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Crooks and Liars finds Fox delivering a new twist on its usual fare of putting two sociopaths on air to talk: Here it is Sean Hannity and Michelle Malkin defending now fired Rutgers men's basketball coach Mike Rice:

The "gems" were nonstop from this pair:

MALKIN: "I think there should be scrutiny of people who blow the whistle on these kinds of things."
Time to check some countertops!

Malkin also blamed the "left wing Media" for the controversy. Yes the uber liberal ESPN.  But she forgot  a certain governor by the name of Chris Christie:

"This was a regrettable episode for the University, but I completely support the decision to remove Coach Rice. It was the right and necessary action to take in light of the conduct displayed on the videotape.
What a Left Wing politically correct wimp!

But Malkin also delivered some material for Ken Cuccinelli to follow up on:

MALKIN: I have to tell you, I'm much better at administering spankings now than receiving them[.]
Is there a law about that sort of thing? I do not know if Malkin has granite countertops, but I think she lives in Virginia.

Finally, this Hannity and Malkin exchange:

HANNITY: My father hit me with a belt, I turned out okay! Except in the minds of liberals.

MALKIN: Same here! Oh, I certainly did. And with more than a belt. I'm sure the left thinks we are warped minds.

HANNITY: That's a good thing. If they liked me, I'd feel that things are really bad.

No need to worry Sean. It does take a warped mind to defend this:

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Comment Preferences

  •  They Are Just Practicing (11+ / 0-)

    For when they have to defend Kim Jong Un from the PC Police and, of course, Obama.

    Talk to me, not at me.

    by sgt sarcasm on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:41:46 AM PDT

  •  VERY Typical Abused Turned Abuser Mindset: (35+ / 0-)
    My father hit me with a belt, I turned out okay!
    Uhh, no, no you didn't. You may be successful, but if you think hitting a child with a belt is ok, then you did not turn out ok. Do you hit your kids with a belt, Hannity? That is NOT ok. I sure hope you didn't continue to perpertuate this abuse.

    Childrearing is the single largest factor in determining psychosocial group dynamics.  Abused children will more often than not grow up to become abusive adults and they will naturally gravitate towards groups that perpetuate abuse (the GOP).  Abused children become authoritarians.

    On the flip side, children raised by non-abusive methods are more likely to associate with progressive ideals.

    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

    by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:43:04 AM PDT

    •  interesting (13+ / 0-)
      Childrearing is the single largest factor in determining psychosocial group dynamics.  Abused children will more often than not grow up to become abusive adults and they will naturally gravitate towards groups that perpetuate abuse (the GOP).  Abused children become authoritarians.

      On the flip side, children raised by non-abusive methods are more likely to associate with progressive ideals.

      I did the opposite. I wonder why. Not abused enough? Where can I read more about childrearing being the largest factor (without too much jargon)?

      "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

      by eXtina on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:50:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Alice Miller (14+ / 0-)

        Self examination and reflection, accepting that you were abused and it was wrong can be the path to self-fulfillment.

        People, especially children, do not want to belive their parents were bad parents. If they were abused, they are taught that they deserved it.  This leads to all sorts of cognitive dissonance. "I'm doing this for your own good!", "this hurts me more than it hurts you!"

        The reality is that spankings, belts, etc. are all about the emotional state and need of the parent who is administering the abuse; it satisfies a need with THEM and is then excused as "Well, I was hit with a belt and I turned out ok! So this must be ok!"

        http://alice-miller.com/...

        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

        by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:56:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's not always true (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Leap Year, AussieforObama2ndterm

          I spanked my eldest until she was three years old.  If I hadn't, she would not have lived to be four.  Once she reached the age of reason at three, I stopped.  Sometimes swats on the bottom are necessary for the very young.

          My younger daughter was less of a hellraiser and I didn't have to swat her.

          •  Sorry, But That's Fucked Up (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sir Roderick

            No reason ever to "swat" a 3 year old. You can try to justify it any way you want, but as far as I'm concerned, that's abuse and you're just trying to justify it. I assume you too were "swatted" and you "turned out ok!". Just like Hannity.

            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:56:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  She would run out into traffic (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Leap Year, AussieforObama2ndterm

              I spent much of her baby and toddlerhood with her physically strapped to my hip.  She started walking at nine months, before her brain had caught up to her body.

              Believe me, as soon as I was able to bribe her with a cookie, I stopped spanking her.  The last time I spanked her was when she ran away from me at the zoo.  The zoo people found her a quarter mile away and brought her back to me on a golf cart.  Thank my lucky stars that happened someplace there were personnel with walkie talkies.

              I never had to spank my younger daughter because she wasn't a death risking daredevil.

              •  Doesn't Matter, She Didn't Deserve To Be "Spanked" (1+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Sir Roderick
                Hidden by:
                Outraged Mom

                That was what you FELT you needed to do, but it had nothing to do with her, it had to do with YOU and YOUR needs and feelings.

                There are other ways to control a 3 year olds behavior if she's running into traffic.

                If she ran away from you at the zoo, frankly, it's YOUR fault for not keeping a better eye on your child. 3 year olds do that. It's normal, and they should not be spanked for it.

                It's your job to keep an eye on your 3 year old and make sure she doesn't run away at the zoo or wander into traffic. Period.

                This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:03:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  She didn't "wander" (3+ / 0-)

                  She ran.  Deliberately.  She wanted to go to a different exhibit first.  She wanted to see the lions before the butterflies.

                  And she could climb anything, quick as a wink.  She had no head for danger.

                  I don't have to defend myself to you.  I know what I did was the right thing to do. The only other option would have been to put her a leash, like a dog.

                  •  It Still Doesn't Matter, That's Normal For 3 (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sir Roderick

                    It does not excuse abuse, and yes, spanking is abuse, regardless of your personal justifications for it.

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                    by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:09:20 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  abuse would have been to let her get killed (0+ / 0-)

                      which she most certainly would have if I didn't spank her

                      •  No, That's Your Fears, Not Reality, And It Only (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sir Roderick

                        Serves to make you feel better about the absue you perpetrated on your child.

                        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                        by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:13:03 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Children running out into oncoming traffic (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          moseyon

                          don't get killed?  

                          There was one time, we got out of the car at an IHOP.  There was a very busy thoroughfare beyond the front of the car past the sidewalk, no fence.

                          I was holding her hand as we got out of the car.  She wriggled her hand out of my grasp, rolled underneath the open car door and ran towards the sidewalk, toward the oncoming traffic, laughing.  I couldn't chase after her, the car door blocked my way (I was between two cars).  I didn't have time to shut the door and come after her.

                          I was lucky, I was able to stop her with the sound of my voice, but I couldn't risk her doing that again.  I had to teach her that that behavior was dangerous.  

                          That was just one of many, many instances.

