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First may I thank and congratulate fellow KOS diarist Bob, whose excellent Open Letter can be found here at Give it a read.

Bob obviously is one of those old time NRA types - the ones who were taken out in the coup that happened some time around the end of the 1970s. I feel sorry for Bob, and all the others like him, as poor Bob gets lumped in with all the nutty Strict Seconders. I gotta say, I like Bob, I like what he says, and my props to him for standing up to the asshats.

Still, as I commented on his diary, and will expand upon here, lets have a honest look at that (I would suggest) oxymoronic term Responsible Gun Owner.

1:- But Its A GUN Bob

No matter what side of the guns or no guns divide you come from, the inescapable fact is that a gun is a gun, and a gun has only one purpose. It is to kill whatever you point it at and pull the trigger. It is a weapon with one purpose, and one purpose only. To Kill.

In that regard it is different to an axe or a knife. Either of those can be used for other tasks they are intrinsically designed for...chopping wood, cutting paper, etc. Not true for a gun though is it?

Yes you can have guns, like target pistols, that are designed mainly to shoot at paper targets. Yes you can use a rifle to prop a door open, or a Glock as a paper weight, but now we are just getting silly.

Look, guns are for killing things. Face it and fess up.

SO..... pray tell what sort of reasonable or sane definition of the word responsible applies to having a weapon whose sole purpose is to kill in your home, your car, or strapped to your belt?

Still not convinced? Try this mental exercise then.

Nuclear Power Stations are run in extremely responsible manners (the odd 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl aside). So are biochemical research laboratories, and especially biochemical weapons research labs. But we don't build any of those in our cities and suburbs do we? Why? Just in case it goes titsy and things get dangerous.

Now lets say Im a highly trained, highly proficient, and highly safety conscious researcher into biological weapons. I spent a mint building a highly secure and hermetically sealed laboratory in my basement, where following all recognized US rules and regulations on working with Anthrax I do my research thing and start developing Anthrax. I have the FBI, the CDC and every other govt department round to carry out checks on a weekly basis and keep an eye on me and my work. Hell, I will even be open and tell all my neighbors in the suburb I live in what I do. I've been as responsible as responsible can be.

Would you want to live next door to Dr Sandman's Anthrax Lab?

Or Dr Sandman's Basement Nuclear Research Lab?

Funny see, cos to do that Id have to jump through lots more hoops and follow many many more rules and regs than what it takes to be an apparently "responsible gun owner". And compared to weaponizing either that Anthrax or pile of fissile material Dr Sandman is developing, weaponizing that gun in the safe in the next house along that belongs to Mr Responsible Gun Owner is lot more easy. The same level of difference between Dr Sandman launching a Saturn V rocket and Mr Responsible Gun Owner starting his car IMHO.  

So explain to me again what exactly is responsible about having a weapon in your home that even a sub teenage kid can work to deadly effect?

2:- And you are still a HUMAN Bob

Now I know this upsets some of my American cousins, especially those of the less scientifically literate bent, but if you think you are anything more than a smart ape who has learned highly developed motor and language skills then you my chum are sadly delusional. We are Humans, one and all. The descendents of ape like hominids, and inheritors of all that comes with it, including old hangovers that stay in the ape parts of our brains and bodies....the old timey stuff like fight or flight reactions and your arm hair standing up when you feel cold. Watch a couple of chimpanzees or baboons snarling and having a face off, then watch a pre-punch up shoving match and stand off in the bar. See any difference? Really?

Now, as I pointed out to Bob, the adage said by the Joker in one of the Nolan Batman films is sadly true, and sadly indisputable:

Sanity is like Gravity. All it takes is one small push and wheeeeeeeeeee

I have had a pretty good life, and have been lucky to have spent a lot of it wandering blissfully through this mad rich tapestry we call our world. Along the way I met and know some of the strongest willed and good hearted people on the planet - Im lucky to call some of them my mates. I myself have, on occasion, been complimented on stuff like what a nice guy I am, what a good character I have, how trustworthy and reliable I am. I could say the same for a lot of my mates, and some of the people I have known and worked with.


