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I really don't want to write this but I feel it has to be discussed and if someone has addressed this issue I apologize for missing it.

I think that part of the nation's reaction to Sandy Hook must be looked at thru the lens of Missing White Woman Syndrome. Though the victims weren't white women they were basically perceived in the same way by the public -- white, "safe middle class", "innocent" -- hot buttons in our culture for grief and media angst.

Why do I think this matters? Because on any given day in the US an average of more than 10 African Americans are killed by guns. While it is true that roughly the same number of white Americans are killed given that African Americans are outnumbered 6:1 by whites it would be like 65 white Americans getting murdered by guns every day. Year in, year out. And it's been like this for decades.

Think about that. Could you imagine the uproar in this country if two and a half Sandy Hooks occured every single day to white Americans? The most recent numbers I could get from the US Census (2007) show a very disturbing fact. If you're black, and especially if you're a black male you're much more likely to murdered. Look at the homicide rates by race/gender

White male: 5.4 out of 100,000
White female: 1.9 out of 100,000
Black male: 39.7 out of 100,000
Black female: 6.2 out of 100,000

No, that isn't a typo -- 39.7 -- more than 20 times the rate of white females and 7 times the rate of white males.

What drives these horrendous numbers? Poverty, crime, gangs (though less than I suspected. Gang killings amounted to less than 6% of murders in 2008 and 2009). If we worked to reduce poverty and crime in this country (and getting rid of the failed 'War on Drugs' would go a long way to doing that), factors that influence non-white communities far more than white communities we could eliminate a Sandy Hook every day in this country. Just not one that will get reported on every day. And yet in all the discussions we're having I hardly see a mention of poverty in THIS country as a major contribution to the gun deaths in this country. It's offered up constantly as a reason countries with higher gun death rates then the US shouldn't be considered when talking about the situation here. Instead we're fixated on 30 round clips and AR-15 Bushmasters.

Why is that? Can we talk about the real gun death problem in this country while we mourn those 20 dead children in Sandy Hook? Can we do both? Or can we only see the white victims of guns?

Update

I wanted to say something about this before (finally) heading to bed this morning. I get that some people think the best thing to say about this diary is that I'm an asshole. Call me one if you think that will help, I've been called worse by better.

No, I don't want to diminish the tragedy of what happened in Newton. Far from it. What I want to call attention to is the travesty that is going on right under our collective white (and as I implied upturned) noses. Here is a slightly edited comment I made as I decided to wrap up this diary

I didn't expect to change a lot of minds or even open a lot of eyes. As I said, I didn't want to write this diary. Goodness knows I'm not the best at talking about this issue. But it has to be talked about. Hopefully better folks than I will continue the discussion. I can't help looking at the problem numerically and seeing the social impacts. If we stop to think about it on that horrible day in December the death toll from guns in white America quadrupled from about 10 to about 40. To match that same level on an average day in America the black gun death toll would have to fall from 10 to about 7. On any day of the year, on average, the black community in this country suffers the equivalent of a Sandy Hook. And nearly every single day they do so in silence. And I can't choose to ignore that. Not anymore.
To all who took offense with my handling of this subject I do want to say I'm sorry. I'm a piss poor writer on a good day and maybe this wasn't even a good day for me. But I also want you to take a good hard look at why you were so offended by what I wrote. What I'm offended by is I was blissfully unaware of just how horrible the problem of gun violence is to minorities in America. Hopefully I've made at least of few of you aware of it as well. If so I'll call that a good day for my writing.

Originally posted to ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:38 PM PST.

Also republished by White Privilege Working Group, Barriers and Bridges, and Community Spotlight.

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    by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:38:04 PM PST

  •  Oh I was completely aware of the white woman (86+ / 0-)

    missing effect of Sandy Hook.  In a way I welcome it.

    Since whites are still one of the largest groups of people, things don't get accomplished until they(we) feel directly threatened.  Show them(us) cute little white kids getting killed and the sadness/outrage meter goes off the scale because they(we) can't deny that it could be their(our) children.

    When it comes to having a sensible conversation about common sense gun control, you need to appeal to the emotion as much as the intellect and Sandy Hook did this.  

    Sadly, the world will not be the place I would like it to be until everyone can look at any child and think "but for the grace of god, there goes me and mine."

    "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

    by Sychotic1 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:47:46 PM PST

    •  I think it's part missing-white-woman-effect, (13+ / 0-)

      partly the fact that the victims were mostly children, and partly the effect that all died at once.  I think it'd be hard to make an argument that any of those three effects weren't at play here, and I likewise don't think it's fair to pin it all on just one.

      •  Cory Booker nailed this one. Newark has (18+ / 0-)

        murders largely because Newark's criminals get their hands on guns that are bought at 'secondary markets" in other states.

        Those "secondary markets" sell used guns with little to no regulation.

        And I'm not sure that America would have reacted all that differently if 20 small Black kids had been killed at a "PS 666" in Harlem.

        Kids are kids.

        Separating guns from criminals and from adult-onset paranoid schizophrenics are the twin problems we need to reduce our gun-murder problem. And there are so many criminals because of the War on Drugs madness.

        Australians did this in 1996. See here: MP Kelvin Thomson blog.

        If we can get behind copying Australia, item for item, then we can define the NRA-suckers for the BABY KILLERS they are.

        White House petition: Adopt Australia's gun laws which have eliminated 100% of gun massacres since adoption in 1996 with no effect on hunting

        "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

        by bontemps2012 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:18:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Say it the Other Way (8+ / 0-)

          If 20 first graders were killed at any school in the country the reaction would have been about the same.  Doesn't matter if it was rich, poor, black, white, public school, private school.

          It's not that "I'm not sure" if the reaction would be any different.  I am sure that the reaction would have been about the same.  They were so young, and so many, that this particular tragedy was in a class of its own.

          •  it's kids (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bontemps2012, Texknight, MrJersey

            it's the innocents.  In this case it isn't their skin color.

            But the point is the same, hardly anyone pays much attention to poor on poor crime, even when the victims are young.  

            Bob Herbert is one who writes on these forgotten victims, and he is whistling in the wind.  

            One idea would be to give Bob Herbert air time.

            "oh no, not four more years of hope and change?" Karl Christian Rove

            by anna shane on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 05:20:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Different Point (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bontemps2012, lynn47

              I'm not saying the "missing white woman" phenomenon isn't real.  Of course it is.  The tragedies that are "routine" get ignored when they shouldn't.

              It is fair to say that this particular case isn't the time to make that point.  If you jump up at the funeral for little kids and say "but what about the whales", or global warming, or the war, or any other pet cause, you aren't helping your cause.  You're just coming off as a jackass trying to use dead little kids for your benefit.  Your pet cause may be really important, and you may have a really good point, but you're not helping your cause this way.

              •  Then my question is: (0+ / 0-)

                When would be a good time? All the other times these causes are ignored, or drowned out... No time is convenient, so why not now? Since we are talking about gun violence and the murder of innocents then if not now, when?

                "In the battle of existence, Talent is the punch; Tact is the clever footwork. Wilson Mizner -7.25/-5.64

                by mikejay611 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 09:06:39 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not the time, but the connection. (0+ / 0-)

                  You can say "a black kid was shot in Detroit, that's terrible, it shouldn't happen" today, yesterday, or tomorrow.  It's a serious issue and you can talk about it any time.

                  What I thought would backfire is to try and connect that tragedy to the tragedy in Newtown in a way that diminishes the tragedy in Newtown as exaggerated, illegitimate, or otherwise wrong.  Telling people "you're only this upset because they were rich and white" is factually not true and just guaranteed to backfire.

                  It's one thing to say "people should grieve more than they do for the one black kid shot in Detroit".  It is completely different to say "people are grieving too much for the 20 dead kids in Newtown".  

                  •  And I don't think (0+ / 0-)

                    anyone who is indeed concerned about the disparity in attention from the media, etc.  feels this way at all. I certainly don't. A tragedy is a tragedy no matter if one black child or 20 white children are senselessly slaughtered. The point I think is most central, is that they are equally tragic. Now for the sake of argument, would you presume to say the horrible deaths of those 20 beautiful children is more important or significant than the murder of one equally beautiful child from the inner city?

                    "In the battle of existence, Talent is the punch; Tact is the clever footwork. Wilson Mizner -7.25/-5.64

                    by mikejay611 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 01:53:09 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  No, kids are not kids. (0+ / 0-)

          When it comes to little brown kids, America couldn't care less.

          The United States officially murdered about 200 children between 2004 and 2012 in Pakistan and Yemen alone, in the course of its drone based assassination program.

          And apparently, there is no serious mainstream opposition to the drone program (serious meaning substantial numbers of Congress members).

          I think we can safely conclude from that that Americans don't give a shit about killing brown kids.

          ______
          "Und wer nicht tanzen will am Schluss - weiß noch nicht dass er tanzen muss", Rammstein, "Amerika"

          by cris0000 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 09:39:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Americans don't see a single frame (0+ / 0-)

            of war coverage that shows these kids getting killed.

            We had Al Jazeera in New York City for a year or so. On broadcast television. Up around Channel 47, line 3. That and the BBC feeds are now long gone.

            It's ignorance. Astonishing ignorance.

            "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

            by bontemps2012 on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 09:33:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Redemptive violence strikes again. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, Roadbed Guy, cris0000

        It's the Pearl Harbor effect.  We slept in our sinful slumber when the alien Other slaughtered innocent people. (When our side does it, it's called a successful raid.)

        To expiate our guilt, we get to kill every Other in sight.  When they are dead, look for another 'Other' so we can slaughter them to atone for our sins...

        Makes god happy.   s  

        The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage laborers. - The Communist Manifesto

        by nolagrl on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:14:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Complications. (11+ / 0-)

        I'm not here to dispute the major point of this diary, I think it's makes an important point.  But I do note that in this diary's eagerness to embrace the black/white American paradigm, it forsook the best example supporting its case --- the small amount attention the Sikh temple shooting received relative to Aurora and Newton shootings.  It didn't capture the public's imagination at all, because the victims were not white or Christian, and were new Americans.

        When we start to talk about race in the United States, there's a tendency to oversimplify matters.  We speak as though gender has no significance, and as if America consists of blacks and whites whose forbears had been in this country since before the founding.  It's simpler to talk this way, and rhetorically satisfying because it speaks elegantly to how we've all be taught the history of race in America.  All whites are women and all blacks are men.  East Asians are white and Latin@s are black.  South Asians and Middle Easterners are white when we are talking about education and wealth, and black when we are talking about societal discrimination.  We just forget about Native Americans all together.  There's no such thing as a black or white person with a culturally significant ethnicity or nationality.  Rich people are white.  Children are white.  Republicans are white.  And so on.  

        It's all very elegant, but it's also not accurate at all.  If we really want to take on racial issues in America, we've got to be accurate about them, not just rhetorically satisfying.  We can't talk about violence without talking about gender.  The rate of homicide is three times as high among white men as white women. The rate of homicide is nearly six times as high among black men as black women.  We can't talk about violence's perception in America without talking about race -- but it's not a complete conversation unless we bring in gender.  

        Men are more dangerous than women. The stats reflect that, and so does public sentiment.  That is why women are more compelling victims than men, regardless of race -- black women are often lost in the shuffle of the male-focused narrative of the civil rights movement, but they made compelling victims that captured public imagination at key times -- from the Birmingham church girls, to Rosa Parks and Mildred Loving, to that iconic Norman Rockwell image of the little black girl going to an integrated school. (But yes, of course, white women are still more appealing victims than black women, I'm introducing gender as a second factor in public perception, not eliminating race.)

        The solution for this problem, and the killing of people of all races, is likely to be found in dealing with the problem from gendered perspective.  Perhaps because of our country's fraught history with race, and our issues speaking about it frankly and accurately, we've got a much better track record dealing with things from leveling the playing field between genders as between races.  Even if we get the white male homicide rate to match the white female rate, and the black male homicide rate to match the black female rate, that would be immense progress, even if a gap between the races persisted.

        •  You're right... (4+ / 0-)

          I said as much right here

          I think the cultural contexts of black male and white male violence are a little different (as a rule, black men don't do mass shootings of  the Newtown/Aurora, CO type just as white men don't do things like drive-bys).

          But as far as the overall pattern is concerned, you're right...I don't see much of a difference between black men and white men (or Latino men, for that matter).

          •  I'm also wondering (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mamamedusa

            whether the emphasis on Aurora and Sandy Hook stemmed from the number of people who were killed, in comparison to how many people died in the Sikh temple shooting. The body counts were much higher, so I think that may have been part of it. Also, all of the Sikh victims were over 30 (and the majority of them were middle-aged) rather than children and teenagers, in comparison to what happened at Aurora and Sandy Hook—age may have also been a factor. I do agree, though, that the racially motivated tragedy in the Sikh temple may have been emphasised less because of the ethnicity and religion of the people that died.

        •  "amount attention" as measured by media coverage? (0+ / 0-)
          "...amount attention the Sikh temple shooting received..."
          It's a measure, but of what really? Does is represent you? Me? Our culture or degree of public concern? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I think you might be attributing too much (or the wrong kind?) value on media coverage. 24x7 cable news coverage of the missing white woman is not equal to public opinion or values. That's strikes me like saying popular porn equals public sexual values.
          •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

            The mainstream media both shapes public consciousness and is reflective of popular values.  I think it's important to think about popular opinion as measured by the mainstream media. However, my views are certainly not represented by the mainstream media, which is part of why I and most other folks around here come to Daily Kos (which is, in my case at least, a bit closer to how I view the world, although obviously imperfect).

            Thanks for highlighting that typo, by the way.  I really should copy and paste longer posts like this one into word before posting...

    •  Yes, most of the kids were white (10+ / 0-)

      (one was Latina/African American) but my take is that these murders hit the national psyche because they were children and that it would have been the same if more of them were children of more diverse racial backgrounds. And there were 20 of them at once.

      Obama has made it a point to mention gun violence that is killing people of color many times. We are fast becoming a majority minority country -- to the point that my own mixed race children (Pacific Islander/Caucasian) look pretty much like many kids in our city. Perhaps eventually the distinction will be more and more difficult to make.

      The diary doesn't offend me...discussions of race in this country are usually appropriate, but this remark in the diary IS pretty offensive:

      But I also want you to take a good hard look at why you were so offended by what I wrote.
      Talk about "privilege." And entitlement. The insinuation is that if you take offense at singling out race in the reaction to Sandy Hook, it's time to check yourself and your motivations.

      Yuck.

      BagNewsNotes: Visual Politics, Media Image Analysis

      by ksh01 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:04:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Discussing sensible common sense gun control ... (11+ / 0-)

      ... MEANING, in context of Sandy Hook "how can we outlaw ugly guns with  oversized  magazines ?" -- which are, of course, not exactly the problem at least so far as young people of color are concerned.

       THAT's "handguns" and THAT is already off-the-table and outside the scope of  the discussion.  

       Not even Rev. Sharpton makes more than occasional oblique, dog-whistle references to handguns.

      We're already down the distraction rabbit hole talking about how to prevent  Mass Shootings  (hint: we probably can't) ... and how to keep better track of "mentally unstable" people.  

      We're NOT going to make it harder to buy, own, or carry Handtools for Personal Defense -- at least not at the Federal level. AND we're not going to invade the privacy of the American Pistolaro  by keeping centralized records of who buys, or is licensed to carry "Life Preservers".

      Just as ideological constancy required the ACLU to support the right of American Nazis to make a nuisance of themselves Gross Point MI, so the NRA (patriotic though they imagine themselves to be) is bound to support the right of people on Terrorist Watch Lists to buy guns "privately" at gun shows and out of the trunks of parked cars.

      Personally, I'd like to see firearms brought under a regulatory scheme, not unlike what we have for motor vehicles ... license the user, register the hardware, insure the liability.  And I suspect in most States, taking firearm control  away from the county police and giving it to the State Motor Vehicle Bureau would probably produce the most equitable system at the lowest cost to the taxpayer and the gun owner.

      But let's face it:  "Sandy Hook" is simply a timely distraction from "Washington Gridlock"  (for which both parties are equally to blame, donchaknow ?)

      •  The Sandy Hook massacre was so shocking because (4+ / 0-)

        it involved children. There was also the idea that Sandy Hook was such an idealized safe place. (Although apparently it had its share of irresponsible gun nuts.)
           Individual shootings by people who know each other is a whole different ball game.
           The Sandy Hook and Aurora slaughters might still have occurred if the shooters hadn't been able to get their hands on high capacity magazines. But there wouldn't have been as many dead.
           A sensible measure would be to ban the sale, including the resale, of high capacity magazines. Provide incentives for owners of such armament to turn theirs in.
          Close the gun show loopholes.
          Register guns at the point of sale.
          Require gun owners to obtain a firearms license that must be periodically renewed.
          Tax firearms and ammunition and require insurance such that the costs to victims of gun crimes can be fully compensated.

        Measures such as I've suggested would make mass shootings less likely and would minimize casualties when such shootings did occur.
          Whether they would have a significant effect on urban violence is questionable, since the firearms and the violence culture exist there already.

        •  The idealized safe place (7+ / 0-)

          is a construct of white america and the flight to the suburbs.  It's a matter of privilege, class and race.  And again and again I see people talking about "assault rifles" as if the last ban had any significant effect on gun murders.  Banning lead in various things has had more of an effect than that law did.

          The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:53:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  seems to me that it's only (15+ / 0-)

            white Americans who are entitled to that "idealized safe place".

            I would contend that NONE of the African Americans who live in economically disadvantaged communities (i.e., the "ghetto" or "the hood") have ANY safe place. None. They are not safe in school, nor on the street, nor at the mall, nor on their front porch. Nowhere. And it matters not how young or old they are. Matters not whether they "know" the shooters or don't. (Don't know many 2- and 3-year olds who actually "know" any gangbangers!)

            So that's another element of white privilege that enters into the picture here: privileged white (and especially privileged white WEALTHY) Americans are entitled to safety.

            The rest of us are not?

            •  According to NRA-thinking (0+ / 0-)

              the 'hood ought to be the safest place in the world. You know, because guns.

              The idea of a safe place seems to come with a sense of community. I've lived in poor areas where I felt much safer than the "nice" neighborhoods, for the simple reason that I knew my neighbors and happened to share half a block of street with people who had kindness in them.

              I grant that I am a white woman, and that state of existence affords me the privileges of membership in the White Privilege club. Sandy Hook was shocking on many levels, but I think it was less the location variables (middle class, northeast US, small town) than it was the fact that it was little kids. Columbine should have taught us that white, middle class suburbs were no safe place.

              Now, of course, the news coverage angles and such are a different story. I stuck to NPR and print/online rather than TV, but the few news clips I saw made me think there was an element of "how could this happen to nice white folks" mixed in.

              How does the Republican Congress sit down with all the butthurt over taxing the wealthy?

              by athenap on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:30:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not to jump on you, but no, most people in (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ancblu, mamamedusa

                "The Hood" don't have guns, and it's the racist narratives of the news and our society at large that lead you to believe that they do.  Part of the reason more black people don't get concealed carry permits is because they know that it would greatly increase their chance of being killed by the police.  If black males get killed for reaching for their wallet or ID then why in the world would they be safer with an actual gun.

                The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:52:45 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  However well meaning, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT

                  it seems extraordinarily difficult for many to recognize the realities of privilege, class and race and the continuing inequalities that perpetuate them -- not least in our "justice" system.

                  As with the revealing and misplaced emphasis on "assault weapons" rather than handguns as a chimerical "safe haven,"  it is another central and indisputable fact that large urban centers have the lowest per capita gun ownership rates and the highest incidence of firearm related homicides and other violent crime.

                  The most obvious issues of under-privilege in most public discourse on this national crisis are studiously neglected and ignored -- almost universally on the right and by a substantial majority on the left.

                  The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                  by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:46:21 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I would correct you only in that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ancblu

                    I imagine that it's the lowest private gun ownership rates, the police have more than average.

                    The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:57:06 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Per Capita" (0+ / 0-)

                      is simply on average per person - in an individual capacity.

                      It is certainly correct that various sub-population groups, whether urban, suburban or rural, would have different relative ownership rates ... police vs. civilian, older vs. younger, or wealthier vs. poorer, or more educated vs. less ... and so on.

                      The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                      by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:07:44 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  I know this is late but I've been out sick... (0+ / 0-)

                  And I don't think any but the most troubled parts of the most troubled neighborhoods of any city would have a higher concentration of guns per capita (in fact, I'm inclined to think that rural areas have a higher concentration of guns to bodies because of the low population density, but I digress...).

                  But like I said, it's NRA-thinking. Populations with approaching 1:1 gun to human ratio should be the safest, free-est, happiest, liberty-est places in the world, because guns=freedom.

                  And yes, I'm being sarcastic there. I'm encountering a lot of people for whom freedom boils down to the 2nd amendment and all others count for nothing. If that's truly the case, then there's only going to be one free person in the whole world, and that'd be the dude with the most guns. I throw up my hands at such logics.

                  How does the Republican Congress sit down with all the butthurt over taxing the wealthy?

                  by athenap on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 03:23:54 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  This is a big part of it (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                peggy, mamamedusa
                The idea of a safe place seems to come with a sense of community. I've lived in poor areas where I felt much safer than the "nice" neighborhoods, for the simple reason that I knew my neighbors and happened to share half a block of street with people who had kindness in them.
                This is also why I prefer the term 'Hood over ghetto. To me, the hood is about who my neighbors are.

                Most activists and scholars I know or have read, along with just about everyone who remembers the "good old days", agree that the collapse of the sense of community is one result of the various wars waged against Black and especially poor Black people--the war on drugs, war on poverty (which drugs and poverty obviously won), urban "renewal", redlining, mandatory sentencing laws, the rise of the prison industrial complex, the broadening of the primary school to prison pipeline, etc.

                And of course, this collapse of community is a huge factor influencing what's going on in urban black-and-brown areas.
                We need to understand that the black community didn't just collapse on its own--policies, attitudes, on the part of the government and its people--put so much pressure on it and in so many different forms, I challenge any community anywhere in the world to come out intact.

                Takes a village? Yeah, well, wasn't there also something about destroying the village to save the man? (wink wink) Oh wait. Mixing massacres here. But still. My point is that once the village has been destroyed, it's probably going to take a nation to raise the child.

