)

      The rifle in the photo is a post-ban Yugoslavian AK.

      On the SKS the magazine is further forward of the trigger.

      You can get a 30 round magazine for the SK, but they almost universally jam.

      In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

      by boriscleto on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:01:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  if you look at the first link, I think you will (9+ / 0-)

        find the weapon referenced as semi-auto.  If you check the auction sites or ATF sites, you will find the regs governing purchasing a mg.
        I reiterate I don't think you are describing a full auto and  I don't think you can receive a mg through the mail w/o FFL and proper forms w/o having the BATF parked on your doorstep (and the BATF agents don't have a sense of humor either)

        •  And it takes all of an hour's work (18+ / 0-)

          to convert this to a full-auto machine gun.

          We need to modify gun laws (hopefully to match the 1996 Australian changes) and also RICO to include any and all efforts to supply terrorist killing tools.

          Want an AK ??? Really? Find yourself a shrink.

          "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

          by bontemps2012 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:03:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wow. I don't know anything about guns (7+ / 0-)

          but, shouldn't I be subject to a background check even if I want a single shot or whatever handgun?

          Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

          by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:10:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You are, unless the sale is person-to-person (15+ / 0-)

            At which point the onus is on the seller to not have reasonable grounds to suspect the person they're selling to is a prohibited possessor - and if it can be shown that the seller did have reasonable grounds and sold anyway, the seller can be prosecuted for it.

            I don't think you understand what "shipping to an FFL dealer" entails on your end.

            Your citation about "not being on the books" is regards to the seller, not the buyer.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:15:29 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  all this information is available on the BATF site (9+ / 0-)

              but it seems many folks don't take the trouble to read it

              •  entlord: if they did they'd have to acknowledge (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fuzzyguy, happymisanthropy, deedogg

                gun laws are in place.
                You cannot just "go to a gun show and buy anything you want, no questions asked."
                Automatic weapons aren't a dime a dozen in a gun show parking lot.

                We have gun control laws in this country, the genesis of which was in fact largely aimed at keeping guns out of the hands of black and brown people.

                The 2nd US Congress mandated ownership of firearms and ammunition for every able-bodied male citizen between 18 and 45 years of age. In fact they laid out exactly what firearms and what ammunition and what amount of powder and how many spare parts they required.

                But those facts don't play well with the fantasy world. In the fantasy world there are no legitimate reasons for private possession of firearms. In the fantasy world the "assault weapons ban" worked. In the fantasy world the 2nd Amendment is meaningless. In the fantasy world the cops always get there in time, and always believe the right person, and always lock up the bad guy forever and ever amen, period, end of story.

                To some degree they're right:
                current gun laws didn't stop that jerk in Clackamas.
                current gun laws didn't stop that jerk in Sandy Hook.
                current gun laws didn't stop that jerk in Aurora.
                current gun laws didn't stop that jerk in Tucson.
                current gun laws didn't stop those bastard adolescents in Columbine
                or that jerk at Virginia Tech.

                Laws, especially if they're not fully and forcefully enforced, don't generally stop so-inclined people from breaking those laws and usually additional laws in the process, witness the car theft in Sandy Hook nobody's talking about.

                No gun law, however, would have come remotely close to applying to Timothy McVeigh and his rental truck full of diesel fuel and fertilizer.
                Was he ever charged with the destruction of the truck or the theft of it by its destruction?

                They accuse those of us who believe in the whole Constitution and who engage and defend in the rights it guarantees of being fetishists, nuts, and criminals. They project that we're fearful and timorous fantasists with anatomical deficiencies they enjoy imagining at great length; one of them published something really offensive here about "gunsucker" yesterday.

                In the hue-and-cry to make us all safe by the definition they choose, though, they're missing or glossing over or outright mocking other considerations.

                It's come out recently that since Charles Whitman went up on that tower back in '66 and started mowing down passersby, many of the actual perpetrators in mass shootings have been adolescent or  post-adolescent males (a common theme with serial killers like Dahmer and Bundy, too); almost all those perpetrators have been white;  and a disturbing number of those perpetrators have been receiving treatment with or withdrawing from psychotropic drugs.

                Whitman had gone to UT student health about headaches and mood changes. He didn't get effective help there.

                Cho had been identified as needing mental help and had been referred before he ever bought the firearms he used to massacre people at Virginia Tech. What, if any, help he got wasn't effective.

                Loughner had been identified as needing mental help before Tucson.

                Lanza had been identified as needing mental help before Sandy Hook.

                The Baculum King's excellent diary on this over the weekend deserves a read, IMO.

                Meanwhile we're inundated with cries that we're obstructionist, archaic, Viagra-needing dinosaurs who spew the NRA's talking points the way a RWNJ spews some twisted version of religion.

                Sigh.

                People don't read. Don't pay attention. Don't take into account that you actually have to, you know, try something to know if it works, not just simulate it online.

                Which brings up the video game argument, and I'm only gonna say this once: romanticizing bloodshed is a bad damn idea. Hunters don't do it because we have to clean the game we bring down before we eat it. Target shooters don't do it because we shoot holes in paper. Anglers don't do it because we have to clean the fish (not to mention putting the bait on the hook). We know that there's gore. We know that there's suffering. We know that a life is lost -- a real, genuine life -- and we don't glorify that. Ask a combat vet sometime about how warfighters feel on this issue. I'm not qualified to speak to it because I served in peacetime -- among some 'Nam vets. My kid brother served in Desert Shield/Storm, though.

                The media romanticizes bloodshed.
                Video games romanticize high body counts.

                Think maybe either one of those, or both, plays a role in copycats?

                LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                by BlackSheep1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 09:32:28 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Rightous Rant. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  happymisanthropy, deedogg

                  I quibble with your argument just a bit though.

                  My completely biased opinion is that the glorification and celebrity status placed upon mass murderers is far more dangerous than the video games or violent multimedia culture. Furthermore, kids shouldn't be playing M rated video games. Bad parenting and a fucked up American notion that sex and nudity is infinitely more objectionable than violence indicates a far deeper societal and cultural problem here in the US of A. Other countries eat up our multimedia entertainment, but aren't as violent, be it with guns, sticks, or fists. I think if we can figure out and address why that is, we'd go a long way to making this world a better place.

                  •  Well, partly agreed. I saw some specs on (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    fuzzyguy, deedogg

                    Australia over the weekend indicating that non-gun assaults and murders haven't been dented by their 1996 ban. The UK went so far as to outlaw knives, and that may be next in China.

                    But you're right. Romanticizing bloodshed ("if it bleeds it leads" media) does a boatload of damage. I can see how that level of celebration in the news coverage might seem desirable to somebody desperate enough....

                    LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                    by BlackSheep1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:37:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  the problem isn't found in the laws etc (0+ / 0-)

                  the problem is that regardless of what others have said in these comments it is WAY too easy to skirt the laws- the laws are stated on this website, but there is no way to prevent me from obtaining a money order contacting sending it to one of these guys who take money orders ...
                  arranging for him to ship it to me.

                  it's not a new issue:

                  http://www.thedailybeast.com/...

                  Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

                  by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:03:23 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  How would you successfully prosecute a seller for (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              51percent

              that?

              I can only imagine if the seller knows the other person previously and would also be expected to know they have issues precluding sale. Otherwise, I'd think a person-to-person sale would be almost impossible to prove in court, assuming you have a halfway competent lawyer.

              I wonder how often someone has actually been convicted of doing that.

              •  A prisoner survey from back in the '90s found (5+ / 0-)

                that 80% of guns used by criminals in crimes were off the street, or from family members. The nature of the transaction makes establishing this criterion easier, but yes, perhaps not easy enough.

                A number of us on the RKBA side have asked if there are ways to require private sales to go through the NICS check without becoming an undue burden on seller or buyer, so that for guns that go from the legal market to the black market, there is at least a final legal sale and the paperwork to go with it, at least for the period of time such records are kept. If someone is turning up more than once as the "last legal buyer" of guns that turn up in the black market, you've got a likely straw-purchaser prosecution all ready to go.

                Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:56:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It shouldn't be that hard (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  51percent

                  Require all transfers between private parties to go through a NICS check, and allow those checks to be performed at police stations. For buyers who really don't want the police to know what guns they own, they can go to a private FFL for the check (though, really, if your anti-state paranoia reaches that level, you should probably not have a gun). For everyone else, there will be a guaranteed location within a reasonable distance where the check may be performed.

                  But for a "last legal buyer" system to hold up well, we need universal firearm registration.

                  "Speaking for myself only" - Armando

                  by JR on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:47:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why would a buyer be so afraid of the police (0+ / 0-)

                    knowing what they have?

                    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

                    by cany on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:31:44 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Answer: you can't (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                StrayCat, 51percent

                These laws are not enforced.

                That's why this market exists. It's why web sites like the one cited exist.

                That's why all the pro-gun comments in this diary are absolute garbage. They simply refuse to acknowledge the de-facto unregulated secondary gun market.

                "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

                by nosleep4u on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:02:16 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Straw purchase penalties for gun store owners (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rick Aucoin, StrayCat, Joe Bob

                iirc are like a $20k fine and 2 years in prison. And that's with a incredibly high burden of proof, where undercover cops basically have to loudly announce their illegal straw purchase intentions inside the store. 3 guesses who's lobbying you can thank for that.

                "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

                by TheHalfrican on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:36:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  I believe the ad for this gun, or the listing (0+ / 0-)

        as it works like eBay so independents list guns for sale - comes with a 30 round magazine. Not sure what that means - and how it shoots, but it's written in the description

        Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

        by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:09:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  51percent, can you embed the ad as an image? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          deedogg

          I'm not sure if you're talking about the same item here as the diarist found.

          LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

          by BlackSheep1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 09:34:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Deflection. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nobody at all, trumpeter, Calouste

        Every single thing in your post is "oh this gun is poor quality". In other words, completely fucking irrelevant.

        The NRA would be proud of you.

        "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

        by nosleep4u on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:19:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  rec'd for offering information (11+ / 0-)

      without slurs on the diarist.

      The sh*t those people [republicans] say just makes me weep for humanity! - Woody Harrelson

      by SoCalSal on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:28:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't know anything about guns (4+ / 0-)

      I just know how easy it was to buy it, or any guns with NO background check.

      Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

      by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:06:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Once again, you wouldn't have been able (22+ / 0-)

        to buy it without a background check. That simple.

        You would not have been able to take possession of it from the FFL dealer it was shipped to without filling out the FFL transfer paperwork and submitting to the NICS check. You would have also had to pay the FFL dealer for the courtesy of running the check.

        An interesting question would have arisen had you showed up at the FFL dealer and failed the NICS check. Would the FFL have to return the gun to the seller? Would you be able to get your money back?

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:10:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  But, you did NOT buy it. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Robobagpiper, Cedwyn, fuzzyguy, deedogg

        You never completed the transaction.

        in re your quote: "I just know how easy it was to buy it, or any guns with NO background check." Or even the title of the comment I'm responding to: "I don't know anything about guns"

        Look, I don't pontificate on heart surgery because I've never done it nor have I been through it.  I simply do not know all that's involved in it.

        If you've never actually bought a gun online, is it fair of you to pontificate on how it works?  Many people in this comment stream have told you how the process works.  I'm telling you that I have purchased guns from online auction sites and it's impossible to have a gun legally drop shipped to your doorstep without a background check (unless you're a FFL, which is a whole other ball of paperwork to deal with).  The seller either ships it directly to your local FFL or has their local FFL ship it to your FFL.  It cannot be sold and shipped directly to an individual unless they possess a FFL.

      •  Let me offer an alternate scenario... (5+ / 0-)

        ...since, to be honest, the RKBAers are correct that there would have been a background check imposed before you could take possession of the weapon, as the terms of sale say it was to have been shipped to an FFL dealer (those stores tend to be pretty methodical about complying with the law on running checks: some might let someone they suspect of being a "straw buyer" get away with purchases, wrongly believing that it's not their responsibility to prevent such purchases, but they won't sell to someone who fails a NICS check):

        Let's say instead that you went on an auction site, or on a classified site, and found someone in your area selling a semi-automatic AK-47 clone or an AR-15. Instead of going through the site itself to make the purchase, you contact the seller directly and arrange a face-to-face sale. You drive out to meet him somewhere, inspect the gun, maybe fire off a round or two if you're somewhere without a restriction on discharging weapons or if the sale takes place near a shooting range, hand over some cash, shake hands, and drive off, no questions asked or background checks performed.

        Unless the seller has seen your mug shot before, I believe that's perfectly legal in most states. (Someone may correct me if I'm mistaken.)

        That is the heart of what's been called the "Gun Show Loophole" (which is really a terrible piece of branding). It boils down to sales without background checks, which account for somewhere around 40% of all firearms sales in the US.

        "Speaking for myself only" - Armando

        by JR on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 09:01:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What you have described (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          StrayCat, JR

          Is exactly what happens all the time through sites like gunbroker.com, and these transactions are legal.

          From another comment, it would appear that it would be more difficult to perform this transaction through mail or common carrier.

          IIRC, the Oregon shooter bought his gun across state lines, and the seller knew it.  That seller IMO would be a good candidate for negligent homicide charges.

        •  take a look at YouTube sometime (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JR

          Search for something along the lines of "gun show undercover." You will find at least one video that demonstrates the following:

          Sellers set up shop at gun shows, skirt the law by calling themselves collectors, and conduct private party sales that don't require a background check. Some collectors are selling hundreds of gun per year this way. In other words, they are a firearms dealer without a license - but enforcement is minimal.

          In one secretly recorded video I watched, an undercover buyer says to a private party seller: "Are you one of the background check guys? No? Good, because I probably couldn't pass one." The sale proceeds anyway, in blatant violation of the law. Of course, anyone who wasn't trying to bait a seller into breaking the law on videotape would just keep their mouth shut and walk out of there with a new gun with no background check.

          I don't know how you stop this without prohibiting private party sales and, as others have mentioned, requiring a licensed intermediary to conduct a background check with the sale.

          Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

          by Joe Bob on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:42:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  A big part of the problem (0+ / 0-)

            is Republican obstruction and perpetual underfunding of enforcement for crimes that are not drug related. If the R's make sure funds are inadequate, government doesn't work, so they push the meme that there should be less government since it doesn't work, self fulfilling prophecy.

            We need to demand more money for actual boots on the ground law enforcement rather than Homeland Security grants to buy expensive surplus military toys like drones for counties that don't even have the payroll to hire detectives to investigate white collar crimes or to pay prosecutors to actually take cases of theft, domestic abuse, etc to court.

            Money for attorneys, detectives, investigations, and prosecutions isn't as easy to get when drones, tanks, and paramilitary hardware is sexy, easier to acquire through DHS, and is a visual show of force and marketing for local officials who feel the need to put up an image of being "tough on crime" to stay in office.

          •  We don't really need to ban private party sales... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fuzzyguy

            ...if we require checks by a licensed intermediary. Prohibiting transfers without a background check is what I'm getting at. Every transfer should require a background check.

            Sales without checks happen at gun shows, sure, but they happen in all sorts of places. It's the practice that should be targeted, not just when it happens in one particular context. And I think the framing works better when we take it out of the gun show context.

            "Speaking for myself only" - Armando

            by JR on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 12:07:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  I'm watching Joe Scarborough... (31+ / 0-)

    right now answer Willie Geist's question about just how powerful the NRA actually is.  Amazing response, saying how the NRA actually OPPOSED Scarborough when he first ran for office, and worked hard to defeat him in the primary.  And Scarborough then said as a result, he "only" got 62% of the vote against the conservative Democrat.

    And then he DARED the NRA lobbyists to try and go to West Virginia and try to tell them that Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV) has sold them out.  Warned them they'd better run quick, in order to get back to their cars and drive back to D.C.

    But more interesting, he said after his initial rant on Monday, he's gotten no negative feedback from the pro-NRA crowd, and only support from even his NRA friends for what he said.  Though he also noted he's waiting for an elected Republican official to come out and publicly say what Manchin, Sen. Mark Warner (D-VA), etc. have said about guns.