I have also seen such strong and good men and women brought down by things they could not control and deal with. Sometimes its been a gradual sleet of small things, sometimes a mixed bag of small and big things, and sometimes all it took was one big kick square in the metaphorical nuts. And down they went. And sometimes, when that happened, they flipped and the good person became bad. Sometimes just a bit nusto, sometimes full on scary mary nutso. And sometimes they never got back up. Happened to me as well....I managed to get back up on the horse and ride into the sunset whistling, but while I was down I was mean and dangerous. I could flip out and lash out at small things.

And if you say that could never be you, I will happily brand you a liar.

Fear and hate, loss and grief are terrible, corrosive and insidious things. They turn saints into sinners, and sinners into Satan. And sometimes my mateys they can do it faster than I turn a pint of lager into a puddle of piss.

So, as I suggested to Bob, you can be as responsible a gun owner as you like. You can store the guns in a gun safe complete with trigger locks. You can stash the ammo in a completely separate safe. That is what my shotgun owning mate back home in the UK has to do with his gun and ammo.

I suggest you are also one small push from the wheeeeee point, and one small step from turning the gun on yourself and/or others. The trigger lock and gun lockers both have keys you have easy access to, and the safe has a combination. Those guns are one easy lock step away from You In Satan Mode.

And if you say that could never be you, I will happily brand you a liar.

3:- So what's your point Sandy, Old Bean?

The point is this my US chums, drowning in a sea of guns in which swims a good number of arguably crazy and dangerous individuals like Shitty Pants Nugent.

There is NO such thing as a "Responsible Gun Owner".

There are Careful Gun Owners.
There are Considerate Gun Owners
There are Reasonable Gun Owners.

But each an every one of them is a risk to you, to your family, to your friends, and to society at large.

Because each and every gun owner is just one small push away from wheeeeeeeeee!

A gun is to kill, nothing else, and there is NOTHING responsible about owning a gun.

So lets all stop putting the lipstick on the pig, playing make believe, and using that stupid oxymoron Responsible Gun Owner.

Do that, and you may get one small step closer to a safer tomorrow.


All that said and done Im sad to say my friends that this is never going to be the US equivalent of the UKs Hungerford or Dunblane moments. Wiki either of those place names and add the word "massacre". See what we did when a lunatic went kill crazy with his legal arms. That my chums is never going to happen in the US, no matter how many dead bodies stack up, and I feel sorry for you all.

Face it my mates, if you are still having the same cack ass arguments that were kicked around in the Scopes Monkey Trial over 80 years ago, and GOP legilsatures are still trying to ram Creationism v3.0 into classrooms, what makes you think that there will be any significant real world progress on gun restriction? Optimism? Admirable, I will give you that.

But today's Progressive/Democrat gun law is really just tomorrows or next cycles GOP/NRA/Conservative/Bagger target for repeal isn't it? That assault rifle argument was sorted by Big Dog, let quietly lapse under Gee Didya, and now you are repeating it all over again.

So that is why you so need Bob and all his fellow gun owners just like Bob.

Be Bob's mate. I like Bob. So should you.

Its him, or the asshats like Shitty Pants Nugent and Arm Em All Pratt.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The Living Dead..oxymoron seems appopriate (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sandy on Signal

    these days also..

    "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones."

    "Life without emotions is like an engine without fuel."

    by roseeriter on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 02:44:56 AM PST

    •  i get that this is a passionate issue (9+ / 0-)

      but why in dog's name would you rec a diary that says this:

      There are Careful Gun Owners.
      There are Considerate Gun Owners
      There are Reasonable Gun Owners.

      But each an every one of them is a risk to you, to your family, to your friends, and to society at large.

      Because each and every gun owner is just one small push away from wheeeeeeeeee!

      i'm not going to call it hate speech, but it is hateful and every bit as ignorant. and people say it's gun advocates who live in fear?

      Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

      by Cedwyn on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:53:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's almost half of all Americans. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:49:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hate Speech? (0+ / 0-)

        You certainly seem to have a very American command of English my friend.

        It is not hate speech to assert a proposition based on fact. That is statement of fact.

        Several studies have shown that people who live in homes where guns are present are many times more likely to be victims of gun incidents. One recent study pinned that increased likelyhood at 4.5 times more likely.

        It is established fact that even the best of us are simply a few pushes away from "madness" and acting out of normal character under duress. If you disagree then you need to refute the sum total findings of psychology, and medicine, and a mountain of court transcripts to that effect.

        So, whilst I may be saying something YOU disagree with....

        show me where the HATE is?

  •  if functionality is the criteria by which we ban (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster, gerrilea

    items and axes and knives are good because they are multi functional while guns are bad because they only exist to kill, I have to ask about how a Naginata style pole ax (hey it is an ax, after all) would fit into this universe?
    Here is some information on the weapon:

    After all there are trigger locks, gun safes and cabinets for guns while a Naginata pole ax is usually a wall-hanger  

    •  Funny you should mention the Nag (3+ / 0-)

      as I know what they are, what they were designed for, and what purpose they had in practice. I have also been trained in how to use one as part of the martial arts I used to practice (in the UK its an extension of Kendo).

      So....first up they are not a pole AXE. They are pole ARMS. A pole AXE is a specific type of pole ARM.

      Second, while I had the wooden bokken equivalent of one in my home, just as I had a wooden bokken two sword variant of the classic sword set, I would never have a real one on my wall as a hangar, just as I didnt have a set of bladed swords. That is sad, and so so cheesy 70s. They should come with a compulsory nylon shirt, flares and a Ron Jeremy mustache.

      The only reason for having a real one would be as a collector style museum piece. Good luck getting a real authentic one out of Japan.

      And of course, nice try at a "Ahhhh but". Note that I said knife and axe. Do you see sword, mace, morning star etc in that list of weapons with more than one purpose? Nope....cos they all have only one as well. Killing. Just like a gun.

      Props mate

      •  so let's define knife and dagger, for example (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        what are the differences?

        As far as pole ax vs pole arm, you will note a wide variance in types of what can be classified as a pole ax

        As far as the decor goes, if you have a display of various types of swords and such, you may have an example of this. But that is not our discussion; what are your feeling regarding for example, a barong vs a butcher knife, since except for the leaf blade they are very similar?

        (BTW again: disclaimer: I have 2 such examples on display. Both are with provenance as to where and when they were obtained by whom and under what circumstances)

        •  Classic deviation technique of the gun lover (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Start pissy little arguments about definitions of what is a or b, in order to divert the discussion from the main point.

          Jeeze this is as boring as it is meaningless as it is childlike.

          Grow the fuck up.

          •  the point was made that guns only kill (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cedwyn, gerrilea, oldpunk, Meteor Blades

            while other items such as knives have other purposes, which is not necessarily true, such as in the case of a kaskara or tulwar.  In these cases, they were made solely as killing weapons so the question is if guns should be banned, should not certain edged weapons be banned and if not, why?

            I guess I could point out a classic technique for gun opponents is to accuse their opposition of obfuscation when the argument is simply extrapolated to its logical limits

          •  As compared with this ridiculous diary, you mean? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            The basic premise herein is that we are all just a nudge away from insanity and murderous behavior. Ten years of martial arts training, including training in knife fighting, means that if I lose my mind somebody had better have removed all the paring knives in the house.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:48:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So Meteor you disagree (0+ / 0-)

              You disagree with the mountain of psych and medical research showing that it doesn't really take much sometimes to cause the human mind to snap. And that when that does happen it is possible the person acts totally out of character, possibly with lethal results?

              Or similar research carried out by the FBI and universities like Harvard?

              And you presumably thus disagree that the defense in both US and UK courts of "temporary insanity" has any standing. One that has been judicially accepted for over 100 years?

