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I am a gun owner. I own a LOT of them. I am a target shooter, and collector. I have a concealed carry permit, and yes I am a member of the NRA.  I am also a member of the ACLU. I figure they defend all the other amendments, and the NRA defends the 2nd. I am highly trained, certified, and responsible.

Please, let’s not immediately knee jerk, and jump all over me with the usual arguments, and attacks regarding the evil of guns and all the rest. It’s all been covered, and I’m trying to make a point here that I don’t want to get lost in the usual forest and trees rat hole that seems to happen.

I support background checks! I’ve not had a chance to review the Manchin-Toomey bill other than what’s been said on the news and on cable, but I’ll tell you now that if the NRA was in the room, it’s probably not too great of a bill! As a long time gun owner and purchaser let me tell you some things, and maybe dispel some myths, so that you can understand what REALLY does and does not need to be in a bill.

When Mad Wayne made his 1st news conference after Sandy Hook, he sent out an Email to all of us NRA member with a “How did I do?” feedback request in it. I told him he sounded like a total idiot, and he completely did not represent my position.  That the best thing the NRA could do is to help educate people about guns, and gun owners, and work toward sensible gun purchase practices.

Let me start with a few things that you may already know, but I put it here just so you are sure to be aware. Sorry if it’s basic, but I want folks to be on the same page.

1.    Magazines/Clips – They are reloadable! I don’t mean to insult your intelligence, but I have seen comments that seem to imply that these are 1 use items that are thrown out after they are expended. Sorry, but no. It doesn’t matter their capacity, they can be reused, and they can be refilled with bullets, and used again another day. So, if you ban “High Capacity Magazines” you are not banning them from the planet forever.  Just want you to understand that. Not trying to be obtuse.

2.    Internet Sales – Under current laws you can’t just log onto some site and buy a gun and have it mailed to your house. Sorry, no it does not happen! You CAN go to Craigslist, or some other site, and find a PRIVATE SELLER, and have them meet you somewhere and sell you a gun face 2 face, as a “private sale”, and that does not have to have a background check! THAT is wrong! As I can tell from the news reports this will still be allowed under the proposed bill. RED ALERT – Don’t be so happy with this bill if this is indeed still a loophole!

a.    Buying from auction sites or retailers must be sent to a holder of a Federal Firearms License (FFL), and they do a background check, and then you get your gun. Current law, good thing, in effect now.

A real background check bill needs to include coverage for all transactions. The ONLY exemption I would allow would be for family member to family member, or in the case of an estate/death. I don’t care if it’s person to person, or at a gun show, or whatever.

In NO CASES should a gun ever be sold to:

1.a convicted felon
2.a person with domestic violence issues
3.a person with outstanding restraining orders, or orders of protection on them
4.people on the terror watch list, or no fly list

When I sell a gun person to person I print out the forms that the ATF makes an FLL holder use to sell a gun and make the buyer fill them out completely. If they refuse, I won’t sell to them. I do this to protect myself. I won’t sell to a criminal, or other asshole. I don’t want a gun that has been put on the record that was sold to me to be used, down the line, to be used in a bad way, coming back to me, without complete records that show I sold it legitimately. If I could call the ATF and do a check, I would!

I think real, legitimate, honest, and responsible gun owners like myself all feel this way. Even the knee jerk NRA reactionaries I’ve spoken to over the last few months all come over to my view very quickly when I say, “do you want a bunch of criminal, and bad asses to make us look like criminals and irresponsible citizens?”

We ALL agree that “Straw Purchasers” are the lowest form of shite-slug. Anyone who would willingly buy guns and redistribute them to criminals should be halved and quartered in the public square. I’ve heard die hard NRA members come up with even more creative punishment for these slime devils.

The bottom line is that we need to take a VERY close look at this bill and be sure it REALLY does do something worth lauding. Unless we plug ALL the holes, it’s not worth it. Make sure you’re being factual and tilting at the right windmills.

If anyone wants to ask me questions, or get clarifications on the TRUTH of gun purchasing, and ownership, please feel free. If you just want to jump up my butt for being a gun owner, and not being for gun banning, or other histrionic topics, please don’t. Let’s find middle ground, OK?

I could continue this discussion on Large Magazines, and Assault Weapons, but I won’t.  Those topics get more nuanced, and perhaps I’ll approach those later. There’s a lot of emotion there, so we’ll open that on another day.

Be well all.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (13+ / 0-)

    You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

    by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 10:49:11 AM PDT

  •  I forgot the obvious (5+ / 0-)

    Of course the mentally ill should NEVER get a gun!

    You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

    by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:02:49 AM PDT

    •  I think Wayne LaPierre (5+ / 0-)

      stands a really good chance of being mentally ill.

      Why don't you quit the NRA?  I did.

    •  Great, is it just any mental illness or being (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kimbeaux, PavePusher

      adjudicated as such where you are declared a danger to self or others?

      While I would not anyone whom may be a danger to themselves or other getting their hands on a gun, I have a problem with this "mental illness" criteria thingy.

      It needs to be clarified.

      Why?

      Because under current NYS Law, ie the SAFE ACT. I am not eligible to own a firearm because I have a mental illness.  That mental illness is being a transgendered woman whom is also a recovered alcoholic (24+ yrs).

      I have not been adjudicated as such, nor have I been declared a threat to myself or others.  I have been denied a right without judge or jury.  I've been denied said right by decree.

      I have a problem with this.

      What's your solution or suggestion?  Should anyone whom may actually need help not get it for fear of being branded and then denied a right by decree, as I have been?

      Or should we have due process restored to this equation?  When and if I'm declared by a court of law as having a "mental illness", should I then be denied said right?

      Let's open this pandora's box together, shall we?

      http://www.nami.org/...

      Mental illnesses are serious medical illnesses. They cannot be overcome through "will power" and are not related to a person's "character" or intelligence. Mental illness falls along a continuum of severity. Even though mental illness is widespread in the population, the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion-about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 Americans-who live with a serious mental illness. The National Institute of Mental Health reports that One in four adults-approximately 57.7 million Americans-experience a mental health disorder in a given year

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) is the American Psychiatric Association's standard reference for psychiatry which includes over 400 different definitions of mental disorders

      There is disagreement in various fields of mental health care, including the field of psychiatry, over the definitions and criteria used to delineate various disorders. Of particular concern to some professionals is whether some of these conditions should be classified as 'mental illnesses' at all, or whether they would be better described as neurological disorders, or in other ways. Some items listed are ultimately removed: homosexuality was originally listed in the DSM, but was removed when the American Psychiatric Association officially stated that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities"

      Now, if anyone dares tell me that we haven't come for the guns, then they haven't been paying attention or are blatantly lying.

      In NYS, they have started taking the firearms from anyone with a "mental illness", period. Does it matter what that arbitrary illness is?  NOPE.

      Judge Orders Guns Returned to Man After Finding "Error" by State Police.

      BUFFALO, N.Y. (WKBW) Gun rights advocates were outraged this week when it was revealed that a Western New York man had his pistol permit suspended and guns confiscated because police believed he posed a threat due to a mental health condition.