                •  This was the only reason (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mamamedusa

                  I voted for legalizing marijuana.  I don't smoke anything and don't want to be around it.  I don't particularly understand why people want to do it.  That said, getting rid of laws that are only used to target certain people is desirable.

                   

          •  The reason: Everybody was allowed to keep... (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, ksh01, Renee, Triscula, mamamedusa

            ...their black rifles if they already had them and every high-capacity magazine in inventory that was made before the ban could still be sold retail. And there were hundreds of millions of these mags.

            The only way an assault-rifle ban will work is combined with a buy-back program with a deadline and grace period. High-capacity mags will far be harder to get rid of, but one thing that can be done is immediately ban sales of all of them, including private transfers. While I am optimistic about licensing and better background checks and bans on internet sales, I don't think we're likely to get a workable ban on black rifles and high-count mags, just an unworkable one.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:39:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oversimplify much? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Plu

            'Cause, ya know, no people of color live in single family homes with backyards and swimming pools and BBQs and shit.

            The problem with ad hoc discussions of complex issues like the intersection of race, economics, and gun violence is the lack of historical context and complexity.

            What I see many times with discussion of "privilege" (white, male, hetero, abled, etc.) is the old "when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". Too many of these discussions involve flogging it with a blunt instrument rather than consideration of complex, layered, nuanced causes and effects.  

            (That sound you are hearing is a paradigm being shifted at Warp Factor Infinity using no clutch.)

            by homogenius on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:45:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, in a one paragraph comment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mamamedusa

              I simplified things.

              What I see many times with discussion of "privilege" (white, male, hetero, abled, etc.) is the old "when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". Too many of these discussions involve flogging it with a blunt instrument rather than consideration of complex, layered, nuanced causes and effects.
              There's a hell of a lot of intersectionality in these issues of course, but what's your solution?  Not talk about the problems with race and violence and our reaction as a society to those things?  Or to just talk about guns?  This accusation rings hollow to me because the idea of privilege exists because of the complex nature of the problems, not at all as a blunt instrument.  If you see the concept as blunt then I'd say you misunderstand what it is as a concept.
              'Cause, ya know, no people of color live in single family homes with backyards and swimming pools and BBQs and shit.
              Of course they do.  I grew up with plenty of people of color who lived like that.  I even went swimming at their house sometimes because I didn't have a swimming pool.  That doesn't change the facts about suburbs being the creation of white flight from the cities.  Nor does it change the fact that we never hear about the "it can't happen here" mindset when it's people of color targeted by this sort of violence.  The Sikh temple that was targeted was in the suburbs, from what I could tell, and I didn't see anyone going on about not believing it could happen there except for the people involved.  Because, as some above you have pointed out, that sort of safety and exclusiveness is largely a white, well off thing.  Sure, not exclusively, but mostly.

              The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:54:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I don't get this: (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, old possum
          Individual shootings by people who know each other is a whole different ball game.
          Most of these mass shootings involved people who "knew each other"--small towns where "everybody knew everybody".
          •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

            Everyone in Aurora CO (pop. 328,075) "knew each other"? Everyone at Virginia Tech "knew each other"? Everyone at that shopping center in Tucson "knew each other"? Actually, I can't think of any such shootings that have occurred in a genuine "small town."

            "Individual shootings by people who know each other"=spouses, immediate family, close friends, business partners, not random people who happen to be in a particular place.

            "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

            by Alice in Florida on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:31:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Certainly not in Aurora (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              grumpelstillchen

              But in most other places these things have happened the victims knew the perpetrator.  In the mall in Oregon they definitely did.  Ditto at columbine.

              The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:55:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Banning high capacity magazines ... (0+ / 0-)

          I think THAT ship has sailed eight years ago.  The 1994 law expired in 2004 and since then every mail order hunters' supply company on the internet has been selling the damn things.  

          (And for that matter, a couple of years ago the ATF approved a tricky aftermarket stock for the AR that effectively converts the weapon to an awkward approximation of full-auto fire.)

          Because of the quaint and curious ways the Government protects the privacy and trade secrets of the civilian arms industry there IS NO accurate tally of how many "Modern Sporting Rifles" (AR-15 and AK47 ook-alikes/shoot alikes) are in private hands.  Estimates run from 350,000 to twenty million.

          Whatever --the "AR-15" with it's accessories and modifications is probably THE MOST POPULAR long gun sold in the US.

          So ... without a central data base of weapons and owners,  continuously updated by the registration of every "casual sale" in a centralized, accessible data base, I'd guess "anyone who wants one will be able to get one"

          Now, as long as they keep it hidden at home along side their home  pot and porn stashes -- so what and no harm done.

          And when they DON'T ... well, then it's plenty much too late, isn't it ?

        •  I think it shocked us so much (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Plu

          for a hundred different reasons, some of which are that this town was "white" and "middle-class." Homogeneity does make for a more stable local ecosystem in some respects--if everyone looks like/acts like/thinks like everyone else, you have less disagreement overall.

          It shocked us so much because, at the heart of our culture, there is still such an unconscious desire to look for sense in senseless acts, that we are inclined to entertain thoughts--no matter how brief or illogical, or how much we recognize them as illogical--that somehow the violence is merited or karmic retribution. It doesn't make sense to us when innocent people become victims because those people were doing everything "right." And of course, it doesn't help that a lot of our cultural cues in storytelling, religion, and social behavior are cause-effect based. Sandy Hook knocked us all on our asses because there's no way a 7 year old could have racked up that much bad karma, no way a 6 year old could have "been involved with bad people," no way that whole aura of "personal responsibility" that some will write off crime victims with (if he only had a gun...) can be hung around the necks of little kids.

          How does the Republican Congress sit down with all the butthurt over taxing the wealthy?

          by athenap on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:15:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Disagree about likelihood of action: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Triscula, mamamedusa
        AND we're not going to invade the privacy of the American Pistolaro  by keeping centralized records of who buys, or is licensed to carry "Life Preservers".
        For the first time ever, I think licensing and centralized record-keeping may be imposed along with a budget to make it real. That may seem insanely optimistic given that we haven't had other than an acting ATF director since the Bush administration. But there does seem to be a different attitude this time, however much that is a function of white privilege.

        I think the gun-show "loophole" will soon be dead. I think Internet sales of ammunition may be, too.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:34:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can see the gun-show and internet ammo (0+ / 0-)

          sales getting killed, but with a GOP House the rest does seem pretty optimistic.

          The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:55:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well ... who ever would have thought that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          people would willingly line up, remove their shoes  and submit to x-ray photography revealing their breasts and genitals.

          So, I suppose "anything is possible."

  •  This Country Was Rocked By the Bombing Deaths (116+ / 0-)

    of 4 black church girls in a Birmingham church often used by King, 2 weeks after the March on Washington and the "Dream" speech.

    The numerous diaries listing individuals and pairs of people dead by gunfire in the days since Sandy Hook were mostly about white victims who weren't publicized outside their local areas.

    Given that America demonstrated grief and compassion over mass killing of black children back in legal segregation times, I think if we had a Sandy Hook kind of event today of mostly black children we'd be in the same range of empathy as with Sandy Hook.

    I really think with Sandy Hook it's a matter of scale not very much one of race, and the fact that individual shootings of both whites and blacks are common enough not to be newsworthy nationally.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:52:47 PM PST

    •  And a lot has changed in 50+ years... (37+ / 0-)

      But it doesn't change the fact that the murder of black children is happening at a higher rate and those murders go under or not reported.

      The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing online commenters that they have anything to say.-- B.F.

      by lcj98 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:10:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  When black CHILDREN are killed (21+ / 0-)

        it gets splashed all over the front page. But the news media don't consistently consider black adolescents to be children. By that age, if there's any whiff of street life about them, they're not children in the eyes of the media, and their deaths are considered logical consequences rather than tragedies.

        "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

        by Geenius at Wrok on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:37:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  YES. I was talking to a friend about this (20+ / 0-)

          the other day: at what age does a black male child become a "young black male" "menace to society"?

          My friend said, 13. Me, I guesstimated the age to be about 8.

          My neighbor's 16 year old grandson was recently shot to death. Yes, he was involved in a drug deal. Heaven fucking forbid.

          So he was involved in a drug deal.

          I suppose the statute of limitations has run out on this, so I am free to admit (anonymously) that the way I personally funded my undergraduate education was by selling weed.

          Yes. Because I didn't have any mommy and daddy to pay for it, or even "help out."

          Did I commit a crime? Yep. I did. I had no choice. It was just weed (this was before the Reagan administration infiltrated the hood with guns and crack cocaine).

          So, as a young adult I sold weed because it was the best option I had for getting through college (please note: in the first semesters, I worked 4-part time jobs--my grades sucked because I didn't have time to work 4 part time jobs AND focus on school).

          When people immediately point to the fact that a lot of the gun deaths in the inner city involve drugs, what they're saying is that anyone who is selling drugs deserves to be shot and killed.

          So even if some of the black-on-black crime involves drug sales and/or other relatively minor, non-violent crimes...holy shit, what are we saying? That if some young kid resorts to selling drugs because that's the only option he sees, then he shouldn't be surprised if he ends up dead as a result?

          Seems to me that's the (ill)-logic behind it.

          •  you raise a valid point (14+ / 0-)

            for many children, dealing is normal and it pays, and trying to stay in school and work inside the system doesn't.  And being children with the inherent sense of it can't happen to me,  they don't emotionally identify with the risk of gangs, drug dealing, guns, etc. Plus many innocent bystanders die, too, so what's the difference becomes the attitude.

            The answer is not just taking away the guns but finding meaningful ways to offer real alternatives to dealing and gangs and gunfights. Because kids don't deserve to die just because they don't have choices that are more appealing.

            On the other hand, we do have to deal with the fact that we (as a society) are destroying these children in some very important ways at very young ages.   Deprivation of security, nurturing, even in the womb, etc. because of  poverty changes people and generally not in good ways.  Dickens wrote of it in a Christmas Carol,  race has nothing to do with it.   But we ignore it in this country because of race, all too often.  

          •  thank you (4+ / 0-)

            I live in New Orleans, and 'safety' is a joke. But I rarely feel endangered, even though I live in the 'scary' part of town.  
            Americans refuse to have a sense of proportion about 'danger.'

            Most of our lives are so safe, we barely see it.  Try raising a family in Cairo, or in the mid-East where US drones rain death from the sky without warning.

            And we see nothing wrong in slaughtering other people's children.  
            Sick puppies,we are.

            The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage laborers. - The Communist Manifesto

            by nolagrl on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:24:26 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  a point made, and often shouted-down (0+ / 0-)

              Most of our lives are so safe, we barely see it.  

              I've paraphrased a bit here:
              Try raising a family in Cairo.
              Or in the mid-East where US drones rain death from the sky without warning.

              And we see nothing wrong in slaughtering other people's children.  

              Excellent observations.

        •  Very good point n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          grumpelstillchen

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:41:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  This is a great point. (2+ / 0-)

          There is a real double standard here, just as there is with drug sentencing laws (powdered cocaine versus crack).

          (That sound you are hearing is a paradigm being shifted at Warp Factor Infinity using no clutch.)

          by homogenius on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:47:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Plus, who cares. (15+ / 0-)

      If we can use our racism for a positive purpose, then it's positive.

      I understand what the diarist is saying. I really do. I just don't think that it matters one tiny bit what finally gets the ball rolling. We need change on guns. Big. Deep. Cultural change. And if Trayvon Martin couldn't get it started, then at least someone could.

      GOP: The Party of Acid rain, Abortion of the American Dream, and Amnesty for Wall Street.

      by Attorney at Arms on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:29:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ontheleftcoast, renbear, Matt Z, Egalitare

        Ultimately, the solution is color blind, and if the means to get the ball rolling happens to be the statistical outlier of one subgroup in the suburbs that's OK if the end is fewer deadly weapons.

        Methinks it will be a long road with plenty of opportunity to use lots of statistics and, yes, the boring everyday onesy and twosy murders that are the majority population need to be front and center.

        Justice only comes with a solution. All the kids die in vain until something is done to correct the problem.

        What about my Daughter's future?

        by koNko on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:30:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  But racism isn't going to lead to a good solution (11+ / 0-)

        to guns.  Because of privilege around guns this is going to lead to another assault weapon ban, which won't to anything significant for total gun deaths, Columbine happened during the last assault rifle ban.  But, people will see that the evil weapon that killed those rich white kids will be illegal so everything is okay.

        As someone else noted here, if people wanted real gun control laws then black folks would have to organize militias and openly carry.  The GOP would get whiplash it would switch positions so quickly.

        The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:58:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  One of the changes (50+ / 0-)

      I noticed in Obama's talking about this, is that while he mentions Sandy Hook, Aurora, Fort Hood and such horrors, he also mentions the city street corners in Chicago and other cities. This is the first time he is consistently including all gun killings.

      Republicans want to make government small enough to fit in your vagina..

      by ramara on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:49:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with you, Gooserock (surprisingly!) (8+ / 0-)

      While some of what the diarist says is probably a factor, I think it's scale that created the outpouring of grief. It's hard to get masses of people engaged about a murder in L.A., one down in Atlanta, another in Florida, and then, oh, this cute little black 7-year-old girl who was shot to death in someone's crossfire outside her home in Chicago's North Austin neighborhood. Her name was Heaven Sutton, and she too was a "girlie girl" who loved pink and was looking forward to going to DisneyWorld. But she was only one child.

      Jon Husted is a dick.

      by anastasia p on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:49:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I would like to agree with that, but I can't. (13+ / 0-)

      Not necessarily.  The Birmingham church bombing took place in the context of the Civil Rights Movement, right after the March on Washington.  The country thought it had turned a corner and the 14th Street Church bombing just brought the Civil Rights issue to a crashing head.

    •  I agree with you and as a Canadian (4+ / 0-)

      I am incredulous that anyone would think the race of the victims would make any difference to me or anyone I know. The grief for these children came from all over the world, from people of many races and religions. This was an international tragedy.

      I really think with Sandy Hook it's a matter of scale not very much one of race, and the fact that individual shootings of both whites and blacks are common enough not to be newsworthy nationally.
      Bravo, well said.

      ❧To thine ownself be true

      by Agathena on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:05:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The race of victims DOES make a (20+ / 0-)

        difference in America.

        I grew up in the War on Drugs. Everything about our culture highlighted the inevitability of young death. We attended more funerals in the 90s than old people.

        What did America do? Blamed us for being "thugs". Blamed us for killing our own, as if gun proliferation wasn't a national issue.

        We were only kids. We had no hope, we had no jobs, we had no economy outside of drugs and we had no future.

        America had no sympathy. It wanted us to thin the herd. It still does. You can see this in the pushback against nationalized health care. They'd like for all of us poor folks (black, white or otherwise) to die and do it quickly.

        "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

        by GenXangster on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:30:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yo. Get rich or die tryin'--what they don't tell (5+ / 0-)

          you about that is that the latter is more likely to occur.

          Every time these issues come up, the issue of black-on-black violence also comes up.

          And most black folks then hesitate--for obvious reasons--to talk about that very real issue, focusing instead on police brutality and death by cop--also a significant issue.

          BUT. As Bakari Kitwana, in THE HIP HOP GENERATION, points out, by far the greater threat to young black males is death by other young black males. (sorry, am citing from memory, do not have page number)....

          People who did not grow up in the hood, people who know nothing about the hood except what they see/hear in the media or wherever, need to understand the developments behind the alarming rates of black-on-black violence. They need to be made aware of the way that the drug policies of this country have set this shit up (I personally call  it "do-it-yourself-genocide"--get those black folk to kill each other, so you don't have to.--you call it "thinning the herd". SAMOS, imo.)

          The story of your experience with the war on drugs needs to be told. Over and over again.

          It's a story I can't tell because frankly, I saw the shit coming, and left the country, knowing I would not survive if I stayed.

          So I don't know. I think you should consider taking this comment, expanding on it, and posting a diary on it.

          I try to give white folks the benefit of doubt, thinking, "well, if they only KNEW, then they would understand..."

          So tell it....

          •  The Far Greater Threat to White Males (8+ / 0-)

            Is other white males--but you never see anyone bring it up.  Ever.  I don't see anyone out there encouraging white folks to put down their guns and stop arming themselves to the teeth because the Black boogeyman. Does. Not. Exist.  Anymore than white ones such as the one that blew away a classroom's worth of kinders 13 days ago.

            They have far more to fear from their own white neighbors than they ever have to fear from Black males, when it comes to the potential for violence being visited upon them.  Murder, like most crimes, is an almost exclusively intraracial thing.  End of story.

            That being said, because it seems impossible even in supposedly liberal spaces to even talk about this issue without someone once again lumping the 4,000 Black youth who murdered someone (usually of their own race) in with the 14,000,000 who murdered absolutely no one when it comes to talking about this issue, I think that a separate discussion of the issue of Black on Black violence needs to take place, outside of the comparative context that it is always brought up in.  

            Frankly, it is usually white people (but not always) that bring it up--and they always trot out this statistic as if they are telling Black folks something they don't already know.  As if they are giving advice about something Black folks aren't already out there fighting to do something about.  Every single day.  In almost every community deeply impacted by this issue.  It doesn't take a lot of google searching to find out about what is being done, without denial, excuses, or trying to hide anything about the matter.  Which is why nothing irritates me more than the response "Black males need to do something about Black males and violence" in response to any discussion of this type. There is only one reason it is ever brought up - racist defensiveness, consciously or otherwise.

            •  yes. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gffish, isabelle hayes, ancblu
              a separate discussion of the issue of Black on Black violence needs to take place, outside of the comparative context that it is always brought up in.  
              And a better "comparative context" might include a discussion of the pre-Reagan/Nixon/War on Drugs state of affairs in Black communities and the post-Reagan/Bush state of affairs in the same communities.
            •  Also rarely commented upon is the fact (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              shanikka, isabelle hayes

              that virtually all mass murders such as at Sandy Hook, Aurora, and Columbine were committed by young, white males.

              •  Well, they become (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, gffish, grumpelstillchen

                "young males with problems and issues of the mental variety."

                I remember back when they got Eric Harris' (Columbine killer) sealed files from the Pentagon as well as other medical records to verify the medication that he was taking.

                So the media actually does discuss the fact that these are sick young men.

                The whiteness is never seen as part of the sickness, though. Whereas blackness is always part of the sickness when the person is black.

                •  Right. The white male mass murderer is (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gffish, Chitown Kev

                  seen as the exception to the rule (of an otherwise non-violent, stable, balanced, successful subset of human beings), but any black male who commits a crime--any crime--serves to confirm the rule in the perception of blacks, and black males especially, as dangerous criminals to the American people and the press.

                  Because the white male mass murderer is seen as the exception to the rule, the search for answers as to why? why? why? goes on and on. What went wrong? Was it mental illness? Video games? The product of bad parenting?

                  But when it comes to black on black crime, or crimes committed by blacks period,  there's no need to search for an answer in the mind of the public and the press--everybody knows that's just how "those people" are. We don't ask whether maybe the kid was a crack baby?First generation, or second.  Or maybe he witnessed the incident at Fenger, or some other horrific violence as a kid and never got over the trauma.

                  We do not ask those questions. As a society, we don't.

                  This is how and why victims of Hurricane Sandy are showered with luxury items while victims of Hurricane Katrina are decried as "looters".

    •  It is a matter of scale to a certain extent. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Marjmar, bleeding blue

      It's like the frog in boiling water scenario.  No reaction to dribs and drabs.

      ... like tears in rain

      by bladerunner on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:25:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  you explained why right in the first sentence: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GenXangster, AoT
      This Country Was Rocked By the Bombing Deaths (91+ / 0-)

      of 4 black church girls in a Birmingham church often used by King, 2 weeks after the March on Washington and the "Dream" speech.

      This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

      by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:25:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree completely. It's a scale issue, not a (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bleeding blue

      racial one, in this instance. Though we're losing far too many black men and children to gun violence, i don't recall this attention occurring over a one-here, two-there incident involving only white people either.

      The Mayans knew about Chained CPI!!!!

      by GoGoGoEverton on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:55:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I mostly agree with this (0+ / 0-)

      However, I'd add that the location - a "safe" suburban community - also added to the sense of shock and collective vulnerability.  We Americans aren't shocked by violence in places that we consider "dangerous", like big cities or "bad" neighborhoods.  When we're able to, we make conscious decisions about where to live based on these ideas of danger and safety, believing that we can insulate ourselves from violent crime.  When one of these events occurs in a place that we had labeled as "safe", it undermines our own (fictional) sense of invulnerability.  "Now we're all at risk for something like this."  That it was small children just intensifies the sense of horror and panic.  

      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

      by Triscula on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 05:42:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think that if that many whites were killed (40+ / 0-)

    but not all togeather (ie not a mass shooting)
    there would be much less uproar/upset.

    I think that if a school full of young children who were Black were shot up and killled all at once, there would be MORE of an uproar than where people are killed in individual incidents.

    It's the grouping all togeather...something with how the human mind works makes that feel worse. And that they were all little kids also

    and then, lastly, it may be color. The only test would be GOd forbid a school of mostly or all Black kids were shot up and twenty were killed and the public reactoin was not like this

    I think it would not be quite like this but it would be MORE than when people even kids are shot up in separate incidences across the country.

    SO I think race and middle or upper middle class ness is an overlay but not all of it.

    •  The group effect is definitely part of the (14+ / 0-)

      equation. I'm not denying that. But given the ratios if only 3 black children would killed it would be the same scale and yet I'm willing to be it wouldn't get one hundredth of the news coverage. We're basically blind to the problem of gun violence against blacks in this country. We need to stop being that way.

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:57:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  disagree. Feels like reaction to Black kids killed (8+ / 0-)

        in otherwise identical circumstances would be many fold higher than 1/100th of the reaction we are getting now with these mostly White kids.

        Even if it is 1/4 or 1/3 or even 1/10th as much news coverage and reaction (many fold less than 1/100th) it would be a sad day as we should react the same regardless of the color killed.

        It is a terrible thing that we'd react less to Black kids killed and I agree that we would. Just not at the ratio you state IMO.

        When we are teasing racial bias out is is important, I believe, to not exaggerate it. People hear us better when we are accurate and don't discount our pronouncements as much.  I am not saying you are exaggerating necessarily yourself, but if I were to say 1/100th I would be, because we disagree.