              You also seem to disagree with the large segment of the US gun death stats each year - that 30,000 per year across all categories - that involve suicide and murder/suicide....y know like that football player who went batshit and shot his girlfriend then himself.

              Or has your vaunted martial arts training turned you into some sort of mental ubermensch, invulnerable to all outside duress, stress, and influence? Are you asserting that people with martial arts training never go batshit crazy and harm others?

              Simply saying you disagree with the logic chain does not address the assertion. The ball is still with you sir.

          •  Go easy mate (0+ / 0-)

            at least he made a point rather than just chucking a teddy and sniping/throwing abuse


            claiming that the commenter is some form of mental ubermensch who will never, under any circumstances ever, snap and do something out of character

            and anyway - I find the blades discussion interesting.

        •  Awww mate (0+ / 0-)

          come on....fess up.... no katana set I hope. Man they is soooooo cheeze.

          With Japanese weapons I just dont like the repros....unless they are the real deal high end properly forged ones they look sooooo bad.

          Mate a knife is a knife. When back in the UK I go camping with the lads. Now my mate uses a Puma (?) camping knife, another uses a classic small blade bowie style classic woodsmans hunting knife, me I use a bamboo leaf blade kukri (thats the longer bladed variant). One of us usually has a woodsmans axe for the big chopping work....maybe in the US you call them hatchets or ranger style tomahawks, not the big sodding lumberjack things.

          Having wall displays is just a matter of taste bro. I have mates back home who are serious sword nuts (western weapons) and have largeish collections. Not my thing but some of their stuff is top quality or the real deal. I just dont like it.

          Barongs to me are like the Malay weapons just across the border from me.....look sort of odd and unweildy, but Im sure in a trained hand are just as comfortable as my kukri is to me. I guess if I tried cutting with one youd need the red cross box handy.

          For home defence may I recommend a foot and a half of mahogany truncheon? In the close confines of my darkened home, full of corners and doorways, when Im the one on familiar ground Id happily face down a gun wielding burglar any day.

          Me and several thousand British bobbies agree on that.

          •  mine have provenance for being WWII captures (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            if that is a concern; that is a good reason for avoiding Ebay and such sites and going through reputable auction houses.

            Now for home defense I do have a re-purposed ewisa which I use for a cane but I fear I am not robust enough after a few CVAs to mount a credible threat.  I do have a couple of seme on the wall and a couple of machetes out in the truck, if there is a difference between them.  However if we are discussing home defense, a firearm is the most credible solution for me, if in a given situation, I am unable to retreat. (and I do have a "safe" room)

            I believe I do prefer the barong to the kukri but that is an artistic judgement as I prefer a "primitive" aesthetic as opposed to a more finished look as provided by the kukri I do own.  I believe we can agree on the importance of repros vs originals which is why provenance is so important and why ex museum pieces are worth a premium (which is also true for some other items I have an interest in)

          •  I forgot to note that with Japanese WWII swords (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            you have the classical Samurai swords and the formal dress swords which are more European in appearance.  The other problem is that swords made towards the end of the war are not of the same quality as those made in the late 1930's and those mass produced for the military does not measure up to those which were heirlooms and date back to the earlier periods
            Sites such as this can be of assistance:

            •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

              Is the war trophy a standard mass produced officers "katana", a post Meji Restoration proper folded steel blade, a post Meji western style sabre dress sword, or a full on antique blade with a provenance mark on its tang? A family sword carried into battle by a name samurai family?

              The latter would, to me, be a real treasure to find.

              •  I agree and we could have an interesting (0+ / 0-)

                conversation over a pint sometime.  The swords I can afford, which are $200-$500 are the mass produced.  An heirloom starts at about $1000 and goes to $5000 though one, such as one from a Japanese admiral on auction lately, went for $20,000.  

                Here are some auctions if you are interested, with the hammer price

  •  HR: (5+ / 0-)
    But each an every one of them is a risk to you, to your family, to your friends, and to society at large.
    Personal attack. On me. Personally.

    OK, no HR. But GFY.

