Skip to main content

I originally posted this as a rather long comment in another thread, and was told by another commenter that I should post it as a standalone diary--which had already crossed my mind, so here I am. I understand people's frustration with how insensitive and stupid some people can be, which has been acutely evident in the wake of the recent Steubenville rape case. Particularly shocking have been the numerous callous statements of insensitivity by the perpetrators and their apologists, many of whom have projected blame on this poor unfortunate woman. I believe that what we've seen that shocks us most is the result of pathological narcissism, a prevalent spectrum of psychological dysfunction that includes Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I feel compelled in this instance to share my own thoughts on this phenomenon so it can be better understood what it is, and what I believe we can and should do about it.  

Men can be narcissistic creatures, more so than women in my clinical experience. Narcissists have a great tendency to be dismissive of other's feelings in deference to their own. And NO demographic group is more narcissistic than young men, from adolescence up until about 30. (I know, I was one of them.) But even narcissists tend to develop relationships with "idealized self-objects", i.e. certain other people to whom they value over and above others in their environment, such as spouses and children. These people are allowed into their circle of narcissistic self-regard.

It is lamentable how prevalent narcissism is not only in this culture, but humanity at large. But no amount of social change is going to get rid of narcissism as a phenomenon--that's wishful thinking to the extreme, one step above achieving world peace. The only way you can get through to sexist/narcissistic lunkheads on this issue is through such memes--to get them to imagine that this unfortunate young lady was somebody they loved. And we NEED to use such exercises in order to change people's hearts, including the lunkheads--if only one instance at a time.  

In my work as a psychiatrist I find every reason to be cynical about humanity--because it's amazing how stubbornly resistant people can be to making changes in their attitudes or lifestyle, even when it is painfully obvious how much their happiness depends on it. But there are also moments when people surprise me, and go through a transformative period of personal growth when I least expect it, even when I've long since given up on them. We use these memes because they work, because they break through people's resistance. Because a sexist/narcissistic asshole of a man can't imagine actually being a woman, but they can usually think of one they adore. It might be the beginning of more substantive change. We don't know until it happens.

We cannot give up on the lunkheads--but neither can we wish them away. We can only try to make them think about things a different way, the best we can. Belle Jar is right in lamenting the state of the world--but this meme is a tool that can be used to change it, one soul at a time.

Originally posted to Making Sense of Psychiatry on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:00 AM PDT.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (127+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Loquatrix, Ian Reifowitz, white blitz, kevin k, chantedor, tardis10, commonmass, musicsleuth, Clem Yeobright, political mutt, Nowhere Man, itskevin, WiseFerret, JanetT in MD, Penny GC, leeleedee, Catte Nappe, WheninRome, jan4insight, LilithGardener, Noddy, uffdalib, nzanne, Alexandra Lynch, kat herder, erratic, Joy of Fishes, Thinking Fella, cassandracarolina, efrenzy, JVolvo, JonBarleycorn, Laurel in CA, LivesInAShoe, serendipityisabitch, GreenMother, Chaddiwicker, meralda, brooklyns finest, karmsy, bsmechanic, nominalize, anodnhajo, 2thanks, belinda ridgewood, DvCM, buckstop, Black Max, alwaysquestion, lgmcp, Lujane, Its a New Day, dotdash2u, Diana in NoVa, dejavu, deben, Noisy Democrat, bekosiluvu, Radiowalla, chimene, Orinoco, KJC MD, Pat K California, thankgodforairamerica, mythatsme, OleHippieChick, TheMeansAreTheEnd, Aaa T Tudeattack, Ted Hitler, also mom of 5, Pariah Dog, exiledfromTN, RiveroftheWest, beaky, athenap, BluejayRN, Cronesense, rubyclaire, Ice Blue, alpaca farmer, where4art, peptabysmal, Linda1961, Otteray Scribe, truthhurtsaz, missLotus, gustynpip, martini, tejanablue, ruleoflaw, lostinamerica, Creosote, Larsstephens, evilstorm, DBunn, Renee, Bryce in Seattle, yoduuuh do or do not, nailbender, anana, walkshills, radical simplicity, snowwoman, virginwoolf, NapaJulie, cspivey, kaliope, MaryinHammondsport, shypuffadder, Gardener in PA, jadt65, david78209, wavpeac, mozartssister, Powered Grace, Mistral Wind, high uintas, fumie, bearian, wasatch, cotterperson, Calamity Jean, Kevskos, bluesheep, blukat, Rhysling, blue91
  •  Exactly that somewhat dehumanizing approach (7+ / 0-)

    to humanizing the victims to the sickos is an uphill battle. For the males what if it were you means nothing. I'm thinking something more along the lines with equating rape to necrophilia and beastiality. That's especially relevant for victims who are "like a dead body". It's pretty well understood that you are truly sick if you do those things.

    •  The thought crossed my mind yesterday... (8+ / 0-)

      Rape and sexual assault is about dominance.  It is about power and control over another person, and means also that the perp has lost power and control over themselves.

      Which makes a perp of rape little better than a dog humping a chair leg.

      I don't mean to trivialize any of this (or insult dogs), but that's the image that came to mind.  

      •  no no no (14+ / 0-)

        I take your point, but rapists, by and large, are not people carried away by their urges, or some irresistable impulse, but fully in control and accountable for their decisions. Especially in this case.

      •  I thought the power/dominance interpretation (12+ / 0-)

        was debunked not long ago, in favor of the simpler interpretation that it's what it looks like:  stolen sex.