                          •  I Know You Have Your Justifications, But Hitting (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick, Cassandra Waites

                            a toddler is wrong. What you taught her was how to be cognitiviely dissonant and that hitting people to get what you want is ok.

                            She was not taught that running into traffic was wrong.

                            She was given a pavlovian trigger to avoid traffic or receive pain.

                            She was TAUGHT pain=love.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:23:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  how old are your children? (0+ / 0-)

                            I'd like to know

                          •  I Have Twin Six Year Olds (3+ / 0-)

                            And they were both a handful at 3 and I NEVER had to hit them once, even though at times I may have FELT like it. I had the discipline and self control not to do it because it's wrong.

                            Somehow, they both learned not to run into traffic or run away at zoos. And they have both done that and I didn't hit them, and they learned anyway.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:29:09 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I never "felt" like hitting my child (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AussieforObama2ndterm

                            I did it very deliberately.  I never hit my child out of anger, but out of a very earnest desire to as you say, create a pavlovian fear of dying.

                            As I said, my oldest was unusual.  She had to be treated differently in the baby group too, in the pre-preschool group.  She was abnormal.  It wasn't that she was hyperactive, just unusually early developed in physical strength and coordination.

                            Not all children are alike.  My youngest one was (and is) a handful, but she didn't turn my hair gray.  

                            Now that they are grown, they both hit each other equally.  Even though they were treated differently with the spanking, they seem to act the same.  

                          •  Sure You Did, But I'm Sure That's How You (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick

                            Justify it to yourself.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:38:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you ever feel like hitting your children (0+ / 0-)

                            out of anger, you should talk to a therapist.

                            You seem to know so much about me and my children.

                            When I was angry at my child, I would yell--I am a very effective yeller.

                            I never spanked my child when she was a pain in the ass, and believe me, she was often a pain in the ass.  I never spanked her to get her to do something I wanted.  I spanked her in very specific circumstances--immediately after she had willfully done something extremely physically dangerous to herself that had not resulted in any painful result.

                          •  Umm, You Hit Your Child To Stop Her From (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick

                            Doing something. That's the same thing as hitting her to get he to do something you wanted.

                            I'm sure you tell yourself it was all perfectly reasonable and you didn't want to do it. "I do this for you and it hurts me more than it hurts you. I do this because I love you."

                            Cognitive dissonance at it's very root essence.

                            You hit her to satisfy YOUR emotional needs. I'm sure you really believe this is not the case. Most abusers feel the same way and use the same justifications.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:01:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  my emotional need to keep her alive, yes (0+ / 0-)

                            indeed.

                            If it was such an emotional need to hit her, then why didn't I also hit her sister, or hit her under other circumstances?  Surely my emotional need to hit people wouldn't surface in such specific circumstances?

                            I do enjoy spanking people.  Grown-up people who consent to it.  I'm a dominant and my main love is rope bondage, but my submissives often have a taste for pain and in that circumstance I enjoy the act of spanking.  I know what that feels like and I am in touch with that part of myself.

                            Spanking my toddler wasn't to fulfill an emotional need, it was a very practical decision on my part.  To KEEP HER ALIVE.

                            If you are reading your own circumstance into my life, if YOU are feeling an emotional need to hit your children, I say again, that that is the sort of thing that should be discussed with a therapist.

                          •  LOL! You Actually HIT Your Kid! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick

                            And you're into bondage?

                            My oh my.

                            No, you spanking your child was not an emotional need on your part. Not at all.

                            Keep telling yourself that.

                            But my self control over my emotions that enables me to control any impulses towards violence, THAT'S the problem in your view?

                            ROFL!

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:27:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  when they returned her to me at the zoo (0+ / 0-)

                            all I could feel was intense relief.  There were so many things that could have happened to her.  There is nothing more agonizing than the feeling I had when she was gone  (it took them a long time to find her because she was so damn far away).  But I forced myself to put on a very angry face and immediately yell at her and give her some swats on her bottom, even though my EMOTIONAL reaction was to want to burst into tears, hold her in my arms and never let her go.  I was so happy to see her again.

                            I still remember every second of that agonizing time, years later.  I had nightmares about it for a long time.

                          •  Indeed, You Were Agonized, And You Hit Your Child (0+ / 0-)

                            as a response to YOUR agony. It was all about YOUR emotional needs and outlets.

                            For you to tell me there was no emotional component is a self deception on your point. There were LOT'S of emotions involved in that event, and for you to deny their role in YOUR behavior is doing yourself and your child a disservice.

                            She ran away at the zoo. She was 3 years old. They do that. She did not deserve to be hit for that. You hitting her was a response based on YOUR emotional state, not a necessity.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:59:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  some day there will be a situation (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Batya the Toon

                            where your children do not fit the normal mode, and you will be judged just as you have judged me today.  Not all children are the same, not all children respond the same way to the same things, and children have different needs.

                            In everything I have said, you have put yourself in my place, you have put your children in the place of my children.  We are different people and our children are different people.  My mind has not changed from my initial post in this diary.  Not every situation is the same and not everything is black and white.

                            I have answered all your arguments and you have still not been able to see outside your own very closeminded view.  Gently swatting a toddler on the bottom with an open hand to keep them from self harm is not the same thing as taking a belt to a nine-year-old.

                          •  See, You Think I'm Judging YOU, I'm NOt (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm not saying your a bad person, I'm saying I don't think you behaved appropriately.

                            You haven't answered all my arguments, you've gotten defensive in trying to justify behavior that you feel defensive about. And you've justified and justified and justified.

                            The fact that you feel the need to continue to try to justify it says more about how you really feel about that behavior to begin with than you consciously realize. You feel you DO need to justify it. You DO feel defensive about it. There's a reason for that.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:10:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you are calling me a child abuser (0+ / 0-)

                            and comparing me to a murderer.  Frankly I'm surprised you haven't been HRed into bojo, so clearly the community agrees with you.

                            I will keep arguing with you as long as you like.  You are deeply insulting me.  The worst I have called you is an asshole.

                          •  No, I'm Saying Your Behavior Was Abusive (0+ / 0-)

                            I believe it was. You feel defensive about it. Wonder why that is?

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:14:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you are calling me a child abuser (0+ / 0-)

                            just look upthread where you said this:

                            You hit her to satisfy YOUR emotional needs. I'm sure you really believe this is not the case. Most abusers feel the same way and use the same justifications.
                            That sure sounds to me like you were calling me an abuser.
                          •  Nope (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cordgrass

                            I'm saying that people who ARE abusers use the same types of justifications.

                            I don't know if you are an abuser or not, I only know that the behavior you have described is in my opinion, abusive.