        •  The murder rate for black children is higher (9+ / 0-)

          but because of several factors we're likely to never see a massacre on the same scale as Sandy Hook or even Columbine. Black children in CA are 5 times as likely to be murdered as white children. Why aren't we seeing 5 times the outrage? As I pointed out, proportionately 3 black children killed in a single incident is on the same scale as Sandy Hook. But because of the fact whites outnumber blacks 6:1 we're unlikely to ever see a tragedy of the scale of Sandy Hook in a black community. That's white privilege in action. Because we don't see it until it crosses some threshold we've set for ourselves we don't see when it happens to others on the same (or much, much worse) scale.

          To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

          by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:45:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  you pointed out, but I don't follow it (12+ / 0-)

            As I pointed out, proportionately 3 black children killed in a single incident is on the same scale as Sandy Hook

            So are you saying 3 Black kids dying is the same as approx 20 White kids and the public reaction should be equivalent?

            It's not and it's largely because the SHEAR NUMBERS ALL AT ONCE IN ONE PLACE are what the news media and the public react to

            Notice the other shootings this week...2 to 4 people killed at once. In one incident I believe all were WHite. Very little publicity comparative to Sandy Hook I believe because LOW NUMBERS AT ONCE and that they were Adults not kids

            •  ie fair or not scale or not humans don't react (4+ / 0-)

              that way...to scale, proportionally
              they react to each single incident as a whole

              so the freak out at twenty killed more than three...of any color

              Race matters I agree
              but it might help your argument if you get clear on the parts that are not race, IMO.
              expecting people to react to scale isn't how all human beings Are made.

              •  But--newscasters kept talking about their own kids (0+ / 0-)

                One of the reasons Newtown hit such a chord was because the upper 10%, the media, the VIPs in Washington, all saw their kids in the dead. They said how their children were the same age.

                Twenty black children, no matter how cute, with their hair in ribbons, would not make those people think, "she could be mine".

                Conservation is green energy

                by peggy on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:05:57 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  it was kids in school and empathising with parents (0+ / 0-)

                  they sent their kids to school that day too

                  again the only test is if a school with minority kids gets shot up and twenty six year olds die.

                  I am telling you parents would think of their kids as well. Many white parents would

                  however...
                  I do surmise that it would possibly be less resonant for some people but not all.

            •  But that's the problem (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril, mwm341, politicalceci, AoT, Aquarius40

              We extremely unlike to see that event happen. So since it won't reach some self-imposed threshold we're blind to it happening. That's a big problem with white privilege -- we look at absolutes and don't see the problem in other communities so it doesn't get the same reaction. It's not "our" problem and that's wrong.

              To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

              by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:50:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let's all hope that (4+ / 0-)

                "we're extremely unlikely to see that event happen." I'm glad you live in a world where it seems less likely that a black school gets shot up.

                •  Mathematically it's the world we do live in though (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mwm341, AoT

                  And that sucks because it means we're largely blind to the problems of minorities in respect to gun violence as well as many other issues. They don't have the voice to be heard. That they'd have to wait for the rare moments they have a tragedy on the mystical scale of outrage required for us to see the problem is a shame.

                  To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

                  by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:01:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I guess I get what you're saying, but I don't... (3+ / 0-)

                    think that you can just boil it all down to proportional mathematics. Given the hatred that many people hold and display towards blacks, I'd think someone going in and slaughtering black children would be a more likely scenario than a Sandy Hook.

                    Also, you're absolutely right that there is a significant racial component to gun violence in this country. But in the case of Sandy Hook, gun violence is sort of secondary to the mass murder aspect of it all. The gun stuff is the only part that's rectifiable. While we wouldn't get Wayne LaPierre, I assure you the news would have been just as focused and hyperbolic had it been a mass poisoning. I can also guarantee you, as much as I can speak on behalf of white people, that the attention would have been just as focused on a black elementary school that had 20 kids taken out. The media doesn't care about an individual black child, but it sure as hell would care about 20.

                    Now, I will grant you that if it happened in Compton or the Bronx, the media would blame black people and AA culture, but if it happened in, say, North Carolina, I truly believe there would be no difference in coverage. I know you don't believe that, and I doubt you want to hear that, but I think its absolutely true.

              •  Well here: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bigjacbigjacbigjac

                These are the victims of  the Virginia Tech massacre:

                http://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

                http://image.guardian.co.uk/...

                http://www.crossfitinception.com/...

                Was there less sympathy, concern or outrage because of the number of persons of color  who were victims? I count around  half, based on appearance and where foreign students were from.

                I just recall Americans being horrified that yet again students were killed in a place where they should have been safe by someone that should have been protected from.  

                © grover


                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 10:55:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think there was the same reaction at all (0+ / 0-)

                  Yes,  people were sad, but people are all outraged now. Maybe it's just the age, but I noticed the girl whose picture they use the most from Sandy Hook is the little blonde girl. Coincidence? I don't think so.

                  My dog is a member of Dogs Against Romney: He rides inside.

                  by adigal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:31:02 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  age/all the littlest of children who go to school (0+ / 0-)

                    we have not had a shooting of all little kids before

                  •  several 'little blong girls" were killed (0+ / 0-)

                    if it's who I'm thinking of, that would be because her particular parents got out there and talked to the press about their daughter within a day or two of the shooting...the Dad is the only parent who did a press conference. People grieve differently ...many other parents didn't even give photos of their kid out right away.

                •  Virginia Tech (0+ / 0-)

                  is disproportionately white and male ... and when I say disproportionate, I mean off the charts.

                  Seventy percent of the student body is white and less than one-half of one percent self-identifies as black or African-American.  And, fifty-eight percent of total enrollment is male.

                  Virgina Tech Student Overview

                  I would argue, based on these data, that the VT massacre is equally illustrative of the phenomenon of selective national outrage primarily when bastions of white privilege is involved and not the universality of outrage irrespective of race, class or economic disadvantage.

                  The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                  by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:45:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I disagree, I think (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT, jplanner

                    I think there would have been just as much outrage if those shootings had taken place at...oh, The University of Michigan or UCLA, or (as happened here), Northern Illinois...or, heaven forbid, Harvard or MIT.

                    Those stats that you cite have more to do with the fact that Va. tech is a Tech school. And that Va Tech was the largest mass shooting on a campus in the history of the country.

                    •  Pulled from the NIU website (0+ / 0-)

                      Here's the profile

                      Ethnic/Racial Categories–Undergraduate

                      •White: 61.3%
                      •Black: 16.3%
                      •Hispanic/Latino: 11.7%
                      •Asian: 4.9%
                      •Race Unknown: 2%
                      •2 or more races: 2.4%
                      •Non-res. Alien: 1.2%
                      •Native American: less than 1%
                      •Native Hawaiian: less than 1%      
                      Male/Female Categories

                      •Undergraduate: 49.8% male; 50.2% female
                      •Graduate: 42.0% male; 58.0% female
                      Average High School Class Rank and ACT Score

                      •High School Class Rank (percentile) for NIU freshmen: 61.9
                      •High School Grade Point Average for NIU freshmen: 3.11
                      •ACT Score for NIU freshmen: 22
                      •ACT Score for high school

                      •  Your data supports (0+ / 0-)

                        my point.  NIU is only marginally more representative of the national black population, which is about 14% as of the 2010 Census.

                        2010 Census

                        The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                        by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:43:11 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  UH (0+ / 0-)

                          POC does not necessarily equal black, for one.

                          And actually, that's a few percentage points above the percentage of people that live in Illinois that are black.

                          •  There is absolutely no marginal differential .... (0+ / 0-)

                            14% of the Illinois population is black, per the 2010 Census that is the most accurate and current demographic data available.

                            And Dekalb ... really?

                            You want to argue this point?

                            Unbelievable.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:52:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  and what about the female population (0+ / 0-)

                          which is kind of a low percentage for a school in Illinois, actually.

                          •  And what about the female population? (0+ / 0-)

                            All you keep doing is refuting your own objection that these academic populations do not represent anything but the dominant cultural paradigm.

                            Please ... is under-representation so difficult to comprehend -- let alone conceptualize its implications?

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:56:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm going to be a little more mature here (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            But what is you point?

                            That an HBCU is safer than a predominately white school?

                            I might allow that you might be safer from a mass shooting at an HBCU than at a predominately white college.

                            But what about other types of crimes?

                            Your deception here is the suggestion that mass shootings have become SOP at predominately white colleges, The truth is you're about as likely to be involved in one of those shootings at a white college as it is that you would be involved in a plane crash.

                          •  Ok ... thanks for that effort (0+ / 0-)

                            and I will reciprocate in the same spirit.

                            This diary addresses the issues of gun control and white privilege stemming from the Newtown tragedy.

                            More than one commenter has disagreed that the reaction to this slaughter of babies -- all white babies -- reflects any form of disparate national treatment between black firearm related homicides and these more typical white on white violence of rampage killings.  These latter events more often occur at public institutions, whether grade schools, universities, public malls or workplaces.  These are bastions of white privilege, where the concept of safety and security is most threatened and it has engendered a public policy reaction that seemingly ignores the vastly larger problem in disadvantaged minority communities that correlates to race, class and economic under-privilege.

                            I have nowhere suggested mass shootings have become SOP at predominantly white colleges and your suggestion that I am deceived on that point is entirely misplaced and you have actually missed the point, repeatedly.  Virginia Tech was supposedly offered as an example that refuted the notion that white privilege is implicated in these rampage killings -- also more often inflicted by those with mental health issues rather than crime associated with disadvantaged communities.  VT, however, is nothing if not an institution reflecting the dominant white male hierarchy -- as are all other universities you mentioned.

                            HBCUs are NOT bastions of white privilege in the same manner that black churches and minority communities are not. These institutions may have their own problems unique to their own cultural concerns and characteristics -- for example anti-gay bias and even violence, which you in fact identified.  

                            Anti-gay attitudes and discrimination may be related to this larger problem of gun violence and white privilege.  I don't know, but it is a subject well worth discussing -- in a mature and civil manner.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 01:36:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Well ... (0+ / 0-)

                      you haven't provided any data to support your belief, whereas the facts demonstrate that the VT student body is extremely over-representative of the white male hierarchy.

                      And no institution you mentioned, including NIU, is identifiable as an HBCU and therefore they are all subject to the same essential characteristic as VT.  Until you can address that point, what is shown by the evidence and what you believe seems to be at distinct variance -- the entire point of this Diary and the poor cognitive appreciation of the public of the positive correlation of racial and economic disadvantage with gun violence.

                      NIU: 61% White/16% Black
                      UoM: 62% White/4.4% Black
                      UCLA: 32% White/3% Black
                      Harvard: na White/10% Black
                      MIT: 39% White/10% Black

                      NIU
                      UoM
                      UCLA
                      Harvard
                      MIT

                      The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                      by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:39:51 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Honey please (0+ / 0-)

                        quit the feminist black nationalist bullshit and talk English.

                        NIU is nothing like those other schools and as a gay ma (as well as a black man) it would be dangerous for me to set my feet on an HBCU campus.

                        Need we bring up incidents at HBCU's? How about the bigotry?

                        And you're talking to someone that attended an HBCU and preferred to hang out at "the white campus" in town.

                        And the outlier there is MIT, actually.

                        I love it when black folks come here to spout this type of shit, as if an HBCU is paradise, I damn near got killed on an HBCU campus for being gay

                        •  Oh honey bun ... (0+ / 0-)

                          You're obviously an insecure and judgmental wanna-be pedant without a clue.  I bring up HBCU's as a counter-point to your own transparent infatuation with the white and privileged and that is your analytical response?  What a simpleton pissoir ... you don't deserve the degree you received.

                          But by all means, keep trying to classify me ... whether queer, straight, man, woman, black, white or fucking polka dot ... it simply reveals that your ignorance is subordinated only to your own racist and mysoginyst bullshit.  I now have utterly no respect for your pathetic racial and masculine insecurity.  

                          If you have one iota of fact or wit,  please do try to keep up with the real world beyond your own personal myopia.  And I certainly have no doubt that you would prefer to"hang" with those who don't directly threaten your own massive self-loathing.  The world is full of self-projecting assholes and I have the sincere displeasure of meeting one -- Chitown Kev, what a predictable and boring parody.

                          So go learn basic academic literacy and then get over your grotesque self-absorption.

                          The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                          by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:33:34 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  When I ask someone not to respond to me (0+ / 0-)

                            that's exactly what I mean.

                          •  Are you clever enough (0+ / 0-)

                            to see the double irony there of no self-awareness coupled with self-absorption in a response to me asking for no response to you?

                            You can post, I can post ... it's a community forum.  Get over yourself, sweetie.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 11:52:40 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  And by the way, (0+ / 0-)

                          since you brought them up let me know if you want any real information about UCLA or the University of Michigan. I'd be happy to share what I can about Ann Arbor and Westwood to a wide-eyed boy with silly little dreams.

                          Dekalb, though ... you're on your own.  

                          But do keep swimming upstream ... eyes on the prize, girlfriend.

                          The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                          by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:16:59 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  "boom bye bye" was a party starter at my college (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Chitown Kev

                          sad to say.

                          This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

                          by mallyroyal on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 07:45:26 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm trying to approach this person (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mallyroyal

                            in a more mature way.

                            It's still highly highly highly unlikely that you will be shot and killed in a mass shooting at a "white college."

                          •  Delusional Self-Absorption ... (0+ / 0-)

                            "Honey please, quit the feminist black nationalist bullshit and talk English."

                            Racist, mysoginist and demonstrated illiteracy is not "approaching in a mature way" ... unless you are Chitown Kev, a silly little self-parody.

                            And Honey Bun ... don't call me out and then expect me not to respond. Put on your man-pants and nut up, sweetie.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 11:42:37 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and I said that I was going to be more mature (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            about things post-coffee drip...

                            and you still haven't answered my substansive question or...let me put it like this...since I'm in Chicago.

                            Where would I stand the best chance, statistically speaking, of avoiding a mass shooting of the Va. Tech/NIU type, Chicago State University (which s/b an HBCU, if it's not) or...let's say the Chicago campus of the University of Illinois?

                            Chicago State would probably be safer as it regards mass shootings (if we're operating strictly on a "white school" v. "black school" thing.

                            But the difference there would be so marginal as to be non-existent; so your beef really doesn't say all that much; mass shootings at colleges and universities in the United States are very very very rare.

                            and, of course, you choose to completely ignore gender...or even private/public status of universities, really...

                            oh, and any college campus (black or white, public or private) would be safer than quite a few black neighborhoods...for different reasons.

                          •  and please (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            explain this shooting here and how it fits into alll of your theories.

                          •  and if you read everything that I've written (0+ / 0-)

                            in this thread, I've never said that whiteness has nothing to do with any of these shootings (much less the media reactions).

                          •  In fact (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            Here's some necessary evidence as to what happens when such a shooter is other than "white".

                            I know that it's huffington post...where bigotry reigns, but the racism in that thread is disgusting.

                          •  Your link (0+ / 0-)

                            was to the one you provided above and not to HP, so I can't comment on it.

                            I do agree completely though, HP comments can be a disgusting cesspool of bigotry and ignorance, whether in racial matters or anti-gay hatred, as but two examples.  

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 03:52:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My bad... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            that's what I get for juggling all these sites and windows aT ONCE...

                          •  I did not see that news (0+ / 0-)

                            when it occurred ... is that a function of my missing something that was well reported or rather another example of minority violence (in this case, principally Korean) that does not sufficiently threaten our dominant cultural paradigm of white privilege?

                            I read your link and did just a brief bit of further research on that incident as you requested.

                            As for fitting with "all my theories," it appears that this is another example of a rampage killing by someone with a history of serious mental illness.  His criminal case hearing on his mental capacity to stand trial has been postponed until this coming January.  This incident is clearly characteristic of this much rarer form of gun violence ... which does not suggest that various forms of rampage killings cannot be committed by minorities against any racial group including other minorities -- think of the John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo sniper shootings as another example.

                            Whether relevant our not to our exchange here, my policy preference in dealing with rampage killings involves both better access to health care, including mental health, to provide early screening and treatment.  In addition, we should develop an appropriate gun purchase registry that would limit access to firearms for those who evidence a higher propensity to violence as one finds in major psychiatric disorders.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 04:28:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not sure what you think (0+ / 0-)

                            my "beef" is.  What you believe I ignore is simply not correct.

                            Mass rampage killings, whether on a public or private campus or any other institutional setting of our predominantly white male hierarchical society are rare -- the multi-national data suggests about 1 event per year for every 100 to 200 million in population.  

                            And yet, these events are what principally motivate much of our current public discourse on "controlling" gun violence -- at the same time the acute national crisis of gun violence in disadvantaged and racial minority communities is effectively ignored.  

                            Based on the statistical frequency of different types of gun violence, I do argue that white privilege is a central feature of our misplaced national response.  So my real "beef," to use your term, is actually that we are not properly addressing the underlying factors that positively correlate to the frequency and intensity of metropolitan gun violence -- age, gender, income, education, etc.  

                            The progressive agenda would do well to emphasize the root causes rather than the chimerical "banning" if we want to seriously address this significant public crisis -- even including more accessible and affordable mental health care for those more typically associated with rampage killings.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 03:47:41 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  I just thought about something (0+ / 0-)

                        The syntax and the subject matter of your posts are a little too familiar to me from another website.

                        Please DO NOT respond to any of my post and I will not respond to yours, please.

                        •  Looking for a bogeyman (0+ / 0-)

                          under every bush.  No surprise there.

                          In truth, we have no familiarity whatsoever, thankfully, and it is only your insecure fantasies that lead you to that little tingle that you "know me" from somewhere.

                          Syntax, subject matter?  My ... you are a silly little parody, aren't you.

                          Please?  You have no idea, child.

                          The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                          by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:45:46 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  example below of my logic (0+ / 0-)

                that aspect of "blindness" is about the impact of the shear number being killed at once and that part of it is NOT about White privilidge. Seems like you are confouding these things.
                Three kids slaughtered at once just does not have the impact on anyone like twenty.
                I am not denying racial bias in the coverage nor in the reactions to the Sandy Hook tragedy but have been pushing to show that it can't be  compared to your scenario.

                A way to show what I am saying is this. Say there are 20 women a year murdered by their abusive husbands and boyfriends that they had a restraining order against, within a certain geographical area. These inividual incidences do not cause an uproar. But if 20 women (say in a meeting) were killed at once by some man who had a restraining order against him, it would be on the news round the clock. Everone would be talking about it.

                If you looked at the first instance (individual murders), you could conclude that people didn't care about women. But you would not conclude that in the aftermath of the second group killing. Anyone looking at comparing the situations (analogous to comparing the individual killings of Black kids with group killing in Sandy Hook) would think that people cared more about the women in the group than they cared about the individual women for some reason. If the women in the group had a characteristic (racial, or age, or other demographic) characteristic different from the individuals an observer might ERRONEOUSLY think that it was do to that characteristic (analogous to white priviledge you percieve in the Sandy Hook case as reason why people care about this group dying over individual Black kids) not the group being slayed togeather.

                I can't continue if you do not try to follow this logic.There are in fact so many examples of White privilge in the coverage of Sandy Hook...things even grated on me as a white woman from  a working class background and modest means. "things like this don't happen here" "we are a nice town, a safe town"...upper middle class privledge as well. As someone pointed out...people looked at those kids and were reminde of their own, true.

                Again, the split attention group of mostly White kids vis Indiviual Black kids...it just cannot be compared. It is erroneous to draw any conclussions from that because of the number difference.

                But it would be interesting to point out obvious incidences of excessive White (I also saw very much Class privlege myself...I think the reporters many NYC based many with friends who lived IN that part of CT upper midle class themselves...I think they felt it happened to people like them and NOT just because the were White).

            •  Correct: 30,000 gunshot deaths per year. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ontheleftcoast, jplanner

              How many white OR black shooting victims do you actually hear about?
                Aurora, Virginia Tech, Gabby Giffords, Sandy Hook...
              You've heard about those because of the number of victims and in the case of the Tucson massacre, one of the victims was a member of Congress.
                Otherwise, a shooting death is just three or four paragraphs in the local paper.

          •  Not to dispute your main point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mwm341

            Which I agree with (well-known problem to the point of unhealthy comfort, if you will) I'm not sure I follow your reasoning about "scaling".

            To scale the rate of black children murdered and apply it to white, a greater absolute number of white children would be killed.

            To scale a "Sandy Hook" incident to the black population, a smaller absolute number of black children (per incident) would be killed.

            Correct?

            So for us to see a Sandy Hook scale incident in the black community, you would factor the rate to the population.

            And in such case (where fewer absolute victims are required to achieve the same rate) it's quite possible there are already quite a few Sandy Hooks in the black community that are being ignored.

            Which is far worse.

            You would have to hunt out examples to validate that, but I find it a credible scenario.

            Lastly, the only new point I'd like to add to the discussion is that the solution is color blind: Ban the weapons and take them back as quickly as possible because access leads to tragedy.

            What about my Daughter's future?

            by koNko on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:41:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You should differentiate (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              different types of gun violence to make a more effective comparison with your point -- to the extent that is possible.

              Rampage killings by social isolates are very different in cause, effect and demographics than suicide and other more prevalent forms of criminal injuries and homicides involving firearms.

              The principle of scaling has limited utility if these critical distinctions are ignored.

              The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

              by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:15:07 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jplanner, ancblu

                But my comment above is in response to the diarist who is making these comparisons with what I consider to be a logical flaw that actually works against his argument.

                Regardless, the diarist has a valid point about the demographics of gun violence and how it is treated by the MSM and society at large. To paraphrase an expert on mass-murder - Joseph Stalin - an isolated cluster of 26 deaths is a national tragedy but a million everyday shooting deaths is a statistic.

                I'm glad Mr. Obama keeps noting both because they have a common root cause - access to deadly weapons.

                What about my Daughter's future?

                by koNko on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:15:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  basically my point, which you judge harshly (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ancblu

                elsewhere and got kind of personal

                I think you responded to my comment in isolation not as part of a conversation

                •  I apologize if I misunderstood (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jplanner

                  your point and perspective in its context.  I did agree with another reply that raised a similar concern suggested by your language.  This subject matter -- gun control and white privilege is a minefield fraught with visceral emotion.