        The perps are a bunch of high school jocks.  I'm female but have certainly heard from men of my acquaintance how overwhelming the desire for sex is especially at that age.  The way I see the crime is that they took advantage of an excuse (her being drunk or drugged and unable to say "no") to rationalize, i.e. pretend, that it was now socially acceptable to act on their desires.  

        The social actions they engaged in, sharing video, etc. fit this interpretation in my mind.

        Horny, narcissistic assholes who want what they want and think they can get away with it.

        •  A "rape crew" does not develop in a vacuum (24+ / 0-)

          it is estimated as many as 1 in 4 women in the military endure at least one sexual assault.  The problem is in a testosterone driven culture, whether sports or military, where hyper masculinity is prized and feminine characteristics are derided, it is inevitable that women will be devalued and objectified.
          The question is if these cultures will ever change or will be allowed to persist as a part of the cost of doing business (i.e. winning teams or armies)

        •  Dont think so (20+ / 0-)
          power/dominance interpretation was debunked not long ago, in favor of the simpler interpretation that it's what it looks like:  stolen sex.
          Stolen sex might be an appealing explanation for date rape, or HS jocks raping a HS girl. It doesn't provide any explanation for the rape of middle aged and elderly women, which happens often enough.  

          Yeah, right.

          heard from men of my acquaintance how overwhelming the desire for sex is
          Somehow the vast majority of men (including at that age) manage to control those urges.

          "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

          by Catte Nappe on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:48:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  A slight editing was needed (14+ / 0-)
            heard from men of my acquaintance how overwhelming the desire for sex [to feel dominant] is
            It's why rape of the opponents women is so common in war.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 11:23:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think they're scarily interrelated (4+ / 0-)

              Part of the issue of rape culture is that even consensual sex is read as an expression of dominance, and it prevents people from meaningfully distinguishing the two.  

              •  True some men feel dominant when they can (7+ / 0-)

                prove to other men how easily and how often they can seduce women. And some must keep proving it to themselves all their lives.

                Others, such as the Steubenville crew, attempt to prove dominance within their circle by drugging and raping underage girls. My reading is that what mattered most to them was to be congratulated by their friends for what they got away with.

                "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:52:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Right (7+ / 0-)

                  The means isn't necessarily important in the mindset - charm, force, manipulation, money.  The point is that sex is something to be taken from women, and succeeding proves something about you.

                •  It's much more. (9+ / 0-)

                  In order to survive in a capitalist culture one must have supreme confidence over all obstacles.
                  Corporations are dominated by sociopaths. Coaches of teams behave like sociopaths.
                  It's up to parents to temper those cultural imperatives.
                  Almost all of this is taught.
                  I think most children want to get along and not dominate.

                  I've tried to get responses to statements that people like the Koch's, Peterson's, de Vos', Coors' etc are sociopaths determined to conquer America and destroy democracy (which they see as a weakness).
                  It seems as though any mention that people like Paul Ryan, Rand Paul etc. are sociopaths draws a complete blank. That legislators and billionaires intent on denying food to the hungry, medical care to the sick and willing to send Americans to die for their corporate greed are sociopaths willing to intentionally cause people to die for their profit, all the while smiling.
                  Narcissistic sociopaths are the number one problem in America.  Good, caring people will never be able to keep up w/the destruction to our culture and fabric of society that these sociopaths revel in for the benefit of a few billionaires willing to pay people like McConnell and Ryan and etc.
                  Cure the problem of sociopaths and all problems in America are manageable.  These are predominately republicans who are the sociopaths, but not exclusively, just mostly by far.
                  But that conversation is not gonna happen.

                  "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                  by BrianParker14 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 07:10:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There are at least two reason you may draw a (3+ / 0-)

                    blank.

                    It's a medical term and people throw out medical terms without justification a lot.

                    Labeling sociopaths as such doesn't suggest any way forward.

                    Some notable Dem sociopaths were well beloved - John Edwards?

                    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                    by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 07:51:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Would 'truly insane' or mentally ill (5+ / 0-)

                      be better phrasing to get people to realize that the distractions they throw at us aren't the real problem.  That tearing apart our social fabric is only a fortuitous (for them) distraction while they steal our labor and democracy?
                      We keep reacting to their societal bombs and never to the source.
                      We have to change the conversation to those who are directing this destruction.

                      I understand what you mean by "doesn't suggest any way forward".  It's like injecting hitler into an argument.

                      As an example, have President Obama, in a nationally televised speech during prime time say he is wasting his time talking w/Boehner, McConnell etc. and he wants to meet w/their masters, the Kochs, Petersons, Walton's, Coor's, de Vos's etc. and get to the real decision makers.
                      But they are mentally ill and that is the real problem.

                      And I don't see Edwards as being a sociopath. Sociopaths take peoples lives knowingly or unknowingly.  Edwards was an adulterer and an a..hole. But, politically he seemed to have the interests of the poor. What he did to his dear precious wife is unforgivable.

                      And, thank you for responding to my sincere question.

                      "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                      by BrianParker14 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 08:22:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Sometimes people just want to vent (4+ / 0-)

                        but you are spot on with this:

                        It's like injecting hitler into an argument.
                        What most people want/need is a nudge toward what they can do and why they might want to bother doing it right now.

                        Eg, with the new bank fees. Not everyone could afford to move their money, but enough did that it had an impact.

                        Eg, the recent Team 26 - Sandy Hook Ride on Washington. Most people couldn't drop their lives and go on a 400 mile bike ride. But enough people stepped up to support those 26 riders, (including yours truly) and they were able to attract national media coverage for their rolling rally from Newtown, CT to Washington, D.C.

                        Those 4 days, writing diaries that introduce the riders and their support crew were the best I've felt about gun safety reform in a long time. And the juice from that participation will keep me going for some time in the face of determined opposition.