      Attorney James Tresmond threatened to file a lawsuit in Federal Court claiming his client's health privacy and civil rights had been violated.

      It was reported that the unidentified man was taking a prescription for anxiety.

      The enforcement action started on March 29th when New York State Police asked the Erie County Clerk's Office to pursue revoking the man's pistol permit because he owned guns in violation of the mental health provision of New York's newly enacted guns law called the SAFE ACT.

      NOW, what's to stop them say next week claiming that anyone whom wishes to own a firearm is "mentally ill"? Do they not have the power to take their rights away without due process?

      YOU BET YOUR ASS.

      And let's be frank here, many Kossacks have accused the members of the RKBA's Group as being gun "nuts", including me.  Does it matter that I've never owned a firearm or have no intentions of ever doing so? NOPE.

      While you have an interesting diary here, maybe you could enlighten me on your position on these specific points I've made.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:17:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Excellent point. This should be subject to at (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea, PavePusher

        least the same standard as a 302:  the person whose rights are being limited must be determined to be a danger to himself or others.  Moreover, there should be a requirement to review this determination (yearly, perhaps?) in the case of someone who is an on-going risk.  

        Failure to recognize the nuances of this issue not only wrongly abridges the rights of our citizens, it acts as a deterrent to seeking help for mental illness, thereby increasing the likelihood of someone's becoming a danger to self or others.

        Socialist? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

        by Kimbeaux on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 05:32:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  There's no due process on the "terror watch (25+ / 0-)

    list" and no-fly list. People shouldn't lose rights on the basis of executive accusations - only by the due process of law. In fact, the Constitution says as much. This is especially true for largely-secret executive accusations like said watch lists.

    In fact, the original proposal to deny people on those watch lists their 2nd Amendment rights had a specific exemption: a waiver could be granted allowing them to pass a background check if a denial would tip them off that they're under investigation. This leads to the perverse situation where the people most likely to be terrorists, the ones the FBI is actively watching for such, getting weapons (to keep them from being tipped off that they're on the list) while the people least likely to be terrorists, those put on for crass political reasons or simple clerical errors, would be denied.

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:02:57 AM PDT

  •  Does the range you shoot at allow (5+ / 0-)

    you to use clips at all when firing any rifle more powerful than an LR15? I'm only asking because of the three ranges I have been a member of only one had an area for that is it was away from the general range and guests weren't allowed. You and I both know lives can be saved when a shooter is fumbling a clip into a gun and the smaller the clip the more likely it is that people could get away.

    To your second point, even if a few people still manage to buy a gun through a friend because that loophole might still be in the proposed legislation, the new requirement for background checks will greatly reduce the amount of guns sold to the wrong people. Even if that's only by one person per state per year that is a potential of (based on sandy hook) 1300 live that do not have to be needlessly wasted.

    This bill, albeit not perfect, is a good start and a path to stronger legislation down the road. Good luck selling your shit argument though.

    Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

    by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:05:54 AM PDT

    •  Standard capacity magazines don't fumble (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ER Doc, ban nock, BlackSheep1, gerrilea

      in a gun. They insert slick as snot. Reduced capacity magazines would do the same.

      Extended capacity (~30 for a pistol, 100 round drum for a semi- rifle) magazines, those fumble and jam, and often fail to feed.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:08:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That depends on the person, doesn't it? (6+ / 0-)

        Some one with little experience, in a what I image could be a nerve-racking experience, may not have as easy a time as you. And any amount of time between shots can save lives. I noticed you didn't actually answer my question though.

        Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

        by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:10:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i'm in agreement with you here - the adam (5+ / 0-)

          lanzas and the aurora shooter and the mall shooter fanasize, but when reality hits, the "speed" of their having to reload may be enough to allow someone to tackle the sucker.

          smaller clips mean extra weight having to carry MORE clips to get the same destructive results - and more time for people to escape the area.

          as a friend said once, the only reason for a hunter to have high capacity magazines would be to make hamburger in the field.  not productive!

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:50:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Designers try very hard to make the reloading (4+ / 0-)

          process smooth, easy, and foolproof. With just a little practice, it should be. I am not the diarist, but in answer to the question you initially posed, I am not aware of any range that restricts the size of the magazine used in any gun they allow to be used there. A rifle like an AR15 that uses detachable magazines normally won't fire without one inserted. Even if you are feeding rounds directly into the firing chamber individually for each shot, the presence of the magazine fills what would otherwise be a large hole when the action is open, making the process of inserting an individual round easier.
               Regarding the question of rifles more powerful than the AR15, most of the semiautomatic rifles used for deer hunting and the like, which fire rounds more powerful than the .556 NATO round used in most AR15s, aren't designed to use large-capacity magazines. My Remington 742 rifle, for example, which fires .308 caliber rounds, normally uses a four-round detachable magazine, although it can be modified slightly to use ten-round magazines. The Springfield M1A rifle used in some competitive shooting events, though, which uses the same caliber ammunition and could be used to hunt deer, is modeled after the former military M14, and is designed to use large magazines.
               Whether shooters actually load up full magazines depends some times on what is actually happening at the range. If the range is crowded with shooters sighting-in their rifles before deer season, when most shooters fire three to five rounds, then check their targets to adjust their sights, firing off thirty rounds at once will raise some eyebrows, and might get you asked to leave & come back another day. In some competitive events, such as trapshooting with shotguns, you normally only load one round at a time, no
          matter how many your gun will hold.
               Was this what you were asking?

          -7.25, -6.26

          We are men of action; lies do not become us.

          by ER Doc on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:00:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sounds like a design flaw to me. (0+ / 0-)
        Standard capacity magazines don't fumble  in a gun. They insert slick as snot.
        And one for which the manufacturer should be held liable.
        •  Sue a manufacturer for a product that works (7+ / 0-)

          as designed?

          "Reduced capacity" magazines will have the same form factor as standard capacity ones. They will feed every bit as quickly and reliably.

          And a 10-round limit stopped or slowed down neither Cho nor Harris.

          You'd make a criminal offense of possession of an object, or sue lawful manufacturers into bankruptcy, based on ideology not facts. I fail how to see how this is any different from any other prohibitionist movement.

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 03:18:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If you are trying to make a cogent point.... (0+ / 0-)

          you failed miserably.

          Your hate-mail will be graded.

          by PavePusher on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 03:01:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Uhhh (0+ / 0-)

      What's your argument?

      I want more harsh checks.

      Yeah, it's a hole filled start, OK, pass it, but please pass something more definitive.

      Why is it a "Shit argument" is it too harsh for you?
      I want EVERYONE to be checked, what's wrong with that?

      I can shoot with whatever mag I want at my range? Where do you live?

      You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

      by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:20:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't believe you. (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        Tom Seaview

        Why not post the link to your range so we can verify the rules.

        Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

        by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:26:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I see you're having trouble with this assignment (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kevskos, Urizen

          so here is an example of how to cut and paste the rules from your club's website into the comment box on dkos (pay close attention to rule number 8):

          Rifle Range Rules

          Safety is everyone’s responsibility. Each shooter will observe and comply with the following rules:

          1. Firearms will be unloaded, magazines removed and actions locked open, with a chamber flag inserted, at all times except when the shooter is in position on the firing line and the range is clear to fire.