                  The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                  by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 01:42:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I don't agree with this. (0+ / 0-)
        •  "otherwise identical circumstances" (7+ / 0-)

          you mean an almost all black population, with a majority of black teachers, majority of black students, majority of black residents in a community where the median income is clearly around $100 K (I'm just guesstimating there), in a sleepy little community that doesn't even need "gates" to be "gated" because the income barrier does the trick....

          You see my point? "otherwise identical circumstances" is a ridiculous proposal.

          I know there are a few mostly black upper to upper middle class communities in this country, but not many.

          At any rate, to speak in terms of "otherwise identical circumstances" ignores the fact that part of the problem is that African Americans are very unlikely to ever experience "otherwise identical circumstances". And that, too, is a function of white privilege.

          •  followed. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, grumpelstillchen

            this is gold:

            you mean an almost all black population, with a majority of black teachers, majority of black students, majority of black residents in a community where the median income is clearly around $100 K (I'm just guesstimating there), in a sleepy little community that doesn't even need "gates" to be "gated" because the income barrier does the trick....

            You see my point? "otherwise identical circumstances" is a ridiculous proposal.

            even though I went to a college that drew a lot of kids from exactly such an enclave in MD, this is an excellent point to make.

            This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

            by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:19:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yet not the one i was making (0+ / 0-)

              exactly the same circumstances was misleading
              I meant circumstances that mattered vis a vis the killing itself...ie cirumstances of the shooting
              numbers of people killed
              ages killed
              and in a school

              because that is what we were talking about...diarist is trying to compare individual isolated killings of people of all ages

              to killing of twenty little kids at school...

              saying that emotional reacton of public should be the same and that it's not is racial bias

              I say....you can't compare them and conclude that.

          •  Exactly correct. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, grumpelstillchen

            I'm also extremely disappointed in the statement:

            When we are teasing racial bias out is is important, I believe, to not exaggerate it.
            Good lord ... so when identifying the scope and degree of white hierarchical privilege -- "teasing out"? -- we can only go so far before it becomes too uncomfortable to acknowledge, and thus it must be an exaggeration.

            If there was ever an entirely unaware and self-defeating assertion, we've just seen it.

            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:57:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you want people to see it and take it seriously (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ancblu

              it's important not to exaggerate it

              I'm a minority also but not racially. I live this dynamic first hand.

              If you read my posts you see that I have no discomfort...my objection is out of logic (illogic of comparing apples to oranges) not discomfort

              I also say elsewhere that I saw race and class bias in the coverage of Sandy Hook and in the reactions even of residents.

              I am not even disputing whether something is true or not but that if it's logical to conclude something from a comparison the diarist is making.

              •  I do agree that exaggeration (0+ / 0-)

                or disregard of data does not help in public discourse or crafting appropriate policy solutions.

                I live in the rural west where firearms are commonplace -- and I own several myself and support ownership rights.  I am also very aware that the problem of gun violence is serious national problem and we need to craft appropriate regulatory solutions that truly address where the problem lies.

                In my judgment, the principal correlating factors of our gun violence epidemic are primarily driven by under-privilege -- in education, employment, health care and youth.  

                By ignoring these key drivers and focusing on emotional responses -- such as banning "black gun" assault weapons when urban handguns are the primary issue -- we will not be addressing or solving the root problems.

                The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 02:47:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  poster said (0+ / 0-)

              response to killing of Black kids would be 1/100th of white kids

              seems very large.

              You think that's true? If twenty Black kids were killed in their school the public and the media reaction would be 1/100th of that for Sandy Hook?

              if it is much more than 1/1ooth, it would be fair to call what she wrote an exaggeration would it not?

              •  Why does it have to be (0+ / 0-)

                "at a school"?  Black children (under 18) are killed at a rate far more alarming than what occurred at Newtown -- on a regular basis.  And it is a fact that our society reacts differently to this reality, which is the essential point suggested by the Diary and a great many recommends.

                So is it truly an exaggeration to say 1/10, 1/100 or even 1/1000 if our society is in fact ignoring the far more serious problem of firearm crime, injuries and fatalities by handguns in disadvantaged communities?  I think not. If you disagree that's fine, but I don't believe the fractional value that you've objected to is the relevant point.

                The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 02:36:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm just trying to hold the comparison ..reactions (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ancblu

                  to the killings of two races...as closely as possible Otherwise extra variables contaminate the comparison between the two scenarios.

                  It doesn't "have to be a school" but holding it to that makes the comparison logically even more clear and irrefutable. I am trying to support an argument that is less refutable by others who would deny it.

                  The premise is that it is about race. From the data we have you cannot logically conclude that is it...too many variables. Holding as many variables as possilbe Un-varying (ie the same) can tease out what is really true.

                  Also, I sense that this one hit home more because it was a large number...of very young Kids....at a school where parents send their kids every am and is assumed to be safe.

                  I think those three things...beyond or in addition to race...are reasons why the reaction to this shooting was different than other mass shootings (even those of mostly Whites).

                  it' s just an intellectual argument (if as I say God Forbid a school of Black kids got shot up and many were killed) but I am doing it to be able to support the premise of the diary.

                  •  I don't strictly agree that the premise (0+ / 0-)

                    is about race, per se.  Instead, I believe the premise is based on the distinction between the dominant socio-cultural paradigm of white privilege that demonstrably obscures the most acute type of gun violence in our country that occurs in disadvantaged communities.

                    Scale does matter, whether in a single incident or in aggregate, but as a matter of scale there is no question that handgun violence by urban, young, male, minority, under-educated and economically disadvantaged populations is a more profound problem than rampage killings, as horrific and tragic as they may be.

                    I also respectfully disagree that exclusion of identified correlating variables somehow obscures a comparison between different types of gun violence, whether rampage killings, suicides, domestic violence or the complex multi-variable urban crimes, injuries and homicides.

                    The progressive agenda should focus on all of these variables -- universal health care, including mental health, economic and educational opportunity and other social support systems that will narrow the divide between the privileged and the disadvantaged.

                    Thanks for the discussion.

                    The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                    by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 04:46:16 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  I see you judge me before you tke time (0+ / 0-)

              to understand where I am coming from so just ignore my explanations below...I see they won't land on you anyway

          •  no (0+ / 0-)

            I mean twenty kids mostly six or seven shot up by a crazy guy in their school
            that is all

      •  if they were black it would've gotten (10+ / 0-)

        the same attention.

      •  The ratio argument is bogus. (4+ / 0-)

        Three people killed is three people killed - it is of exactly the same significance, regardless of their background.

        By the reasoning behind this "ratio" argument, one black person being killed should get more attention than four white people.  Meanwhile, one Jewish person being killed should get more attention than two black people.

        But of course, that makes no sense.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:53:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  See my comment up-thread (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ontheleftcoast, mwm341, ancblu

          I think his reasoning in applying rates is a bit confused, but I think the point he's trying to make is valid and I demonstrate the problem he's suggesting in terms of relative populations.

          And I agree with you both, and others:

          - 3 people killed is 3 tragedies whomever they are

          - scale is important because "Big" numbers get more attention

          - demographic rates are important because they correlate to underlying causes and also define the degree to which we find a problem "tolerable", and I do think the diarist is correct in stating American society tolerates the higher rate of black deaths to a degree that would not be tolerated if they were white

          And given the reasoning of the first point, the situation in the third point should cause outrage, but it doesn't.

          What about my Daughter's future?

          by koNko on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:54:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is helpful in understanding (0+ / 0-)

            your point upthread.  Thanks.

            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:17:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for this (32+ / 0-)

    I live in a city plagued by gang violence.  Young boys grow up in drug infested, gang controlled neighborhoods where even the police fear to go.  They come from broken homes, often the child of an addicted mother, and live under conditions that few people could escape whole.  For generation after generation, we have lost these children, and we continue to do so.  And it's not just teen gang members with too easy to get guns firing at each other in turf battles, often they hit innocent bystanders, even children.  A teen age girl was murdered in a drive by shooting standing outside the public library in my own neighborhood.  But these are black children, so they don't count.

    "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

    by Navy Vet Terp on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:01:26 PM PST

    •  Thanks for your diary on the 2nd Amendment (10+ / 0-)

      While I don't agree with all of it you did a great job in laying out the history for us. Sadly our current SCOTUS doesn't seem to give a damn about that history. And because of that I strongly feel we need to tackle gun deaths from other avenues. Attacking poverty and ending the war on drugs would have huge benefits and not just in reducing the gun deaths in this country. We need to admit to the reality that the 2nd Amendment is Scalia's Holy Scripture and he will never allow an inch of ground against it. And given the current court he automatically gets Thomas and Alito to side with him. So we start with a three justive deficit and if we lose two others it's another defeat in the courts. How many times can we say it, "It's the Supreme Court", and we don't even need the "stupid".

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:13:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  A path forward (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DefendOurConstitution

      In my state, as I suppose in many others, a child is killed by a gun every week.  This is obviously of a concern for parents, and everyone, and these kids do not have televised funerals, and the parents do not have the president visiting them.  They are just dead.  Some would say it is the number killed at once, some would say that it because tis rampage, like most others, effected white upper class people.  I don't know if either is true, but I do not we have to look at what was in the diary if we want gun control.  Because to get gun control we have to make it acceptable to the gun owners, not just the rich white people.

      Here is the issue as I see it. First, parents are scared, and want to protect their family.  In the south, for example, this is a gun, and a gun that is powerful enough to be effective.  So given that criminals will have guns, they want guns.  Simply banning guns will not make the situation better.

      In the north we have segregated cities with murder rates 3 and 4 times the rate the respective state.  These city also tend to to contain a majority of minorities. For instance while New York City is not a high crime rate city, it is typical of northern city in that it contains almost two thirds od the blacks in the state.  Obviously this creates a situation where urban blacks feel the need a gun to defend themselves, and rural elements want a gun to defend themselves against the urban horde.

      None of these interests will be mollified by making sure guns used to kill rich white kids are not available.  We could try to focus on the murder rate in the cities, particularly the northern segregated city.  We could stop using language that serves to merely create fear in white populous that is increasingly insecure due to hard working immigrants taking the jobs.  In the end, the urban folk will get guns, and the rural folk will go to gun shows.

  •  Do you think that if 20 black children... (34+ / 0-)

    ...were killed in similar circumstances, we wouldn't have reacted in the same way?  I don't think it's necessary, sensible, or useful to bring on white privilege in one of the rare examples where there's such an obvious and compelling rebuttal.  

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:08:18 PM PST

    •  20 black children would be like 120 white children (8+ / 0-)

      Because the numbers make it unlikely we'd see the tragedy on the same scale. Add in the fact that spree killings are usually white on white violence and it means we're unlikely to ever see such a tragic event. So yes, if we had 20 black children murdered it would get coverage. But I'd still claim not as much. And we have 3 black children murdered how many times a year and almost nobody hears about it. It's the murder rate that disturbs me. And that we don't talk about it is part of white privilege.

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:17:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I find this sentence such a perfect reply to this (8+ / 0-)

      diary's premise,

      I don't think it's necessary, sensible, or useful to bring on white privilege in one of the rare examples where there's such an obvious and compelling rebuttal.
      that all I can do is repeat it and publicly wish I could rec it twice. You stated what I feel about this diary's premise in a reasonable and non-accusatory way, and I openly declare that if I'd used my own words I'd have risked banning.

      Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

      by davidincleveland on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:08:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly, they were fucking first graders. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      homogenius, MaikeH, lighttheway

      Butchered with an assault rifle. THAT is why there is an uproar. It's actually depressing to see this so prominently displayed on the site.

      "Buying Horizon Milk to support organic farming is like purchasing an English muffin in an effort to prop up the British economy." -Windowdog

      by Windowdog on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 11:16:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  As Navy Vet Terp points out, and as I did as well (6+ / 0-)

      the "similar circumstances" you refer to don't exist for most black people, if for any.

    •  Well... (4+ / 0-)
      ..were killed in similar circumstances, we wouldn't have reacted in the same way?
      No, I don't think that "America" would have reacted in the same way.
      •  You posit comparable circumstances (0+ / 0-)

        that do not exist, then assert that "America" would not react any differently in the inapplicable case.

        Rampage killings are most typically white on white with larger individual scale assaults.

        Urban violence is most typically black on black with massively larger scale homicides and injuries in aggregate.

        The underlying socio-demographic factors are certainly more complex, but America just as certainly reacts completely differently to the two distinct types of circumstances.  This is a matter of basic fact that no amount of belief will change.

        The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

        by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:43:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  We discussed it in our house (14+ / 0-)

    But you're correct - haven't seen it in the press either online or on the TV machine. Definitely needs discussing.

    Thank your stars you're not that way/Turn your back and walk away/Don't even pause and ask them why/Turn around and say 'goodbye'/Just wish them well.....

    by Purple Priestess on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:37:20 PM PST

    •  Thanks PP (12+ / 0-)

      What gets me riled up in this whole gun control debate is we're focused on a tragedy in a completely disproportionate manner. Yes, Sandy Hook was a terrible event. But spree killings are a tiny fractions (roughly 0.5%) of the gun deaths in this country. Even banning and getting rid of every 30 round clip and semi-automatic weapon in this country would have a limited effect on the murder rate in this country. That story is lost in this discussion as well. Even if we followed Australia's example and got rid of all the so called "assault rifles", large magazines, "cop killer" bullets, etc. we'd still have dozens of gun deaths a day. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try to reduce the availability of guns but unless we want to remove all the guns in this country (and fulfill the wildest fears of the NRA and several other groups) we're not going to seriously address gun deaths in America by that route. So I think we need to discuss and deal with the other problems. And addressing those problems would do more than reduce the gun death rates as well.

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:09:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  excellent point, we discussed same at work (13+ / 0-)

    also missing from our national conversation is the death of children who happen to be in countries where we're waging war.

  •  Yes, my thoughts, too (9+ / 0-)

    Although I do think the country was just so appalled at the number of victims and the ages of the children that the reaction would have been similar no matter the colors.

    Maybe the white privilege aspect of it is a good thing, in a bizarre and twisted kind of way. If it can happen in a nice, quiet suburb like Newtown, people are thinking . . . Maybe just maybe this will move the country toward being sensible about the flood of murderous automatic weapons loosed upon the populace.

    We are often so identified with whatever thoughts we may be having that we don’t realize the thoughts are a commentary on reality, and not reality itself. -- Gangaji

    by Mnemosyne on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:19:32 PM PST

    •  Exactly! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geiiga, Mnemosyne, TrueBlueMajority
      Maybe the white privilege aspect of it is a good thing, in a bizarre and twisted kind of way. If it can happen in a nice, quiet suburb like Newtown, people are thinking . .
      I think the shock level would have been the same no matter where it happened. But the fact that it happened in a upper class, suburban, mostly white neighborhood has got to have those folks thinking so many guns just might be a bad thing. I do not think you would see the sustained outcry that has been going on if this had happened in a low income, ethnic part of town. IIRC I heard on the news that the median income of Newtown was 110K/yr. Day of the shooting on MSNBC it seems that I heard more than one talking head say that people they knew on staff lived there.

      if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

      by mrsgoo on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:42:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not supposed to happen here!!! (8+ / 0-)

        More white privilege.  Like it is supposed to happen in the ghetto,  or to poor kids.

        The more I hear, the more I want to move to Canada. Even on a progressive site,  so many white Americans are passively racist, and afraid to look at it.

        It is not supposed to happen. anywhere!!! Being rich and white didn't protect these kids, and that is why America is all freaking out. If this happened in Bedford-Stuyvesant, yes, there would have been media for a few days, but it would NOT have rocked America. Then we would have. Said, "Well, what can you expect, it is a ghetto."

        I am so disgusted.

        My dog is a member of Dogs Against Romney: He rides inside.

        by adigal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:39:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  exactly right mrsgoo (0+ / 0-)

        "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
        Four More Years! How sweet it is!!!

        by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:38:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is a very valid topic and thanks for... (10+ / 0-)

    bringing it up.  As far as I am concerned, being black, being poor, are always the elephants in the room.  This is and has been a timely topic for years.  Let's keep the discussion going.  These are "root" problems.

    "A weed is a plant whose virtues have not yet been discovered." Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by Yo Bubba on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:21:54 PM PST

  •  got a link for your assertion (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ontheleftcoast, mwm341

    that only 6% of murders are gang related?  Is that total murders, or does it hold for murder rates in the black community as well?

    It's hard to find solid numbers that are pertinent to violent crime and race...the topic is so radioactive that nobody wants to do a serious study, nobody wants to fund the research, nobody wants to author that book, and nobody wants to publish it.

    So the discussion seems to turn upon perceptions, in the absence of good data.

    Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

    by Keith930 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:35:21 PM PST

    •  It's from the US Census report on deaths (4+ / 0-)

      in 2008. Total number that were attributed to all gang related killings from 844 (133 adult/733 juvenile) out of 14,299 total. There were 5,000 "unattributed/unknown" causes of gun deaths I don't know any way to figure out what that would do to the percentages. I just reported what was listed as known.

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:56:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've just written my lesson plans on violence (7+ / 0-)

    for the class I'm teaching in the spring, and I agree with you in some ways. But I also think this is, at least in part, a matter of scale, not of race. If someone had walked into a classroom at, say, Fayetteville University (a traditionally black university, and 78% black student population this year) and shot 15 or 20 black students, we'd be just as horrified.

    We don't hear about single shootings of white kids much more than we do of black kids. The problem is, most black kids who die from violence die one at a time, not shot down as a group as has happened at Columbine and Sandy Hook. So the news doesn't make as big of a splash.

    "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:45:02 PM PST

    •  Yeah, but as I've pointed out elsewhere we're (5+ / 0-)

      unlikely to see such a thing happen. The nature of the beast when it comes to spree killings tend to be white on white violence. Gooserock made the point that we did, at least once, as a nation pay attention to an incident of violence against blacks in the church bombings. Sad that it takes a concentration of that scale to get anyone's attention. Odds are pretty good that since I posted this diary two hours ago another person or two was/were murdered with a gun in America.

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:01:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was only three when that happened. But it was (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows, mwm341

        during the beginning of the civil rights movement so people were already paying attention. That had to come across to people as a revenge action against the civil rights movement. Somebody older can maybe speak to the feelings when it happened.

        if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

        by mrsgoo on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:45:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well I was nineteen when Birmingham (6+ / 0-)

          happened, and I can tell you that I saw outrage in the media, but I did not see the same level of outrage from the general public. It was not the topic of conversation that Sandy Hook has been, at least among white people. If you brought it up, people would nod and say yeah that was awful, but IMO it did not permeate the collective consciousness the way that Sandy Hill has. Not even close.

    •  Thanks, KOSC. As I was reading (10+ / 0-)

      comments from top to bottom, I was amazed to find that no one had brought up the fact that had someone walked into a grade school in a black community and started firing an AK47, the death toll of black first graders could have been just as high as that of white first graders at Sandy Hook.  The ratio of white to black on a national scale goes out the window if a large, confined group of 6 & 7 year old black school children are attacked.  

      And, no one can convince me that the majority of people in this country would not be just as horrified and heartbroken as we were at Sandy Hook by such a tragedy.

      The horror was that the victims were primarily children, not WHITE children.

      Live so that when your children think of fairness, caring and integrity, they think of you. H. Jackson Brown, Jr.

      by Ellen Columbo on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:11:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The conversation would be different (15+ / 0-)

        Would most of the country be horrified? Certainly.

        But the reaction would depend on the killer. If the assault were carried out by a black male the MSM would be discussing black culture and analyzing why African-American males are so violent.

        Race was not brought up in the Sandy Hook massacre. However, if the killer was black you know it would have been a major part of the conversation.

        And to be blunt there would be a particular segment of the population who wouldn't be all that upset. We would IMO hear the equivalent of the "knits make lice" comments.

        A proud member of the Professional Left since 1967.

        by slatsg on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:38:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The subject gets convoluted (9+ / 0-)

        I think the diarist's basic thesis about the insensitivity to, and acceptance of the rate of murdered black children is quite correct and something that does suggest a bit of white privilege.

        But perhaps using Sandy Hook as an exemplar of the problem is not the best choice since (a) it's the scale of the incident and fact they were young children that draws attention, not that they were white not black; (b) he scales in the wrong direction to make the case, i.e., on a rate per population basis, a black "Sandy Hook" would require fewer absolute victims.

        Which raises an interesting question: do we already have black Sandy Hooks that go ignored?

        I have also tired to raise the issue of "everyday murder rates" in these discussions because they are actually a greater problem then these statistical outliers that grab our attention.

        IMHO, the fact that occasionally >3 kids get killed and make us feel bad is less of an issue than the hundreds or thousands that get killed and basically ignored.

        So if just Johnny gets shot it's OK but if half his class gets mowed-down it's a problem?  

        Hate to put it that way, but there are more Johnnies and they are all innocent children.

        It's "useful" that these mass-shooting get attention to the issue but we really need to look at the big picture too and spare a little outrage for the anonymous little ones.

        And use these data to change laws.

        What about my Daughter's future?

        by koNko on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:19:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. (4+ / 0-)
        The horror was that the victims were primarily children, not WHITE children.
        I am further sickened by any attempt to make our reaction to the murder of 20 little children and several of their adult protector/teachers about race. I reject such a sick viewpoint, strongly condemn it, and wonder aloud what the diarist will cry Wolf! about next.

        Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

        by davidincleveland on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:24:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't get the horror in discussing it. (11+ / 0-)

          I can't tell you the number of kids who are killed by random drive by shootings here and many times they are inside their homes, in their own yards or just walking down the street.  

          No one seems to be particularly outraged about it.  It is what it is.

        •  You reject accusations of racism (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ontheleftcoast, mallyroyal

          What a surprise.

          You realize that this diary wasn't blaming anyone specifically of being a racist.  There was no finger pointed at you.  But you had to make it about yourself.

          That's called privilege, assuming you're the important one.

          The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:25:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You have NO IDEA what you're talking about... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nada Lemming

            and your attitude toward davidincleveland's post is just as ignorant as ANY post that tries to use this horrific event as a talking point for race.

            Not everything is about race.

            If 20 black children were killed in the way these poor kids were, by a piece of garbage who worshipped guns and fancied himself a "warrior" or whatever he considered himself, they outrage would be equal.