                        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                        by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 08:38:10 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Thanks again. (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          walkshills, cotterperson, dotdash2u

                          That's why I think by including it in most conversations about republican actions would be easy.  Just a comment saying these are the outcomes of such and such and action and only someone who is mentally ill would deny food or medicine,etc.  
                          Making it part of most conversations instead of ignoring what kind of a person(s) would do such things.

                          I sincerely believe we're dealing w/pervasive mental illness and afraid to talk about it.  There are no legitimate conservative arguments that would justify what they're doing to people.

                          "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                          by BrianParker14 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:41:26 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, but (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TrueBlueMajority, cotterperson

                            that's like saying devout religious people are delusional.

                            It may be true that they are, but most people with religious delusions are benign.

                            It steers the convo off course for at least two reasons:

                            1. People react to what appear to be a demonization or a slur instead of on actionable content.

                            2. No one is really qualified to diagnose someone at such length. You are probably right, but no one here has anyway of vetting your qualifications as a diagnostician. And if that were tolerated then other people start diagnosing Schizophrenia, or Bipolar, etc. it just create a mess and people just shout at each other.

                            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                            by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:07:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't think it's difficult to characterize (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kaliope, cotterperson, dotdash2u

                            a billionaire like Pete Peterson who has spent half a billion dollars (through his scam Fix the Debt by way of Simpson-Bowles, Ed Rendell, etc) which is attempting to deny food to hungry children and medicine to the sick and when you look at Simpson laughing and calling poor people idiots while smiling all the way, as mentally ill. They have no legitimate position other than pure greed and malice. Identifying them as mentally ill would really define the conversation in a practical way.
                            But, I do understand what you are saying and of course you are unfortunately right.  But that doesn't mean I won't keep trying to push the point.

                            And yes, devout religious people are scary. I have some friends who are devout and I love them dearly, but they're nuts.

                            "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                            by BrianParker14 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:37:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not sure about that. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cotterperson

                            I think a lot of it is a need to feel better, superior, more deserving.  Our whole national dialogue is hugely about who "deserves" what (e.g. see Romney's 47%).  Such people, I suspect, often feel they're serving some sort of skewed code of justice--in a very self-serving way, of course.  

                            Some of them, I think, are perhaps less interested in hurting other people and more interested in validating, affirming, and justifying their ability and RIGHT to grab, to take, to do whatever the hell they want.  The two are not mutually exclusive, of course, but it's hubris, entitlement, and arrogance, at least sometimes, as much as it is sociopathic malice.

                            My take, anyway.

                            "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life." — Albert Schweitzer

                            by mozartssister on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 06:45:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As you sigline says (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cotterperson, dotdash2u

                            "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life."
                            I hear that as including "all life".
                            To be unconscious about the pain and suffering of others while still doing everything possible to take even  more from them seems to be a tenet of being a sociopath.
                            A definition:
                             Noun
                            A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
                            Sociopaths deserve anything they want w/o consideration of the pain it will cause others. How much more anti social must a person be than to intentionally destroy all social institutions that benefit people (especially the powerless). To be extremely wealthy, have control over legislators and require them to take from the neediest because they feel they "deserve" it, seems to be a definition of a sociopath, eg Kochs, Peterson's, Coors', Walton's etc.
                            My sigline:

                            "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                            by BrianParker14 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 09:12:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your use of these terms is too loose IMO (0+ / 0-)

                            Being greedy and self-serving is not enough to call someone a "sociopath", in my book. And the selfishness that drives greed can be based on emotional problems, even spiritual problems--but calling any of this stuff "mental illness" just doesn't fit the consensual opinion in the mental health field. "Evil" is not a mental illness--it cheapens both terms to equate them, IMO.

                          •  Your analysis, IMO, seems to ignore (0+ / 0-)

                            the fact that I'm defining people who knowingly deny food and health care to the hungry and sick and send people to die, knowingly, for billion dollar corporations in unnecessary wars.  When a Paul Ryan or a Simpson-Bowles know that by eliminating food programs for the hungry and medical care for children and the sick who will die w/o it, that's a sociopath. And, they smile while doing it.
                            It doesn't even have to be for profit. It's done for the sole purpose of despising the weak and having the ability to take advantage of them, and if the outcome is likely death, so what. That's a sociopath. All while smiling.

                            These people know their actions will absolutely cause deaths. And they smile.  That's a sociopath. Malignant narcissistic sociopath. And intentional "evil" is a mental illness. If not, then there's no such thing as right and wrong, good and bad, it's all just relative.

                            An evil act may not be mental illness, but an evil person is.
                            Civilization has witnessed a society constructed by evil people. They were mentally ill.
                            If you believe all is relative then there really is no reason...

                            "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                            by BrianParker14 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 08:00:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't think John Edwards a sociopath. (4+ / 0-)

                      Immature, yeah. Needing something not illegal he wasn't otherwise finding in his life at the time, yeah. Not exactly the ideal father, yeah.

                      Based on Elizabeth Edwards' final diary on this website, it appears she also did not consider her husband of many years a psychopath. She considered him immature.

          •  I think there is a range of urges for sex (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            political mutt

            from ,
            asexual , could not care ,
            would be nice ,
            really want ,
            dying for it ,
            out of touch with reality , willing to do anything rapist .

            Just as some people suffer from kleptomania , tourettes , obsessive-compulsive personality disorder , misogyny ...
            I think some people have problems with there urges for sex .
            Sex addicts that will do anything to get a "fix" , any risky behavior , any cost .  