                            However, if it was not chronic and happened only occasionally under certain circumstance, I would not consider you to be a child abuser, I would consider you to have used bad judgement on several occasions.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:22:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Cordgrass, You Are NOT A Bad Person, IMO (0+ / 0-)

                            I just want to make that very, very clear. I am NOT judging you. You recc'd my last post, and I hope that was not accidental. This is a subject that is INCREDIBLY delicate, and emotionally charged, and there are many, unconscious PROGRAMMED responses that people have to this subject.

                            When you hit your child, as punishment, as you have indicated, it cannot help but be an emotional event, on all levels. Do you agree?

                            Just think about that.

                            For you AND your child.

                            You seem to think that causing them THIS pain and humiliation will achieve some goal, and yet, you also dismiss it as "just a pat". If it's "just a pat", how will it achieve your goal?

                            Why do you maintain this contradiction?

                            Do you see what I'm getting at here?

                            You were "spanked" as a child, were you not?

                            How do you feel about that?

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 06:45:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So far none of this merits an HR in my opinion (5+ / 0-)

                            but I don't agree with it for a moment.

                          •  Beetwasher, cordgrass HAS answered your arguments. (3+ / 0-)

                            Repeatedly, thoroughly, and rationally.

                            Characterizing every single answer as "defensiveness" and "justification" doesn't mean you haven't been answered.

                          •  Umm, There Was Nothing To "Answer" (0+ / 0-)

                            I was stating my opinion that the behavior she described was abusive.

                            She disagreed and got defensive.

                            There's no "rational" reason to hit a child, especially a toddler. That's my opinion. There's no "answer" to that, there's only defensiveness and supposed justifications for doing so.

                            In my opinion, it is never justified. She disagrees. That's her perogative. I never asked her for justifications nor was it required. She felt it was necessary.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:32:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If there was nothing to "answer" (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cordgrass, starfu

                            then why this?

                            You haven't answered all my arguments, you've gotten defensive
                          •  LOL! She Said She Answered All My Arguments! (0+ / 0-)

                            Whatever that means, I was responding to her!

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:36:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Uh-huh. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cordgrass, Wood Dragon, starfu

                            So essentially:  your opinion is just your opinion, but no argument given to support disagreement with it can ever be anything but defensiveness and justification.  And all the things you're saying to support your own opinion ... aren't arguments?

                            You sure you don't believe in absolutes?  Because you're sounding like you do.

                          •  Is That What I Said? Where Did I Say That? (0+ / 0-)

                            Oh, that's right, I never said that, that's all in your imagination.

                            Yes, my opinion is just my opinion. That's a problem for you? You sound like you WANT me to speak in absolutes so you might have something to hang your hat on.

                            It's very simple. I stated what I believed. I believe striking a child is never justified.  Cordgrass, even though I wasn't speaking to her, felt the need to jump in and claim that yes, she hit her child, but it was entirely justified. And then proceeded to justify and justify and justify.

                            Yeah, I'd call that defensive. I didn't ask her to do that. I wasn't even speaking to her.  Who is she trying to convince that her behavior was justified? Me? Who the fuck cares what some asshole like me on the internet thinks? I made it very clear I don't think it's every jusitified, and yet she continues and continues to try to justify it. To me? Or to herself? You decide.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:52:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Where did you say that? (0+ / 0-)

                            Right about here:

                            That's my opinion. There's no "answer" to that, there's only defensiveness and supposed justifications for doing so.
                            And no, the "I wasn't even talking to her" special pleading won't wash.  You say something in a public venue, you are speaking to everybody who reads it.  You say "X is child abuse", you are in fact accusing everybody who does X of child abuse.

                            ... and you know what, this has turned into a discussion about the discussion instead of about the issue.  That's never a good sign.  I think I might take a few hours' break and revisit this evening.

                          •  That Doesn't Say What You Apparently Think It Does (0+ / 0-)

                            To make it clearer:  That's my opinion. I don't see her "answering' that, I see her being defensive and justifying her actions.

                            I wasn't saying "My opinions are fact and can only be responded to with justifications and defensiveness. There's a difference.

                            this has turned into a discussion about the discussion instead of about the issue.  That's never a good sign.  I think I might take a few hours' break and revisit this evening.
                            Yeah, gee, wonder how that happened.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 02:11:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  kids on leashes (0+ / 0-)

                    at about minute 1:50 there's an old guy waving a cell phone over his head. why?

                •  did your baby walk at nine months? (0+ / 0-)

                  Don't judge me until you have been in my shoes.

                  •  Just Like Hannity! You Have Your Justifications (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sir Roderick

                    And you'll be damned if anyone will tell you differently! YOU turned out ok, right?

                    There are other ways, but you don't need to know that, you just need to justify that what you did was "right", that way you don't have to feel bad about it.

                    It's all about YOUR feelings, not what your kid did.

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                    by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:11:56 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you are the one with preconceived notions, not me (0+ / 0-)

                      you are the one saying that there is never a case when it is okay to swat a toddler

                      •  There IS Never A Justification For Hitting A (2+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sir Roderick, Cassandra Waites
                        Hidden by:
                        Outraged Mom

                        Toddler. Damn straight. A 3 year old doesn't understand tough love. They only understand that they are being caused pain and they are being told it's love. The very root of cognitive dissonance.

                        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                        by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:17:47 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  They learn about danger from the pain they feel (0+ / 0-)

                          If they jump down off a high place, they get hurt.  If they climb and fall, they get hurt.  I let my daughter experience those natural hurts, but I wasn't going to let her get killed for her to learn a lesson.

                          Children that young do not understand the passage of time, or rewards and punishments in the future.  As soon as she was able to comprehend the future, I was able to threaten non-physical punishments like no cookie or no toy.  But in the very small child, a very dangerous behavior followed by immediate mild (very light swat) teaches the child that that behavior is dangerous.  All children learn that way.

                          •  No, They Don't Learn From The Pain (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick, Cassandra Waites

                            They learn a pavlovian response to avoid traffic or receive pain.

                            What they cognitively learn is that it's ok to hit people to get what you want from them.

                            They cognivitely learn that pain=love, since you tell them that you did it because you love them and it's for their own good. This is the very root of cognitive dissonance. That it was you taught her.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:27:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  fine. At least she's alive. nt (0+ / 0-)
                          •  Honestly, What Your Describing Is Not The Worst (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick, Cassandra Waites

                            Thing in the world, and I'm sure your daughter will turn out fine. What you did, I'm sure, was mild, but I truly believe not necessary.

                            But you might want to reflect on it a bit, do some reading about it, and think about how you might explain your disciplining of your child to her in a way that won't make HER feel responsible for what you did to her. She is not responsible for it, despite what she did. 3 year olds DO NOT KNOW BETTER. THe DO need to be taught, but hitting is not the most effective way.

                            It IS the easy way, but not the best or most effective way.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:32:04 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  we have often discussed how I spanked her (0+ / 0-)

                            and why.  I sincerely hope if her children, if she has children, are born the way she was, that she will not hesitate or feel the slightest qualm about spanking them.