          2. Firearms will be pointed in a safe direction at all times. Firearms on the firing line will be pointed directly down-range at all times.

          3. Firearms may not be handled nor may shooters approach the firing line during a cease-fire.

          4. Regular cease-fires are called by the Rangemaster or, in his absence, by mutual consent of all the shooters on the line. All firearms must be unloaded, magazines removed, actions locked open, with a chamber flag inserted, and all shooters standing behind the cease-fire line BEFORE a regular cease-fire is called and the cease-fire bell activated.

          5. Only AFTER a cease-fire has been called and the cease-fire bell turned on, may shooters proceed down-range to check and change their targets.

          6. The Rangemaster or, in his absence, the shooter who has called the cease-fire and activated the cease-fire bell is personally responsible for safely ending the cease-fire by insuring all shooters have returned to the cease-fire line and that the range is again clear. The bell will be de-activated by the same person who activated it.

          7. Each firing position on the firing line has a corresponding target frame directly down-range. Each shooter must shoot ONLY at an approved paper target, which has been properly hung on the target frame directly down-rangefrom his position.

          8. All centerfire rifles will be loaded one round at a time. Rimfire .22’s may be loaded with no more than 5 rounds at a time.

          9. Black powder shooters will insure that all containers of black powder are closed while shooting to prevent any possibility of a flash explosion. There will be no smoking within 10 feet of any black powder.

          10. Eye protection is required to be worn by all shooters. Ear protection is required to be used by everyone on the range.

          11. The hierarchy of authority on the ranges is; Rangemaster, Assistant Rangemaster, Temporary Rangemaster, Club Member, public shooter. Club Members who observe safety or range use violations without taking immediate action will be suspended.

          12. Each shooter is required to observe and comply with any other rules posted on the range. Absent specific rules all shooters will follow generally accepted firearm safety standards and use good common sense.As a firearm owner/user YOU are responsible for your actions.Shooters who endanger public safety will be prosecuted.

          13. Shooters who are unable to place their shots on their target may be asked to leave the range and not return until they have successfully completed appropriate training classes.

          14. Shooters who deliberately shoot the range baffles or supports will be charged for the damage and BARRED from the ranges.

          15. There will be absolutely no intoxicants allowed on WCW property. Violators will be BARRED from the facility.

          16. We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone and to inspect all firearms, ammunition and equipment brought to this facility.

          PLEASE NOTE THAT SHOOTERS ARE BEING MONITORED AND RECORDED BY CLOSED-CIRCUIT VIDEO

          Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

          by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:44:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's a shit-tastic range. nt (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tom Seaview, gerrilea, FrankRose

            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

            by KVoimakas on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:58:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's a great range. Hilariously, all the RW (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kevskos, Urizen

              types have no problem with the rules.

              Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

              by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:22:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  These are the rules I have problems with: (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tom Seaview, psilocynic, gerrilea

                7. Approved paper target? And only one? No thanks.
                8. How do you practice move and shoot? If this is a blanket rule, for even when you're the only person on the line, that's just shitty.

                The rest look very familiar.

                Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                by KVoimakas on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:25:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Those were the rifle range rules. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kevskos

                  The club is huge and they have several ranges. I don't really ever use the hand gun I own so I don't know how that range works.

                  Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

                  by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:39:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  KVoimakas: only a range-issued paper target (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gerrilea

                  where I go. One per day, but you can pay once for all day -- they will let you back in. Practice move-and-shoot? Um, not happening.

                  LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                  by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 05:24:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Guess I'm spoiled. nt (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BlackSheep1, gerrilea, PavePusher

                    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                    by KVoimakas on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 06:01:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  yep. They restrict caliber (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gerrilea, KVoimakas

                      no handguns bigger than .50, no rifles bigger than .22LR. (As in, no .22 Mag, no .22Hornet, no .223 either.)

                      No barricades. No rapid fire (although they define rapid-fire pretty loosely, actually: I didn't get dinged for emptying the .22LR semiauto pistol in the same time the revolver took, and then later it took me about the same length of time to empty the rifle. I shot tighter with the long gun and the wheel gun than with the Browning.)

                      LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                      by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 07:31:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  kind of surprised (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        BlackSheep1

                        I never owned a gun when I lived in Texas, but I always imagined the ranges were less restrictive than in the SF Bay Area. Yet they sound to be about the same. Except that the  indoor ranges closest to me used to have indoor rifle ranges where any non-.50 caliber rifles were allowed, then only .223/5.56 were allowed, and now only .22LR rifles are allowed.

                        Though I've only ever been to one range where I couldn't use as many targets as I wanted. And that was for a day of M1 Garand lessons and competition (somehow I placed respectably despite my front sight near falling off my first few shots): the range was outdoors and set up for 200 yard shooting with big reusable targets at the end. Also, we were allowed (and in fact, required) to shoot from prone and sitting positions at that range.

                        •  this is an indoor place (0+ / 0-)

                          open to the public. There used to be an outdoor place, but they're "members only" and "must be invited" now. And they sponsored a sign at the edge of town that was sickening. I'm kinda proud they never got a dime from me.

                          LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                          by BlackSheep1 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 04:10:44 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Rules where I most commonly go: (0+ / 0-)

            http://ccgovernment.carr.org/...

            The Range Officer is in charge of the range at all times and their decision/discretion is FINAL in all cases.

            The Range Officer will orient you to the facility at your first visit.

            Full automatic and rapid firing in NOT PERMITTED. A minimum of a 2 second delay MUST be observed between rounds.

            Ammunition and load limitations: Handguns and rifles will not exceed 50 caliber (except for Muzzle loaders). Military Tracers, armor piercing rounds, and BMG’s are NOT PERMITTED. Shotguns must have a front and adjustable rear sight, and only a single projectile type slug is permitted. ABSOLUTELY NO bird or buck shot.

            Firearms shall only be loaded at the firing line, while the line is HOT, with the muzzle pointed down range at all times (with the exception of muzzle loaders - Range Officer will inform these shooters of proper protocol).

            When the line is cold (or a cease fire is called) all shooters must stop shooting immediately and all firearms must be unloaded, magazine must be removed, slides back, and actions open. Range Officer will give the command of “All Clear” and at that time shooters will be allowed to go down range to change their targets. At this time there will be ABSOLUTELY NO handling of firearms.

            Eye and ear protection MUST be worn at all times while on the firing line.

            Those under the age of 18 must be accompanied and supervised at all times by an adult over the age of 21.

            Only approved paper targets attached to stationary frames are permitted. Angle firing is not permitted, shooters bench and target position must correspond.

            Facility identification badges must be displayed while on the premises. Badges are not to be loaned or transferred to another person at any time. I.D. is required.

            Alcohol and drugs are strictly PROHIBITED. Anyone suspected of being under the influence will absolutely not be permitted to use the facility.

            No pets allowed on the premises.

            Smoking is not allowed in any structure at the facility.

            Spectators shall remain clear of and behind the firing line at all times.

            No littering. Individuals and groups are responsible for keeping the area clean; this includes policing brass.