            And not everything on this planet is a talking point. I have a friend who lost a daughter in this event and I cannot even expect you to understand what she's going through and how she has to not only relives the event daily but will eventually find it as a political football thrown around by others who have the gall to speak so easily about it in relation to "race."

            I'm horrified by anyone who's killed. This was not an event like every other, and others like it would get just as much attention. Get a clue.

            "It doesn't matter whether you win or lose. It's how you ladle the gravy." - Felix Ungar

            by Verbalpaintball on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:50:30 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You can claim that the outrage would be equal (0+ / 0-)

              all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

              I'm horrified by anyone who's killed.
              I'm sure you are, but are you really going to claim that you don't have more of a reaction when the people killed are more closely connected to you?  You care about this more because you are more closely connected to this than to the children being killed here where I am in Oakland, even though kids get killed here on a fairly regular basis.  And that's a normal human thing, but to pretend like there's no racial aspect of that is absurd.

              If your white then the chances are that you know more white people, so you'll care about white kids getting killed more than other kids, just statistics.  And if you're white you have more power and money that other folks, statistically speaking again.  That ends up with a systemic effect that makes it so the country does less about and cares less about black kids that die.  It's a fact.

              Saying we can't talk about race because this was a horrible tragedy is just as bad as saying we can't politicize this and talk about gun control.  We need to talk about both of those things, and violent media as well, in my opinion.

              The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:03:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  My wife and I... (19+ / 0-)

    ...made very similar observations pretty much immediately when we heard the news. 'Cause we're rude and stuff.  And never get invited anywhere.  

    When you punch enough holes through steerage, the first-class cabins sink with the rest of the ship.

    by Roddy McCorley on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:51:40 PM PST

  •  Motive (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    Gangland wars or jealous male are intelligible.  The Newtown murderer is a mystery.

  •  You're seeing something I suspect isn't there. (12+ / 0-)

    People went nuts over Elian Gonzalez back in 2000, and he was definitely not a white woman. It was just a dramatic story, and people got sucked into it. Anything like this in any community would have been huge news.

    I understand the frustration. The black community in this country has been trapped in a cycle of poverty and violence for decades. It's a national disgrace. But to say Sandy Hook by itself is proof of white apathy is a mistake.

    You could just as easily argue that since more people have died in vehicle accidents in the past few weeks than in gun violence, that there is some sinister motive for the lack of concern for transportation safety. It's not that, it's just that these numbers get lost in the shuffle.

    Rodney King was just one man who got beaten by the LAPD. His beating wasn't even that bad, by LAPD beating-the-crap-out-of-black-male standards. But people definitely payed attention, and it was a game changing event, for completely random and unpredictable reasons. Sandy Hook was also a game changer, in much the same way.

    Think about it... why wasn't Aurora the game changer for the gun control debate in this country? More victims, certainly lots of white victims, an absolutely sensational, terrifying event... but it was pushed aside and forgotten. Sandy Hook ended being the watershed moment. Why? For lots of reasons and no reason at all. It just was. Hopefully some good will come from it, for poor communities as well as every other.

    You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

    by Eric Stratton on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:57:51 PM PST

    •  Yes, some inicidents that happen to minorities (4+ / 0-)

      get coverage in this country. But woefully few do. And not in real proportions to how often they occur. Look at the comment you made about Rodney King and other black victims of police violence. Where is the press coverage? Where are the news cameras? One story every couple of years doesn't do justice to the problem and I think a big part of it is we don't feel like it's happening to us. Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there but I don't think so.

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:13:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Elian thing was more (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      politicalceci

      Reno and Clinton than it was about Elian, IMO. It's not a comparable situation.

    •  People payed attention to Elian (0+ / 0-)

      because he was being sent to Cuba and people in the US have an irrational hatred of Cuba.  Never mind that he was going to live with his father, as he should.  Can't let those brown folks govern their selves.  And white America didn't much care about Rodney King until there were giant race riots.  I'm sure you remember those.

      And it seems more than just coincidence that a bunch of rich white children getting killed in a suburb of NYC is the watershed moment.  It's just a coincident that watershed moments happen to always affect white people more than other races.  Just a coincidence.

      The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:29:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes and no. (7+ / 0-)

    When the media was breathlessly going on and on about how Newtown is the picture of perfection and all that is tranquil, I turned to mr grover and made a comment that I guess they would be less surprised if there were a mass school shooting in Detroit, even though most school shooters are young white men from middle class upbringings?

    And when it came out very quickly that not only is much of Newtown  highly stockpiled with arms, but the National Shooting Sports Foundation is headquartered there, it really didn't seem to be quite the bucolic little all-American Mayberry that we were led to believe.

    So yes, the MEDIA definitely projected its usual bias.

    But American citizens? I don't think so. I think Americans are much more decent than that, and frankly, I think that they see through most of that crap.

    I don't know of anyone who wasn't very troubled by the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.  And many were extraordinarily upset by the death of Jordan Davis. Yes, that incident got pushed off the front page by the Newtown massacre, but breaking news does that to older news.

    The FL shooting deaths aren't exactly the same, but they are each one young man, and Americans DO care, and quite a lot.

    Frankly, I had a distant family member who was shot and killed. He was white. I don't think there was even a  blurb in the local newspaper.

    The thing is that regular crime doesn't attract much attention these days. People are busy, unaware, or just numb to the drumbeat of non-stop news of never-ending violence.

    But when something that seems particularly wrong happens, they step up with their hearts wide open.  And it doesn't matter what color they, or the victims, are.

    © grover


    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:09:39 PM PST

    •  I have to disagree about Trayvon Martin- (5+ / 0-)

      I don't personally know anyone who wasn't upset about it either, because I make it my business not to know people like that. But the internet was full of people making awful remarks about Trayvon being a thug who was probably up to no good.

      •  Yes, but Gram, post a video on YouTube (0+ / 0-)

        Of a baby sleeping or a puppy playing fetch or heck, just the sun going down on a lovely day, and that certain element that posts horrible things on the Internet will show up.it always does.

        What some people post on the Internet isn't representative of what Americans as a whole think or believe.

        Those people list the nastiest things about our lily white celebrities with just as much vitriol.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:21:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You are SO wrong for that Travon Martin comment (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      politicalceci, AoT, Aquarius40, mwm341

      i guess you were not aware of 50% of the population that turned Travon into a drug thug and the hundred of thousdand of dollars Zimmerman raised to defect the "white man from the black thug"

      •  I'm wrong about my experience? (0+ / 0-)

        Huh.

        What you may have seen is 50% of what is on the Internet. See my comment to GramofSam above. The anonymous Internet is not real America.

        I come from a very conservative town. And I know lots of conservatives across this country, most of them own owners who believe in self-defense but not stalking and killing a kid. And yes, Trayvon was a kid.  

        They were  all horrified.

        Don't tell me I'm "so wrong" about what I experienced.  

        Where did Zimmerman's money come from? Do you know?  Did you stop to think that the bulk of it came from lobby groups and not average Americans?

        After all, Newt Gungrich ran for president with the support of how many people?

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:34:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Zimmerman had a ton of support from around (0+ / 0-)

          the country, and fro tons of conservatives.  I knew a number of people who defended him and I live in the liberal bay area.  It's good to hear about your experiences, but to say that there wasn't a huge attack against Trayvon Martin is just wrong, and it wasn't just lobbyists.

          The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:15:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  just because they say so, does NOT make it (0+ / 0-)

          true. People tell you what you want to hear. Who in their right mind would say that publicly?

  •  Exceptionalism? In health care we pay far more (2+ / 0-)

    for lower quality care than all of our peers, and there is still so much uniformed bragging about our "superiority" in that area.

    For firearms, we simply have most of the guns and most of the gun violence, and we feel (by and large) that we're, somehow making ourselves "safer". Well we in the U.S. are not, none of us, armed or otherwise, safer than our peers elsewhere.

    (And, yes, ending The Drug War, even leaving guns in place, would save far more lives than keeping Prohibition and trying to "get guns off of the streets".)

    There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

    by oldpotsmuggler on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:11:27 PM PST

  •  Weren't the majority of the Auroa victims black? (6+ / 0-)

    I don't see a huge difference in the reaction to that shooting and the one at sandy hook.

    I'm not saying privilege isn't an issue here.  I just have to object to the implication that people would have reacted with less outrage if it had been a school full of black kids.

    The whole "it's not supposed to happen here" idea is soaked in privilege though.
     

    •  This is too funny. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, mallyroyal, Chitown Kev, mwm341

      Reminds me of an incident about 15 years ago when I took a group of about 5 African AMerican youth to give a presentation at an almost all-white suburban school

      There were about 500 people in the room, with the exception of a couple of black students in the audience, the only other black people were on stage.

      During the question and answer period, a 6 year old raised his hand and asked: "Where did all these black people come from?"

      Right. 500 white people. Ten black people, tops. And a six-year old asks "Where did all these black people come from?"

      Is that how we arrive at the conclusion that "the majority of Aurora victims" were black? Because a few of them were?

  •  I agree, and disagree (3+ / 0-)

    There's no question that white lives are valued more in our culture. But I do think there is something about the spectacular nature of mass shootings, and the age of the children, that has really struck a chord this time. (The two "Stand your ground" cases, involving black victims, got LOTs of coverage, because  racism is such a salacious topic.)

    The civil rights, gay rights and women's movements, designed to allow others to reach for power previously grasped only by white men, have made a real difference, and the outlines of 21st century America have emerged. -- Paul West of LA Times

    by LiberalLady on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:34:52 PM PST

  •  In an effort to try not to go sideways (9+ / 0-)

    A large movement to keep Sandy Hook on the public mind is beginning. And I don't think it would have been different if the children and teachers murdered were mostly black instead of mostly white. It's the plane crash effect. Car accidents kill a lot of people every day but we tend to notice transportation deaths when they come in large numbers at once.

    Nobody notices race in those instances, and when we're trying to reduce plane crashes, nobody brings up the deaths caused by our undeclared wars.

    I'm asking for focus. Let's make sure large numbers of children in this country can't be massacred within a minute by a rogue gun nut in a school, a mall, a movie theater, a bowling alley, a circus, an amusement park, a playground, a skating rink, or anywhere else they might congregate.

    The machine guns (yes, I'm going to go ahead and disrespect gun nut terminology, since they and their tools of destruction don't deserve any credence, hell, let's just call their devices childkiller weapons.) we will outlaw don't care about race.

  •  Car accidents that kill 10 people make the news. (9+ / 0-)

    Car accidents that kill 1 person rarely make the news.

    Perhaps this is a consequence of privilege, but I think there's a rather obvious alternate explanation.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:48:53 PM PST

  •  This was about numbers: (15+ / 0-)

    The number and ages of the victims.

    In this case I don't think color made a difference.

  •  There was a genuine reaction (8+ / 0-)

    to the fact of twenty babies being killed.  But there was something about the bathos that followed that put me in mind of missing white woman syndrome.

    Light is seen through a small hole.

    by houyhnhnm on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:10:12 PM PST

    •  I think so. (0+ / 0-)

      But at least in this case it's working for something. While the GUNS! crowd is trying to put blame on video games and rap music and violent movies and drugs and abortion and pulp novels and anything but guns; the rest of the country appears to have had enough of their shit.

      I think if they weren't white and they weren't kids, I'd be spending a lot more time explaining the game mechanics of Mass Effect on political blogs.

      "All things are true. Even false things. Don't ask me, man, I didn't do it." -Mitt Romney

      by Geiiga on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 10:16:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A lot of that is black on black violence. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Derfel, filthyLiberalDOTcom

    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

    by jfern on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:12:40 PM PST

    •  which doesn't make the children any less (8+ / 0-)

      dead, does it?

      •  No but it IS a fact pertinent to this topic, like (0+ / 0-)

        it or not, and sweeping that fact under the rug - or attempting to shut down the poster - is ONE OF THE REASONS THE ISSUE ISN'T BEING FIXED. It is perfectly appropriate mentioning this FACT.  From your comments i get that you really hate that fact, but it will not go away and has to be addressed.

        Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

        by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:24:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  and actually, it is precisely this argument (12+ / 0-)
      a lot of that is black on black violence
      is the best evidence there is to SUPPORT what the diarist is saying. Because what this says is that, as long as it's just blacks killing other blacks, no one gives a fuck. Because, well, it's just "those people" in "their communities."

      The solution to that problem is simple for "the rest of us": just stay out of those communities, and you will be safe.

      We, as a society, seem to be perfectly content to live with the steady drip-drip-drip of death by gun violence as long as it's "contained", as long as it's "over there" in "those" places where "white men fear to tread."

      Right.

      •  "no one gives a fuck" that is NOT what was (0+ / 0-)

        said.

        Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

        by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:09:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But that is what a black person like myself (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          grumpelstillchen

          hears.

          And it also is an accurate description of what the local and even national media in this country seems to think.

          Mind you, I live out here with the liberal white folk and they very very rarely discuss the violence taking place only a 1/2 hour -el ride away.

          •  That may be true. But you should avoid putting (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mwm341

            words in other peoples mouths or you will shortly choke them into non-response mode. Unless, of course, that is the intent. Is it?

            IS IT?

            I would like to think NO, but DK often surprises me when racial topics crop up.

            Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

            by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:38:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I didn't say "*you* don't give a fuck" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              I said "no one gives a fuck"--"no one" being the generic subject  in an idiomatic turn of phrase to describe a general sense of indifference among the American public and/or media.

              Maybe it would have been clearer if I'd said "nobody gives a shit"?, hoping someone out there would get a chuckle out of it ;-)

              I was not trying to put words in your mouth anyone else's, and am sorry if that's how it sounded to you. And my intent is not to choke anyone into non-response mode. But I also don't have  any interest in discussing or defending Michael Moore's argument--its his argument, not mine. I put it out there as "food for thought."

    •  And the difference is what, exactly? (5+ / 0-)

      President Barack Obama. Good man in a storm.

      by mwm341 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:34:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wow (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT

      You really said that.  And somebody rec'd you up.

      On the chance you read the response comments, take a long time and reflect on why that is a truly fucked up, deeply racist thing to have said.   Don't think in terms of the things people said back.  Just play those words over in your mind.  

      ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

      by jessical on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:00:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Facts ARE NOT RACIST. Even if they (0+ / 0-)

        go against your agenda.

        Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

        by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:10:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yes - it is a fact that many black children (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jessical

          are killed by black people.  But please help me understand what that FACT has to do with how the media and societal response to killing of black and brown children differs from the response to the killing of white children.   I am not trying to incite - I am trying to understand what appears to be your conclusion.  Thanks in advance for your response.

          •  First of all, I did not offer any conclusion. (0+ / 0-)

            If you read that you are mistaken. If I implied a conclusion, then I apologize.

            It's a fact. Uncomfortable as it may be, it BELONGS in this conversation if you want to discuss the huge disparity in numbers of young black men being murdered AND discuss anything to do with "whiteness" in the USA. And stop kidding yourself - this conversation is far more open ended than you indicate.

            Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

            by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:37:17 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  thanks - not sure I completely understand your (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jessical

              response though - if you mean by open ended, that there is more discussion about the killing of black and brown children that I am acknowledging, I did not mean to indicate that there is no discussion.  I guess my point is that if black and brown lives are valued in the same way that white lives are valued, why does it matter how those lives are taken?  Why does it matter where or by whom the lives of children are taken IF all children are equal?  If we don't have to care about black children who are killed by black people, well then....my conclusion is that we (America collectively) do not care in the same way.  If you are also saying that black-on-black crime belongs in the conversation, I'd say that if we are discussing METHODS for eradication of this scourge, then yes we must look at causes in order to figure out solutions.  But if you are talking about the will of Americans and the American political system to address the death of children, I'll stick with my original premise that HOW these children are killed should not affect their value to society.  

            •  Implicit in your comment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CrissieP

              ...and I don't think I would be alone in reading it this way...is that the media coverage that emphasizes and recognizes the deaths of the white and privileged and ignores the deaths of the black and poor just makes sense, because, well, the people doing the shooting of black poor people are black and poor themselves.  Since the diary was in large part (as I read it) about media emphasis and what we choose to notice (and not notice), your comment was appalling.

              If your point was just that most black people are shot by black people, and that we should talk about this...perhaps.  My agenda, such as it is, would argue that violence is most frequently visited on those closest to us, and we live in a largely segregated society.  And that the poor and disenfranchised in every time and place have most frequently turned on each other.  Perhaps there is something useful to add to this, but I am left with the uncomfortable feeling that you think there is some special moral lesson that the poor and disenfranchised need to take to heart, and if they simply did so they would be less violent, and more worthy of notice.  This too is a very old argument, oft made, though perhaps you might not care for the company.

              Perhaps you think that selecting something as a fact, and presenting nothing before or after, frees you of responsibility for what is implied, or makes your statement somehow more labile and plastic in the aftermath.   This has never worked especially well for me, but perhaps you will have better luck.

              ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

              by jessical on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:15:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Go ahead an vent your fury and HR me, but (0+ / 0-)

      black-on-black murders won't be solved by yelling at white men. It will be solved by good  men doing things like this.
      http://www.theatlantic.com/...

      Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

      by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:13:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who's yelling at the white man (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mallyroyal

        about black on black murders?

        You don't need to tell black people that the white man really doesn't care about that except when they need a moral billy club

      •  I'm considering doing exactly that. (0+ / 0-)

        President Barack Obama. Good man in a storm.

        by mwm341 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:21:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  that is a very good link. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        much more interesting to me than parsing Michael Moore's argument.

        Thanks for the link, and I hope others will follow it.
        Ta-Nehisi Coates,Why Don't Black People Protest Black on Black violence?

        As Shanikka pointed out elsewhere in this thread,

        a separate discussion of the issue of Black on Black violence needs to take place, outside of the comparative context that it is always brought up in.  
        There are a lot of black men (perhaps even more black women?) working furiously and fervently to stem the tide of violence in Black communities by addressing its root causes. THey should be commended, their work should be promoted, and supported.

        So maybe one thing the Dkos community could do would be to identify people and projects worth supporting, with funds, consulting, grantwriting, networking, or just plain getting the word out about who is doing what and where.

        Citing Coates above...

        And then there are pundits who write more than they read, and talk more than they listen, and prefer an easy creationism to a Google search.
        We should ask ourselves whether we are not guilty of the same.

        From Geoffrey Canada...to ...geez....I was going to try and start a list of black men who are somehow engaged in stopping the gun violence that is killing off generations of young people....but honestly, I wouldn't know where to begin every black man I know(living and dead!) is somehow engaged in this process, some more actively than others, some more effectively than others, or more "sensationally", with more publicity, but, truly I cannot think of a single Black man who is not somehow engaged with this issue.

        Talking about black men who are working on this issue--often on limited budgets, as volunteers, directly, indirectly. What.Ever.--that would be interesting and productive, especially if it resulted in resources being directed to these people and projects. If nothing else, some simple recognition that the work they are doing matters and is appreciated! Damn.

        This has the added benefit of countering the negative images  and perceptions of black men as fillinthefuckingblank species of blackness"evil".  

        So I'll just start with one of my favorites, who addresses the issue from a literary perspective

        There are many more examples, as we see from Coates' piece alone.

        So maybe folks should get to googling, huh?

  •  The national and global reaction would be the same (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mariken, mwm341

    except the ugly and senseless vitriol we hear against any forms of gun control would also have a racist tinge coming from some quarters - and they were never on our side anyway.  

  •  I think you're missing the significance of locale (7+ / 0-)

    It's not the "missing white woman" thing. Not at all. 26 toddlers get shot anywhere in the US and it's a very big deal.

    It has nothing to do with race, or even economics...except maybe one thing: The shooters in these mass killings are always young white guys. Also, with Littleton, CO and Newtown, CT, you're talking about very well-to-do suburbs. I think there are some white kids who grow up in these high-achieving pressure-cookers and something goes wrong. Mix in the gun culture, and the availability of the guns, and the financial wherewithal to buy the guns and the ammo...and you've got a lethal mix.

    If you're looking at media coverage, you're missing the real lesson here about race and economics.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:24:42 PM PST

    •  Yeah, it really makes you wonder that all these (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WheninRome

      mass incidents are young white males.

      I think there are some white kids who grow up in these high-achieving pressure-cookers and something goes wrong. Mix in the gun culture, and the availability of the guns, and the financial wherewithal to buy the guns and the ammo...and you've got a lethal mix.
      And it seems to be coming out that Newtown had quite the gun culture going on behind it's manicured front lawns and palatial houses.

      if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

      by mrsgoo on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:53:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Glad for this post and the conversation (11+ / 0-)

    because I have been thinking a lot about the same thing from here in Stockton, CA.  Murder capitol for 2012.

    The Federal, State, and local government have failed our young poor families in this community.  So have our affluent aging white business leaders.  We have lost so many kids to gangs, jail, gang violence, and bad choices it's heart breaking.

    I do think that mass shootings, which take out large numbers of people, have more of an impact on our collective psyche because we as a culture are immune to the two murders here, the three murders there on a given evening -- which is really problematic in itself.  It is also worth pointing out that more mass shootings seem to be carried out by troubled white folks, but maybe that's simply because they have more money and thus access to more powerful weapons.

    But like the church bombing that harmed those little African America girls so many years ago,  this event is just as disturbing to most Americans.  We hold the "ideal" of childhood as sacred.  Not that our policies reflect making that ideal a reality, but collectively, those are our cultural priorities.  Events like these shatter that ideal.

    As a mom to a ten-year-old who attends a wonderful school in the center of the Stockton gang zone (and yes we attend by choice at it's one of the best schools in the United States, high Newsweek ranking etc.), my nerves have been shot since the Newton event.  We are vulnerable because of where we live.  My daughter's friends are vulnerable to a gun attack -- be it on the streets or from a mass shooting.  

    Yet, we are not in a position to leave, and we don't want to leave.  Our family is here, our work is here, and contributions to the greater world need to happen in this community.

    One of my neighbors, who has four children, survived the Cleavland School shooting here in Stockton, and it has an impact on who he is as an adult and how he copes.

    We need gun control, buy back programs, mental health services and screening, and economic opportunity if anything is going to change.