                            But if she wants to put them on leashes instead, I will be a good grandmother and shut my trap.

                          •  Yes, This Is Very Common, And It's Why Abuse (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick, Cassandra Waites

                            Continues to be perpetuated in our culture.

                            Thankfully, more and more people are understanding it is wrong to hit children, no matter the cirucumstances.

                            You taught her violence is ok to get people to do what you want. Yes, she will likely teach the  same to her children.

                            And so it goes.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:40:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see your sig shows you are self aware nt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            starfu
                          •  Oh, Yeah, I'm An Asshole Alright, Especially (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick

                            to parents who hit their 3 year old kids and think it's just honkey dorey and their 3 year old kids deserved it!

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:55:26 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "deserved"? what on earth are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

                            I was trying to instill in my daughter a sense of danger in dangerous situations.  And I was successful.

                          •  Keep Telling Yourself That Your Abuse Was (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sir Roderick

                            Necessary to achieve that.

                            You're obviously very defensive about it because you need to believe you were correct in doing so. You need to justify your behavior, I get it. Even murderers have justifications for their behavior.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:29:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  how would you have taught her that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Batya the Toon

                            dangerous situations were dangerous?  At two?

                            I did honestly feel it was necessary.  Rationally necessary.  I stopped it as soon as I felt I had an alternative.

                            If I had some emotional need to beat my children, wouldn't I have continued to spank her and also spank her sister?

                          •  I Would Speak Firmly To Her About The Danger (0+ / 0-)

                            I would explain it to her, simply.  2 year olds can understand these things on a simple verbal level, but also on an emotional, non-verbal level. They can understand mommy is upset. I would keep a closer eye on her. If she continued to exhibit dangerous behavior like running into traffic, I would do everything to keep her away from situations that would put her near traffic when she wasn't constantly supervised. I would keep her in a play pen, behind a gate etc.  It is your responsibility to watch your kids. 2 year olds don't know traffic is dangerous, and hitting them is no way to effectively teach them. It's the easy way to get what you want, but it's not the effective way.

                            If I had some emotional need to beat my children, wouldn't I have continued to spank her and also spank her sister?
                            Nope, not necessarily. Not at all. In fact, it's not unusual for abuse to be heaped upon one child and not another. It's called scapegoating, and it's a fairly common dynamic in abusive situations.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:53:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you don't think I TRIED that sort of thing? (0+ / 0-)

                            Christ, I'm not a moron.

                            I went beyond keeping her in a playpen, I had her STRAPPED TO MY BODY for much of the time.  She could CLIMB OUT OF PLAYPENS.

                          •  You Keep Trying (0+ / 0-)

                            You decided to take the easy way out and hit her.

                            Her getting away and being in danger was emotional turmoil for you, correct? But you claim there was no emotion behind your response, which was to hit her?

                            How does that work? Are you Spock?

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:01:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  I have to disagree with you there. (8+ / 0-)

              I don't believe that spanking or similar corporeal punishment automatically constitutes abuse.

              I do believe that punishing a child in anger is wrong, regardless of whether the punishment consists of spanking, shouting, withholding of privileges, confining to one's room, or anything else one might use as a disciplinary measure.  If a parent has anger issues, any sort of punishment can be abusive.  Likewise any punishment inflicted to excess, arbitrarily, preferentially, or any combination of the above.  (I am somewhat inclined to think that using any instrument to hit a child, such as a belt, is automatically excessive.)

              There are a few categories of "discipline" that I think are always wrong, and they mostly involve deliberate belittling or humiliation (e.g., the old dunce-cap punishment that schools used to use).  Spanking is not one of them.

              For the record: I was spanked as a kid.  And I can tell the difference between spanking and abusive beating.  If Hannity is equating spanking with Coach Rice's misconduct, my guess is that he can't -- either because his childhood spankings were abusive (possible), or because he lacks the most basic vestige of empathy (probable), or both.

              •  thank you (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Batya the Toon, SmartRat, Wood Dragon

                It's hard to take being called an abusive parent.  I did the best that I could, under the circumstances.

              •  It's Never The Right Thing To Hit A Child (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sir Roderick

                Their behavior is all learned from you.

                If you hit your child to discipline them, they learn that hitting people is the way to get them to do what you want.

                That is what is learned.

                They learn pavlovian responses to avoid pain.

                They learn that love=pain.

                They do not learn the reasons WHY what they did was wrong, even if you tell them. The pain and humiliation from the spanking or whatever completely obfuscates the supposed justification for it. They remember the pain and humiliation as the lesson, they learn cognitive dissonance.

                How can they learn that violence is not the solution to problems when mommy and daddy, who supposedly love them used violence to mitigate their behavior?

                They will likely themselves use violence to mitigate other people's behavior.

                This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:37:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  This does not always happen. (4+ / 0-)
                  If you hit your child to discipline them, they learn that hitting people is the way to get them to do what you want.
                  Other things that aren't good ways to get people to do what you want:  giving them orders, taking things out of their hands, denying them privileges, putting them on leashes ... the list goes on.

                  Here's the thing:  there is almost nothing in a good parent-child relationship, especially with a very small child, that makes a good model for any other sort of relationship.  A parent has to be able to impose his or her will on a child, because the child is the parent's responsibility until old enough to be autonomous.  Acting like somebody's parent -- again, especially like a small child's parent -- is never a good way to treat other people.  That doesn't make it a bad way to treat your kid.

                  Hitting older children to discipline them is generally a bad idea, for a lot of the reasons you mention; once you're old enough to make decisions based on anything but pavlovian responses, you should be given better reasons than this-hurts-keep-away.  But there's also this:

                  They do not learn the reasons WHY what they did was wrong, even if you tell them. The pain and humiliation from the spanking or whatever completely obfuscates the supposed justification for it.
                  While this absolutely can happen, it doesn't always -- and to the extent that it happens, it can happen with any kind of discipline.  If the parent emphasizes the punishment instead of the problem with the behavior, the child learns nothing but "This behavior is wrong because I said so" and that the crucial thing is obedience.  That's a bad lesson even when it isn't inculcated by physical pain.

                  Disciplining kids without terrorizing them is a difficult line to walk.  Eschewing physical punishment of any sort definitely makes it easier not to cross that line -- but it doesn't guarantee it.  And using physical punishment doesn't guarantee that you will.

                  •  There Are No Absolutes, And No One Said It's Easy (0+ / 0-)

                    It's not. But physically disciplining any child of any age is wrong morally (IMO) and it's not effective.

                    The confusion, the humiliation, the pain will obfuscate and "rational" lessons you were hoping they'd learn and the scars can lead to much dysfunction and cognitive dissonance.