    •  I'm from WV. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rick Aucoin, BachFan, fuzzyguy, deedogg

      I think Scarborough is wrong.  

      Depending on what sort of law is passed, if Manchin votes for it he's vulnerable.

      Rockefeller and Byrd managed to get re elected when they voted for the original Brady and AWB but if anything as federal help for the middle class and unions has gone down and down the gun issue has gone up and up as something people vote on around here.

      Manchin is actually pretty brave to say anything.  I'd say guns are more of a factor in elections here than even the EPA and coal.

    •  If you believe everything Scarborough says, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fuzzyguy, deedogg

      you have a real problem.

      Private health insurance: a protection racket without the protection.

      by rustypatina on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 09:22:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Diary is incredibly deceptive (33+ / 0-)

    By shipping to an FFL dealer, whether for just the sale or the consignment, the buyer would still have had to have passed the NICS background check that comes with the transfer. The record of the sale (and the purchaser) would have gone on record for a certain number of years (7, if memory serves). The FFL dealer will also charge for the transaction.

    What can not be done for arms younger than 1898 (or black powder arms, which are exempt regardless of date of manufacture) is to have the arm shipped directly to the buyer, as the FFL paperwork and NICS check are still required.

    The scenario the diarist has presented is little different than going into a gun store with a specific weapon in mind, and having them special order it for you.

    And to top it off with a taste of irony, the firearm under discussion appears to be of the "post-ban" variety, that is, legal for new manufacture and sale had the 1994 ban remained in place. The thumbhole stock is the giveaway.

    (To the comments: the SKS is not the civilianized AK; it's a slightly older rifle designed by a different person. Civilianized AKs are AKs that are not capable of full automatic fire. Those whose receivers deemed by the BATF to be easy to convert to full automatic fire have been prohibited from import for some time; also, the conversion parts are Class III NFA controlled, and possession without registration is a serious felony).

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:35:42 AM PST

    •  Took the words right out of my mouth (16+ / 0-)
      Diary is incredibly deceptive
      and added a few as well.
    •  Diary makes it sound like an Amazon.com purchase. (17+ / 0-)

      and it's just not so...

      The key is that the purchase has to go through an FFL dealer.  You cannot have a weapon simply drop shipped to your doorstep. I've bought handguns on line through auction sites and at the end transaction you still have to go to your local FFL dealer and fill out the paper work and have the NICS check run.

    •  Missed opportunity, Robo. (10+ / 0-)

      Instead of beginning with an insult, you could have offered clarification, information. Engaged in respectful dialogue. Possibly gained some respect in the process.

      For the diary to be deceptive, the diarist would have to write facts s/he knows to be false.

      The sh*t those people [republicans] say just makes me weep for humanity! - Woody Harrelson

      by SoCalSal on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:25:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How is "diary is incredibly deceptive" (12+ / 0-)

        an insult? It is an accurate description of the text above - it creates a scenario by misleading the reader into thinking that the weapon would be acquired without a background check online.

        The very first comment after the tip jar shows that this inaccurate perception was successfully conveyed to its readership.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:34:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  speaking as one of the first 4 people to tip that (11+ / 0-)

          comment- I know zippo about guns like this and never tried to buy one. I'd rather read someone's experience in a diary to learn. This diary implied I could order one on Amazon or e-bay, easy as pie. If that's not true, then it was "incredibly deceptive." Thanks for the enlightening discussion in the comments, everybody. (I may be extra naive in that I rarely use amazon or e-bay either, except for research.)
              On the other hand, one teen from Judgement Ridge bought an incredible knife online, although that was quite a while ago and rules may have changed. Could the teen have bought a giant hunting knife in person on his own?

          •  Knife sales are almost completely (9+ / 0-)

            unregulated online on a Federal level, and mostly governed by state laws. You'll have to certify you're over 18 or something like that, usually, unless the state you're trying to ship to has stricter regulations.

            (Hell, I was buying swords at a martial arts supplier at flea market back when I was 16)

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:05:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I wrote this diary and I never said it you could (9+ / 0-)

            order one on amazon or ebay - I don't believe ebay lists guns  -

            It is interesting the way some have interpreted this. I was careful to add every step that I took.

            I honestly was surprised at how it worked - but remembered seeing a show a while back about how easy it is to buy guns on theses sites.

            Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

            by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:22:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I understand that you're not intending to (11+ / 0-)

              deceive. But you really don't understand what you've read, and in doing so, are seriously misleading people.

              Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

              by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:39:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Man, oh man (7+ / 0-)

                He wrote a diary explaining what he saw.  Implicitly and explicitly, he's inviting comments and feedback.

                Please re-read this passage in the diary:

                Any loopholes here? Should it be this easy? How can this process possibly be changed? There are so many websites that sell guns this way, it is so anonymous, it is almost worse than a gun show.
                I would wish that those who had more knowledge on the subject would courteously respond with something like, "I know you're new at this. Let me explain..."  There's a huge difference of intent between "misunderstanding" and "deceiving."

                Someone may flame me for being the courtesy cop but here's the deal:  A heck of a lot of people who are naive about guns are trying to figure out what's possible to protect us all against gun violence.  When their efforts are met with condescension or ridicule, it creates more barriers towards arriving a mutual understandings that will lead to less gun violence.   Remarkably, I expect even the NRA now understands that it has stop its former way of demonizing critics and instead have a public face that is more "gentle" in order to have more influence on outcomes.  It's all about the art of persuasion.

                •  They don't have to be courteous. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SoCalSal, rustypatina, trumpeter, cany

                  They have the guns, remember?

                  There's a huge difference of intent between "misunderstanding" and "deceiving."
                  This. But we're the ones who are being mean to the gun owners.

                  An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

                  by Debby on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:25:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Well, to be completely honest (6+ / 0-)

              you did NOT buy a gun online last night as your title says.  Heck, you even back-pedaled in the first sentence in your diary where you said "well, almost."  That kind of misleading/deceptive headline is an example of yellow journalism.

              If you had really tried to finalize the purchase you would have been forced to specify your local FFL as a shipping point.

              Though I've not used the site you mention, I have bought handguns on line from another site and my local FFL was forced to fax their license to the seller before the seller could release the weapon to be shipped.

              And as a kicker, the local FFL charges you a nuisance/convenience fee which can be upwards of $40-$50 for their time and trouble to receive the weapon, contact you to come get it, and the background check.

              •  It's not back-pedaling. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SoCalSal, trumpeter

                Provocative headlines draw eyes. They're pretty common here and everywhere. In a very upfront matter, the diarist sets the scene from the first sentence.

                An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

                by Debby on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:28:47 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  you're right; it's not back-pedaling (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fuzzyguy, Robert in WV, deedogg

                  it's outright BS.  one can be "provocative" without complete falsehoods.

                  at no point did the author buy an AK47 online.  therefore, the diary title is not factual.

                  does the license to be provocative and sensational trump the obligation to be factually accurate?  hell no.  and i further submit that if one cannot make one's point without hyperbole and sensationalism, one hasn't much of a point.

                  Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                  by Cedwyn on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:12:46 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Stop playing dumb (4+ / 0-)

          "Deceptive" connotes an intention to distort the truth. Inaccurate, wrong, incomplete, untrue...any of these might have served just as well (though you yourself can't really know if the gun wouldn't come to your door unless you'd attempted to repeat the diarist's experiment).

          If you didn't mean to be insulting, then cop to that, but please don't insult the intelligence of all here with multiple expressions of naive innocence. You picked a loaded word. It isn't the first time you've done it. The diary doesn't fit into your preferred narrative of how gun law is enforced, and so you have taken an overly aggressive tone. I hope you recognize that many people react to such a tone by becoming silent, and therefore calling people "deceptive" can stifle debate. Which I thought the members of your group welcome with open arms.

          •  It's not about fitting narratives. (5+ / 0-)

            The diary is factually wrong; and misleading its readership.