            I'm not excusing what they do , its not like they are just abusing alcohol , their problem has a grotesque impact on others who obviously are not in any way at fault .
            I'm saying that asking the people who suffer from what I think sometimes with some people is a mental problem , is like asking a tourettes sufferer to just control themselves .

             

            Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

            by indycam on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 11:34:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In defense of sex addicts (13+ / 0-)

              Sex addiction definitely drives people to many risky behaviors. Rape is generally not one of them. And controlling the "urge' to rape is not equivalent to controlling tics or outbursts from Tourette's. Not at all equivalent.

              "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

              by Catte Nappe on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 12:01:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not so sure . (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                political mutt, dotdash2u
                And controlling the "urge' to rape is not equivalent to controlling tics or outbursts from Tourette's.
                Just as some can't control what insults fly out of their mouths when the suffer from Tourette's , just as some can't control their hands when the suffer from kleptomania , I think some people suffer from the same sort of mental problem when it comes to sex . I think the vast majority of people can control themselves re insults , thefts and sex , but that there is a small proportion who have real problems in these areas .

                A small proportion of thieves are sufferers of kleptomania
                who can't control their urge to steal .
                A small proportion of insulters are sufferers of Tourette's
                who can't control their urge to insult .
                A small proportion of rapists are sufferers of something
                who can't control their urges , imho .

                http://psychcentral.com/...

                What Is Sexual Addiction?
                By Michael Herkov, Ph.D

                Sexual addiction is best described as a progressive intimacy disorder characterized by compulsive sexual thoughts and acts. Like all addictions, its negative impact on the addict and on family members increases as the disorder progresses. Over time, the addict usually has to intensify the addictive behavior to achieve the same results.

                For some sex addicts, behavior does not progress beyond compulsive masturbation or the extensive use of pornography or phone or computer sex services. For others, addiction can involve illegal activities such as exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls, child molestation or rape.

                For many, their problems are so severe that imprisonment is the only way to ensure society’s safety against them.

                Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

                by indycam on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 12:31:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I mean (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Naniboujou, snowwoman, Catte Nappe

                  Surely some rapists are compulsive beyond their ability to control themselves.  But I haven't seen any evidence that this represents a primary or even significant explanation for rapes in the United States.

                  For the most part - including in the Steubenville case - rapists seem perfectly able to control their desires, and do not experience their offenses as a momentary lapse of control.  It would be odd that this team happened to have a group of individuals who are criminally insane, that were supported by their peers not as charity cases, but as morally correct.

            •  rape is not about sex. it's about power. /nt (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              peptabysmal, snowwoman, dotdash2u
            •  One big difference---- (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Renee, Catte Nappe, TrueBlueMajority

              I have two students with Tourette's. They clearly cannot control their tics and display them throughout lesson time. However----a rapist will wait until the opportunity arises. If they really couldn't control their urges they would be raping in public, in front of police, etc.

              To keep our faces turned toward change, and behave as free spirits in the presence of fate--that is strength undefeatable. (Helen Keller)

              by kareylou on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:12:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Right. I agree, Catte Nappe. What debunkery (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tchrldy, Catte Nappe

            and where?

        •  Stolen sex theory is interesting. (8+ / 0-)

          But, who are they stealing it from?  A woman who doesn't consent.  

          It seems to me then, that what they're doing is saying, " I don't give a fuck about what you say.  You denied me, so now I'm taking it."

          Seems to be a statement of power.

          My dogs think I'm smart and pretty.

          by martydd on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 12:07:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How much of sexual desire... (4+ / 0-)

          ...is wrapped up in sex as evidence of yourself as powerful?

        •  Stolen sex does not explain the cruelty or sadism. (13+ / 0-)

          It is more complex than that. It is about sex, it is a kind of sex, it is about control and dominance and humiliation and entitlement and violence and narcissism and so much more.

          Since rape drugs are so often used (and there is some talk that this was the case, even by the woman xojane, who broke the story) this is not just losing control of your overly strong sex drive.

        •  And jocks can get sex easily! (4+ / 0-)

          without raping.

        •  IMO There are many reasons for rape (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cotterperson, dotdash2u

          Power and dominance is top of the list. In groups there can be a pack mentality that takes over with a dollop of "prove you're one of us" thrown in. Rape of convenience, as in date rape. Compelled rape, people who plan for a long time feeling compelled to do this.

          I don't think there is one reason alone. None are justified.

          "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

          by high uintas on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 09:02:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  even more depressing another diary notes that (15+ / 0-)

      more football players are accused of raping a 13 year old.  She has already been subjected to the Social Media form of shunning and shaming as well as receiving threats it seems.

      It seems football mania has led some schools to allow a dysfunctional, criminalistic culture to develop within their sports program

    •  That might work, at least sometimes... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson

      I used a similar description, dog/chair leg, to describe to a male friend why his constant demand for his wife's favors might have become unattractive to her. She felt that his needs had nothing to do with her.  dog/chair leg.  

      I asked him what he did if a dog tried to use him as the chair leg. Did he shake the dog off, or just indulge it?

      It pissed him off. A lot. The image did not appeal to his vanity.  We are still friends, but he never put me on the spot again regarding his private marital issues.

      I don't know if it would work on a rapist. A rapist really is an animal. I don't know if you can appeal to an animal's vanity that way.

  •  Is there any way, though, it's an 'either/or'? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    political mutt

    Do we denigrate the moral standing of

    Don't do it because it's wrong
    if we say
    Don't do it because it's imprudent
    I'm hoping you'll say 'No' - and explain it. I'd be happy if it's 'No'.