    •  Cant Dispute the Logic though (4+ / 0-)

      can you?


      From your mwaaaaah response Id also suggest you are on that sliding risk scale somewhere well below Bob.

      •  You obviously don't want a conversation (9+ / 0-)

        or at least not with gunowners. So this will be my only post here

        if this is your premise:

        Oxymoronic Phrases 101: The Responsible Gun Owner,
        Its not worth bothering to talk to you. see you at the polls, if you vote in America.

        I thought that Sandy Hook was a horrible tragedy but I didn't think it made me bad or irresponsible. I can see there's plenty here who think it did.

        opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one

        Happy just to be alive

        by exlrrp on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:31:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wrong (4+ / 0-)

          I enjoy conversation and debate.

 me how Kestrel9000 taking what I wrote as a personal attack on him, then just throwing an insult or two without actually making any counter argument, classes as a conversation or debate.

          Then you can try to make the counter argument that addresses my points:

          1) owning and keeping a gun in the home no matter how well secured is intrinsically dangerous and a risk


          2) You are only human, and are open to having some outside influence beyond your control drive you temporarily nutso


          3) If that should happen then there is a risk you may use the gun to harm yourself or others. Thus you, while stable, are a low risk, when unstable a high risk, but you are ALWAYS a risk.

          QED the term Responsible Gun Owner is pure oxymoronic nonsense.

          I dont think gun owners are intrinsically bad people, or socially maladjusted. But you are all risks....merely risks on a sliding scale of threat to others.

          Over to you....or you can do what Kestrel did, throw your teddy bear, and run away.

          •  OK one more (5+ / 0-)

            The opinion holds---you don't want to converse with gunowners you want to yammer at them.
            Come on Teddykins, lets go somewhere nice

            Happy just to be alive

            by exlrrp on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:00:26 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You can read back and see LOTS (11+ / 0-)

            of comments where I support more and stronger gun restrictions and that I am sympathetic to people who want to go farther than I am comfortable.  In fact, just prior to Sandy Hook, I was roundly dogpiled by the RKBA guys on here because of restrictions I support.  

            However, this diary and your comments afterward are far beyond reasonable.  It IS possible to be a gun owner and still support measures to make us safer.  I agree that too many gun owners reflexively oppose anything sensible, but NOT all of us.  

            I AM a responsible gun owner.  Unless you break into my home, neither I nor my firearms will ever be a danger to you or anyone else.  Period.  

            Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

            by Mark Mywurtz on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:18:10 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well said n/t. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kestrel9000, cazcee

              Speak softly and carry a big can of tuna.

              by Cat Whisperer on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:44:43 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Could you tell us again what you "restrictions" (9+ / 0-)

              entailed? I'm one of those RKBA members and I don't recall any constructive suggestions recently.

              By the diarists definitions, no gun owner can be responsible because they are gun owners.  Hows this constructive?

              And how can you not take offense to it? It's clear to me, a non-gun owner, that it's meant to be exactly that, offense.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:04:01 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Just look at the pictures (4+ / 0-)

                Look at Dave's picture, then look at mine on my profile.
                I think Dave judges us all by his own self.
                I invite anyone to look:
                Who looks more reasonable?
                Who would you rather sit down and have a cup of coffee with and talk to?
                Who would you rather see carrying a gun?

                Tell you what, Dave, if you ever want to have a serious conversation with anyone, better change your picture.


                Happy just to be alive

                by exlrrp on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:29:18 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Every picture tells a story, story (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  claude, kestrel9000, oldpunk, gerrilea

                  been sitting here thinking about icon pictures....why people put on what they do.
                  My my my, there sure are different types.
                  I chose the picture I did because I wanted to appear to be someone people would want to talk to, like you were walking down Rue Haussman (where it was taken) and coming across this charming, sophisticated handsome stranger, would feel welcome to sit right down, have an espresso and talk.

                  And you.............................