    "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

    by Going the Distance on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:52:33 PM PST

    •  Amen! (5+ / 0-)
      We need gun control, buy back programs, mental health services and screening, and economic opportunity if anything is going to change.
      When the true numbers came out of Newtown - the numbers were horrifying by themselves, but then you couple that with the realization that they were just little babies - your heart breaks. I was a mess that day and I do not even have kids. Had to go to town the day of the shooting and when PBO began speaking (KCBS carried live); I was driving and almost had to pull over. As I have commented before, a couple of days before Christmas I was in line at Kmart and this little girl was "helping" load bags into daddys cart ahead of me. I damn near broke down in tears thinking about those poor babies in CT. I really do hope that this tragedy changes things.

      if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

      by mrsgoo on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:07:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If a young, heavily armed, mentally ill black man, (5+ / 0-)

    living in an upscale town of 28,000, walked into the local elementary school and killed 20 children, 6 teachers, and himself; and later I found out he'd killed his mother, who provided him the guns and ammunition and cooperated in his firearms training; I think I would feel just as heartbroken and furious and wondering as I do right now.

    I think that, as happened the Sunday after the massacre when my minister called all the little kids in my church up for the Children's Moment and I saw all those soft little faces and vulnerable little bodies gathered together in one spot, I would have a very hard time not breaking down and crying my heart out.

    YES WE DID -- AGAIN. FOUR MORE YEARS.

    by raincrow on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:07:14 PM PST

  •  Counterweight. (5+ / 0-)

    The public reaction to Sandy Hook was partially a response to the youth of the victims, and the fact that so many young people were killed all at once. Their gunshot bodies piled up in the corner of a classroom, where adults and kids alike had to be instructed to shut their eyes as they passed they doorway.

    While I agree with your thesis in the abstract, it's also important to note that the media, being what it is, will treat 20 deaths all at once as a bigger deal than 20 deaths disbursed throughout the country. That part is more race-blind than more generalized violence.

    But this tendency of the media devalues deaths of older kids spread geographically. I hope that someday this tendency is overcome.

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:07:43 PM PST

  •  Watch these videos, laugh and... (5+ / 0-)

    pass them along. Not much we can actually do about people's prejudices, but we can advocate for higher taxes on the wealthy so we can provide better services to the less fortunate.

     

    There will always be someone gauging you with a tolerance meter. Deeming you acceptable or evil. They're the best to offend.

    by jbou on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:22:06 PM PST

  •  More black men need Concealed Carry Licenses (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mwm341, hmi, AoT, Anne was here

    Let's face it, the majority of African American Men are law abiding, good people.   But murder is the highest in the African American Male community.

    The NRA has spun me around.

    Every African American Man should be grabbing a Concealed Carry permit and grabbing an AR-15.   And joining the NRA.

    I'm sure they will welcome a few million new members.  With open arms.  Because it fits their image and message absolutely.

    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

    by Chris Reeves on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:41:25 PM PST

    •  Others were saying this first (0+ / 0-)

      but what you describe is the best way to get the GOP to support gun control.

      The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:24:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Trayvon Martin's murder (4+ / 0-)

    has gotten a fair amount of outrage. Our very white town in California had a big vigil, and lots of public outcry, whereas no vigil for CT slayings. Just sayin'. I doubt that a comparable slaying in a black school would have received less coverage or concern.

    White privilege is damn real and the human atrocities of poverty and blue-on-black violence (including massive disproportionate incarceration) are undeniable.

    But I'm not as sure this direct comparison you've made reduces quite as easily.

    If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

    by rhetoricus on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 10:12:05 PM PST

    •  Yes, but only after a lot of focus was put on by (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rhetoricus

      Sharpton and others.  Otherwise it would have just been a local story.  I was in FL when it happened and there was no outrage (other than in the Black community).

      Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

      by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 05:09:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It was first-graders blown to bits... (9+ / 0-)

    ...hit multiple times, like 5-10 times each, with a high-powered rifle, making many of them unrecognizable.

    So no, this isn't about "white privilege." It was about a whole bunch of little children being torn to pieces right before Christmas.

    Murders of high-school students and killings of adults in ones and twos do not hold the same horror as the mass murders of small children.

    Twelve people were killed and 59 wounded in the Aurora movie theater. They were mostly white, too. And as horrifying as it was, it did not have the effect that killing small children did.

    Thirty-two people were murdered at Virginia Tech. That didn't cause the same outcry. That didn't bring a president to tears.

    So no, Sandy Hook does not have to be viewed through the lens of "white privilege" and I find this diary appalling.

    •  Additionally, the myth that our children or anyone (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      expatjourno

      in our society is safe has been shattered.  If someone can use a machine gun to blast his way into a locked school and kill so many, so young, so easily, then no one is safe anywhere.  That's why this story hits a nerve.

      •  Do you know any six- or seven-year-olds? (0+ / 0-)

        I agree with you about the shattering of that myth, but do you know any six- or seven-year-olds?

        Children that age (and younger) are so perfect, so innocent, so loving, so open-hearted and so trusting -- some of them still believe in Santa Claus.

        I have a child the same age as the children whose bullet-ridden bodies lay in that classroom. I know what those victims were like and what their parents lost.

        •  I know 6 & 7 yr. olds, I have an 11 yr. old and a (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          expatjourno, Anne was here

          20 yr. old daughter with autism and intellectual disability.  My 11 yr. old had to sleep with me for 3 nights before she could fall asleep alone again.  She shouldn't have to know that something like what happened in Newtown could happen to her because she goes to school.  My 20 yr. old doesn't communicate well and is the most trusting soul I know.  Every time I allow her out the door I hold my breath and pray that she is safe.  School was one of the places I felt she was safe when she wasn't in my sight.  

          I live in CT.  My trust and any illusion that my kids are safe has been shattered.  A few days after the shooting 4 fire trucks and an ambulance raced by my house with lights and sirens on.  I had to talk myself down from thinking the worst.

          No innocent life should be so brutally extinguished.  The ripple effects from this tragedy are enormous and long lasting.  

          We are experiencing home grown terrorism in this country and we are destroying ourselves from within.  Americans need to take a good long look in the mirror and make some big changes.

          You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing which you think you cannot do. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

          by Foundmyvoice on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:50:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Great comment. I feel for you. (0+ / 0-)

            We were able to keep this away from our seven-year old. It must be very difficult to be so close to the scene.

            •  It is. Living in a very Blue CT, I mistakenly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              expatjourno

              felt safer due to the laws on the books.  When tragedies like this happen, it shakes your whole worldview about the things you trust or tade for granted.

              I'm glad your 7 yr old can hold onto childhood and innocence a little longer.

              We have to make every day count and show those we love how much they mean to us.

              Thanks for the conversation.

              You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing which you think you cannot do. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

              by Foundmyvoice on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:15:30 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  while I don't doubt your emotion, and share it: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      labouchet
      So no, Sandy Hook does not have to be viewed through the lens of "white privilege" and I find this diary appalling.
      what does "have to" mean in this context?  it strikes me that you're fortunate not to "have to" view ANYTHING through the prism of race, and American white privilege, especially. (I'm taking an educated guess here, assuming that your handle actually has some meaning)

      This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

      by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:15:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Death toll of 9-11 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MaikeH

    was about three weeks worth of traffic fatalities that year. I think it has more to do with the high profile of mass murder than the race of the victims.

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 11:00:03 PM PST

  •  Another "only-a-matter-of-time moment." (4+ / 0-)

    No matter which side I look at this issue from, there's always got to be someone tossing a divide-and-conquer issue into the works.  For the record:  I do not give a frig-fragged rat's posterior about the age, the gender, the race, the ethnicity, the sexual orientation, or even the planet-of-birth issue.  People died.  They died violently and needlessly.  There are people who, because of their wallets, do not want us to discuss various means by which we can prevent this from happening again.  Period.

    Age.  Race.  What card plays next: Transgendered unemployed Lutheran Martians?

    I count even the single grain of sand to be a higher life-form than the likes of Sarah Palin and her odious ilk.

    by Liberal Panzer on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 11:00:58 PM PST

  •  I don't ordinarily (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chrisfs, lulusbackintown

    write comments like this, but this diary is pure assholery.  20 children below the age of ten are dead.  ~40 parents sent their kids to school that day in confidence they were safe and would come home.  Some snapped at them formdragging their feet.  Others forgot to tell them they were loved.  They were left with the smell of sheets and clothing of children that will never return.  They were left with holiday presents in the closet that will never be open.  The most important thing, that little voice they heard every morning and every afternoon was ripped from them.  To try to make this some conspiracy about race is horrific and you should be ashamed.

    •  The only thing I'm ashamed about is we're focusing (10+ / 0-)

      on less then 1% of the gun deaths to the exclusion of all else. Minorities aren't getting killed in incidents like Columbine, Aurora, or Sandy Hook and yet they're dying by guns at 6 times the rate of whites. And in all the discussion of gun deaths in the last few weks we have heard nary a peep about the third world like murder rates of blacks in this country. Did you see that number? 40 in 100,000. That makes war zones look safe in comparison. We're all focused on spree-killers, 30 round magazines, and assault rifles. Yes, those are terrible things, and while we do that how many other relative Sandy Hooks have gone unnoticed? Gun violence tears thru the black and minority communities in America every single day and it's not front page news ever. One horrible day in Connecticut and we can't stop talking about it for weeks. Decades of horrible gun death rates, an epidemic rate of death, and crickets. That should cause people to feel ashamed.

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 11:50:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You have presented real data (9+ / 0-)

        and discussed a real issue. Thank you.

        Those who should be ashamed are those who are content to simply emote as a wholesale substitute for any critical reasoning.

        Those who don't give a "frick-frack" about relevant correlating factors underlying different types of gun violence are no different than the anti-science illiterati who deny climate change because it ill suits their beliefs and ideologies.  

        And perhaps ironically, in this type of response your essential point about the blindness of privilege would seem to be confirmed.

        The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

        by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:23:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I didn't expect to change a lot of minds (5+ / 0-)

          or even open a lot of eyes. As I said, I didn't want to write this diary. Goodness knows I'm not the best at talking about this issue. But it has to be talked about. Hopefully better folks than I will continue the discussion. I can't help looking at the problem numerically and seeing the social impacts. If we stop to think about it on that horrible day in December the death rate from guns in white America quadrupled from about 10 to about 40. To match that same level on an average day in America the black gun death rate would have to fall from 10 to about 7. On any day of the year, on average, the black community in this country suffers the equivalent of a Sandy Hook. And nearly every single day they do so in silence. And I can't choose to ignore that. Not anymore.

          To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

          by ontheleftcoast on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:34:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I commend you (8+ / 0-)

            for raising this essential issue ... that is as uncomfortable as it is true.

            I've just finished reading through all the comments and you have also been very gracious in dealing with those who not only disagree, but do so with unnecessary rudeness and vitriol.

            Several have also rejected your thesis on the grounds of scale of a single incident that transcends all other factors, but provide nothing more than a belief that this is so.  Moreover, you provide an entirely valid point of comparison of scale of black homicide deaths relative to whites  -- that is publicly ignored -- which is simply brushed away because the aggregate impact is supposedly not as horrifying or accessible to the public as the Newtown tragedy.  

            Others refute your thesis by citing public reaction to a bombing event -- not gun violence -- that occurred nearly 50 years ago.  One would think a more analogous and contemporary example could be used to support public outrage against black homicide rates.  And, those who use this example have apparently forgotten that the FBI and Justice Department at that time declined to prosecute the identified offenders, which enabled and prolonged the power of white privilege.

            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:11:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  If so, make white privilege work for everyone. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OleHippieChick, MaikeH

    If that's so, make white privilege work for everyone by pushing for better gun control.

    White privilege doesn't end when society is as oblivious to white deaths and it is to black deaths.  It ends when we recognize that all deaths are important regardless of ethnicity.

  •  Uh oh (8+ / 0-)

    You dared bring up white privilege on DKos. You're pretty brave. I personally agree with you, and I am finding all the outrage from a lot of white people in this diary kind of amusing in a schadenfreude kind of way. Fact is, if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to be outraged about. People tend to only get outraged when you've hit a nerve. I also find it amusing that all the people outraged don't actually mention the fact that your numbers show what a damn nightmare it is to be a black male in America.

    Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

    by moviemeister76 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:19:56 AM PST

  •  Thank you very much for this diary. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mwm341, ontheleftcoast

    Although, my heart aches over what happened in Connecticut, the topic of your diary is still prominent in my anguish over the state of gun violence in this country.  It is hard to have a conversation about firearms in this country without thinking that race pretty much dictates the attention to national topics in this country.  When talking about this matter, we cannot forget that people of color are part and parcel regarding this matter too.

     It also can't be ignored how much the media sought to "humanize" shooters such as James Holmes and Adam Lanza by quickly attaching mental health issues as family problems in explanation of why their brutal acts of violence were done.  Sadly, such attempts to make white spree killers more sympathetic says more about white privilege than anything else.

    The most important thing to be stressed is that victims, regardless of their color, suffer the same and have families who hurt over such tragedies.  And until there is a more diverse multi-cultural press, privilege will still play a part in setting the national agenda.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

    by politicalceci on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:40:40 AM PST

  •  If it draws attention to the issue.. (5+ / 0-)

    ..then white focus will finally have a positive side.

    When extra-terrestrial beings make their first appearance on our planet, and ask for representatives of our species to best exemplify humanity, I'm sending a nurse, a librarian, and a firefighter.

    by Wayward Son on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:15:19 AM PST

  •  We need to fight Poverty (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ontheleftcoast

    And we need to fight the stochastic poverty of empathy and spirit that people like Limbaugh project into the world.

    We need FDR's Second Bill of Rights to make this a saner and happier country.

    To Goldman Sachs in according to their desires, From us in accordance with the IRS.

    by Bluehawk on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:24:06 AM PST

  •  Missing White Woman Syndrome REALLY kicks in... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    politicalceci

    if you try messing with white people's money!

    If you think messing with white kids is bad, try messing with the money!

    Buy Aldus Shrugged : The Antidote to Ayn Rand, and tear Ayn and the GOP new orifices. ALL ROYALTIES BETWEEN NOW AND JANUARY 31, DONATED TO THIS SITE, DAILYKOS!! @floydbluealdus1

    by Floyd Blue on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:25:01 AM PST

  •  If Newtown were Detroit (0+ / 0-)

    The outpouring would be the same - people are people.

    Sorry - I disagree.

    I do agree that far too many children of all colors die needlessly.

    I truly believe that preventing a Newtown is almost impossible - but fighting poverty - teaching the importance of two parent households and getting a good education are all possible.  That combined with reasonable gun control would greatly reduce the overall number of deaths far more than an Easter egg hunt for a one in a billion psychotic killer.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:54:17 AM PST

  •  All of it is terrible, of course (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ccasas, Nance, Torta, politicalceci, Aquarius40

    I was just wondering why there were so many calls for people to donate money and gifts to Newtown. These people's homes were not destroyed, they didn't loose their livelihoods. Most of the homes in the area looked rather affluent. Now, I read that the people in Newtown want people to stop sending things.  They don't need it. Donations to the inner city of Chicago, or Detroit probably would have been better.

    Using my free speech while I still have it. http://www.ellenofthetenth.blogspot.com/

    by ebgill on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 05:31:40 AM PST

    •  My sister-in-law was all worked up about this, (5+ / 0-)

      over Christmas.  She and my brother (her husband) got into an argument because he sarcastically said "I don't think the kids in that town need another five thousand teddy bears."  She said "well, you hear so much about it on the news and on Facebook, it's all you hear about, and it's so heartbreaking, and so people all want to do SOMETHING, what's so awful about that?"

      Unfortunately my brother is not Mr. Tactful - he said "Maybe they could try doing something without it being dumb and of no value to the people they're doing it for.  Lotta kids in other places have nothing for Christmas at all."  

      It kinda went downhill from there. Pass the egg nog!

  •  I was thinking of the same thing about the (10+ / 0-)

    victims of Hurricane Sandy. Did the AA kids displaced get iPods and stuff when their band equipment was washed away in Katrina? Heck no. (I saw a story about kids in the NE getting iPods and new band instruments after their school was destroyed by Sandy. I yelled at the TV)

    •  thanks, I had to get that out. (3+ / 0-)
    •  FWIW. I read somewhere (sorry don't remember (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mwm341, Nance, politicalceci, CrissieP, AoT

      where), one of the folks in Newtown make a comment about all the gifts that have been pouring in for the children of Newtown. What the person said was, basically, "hey, our kids really don't need all these gifts--we can afford to buy them. So we'll be donating these things to others who need them more.

      Could be that the people who end up acknowledging white privilege and the attendant economic benefits it confers are the ones who've suffered most from this particular tragedy.

      I believe the person also said, "Hey, if you want to express your condolences, how about donating gifts to people who need them more in the NAME of our children?"

      Oh, and yeah, when it comes to making clear the glaring difference between "white tragedies" and "black tragedies", the better "comparative case study" is Katrina vs. Hurricane Sandy, not "Sandy Hook" vs. "everyday" gun violence on every street in every inner city in the country.

    •  Yeah, but the working class and poor whites (0+ / 0-)

      in Far Rockaway now know how the Katrina kids felt.

    •  Nation within a nation... (0+ / 0-)

      I am from Louisiana...  I don't expect anyone to do anything except me...  it is what it is...  the point is well taken and a sad commentary of what we really are as a nation...

      Do you imagine that the facade will still be coving the truth about our country 300 years from now?

  •  Yes, you are an asshole (1+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    filthyLiberalDOTcom
    Hidden by:
    grumpelstillchen, AoT

    And not any less insensitive than the Wayne LaPierre. A tragedy is a tragedy.

    Rather than make this totally offensive comparison, why don't you write a diary about the lives of some of the young black males that have been tragically ended by senseless gunfire?

  •  Michael Moore's take on this also (7+ / 0-)

    addresses some of these issues:

    1. POVERTY. If there's one thing that separates us from the rest of the developed world, it's this. 50 million of our people live in poverty. One in five Americans goes hungry at some point during the year. The majority of those who aren't poor are living from paycheck to paycheck. There's no doubt this creates more crime. Middle class jobs prevent crime and violence. (If you don't believe that, ask yourself this: If your neighbor has a job and is making $50,000/year, what are the chances he's going to break into your home, shoot you and take your TV? Nil.)

    2. FEAR/RACISM. We're an awfully fearful country considering that, unlike most nations, we've never been invaded. (No, 1812 wasn't an invasion. We started it.) Why on earth would we need 300 million guns in our homes? I get why the Russians might be a little spooked (over 20 million of them died in World War II). But what's our excuse? Worried that the Indians from the casino may go on the warpath? Concerned that the Canadians seem to be amassing too many Tim Horton's donut shops on both sides of the border?

    No. It's because too many white people are afraid of black people. Period. The vast majority of the guns in the U.S. are sold to white people who live in the suburbs or the country. When we fantasize about being mugged or home invaded, what's the image of the perpetrator in our heads? Is it the freckled-face kid from down the street -- or is it someone who is, if not black, at least poor?

    I think it would be worth it to a) do our best to eradicate poverty and re-create the middle class we used to have, and b) stop promoting the image of the black man as the boogeyman out to hurt you. Calm down, white people, and put away your guns.

    3. THE "ME" SOCIETY. I think it's the every-man-for-himself ethos of this country that has put us in this mess and I believe it's been our undoing. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps! You're not my problem! This is mine!

    So let's quit going after the "messengers" here. A lot of people are thinking this same thing....and if you are one of the ones who is NOT, then maybe you should ask yourself why you are not among those for whom this is glaringly obvious.
    •  Not so fast (0+ / 0-)

      As everybody knows, crime rates have vastly diminished, first during the Clinton/Bush go-go years, and have stayed down during the current poor economic conditions. This at least suggests that Mr. Moore's association of poverty and crime needs some work. Make that, a lot of work.

      •  great. Why not take that up with Mr. Moore.nt (0+ / 0-)
        •  Happy to take it up w/Moore (0+ / 0-)

          But meantime, you posted his opinion as, presumably, related to the discussion in progress. Or did you just stick it in at random?

          •  yep, and I pulled from his piece the (0+ / 0-)

            relevant points. If you disagree with HIS points, then it's your job to refute them, not mine.

            Much easier to go after an anonymous little someone on a blog than to take on the big bad Mr. Moore, no?

            So have at him.

            •  You're probably a busy guy (0+ / 0-)

              so you may not have noticed that, in fact, I presented a couple of facts that would seem to cast doubt on Mr. Moore's analytical powers. Poverty rate and crime rate would appear to be not-so-dependent phenomenae, let alone clearly linked to minority status. But aside from that, Moore's analysis is simply brilliant. No wonder you chose to post it.

      •  Actually, lead is a large reason for that (0+ / 0-)

        Or more exactly, the lack of lead because it was phased out and then banned.  Increased levels of lead directly correlate with increased violence in a population with a 20 year lag.  There are likely other reasons as well, but that's a big part of the reason for the drop in crime.

        The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:34:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I find this truth to be self-evident. (11+ / 0-)

    I'm also wholly unsuprised by the level of anger in some of the comments.

    I wish I were.

    thanks for the (brave) diary.

    This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

    by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:21:35 AM PST

  •  It's privilege, plain as day. (9+ / 0-)

    It's white privilege, it's US privilege. I mean, look at 9-11. Before that, people had been bombed in their markets and places of worship over and over worldwide. It was a pity, we said, but until it ::gasp:: happened HERE, we paid no notice, we let it slide.
    It also reflects in legislation for the general benefit. Unless someone in a legislator's own family comes down with an underfunded malady, an orphan disease, nothing is done for others with the same problems.
    It's some kind of sick Amer-egocentrism -- not a word, sorry -- where we're in our own private Idahos. If it doesn't happen to us, it doesn't happen. It's so arrogant and selfish.

    I ♥ President Obama. ~ Yes, we did. Again.
    NOW: Hands off SocSec, Medicare and Medicaid. NO Grand Bargain.
    Rich pay a bit more. DoD take a bit less. End war on Afghanistan sooner.

    by OleHippieChick on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:37:44 AM PST

  •  Misguided (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Torta, lulusbackintown

    First of all spree shooting is almost exclusively a by-product of white culture and the victims are overwhelmingly white, even though some spree shooters have exhibited famously racist attitudes and targeted on basis of race.

    Second, these kids were shot in their class room. I can't overemphasize that all parents, be they white, black, Asian, or what-have-you, feel an incredible sense of violation to think that the sanctity of the classroom where they send their kids 5 days a week can be so easily turned into a slaughterhouse.