    Too late for the simple life, too early for android love slaves - Savio

    by Clem Yeobright on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:27:33 AM PDT

  •  If one is a narcissist, then the person (5+ / 0-)

    they love.....is them.

    Most people think, what if it were me? How would I like it? A narcissist doesn't get that far. I'm not sure they love other people any farther than they can rely on them to further enable their narcissism.......but IANAP.

    •  This was my thought... (14+ / 0-)

      why bother with the "what if it was your mother/wife/daughter (especially for adolescent males who are less likely to have the latter two anyway and are less likely to have experienced the kind of feelings about someone else that is generated from having these relationships) at all???

      That's already one degree removed from this debilitating narcissism that the diarist seems to be telling us is both hardwired, inevitable, unchanging and impenetrable, so no amount of social change will impact it (a rather hard to accept conclusion without lots and lots of evidence-based analysis and data, at least to my mind).  

      Why not just engage the narcissism directly and say "what if it were you"?

      Or, is it still too unthinkable to mostly male narcissists that they, too, could be objects?  After all, male rape is both a fact and a possibility, and one they should be aware of.

      (I sense a strong sense of patriarchal privilege at work here in some of the rationales we are trafficking in).  

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:56:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Narcissists are in fact capable of some love. (16+ / 0-)

        Look at Dick Cheney. He's a narcissistic jerk, but he holds his family in high esteem. That's because they mirror his own narcissism, and become narcissistic self-objects as I described above. Narcissists'  love is limited to people that they see as extensions of themselves, and it's conditional. Those self-objects must reinforce their own grandiose self-image--as, in fact, Cheney's wife and children obviously do.

      •  This , imho (4+ / 0-)
        Why not just engage the narcissism directly and say "what if it were you"?

        Or, is it still too unthinkable to mostly male narcissists that they, too, could be objects?  After all, male rape is both a fact and a possibility, and one they should be aware of.

        should be part of what is taught to kids .

        Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

        by indycam on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 11:48:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's conditional. (5+ / 0-)
          Narcissists'  love is limited to people that they see as extensions of themselves, and it's conditional. Those self-objects must reinforce their own grandiose self-image--as, in fact, Cheney's wife and children obviously do.
          So as long as the love objects conform to the narcissist's program, they have an attachment. I would think a narcissist confronted with the rape of a love object might withdraw that conditional love because it doesn't fit in with their structure of self adoration and might see it as threatening or diminishing. OR they would use it to garner sympathy and create more buzz around themselves, because that is what narcissists do. They like to use what happens to other people and paste it on themselves, because they like the attention.
        •  It is taught to many (9+ / 0-)

          It is part of how young children are introduced to empathy. Don't hit Johnny, how would you feel if someone hit you? Don't grab Susie's dolly, how would you feel if someone took your dolly away?

          And "what if it were you" is the foundation of the many culturally and religious versions of what we know as the golden rule.

          I think the diary has a good point though. The football player, powerful and admired jock that he is, cannot imagine being a powerless victim. Never happened to him in his life. Can't conceive of such a thing. But his little sister? He can stretch his imagination to that possibility.

          "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

          by Catte Nappe on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 12:26:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I meant in black and white terms that states (0+ / 0-)

            in vivid color , rape .
            I think a great deal of people avoid the subject when talking to kids .

            Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

            by indycam on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 12:37:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Narcissism is a disorder of emotional development. (19+ / 0-)

          Children aren't instructed how to empathize with others, they learn empathy by being in a warm nurturant environment where they feel loved and valued. They also learn it at a very early age, when they are taught to consider others' feelings and to limit their demands upon others. You can create a narcissistic person either by abusing them, or spoiling them. Either extreme fails to instruct the child in the emotional give and take of healthy human relations.

          You can't just logically argue somebody out of that kind of emotional deficit. You're trying to talk a guy into giving a shit about a woman, when his answer (whether spoken or not) is "I'm NOT a woman, so why should I give a shit?"

          So, the answer is in fact, yes it IS unthinkable to them that they might be an object. Because everybody that they isn't them IS in fact an object, and that's how they treat others. Every decision is based on their own self-interest. If white, he doesn't care what it's like to be black, because he isn't. If young, he doesn't care what it's like to be old, because he isn't. It's that primitive and preverbal.  

          •  So what is the difference between a narcissist (0+ / 0-)

            and a sociopath?

          •  I'm not comfortable with your statement that you (0+ / 0-)

            can "create" narcissists.  While I can see how that can sometimes be the case, isn't this something that people are simply born with most often?  You see families all raised the same way and 5 will turn out wonderfully and one will be a narcissist.  While every child is treated a bit differently, I just don't see how there could be such differences in a family with one child very often.

            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

            by gustynpip on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 08:01:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  "What if it were you?" Now, that is one mind (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dotdash2u

        bending question. Be prepared to watch a swift dive into a masculine fantasy world, or at least extreme discomfort, if you use it, though.

        "Or, is it still too unthinkable to mostly male narcissists that they, too, could be objects?" Yes, I think it may be, but it's certainly worth trying out.

        I'm not certain this one simply applies to narcissists. I suspect the incidence of homophobia among these same males is fairly high. Not because they're closeted, but because they're not even allowed to think about the possibility and still see themselves as properly masculine.

        Maybe one of the changes that needs to be made is to try to teach all kids how to avoid being raped. Just trying to think about how to do it could do a lot to change the attitude.

        At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.

        by serendipityisabitch on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 12:22:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Because narcissists can't make that leap! (10+ / 0-)

        It isn't them, and it's difficult for them to readily identify with anybody else that isn't an extension of themselves. Your suggestion is based on the presumption of a capacity for empathy, the lack of which defines narcissism in the first place. Their feelings are sacrosanct, and they will not put them aside to regard others' feelings because those are generally perceived as a nuisance.