            Misinformation is what's stifling the debate here.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:37:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And intent? THAT was his intent? (0+ / 0-)

              Because if it wasn't, it was not deceptive.

              202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

              by cany on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:44:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, and since we're talking about "playing dumb" (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound, Cedwyn, fuzzyguy, deedogg

            How is this not deceptive?

            I did this to see if I could buy ANY gun w/out a background check online.  It appears that this process is similar to a gun show.
            How is a switch to a focus on the seller's shipping requirements, when sellers have never been required to submit to a background check, not deceptive?

            The background check on the buyer happens when the buyer picks up the weapon shipped to the FFL dealer. Who shipped the firearm is irrelevant.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:16:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So just to be clear (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SoCalSal

              despite protestations to the diarist that you did not intend to imply conscious intent to deceive, you are now finding evidence of conscious intent to deceive?

              I do not think that word means what you think it means.

              "I disagree" and "You might be wrong" are other ways to make your point without assigning motive.

              Further context: you realize people were shocked by the killing of kids, and are seeking answers. If you have the answer ("don't worry there will still be background checks" [the efficiency of which are another subject for debate]) then you should by all means bring that argument forth. Why you insist on provocation, when your prerogative as a self-described authority gives you the opportunity to teach is mystifying. I actually take comfort in your suggestion that a background check will still be required (though I take no comfort in the standards of said background check). But when you act like a scold it really turns me off of what you have to say and I had to overcome a lot of resistance to read your comments in order to gain proper understanding.

    •  IF the seller chose to ship it to me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DefendOurConstitution

      Where is the background check? and if it isn't and automatic, then there isn't even a law to be skirted.

      And, really, I went through everything but putting a credit card into the final screen.  IF I chose another site and did it again, are you telling me there would be some other level of screening where someone would want my Soc Sec number and do a background check?

      Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

      by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:14:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The seller *CAN NOT* ship it to you. (13+ / 0-)

        From your own citation:

        The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you.
        The gun is shipped to an FFL dealer near you. You go to the FFL dealer. You fill out the paperwork. You submit to the background check. If you pass, you get your gun, after you pay the FFL dealer for the courtesy of the transfer service.

        Considering how completely you have misunderstood the process, and how badly many of your readers are being mislead because of your misunderstanding, you need to correct your diary.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:22:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  copied and pasted from how to sell on this site (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DefendOurConstitution, trumpeter

          please note - before the GA drop off options the option is TO SHIP IT YOURSELF.

          If you sell a gun you can:

          Ship it Yourself

          ... Or Use a GunsAmerica Dropoff Location

          How it Works
          Option 1 - Sell it Yourself

              The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into his "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer´s state. So you, as the true seller of the gun, have established a clear paper trail for the gun that you need not ever maintain (even if an FFL dealer gives up his license his bound book is turned into the ATF). This is the simplest approach because nothing changes with your interaction with GunsAmerica and the buyer. You get to describe the gun, decide who it is sold to and how much it is sold for. And if the gun doesn´t sell there is no transfer of the gun back to you. You also pay a simple up front fee, not a commission on the sale itself.

          Option 2 - Sell on Consignment

              Many of our GA Drop Off Location dealers will take the gun in on consignment for you and handle the sale completely. The gun may be sold in their store, on their website or through an ad at GunsAmerica. Those terms you work out with them and the fees for the sale are stated in advance. You also must take into account that the gun might not sell and may have to be transferred back to you. The dealer himself may want to buy the gun outright as well, so your options are varied from dealer to dealer.

          Click Here to find the closest drop off location

          FFL Dealers Click Here to become a GunsAmerica Drop Off Location

          Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

          by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:25:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And you simply doesn't understand what's written. (13+ / 0-)

            Let me pull from your own quote and emphasize the imprtant parts.

            local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into his "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer´s state.
            The chain of custody in this case is:
            seller -> FFL dealer local to the seller -> FFL dealer local to the buyer -> background check and transfer paperwork -> buyer.

            At no point is it "shipped to you".

            You may have been able to pay for the gun, but it's not shipped to you, and isn't put into your hands until you submit to the background check.

            "On consignment" differs only in that a FFL dealer may get a customer requesting a specific gun for a special order, and goes to the online broker to find a source for it. And once again, the chain of custody and background check requirements are the same.

            The talk about paperwork simply means that it's the FFL dealers who become responsible for maintaining it (whether it's the transfer from seller to first FFL dealer, or between FFL dealers, or from the 2nd FFL dealer to you). The paperwork is still being kept, but it's being kept by licensed professionals, not the individual seller.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:34:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  please, read the whole page (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DefendOurConstitution, trumpeter

          This is AN OPTION FOR SELLERS.
          Option one is ship it yourself.

          Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

          by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:21:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  The seller could not legally ship to you... (12+ / 0-)

        They must ship it to a licensed dealer, or they're breaking the law.

        All shipping services I know of abide by those laws those laws.  As robo stated above, UPS won't even take the package if the destination isn't a licensed dealer or manufacturer.

    •  I think that's very unjust to the diarist. (4+ / 0-)

      He was trying to see how it works and went as far as he could without spending money to buy something he didn't want. Calling it "deceptive" implies intent on the part of the diarist.

    •  If the gun gets shipped to a licensed dealer (4+ / 0-)

      And the buyer has to go through the same checks as buying in person, with the same records kept, I really don't see a problem.

      The problem is even being able to buy a gun like this. It's not a hunting gun. There are other, more appropriate guns that can be used for protection, if you feel that's necessary.

  •  While not caring to visit the site, wondering (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DefendOurConstitution, Temmoku, Debby

    whether you learned anything about the purchase of ammunition while there?

    Noted that your "purchase" included one 30 round magazine...

  •  Good news is we have an (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DefendOurConstitution, profewalt

    electronic paper trail. We know who baught them and where they live. When Pres. Obama outlaws them, we know where to send the police.

  •  you're not right (8+ / 0-)

    if you had gone a little further, you would have had to ship it to a dealer

  •  And yet online cigarette sales are a no-no, (4+ / 0-)

    going across state lines to buy booze will land your ass in a sling, and I seem to recall seeing recently that interstate wine sales are just now starting to be allowed (at least here in Ohio).

    At the same time it's getting so women in some states will have to cross state lines for certain services.

    I keep saying: if you really want to knock down sales (especially ammo sales) you need to do it like they've done with smokes and abortion providers: get the credit card companies to refuse interstate purchases, and use local zoning to close down brick and mortar presence.

    You'll probably never ban the things, but you sure can put up a lot of walls in terms of acquiring them.  Fair's fair / goose gander / etc.

     

    Republicans did to Michigan what Apple did to iTunes.

    by here4tehbeer on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:01:37 AM PST

    •  "Going across state lines to buy booze..." (6+ / 0-)

      Huh?  Citation, please?

      As long as it's for personal use or a gift, people do this all the time.  

      Hell, they specialize in it at airports.

      I proudly take cases of Charles Shaw to my family in Salt Lake every time I go there.  Sometimes some good scotch too.

      Yay, I'm a bootlegger!!!

      •  Back when there was way more of a price disparity (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fuzzyguy

        (and a state-based sales monopoly) lots of people (like my folks) would trek down the highway from Ohio and over the river into Kentucky to stock up on booze and smokes because the prices -- specifically the taxes -- were significantly lower. I remember they'd buy cartons upon cartons of cigarettes and boxes full of booze, maybe visit a relative in the area, then head back home.

        If you went Southbound down I-71through Cincy and across one of the bridges over the Ohio river you'd see on the KY side massive liquor stores catering to people like this.

        The revenuers didn't like this at all as you can imagine, and sometimes would stop cars going back over the bridges into OH.

        I'm not talking about taking a couple of fifths to Grandma's house as a gift (or to just make it through the holidays at Grandma's house), I'm talking about crossing state lines to purchase large quantities of stuff that's just as accessible in your own state specifically to avoid your home state's taxes and deprive the state of all those profits.

        Maybe this isn't much of an issue any more -- way back then there was a huge difference in prices between OH and KY, and Ohio's liquor sales were all controlled by state-run stores (which is now not the case as of just a few years ago).