    So the reaction is sensible and in no way a sign of racial division. That said, apathy toward gun violence in all its forms, including the horrible record of tragic inaction regarding guns in the black community is an ongoing blight, and deserves to be spoken of. I can't countenance, though, the antiseptic and clinical attitude the diary has here adopted given that the deaths of those uniquely vulnerable kids happened less than two weeks ago. Have a heart, will ya?

  •  It's never a good time to talk about it (3+ / 0-)

    so it's never talked about.
    TFB.
    Why is life so cheap in the USofA?

    I ♥ President Obama. ~ Yes, we did. Again.
    NOW: Hands off SocSec, Medicare and Medicaid. NO Grand Bargain.
    Rich pay a bit more. DoD take a bit less. End war on Afghanistan sooner.

    by OleHippieChick on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:47:51 AM PST

  •  Lots of madness in these comments (5+ / 0-)

    You'd have to be blind or dishonest not to see that we value white lives over dark lives in this country. For instance, white people and black people are murdered almost as often in this country. Yet a person who murders a white person is around 4 times more likely to get the death penalty than a person who murders a black person. It's because, unfortunately, we value the life of the white victim more than the life of the black victim.

    You can't tell me this doesn't apply to white children versus black children, although the effect may be different. I look at it as a score system in terms of how we value victim life. And this may explain some of the differences.

    For instance, we perhaps view victims' value in this way:

    White = +10
    Black = +3
    Child = +25
    Victim of Mass Murder = 25

    So yes, the black child murdered in a kindergarten classroom may still get 53 points of "value," while a typical black murder victim only gets 3. This does not mean that there is no difference between how we value the black class of kids and the white class of kids. It's just that the difference is 60 to 53. Just because we add new things to our "value" calculus does not mean that there's no race value deficiency.

    "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

    by Grizzard on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:49:17 AM PST

  •  If it results in change, I am willing to accept it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CrissieP

    I know its horrible to say, and I agree with you 100% on what lens this incident is being viewed.

    But if it gets some conversation on reducing gun violence, especially since not even a few months ago a friend of mine had a shooting outside his home in Chicago, an area that has been rocked with gun violence recently, then I am willing to let people look at it through those rose colored glasses.

    --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

    by idbecrazyif on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:54:35 AM PST

    •  I'm NOT willing to accept it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT

      Even if it DOES result in a conversation. CHANGE  - intelligent, thoughtful change is what's required.

      Conversation I can get in any local bar.

      President Barack Obama. Good man in a storm.

      by mwm341 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:23:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  White privilege is insidious (8+ / 0-)

    Nice white liberals like me don't like to face the reality the diarist has put forward: That the fact that these children were white makes a big difference in media coverage and political impact. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. For a long time, we have turned a collective eye away from the continual loss of African-American people of all ages to gun violence.

    If you are white in this culture and think you're not at all racist, you need to read about white privilege and look for it in yourself. It is almost certainly there. And yes, I am white. I grew up in a racist home and a racist society, and though I do my best to eradicate my racism, it is still there in my unconscious mind. It is my responsibility to be aware of that and take it into account.

    The fact that so many of my white friends do NOT believe this of themselves is a huge part of the problem. How else could people speak of a "post-racial America" with a straight face?

    •  There is no way to know how America (0+ / 0-)

      would have reacted to having 20 Black kids slaughtered.

      I didn't notice the Trayvon Martin killing being shoved under a rug.

      That went front page for weeks.

      And then NRA  hired Allen West to run its "Glocks for Trayvon" program to arm every Black teenage boy in Florida. Goody-goody for them.

      "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

      by bontemps2012 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:21:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agree completely. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      adigal, Aquarius40, AoT, ontheleftcoast, ancblu
      The fact that so many of my white friends do NOT believe this of themselves is a huge part of the problem. How else could people speak of a "post-racial America" with a straight face?
      This is what gets under my skin every time. You can only be blind to discrimination and wrongdoing (aka being "colorblind") when you're not the one experiencing it. And the sad truth is that many supposedly progressive people can't even imagine that's the case.
    •  I've noticed the disparity in coverage for decades (0+ / 0-)

      now. I'm not a "nice" white liberal. I"m just a white liberal. As for the rest of your post - I agree with all the major points.

      Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

      by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:04:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No Racism is the New Racism. (0+ / 0-)

      Just ask Bill Maher.

  •  The reaction to Newtown is about economics (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nance

    and geography, not race.

    Had this shooting happened in northeastern Conn(90+% white), the reaction would likely have been similar to Aurora.  Brian Williams and Scarborough didn't need to look on a map to find Newtown, neither did many VPs' from UBS, Chase, GE, and Pepsi etc....

  •  I must agree with the diarist..... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    politicalceci, ontheleftcoast

    race, white priviledge and economics plays a key role in the reaction to this horrendous mass murder.  The killing of innocent people gets all of our attention at first but how we react to it afterwards determines whether its an "oh well what can we do" attitude.  Someone mentioned how the world was appalled in the 50's when four little innocent black girls were murdered in church.  The difference was white men killed little black girls because they wanted to stop black adults seeking justice and equality.  Whites across the country took notice and said this was wrong and our government did something about injustice and inequality toward blacks.  When there is black on black crime, no one cares afterwards.  When there is white on white crime, even against small innocent children no one cares afterwards (remember the little Amish girls?), when there is a white man who kills folks of all races but mostly white adults, like Aurora or Tucson, the outrage fades fast.  It is mainly due to the fact we have white men who run media and a majority white males running the country in our govenorships, state and federal legislators.   The senseless killing of those six and seven year olds close to Christmas, a time FOR children rocked this country because this was a small mainly white town, with good schools, and good families living what they thought in harmoney away from the "big" city crime and poverty.  White America is seeing for the first time their children are being targetted now and the country must stop gun violence for THEIR kids because if you start killing a bunch of young white kids they will be in a minority sooner rather than later.   The thing is if white men and women as well as the rest of us do not force this congress to ban these weapons and bullets and make it permanate then we will just continue to see more of this no matter what color, race, socio-economic, or town we live in...Big City or Small Town USA....a mass murderer is coming to your town to murder you at the mall, church, grocery shopping, movie theater, gas station, post office, work place or just walking out your front door.l

  •  Not offended by what the diarist wrote, but it (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rusted, Mariken, lulusbackintown

    is a faulty argument and deserves much of the critique it's receiving.  Other commenters have described the problems accurately.

    I hear you (diarist) about white privilege and agree that it is insidious, omnipresent, and true.    But the rhetorical methods you use in attempting to apply it specifically to Sandy Hook, are problematic.

  •  The vast majority of african american (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bigjacbigjacbigjac

    shootings are done by african americans.  I didn't want to have to write that either.  Black on black crime is the real culprit in the african american community, and there are many factors beyond simple poverty that contribute to it.  Inner city blacks are scarcely poorer than some souther white communities.

  •  Awareness is a thing that makes some people (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aquarius40, ontheleftcoast

    very fearful and uncomfortable.  And it makes others strong through that knowledge.  What you (ontheleftcoast) have done here is set before us the the drug of clarity on a matter.  

    Some will react out of their fear and uneasiness, others will have the light bulb go off in their heads.  You did your job and not these two groups have a responsibility.

    The one group has a duty to take this data and processs it and come to a conclusion within the 'big picture', outside of their selfish realm.  Not easy to do for lots of reasons.  And the next group has to keep from just filing away this information and doing nothing.  

    If this information is processed properly they will come to the conclusion that the in this particular matter, the 'spirit of murder' has to be arrested.  

    The group that is angry with you can not see the connection and how the greater affects the latter and visa versa.  

    The biggest hinderance to us being a strong nation is the push by an elite group to keep America as Nations within Nations.  The Trojan horse has already been emptied in the midst of her and this elite group is polarizing these groups to work against the whole...

    Great Job 'on the left coast'

  •  I argee with the diary, this is simply his point (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, ontheleftcoast

    The diary is simply stating the question, why is this covered more that shootings in minority coummunities? There has been so much mass shootings done by white americans against white americans, why aren't Americans numb to it, just as they have become numb to the daily black on black murders?

  •  I Think that "All of the Above" (9+ / 0-)

    May be the closest answer.

    I do not disagree with your thesis that white privilege is a part of the Sandy Hook story.  I think it's a factor in the (for now) relatively serious attempts to have a discussion about increased handgun regulation, to be sure.  I also think it's a key element of the renewed (for the first time in more than 30 years) discussion of mental illness in terms that are accurate; i.e. that we have failed them.  Were Adam Lanza nonwhite nobody would care about his mental illness; as you rightfully point out we'd be discussing yet again all those "Black on Black" murders.  Certainly, despite the many efforts of communities plagued with gun violence to establish reasonable limits on guns and access to guns this past 20 years there has not been a serious national conversation about gun control despite some urban areas being, at times (because the myth is that it is constant and it's just that, a myth) battlegrounds.

    So you are right that white privilege plays a role.

    But I don't know that it is the only reason, or even the primary reason, that the national reaction to Sandy Hook is what it is.  I think that is as much connected to two other things as anything else:  (a) that these were not just children, not just young children, but children which virtually every adult considers babies--and they all died not from a single well-placed shot, but from being literally physically brutalized with wanton, over-the-top, out-of-control shooting from a single shooter, as if they were in a war zone; and (b) by all reports, Sandy Hook did "everything right." There was security at the school. It was an "idyllic community" despite the high percentage of gun ownership. And it mattered not one whit.  IMO, events like that so fundamentally shake the false sense of "control" that we think we have over life, us being All That, and all, that the event grows in psychological magnitude to become almost overwhelming.

    That being said, thank you for writing this diary, which was brave at a minimum.  I'm sorry you're getting such grief for it in the comments--but as far as that goes, welcome to the world of trying to talk about ugly racial truths here at Daily Kos.

  •  Part of the problem is (7+ / 0-)

    that white people are so used to being the "default race", the people for whom no societal examination is necessary that they don't even notice the disparities in quality of television coverage.

  •  I was told I was a racist (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ontheleftcoast

    for advocating gun control .

    White male: 5.4 out of 100,000
    White female: 1.9 out of 100,000
    Black male: 39.7 out of 100,000
    Black female: 6.2 out of 100,000
    I want gun control to lower all these numbers .
    I honestly don't care black or white ,
    I want few or none killed or wounded daily .

    The number of wounded / killed daily in America
    makes us a laughing stock .

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:06:28 AM PST

  •  Last I checked being a parent does have color (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lulusbackintown

    Yes, this is the mechanism for triggering mass political awareness in a majority-white society.

    Clearly, it's worth some attention as it's been highly recommended.

    And I think overall awareness of both ALL shooting fatalities AND the many more near-misses that are stopped by police every day is now in the public light...

    ... because a bunch of 1st graders, who last I checked come in all colors, got slaughtered.

    By another white guy, who seem to have a knack for this sort of thing.

    •  Er, EDIT does NOT have color. (0+ / 0-)
      •  you're wrong about that. (5+ / 0-)
        Last I checked being a parent does [NOT] have color
        there are conversations parents of black children have with their children that parents of white children wouldn't dream of.

        This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

        by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:02:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re: my conversations with my kids (0+ / 0-)

          OK. This ought to be interesting.

          Remind me where I'm amiss, as it's for the kids.

          •  did you ever tell your kids that, when in contact (0+ / 0-)

            with police, they MUST be basically subservient in their demeanor so as not to be shot?

            I don't know any black males who weren't taught exactly that.  I've mentioned this before on here and black kossack after black kossack piped up with their own versions of "the talk."

            This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

            by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:47:45 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did I ever get the talk? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mallyroyal

              Honestly...I didn't get that talk from my Mom and stepdad.

              I did get when I was an adult from other black men though...

              •  I got it thrice lol. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Chitown Kev

                mom sat me down first.  then her dad did.  then I went to MY dad's that summer and got it from him.

                I was 9 but was about to break 6 feet.

                This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

                by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:59:13 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ok, this is going to sound horrible (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mallyroyal

                  Both my parents worked for the city; my Mom was a 911 operator.

                  So we knew cops.

                  But I don't even think that Mom's cop friends gave us the talk.

                  And we had been pulled over by the police before (my brother stole a couple packs of baseball cards out of a drugstore when he was 8 and i was ten...the cops dropped me off at the bowling alley where Mom was and took my Bro to the station...

                  I don't, in that respect, maybe we were like "little white kids".

                •  OK, mallyroyal, here is the correct answer (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mallyroyal

                  There is no way in the world that any cop would be scarier to face than my Mom, lol.

                  So I guess that it wasn't necessary to have THAT talk, hell, the cops would have treated us like perfect little angels compared to what happened when Mom got finished with us (as my brother found out, he didn't really want to leave the police station when Mom went to pick him up...)

            •  No one's saying it's not qualitatively different (0+ / 0-)

              But I was taught from an early age to defer to cops, too.

              Do I worry less about a cop stop (get stopped less, frisked less, put in cuffs less, in back of car less, arrested less, sentenced less, ruined less)?

              Yes.

              And I get that.

              And this has what to do with mass school shootings?

              •  it has to do with your assertion about color and (0+ / 0-)

                parenthood.

                This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

                by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:06:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh good. It's just me. Was worried for a moment... (0+ / 0-)

                  that we were seeing a repeat performace of those several instances (including one a couple of Decembers back) when white privilege furballs started up just ahead of announcements of grand bipartisan bargains that no one liked yet some felt compelled to pre-defend.

                  Glad to know it's just me.

                  I feel much better about the looming debt ceiling and tax code negotiations now.

                  •  keep your paranoid fantasies to yourself. (0+ / 0-)

                    I guess thats my fault for taking your question seriously.

                    This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

                    by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:32:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Re: Tag search is your friend (0+ / 0-)

                      A perusal of "White privilege" tag use is quite informative.

                      Average 3.4 a month since 2006... Standard deviation of 2.6.... filter on months with 6 or more...

                      Month.................Number of WP Diaries
                      May-06...............08
                      July-10...............06
                      August-10..........06
                      December-10.....07 Bush tax cut extension
                      February-11.......09 Wisconsin protests (oh yes...)
                      May-11..............10 First round, Debt ceiling
                      September-11...12 Debt ceiling crisis
                      October-11........06 Budget negotiations
                      December-11.....09 Payroll tax cut compromise
                      April-12..............06 DREAM Act compromise
                      December-12.....06 Tax cuts, fiscal clif, debt ceiling again

                      I think that's going back far enough to make the point.

                      By the way, when was the Great Banning of firebrands? I forget. It's an outlier event and I want to mark it as such...

                      •  having fun? (0+ / 0-)

                        This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

                        by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:06:55 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I actually checked it expecting to eat crow (0+ / 0-)

                          I'm appalled the opportunistic use of an important topic is so consistent.

                          •  I'm suprised that you commit the cliched fallacy (0+ / 0-)

                            of correlation and causation.

                            and here you are commenting to me as if your supposition is a stone fact.

                            I wish I could say that was suprising but logic has long been at a premium on this site.

                            I'm also suprised you find the topic "important."  I'm wondering exactly how it could be addressed so that you were satisfied.

                            This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

                            by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:20:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Fine, mally. You win. You're the smart one. (0+ / 0-)

                            You get the last word.

                            And every possible bad thing you are thinking about me is 100% so.

                            It seems one of our fellow Kossacks has gone AWOL.

                            If it's okay with you, horrible, broken, hateful me will go help try to locate him.

                          •  Are you seriously arguing that there is (0+ / 0-)

                            some sort of conspiracy, or magical accident, to bring up white privilege when people criticize Obama?  Because those numbers don't actually bear that out.

                            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                            by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:44:55 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I wouldn't write a paper on it off one search (0+ / 0-)

                            You'd want to code each month for presence/absence of significant compromise events and build a simple predictive model there.

                            And, as you may be alluding, the social sciences do not lend themselves well to causal modeling, ever. Many human behavioral events are treated as simultaneous for this reason; we can map coincidences much easier.

                            Also, people do the things they do for multiple reasons and change their priorities for doing/not doing/not doing so much of them all the time.

                            Yet coincidence can be informative as a supplement to case studies which DKOS diary and comment history provides in great abundance.

                            ...but what you're after is answering what I think is going on.

                            I think I am right, a deal is about to be announced and no one is going to like it.

                            Yet now that the president has been re-elected the old dynamic may no longer apply. Seriously: don't like the deal? Deal. No one can do anything about it. That'd be my thinking.

                            As for me, I've yet to be inconvenienced personally by any of the compromises and do not expect any of the likely outcomes to impair my quality of life in any way, either.

                            Which is a better case study of white privilege than anything yet discussed. I honestly don't have to worry one bit, unless I choose to do so on behalf of others. I can always walk away.

                            as, per the main point of the diary above, whites could - and did - walk away from caring about so many murders of minorities and minority children in particular. Because they could, and did... and it was never lost on me that Sandy Hook is a potential threat to wider compassion by becoming yet another way whites circle the wagons and focus on 'their' schools. 'Their' kids. Avert their eyes all the more from a problem that's not been news to minorities for many, many years.

                          •  Not so much (0+ / 0-)

                            You've cherry picked data and it's really misleading.  But keep up the good work.

                            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                            by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:11:38 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I presented the outliers and the standard (0+ / 0-)

                            And I just transparently discussed a more rigorous testing.

                            I did not have to do that.

                            If you want the entire list, just ask for it.

                          •  So you aren't saying that people are using (0+ / 0-)

                            discussions of privilege as a hammer, you're just saying...  Something?

                            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                            by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:17:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  re: that data you refuse to ask for (0+ / 0-)

                            Month    Number of WP Diaries
                            March-06    1
                            May-06    8
                            December-06    1
                            January-07    1
                            March-07    1
                            September-07    1
                            November-07    2
                            December-07    3
                            March-08    1
                            April-08    1
                            July-08    1
                            August-08    1
                            September-08    5
                            October-08    3
                            December-08    3
                            February-09    1
                            March-09    1
                            May-09    2
                            June-09    1
                            July-09    5
                            August-09    3
                            September-09    2
                            October-09    4
                            December-09    2
                            March-10    2
                            April-10    1
                            May-10    1
                            July-10    6
                            August-10    6
                            September-10    1
                            December-10    7
                            January-11    3
                            February-11    9
                            March-11    4
                            April-11    2
                            May-11    10
                            June-11    1
                            July-11    2
                            August-11    5
                            September-11    12
                            October-11    6
                            November-11    4
                            December-11    9
                            January-12    1
                            February-12    2
                            March-12    5
                            April-12    6
                            May-12    2
                            June-12    4
                            July-12    3
                            August-12    2
                            September-12    4
                            October-12    4
                            November-12    3
                            December-12    6

                            Work it out. I saved you the step of running the search yourself.

                          •  So you're not saying anything? n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                            by AoT on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:34:39 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Anecdotally I suspected 'use of the hammer' (0+ / 0-)

                            as you put it.

                            A quick perusal of tagged diary data suggests this may be more than anecdotal.

                            Do you want to help set up a rigorous test, or not?

                          •  On further reflection...this just isn't my day. (0+ / 0-)

                            I did not mean to get so wrapped in a sidebar topic that might have been locally interesting a few years ago but has no currency now.

                            And, no, I don't seem to have anything to say about it, after all.

                            Apologies to all...

  •  I agree with you...painful to discuss (7+ / 0-)

    But if this was a group of black kids, or black teens killed, there would not be such an uproar. The other part of this that bothers me is that people say, "This wasn't supposed to happen here," like it is only supposed to happen in poor or black neighborhoods.

     We have so much passive racism in this country, it is ridiculous.

    My dog is a member of Dogs Against Romney: He rides inside.

    by adigal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:24:15 AM PST

  •  Please forebear... (0+ / 0-)

    Nations within a Nation is a damning phenomenom.  Ancient history gives many examples of this.  And in almost every case the Nation tried to keep a lid on the Nations.  

    If the theory of evolution ever made sense it does in the arena of Nations.  Take a people from one nation with all it's psychological, social and the dramatic "cultural" properties and you could end up with a volitile mixture.  Dependent upon the speed of the mix or agitation, attempt at diluting and other factors you some times have to hit the panic alarm and empty the "Lab".  

    True scientific investigation will publish and pronounce the cause and effects.  A scientific community who is directed by a "will" of it's own devoid of the desire of finding and accepting what is true, there will come a point where all the false and erroneous factors will begin to be manifested.  

    How many "concerns" governmental, commercial and otherwise have seen the truth begin to leak out and the walls begin to crack under the pressure chose to go down in flames rather than confessing their faults and trying to affect natural affects that will make the big picture plausible.  

    The alternative...  well think about it or rather look around you...

  •  Struck a nerve (5+ / 0-)

    Your post only struck a nerve...and the reaction you received supported your point. Let's continue to pretend that black males aren't murdered by guns at alarming rates.  Let's pretend that it's only white people who matter and deserve a national dialogue now.   Is anyone ready to discuss the race of the mass shooters in all of the cases for the last 10-15 years.  I believe that if the shooters were black, muslum or terriorist, the conversation would be much different.

  •  This is an important diary. Thank you! n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jessical, ontheleftcoast
  •  449 school-aged children shot in Chicago in 2012 (10+ / 0-)

    I need to type that again for emphasis:

    449 school-aged children shot in Chicago in 2012  63 of them are dead.

    I found this to be unbelievable, but it's true (google it).  Granted, about 100 of these are 18-year olds, but still.  And keep in mind that Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation.  Yet these weapons are bought legally elsewhere (in a nearby Walmart perhaps?) and make their way to Chicago.  

    How often do we hear a specific report about any of the children being killed in Chicago?  The only news we get is about the aggregate number of shootings because the number is so astonishly high.

    Thanks for the diary 'ontheleftcoast'.  It's a tough subject to address, but you hit the right tone.

  •  Had the children in the school been of any other (0+ / 0-)

    race, and actually by the photos, some of them were, the nation would grieve just as much.

    Perhaps the attention is more because it was a school incident vs incidents that are more isolated.

    Still the nation grieved and reacted when Trayvon was shot.

  •  i was trying to explain Sandy Hook (6+ / 0-)

    to someone from another country, who did not understand why this shooting was being reacted to with so much emotion as compared to all the other children who lose their lives to violence every day.