         

      •  Jeez, that's not AT ALL what I said! (9+ / 0-)

        I didn't say that narcissism was "hardwired, inevitable, unchanging, and impenetrable". On the contrary, I said that people can be very frustratingly resistant to change, but some still do it anyway.

        The problem is that when you're in the business of changing hearts and minds like I am, you come to realize that the best way to do it is to come to them, not to make them come to you. You think I'm peddling patriarchal privilege in doing so? No, but neither am I trying to cure it. I'm simply trying to persuade somebody that rape is loathsome, as soon as possible, so that they will share my own sense of outrage and we can agree on a constructive plan of action.

        If the goal is to cure sexism, well, good luck with that. I'm betting this young guy with the porn collection isn't going to flip, because he's young, horny, and invested in his fratrat life. You can write him off politically if you want to--but me, I'd rather gain him as a political ally on this issue NOW, not in the election cycle of 2042.

      •  I've been asking that myself (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dotdash2u

        Getting people to understand rape culture and some of the nuances of this case brings up a whole host of gender-based assumptions, along with perhaps their own empathy getting in the way of understanding the magnitude of the situation--how many of them (of either gender) have been in similar "party" situations where "liberties" were taken--maybe to them, or maybe by them, and they are now being forced to confront some uncomfortable realities in their own situations.

        I've been wondering if it wouldn't be more effective, in order to maybe shock people into seeing it for what it is, to ask, "What if that girl were your son?"

        It's easy for people to think, "My daughter wouldn't run with that crowd/drink too much/get in that situation" or "My son wouldn't disrespect a girl that way" and still not see how cultural it is. Getting them to picture their boy in that girl's position opens up the reality of the power/abuse dynamic outside of the gender dynamic.

        How does the Republican Congress sit down with all the butthurt over taxing the wealthy?

        by athenap on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 05:03:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not a psychiatrist and certainly hesitate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kareylou

        to question a psychiatrist's conclusions, but it doesn't seem to me this kind of phrase is going to have any impact whatsoever on a narcissist, since they're incapable of feeling empathy for others.  they simply don't care what others feel.  They don't bother thinking about what if it was them, because the only thing they care about is what they personally experience.

        "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

        by gustynpip on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 07:51:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, but in this context... (0+ / 0-)

      ....thinking "wife/daughter" would be a challenge to their importance. How dare someone do that to MY possession?!

    •  Not necessarily (6+ / 0-)

      Many people with actual NPD are deeply self loathing. They simply lack the ability to see anyone else as worthy of consideration. They need praise to keep them from deflating. They look for people that provide them with that praise and discard those who don't.

      That is why when someone really has this disorder, they tend to crash and burn over time. It's an unsustainable lifestyle.

      Generally selfish people, who are not mentally ill, can handle the dance of building real enough relationships to survive in normal society. Over time, the true narcissist can't keep that up.

  •  Slightly OT, but what about child-rearing factors? (4+ / 0-)

    I'd be interested in the diarist's opinion about the role that childrearing practices that were promoted throughout the twentieth-century--letting babies "cry it out," minimizing physical affection and touch, etc.--might play in causing the psychic wounds that underlie narcissism in some people?

    This is anecdotal of course, but one of the most narcissistic people I know suffered from severe colic as an infant. She brags about how her parents made her tough it out by leaving her alone in her crib, in the attic, where the rest of the house couldn't hear her cries, until she finally gave up and learned to suffer in silence. That's an extreme example of course but it does make me wonder if the apparently high rates of narcissism in this country might have to do with childrearing practices that could send a primal message that a person's distress is not worthy of a response.

    •  Crying it out is only one style of child rearing (7+ / 0-)

      could cause problems. And a lot of people still do this. {not me btw]. Any kind of dysfunctional family dynamic could lead to issues, and that can follow any number of child-rearing styles.

      I think what you are pointing at here--is that people who consistently do not get their needs met, will at some point ensure their needs are met, even at the expense of others in the future. They anticipate a dearth, and so conduct a pre-emptive strike to get what they need or want.

      But really, what we are looking at here is dehumanizing a child. Systematically depriving a child of their humanity and dignity will also lead to long term negative outcomes. These, along with food and shelter would be primal needs, and their absence would point to a very sick home life.

      I look at  a rape as a sort of syndrome. Because it seems that, like stalking and bullying--that even though we have identified a common vehicle or mechanism, that the drivers may vary from case to case. Maybe we do ourselves a disservice by trying to make blanket statements about what drives these sorts of crimes.

      Look how long it's taken Western Society to Pathologize Rape as a the behavior of an ill or dysfunctional person. And it still hasn't taken 100 percent. There are very large cultural issues that come into this discussion and can really cloud it.

      •  Drivers and blanket statements (4+ / 0-)

        Yes. There clearly must be significant differences given different circumstances. College athlete taking the girl home after dinner and a movie almost certainly is operating on somewhat differenct drivers than a burglar who breaks into a house and rapes the elderly occupant.  I've been bumping up against the same issue in some of the discussion on gun violence. Someone going into a theater full of total strangers and shooting everyone in sight is different from the recently divorced father who shoots his ex-wife, her family, and their kids.

        In any event, rape is wrong. Shooting people is wrong. But how we consider ways and means to reduce and prevent such things has to take into account that somewhat different things may be going on there.

        "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

        by Catte Nappe on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 02:56:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How about when a woman uses a gun to protect (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Catte Nappe

          herself from an attack. My own mother did so three times in her life that I know of. Fortunately, no one died or was seriously injured as would likely have been the case if she had been unarmed and defenseless in these instances.