            These are pretty standard for most pistol/rifle ranges.  
          •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

            I don't know anyone who'd go to a range with rules like #4 (apparently requiring one to be precognitive) and #8.  

            This can only drive people to shoot at wild-cat ranges with no controls, in an effort to avoid over-control.  Good job.....  sigh.

            Your hate-mail will be graded.

            by PavePusher on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 03:05:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  My range allows all types of magazines (4+ / 0-)

          Only major restriction is no rapid fire.  

          "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

          by Texas Lefty on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:36:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  HR for accusations of dishonesty (0+ / 0-)

          I go to a range where you can shoot any size magazine on every lane.
          You can call me a liar too, if you want, but it won't matter.

          Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

          by Tom Seaview on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 01:29:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  So, praytell, what is the "ultimate" goal here? (0+ / 0-)
      is a good start and a path to stronger legislation down the road.
      The shit argument you present is you'll gonna have to prove to there will be 1300 lives saved.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:20:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Point About High Capacity Clip Banning (10+ / 0-)

    is to force mass shooters to break more often for reloading, to allow victims more chance to escape or the legendary Good Guy With Gun more chance to intervene. And I think everyone understands that banning common equipment won't have much immediate effect on those determined to use it for mayhem. But you have to start somewhere.

    I'm not sure all felons need to be banned from owning firearms. Violent felons certainly; an embezzler though?

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:08:29 AM PDT

    •  the ease of which the "felon" tag is added is (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Urizen, rivercard, Kevskos, Kimbeaux

      a whole 'nuther topic, isn't it.

      "felony" possession of ... blah blah blah...

      there are so many things in this nation that need overhauling - and that is one of them - but another discussion for another day.

      then we have the "violent" offenders (thinking domestic violence) whose "felony battery" charges get dropped to a misdemeanor and they can legally purchase the gun they use to kill their targets.  

      perhaps the criteria should simply be conviction for violent and dangerous behavior, whether misdemeanor plea bargaining - it should be the act that influences whether or not someone can purchase firearms.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:54:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  actually anything DV tagged whether misdemeanor (6+ / 0-)

        or felony removes gun rights and makes you a prohibited possessor.

        Any Domestic Violence conviction of any kind makes you a prohibited possessor and you will fail the NICS required for any dealer sale.

        It also applies to private sales under current law as anyone who knows, or has reason to know, the buyer is prohibited may not legally make the sale....ie, no legal wink and nod sale to the neighbor whose wife always has a black  eye...

        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
        Emiliano Zapata

        by buddabelly on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 03:38:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  good to know - i was vaguely aware of that. (0+ / 0-)

          the problem is now how to remove guns from those with the dv tag... and, is it federal or state regulated?

          and, fyi, please give some support to alicia's voice - our own beloved zwoof lost his daughter to gun violence by her abuser.  this organization works to give women support in escaping this vicious situation.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 03:50:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Gooserock: I kinda don't like the wording on (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea

      "order of protection" because it sounds to me like the person needing protection will be banned from owning a firearm. Is that how it does work?

      LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 05:26:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't know about everywhere, but in California: (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1, gerrilea, PavePusher

        Every restraining order includes the requirement that the restrained party dispose of all firearms within 24 hours (either by selling to an FFL or turning them into local law enforcement) and forbids ownership of either firearms or ammunition for the duration of the order.

        This is only required of the restrained party, though, not the restraining party.

    •  Are you sure it would make a diffrence? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea

      Magazines can be quickly changed.  

      Here is a video demonstrating it:  http://www.youtube.com/...

  •  Good Diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    psilocynic, Meteor Blades

    until

    halved and quartered in the public square.
    you made this barbaric statement.  I bet your gun buddies that have more creative views also have creative views of ways of how to get rid of liberals too.  
    •  Yes (2+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackSheep1, gerrilea
      Hidden by:
      psilocynic

      It's a dramatic statement, but people who would supply criminals with weapons on purpose, for money. What would be a good punishment for them?

      Slap them on the wrist, a stern talking to? Harsh words?
      These people are below contempt. they are worth our most harsh punishment.

      Sorry if that offend your sensibilities.

      You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

      by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:15:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You betray your ignorance (2+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Kevskos, Urizen
        Hidden by:
        gerrilea

        more than you offend anyone's sensibilities here.

        people who would supply criminals with weapons on purpose, for money. What would be a good punishment for them?
        I want you to know why you got my HR (and it wasn't for the obvious grammatical error in that statement up there); anyone who thinks public executions are a reasonable form of punishment has no business on this site. In fact, you probably should call yourself American because the constitution you profess to love (I don't believe you're an ACLU member, btw) protects us from that kind of thing.

        Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

        by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:23:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh Well (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea

          Have it your way....

          I knew I was going to get pilloried for my post, glad you proved my thinking.

          A spelling freak too, my favorite people...

          You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

          by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:26:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I read your statement below (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1, gerrilea, Kimbeaux
          anyone who thinks public executions are a reasonable form of punishment has no business on this site.  
          as issuing an HR because you disagree with a person's point of view and are trying to pass judgement that they are not Liberal (enough) or in a particular way that you demand.  

          Then you say:

          In fact, you probably should call yourself American
          I assume here you meant to say, SHOULDN'T call, which borderlines on an insult and more strongly affirms that your basing your HR on disagreement.

          Are you really sure you want to issue an HR for this?

        •  psilocynic - as a gun owner, you could ADD to (9+ / 0-)

          the dialogue and discussion if you keep the personal references out - i, for one, would like to see a discussion on gun regulations and how to make them work, but when the dialogue starts taking on a personal attack style, then the issue is lost in the resulting pushback.

          you have something to contribute - as does the diarist and many others who start out well on this topic - please.  for once, can we stay on topic?

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:42:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  i'm removing my hr downthread of your comment (0+ / 0-)

          - would you consider removing yours here in an effort to find common ground?

          i've also asked another poster to do the same - and, perhaps, for once, we could all back away from the hr's in this discussion.  we are actually making some progress here, i think!

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 02:23:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Shameful HR, please remove it. (0+ / 0-)

          You HR'd for disagreement and then called the poster a liar for the second time.

          You know what? I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU AND a member of the RKBA group here, despite the ACLU's factually inaccurate stand on the 2nd A.

          I took the "public execution" part as snark and I've never read this posters writings before.

          You've created a red herring, abused your status and made personal attacks against a user here.

          Have an HR on me and BTW, I'm reporting this abuse of your trusted status.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:32:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Do you have some evidence to support this (0+ / 0-)

          opinion:  "I don't believe you're an ACLU member, btw"?  Membership in the ACLU is hardly a farfetched position for a kossack.

          Socialist? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

          by Kimbeaux on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 05:23:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Twenty (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        psilocynic, rivercard

        years in a safe and secure prison where they get education and rehab so they can become productive citizens when they are released.

        Individual cases need different sentences.  That is what a real judicial system does.

        •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

          I assumed the diarist language was hyperbole/exaggeration as we don't actually carry out that type of punishment as far as I know.