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                    by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:05:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You are correct: there are no absolutes. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Wood Dragon

                      Including the things you keep saying are absolutes.

                      I respect your conviction that striking a child is never justified, but I do not share it.

                      •  Umm, I Never Said They Were Absolutes, They Are (0+ / 0-)

                        Obviously my opinions and I do believe that striking a child is never justified. That is not an absolute, it is my, subjective opinion. Obviously people disagree.

                        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                        by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:18:44 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  From experience (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Beetwasher, Cassandra Waites

                  I can tell you that my beatings by my mother and my subsequent rage are the two main factors in my decision never to have a child.  I'm not sure a child so young can determine between spankings derived from anger and spankings derived from worry and lesson teaching.  If they stop the behavior it is more out of fear from being struck than fear of being hurt by their own actions.

      •  Try this book- (11+ / 0-)

        Bob Altemeyer's - The Authoritarians.There may be some jargon and its not short, but its available for free on line. It is a very worthwhile read. It covers a lot more than just parenting.
        I've been in the "my parents beat me with this and that" conversation between authoritarian types. Each trying to outdo the other. As though it was a badge of honor. Then they look at me and ask what my parents beat me with. My answer "I was never spanked." Their response "that's what's wrong with you!"
        It seems to me that personality types that persist in a culture must have a way to reproduce themselves. Of course it only works some of the time.

        Here's your horoscope for today: The universe doesn't even know that you exist.--Jbou

        by greycat on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:05:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I got my share of spankings (7+ / 0-)

      but they were always with my parent's open hand. Still not great but at least it makes it harder to go overboard on the abuse. (Also puts the truth to the old saw, "This hurts me as much as it hurts you.") They were infrequent and used for really egregious offenses (my last one was when I was stealing my siblings' Easter candy then lying about it -- I think I was about 7 or 8), not a weekly event.

      Unlike Hannity, I did turn out okay -- didn't have kids, but that had more to do with my fear of being a young widow stuck with kids like my mom was.

      There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

      by Cali Scribe on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:54:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If You Realize It Was Wrong, And Don't Excuse It (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sawgrass727

        It allows you to work through it.

        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

        by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:56:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  My Mom had a wooden paddle (3+ / 0-)

        It was commercially made, with the name "Board of Education" painted on it, and little caricatures of kids being paddled. It was hung in the laundry room when it wasn't being employed for its intended purpose.

        Didn't seem strange at the time, but can you imagine a company today marketing paddles expressly made for whacking little kids?

        It seems so odd now.

    •  Not all abused children become authoritarian. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      paradox, JGibson, blukat, starfu

      Many grow up to be vehemently anti-violence.

      They do tend to end up on the far extreme though. I'll concede that. Nothing "moderate" about their insticts to sympathize with vulnerable people and iften critters too.

      But you really should avoid smearing ALL adult abused children. They've been through quite enough.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:21:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not so sure it was a sneer (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grover, Beetwasher

        More insensitivity based upon ignorance, rather than malice, I think.  In the world of insensitive acts, not so bad.

        I mean, I didn't like it, but I don't feel he did something wrong to me personally.

        I loathe authoritarians with an intensity that cannot be described.  I hate violence, cannot understand how Obama cannot get out of Afghanistan, and yes, I will fiercely defend any soul who is being abused.  My whole political philosophy is based upon helping the little people.

        I cannot tell you incredibly hard it has all been.  Worst of all was the lying and denial, so much would have been different if only the truth was available to me.  I lost decades in the wilderness from all this.

        •  No, Actually, Not Insensitivity, Not Ignorance (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sawgrass727, Batya the Toon, paradox

          The poster is reading something into what I said that wasn't there.

          Childrearing is the single largest factor in determining psychosocial group dynamics.  Abused children will more often than not grow up to become abusive adults
          I was very precise in what I wrote and it was in no way insensitive or ignorant.

          This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

          by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:48:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Uhh, Read What I Wrote, This Time, Comprehend (0+ / 0-)
        Childrearing is the single largest factor in determining psychosocial group dynamics.  Abused children will more often than not grow up to become abusive adults...
        I didn't smear all of anyone.

        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

        by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:46:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, my reading comprehension is quite good. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cordgrass, Wood Dragon, starfu

          I'll try to walk you through it.

          You said this:

          Abused children become authoritarians.
          And I responded to THAT sentence. I didn't address your statement about child abusers because the diary is about Malken, Hannity and their ilk -- that is, authoritarians.

          You didn't qualify. You didn't dilute. You didn't say "many, most, some, often, frequently," or offer any other qualifiers.

          You said this:

          Abused children become authoritarians.
          I don't deal with authoritarians, and you have proven yourself one, as you quickly toss out snide comments unwilling to even glance back at your comment and see if perhaps that you may have posted what I objected to.

          So I'm done here.

          But you did correct paradox just above this comment, and you were wrong. You owe him/her an apology.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:20:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  LOL! Ok, You Want To Be Offended, Be Offended (0+ / 0-)

            The context of what I said is clear to anyone who cares to comprehend what they read and your passive aggressive posture is noted. Have fun with your greiveance! And oh, I don't think you speak for Paradox.

            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:45:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Sociopaths Of A Feather... nt (8+ / 0-)

    Talk to me, not at me.

    by sgt sarcasm on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:43:13 AM PDT

  •  Hmmm... (15+ / 0-)

    This dialogue explains a lot.  Sean and Michelle, please get help.

    'Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost' - Ronald Reagan, Communist

    by RichM on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:44:31 AM PDT

  •  Well Well Michelle thanks for Sharing (7+ / 0-)

    I want 1 less Tiny Coffin, Why Don't You? Support The President's Gun Violence Plan.

    by JML9999 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:44:37 AM PDT

  •  Rutgers didn't even make the Tourney (8+ / 0-)

    Did they even get into the NIT?  Conservatives defending failure.  Surprise, surprise...

  •  I knew she was kinky (13+ / 0-)

    My spanko-dar is never off.

    This head movie makes my eyes rain.

    by The Lone Apple on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:45:47 AM PDT

  •  Maybe It Is Time For An Anonymous Call To Child (10+ / 0-)

    Services. You know, just to make sure Hannity and Malkin's kids are "okay"

    Talk to me, not at me.

    by sgt sarcasm on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:46:09 AM PDT

  •  I don't know why this surprises anyone. (17+ / 0-)

    It's likely the answer to the question as to why so few of the kids said anything - because they feared they'd be ridiculed by pieces of shit like Sean Hannity.

    It shows how far we've come in this country that most older male sports talk show hosts are appalled by Rice's behavior. It wasn't like this a decade ago. I remember when Bobby Knight had countless supporters.

    Money doesn't talk it swears.

    by Coss on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:46:11 AM PDT

    •  And there are younger ones (5+ / 0-)

      who see no problem with it -- one local host I normally respect called the reaction part of the "wussification" of sports...and said that he wanted to use a different word but didn't want to get into trouble.