          The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

          by Wolf10 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:08:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Whole different area of discussion (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Wolf10, GreenMother

            That is not an example of "gun violence we want to prevent", any more than would be consensual sex (even if it includes consensual rape fantasy or imagery or play) an example of "rape that we want to prevent".

            "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

            by Catte Nappe on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:21:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Like I commented earlier, there are two paths. (8+ / 0-)

      If a kid isn't given empathy in the home, they don't learn it. On the other hand, if a kid is spoiled and given everything they want, and never taught that like everyone else they are expected to take others' feelings into consideration, then they won't learn empathy either--they remain arrested in an infantile state of demanding gratification from others.

    •  This just breaks my heart! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dotdash2u

      My son had colic...three straight months of crying through the night. Although it could be insanely tough at times, I held him every minute. He is now one of the most loving 10 year olds I have ever seen. I'm not so sure that it is a complete cause and effect case, but it certainly didn't hurt.

  •  When you make the topic personal, then there is a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DvCM

    chance that the next female human being this person sees or thinks about, might not suddenly be transformed into an object [to be used].

    Thank you for sharing this diary.

  •  if you really cared about rape (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:
    gustynpip

    the first place to start would be prison rape. !5,000 men are being raped today. just in california. Right now.  Do you really care about rape,or just an excuse to bash men some more.

  •  As I posted in the other thread (5+ / 0-)

    The brother/sister, mother/father, son/daughter angle is a tool to connect people that are unrelated to us to the relationships that we value. Its bringing things closer to home.

    It has nothing to do with the seriousness of the event (a rape is a rape, regardless of who it happens to), and everything to do with raising the emotional connection we have to the event by substituting the people we value greatly in our own lives for the anonymous people in the news.

    In other words, the absolute magnitude of the event never changes, but the relative magnitude greatly depends on our connection to the people involved. Using our own relationships is a very good way of increasing the relative magnitude of distant events.

    Perhaps it is a human failing that we can't attach the same weight to tragedies that occur in the lives of others vs. our own lives, but it is very much human nature and IMHO, a very important tool that keeps us from being overwhelmed by the amount of terrible things that happen all the time.

  •  Well said. You posted this in my earlier (3+ / 0-)

    diary and I'm glad you diaried it here.

  •  Well, as one who is related (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yoduuuh do or do not

    to someone with full blown NPD - as in an actual personality disorder - I disagree that this term applies to most of the selfish assholes we see. The spectrum of normal human personality includes extreme selfishness, as sad as that is.

    From the article cited in the diary: "Personality disorders are conditions in which people have traits that cause them to feel and behave in socially distressing ways, limiting their ability to function in relationships and in other areas of their life, such as work or school."

    A person with a true personality disorder is not successful in their life. They do not have successful relationships. While they may temporarily triumph with their manipulations, eventually they crash and burn. I've seen it with my own eyes, trust me.

    The people that are driving us all crazy right now aren't mentally ill. they just occupy that selfish side of the normal spectrum, and the rest of us haven't fought back hard enough against them and put them in their place.

    •  I'd like to correct you a bit, and clarify a bit (7+ / 0-)

      First of all, I'd like to say that your use of the term "mentally ill" when referring even to full-fledged Narcissistic Personality Disorder is highly debatable. I knew perfectly well that the link I offered described NPD, not the wide spectrum of narcissism, which why I worded the sentence the way I did. I just thought that the list of criteria in that link was instructive. A person with full-blown NPD is not at all considered "mentally ill" in the legal sense, and I can state with considerable experience that most psychiatrists would not define NPD as a "mental illness" as well. As a general rule the personality disorders (besides Borderline Personality Disorder, which is largely being redefined now as Complex Post-Traumatic Disorder, an Axis I disorder) are regarded more as complicating factors in treating an Axis I illness such as Major Depression, rather than an illnesses themselves.

      Next, I have to take issue with you that people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder are as a rule unsuccessful. The statement you quoted is generally true of personality disorders, but is not a specific diagnostic criteria for personality disorders. The plain fact is that many people with full-blown NPD are VERY successful in work, for example. The arrogant surgeon that treats his coworkers like shit, the awful boss that regularly humiliates an employee in front of her peers, lawyers, salespersons, construction--full-blown narcissists are found in all walks of life. Many of them, however, have very troubled personal lives, lousy and abusive marriages, miserable kids. Many of them are alcoholics. But they are not "mentally ill", very few of them are ever hospitalized, and many of them are the last to seek voluntary psychiatric treatment because they will be the last person to admit to having a problem. On the contrary, they are more likely to insist that their thoroughly depressed partner is "the who has the problem."

      Finally, I must insist that "that selfish side of the normal spectrum" you allude to is indeed part of the same continuum as clinical narcissism, where pathology of the psyche meets pathology of the spirit. It all comes down to how one was nurtured, how one was wounded, what one was taught. I don't see the clearly delineating line that you do between NPD and the rest of humanity, or between psychological growth and spiritual growth. People that have Narcissistic Personality Disorder can in fact grow and overcome it--and the best cure is what can best be described as "a long dark night of the soul" in which they come to perceive exactly what they have done, and exercise the will to overcome it and finally embrace others after years of self-imposed loneliness. Anyone else on that narcissistic spectrum has a similar capacity to do so--as long as they have the occasion to feel their own pain, recognize their own contribution to it, and have the will to change. Most don't, however--either because they've been enabled by others, or because they're unwilling to let go of a lonely but self-centered worldview that they've relied upon all their life to prop up their fragile self-esteem.