          But as a hypothetical, what if the person sold weapons to someone they knew were likely to use these weapons in a violent manner(i.e. drug cartel) and they did - could this not be considered  aiding and abetting to murder? That is in some states I believe is subject to death penalty.

          For the record, I don't support death penalty because of the biased manner in which it is applied and the potential for even one innocent person to be murdered by the state.

  •  You lose me with "member of the NRA" (7+ / 0-)

    The NRA doesn't represent you or the views you espouse in this diary.  The NRA is clearly a shill for corporate gun profits.

    If more responsible gun owners like yourself would divorce yourself from the NRA it would help move us toward responsible gun laws.  

    •  If I could (0+ / 0-)

      I'd Un-apply, but I'm a member, so what?
      I believe what I believe?

      Who are you Joe McCarthy?

      You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

      by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:23:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  defensive much? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kevskos, tytalus, psilocynic, Urizen

        so what?

        your membership is used by NRA as an example of the support they have ("we have _ members") and used in fundraiser and lobbying for policies you say you don't support.  

        My point is just that you believe something which is different from the group to which you belong.  

        You really seem to take the 'straw man' style of arguing to a high level. Just an observation and opinion.  

        •  Dick Much? (1+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          MsSpentyouth
          Hidden by:
          Mokurai

          Everything I wrote proves I am completely NOT in their camp, but as many of the ASSHOLES on this blog do, they see one word or phrase and go off into the woods...

          Don't read the blog, don't have the brain to understand what they've read, but I say a word, ot phrase, and I'm gonna phreak...

          You're a dick.

          I'm trying to HELP the cause to point out how to make this bill STRONGER, but you all just go off in your knee jerk bubble, no thought, directions, I should HR your for being brainless!

          You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

          by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:47:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  lol u mad? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kevskos, Urizen

            This bill could be made stronger by banning all clips over 5 rounds. Are you okay with that?

            Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

            by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:51:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure (0+ / 0-)

              Why not. The bill is about background checks, but if you want to amend magazines, that's fine.

              You still are a dick

              You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

              by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:53:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And you're still an ignorant, lying fuckstain. (1+ / 2-)
                Recommended by:
                Kevskos
                Hidden by:
                Mokurai, gerrilea

                At least try to be creative with your insults. It's like I'm talking to a 7th grader.

                Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

                by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:55:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  over the line here. hr'd. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rivercard, BlackSheep1, BachFan, gerrilea

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:34:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  i've removed my hr after asking others to stop (0+ / 0-)

                    using them in this diary - we are making progress here - i think we can find some good common ground if we take the time to listen to each other.

                    thanks, all...

                    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                    by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 02:29:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The obvious, direct insults should be HRed (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gerrilea

                      The "I can't believe how stupid your comment is" remarks can stay, as far as I am concerned, since they are about the comments.

                      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

                      by Mokurai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 03:56:20 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  the reason i've asked for hr's to be removed is to (0+ / 0-)

                        try to start fresh in this and other diaries - it is a way to back off of strong emotional reaction to a poster's comment and try to get folks to talk about issues instead of each other.

                        i don't think we are a "rude" community on the whole - even in RL, i don't think people INTEND to be "rude" - they just don't think of how their actions are perceived.

                        yesterday, i was about to pull into a parking space - was doing a u-turn to park when someone pulled into the space going the wrong way to get it first.  it was an AHA! moment.  the space was more important than the resulting impact it had on another living human being.

                        their position was more important than the rudeness of their actions.  this made me stop and thing about anonymnity - both in our cars and on the net.  we can't SEE how people are impacted by our decisions, we only know how WE feel - offended, insulted, relieved to get "it" first...

                        it is this isolation that we are in that makes us say and do things that we would NEVER do face to face with another person.  the anonymous recipient of our words/actions doesn't matter - as long as they stay "anonymous".

                        just words to think about - as i realize i need to "book it" to get to the barn and back to get a parking space tonite before the street fills up and i have to park blocks away - again.

                        catch ya later...

                        e

                        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                        by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:10:10 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It'd be nice if but until the behavior is allowed (0+ / 0-)

                          it will continue.

                          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                          by gerrilea on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:35:51 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  why not give it a try. civility starts within (0+ / 0-)

                            each one of us.  isn't it up to us, as adults, to manage our own behavior?

                            i would like to at least see this site TRY to tone down the rhetoric, wouldn't you?

                            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                            by edrie on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 03:05:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Until the people that have engaged in this (0+ / 0-)

                            behavior are held accountable how can there be an adult conversation?

                            We members of the RKBA group have been attacked brutally, games played with us by specific users and nothing from the Admins.  The behavior continues day in and day out but when we do what they do, we're called bullies and then attacked and HR'd into oblivion.

                            The one tool we've been granted as trusted users is HR'ing the abuse.  Community moderation, right?  That's being adult like and managing the bad behaviors.

                            Review my own diary of 1-27-13.

                            And I really don't appreciate the innuendo that I'm not being an adult here, btw.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 06:42:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i am not directing any innuendo toward you - (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            rather i am simply pointing out that as long as we (general pronoun "we") continue to fight one another, this will never end.

                            being the first to stand down isn't easy - but someone has to try.

                            hr'ing for differences in opinions don't solve the problem of what to do about the violence in this country.  using inflammatory language doesn't resolve anything.  i'm not singling out one side or the other - it is coming from both directions - and those of us in the middle are simply walking away.  the problem is that as this escalates, something bad will happen - like kos finally deciding enough - then both sides will be cleared from the site.

                            i would hate to see that happen because all sides have something to offer - we just all need to find a way to communicate with each other without name-calling, baiting, hr'ing, fighting.

                            i'm willing to try - i hope more will follow.

                            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                            by edrie on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 07:20:49 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  That's way over the line (0+ / 0-)

                  you should probably say something to whoever you addressed that comment, like "sorry got carried away".

                  How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                  by ban nock on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 05:32:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  please - instead of making this personal, (6+ / 0-)

            it would be good to see a real discussion of this issue for a change.

            your diary started off on the right track - how about getting back to the issues instead of the emotions.

            i'm asking the same of other participants, too.
            thanks.

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:38:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  instead of analyzing the diarist's motives - (4+ / 0-)

          why not look at the issues he raises.  it's time for a dialogue - not a confrontation and fight - if we really want change to happen!  how about it?

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:39:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  this diarist shows no desire for a dialogue (0+ / 0-)

            I pointed out that being a member of the NRA did not comport with his positions. He called me Joe McCarthy (and doesn't appear to take the time to look at usernames to differentiate who he's even talking to).  

            Could someone argue that it's important for moderates to remain members of the NRA and fight to change it, so that it accurately represents its own members on reasonable gun laws? Yes, someone could make that argument and have a dialogue. But it's certainly not going to happen in here....

            I appreciate your efforts edrie.

            •  it can happen in here if we want it to.... (0+ / 0-)

              what i find that helps in furthering the dialogue is to leave out the personal.

              none of us really can ascribe motivation to another because we're not in their shoes... we can only come from our own perspectives.

              that is a good arguement about staying within the nra to change it - i often make a similar argument about the democratic party.

              it is only from within an organization that we can really hope to effect change.

              a prime example of his is citizenk's excellent catch about how the unions saved american airlines from being bain'd out of existence!  within - it works!  it's harder, but it is doable!

              perhaps more responsible gun owners are the answer to the insanity that is represented by this nra... i seem to remember it was a "hostile takeover" that drove responsible gunowners out of leadership.

              well, that works both ways!  numbers matter!