        As for interstate wine sales, I may have been relying on fuzzy memory (I'm not a wine drinker or vintner).  Apparently there was a SCOTUS case back in 2005 that opened up interstate wine sales. More recently are laws trying to roll that back in some instances.

        Also: Alaska, for example, has fairly strict transport laws covering alcoholic beverages, especially via airplane, which exist more to cut down on bootlegging-for-resale to "dry" areas...

        Many communities in Alaska have banned the importation, sale, and/or possession of alcohol within their boundaries. Pilots flying within Alaska are well advised to determine whether their destination is one which does not allow alcohol. Some local governments require that all persons arriving at the airport submit to a personal search before being allowed to enter the village. Pilots need to be aware that landing with alcohol aboard in villages which prohibit alcohol may result in confiscation of their aircraft.
        It's never easy :)

        Republicans did to Michigan what Apple did to iTunes.

        by here4tehbeer on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:27:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Related to this.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea

          Any Massachusetts/New Hampshire I-93 area residents reading?  

          What's the first business visible from the highway driving from Mass to NH, going north on I-93?

          Glass of single-malt for the first correct answer....  8>)

          •  I suppose I should know the answer (0+ / 0-)

            But I am often too busy concentrating on getting safely up to exit 1.

            I don't know which lie to believe anymore.

            by Captain Janeway on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 03:52:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  many answers for I-93 - I-95 (0+ / 0-)

              1) the rest area, which doubles as the DOT weigh station.
              Where the Border Guards collect revenue for the State of NH*

              2) The Salem NH Mall area, with Home Depot's parking lot filled with MA plates, evading MA sales taxes, while the Tewksbury MA Home Depot does 1/3 the volume of business.

              * and keep Wacky Doug from infiltrating.

              Now if you were to cite I-95... well, THAT would be the NH State Liquor Stores, where you can gather all the illegal cheap booze you need for your Maine Vacationland experience.
              The same Stores which also give you a chance to stock-up southbound and violate Mass liquor laws too.

              REAL fun, was a TV station (Boston) hidden camera catching a MA Liquor Commissioner stocking-up on cheap NH State booze, and driving over the border.

    •  Where do you live? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      trumpeter

      No place in THIS country. PA used to sell all liquor, even beer and wine, at state run liquor store (and hard liquor still is) and people woul go to jersey on Sunday to buy their booze.

      DE liquor stores used to be closed on Sundays, people ran to Md all the time on Sunday. He'll, there's a decent sized liquor store in marydel, right across the border, that did a great business on Sunday.

      It hasn't been a big deal since the repeal of prohibition.

      •  It happens all the time (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fuzzyguy

        but it is illegal in PA.

        Pennsylvania Liquor Code Section 4-491 (2)

        It shall be unlawful--

        [...]

        Possession or transportation of liquor or alcohol

           (2) For any person, except a manufacturer or the board or the holder of a sacramental wine license or of an importer's license, to possess or transport any liquor or alcohol within this Commonwealth which was not lawfully acquired prior to January first, one thousand nine hundred and thirty-four, or has not been purchased from a Pennsylvania Liquor Store or a licensed limited winery in Pennsylvania, except in accordance with section 488 or the board's regulations. In addition, it shall be lawful for anyone to possess miniatures totaling less than one gallon purchased in another state or a foreign country. The burden shall be upon the person possessing or transporting such liquor or alcohol to prove that it was so acquired.  

      •  Please see my reply to PavePusher just above. (0+ / 0-)

        Republicans did to Michigan what Apple did to iTunes.

        by here4tehbeer on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:29:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  To buy my ADD medication I have to appear in (6+ / 0-)

    person at my local drugstore and, even though they know me, I have to present ID every time.

    The easy access to high capacity weapons that can deliver dozens of bullets in a few seconds is an outrage.  These weapons have no value for hunting or for personal protection, they are solely used for mass killing and terrorizing people.

    It is high time that our elected officials stop being afraid of the terrorists in the NRA and the apologists that support the NRA terror.  I don't recall anything in the 27 word Constitution that they worship (sans the "well regulated" part) where it talked about easy access to those "arms" or where it defended using them to terrorize the Country.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:10:54 AM PST

  •  The stupid ... it burns (11+ / 0-)

    Could the gun control advocates please do themselves a favor and educate themselves enough to have a modicum of credibility with the other side?

    1. You cannot complete an online gun purchase without involving a licensed gun dealer. You can sell to an individual, but the transfer has to be conducted by a licensed dealer. Your story would have been quite sensational if only it were true.

    2. Civilian "assault weapons" are not true military weapons. Functionally, they aren't much different than a semi-auto hunting rifle. One trigger pull, one bullet. The major difference is that a hunting rifle does not have a high capacity, detachable magazine, since most states that allow them, limit you to 5-6 rounds.

    So yes, ban high capacity, easily detachable magazines and do a buy back of current magazines. That might actually work and wouldn't cost too much. But if you ban the AK, you'll just see  similar guns, functionally speaking, sold as mild mannered hunting rifles, with tactical stock kits and magazines sold separately.

    Kill them with kindness. If that fails, just kill them.

    by JesusQ on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:43:23 AM PST

  •  Thanks for this frightening post (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DefendOurConstitution, Miggles, 1BQ

    We all pretty much know but it needed to be said.
    Frightening shit.
    Thanks-
    m

  •  It's sad to see that the NRA apologists among us (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    sporks, profewalt
    Hidden by:
    Tom Seaview

    are out in full force attacking the diarist with words like "stupid" and calling the diary deceptive without even offering a shred of proof of any of their claims.

    I guess their allegiance to the NRA (and the terror that the NRA brings us) is much more important than an open discussion on what we can do to end the regime of domestic terrorism that we are living under, let alone consider ways to save innocent lives.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:22:41 AM PST

    •  The diarist disproves his own claim in this (10+ / 0-)

      paragraph:

      The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into [the local FFL dealer's] "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer's state.
      The diarist simply doesn't understand what sentence means.

      The way these sales work is you, the seller, agree to the sale. You take the gun to a cooperating FFL dealer, who can legally transfer the gun to another FFL dealer elsewhere. The buyer has to go to the second FFL dealer to pick up the gun, but before he can do so, he must submit to the background check and fill out the paperwork.

      Both buyer and seller will also have to pay their respective dealers for the courtesy of handling the transfer, unless that cost is paid upfront through the broker site because the dealer have registered to participate with the site in advance.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:27:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  that is a seller (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DefendOurConstitution, trumpeter

        option.

        Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

        by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:23:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  One not open to non-FFL sellers. (6+ / 0-)

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:35:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, I stand corrected. It is lawful to ship (8+ / 0-)

          the gun yourself to a licensed FFL dealer in every state, per the BATF's website.

          Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
          A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

          [18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

          Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
          A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

          [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

          (In-state transfers are governed by state laws, not Federal ones)

          What you don't seem to realize, though, is that this is not a transfer that comes without paperwork. The FFL dealer taking possession of the firearm must maintain a record of the transfer. That's what the talk about the "bound book" means.

          The buyer may not have the weapon shipped to himself.

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:45:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Question for you (0+ / 0-)

            Does this part mean that neither the seller or buyer needs to be licensed if it is in-state?

            A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State
            •  No, it means that the transfer will be (0+ / 0-)

              governed by state, rather than Federal law.

              This is because the Constitution only grants the Federal government power over interstate commerce.

              I'm guessing that state laws mirror Federal on this point, with few exceptions.

              Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

              by Robobagpiper on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:36:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  I don't believe anyone called the diarist "stupid" (5+ / 0-)

      ...merely the diary.

      Because it was.

  •  Not exactly that easy (12+ / 0-)

    Had you completed the purchase you would have found that the "AK" would not have been able to be shipped to you directly unless you are a liscensed dealer.  It becomes the FFL dealers job to perform the background check before handing the weapon over to you.  

    1. You order the weapon and have it shipped to a local gun store or a local FFL dealer

    2.  The local gun store or FFL dealer does the paperwork as if he/she is selling you the weapon.  The FFL dealer is responsible for the background check and making sure you are able to legally own the weapon.