                  I figure icon pictures are like a first impression of where the head's at and I don't know when I've seen such a striking difference between two old fogies, a really different life view. A complefely different way to present onself, to make a first impression, to invite others to talk.
                  Amazing, just amazing, and sad.

                  Don't ever judge me for responsiblity nor lecture me how to get along in the world, you lose the argument as soon as someone looks at that picture.

                  So tell us, audience. Try and close off everything else you know about Dave and me and just look at the pictures.

                  Which one of us looks like he knows how to get along best in the world?
                  Which one looks the most law abiding?
                  Which one looks like the one with the spotless criminal record? (there's one there for sure)
                  Which one looks most  like he knows all the local deputies from being a volunteer fireman, not from being arrested?
                  Which one looks like he may have run a successfull contracting business, never sued once, for a quarter of a century?
                  Which one looks like he was a city commissioner in Chico in the 80s??(Architectural Review Board)
                  Who would you rather have your kids spend time with?

                  Who do you think has the better concept of "responsibility?"
                  (thanking you in advance)

                  So there you are Dave, we'll just let the audience decide.
                  A word to the wise, no I mean Helpful hint: lose the picture if you want to lecture people on responsibility

                  Ciao again.
                   I'm just here to pick up my teddy bear

                  Happy just to be alive

                  by exlrrp on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 07:32:54 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Looking for your TU thingie (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kestrel9000, gerrilea

                    Not seeing it

                    Happy just to be alive

                    by exlrrp on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 07:42:23 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  FATHER JACK (0+ / 0-)

                    That my pedigree chums is an icon picture of FATHER JACK HACKETT, a character from the hit comedy series FATHER TED.

                    Given my predilection for using the Common Vernacular as a form of punctuation, my Catholic upbringing and education, and utter disrespect for all things religious its a highly appropriate icon to adopt.

                    You need to be familiar with the series to get the joke.

                    By the way - have any of you ever heard the phrase: Don't judge a book by its cover?

              •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

                Your reply suggests that I agree with Dave the Sandman's characterization that no gun owner can be responsible.  I thought I was pretty clear that I disagreed with his diary.  

                Maybe by "far beyond reasonable" you thought I meant "very reasonable", though I actually meant "very unreasonable"?  I guess I see how that mistake could happen.  

                Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

                by Mark Mywurtz on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:04:02 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Until your home catches fire when you are away (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Then the ammunition that you have in the house becomes a significant danger to your neighbors and the responding firefighters...

              I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

              by Wayward Wind on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:05:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  No. You exclude the possibility that someone (0+ / 0-)

              else might break into your home, grab your guns and come after me with them.

              That's where I think the diarist slips up--saying that there can be no such thing as a "responsible gun owner" because the gun owner him/herself may go wheeeeeeee.....

              The reason I personally believe that there is no such thing as a "responsible gun owner" is that you cannot, no matter what you do, you cannot give any of us absolute 100% assurance that someone else (your child, your second-cousin twice removed, an intruder) will not get their hands on your guns and use them to shoot US.

              Sure, there are enough gun owners who support regulation and support "common sense" measures to stem the tide of gun violence in this country.

              But to me that does not make them "responsible". IMO, in this day and age, it is IRRESPONSIBLE to own guns, period. Because there are some things--too many of them--that are simply out of your control. Sure, there are reasonable, considerate, sane gun owners. But responsible? Not in my view.

              •  Well, I see your point (0+ / 0-)

                but I have to say that 1) my guns would be pretty undesirable for a perpetrator to steal to shoot you as there is a lot higher firepower available out there, 2) the perpetrator would have to find a way remove locks form all of my guns, so it wouldn't be an impulse thing, and 3) it's amazing that if I own a firearm that is no more powerful than I need for hunting, follow all laws and usual safety practices, and lock them up that you would blame ME and call ME irresponsible in the unlikely event that someone were to break into my house and use them in a crime.  

                I will assume from your last paragraph that you are categorically opposed to hunting because guns are involved.  

                Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

                by Mark Mywurtz on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:22:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  This. n/t (0+ / 0-)

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:52:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  They never will, absolute rights under their 27 (0+ / 0-)

        Word Constitution (sans the "well regulated" part) is all they stand for, just like the NRA.  To hell with the rights of people to live without fear that all these loose guns that shoot way more bullets than they did even 20 years ago will end their lives any minute at the supermarket, mall, church, mall or even a freaking grade school; their 27 WC is absolute and trumps any right.

        Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

        by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:00:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •   Dispute the Logic (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishbone, kestrel9000

        The irony here, is the fabled

        Curse of the Do-Gooder
        Demonizing ones opponents
        In today's political climate
        Destroying any & all Chance to claim a majority in the house of reps 2014

        Kenyan Socialism today Kenyan Socialism tomorrow Kenyan Socialism forever May his reign last 1,000 years

        by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 08:34:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  An English Lesson (4+ / 0-)

      A PERSONAL attack is when I say "Kestrel9000 you are an idiot". I attack the PERSON. See?

      A GENERIC attack is when I say that all gun owners are potential risks. Of course that then opens the debate as to whether it is an attack or a truth/fact.

      You can choose to address either, the response being reliant on the offense. You address neither

      Still.... I expect you think you are a RESPONSIBLE gun owner as well.

      Gimme Bob any day.

    •  kes, I HR'd it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and you know how often I agree with you.

      don't always believe what you think

      by claude on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:08:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well..Dave, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Thanks for weighing in and giving us the benefit of your analysis.  I guess we could say much the same about long sharp teeth, sling-shots, swords, bows and arrows, and  catapults.   It's an evolutionary thing.   And, darn it, if we  could've just kept those things out of society we'd be way better off.   Thing is, if that was the case, we'd also be back to the times when size really mattered if one planned to survive....cause back then when a big hairy nut job decided he wanted something you had, or just wanted to be mean, it was pretty much all over if you were 5'4" and weighed 120 lbs.  

    Maybe things are a bit more complex than you're willing to consider.  Maybe if we lived in a perfect world where everyone was sane and kind and responsible and thoughtful of others we wouldn't have to deal with these matters.  We could all agree that since we all live by the golden rule, no one needs to be able to protect themselves.  

    When that happens, all this stuff about guns and all the other controversies of the day will go away.  In the meantime, well, it's just not that simple.   Now, back to our regular programming on whether or not we'll fund more cruise missles OR take care of the poor, elderly and infirm...  


    The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

    by Persiflage on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:28:00 AM PST

  •  THere are responsible gun owners, and the ones (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I know have no problem with sensible gun regulations:

    1. Federal laws, no more state laws
    2. An assault weapons ban with teeth that addresses all the weapons that can fire dozens of bullets in very few seconds (or the cheap conversion kits to make ones that are not shoot that fast anyway)
    3. Licensing and training
    4. Registration of all firearms

    I have yet to meet a responsible gun owner that is against any of the above, but there are plenty of apologists that are complicit in the daily carnage by aiding and abetting the NRA's absolutist position.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:10:51 AM PST

    •  I agree. I despise the NRA........... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and the right-wing nuts who believe they have an absolute right to own any form of firearm manufactured with no restrictions whatsoever.

      I have been a shooter all my life.  I own a gun that is in no way a "self-defense" weapon. It is a small caliber, long barrel target pistol.

      I am willing to register said gun, have it and my trigger lock inspected, take training, pass tests, and pay for liability insurance. If it some point the cost of owning the gun outweighs my desire to shoot occasionally; I will get rid of the gun.

      If you think I am irresponsible; that is your problem, not mine.

      The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

      by cazcee on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:02:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  By all accounts Nancy Lanza was a VERY responsible (0+ / 0-)

    gun owner; until she was not.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:29:15 AM PST

  •  Please... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cazcee, Noddy, happy camper

    Millions of gun owners are safe and careful and law abiding and yes responsible.

    "Because each and every gun owner is just one small push away from wheeeeeeeeee!"
    Get a grip.
  •  Here come the personal attacks on me screen name (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    by the apologists among us that are complicit in the carnage.