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 02:18:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Is is not the case that the diarist shows (0+ / 0-)

              no desire for a dialogue. I concede that he isn't very good at it. We could enlarge this discussion to include facts, rather than trading insults.

              Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

              by Mokurai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:17:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  The NRA doesn't represent the views of the (0+ / 0-)

      majority of its members on background checks, according to the two polls this year of NRA members.  It has moved from representing the interests of its membership to representing the interests of its large financial contributors.  

      Public discussion by NRA members of their disagreements with NRA policy works to "move us toward responsible gun laws" by informing the non-member public--and our representatives--that there is broad-based support for background checks.  

       

      Socialist? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

      by Kimbeaux on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 05:19:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, let's just hope nothing too onerous (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kevskos

    is put into place that might hamper the 67 million worth of gun sales that took place during Obama's first term.

    heck, without all that economic activity (and perhaps the frackin boom) the Great Recession would probably have long since turned into the Great, Great Depression.

  •  You can never "plug all the holes." Opposing (5+ / 0-)

    a bill because it is not perfect is either silly or cynical.

    Further, affiant sayeth not.

    by Gary Norton on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:24:41 AM PDT

    •  I didn't say (6+ / 0-)

      I opposed the bill!
      I said be aware it's not what you think it is!
      I'm ALL FOR IT!
      PLEASE PASS IT!

      But be aware, it won't solve the problem unless it contains the issues I cite.

      JESUS people, I'm trying to HELP!

      You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

      by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:30:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, I can see that you are trying to help (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BachFan

        But you are wrong on the core issue. Improving background checks will help, even with some loopholes remaining.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:19:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How? If there is no registration? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PavePusher

          How does the cop on the beat know when the person passed a background check? Are they given "receipts" showing this?  How long are they good for, if they are given?

          Does the background check expire in a month, 3 months, a year?

          How many drug dealers do you know will go into a Gun Shop and voluntarily have a background check done on them?  How many convicted criminals will? How many don't even know they are on some list somewhere?

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:41:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You forgot "law-abiding." (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kevskos, tytalus, psilocynic, Urizen

    Because we all want to hear about gun owners who are law abiding.  You know, like < < insert name of mass shooter here > > was, up until that instant when he wasn't.

    As to your numbered points:

    1.  This is a long-term problem and it will be a long term solution.  I don't think anyone believes a magical law will be passed and * * poof! * * America's gun problem will be fully and completely solved.  On the other hand, I do believe I owe my grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and beyond a better nation when the guns and magazines most people see are rare, and mostly corroded, inoperable museum pieces of a past, deadlier, time.  I'm willing to start today, even if  it may be generations before things start to improve.

    2.  I agree that private sales should be banned. I believe we should require people to go through a licensed dealer as a broker, with all appropriate and relevant information kept in a database permanently, and have lifetime loss of firearm ownership privileges for anyone caught in an illegal transaction or with an unregistered weapon. If caught again, we can introduce them to the county jail or state pen. No loopholes for intrafamily transitions or estates.  Sorry.

    Do I think no. 2 will happen?  Maybe in 50 or 100 years or so, as demographic trends continue on their current path.

    •  i own a gun. nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackSheep1

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:56:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

        •  and that is what america is about - choice. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Texas Lefty, BlackSheep1

          responsible choices are what we are debating - and how to make those choices wisely.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 03:48:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, actually we are debating about (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            crose

            the people who make the most irresponsible choices, such as leaving unlocked and loaded guns where children can get at them, and about criminals, the insane, Conspiracy Theorists, and the suicidally depressed.

            We are debating about gun deaths approaching the levels of automobile deaths, and in many cases not requiring training, testing, and licensing of guns, gun dealers, or gun owners.

            Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

            by Mokurai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:37:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and... isn't that about making choices wisely? (0+ / 0-)

              i don't see how we are disagreeing on this.

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 07:14:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Will this stop the 67% of those deaths from (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PavePusher

              suicide from happening???

              NOPE.

              And Conspiracy Theory is now a problem??? One that should deny a person from exercising a right?  IS there a law against CT on the books somewhere???

              KOS doesn't want any "CT" here but that's not the law of the land, is it???

              I detest any right being "regulated" by arbitrary "standards".  Why? Because they can change to whatever the next person who gets into office decides.

              That's not Democracy, that's Tyranny by Decree.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:45:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I presume you're aware (0+ / 0-)

                That there's a correlation between guns and successful suicide?

                A key conclusion about those who attempt suicide:

                “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”
                emphasis mine

                Except for those, of course, who happen to have unwisely invited firearms into their (soon to be truncated) lives.

                Maybe instead of getting so worked up about exercising that particular right, you might want to step back and ask yourself: If I were to design an ideal policy with respect to firearms, would I really end up where the U.S. is today?  With our plethora of firearms, accidental shootings, and horrific (and climbing) rate of gun deaths?

                I wouldn't think so. Stated another way: I wouldn't think any honest, intelligent, and objective person would think so, either.

                •  Your circular argument doesn't work. (0+ / 0-)

                  Isn't what you just did called "begging the question"?

                  #1, I don't own any firearms and never have.

                  #2 To answer your question. If I were to design a policy it would include addressing the reasons why a person becomes so desperate that they become violent.

                  That said, how about ending unfunded resource wars, using said monies to fully fund free mental health care, not a for-profit health system.  Ending the racist drug war that has generationally destroyed the African American family.  Create living wage jobs by ending NAFTA, GATT and our participation in the WTO.  Releasing all non-violent drug offenders, retrain them into those living wage jobs helping rebuild our war torn inner cities.  Welcome them back into our society as free men and women, giving them a stake in it all once again.

                  Dismantle the School to Prison pipeline.  Teach our children critical thinking, peaceful dispute resolution techniques.  Teach peaceful coexistence and act as a nation peacefully.

                  Dismantle the Military Industrial Complex, put the bastards in jail for their crimes against humanity, crimes against nature and crimes against the American people.

                  Throughout this process we will be restoring the American dream and ensuring safety and prosperity for generations to come.

                  And I tell you what, once these things are accomplished, we'll have no need for a "gun policy" because Americans won't hate each other anymore.  Those truly in need of help will get it and we'll all be much safer and richer, both spiritually and economically.

                  How's that for a "policy initiative"?

                  NOW, as for your "honest, intelligent and objective person" theory.

                  HERE, I'll leave that to the professionals.

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  Suicide and homicide cannot be conflated. (18+ / 0-)

                  As I have mentioned before, I have taught a doctoral level course on Thanatology, which is the scientific study of death and dying.  A substantial part of the course material is on suicide, which includes motive, methods, intent and precursors.  

                  I can tell you with reasonable certainty that if all firearms in existence were to suddenly vanish, the suicide rate would change very little, if at all. The problem with suicide is motive and intent, not method.  If one way is thwarted, another will be found.  I know from personal experience, including keeping up with the research literature, that if a person is determined to kill themselves, there is virtually no way to prevent it.