    3.  You will pay the FFL dealer a fee (Depending on the dealer the amount is usually between $30-$60 in my experience) to recieve the weapon and do the paperwork before you can pick up the weapon

    I am admitedly more conservative and would call myself a libertarian.  I don't have a big problem with this system as the background check is being completed for this weapon.  However I am a bit of a black sheep among my friends as some of my views do happen to line up very well with some of those on this site.  This topic just doesn't happen to be one of them.  I will say I do have some concerns with gun show loopholes.  I believe that background checks do need to be done to insure that those with a history of mental illness or with a history of violent crime can not get their hands on these weapons

    I have no issue with the weapon itself.  This weapon is not fully automatic.  In fact, it is illegal to own a fully automatic weapon in the united states unless you have a class 3.  These are pretty much reserved or those in law enforcement, gun smiths who fix them, and dealers who sell them.  This weapon is no different than any other semi-automatic rifle other than it's 'looks' and it's 30 round magazine.    

    I hope this helps to answer your question and while we may disagree on this particular topic I hope I was able to bring something of value to the discussion.  It is through healthy debate and discussion that we may better hope to understand each other and see the world through each others eyes.  God bless and have a merry Christmas =)

    •  Finally! Civilized commentary on the diary and (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Debby, profewalt, Sailorben

      the diarist's perspective.

      The gun supporters do their cause no favors by lowering the tone of the dialogue. This makes it seem that the angriest of people are those that strongly support the right to bear arms, and they are often very hostile in their support of their right to bear them.

      I'm a gun-owner and hunt and target shoot. But I refuse to be drawn into these debates because of the rancor on the part of the gun lobby. It is particularly unpleasant right now after the recent killings.

      Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.,

      by 4Freedom on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:15:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Judging by the nasty tone, it seems that the NRA (8+ / 1-)

    apologists among us are feeling that enough time has passed so they can deliver they talking points.  It won't be long before they start attacking anyone that dares to even talk about their sacred 27 word Constitution (without the "well regulated" part of course) in anything less than awe, they will start ganging up on commenters and diarists to make sure the conversation stops, and soon they will even start telling us (again) that "guns don't kill people ..."

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:31:23 AM PST

  •  Please update your diary... (14+ / 0-)

    Several folks have pointed out the inaccuracies in your diary (including its somewhat deceptive title), and additional comments indicate that readers, in turn, are being misinformed.

    Simply put - as soon as you see things like "FFL dealer handles the transfer" and "bound book," you're in the regulated world of legal firearms transfers, where background checks take place as a matter of routine.  (Here's a quick explanation of how FFLs go about doing background checks, courtesy of the FBI.)

    You really need to update the diary.  You didn't understand what you read (you even quoted the part about 'local FFL dealer handles the transfer' and 'into his bound book'), and your lack of understanding is misinfoming others on an issue which demands a clear understanding of the facts.

  •  you arranged for shipment to an FFL (8+ / 0-)

    The FFL is required to do the background check before you can take possession of the firearm.  They will check you since they don't want to lose their license. If they have reason to believe that you are a "straw purchaser" (someone who is buying a firearm for someone who can't), then they are not allowed to let you take possession - and there are dealers who have gone to prison for this (rightly).

    You can order a muzzleloader online without a background check, but they are rather difficult to fire if you don't know what you're doing and even harder to fire rapidly.

    You can also order all the parts for an ar-15 clone online, except for the receiver - which is needed to assemble a working firearm.  That you have to go to a dealer for, and have a background check. You can buy an 80% complete receiver online without a background check, and if you have the machine shop and skills turn that into a working receiver - but it isn't easy to do.  If you make your own receiver you cannot legally transfer the firearm to someone else.  (Firearm manufacturers need a special license.)

    Background checks are, of course, only as good as the state databases. One real problem is that a fair number of unbalanced and criminal people manage to stay out of the databases. Not all of the states put the resources into good databases.

    There are a couple of kinds of FFL - modern firearms require that the dealer have a serious commercial intent. There is another, curio or relic (C&R) which is specific for obsolete and collectable firearms (things that are hard to find ammunition for, have historical significance, or are quite old). C&R licenses could be a prototype for a wider licensing scheme that would not be too onerous for legitimate gun owners.

    This is different from the "gun show loophole" where individuals are supposedly selling to each other privately. The loophole is an abomination.

  •  Upshot: Very few people know WHAT the f**k the (6+ / 0-)

    real rules are about for buying and owning guns in the US -- few except very knowledgeable gun owners (and what percent of gun owners are those?). This is the same fkkn mess we have with our banking laws, our criminal laws, workplace rights laws,  environmental protection laws, and a whole  slew of other laws -- ONLY LAWYERS UNDERSTAND THEM, because ONLY LAWYERS write up these dense, deceptively weaselly-worded documents full of hidden loopholes and select privileges for those  who pay them to write them up.
    the PROCESS of writing laws MUST BE CHANGED.

    Ash-sha'b yurid isqat an-nizzam!

    by fourthcornerman on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:03:37 AM PST

    •  So we should go to the Herman Cain School (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rockhound

      of laws should only be no more than 3 pages?

      Seriously?

      C'mon tell me this is snark please.

      •  Right --because (0+ / 0-)

        to be understood without 978 pages of legal definitions.
        "Keep to the right."
        "Marijauna is legal."
        "You have the right to life, liberty, and happiness."
        "All income above $250,000 is taxed at 35%."
        Nobody without 16 years of law school and 20 years of practice has any idea what these rules mean.
        Right. I assume YOU have those above legal qualifications.

        Ash-sha'b yurid isqat an-nizzam!

        by fourthcornerman on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 04:32:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  No....you didn't. (5+ / 0-)

    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:16:28 AM PST

  •  Plus if you were trying to buy a pistol you would (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, fuzzyguy, deedogg

    have to go through the three day waiting period - which is actually an effective five day period because the day you come in and fill out the paper work doesn't count as one of the days and the day you pick it up doesn't count. Also, it is five business days so that if the pistol you ordered on line came in to the FFL dealer on Wednesday and you hustled down to his shop and filled out your paper work you couldn't pick up the gun until Tuesday of the next week at which time he would call in your information  and clear you with the Feds. Only then would you pay, and he would hand over the pistol to you. The only exemptions to the three day/five day waiting period is if you have a concealed carry license. There is also a fee that most FFL dealers charge - anywhere from $15 to $50.

    There is also a Curio and Relic license which will let you have some older guns shipped directly to you. But you have to be registered with the Feds and there is a yearly fee for the license.  

    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright" Curt Siodmak

    by Wisdumb on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:05:29 AM PST

    •  When I said "only then you would pay" I meant pay (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fuzzyguy, deedogg

      the FFL dealer his fee for the transfer. You would have already paid the person you were buying the gun from online. And like an earlier commented posted if you can't get the gun from your FFL dealer the gun goes back to the the seller and he can charge you whatever fee he wants for your failure to make sure you were qualified to own the gun.

      "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright" Curt Siodmak

      by Wisdumb on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:09:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The waiting period was replaced with the instant (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tom Seaview, fuzzyguy, deedogg

      background check years ago.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:29:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong. The waiting period for handguns is still (0+ / 0-)

        very much in effect. I bought a PPK/S a few months ago and am waiting on a Nagant right now. It will come into my FFL Dealer shop - probably on Thursday. At the gun show I was at a month ago the only loophole for the handgun waiting period is if you are buying from and individual, are trading a handgun in or have a CCL. If you buy from a handgun from a dealer at a gun show he will arrange with a local FFL to keep your handgun during the waiting period.

        "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright" Curt Siodmak

        by Wisdumb on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:37:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You may be confused because when they do the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        deedogg

        background check it is "instant". They did it by phone up until about two months ago when it went online. But you still have to wait from the period you fill out the paper work - 3/5 days and then the dealer will do the background check and you take possession of the gun.