      I can see the need for the occasional verbal beatdown (with the exception of racial/homophobic slurs; "asshole" works just fine) -- but physical abuse should never be tolerated for any reason.

      There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

      by Cali Scribe on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:59:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Asshole? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites

        "Asshole" as a verbal beatdown? Absolutely not.  Sure, at high levels a very good stern talking to about how disappointed the coach is in the performance of the players, how they're not working hard enough, how they're not working hard and paying attention in practice sessions, those types of verbal talk downs are fine and can really make a difference with highly motivated players. But calling a player an "asshole" because they didn't perform in a game?  

        No sir, no way, no how, this is never acceptable and I don't care what level - youth recreational all the way through professional sports.

        [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

        by rabel on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:25:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm thinking more of the player (0+ / 0-)

          who doesn't put in the full effort, or costs the team a game with a dumb penalty -- if someone's being an asshole, they need to be called out on it. (If I'm being an asshole, I appreciate being called out on it.) I wouldn't use that sort of language at the high school or lower level, but by the time a player gets to college and certainly by the time they get to the pros, they should know better what's smart play and what's not. (And compared to what's normally said in big league clubhouses, "asshole" is tame...have an acquaintance who's a former pro athlete.)

          There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

          by Cali Scribe on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:38:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Au contrair (17+ / 0-)

    they did not turn out "ok."  

    Far from it.

    My living will says it’s okay to pull the plug on me, but I’d like them to at least try jiggling it a few times first.

    by jackandjill on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:47:22 AM PDT

  •  Malkin is a piece of excrement. (8+ / 0-)

    Absolutely loathsome. I can't believe she didn't do better in the March to Madness. She needs a special (dis)honorable mention or soemthing.

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:47:58 AM PDT

  •  Well this certainly explains a lot doesn't it (9+ / 0-)
    HANNITY: My father hit me with a belt, I turned out okay! Except in the minds of liberals.
    MALKIN: Same here! Oh, I certainly did. And with more than a belt. I'm sure the left thinks we are warped minds.

    HANNITY: That's a good thing. If they liked me, I'd feel that things are really bad.

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:48:34 AM PDT

  •  This is just another example (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999, JBL55, Yoshimi, shoeless

    Right-wingers are really bad at analogies.

  •  Coach Rice...29-35 in two years at Rutgers (8+ / 0-)

    No post-season, terrible Big East Conference record.

    Malkin and Hannity support failures.  

  •  bigotry (6+ / 0-)

    To me, the firing should have happened because of the bigotry displayed--not solely the violence.  We need to show similar bigoted statements by politicians over the last 30 years-- and force their firings.  It was disgusting that Arnold got away with "girlie-man."

    Apres Bush, le deluge.

    by melvynny on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:55:08 AM PDT

  •  The news that she's a top is NOT BREAKING. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Armando, raboof, JBL55

    Republicans represent both sides: the insanely rich and vice versa.

    by Crashing Vor on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:56:30 AM PDT

  •  Interesting. (10+ / 0-)

    As someone who was repeatedly hit with a belt by his father (along with my 4 siblings), I can honestly say that few in that situation don't come away a bit f*cked up.  Or maybe more than a bit.  

    I'm not always political, but when I am I vote Democratic. Stay Democratic, my friends. -The Most Interesting Man in the World

    by boran2 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:56:35 AM PDT

  •  I wonder if they would send their kids to Rutgers? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JBL55, wintergreen8694
  •  Rice: Bojo for breaking the "Don't be a dick" rule (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JBL55, shoeless

    Now if that were only possible for Sean Hannity and Michele Malkin.

  •  They turned out ok (4+ / 0-)

    So did Hitler, Mussolini, and Idi Amin.  

    Oops, did I invoke Godwin?

  •  Pathetic abused creatures (5+ / 0-)

    too dumb to know they were abused and humiliated and hit mercilessly as children.  I am older than all of them and was taught from infancy that the human body is not meant to be struck or hit - Ever.

    Malkin is reprehensible - her personality is repugnant.

    Hannity is an Asshole.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

  •  "My father hit me with a belt, I turned out okay!" (10+ / 0-)

    that should the the GOP's party motto.

    Barack Obama for President

    by looty on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:05:22 AM PDT

  •  The S & M fantasies by these two (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shoeless, devis1, Major Kong, Leap Year

    creep me out.

  •  Hannity's ratings are dropping FAST. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shoeless

    Let him continue his stupidity!

  •  They couldn't be more off-point. (9+ / 0-)

    Their being beaten by their parent(s) with a belt has nothng to do with grown men being assaulted by another grown man.

    "The fears of one class of men are not the measure of the rights of another." ~ George Bancroft (1800-1891)

    by JBL55 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:07:09 AM PDT

  •  i would be happy to see malkin and hannity (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shoeless

    beat each other to worn nubs, if they're so into beatings. i had my fill of spankings and sibling abuse early on, but it didn't stop affecting me.

    bring your own petard.

  •  Malkin is good at spankings? (5+ / 0-)

    Oh my God.  First, Ann Coulter (leather lady of the far right), and now this?

    What is it with right wing pundits and S&M?  Are they sizing up liberal Democratic public figures as potential submissives?

  •  On torture, conservatives were... (6+ / 0-)

    comparing what was going on at Gitmo to frat boy hijinks.

    These people are sick.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

    by richardak on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:16:31 AM PDT

  •  I hate these people (9+ / 0-)

    As a long time soccer coach and referee I see these guys coaching youth teams all the time. I'm not exaggerating, it's every weekend. They yell and scream angrily at young players - I'm talking about 12 year old girls and it gets worse as they get older. I'm dumbfounded why these men and women (yes, both) get angry at players.

    First of all, if a player isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing it's the coach's fault for not training them and putting them in a position to be successful at whatever it is they're supposed to be doing.

    But the worst part is often while a "coach" is screaming at the players the team manager (almost always one of the mothers) is sitting right next to the coach. Other times it's the highest ranking coach, the Director of Coaching, who is also either engaging in that same behavior or encouraging it by sitting there and not telling the coach to shut the hell up.

    This type of coach will never, ever, go away unless youth parents and coaching authorities take a stand and demand that their coaches stop abusing the players and for crying out loud, stop being angry at them.

    The guy in the video is atypical but he's definitely not that far from the norm, especially in highly competitive environments.

    [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

    by rabel on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:20:56 AM PDT

    •  And why is it tolerated in sports, anyway? (5+ / 0-)

      Excellent comment you made.    I am also a kids soccer referee and coach, and practice a "calm" method of coaching.  Our teams aren't always successful, but parents and their kids stay on the team for years and are very complimentary.  "You don't yell at the kids like other coaches" is what I hear most often.   I had some fathers pull their kids because I didn't yell enough; before they pulled them, they made up for it by yelling from the sideline.  I felt bad for those kids because they seemed frightened of their fathers.