    Show me where it says that any regulations are forbidden to the 2A rights?  If anything, two words stick out in the 2A: "WELL REGULATED."

    So don't come telling me that my screen name is "ironic" or any of the insults you guys use when you cannot discuss reasonable regulations and need to resort to personal attacks.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:04:07 AM PST

    •  "Complicit"... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rockhound, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

      Yeah, you want a reasonable discussion. Not.

      "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

      by happy camper on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 07:17:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Language changes. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rockhound, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

      Every historian agrees that "regulated" meant something different in the latter half of the 18th century than it does today.

      There have been many arguments on this site stemming from a basic misunderstanding (willful? difficult to say) of the meaning of the phrase "well-regulated".

      It meant:

      It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected.
      It did not mean "subject to regulations".

      Please note that I am not arguing either for or against gun control. I'm simply pointing out that your use of the phrase "well-regulated" is completely incorrect.

    •  Actually DOC (0+ / 0-)

      the words are well regulated MILITIA

      contextually they were written in a time before a real standing army, a civilian police force, etc.

      I would propose that the phrase well regulated militia is now constituted by your Military, your National Guard, and your Police/FBI law enforcers.

      And I also think that Defending Your Constitution is not just damn necessary, its the sodding duty of all Americans, and all who stand with me.

      It is after all the first fully secular and democratic one to have been made. And those words and phrases, even drafted and set as they are in 18C legalese, still resonate with a bloke who grew up with an abiding love of the English language and poetry.

      Be proud mate. I get a tear in my eye when I read the Declaration of Arbroath....your own Declaration's great great grandfather.

  •  I think that word does not mean (3+ / 0-)

    what you think it means.

    Responsible, according to the Merriam Webster dictionary, means liable to be called on to answer, liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties, able to answer for one's conduct and obligations. The Free Dictionary online adds:  able to be trusted or depended upon, based on or characterized by good judgement or sound thinking, being a source or cause.

    By these definitions, I know a great many responsible gun owners. Actually, by those definitions, every single person I know who owns guns is a responsible gun owner.

    Even my ex and his BFF - they are pains-in-the-butt, angry Republican jerks, but they are also responsible gun owners. Much as I hate them, I have to admit they are responsible with their guns. I won't vouch for their friends, whom I don't know, but those two fit the description of "responsible gun owner".

    My gun-owning friends and family members are mostly hunters, competition shooters, law enforcement, and military, but each and every one is a responsible gun owner.

    Maybe you really mean some other word, but "responsible" is not the right one.

    All knowledge is worth having. Check out OctopodiCon to support steampunk learning and fun. Also, on DKos, check out the Itzl Alert Network.

    by Noddy on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 07:09:18 AM PST

    •  By that definition, responsible gun owners (0+ / 0-)

      would have to take full legal (including financial) responsibility to any injury/damage/death caused by the weapon registered to their name. No matter what the circumstance.

      But, gee, I did everything right: I locked up the guns, they weren't accessible to ANYONE, really, they weren't, I don't know how this happened.

      How many times do we have to hear the shit until we cave to the notion that there are some things that are beyond our control?

  •  No Dave, it's just not true that guns (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ahianne, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

    have one purpose and one purpose only. Shooting is a sport. Have you ever thrown darts, or shot a bow and arrow ? It's fun to hit a target.

    The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

    by Azazello on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 07:51:14 AM PST

  •  fuck off. (0+ / 0-)

    that's a personal insult you just tossed off there.

    Speak of your own life on the edge of sanity,  and don't presume to know where my edge is.

    don't always believe what you think

    by claude on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:03:03 AM PST

  •  Why do people (0+ / 0-)

    keep making diaries like this? I think it's been established that even here the kind of opinion you stating is in the vast minority. And, truthfully it's not going to help convince anyone for new and improved gun-control laws.

    "The government of the many, not the government of the money" - Nancy Pelosi

    by Americantrueandblue on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:48:19 AM PST

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