        "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright" Curt Siodmak

        by Wisdumb on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:42:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Be afraid, be very afraid - the guys that aid and (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    profewalt, 1BQ, WakeUpNeo

    abet the NRA by constantly repeating their talking points are out the HRing anyone that calls them out for their support of the NRA positions.  I guess I'll wear their HRs as a badge of honor.

    I have typically shied away from any diaries they try to take over (as they are here) or going into any of their diaries, but I will not be silenced anymore.  The NRA has instituted a reign of terror, not just over all of us but also over politicians, and I have the right AND the obligation to call out those people that are aiding and abetting the NRA reign of terror.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:14:01 AM PST

  •  This is somewhat misleading. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Debby, Cedwyn, WakeUpNeo

    Very true you can buy an gun online.

    However any modern gun has to go thru a FFL in order to go interstate.

    When it gets to the FFL and you go to get it, then he can't give it to you if you don't pass the background check or qualify under the laws of your state.

    It is entirely true that if both seller and buyer are in the same state no FFL is needed.  This is the same thing as the gun show loophole, where face to face sales in state are legal with no paperwork.

    •  Only if the sale is legal under state law. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tom Seaview, fuzzyguy, deedogg

      The reason Federal law doesn't regulate such sales is that the Federal government, lacking plenary power, only can pass such laws as the Federal Constitution permits. State governments have plenary power, meaning they can pass any law not prohibited by their state, or the Federal, Constitution.

      The Federal government's regulation of economic transactions is limited to interstate commerce (though SCOTUS rulings have expanded this to include, under certain conditions, intrastate commerce that can be shown to strongly impact interstate commerce).

      The absence, thus, of Federal laws regarding intrastate sales of this sort should not be taken necessarily to mean that state laws of a similar nature do not exist.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:33:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Or you can go to any gun show (6+ / 0-)

    And buy whatever is on sale there without a background check at all.  While stark raving mad.  Or here is another idea:  steal the assault rifle from someone who lives with you, and then do whatever you want.

    •  In most states that's true. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joe Bob

      There are several states that regulate intrastate gun show sales and enforce background checks, and perhaps that's a tack we need to pursue...encouraging the remaining state legislatures to follow along.

    •  Not entirely true. (6+ / 0-)

      Most dealers at gun shows are FFL dealers, meaning they have to go through the same background check process, same transfer documentation, as they would at their brick-and-mortar store.

      That smaller portion of people selling at gun shows who are not FFL holders, but private sellers unloading part of their collection, may sell person-to-person without paperwork, same as at any other locale - but are limited in how much and often they can sell guns before they are deemed an "unlicensed dealer" (a felony offense) by the BATF.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:36:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Furthermore, this is a summary of Federal law (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tom Seaview, rockhound, fuzzyguy, deedogg

        States sometimes have further restrictions.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:45:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly this (4+ / 0-)

        I bought my first pistol at a gun show, from a local dealer who had set up a table.  I had to go through the entire background check.

        I bought my most recent pistol from an individual at a gun show, and had to sign a declaration that I was eligible to own this gun.  The owner and I both live in MO, so it was covered by the intrastate selling laws.  I am assuming that the seller kept my information for his records, because if this pistol was ever misused, the serial number would trace back to the original owner, who would be best served by having signed proof that the weapon had been sold to someone else.

        In the long run, every gun has a paper trail.  No manufacturers will sell to an individual without the full background check, so the trail starts there.  If the gun is sold through a dealer, they maintain the paper trail.  If an individual buys it, the seller needs to keep track of that in case they need to provide proof of transfer.

        If a gun is stolen, the serial number should be reported to the police, which breaks the chain of custody from the current owner.

    •  Here's my experience (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deedogg

      I bought my one and only pistol I own at a gun show. I completed a background check, passed, then purchased the gun.  

      "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

      by Texas Lefty on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:09:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I actually did buy a rifle online a month ago (5+ / 0-)

    It's a CZ 455 American .22 caliber.  Great rifle for target practice and small game hunting. The only reason I went online is because I couldn't find it at any of the local gun shops. I think this diary is slightly misleading as others have mentioned. I had it shipped to a local FFL dealer and he also did my federal background check.  

    "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

    by Texas Lefty on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:31:05 AM PST

  •  I sold a gun once (0+ / 0-)

    Over the internet. It was relatively easy. What WAS a major pain in the ass was shipping the ammo, which by law can not be mailed via USPS.  It must be mailed via FedEx / UPS and may not be sent on an airplane. And drivers may not pick up a hazardous package for ground transportation. Luckily I lived near a FedEx shipping hub and was able to personally take it to them.  Also, I got 3 different answers when calling FedEx about it, and got quoted $120 to mail a case of 1,000 rounds.  Eventually I sent it off for $23.

    You will not rest, settle for less • Until you guzzle and squander whats left • Do not deny that you live and let die - MUSE

    by bondibox on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:58:06 AM PST

  •  Assuming there's no ban.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KVoimakas, deedogg

    ...I plan on doing the same, except following through, with my tax refund.

    I think I'll go for a WASR, though.

  •  This is entirely ridiculous. (2+ / 0-)

    Apparently, this diarist doesn't know the intricacies of purchasing lethal weapons online (which isn't a scandal in and of itself, of course) as well as the gun advocates on this site. Oh, the outrage!

    Cry me a fucking river.

    What's at issue here is the low barrier to entry to firearms possession. Full stop. I had zero idea that you can buy this shit online to begin with.

    And I work in fucking new media.

    So instead of whining piercingly about inaccuracies, allow me to suggest that the commenters ripping the diarist for unintentional errors of fact – and face it, boys and girls, a lot of us here don't give nearly as much of a crap about firearms as you do – you lay out some thoughts on whether it's appropriate to sell instruments of death this easily, and how the rest of us can be made safer from this depravity. Like we all wish those twenty babies in Connecticut would have been kept safe. Any thoughts on that, other than "nothing to see here, move on"?

    Oh, you say the system works? Fuck that idea. It doesn't.

    Fuck you, I put on pants yesterday.

    by MBNYC on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:14:25 AM PST

  •  Thanks for posting this. (4+ / 4-)

    And thanks for putting up with the pro-massacre trolls infesting the comments.

    "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

    by nosleep4u on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:20:23 AM PST

  •  With the exception of face-to-face sales* (5+ / 0-)

    *though some states still do mandate it.

    all firearms sales require a 4473 form to be filled out.

    Internet sales only mean that the site that you are purchasing the gun from will ship it only to an FFL licensee.  They will then require you to fill out a form 4473 and meet all the attending requirements of identification and passing the NICS background check.

    They still can deny you the transfer even if you do pass the NICS check if they have reasonable cause to believe that the transfer would violate the law.

    A Firearms Transaction Record, or Form 4473, is a United States government form that MUST be filled out when a person purchases a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (such as a gun shop).

    The Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is simply denied by the NICS, although prosecutions are rare in the absence of another felony committed with the gun purchased.

    The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this on file at least 20 years and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.
    If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473, though some states require individual sellers to sell through dealers.

    Have you hugged your Boeuf Bourguignon today?

    by wretchedhive on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:21:39 AM PST

    •  Hello! Diarist here. interesting discussions-but (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WakeUpNeo

      This diary has been ripped to shreds, yet you all who are copying and pasting laws etc are missing the point all together. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THESE LAWS ARE FOLLOWED?

      A friend registered to sell- no license.

      yep the laws are stated during the registration process.
      Yes you click you read the law.
      Sell your gun and then

      OPTIONS FOR SHIPPING:

      SHIP IT YOURSELF

      or OPTION 1- USE AN FFL LICENSED DEALER - AND IF YOU CHOOSE THAT WE CAN HELP.

      OPTION 2 -consignment w/an ffl dealer (didn't add that to the diary)

      If I sell, and offer only to take a money order, put my phone number etc up on the selling site - click on one or two of the examples in the diary as they do just this - HOW is any of this recorded? One of the guns we looked at last night was deleted.  

      you guys all assume that people are following the law.
      READ THIS

      Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

      by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:42:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's a question for the regulatory agencies, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        deedogg, rockhound, fuzzyguy

        and postal inspectors.  I was not editorializing in any way, there was a lack of the language used in the requirements of the 4473 form

        I think that you're misreading the language when they say, "ship it yourself".