      Can't imagine this being allowed in any environment other than sports.  Not music, not dance, not driver's ed, not the classroom, etc.

      Of course, yelling can happen a lot in a all venues (and I don't agree with that  lack of self-control either), but not physical violence.  

      My two cents of experience:  When I played high school football, we had a bastard of a coach.  Yell, scream, denigrate, challenge us to prove ourselves by going against him in drills.  (None of us did because it was like accepting the taunt of an out-of-control bully.)  The passive physical reaction of the Rutgers players in the video seemed that way.

      One event is still a legend at the school though it happened decades ago:  During halftime, he was playing with his watch while yelling at us, and then hurled that metal watch as hard as he could.  And it hit me.

      The assistant coaches talked to me afterwards and were greatly embarrassed.  The coach never said anything to me but was gone the next week.

      We went 0-10 on the season. Two years later and a different coach and we were undefeated.

      •  Like minds (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites

        I'm always happy to run into coaches with the same calm demeanor as myself and it's sad that it is so rare.

        I'd really like to pursue some way of making a change in society that tolerates these asshole coaches screaming at kids but I have no idea how to go about it. The trouble is, there are "positive" sports leagues out there but in my experience these leagues are marginalized and non-competitive with the larger leagues that compete at higher levels.

        What I'd love to do is somehow change the attitude of parents and directors that coaches yelling at players is acceptable, especially youth players, and even at the highest level of competition. Asshole coaches are certainly found in the recreational sports leagues and while they are tolerated they're not tolerated nearly as well as they are at the higher levels of play. You'll hear about recreational coaches getting run off or players leaving their teams somewhat regularly.

        At the higher levels of play the parents and Directors all seem to accept that screaming coaches are just the way it is and yelling at the players is the proper way to get them to compete and it's an acceptable motivating technique. Of course a lot of the parents would do the same thing since they have the same mindset as these coaches.

        I really don't know how to go about addressing this but I'm chock full of ideas and examples and practical experience.

        [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

        by rabel on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:20:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The parallel issue ... (5+ / 0-)

      ... at least for me as I read these comments is the tangential discussion about HOW MANY KIDS and PARENTS are so turned off by these group dynamics that they stay away from organized sports teams.

      I definitely got turned off by the time I was in the middle of junior high school.

      But that wasn't good enough for me to walk away.  One coach was also the regular gym teacher who one day came after me with a yard stick during gym class because he felt he needed to knock me down a peg.

      He turned me into a bigot.  Anytime I see a crewcut sportsman my knee-jerk reaction is crewcut=authoritarian=patriot=>BULLY!  Not rational, I know, but that's what the un-intended brainwashed message was.

      Years later I was with my father out in the community and we ran into him.  My father and this coach were talking cordially.  Meanwhile I was watching this guy.  He was absolutely seething with rage.  Whether it was at me or something else going on in his life I have no idea.  I just wanted to get the hell out of there.

      These guys have no idea how many lives they change beyond the teams that they coach, and in ways they never intended.

  •  Honestly, who gives a shit? (0+ / 0-)

    There's a world of more important matters to discuss. Who cares about what these two idiots have to say?

    collards, meat, butter, sourdough, eggs, cheese, raw milk

    by Tirge Caps on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:25:06 AM PDT

  •  The comments by Hannity and Malkin (2+ / 0-)
    HANNITY: My father hit me with a belt

    MALKIN: Same here! .. And with more than a belt.

    I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist; my understanding of how ego is formed and how it develops is largely shaped by my understanding of dharma, and by my observations of my own life and my experiences of uncovering and opening my heart.

    In my view, childhood traumas tend to stay with us into and through our adult lives.  They very much effect who we are as adults.  They often get buried early on as ego develops survival strategies for us as children to survive the oftentimes incomprehensible actions of the adults around us.  This is often manifested later in life as a closed heart; ego closeing over the heart in an effort to avoid getting hurt even further.  Thus those who suffer abuse as a child often find it difficult to open themselves to others as adults.  And the traumas remain buried within us only to surface later on causing much hurt.

    I don't know Hannity and Malkin personally; I don't know what they are like off camera.  But I've seen plenty of video, and it certainly appears to me that they both have a lot of anger, and that they both show little compassion and empathy for others.

    That they now admit to being beaten as children is not surprising.

    But this ...

    MALKIN: I have to tell you, I'm much better at administering spankings now than receiving them
    ... is disturbing.

    As a human being, I have compassion for all of my fellow sisters and brothers on this planet; and I especially have compassion for those who suffer abuse at the hands of others, especially children who suffer abuse at the hands of adults.

    Dharma (and I use this word very broadly encompassing non sectarian approaches to understanding who we are as human beings) teaches that we can have compassion for others because we know that they, as we, have suffered to some degree during their lives.  And again I don't know them personally, and I'm only conjecturing, but I'm guessing it wasn't pleasant being Hannity or Malkin as children, not if they were suffering physical abuse, and probably the mental abuse that went along with it.  That (as it appears may be the case) their hearts remain closed, they they continue to bury that hurt within them, that they denigrate others as a matter of course so that they don't have to face their own inner demons, is sad.

    Again this is just my view given my own understanding of these issues.  Others will have understandable and reasoned perspectives that will differ significantly.

    But from my perspective, given what I've seen of these two people in the many videos of them as adults, it is not surprising to learn that they suffered physical abuse as children.

    May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings be at peace.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Love one another

    by davehouck on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:28:54 AM PDT

  •  At least now we know what caused the slant in (0+ / 0-)

    Hannity's forehead.

  •  That's gold (4+ / 0-)

    pure comedy. Satire can't improve on that.

    Abuse is ok and if you don;t like it you a pansy liberal
    We should investigate does that denounce abuse
    I was abused and look at me (no irony)
    Me too and more than that and I'm good at spanking (no wink no drum roll)

    Only way to improve this is if they had been swinging shots of cheap scotch whole watching some weird 70s wrestling movie with a lot of close ups

  •  Was Malkin caught in a terrible sausage accident? (0+ / 0-)
  •  I don't know any parents (3+ / 0-)

    who would let a stranger hit or slap their children for any reason and if they would like Hannity and the anchor baby suggest then those people shouldn't be parents.

    When I was in school and paddling was still allowed my parents told the school that I was not to be paddled unless one of them was there in person.

    There was also a story the other day of a man being arrested for slapping a child who was out of control.

    I watched the Rice video and he was not just being a coach he was out of control and abusing the players. There is a difference that Hannity and TAB don't understand.

  •  Why is my alma mater always in the news... (0+ / 0-)

    ...for stupid shit.