    I told her that some of it was culture driven in that these are the kind of children people expect to be safe.

    They are white middle class children, not poor black or brown children, whom people expect to be accustomed to danger.

    They lived in an "safe" exurb, not a big city or in a dangerous neighborhood where people expect violence.

    So it does have something to do with "innocent" "angelic" white faces in a culture that does not see children of color as innocent or angelic.  "If even these perfect children cannot be kept safe then the world is an awful place!"

    so yeah, I think this diary is on to something.  If a bunch of first graders were shot in an inner city neighborhood populated by people of color, I double dog guarandamntee you that this outburst of national emotion and sympathy would NOT be coming from the media, especially not the conservative entertainment complex.

    For one thing, they would definitely be assigning more blame to the shooter's mother and the culture of the surrounding neighborhood.  Instead I have hardly heard a peep about the gun culture in Sandy Hook and the extremist gun group that is based there.

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
    Four More Years! How sweet it is!!!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:28:07 AM PST

  •  Good diary....a suggestion (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mallyroyal, rosarugosa

    I don't believe that being shot in lesser numbers is as much a priviledge as it is one of those inalienable rights put forth in the constitution.

    I do believe that reactions to different things are just the way it works.  I good example is police brutality.  This happens more to minorities as well but that also makes up the majority of stories covered.  Different things hit chords in different groups and the group is a key part of what drives the story.  

    My suggestion...This is an important subject that should get a closer more detailed look.  When we talk about gun violence in the black community you are talking about a community of nearly 50 million people.  I don't want to go out on a limb here but that number tells me that it is time to look at more than skin color when grouping people.  I am a part of that community yet I don't feel that I have higher chance of getting shot regardless of the stats.

    Instead of grouping the "black community" as a whole it would be nice if they started looking at geography, age groups and things like that.  In order to solve a problem that affects such a low percentage of all populations much less the black population a far more detailed plan will be needed.  

    It seems like they look at these things from too high up when I'd bet that a closer look that involves specific sections of a population would do more good.  

    Not expecting you to do this but if some of the readers have more interest I would just zoom in a little bit.

    Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

    by mim5677 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:28:24 AM PST

  •  The confounding of language at Babel... (0+ / 0-)

    why did this happen is another discussion in and of itself. The fact that it happened means that there was a time that men spoke the same language.  In other words we were not able to hide much from each other.  We were either telling each other the truth or we were lying to each other.  

    Today with all the different means of disseminating information (languages) and the many means of infusing the language with different sub groups or dissimulation.  These groups either add or take from the whole.  

    It works against the whole.  And then we are told of the 2%, 47%, 51% and so many other groups that we can choose to be a part of or be and antagonist against.  

    I am sure that men will never again be of one mind because of the profitability of factions.  The old divide and conquer is continually in use against the whole.

  •  Who exactly is killing all the black men? (0+ / 0-)

    Send conservatives to FilthyLiberal.com for re-education.

    by filthyLiberalDOTcom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:02:38 AM PST

  •  American privilege (0+ / 0-)

    This is from Ron Paul:

    The retiring libertarian lawmaker explained, "Let’s not forget that our own government policies often undermine civil society, cheapen life, and encourage immorality. The president and other government officials denounce school violence, yet still advocate for endless undeclared wars abroad and easy abortion at home. U.S. drone strikes kill thousands, but nobody in America holds vigils or devotes much news coverage to those victims, many of which are children, albeit, of a different color." He added, "Obviously I don’t want to conflate complex issues of foreign policy and war with the Sandy Hook shooting, but it is important to make the broader point that our federal government has zero moral authority to legislate against violence."
    The stuff about abortion does not make sense, other than that he has a good point.

    Mr. President, throw the ring in the fires of mountain of doom and destroy it. --John Stewart, 2010.

    by arnott on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:03:52 AM PST

    •  why does abortion not make sense (0+ / 0-)

      but the war issue makes sense?

      Is it because you support abortion but NOT the war? That's the thing that be amusing me, you are picking and choosing just like the right, and everyone in the world. Oh drone bad but abortion is right, so he makes sense to a certain point.

      •  I should have been clearer (0+ / 0-)

        War issue makes sense, because Obama uses drones to kill innocent people to maintain his macho image and show that he is touch on national security issues. Many people have guns to show that they are tough. The culture of violence starts from the government.

        Mr. President, throw the ring in the fires of mountain of doom and destroy it. --John Stewart, 2010.

        by arnott on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:49:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So, this is all Obama's fault? (0+ / 0-)

          For starters, quoting Ron Paul doesn't lend credence to any sane argument.  Mr. "Let Them Die" doesn't have the moral standing to make any argument, and certainly not here.

          More importantly, what possible interest is there is shutting down Obama's voice in the response to Sandy Hook?  

          It's also incredibly tone deaf - in this diary - to suggest that it's all the black guy's fault.  

  •  Tipped and rec'd (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ontheleftcoast, AdamSelene

    for making a valuable, timely observation.

    After any story about gun violence in the streets where I live (in the Bay Area) we get plenty of huffy whining in the comments by white dittoheads insisting that brown-on-brown violence "doesn't matter." They're all indignant because communities of color only seem to react loudly to violence on a person of color by a white person.

    This diary is a healthy antidote to that brand of misery. Violence is everybody's problem. If you crack a racist joke or make a racist allusion, you are helping to perpetuate the cycle.

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:04:06 AM PST

  •  I find this an unhelpful meditation, really (0+ / 0-)

    We all know that black deaths get next to no media coverage.  Yes, is maddening that the damage being done to black America by gun violence should have moved the debate along many years ago.... and has never done so.

    But that said, 20 kids are dead. They weren't "privileged" in any way.

    They're dead.

    Let's do this without a debate as to whether their lives mattered more or less. Everyone's lives are infinitely precious, and that is the only valid value to esteem anyone's life with. If it takes the Sandy Hook killing to move this along, then let us not pass up the opportunity.

    Rick Perry - the greatest scientist since Galileo!

    by Bobs Telecaster on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:31:50 AM PST

    •  But the reactions to the events in Newtown (0+ / 0-)

      are racially tinged even if people are unaware of it. Maybe not as much from our side of the political spectrum but half the country would be debating how much drugs or gangs contributed to the deaths if that was 20 black children. But even here we don't hear the screams from the minority communities because they are minorities, and in absolute numbers their tragedies are much smaller. But they are, in fact, much greater. That we can be unaware of that is white privilege.

      What's wrong with America? I'll tell you. Everything Romney said was pre-chewed wads of cud from Republicans from the last 30 years and yet he managed thru a combination of racism and selling the (false) hope of riches to get 47% of the national vote.

      by ontheleftcoast on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:11:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  the simple fact that is being ignored is that this (0+ / 0-)

    orb is shrinking at a pace that is almost not comprehensible.  Never before has the events of places foreign and near affected the saneness and peace of this or that place.  

    yet we show no intention of trying to solve the problems in unison.  Is it too late?  Or yet do we want to solve it.  Is our thinkin on the same level as Lanza's, to hell with everyone elses opinion, mine is the only solution regardless of who else is hurt by it.

    It seems as if our politicians have subscribed to the same imagination.  to help us they run us off the road and down a cliff.  how exhilerating having such guardians over our affairs.  Which of us being hired to perform a task could get away with this type of business?

  •  wait, wait, wait (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ontheleftcoast, Pale Jenova


    'though the victims weren't white women' ? they sure as hell were, 7 of the 27 were 'white women'  - so what is the point again?

    "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

    by louisev on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 12:23:58 PM PST

  •  People feel bad because children got killed. (0+ / 0-)

    Black, white, it doesn't matter because they were little kids, and that's why people are so upset.  And don't blame "white privilege" for the focus on Sandy Hook or the focus on anything.  Blame the media machine, they control the stories and their content.  Do you really think the media has the thoughts and minds of the public at heart?  They care about sensationalism and what's the fun in one death whether black, white, Hispanic, or Asian as long as they're poor?  The media cares about rich people who bankroll them and celebrities who get them noticed and mass casualties because they're big stories vs run-of-the-mill single, daily shootings of POOR, NAMELESS, FACELESS people.  That is the bigger issue than white privilege.  And P.S., what about Hispanic or Asian people who get shot?  Are they the least important of all that their killings get NO mention?  Let us be more concerned about classism & elitism, since those seem to be much greater and more poisonous problems.

  •  The "nation's reaction" is NOT = media coverage (0+ / 0-)

    Almost OT but how do you measure the  "nation's reaction" ? I don't believe it can be done by measuring TV/cable coverage more centered on commercial, video, and state of the "art" factors. I'm not disagreeing with your premise, just wonder how interpretations are corrupted or misaligned by a mistakenly heightened sense of value of media production decisions. It's like most of the nation will never go to a movie this year so can movies be analyzed as to what they say about the public?

  •  Sure, cuz if a black school was shot up (0+ / 0-)

    by a mad gunman, murdering two dozen little kids and their teachers, it would barely make the news. (eyeroll).

    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

    by bigtimecynic on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:36:22 PM PST

    •  Of course it would make the news (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, ontheleftcoast, mali muso

      but whites (conservative and liberal alike) would be talking about the problems of the black community. It would be a problem with "those people" that many whites would watch on the zoo bars of the television screen.

      Whereas the problem of gun violence and gun control is (thankfully) getting addressed with Sandy Hook.

      Laws have to be changed, dammit. We can't tolerate our CHILDREN being killed...

      That's the difference

      •  I think people would start talking about (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chitown Kev

        the culture of the people instead of the crime.
        They just would. It is sad, but single mothers would come up.

        •  On second thought, not if it were kids. (0+ / 0-)

          People do tend to rationalize why stuff happens to other people but isn't supposed to happen to them. This happens when other tragedies strike and people say things like "This shouldn't happen in the USA" which sort of implies that it is normal for other people to experience this sort of thing.

          It is horrible when any child dies, even worse when that death is through violence.

  •  Blacks are second class citizens. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ontheleftcoast

    At least according to most white people I know. White people, like most of the "smart" people that post  here have never walked a mile in their shoes but sure do have lots of opinions on what it's like to be black and.

    "It's no measure of health being well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

    by buckshot face on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:16:28 PM PST

  •  ontheleftcoast, thank you for this diary. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ontheleftcoast

    I have thought along the same lines. Lots of good discussion here that I don't have time to peruse.  But I just wanted to let you know that I very much appreciate the point made in this diary. Thank you.

    Often, truth is strange and deceptive; it has to be struggled for, against the flow of the everyday. Ian McEwan, Atonement

    by jaebone on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:20:31 PM PST

  •  It's my fault. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm white. Totally my fault. My bad. I'd fully apologize but I have to go hop on my imaginary yacht en route to the imaginary White Privilege Soiree held in the Statue of Liberty's left boob. I totally control world events and despite the fact that I let Levi Leviowitz grab some credit, I totally control the media.  

    I am posting this from my Reaganphone paid for with my Reaganbucks because Reagan paid my gas and mortgage.  

    •  Tony, you and papercup remind me of the (0+ / 0-)

      white people who were duped into believing that the civil war and reconstruction is the reason you are in the condition you are in and they can't do more for you.  You believe that things would be different if they did not have to fullfil the burden that lincoln laid upon their backs...

      the next 300 years will be fun

      •  During the civil war (0+ / 0-)

        my family was in Poland. They came here after being enslaved by the Nazis. Good luck trying to place American history-based nonsense on me. None of America's follies have anything whatsoever to do with me or mine.

        The next 300 years will not be fun for people like you because your incessant bigoted race politics will become less and less popular. They will be fun for people like me because not only do I not filter things through a racial lens, I laugh off attempts by people like yourself to place me into a stereotype and tell me what I supposedly think.

        I'm white. Big frickin deal. You care more than I do. And that's why you'll lose. Not black people in general. Not minorities in general. You specifically. You are an increasing anachronism. The person who thinks every white guy is Calvin Candie.

        If the burden of Lincoln is measured by the African Americans I've met in my real life, then I want to shake his hand when i get to the gates. I've had overwhelmingly positive experiences. I'll ring MLK when you get there so he can tell you how misguided you've been.

        •  Hmmm...here's a case in point (0+ / 0-)

          of a conversation that we are having on another thread.

          If you don't understand what race/ethnic issues are in the Us than please, just read and listen.

          •  I understand race/ethnic issues. (0+ / 0-)

            And I understand that people like the person I respond to are the problem, every bit as much as the hick yokel with the Obama/watermelon statue.

            I have the benefit of being an outsider. I am neither recognizable as Anglo, any of the broad European nationalities you'd think of, or mainstream Slavic. Polish people say I must be "mountain people", because I am. Because that's what the indigenous group actually translates to.

            The idea that you have the monopoly on being underprivileged, invisible, or mistreated is just asinine. More to the point, you aren't looking for reconciliation. You're looking for a reason why white people can't feel alienated.

            My family were nearly entirely exterminated for not being German. And then they came here to have to navigate the inherent dangers of being an immigrant with little language skills. They cleaned toilets till they made it. That's why I laugh at your Calvin Candy stereotypes and your wanna-be Malcolm X militance.

            It's you that don't understand. You don't understand who the hell you're talking to if you think you can get away with your garden variety BS here. I view you as an equal, with all the good and bad that comes with it. Have a tissue if you have an issue with my skin color.

            •  Hold on (0+ / 0-)
              The idea that you have the monopoly on being underprivileged, invisible, or mistreated is just asinine.
              Where did I ever say that.

              FWIW, I dated an Italian-American a few years back who does not consider himself to be white and really was as unassimilated as he could be (when G. would say "white people" he said it with greater venom than I did).

              He talked, for example, about the rapidly vanishing colorism problem among Italians which has a lot of similarities with colorism as black Americans experience it.

              And just in case you didn't notice, I do happen to live in the city that probably has the larget Polish population outside of Warsaw? There are plenty of ethnic white enclaves in Chicago and I am very aware of their struggles (esp. with some of the eastern European populations formerly from the USSR, Bulgaria, Romania, and the like).

              I'm also aware that some immigrants of your type will be the fastest to call a person of obvious African descent "a nigger."

              •  Hold on? To what? Your resentment? (0+ / 0-)
                Where did I ever say that.
                You heavily implied it when me being white or having an immigrant family became me not understanding ethnic issues.
                FWIW, I dated an Italian-American a few years back
                Is this the "I have a black friend" adapted to Italians?
                I do happen to live in the city that probably has the larget Polish population outside of Warsaw?
                My deepest sympathies for your having to bear Chicago.
                There are plenty of ethnic white enclaves in Chicago and I am very aware of their struggles (esp. with some of the eastern European populations formerly from the USSR, Bulgaria, Romania, and the like).
                I'm not actually Polish. I'm Gorale. It's in Poland. It's technically Polish. It's not unlike Elon Musk is an African American and defintely like calling Romani blithely by whatever country they came from. You being aware that Polish people exist and Eastern Europeans exist and that this is enough just shows that you're the one that doesn't get ethnicity.
                I'm also aware that some immigrants of your type will be the fastest to call a person of obvious African descent "a nigger.
                You didn't even know my type existed till I told you they did. Let alone have you met more than maybe one or two in your life. Which makes your attempt to attach me to things I views I clearly have nothing to do with doubly pathetic.

                Yeah, because no one you know has every called someone a white boy / white trash/ whitey/ cracker etc etc. Guess they must be your "type", right? I should call them your "type". They're from the same continent, right? Similar color, right? Maybe even a similar geographic region. Totally your "type". Nothing wrong with saying that, since clearly it's right to project that onto a person because they're white.

                People who think like you are impotent and never accomplish anything but ensuring your own political marginalization. Obama is seen as a great man particularly because he's not like you. Because he is so damned conciliatory that he managed to turn Rev Wright into a healing moment. You've got much to learn. Doubt you'll learn it but there it is.

                •  hey tony (0+ / 0-)

                  bet you are kind of proud to be a gorale huh...  thats fine but until you realize you are an earthling first you will catch it ...  

                  originally man had one language...  we made disappointed God with our intentions and he gave us gorale and african american.  so every time we give an ethnic designation we are just manifesting God's displeasure wtih us earthlings

            •  All this is crap if it was meant for me... just (0+ / 0-)

              pent up crap you have stored up in you cuz...  Obama and every other POTUS are just figure head.  I could give a crap who is in the office democrat or republican...  they are playing games with the people...  

              you are an "outsider"...  hahahahaahha.  now that is funny

              to be honest I have never really been under priviledged...  my folke always saw life as an opportunity...  I do have some funny stories though that I tell the kids and grandkids that happened to me and were told to me by my parents like my grandfather having to pay for the first parcel of land twice.  Instead of bytching and losing it he gave the wife of the doctor who he worked for what was supposed to be the last payment for 10 acres of land and got a receipt that time.  

              She probably didn't think he would be able to pay for it but he did and ended up buying almost 3 times that in the same area.  You see you know little about me.  You are linking me with people who can be found from poland and the mountain people also.  there are people who play the victim from all people cuz not just American Africans...  

              No cuz if i could be around for the next 3 centuries I would be writing much humor that I see coming from the hearts of men like you who know everything and give little credit to others.  

              I met a genius in California in the 70s, at least that is what people said of him.  I lived in a writers colony for a while and stayed the hell away from him.  He eventually cornered me and the one thing I took away from our conversation is that he felt that since he was the genius it was his job to make himself understood to the lesser.  You might want to knock that chip off your shoulder and take a hint.  

              Sometimes if you are misunderstood, you may have something to do with it.  oh yeah

        •  Tony I bet you are a really smart person... (0+ / 0-)

          Old saying from over in Jamaica, "throw rock in hog pen and one who oinks is guilty"...

          I said you reminded me...  never mentioned Poland did I?  smile!!!  I don't argue history Tony, written history is flavored by the writer...  

          Me spoke in general...  but you make lots of predictions based on something.  I know about as much about you as you do me although this last reply does give me a tenor of your mind set.  

          I won't be around for the next 300, but I am having so much fun presently.  I catch as much flack from blacks as I do from the likes of you.  Because I don't have an agenda.  I don't have a race cuz and yet I am questioned by most.  Take a glance at JARogers SEX and RACE.  You are correct that those who can see the big picture and are stagnated by dna, skin color and culture will suffer much.  

          to get to the point of my post it was that poor white were duped  by the well to do to do just what it being done today, divide and conquer.  The African was perfect, being easy to identify.  Don't have to have a conversation just eyeball him and all you have been told is evoked.  I personally don't give crap what color you are.  I got enough confidence in myself to be able to get pass what ever bull shyt you come with one way or another.  

          I know black people who are not worth pissing on if they were on fire and whites too.  My motto Tony, is this..."it is what it is"

          sorry you oinked...

  •  You're an asshole (0+ / 0-)

    I've been looking at this diary title on the rec list for a couple of days now and I couldn't resist it anymore.

    I can't think of anything else to say that wouldn't get me permabanned from here so I'll just leave now.

    The fact that this diary is on the rec list bodes ill for this site.

  •  Black on black crime... (0+ / 0-)

    I grew up in Louisiana in the 50s and 60s.  During those years police presence in our community was about nil unless a black was accused of a crime against a white or the black 'victim' was a favored black.  

    Retrobution was usually done within the community.  A person wrong got drunk and got even or the family got together and like a flank of impis they went after the perpetrator.  

    So where around the 70s supplemental police pay was tied to crime rates.  This alone brought police presense into the ghetto when the call came in.  

    Not excusing black on black crime...  but it was a way of life and yet has to be shaken...  could the attention given it make a difference I don't know...

    But the fact is doing much of the years that blacks communed together they felt they had to exact their own justice...  Blacks always knew where the line was drawn across the tracks.  It usually stayed in the "bottoms" or "quarters"

  •  I thought about it, too, in white, safe, America (0+ / 0-)

    but any massacre would have hit.  But Conn?  If it could happen there it could happen anywhere.
    But the children really hit a hot button.  The Colorado theatre shooting vics were mosty white, you adults, but they weren't children.

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up !

    by Churchill on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 06:29:47 AM PST

  •  Thank you for writing! (0+ / 0-)

    I thought you were clear.  Just because people complain does not mean that you wrote poorly.  If people took offense, that is their problem.  

    In every imaginable situation, black people suffer more.  And it is not just more being shot as a percentage of the population.  That includes less access to good schools, higher levels of poverty, discrimination in housing and mortgages, discrimination in job interviews, more difficulties in voting, higher percentages in jail, longer jail sentences, poorer access to health care, etc. etc.  

    Systemic racism is still a major problem in this country and you brought up for discussion one more aspect of it.  I appreciate that you did so.  By the way, I am white.  I was sensitized to these issues by my parents and have just kept my eyes open since I became an adult.

  •  Smoking deterence... (0+ / 0-)

    Speaking of black on black Crime...  there is a small village in NW Louisiana just outside of Springhill.  The name of it  is Cullen, but it is called Froggy Bottom by everybody that lives near.  

    I remember a friend of mine from there who played in the NFL was on national TV once as the players were running up to the camera and giving their name and hometown.  John Mendenhall who played for the NYGaints in the 70s and 80s.  John came up and called his name and said from Froggy Bottom, La.  I neh bout fell out.

    Froggy Bottoms was a particularly tough place with some tough people.  My mother warned me as a child to stay out of it on Friday and Saturday nights.  She said that when she was young and use to go there to party that when people were killed by either stabbing, throat slit or shotgun blast that after it was assured that they were deceased they would be covered up and people would go back to what they were doing either gambling or drinking or both...

    but I did not heed my parents and went anyway.  I was about 16 and beginning to try and smoke.  I had a pack of KOOLs sticking up in my shirt pocket standing around in one of the milder "juike joints".  A fellah walked up and asked me for a cigarette.  I handed him the pack and he knocked out three fags and handed them to me.

    I looked at him and asked what the hell and started to square off talking shyt.  My cousin who was pretty tough himself came pretty quickly and bumped into me and pushed me out of the door onto the porch.  He told me to let it go and said that this guy was fresh out of Angola after spending 12 years and was ready to go back.

    I felt as weak as a dish rag and went and sat in the car the rest of the night keeping an eye out for that guy.  He ended up shooting a guy in the gambling shack in the chest with a shotgun a few weekends later and died in Angola years later.

    Smoking was never a passion or desire for me after that...

    Exact deterence to be sure...

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