      •  And regarding strategy... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SoCalSal, dotdash2u

        "Fighting back hard and putting them in their place" is not going to be a successful strategy. Gandhi had a better idea.

      •  Disagree (0+ / 0-)

        someone who is very successful does not have a real personality disorder. An NPD individual is in fact mentally ill. They don't happen to be treatable by our current system, because psychiatrists haven't spent nearly as much time on it as other disorders.

        See the Mayo Clinic website that you linked to yourself - or are you one of these psychologists who thinks he knows better than the research?

        In any case, you also sound like someone who believes there is no genetic basis to this sort of thing, and that puts you on one side of a debate that you very well know is not settled about a variety of psychiatric issues.

        People like this - who have the real thing, which you appear to be unfamiliar with - can't really recover or "overcome it". There is little evidence for this.

        An arrogant surgeon who treats his coworkers like shit is not the same as the individuals I have dealt with, or the many more I've read about in my research about this condition.  It's apples and oranges.

        Yes, some human beings have an overly pronounced naturally selfish side. If you're psychiatrist and you haven't guessed that, god help you. but then again, your "science" is anything but at this point.

  •  first off, the victim isn't a "woman", she's (0+ / 0-)

    a teenager, a very young woman at best. in any civilized society (including the US), she isn't considered an adult, but still a child. so too are the teenager's who raped her, which is why they were tried in juvinile court, rather than as adults. as a psychiatrist, i'm surprised you failed to make that obvious distinction.

    your whole premise is wrong: that the only way to get through to young, narcissistic men, is to provide a "relatable" example for them. why? what makes rape so special, that instead of using the normal methods of training, that we don't do harmful things to other people, regardless of whether or not they're related to us, it must be like a "mother, sister, aunt, etc."?
    rape is assault, period. assault, regardless of who the victim is, is generally considered wrong, and we generally teach our children this.

    if someone is so narcissistic, that the only conceivable way of getting through to them, is to somehow provide examples of people close to them, so they don't commit egregious criminal acts, then i believe their narcissism has gone well beyond the "normal", developmental level. it has fallen into the "mental illness" class, and they need to be removed from society, and provided appropriate treatment, until they are no longer a danger to themselves and others.

    •  "Appropriate treatment" might well include (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, where4art, high uintas

      the technique suggested by the diarist. The immaturity that you correctly ascribe to the young perpetrators would seem to call for a limited example from their direct experience that they could then be taught to further generalize to all others. I don't understand your objection to such a method.

      The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

      by Wolf10 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:01:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wife and children in Narcissistic circle (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Naniboujou, 6412093

    I think this fits in with the Republican's obsession with "Family Values." We often see how their family is exempt from most of their abuse as long as they tow the line. Of course if they become too independent, they get slapped down -- spouse abuse, elder abuse, child abuse. Anyone who threatens the narcissist's dominance is quickly attacked. But afterwords, the abuser has no problem, often going so far as to say "I hit you because I love you so much." Basically saying what they really love is how you prop up their self-esteem as a "Family Man."

    Registered Buddhacrat

    by clear SKies on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:05:21 PM PDT

  •  "My Wife, My Job, My Kids and My Car..." (7+ / 0-)

    "...even narcissists tend to develop relationships with "idealized self-objects", i.e. certain other people to whom they value over and above others in their environment, such as spouses and children. These people are allowed into their circle of narcissistic self-regard."

    "We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.” -Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933

    by bekosiluvu on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:07:33 PM PDT

  •  It works with abortion as well. (4+ / 0-)

    "What if your daughter got knocked up by that tattooed moron who dropped out of school?  Wouldn't you want abortion to be legal THEN?"

    That's a very powerful argument for men like me.  When she was a teenager, our daughter had some boyfriends that, if she had come to us telling us that he had got her pregnant, we would have DRAGGED HER BY THE EAR to the nearest abortion clinic.

    In light of those real world worries, abstract bullshit talk about the beginning of life seems out of touch and irrelevant mental masturbation.

    That could be YOU changing diapers while your daughter mopes because her boyfriend is more interested in his new guitar than her and the baby.

  •  i think you're right- (4+ / 0-)

    my therapist told me there's some overlap, but my husband has narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, and intermittent explosive disorder. I always thought bpd was a less severe kind of npd, so i'm not sure how there can be overlap. I always wondered about that.

    anyway, when our first daughter was born he sobbed the first time he held her. I had a c section and was still on the table, so I couldn't hold her. he brought her over to me to show her to me, and he bawled like a baby. the first thing he said was "she has a birthmark." the second thing he said was "i'm going to warn her about boys."  

    I believe your strategy is spot on.

    "...i also also want a legally binding apology." -George Rockwell

    by thankgodforairamerica on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:48:30 PM PDT

  •  this is why Libertarians exist, right? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bekosiluvu, dinazina
    And NO demographic group is more narcissistic than young men, from adolescence up until about 30.
    (snicker)
  •  Since varying statistics show that 30 t0 80% of (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bekosiluvu, melo, high uintas

    women, mostly young females, are raped could the media and politicians particularly, please point out to men that there is a substantial probability their at least one direct blood kin female relative or spouse has been a victim of rape.

    No those women or girls probably have not discussed their pain with their unfeeling male significant others because they know that 1) the guy has no sense of sympathy for anyone but himself, 2) there is a substantial probability that he has committed rape at some point in his life, and 3) there is a pretty high probability that she was the victim of that rape.

    •  ouch. struth. eom. (0+ / 0-)

      "We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.” -Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933

      by bekosiluvu on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:17:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site