                  I seriously think you need to go back to the drawing board here and start over.

                  We've been discussing these issues for a very long time here.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 09:37:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'll trust Harvard researchers (0+ / 0-)

                    Who have studied this at length over an anonymous poster on the Internet. Statistics do not back up the opinion voiced by your "source."

                    But hey!  Find your backup wherever you can, if it makes you feel better. Even call noncircular circular, if you wish.

                    Some of what you wrote in the first part of your comment is why I'm engaged in politics in the first place.  At the same time, I refuse to turn a blind eye to the ridiculous availability of firearms and the horrific harm they cause in our society.

                    You may be fine with it.  I'm not.

                    And I could not care less whether you own firearms or not. Anyone, and that includes you, who argues against increased regulation of firearms in our society is doing nothing more than licking the fetid spittle off Wayne Pierre's stinking chin.

                    And I'm certain at night, he chuckles a bit about it as he drifts off to sleep.

                    •  Making this discussion about me personally (0+ / 0-)

                      means you really don't have a legitimate position.

                      That's okay, I can accept your failure to discuss and I'll move on.

                      Feel good legislation will not stop violence in this society.  

                      Real reform can and will.

                      I support real tangible goals that will actually save millions for generations to come.

                      Out of the 33,000 firearm deaths each year 19,000+ are suicides.  The other 16,000 will be ignored by this "feel good" legislation.  The other 600,000 that attempt suicide will also be ignored.

                      This "feel good" legislation will create an instant black market for weapons.  Let's talk again in 5 yrs and see how many gun deaths we still have.  

                      The "anonymous" poster I quoted is anything but.

                      http://jonathanturley.org/...

                      And BTW, going to Harvard really doesn't mean much to me.  Don't we have a Harvard Law Graduate and Constitutional Professor that just happened to become POTUS?

                      ACLU Report On Obama & Civil Liberties: Worse Than Bush

                      You need to bring better credentials to this table for me to even consider your position even close to being valid.

                      Good luck with that.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sat Apr 13, 2013 at 07:08:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  According to statistics on demographic shifts (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      crose

      and generational changes, almost anything in American politics could change within the next decade. A straight extrapolation of recent trends says that the Republican Party could cease to exist, like the Federalists and the Whigs.

      On guns we are way past the tipping point measured by public opinion. The number of people owning guns has been in steady decline, while certain segments among the remaining owners, including anti-government militias, survivalists, and conspiracy theorists, buy ever more guns and ammo. The numbers are growing for populations in favor of background checks, even gun registries, gun safety research as a health issue, and other measures that the courts tell us do not infringe on the Second Amendment, no matter what the Conspiracy Theorists claim to think.

      What has been missing is organization. We now see lots of organizing in favor of gun safety laws, including putting money into elections and winning. So it could change sooner, because NRA or GOA support is starting to become an electoral liability in a widening area of the country as both organizations double and triple down on the insanity, and preach lie to a diminishing segment of the population.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:31:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes and YES. Thanks. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MsSpentyouth, edrie, BlackSheep1
    You CAN go to Craigslist, or some other site, and find a PRIVATE SELLER, and have them meet you somewhere and sell you a gun face 2 face, as a “private sale”, and that does not have to have a background check! THAT is wrong! As I can tell from the news reports this will still be allowed under the proposed bill. RED ALERT – Don’t be so happy with this bill if this is indeed still a loophole!

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:43:03 AM PDT

  •  this is a reasoned and well-written dialogue (12+ / 0-)

    on a topic that seems to get much hyperbole and angst.

    it's worth a read - and the points are worth considering...

    i still support the proposed law, but mrqa brings up realling interesting points here.

    thank you for adding some reasoned words to this discussion!

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:47:22 AM PDT

    •  Thank You (8+ / 0-)

      I'm trying to help the cause! I want these loopholes to be closed! I don't think this bill does this.

      I think we should be FOR this bill, but we should be for making things MORE difficult for sellers!

      You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

      by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:51:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You said this: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kevskos
        Sorry, but no. It doesn’t matter their capacity
        And that's not true. Over 16 kids could have been saved if the clip used only held ten rounds.

        Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

        by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:54:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh go home (0+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          Hidden by:
          Kevskos

          Yes, I understand. You're a I hate all guns everywhere, all the time, make them all go away!

          Got it.

          Not gonna help. Isn't gonna happen. Do you have a magic wand? If you do, wave it please.

          Otherwise, let us grown up deal with the realities of this.

          You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

          by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:58:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Would you like me to list the guns I own? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kevskos

            I probably have more than you. I have never needed more that 5 rounds when I used to hunt. I mostly shoot target now but I still shoot clay once in a while. Oh, and I just picked up a new rimfire with an extended barrel because I'm shooting long distance lately. But yeah, I'm a hate all guns kinda guy, huh?

            Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

            by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:02:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What exactly is your problem? (0+ / 0-)

              OK Spanky....
              Lay it out....
              What is you issue with my post?

              I'm ALL for background checks. I want STRONGER checks that is in the current proposal.

              What is the issue you have with my post and why are you being suck a dick?

              Lay it out?

              Here's your big chance...
              Go for it....

              You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

              by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:06:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Who said anything about hunting? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psilocynic, noway2, BlackSheep1, gerrilea

              Sport hunting should have limited capacity, sure. Pest hunting (say, feral hogs) should have no capacity limit. Self defense situations, same. Competition, same.

              Do you do 3 gun or IDPA or IPSC? I'm a fan of IDPA personally. Then again I shoot a 1911, so 'high capacity' is 10 rounds in the stick.

              Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

              by KVoimakas on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:22:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I also have a 1911. But it's really old and I (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kevskos

                don't use it. I'm a member of nssf. I'm just starting to do long distance and haven't joined any other associations. I don't know why you would need more than 5 rounds for hog. I've hunted boar in FL 3 times, twice with a casull 454 (5 round max) and once with pitties and a knife. Absolutely horrifying and I never want to do it again. I'll stick to fowl for the time being.

                Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

                by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:36:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  wild boar are extremely dangerous - (and, btw, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psilocynic

                  extremely tasty, too!)

                  i cannot imagine being in a confrontation with one.  where i used to live, we found tracks (snuffled ground) all around where we walked our dogs.  AND we were warned to get the hell out of the area if we saw one near - they can run about 35mph - out running us!  nope.  wouldn't want to be anywhere near one!  

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:46:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So this is before GoPro cameras and (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    edrie, Kevskos, tytalus

                    smart phones but I'm not ashamed to admit I almost pooped my pants when I winged one in the shoulder and it decided to charge me. And by winged I mean blew off it's fucking shoulder and it still charged me. All three times I was with the same guide who I met at the Bass Pro Shops (where I also worked at the time) in Dania. The second trip was the only trip I actually tried to hunt one. The first I was there as an observer (cost less) and the third time I was along for the ride because I became friends with Chris (the guide) and he wanted to show me what his dogs could do. That one was possibly the worst non-dentist experience of my life. Decided to stick to turkeys and fishing after that.