        That means although you have the option of bypassing an FFL licensee on your end, you still have to ship it to an FFL licensee on the other end.

        You simply cannot directly ship a firearm to the buyer unless they have a federal license.

        Of course criminals are going to circumvent the law, but they are not going to be using a known website such as Gunbroker or Buds.  They'll be using deepweb marketplaces such as Silk Road or whatever they do.

  •  I don't mean to be picky, but PRECISION in words.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    deedogg

    You aren't doing ANYTHING with an AK47, and neither is all the reports in the news.

    An AK-47 is a FULL AUTO Military weapon, of which the Soviet Union and it's satellite states like Czechoslovakia manufactured somewhere between 500 MILLION and 1 BILLION over the course of decades, and China and North Korea have also manufactured in the 500 MILLION to 1 BILLION range.

    A considerable number of those weapons are floating around the world in the black market. I just want to put things in perspective, precise language matters. None of the guns you were looking at are AK-47's.

    Just as the AR-15's are not M4 Military automatics that the Marines and Army Special Forces use.

    We have made MILLIONS of M4's and supplied them around the world as well.

    I point this out because I'm so tired of the talking heads and idiots of the news media talking out their asses about this stuff and the imprecision with which they speak only spotlights how little thought and research they have done on the subject at all. Verbal diarrhea for hours and hours every day in complete ignorance of even the simplest facts on the matter.

    •  they are listed in the category of AK47 or copies (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Jester

      the AK47 we put into a shopping cart and were going to buy last night -was deleted this morning.... as a matter of fact several we looked at last night were deleted -  and it was pointed out to me that several of those guns offered money orders in their payment options.

      that makes a sale completely outside of the process and completely off the books completely possible.

      Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

      by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:37:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I own a few guns. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Texas Lefty

    I've purchased a couple on line from businesses in Texas and on the east coast, and they were sent to my dealer.  My dealer has also purchased a couple for me, on-line, when he was able to get them at a dealer price.

    I could have purchased them in person from Cabela's or any gun store, and they would have been routed through my dealer every single time.  I could also go to a store here in California, and pick the gun up directly from the dealer at the store.

    The way it works is you order and pay for your item, it gets shipped to the dealer, and then you go complete the paperwork and the background check before you are able to pick up the gun.  Here in CA, the wait time is 10 days from completing the background check paperwork, to picking up the firearm, if the background check completed in that time period.

    I live in California, where every transaction must go through a dealer who will do the background checks.  Other states permit a sale between a non-dealer and a buyer in private, a parking lot perhaps, as long as the seller has no reason to believe the buyer is a convicted felon or otherwise unable to purchase.  

    This is a problem, one that has been identified.  I am fully on board with eliminating person-to-person transfers.  Run all gun transactions through a dealer, so there is a paper trail to every serial number.  Make the private sales that circumvent the background checks illegal, and we have done something constructive.

    I personally don't  like "assault weapons", I think they are ugly and would rather spend my money on something else.

    Limiting the capacity of magazines to 10 is also something I can live with, and that is the law here in CA, at least for magazines that were not possessed in 1998 or whenever it was that the law limited  magazine capacity to ten rounds.

    ...someday - the armies of bitterness will all be going the same way. And they'll all walk together, and there'll be a dead terror from it. --Steinbeck

    by Seldom Seen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:58:08 AM PST

    •  the problem w/selling on these sites is (0+ / 0-)

      there is absolutely no way to know how the guns get from one place to another -

      yes they tell the seller the law and
      yes the seller agrees they know the law

      and yes - as I posted in the diary they offer a service to use someone's license (network they setup) to make the transfer, legally -
      they offer that service TO THE SELLER not the buyer. They clearly say in the seller setup that  you can ship it yourself (we've told you the law - up to you to follow it) or you can use the service (we can make sure you follow the law)

      But there is no way to know who follows the law. And, that's the problem.

      Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

      by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:51:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Chris Rock said it best, TAX BULLETS (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    51percent

    they can be buying all the guns they want, tax the bullets, a bullet should cost $2,000-$10,000, let me see who would be buying and using gun then.

  •  just read comments -the NRA and gun supporters are (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WakeUpNeo, sporks, bontemps2012

    alive and well on DK.
    If anyone who has declared the diary deceptive is still peeking in-
    The whole point of this was:

    - yep, many of us are ignorant about buying guns online.

    - despite what many of you said, a friend registered to sell - NO LICENSE - and just like it says on their website the options for a seller to get a gun to a buyer ARE:

     - SHIP IT YOURSELF to the buyer
    -----  OR  -----
    Arrange to use a FFL

    -Yes the people running the site tell sellers what the law is, but how is it enforced?

    AND you are missing the point here, how are the laws you've cited, copied and pasted, and railed about, enforced here? I didn't include the details, but several of these sellers at least one in the list now in diary, included  personal information, phone number etc - and take money orders.   In didn't include the phone number etc in the diary b/c I didn't think it was good idea. Follow the link.

    And, as a buyer, where along the way does The Dude taking money orders and giving you his phone number check that you've had a federal background check? Does he know the permit/sales laws in my state?

    And why is anyone allowed to sell any automatic, semiautomatic weapons online?

    Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

    by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:25:48 PM PST

  •  One alternative is the Australian system. (0+ / 0-)

    Communication from Australian MP Kelvin Thomson in this DKOS diary:

    How Australia Eliminated Gun Massacres. A New Position for the Democratic Party
    There is also a White House petition up supporting this Australian National Firearms Agreement.
    Adopt Australia's gun laws which have eliminated 100% of gun massacres since adoption in 1996 with no effect on hunting.
    That went up today.

    Can't hurt to encourage Biden to go with the Australian system. It works. It reduces violence overall. The only losers are the Gun Biz who see sales of assault rifles go away.

    "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

    by bontemps2012 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 09:12:10 AM PST

  •  You paid to much (0+ / 0-)

    You paid to much, if all these ban-all-gun freaks would just go away, you could get it for half that. http://www.ficksitall.blogspot.com

Thumb, vicki, Mogolori, Radiowalla, True North, MadRuth, teacherken, LynChi, donna in evanston, Wintermute, celdd, eeff, HootieMcBoob, Do Something, sponson, annrose, stevej, cosmic debris, mrblifil, Transmission, farmerhunt, MazeDancer, jalbert, librarianman, Iberian, kharma, Getreal1246, psnyder, NYC Sophia, Steven Payne, lcrp, 313to212, zerelda, ybruti, Steven D, humphrey, Explorer8939, EJP in Maine, majcmb1, Sun Tzu, Dem Beans, peteri2, RichterScale, SocioSam, tommymet, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, cybersaur, Mr Bojangles, Clytemnestra, blueoasis, global citizen, StrayCat, 4Freedom, gooderservice, JVolvo, unclebucky, CTLiberal, MBNYC, democracy is coming, means are the ends, bstotts, blueintheface, marykk, out of left field, mattinjersey, Deadicated Marxist, la urracca, cyncynical, gundyj, mconvente, dadadata, binkaroni, grumpelstillchen, filby, Buckeye Nut Schell, Sharon Wraight, triplepoint, Troubadour, Nica24, DavidW, statsone, MrsTarquinBiscuitbarrel, Zotz, WakeUpNeo, DefendOurConstitution, elziax, johnosahon, Keith Pickering, Little Flower, astral66, Leftcandid, Its the Supreme Court Stupid, miss SPED, gramofsam1, eb23, Crabby Abbey, Giles Goat Boy, Anak, Eddie L, samanthab, j b norton, Betty Pinson, nosleep4u, dwayne, spooks51, trumpeter, AgavePup, chira2, FisherOfRolando, Hayate Yagami, Miggles, stlsophos, daysey, i saw an old tree today, OldDragon, StonyB, rustypatina, a2nite, jan4insight, PowWowPollock, Glen The Plumber, nuclear winter solstice, motherlu, Yo Bubba, Smoh, bontemps2012, downtownLALife

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site