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I have always hoped that we can help build DK into a community where mutual interests do not poison relationships. I started this group and invited folks so that we can avoid the firearms policy discussions that have turned other groups into scapegoats and pariahs. We have mutual interests and we are interested in bringing better Democrats into public service. I hope we can operate in a respectful and friendly way and in a collective setting. For those who are not interested in the shooting sports, there are other places to violate DKs community rules if that's what makes you happy. But that's it for any sense of "rulemaking", and I'm sure we can discuss the evolution of the group as we proceed further.

It's not "my" group in any sense of the word and am hoping leadership will operate collectively. In the comments I can talk about my interests if you wish to share the same. While I have a position on the Second Amendment I don't expect to talk about it here since there are other places to do that. Until my recent bout with underemployment, I was a casual competitive target shooter who hoped to achieve a ISSF world record in my age class before I pass on. I have other activities in which I am interested, none of which I consider a hobby. I know that there are national organizations that could serve as models for our kinds of conversation but they are few and far between and certainly not the current focus of public concern. There are enough of us in DK to have interesting conversations that do not necessitate the unproductive discourse we've seen this past week and I hope this or some place like it can exist in DK.

Originally posted to Liberal G Club on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 05:35 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (23+ / 0-)

    yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

    by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 05:33:35 PM PST

  •  sport, survival or protection (8+ / 0-)

    I will be interested to see how this group develops, annieli. Where I live I believe there are many, many liberal gun owners but that they're quieter than most people of other political bents about it. I must admit it irks me that public perception so often assumes a liberal would not be armed or willing to protect their homes. To be underestimated or misunderstood is sometimes an advantage but perhaps not in this case and I do wonder about that.

    If I understand you correctly though, I think you're envisioning a group of sportsman/woman for this group. Could you clarify that a little bit for me?

    •  yes, less politics, more sports (7+ / 0-)

      often in RKBA, there were good discussions and advice for folks getting started, others who hunted, technical banter, etc. It always got into pie territory on policy matters. It's clear some things can't be avoided, as in terms of discussing CCW but it was in the organizing statement of RKBA that there was a connection between gun control and electoral politics. I have no such interest here

      yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

      by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:21:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  OK (9+ / 0-)

    Let us see how it goes.

    I am tired of:
    1. Being branded a pariah
    2. Attacked
    3. Being told what to do.

    I try very hard to treat others with civility. Most of the time, I say nothing at all.

    Where I came from the saying went like this:

    If you have nothing good to say, then perhaps it is better to just say nothing at all.
    From what I can see, the invective and pie fights are just as bad here as any right-wing gun blog ... only with a different coat of paint.

    I do participate at those 'other' blogs.

    I am an avid target shooter and reloader.

    No more gooper LITE!

    by krwada on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:33:28 PM PST

    •  they do seem that way (7+ / 0-)

      some folks do simply push back in one dimension.

      I used to shoot BR regularly and may return to that activity once the economic situation improves.

      BTW, at matches, I say very little in the pits because pretty much everyone else is the stereotype of conservative gun bloggers and for me it's competing and getting better that's important

      yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

      by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:40:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Shooting sports (8+ / 0-)

        So ... are you a reloader? I asked this question over at RKBA and got very little response. I can assume you do reload your own ammo. It gets very expensive very fast if you compete.

        Most competitors are reloaders.

        I can say this about politics. I pretty much feel out of place where-ever I go. I am a life long Democrat, and I will remain a Democrat. I do enjoy the outdoors, shooting, fishing and all that other stuff.

        Given my conservative background, I feel out of place at places like dKos. Given the fact that I like to stand up for the little guy, I feel out of place at those conservative places.

        I do identify more with the Democratic Party than any thing else.

        I go to church to. I go once a month and help out with the sound system. There are some very nice Methodist churches here in the SF. Bay Area.

        No more gooper LITE!

        by krwada on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:52:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yes I am there are some good ones in (7+ / 0-)

          RKBA. I am interested in solving load problems with my chrono, but since I shot at a public range, it got expensive to set up for a day's worth of load testing and reloading at the bench

          DK has all kinds of folks, many lurking non-Democrats who actually say reasonable things. OTHO there are many trolls.

          I don't believe that conservatism exists except as a classical version of historical Liberalism, and even then lacks the logical rigor when properly challenged with libertarian values. Then again it's not about labels since I was raised Christian, but now my faith has always been tempered by philosophic diversity.

          yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

          by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:03:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  There are several reloaders in the group (10+ / 0-)

          and even some very good info about it in a couple diaries, and comments.
          I'm not one of them, but I've always wanted to get into it. But I'm either to busy, broke, or both...lol
           I do know that in high competitive shooting, hand loaded is the only way to compete. The loads, the weight have to be down to the tiniest grain.
           Outside of the Liberal Gun Club Forum, and RKBA here, there are very few places for a Democrat to let their hair down. We all tend to be somewhat quiet at other places, but not always...!