    -sigh...-

    It is done. Four More Years.

    by mconvente on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:52:23 AM PDT

  •  Old-fashioned uncontrolled rage & physical abuse.. (3+ / 0-)

    …never hurt anybody, it just conditions young athletes to be abusive and violent towards anyone they think they can get away with inflicting it upon, you know like their girlfriends and other students.

     The sentiments of Malkin and Hannity are in fact post-civilization Neanderthal views, the kind of warped  perspective that lead to children being physically and sexually abused, and women being raped.

     Interesting that both of these media personalities admit to being abused as children, which helps explain how they see the world, and why they became what they are.  And since they think that physical abuse is okay, it implies that they could and likely have inflict physical abuse upon their own children.

     Imagine what different people they might be, if someone had protected them from their abusers.

     Perhaps this is how all rabid conservatives, and the sadism that underlies their ideology, are created. Why they spend their lives trying to inflict pain upon others, perhaps in an attempt to mitigate their own suffering, which obviously continues throughout their lifetime.

     Perhaps putting an end to child abuse will put an end to the kind of deeply dysfunctional pseudo-conservative  mental illness we see afflicting so many on the right today.

  •  LMAO (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Militarytracy

    These two need to be put on a boat together and set adrift in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

  •  What's next? (0+ / 0-)

    Belts at the Olympics?  If North Korea uses a belt on its athletes to encourage better performance is that still okay or is it only okay for Americans wielding authority?  What a constant freakshow the crazed Republicans and their yukking yaks (phunny how that rhymes with phucking hacks) are.

  •  If I committed Assault & Battery on adults.... (4+ / 0-)

    ...repeatedly and on videotape, I'd be arrested and charged.

    It's sad no one is talking about filing charges against Rice.  The players don't need to testify against him; the proof is on the video tape.  What he did was a crime; it wasn't self-defense.

    Are not the Rutgers Athletic Director and the Rutgers President required by law or by moral code to report a crime to the police and or the local District Attorney's office for which they have pretty convincing evidence took place by one of their employees?

    Privilege is going on here: I'm not sure how to parse it out, but it includes rich privilege, male privilegs, and the privilege of being a college coach.  

    Failure to Publicize Acts of Hatred Only Allows Them to Fester and Metastasize.

    by BoxerDave on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:09:42 AM PDT

  •  bye bye Rice (0+ / 0-)

    What, hitting people and calling them names is bad behavior? Tell that to all the bullies in grade school.

  •  Who did Malkin beat? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Militarytracy
    HANNITY: My father hit me with a belt, I turned out okay! Except in the minds of liberals.

    MALKIN: Same here! Oh, I certainly did. And with more than a belt. I'm sure the left thinks we are warped minds.

    I do believe Malkin just said she beat Hannity with more than a belt....

    Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them - Thomas Jefferson 30 July, 1816

    by Roiling Snake Ball on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:12:52 AM PDT

    •  Just because we all think Malkin is warped (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cosette

      doesn't mean she isn't warped.

      If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

      by Major Kong on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:35:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Never violence: Astrid Lindgren (6+ / 0-)

    A lovely story by the author of Pipi Longstocking

    Never violence: Astrid Lindgren

    I should like to tell all those clamouring for a more rigorous approach and tighter reins what an old lady once told me. She was a young mother in the days when people still believed in the idea of “Spare the rod and spoil the child” – or rather, she didn’t really believe in it, but one day when her little boy did something naughty, she decided he had to have a good hiding, the first one of his life. She told him to go out and find a suitably supple stick or rod for her to use. The little boy was away for a long time. He eventually came back in tears and announced: “I can’t find a rod, but here’s a stone you can throw at me.” At which point his mother also burst into tears, because it had suddenly dawned on her how her little boy must have regarded what was about to happen. He must have thought: “My mum wants to hurt me, and she can do that just as well by throwing a stone at me.”

    She threw her arms round him, and they spent some time crying together. Then she placed the stone on a shelf in the kitchen, and it stayed there as a permanent reminder of the promise she had made to herself at that moment: never violence!

  •  So much for people always crying "tyranny" (3+ / 0-)

    These are the very people considering expanded health care insurance as "tyranny", but they are ok with a coach that terrorizes and attacks the players under his governance, huh?

    What were we to expect from Hannity and Malking, decency and reasonable input?

  •  Just what you'd expect at FOX...INANITY (4+ / 0-)

    These basketball players were adults, not 3 year olds.
    I suppose that if Roger Ailes slapped Hannity around a bit to improve his media skills, and make him a better team player, he'd be OK with it. Hannity is used to such behavior...he turned out just fine.

    Life mirrors the magic of origami. Each fold, each decision we make, has purpose in form, creating a continually renewing stage for the beauty of a completed work of art. - G Lee Burk

    by glb3 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:23:50 AM PDT

  •  Hannity bullies his opponents (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JGibson, Leap Year

    I have seen and heard him gang up on his opposition with his acolyte Mark Levin. Thus, his defense of coach Rice's behavior does not surprise me.

  •  I heard about this story before I saw the video... (3+ / 0-)

    at first I thought "well lots of coaches use crude language, maybe firing him was an overreaction"... then I saw the video and my jaw hit the floor.

    How on earth can anyone defend that guy. He should never be allowed near a gym again.

    You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

    by Eric Stratton on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:27:08 AM PDT

  •  It is so ingrained in much of our culture (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Militarytracy, Cassandra Waites

    Locally we have had problems in high schools

    Brooks-Thomas played basketball at the University of Mississippi from 1982-85, said she went to college expecting her coaches to whip her if she messed up. She said she initially struggled when that didn't happen.

    "You develop a mindset that you're going to always be beat to play," she said.

    •  Alabama too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassandra Waites

      You have to make sure to sign a form EVERY year that they cannot whip your children in school or they can here without even notifying you that they are going to do it, did do it, and for what.  The super has a lawsuit against him right now though because they finally hurt someone so badly that medical care was required.

  •  Note who the guest is (0+ / 0-)

    It's always the same bunch of right-wing pundits.

    Hannity is perpetually "interviewing" Malkin, Coulter, Palin and the rest of the conservative junior varsity squad who don't rate their own shows.

    If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

    by Major Kong on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:33:57 AM PDT

  •  Did Malkin just give a glimpse into her (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wintergreen8694

    sex life?

    I have to tell you, I'm much better at administering spankings now than receiving them[.]
  •  Hannity: "My dad hit me with a belt -- (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cassandra Waites, Risen Tree

    "-- and I turned out okay!"

    That has got to be one of the most idiotic comments that anyone has ever made -- in the history -- about dads OR belts...

  •  if we could somehow (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Risen Tree

    eliminate hate speech hannity, malkin & fox would have nothing to say so naturally they are against the rutgers situation being resolved the way it has been.

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