          "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

          by meagert on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:07:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  at matches (7+ / 0-)

            there are usually few women and I can count on one hand the times a POC came to a match

            I use digital scales and decent loading tools, although with the passing of my spouse there is some duplicated equipment that I'll be selling soon (yes in an FFL context)

            yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

            by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:11:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sometimes... (8+ / 0-)

            Sometimes it's fun being banned from those other places.  I've been tossed off VGOF twice so far.  :D

            •  got into (5+ / 0-)

              a fight with someone on a list like that because I stated that the USA male 3 gun small bore champion blew his Olympic gold medal shot with a cross fire and that everyone has done it or else they're a liar. One guy took exception and a flame war started. I nearly siad that if he's so good, why wasn't he in the Olympics. Pretty thin skinned in some places.

              yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

              by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:21:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yep. (7+ / 0-)

                On three-gun, first time I heard of it was a few years ago on my last deployment overseas.  A couple of guys I was stationed with compete.  Hard freakin' work, is what I think.

                •  sorry meant (5+ / 0-)

                  3 position, but I suppose 3-gun is the next step for me although my bum knee is going to make it difficult

                  yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

                  by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:39:43 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I'd add (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  krwada

                  that 3-gun does present an interesting problem because it requires an assault rifle for one of the stages

                  speaking of the gun industry:

                  3-Gun Nation launches its Pro Series as the top shooters go heads up in one equipment division. Airing on NBC Sports Network Wednesdays at 1:00 PM and Sundays at 7:30 am

                  yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

                  by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:06:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  ack, posted wrong video, sorry (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    krwada, ancblu, high uintas
                    Story by Bruce Piatt
                    Excerpt From 3-Gun Nation E-Magazine

                    The fact of the matter is, you can get started with guns you already have.  I would bet most of you already have the guns to attend a local 3 gun match.  If they’re not tucked away in your safe, then partner up with a buddy and pool your gear so you both can give 3-gunning a try.  A rifle, pistol and shotgun is all you need. Let’s look at one gun at a time:

                    Rifle

                    A standard iron sighted AR-15, Mini-14, M-1A, etc., is all you need. In fact, I’ve won five SOF World Tactical Championships matches with just that, a 20” A2 configured AR-15.  It started out as a box-stock AR-15. Over the years I slowly added or upgraded it with better triggers, sight blades, free floated fore-end and muzzle compensator but there’s nothing fancy about a winning gun.  

                    Pistol

                    With most 3-gun matches not requiring any special power factor, any 9 mm pistol is all you need. Standard 115- or 125-grain FMJ ammunition is more than sufficient and readily available at any gun store. Whether it be any one of the plastic frame striker-fired pistols on the market or a single stack 1911, if you have it, find a holster and join the fun. Naturally, if you have a hi-cap USPSA Limited gun, you’re ahead of the game, but don’t be afraid to jump in with whatever you have.  

                    Shotgun

                    Time and time again I hear people complain that they can’t afford a tricked out shotgun that’s needed in 3-gun. I’ve been in this game for a long time. Up until just recently when Remington Defense gave me a VersaMax, all I used to win five SOF World Championships and two USPSA National 3-Gun Championships is a Remington 1100 I bought in a pawn shop for $350. That’s right, a pawn shop gun that I stuck a magazine extension on and installed a loading port button extension. Even if you have a pump shotgun you use for hunting, drop a magazine extension on and hit the range.

                    While 3-gunning may look complex, I’m here to tell you it’s nothing but applying the basics of marksmanship while negotiating the course of fire in the most efficient use of time. Usually the targets are not difficult but the pressure we put on ourselves to “be fast” is what makes things difficult.     


                    yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

                    by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:13:21 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  3-gun (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ancblu, annieli, high uintas

                      That 3-gun competition sounds like fun! It also has a lot in common with Cowboy shooting. In Cowboy, you have rifle, pistol and shotgun. The rifle is usually a lever gun. The pistol is some kind of revolver. The shot gun is usually a double bbl break action type coach gun.

                      I have seen Cowboy shooting competitions. I have never participated in one.

                      No more gooper LITE!

                      by krwada on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:08:43 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  if I move to an area with one I may try it (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        krwada, high uintas

                        although it does require new equipment because of the historical aspect

                        yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

                        by annieli on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 12:26:18 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Does anybody know the caliber minimums for (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        krwada

                        Cowboy /SASS?

                        LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                        by BlackSheep1 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 08:10:20 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Cowboy / SASS caliber (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          BlackSheep1

                          Common calibers are:
                          32-40
                          38-55
                          44-40 WCF
                          357
                          357 mag
                          44 mag
                          45 long colt
                          30-30
                          45-70

                          The most common cartridges would be those that can be used for both revolver and lever gun. The top three in the above list will be what is shot in most matches.

                          In the Old West, having ammunition that can be used in both rifle and pistol was of a practical concern because most folks wanted ammo that could be easily carried and used on their person. Plus, pistol ammo generally tends to be much cheaper than rifle ammo.

                          However, I believe the gun that truly won the West to be the humble shot gun. The shot gun, in its versatility is pretty much unrivaled. Plus, shot guns are very economical to own, even by today's standards.

                          Not too many folks would use the 45-70 because of the recoil. It is too difficult to reacquire the sight picture. The SASS shooting is a timed event.

                          No more gooper LITE!

                          by krwada on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:37:02 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks for the Diary ... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    krwada, annieli, high uintas

                    I appreciate having different community pathways to share information, humor, passion, interests and points of connection within the big and tumultuous DK world where progressive politics and policy matter deeply to all of us.

                    On a matter of semantics, I dislike the term "assault weapon" because it is so highly charged for some and of uncertain meaning to others. Although I'll never make any headway on this point, I prefer the term "tactical carbine."

                    Any carbine is simply a short barreled rifle and is most useful in conditions favoring portability, shorter effective range and tight or close quarter engagements -- with an interesting history in the development of arms.  In Alaska, these characteristics make a carbine a very fine field rifle in a wide range of calibers and technical design styles, including both lever action repeaters and semi-automatics with removable magazines.

                    In military applications, these same useful characteristics have also led to the adoption of the tactical carbine as the standard issue battle rifle. In civilian versions, the fully automatic capability is prohibited (with very highly regulated exceptions).  Particularly in the AR-15 models, the tactical carbine is a very popular firearm for sport, self-defense and general interest, and even more so because it is also such an adaptable platform for those who enjoy making various customizing modifications.

                    The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                    by ancblu on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 02:34:32 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  This looks like a good place, annieli. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            krwada

            I hope it goes well for everyone who visits!

            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

            by BlackSheep1 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 08:07:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  I like putting holes in paper, and even more I (10+ / 0-)

    like steel spinning targets and off hand shooting.  There are no ranges around here that have openings for members and public ranges are expensive, short, paper only, etc. I often just go to public land but it's quite a drive.

    I hunt, so I like more realistic shooting than bench rest.

    I started reloading this year with some great advice from Buddha Belly over on RKBA who is way into reloading and all kinds of shooting.

    What I'd really appreciate is some advice on issues technical about guns and shooting. RKBA is more about advocacy and I hate to clog up the threads there with questions.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:12:37 PM PST

    •  thanks for posting. I expect in the future (7+ / 0-)

      to shoot on public lands only because there are so few ranges that don't require NRA membership and with all due respect the safety side of NRA is important for the sport considering how many accidents come from folks who never take any kind of safety course.

      I am happy to contribute, although my spouse was much more learned in gunsmithing related topics

      yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

      by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:17:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What an excellent point about safety education (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        krwada, annieli, high uintas, BlackSheep1

        that is so hard to make these days given the unfortunate progression of the NRA into a wing nut lobbying organization that is driven now by extreme partisan politics and the power of corporate profit.

        Amen to safety training -- whether as introductions or periodic refreshers.  I'd especially like to see it offered on totally voluntary basis in our schools -- as in my day we also had Driver's Ed, Typing, Home Ec, Shop, etc.

        The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

        by ancblu on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 02:45:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm the resident non-gun owner, it looks like. (8+ / 0-)

    I was trained by my Dad (a lifelong NRA member and Safety Instructor) to utilize said tools properly.

    I'm not sure what I can contribute to the group yet. I'm sure I'll find something to do...

    Thank you for the invite and a place to relax a bit.

    ;)

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 08:24:55 PM PST

    •  welcome, (6+ / 0-)

      there are several folks who contributed to RKBA who didn't own a gun, and for many decades I never owned a gun, having shot in college. So much about shooting is logistical, since most of my issues and costs are traveling considerable distance to matches. There are winter league matches that I may try going to and I might even take a camera to share the events here since it's in a moderately scenic area.

      yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

      by annieli on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 08:34:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Me, too (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea, krwada

      no gun, it's been decades since I shot one. mr.u target shoots with friends, tho. Neither one of us are owners. We've thought about it, never seem to have the money and decided if we do it will be in a few yrs when we retire and have the time.

      We can be the cheerleaders, gerrilea!

      "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

      by high uintas on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:37:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've owned my own for less than a year (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    krwada

    but made my living teaching marksmanship and safety for the Air Force in the late 1970s.

    LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

    by BlackSheep1 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 08:28:30 PM PST

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