                    Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

                    by psilocynic on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:58:08 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  i really DO understand this post! (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kevskos, psilocynic

                      i've eaten wild boar - it is delicious - and the co-worker that hunts that brought it to the company picnic is far braver than me.

                      there is NO way i would ever willingly go face to snout with one of those things - ever!  

                      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                      by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 01:23:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  erm, wild boar are not = feral hogs (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gerrilea, KVoimakas

                    which are also not javelina.

                    LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                    by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 06:26:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  have had/eaten wild boar - not feral hogs. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      BlackSheep1, KVoimakas, Kimbeaux

                      and, i must admit, absolutely delicious!  okay, okay - i'm a carnivore... i confess - and i like game.

                      my grandfather fed his family and all their kids on what he grew or hunted.  never took more than would be eaten and grew enough to share to a very large family and their kids... and grandkids.

                      and, for the genetically curious... here's a great article on the difference (when it can be determined) by wild boar and feral pigs... and the hybrid that is commonly found in northern california.

                      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                      by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 07:41:23 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  feral pigs are vermin (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        edrie, gerrilea, KVoimakas, Kimbeaux

                        writ large, really.

                        Here's some Texas Parks and Wildlife information:

                        Do feral hogs carry disease?
                        Various diseases of wild hogs include pseudorabies, swine brucellosis, tuberculosis, bubonic plague, tularemia, hog cholera, foot and mouth disease, and anthrax. Internal parasites include kidney worms, stomach worms, round worms and whipworms. Liver flukes and trichinosis are also found in hogs. External parasites include dog ticks, fleas and hog lice.
                        What is pseudorabies and swine brucellosis?

                        Pseudorabies, also known as "mad itch" is a swine herpes virus that may affect the respiratory, nervous and reproductive systems. Despite its name, it is not a rabies type disease but derives its name from the symptoms similar to a rabid animal. It is transmitted primarily through breeding but may also to be transmitted through respiratory secretions of the infected animal. Infected adult swine typically develop flu-like symptoms whereas young pigs can have severe respiratory and digestive symptoms and ultimately die. Pseudorabies poses no threat to humans but may be fatal to domestic livestock and pets.

                        Swine Brucellosis is an infectious, bacterial, reproductive disease that can cause abortion, low conception rates and other problems. It is transmittable to humans, known as undulant fever, and causes flu-like symptoms such as fever, chills, aches and pains. It is treatable with specific antibiotics.

                        How do I keep from contracting diseases?
                        Texas Parks and Wildlife Department recommends all hunters use disposable plastic or rubber gloves when field dressing or cleaning wild swine. Bury or burn the gloves and entrails and then wash your hands with soap and hot water. And finally, make sure the meat is thoroughly cooked.

                        Brucellosis used to be called Bangs' disease in cattle.
                        It's somewhat similar to anthrax in that it gets in the ground from infected animals. It's very tough to get rid of.

                        Ticks carry Lyme disease.

                        Plague is nothing to sneeze at -- it's one of the diseases on the BioTerrorism list.

                        Hogs can also carry ordinary rabies, just like javelina can. Not a good thing (did you read Old Yeller?) to have happen to pets or livestock, rabies. Dangerous to humans, too.

                        These things are amazingly destructive, IMNVHO. Like kudzu, or those flying carp in the rivers just below the Great Lakes.

                        TPWD considers them dangerous, too:

                        Should I stock feral hogs?

                        No, feral hogs are prolific breeders and can cause considerable damage. They can destroy habitat, and compete directly or indirectly with all other species of wildlife. While many hunters might like hogs as part of the lease, the adverse effects often counter any potential economic incentives. TPWD considers feral hogs nuisance animals and does not support the introduction of feral hogs. Feral hogs are considered an under-utilized resource on many Texas ranges.

                        The Texas Animal Health Commission has enacted regulations requiring all feral hogs in Texas to be tested and certified to be disease free before being released into the wild for whatever purposes. They may however, be legally transported to slaughter or livestock sale for slaughter. If stocking is desired, only castrated males (barrows) should be considered. Because they cannot reproduce, they will grow larger, fatter and often produce larger tusks.

                        Now, I'm not into shooting game for the sake of shooting something; but feral hogs, as one Missouri Conservation publication urged, are my idea of a shoot-on-sight exception. The only "natural" predator they have is a car, and they can tear one of those up beyond repair in a collision. They travel by night, often in large groups.

                        LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                        by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 08:13:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  I'm talking about shooting as many feral hogs (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BlackSheep1

                  as possible. Not sporting. Pest control:

                  What kind of 1911?

                  Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 06:04:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  You are hurting your cause with this rhetoric (0+ / 0-)

            You have insulted not only psylocynic but everybody here with this outburst, pretending that only you and those who agree with you are grown up. Get a grip. Argue facts.

            Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

            by Mokurai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:41:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Oh yeah (0+ / 0-)

          And that was out of context...
          Please stop being a DICK...

          Go change your diapers

          You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

          by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:00:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i checked myself before i hit the hide button (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Texas Lefty, Urizen, noway2, Mokurai

            on this because i have engaged in this discussion - but you are seriously out of line here and you have thrown away any opportunity to have meaningful dialogue when you resort to insults.

            i'm sorry, but if this continues, i WILL remove my tip and rec of the diary body.

            this comment is inappropriate.  

            if you want discussion - then do so in an adult fashion. - that goes for everyone here!

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:27:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I agree in a limited way: I don't think the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea

        no-fly list is in and of itself (Constitutional to begin with; never mind the compleat disregard of the 4th Amendment it embodies: where are the warrants????) a good reason to stop an American citizen from exercising Constitutionally guaranteed rights, especially those not related to flying.

        LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 06:24:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I pretty much always agree with Edrie, and this is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Texas Lefty, Urizen

      no exception! I'm on board with 100% of what Edrie said. Thank you for stepping into the sharky/snarky waters of this debate with a reasonable, reasoned, and civil discussion of the realities of reforming firearms policies in the midst of our gun culture.

      Much appreciated. Keep up the fine work and ignore the knee jerks. As well as the kneejerk reactions.

  •  A real background check law... (10+ / 0-)

    ...a serious one as opposed to the half-assed compromise that was announced yesterday would mandate that all gun owners who sell a gun person-to-person do what you responsibly do.

    But the NRA and the GOA and Tom Coburn and all the rest of the naysayers don't want a real background check law. The NRA has worked hard to undermine the current law.

    As I wrote here, the best approach would be to expand the existing system of checks that gun dealers follow for transactions to all private sales (for a fee).

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:20:38 PM PDT

  •  Oh hells bells (8+ / 0-)

    Can't we for once have a civil conversation regarding the NRA and the right of gun owners.  I have stated before, I am licensed to carry, and I do while traveling alone to and from Tx. to Ky.  I don't belong to the NRA. My husband and I dropped that organization before Moses (Charleston) took over because it did not represent us even wayyyy back than.  Folks like me want a background check, and I mean a through background check. I had one from the DOD and my husband has had the same.  My sainted husband Mr. Pony shot competitively for the AF.

    So PLEASE, everybody go to their corners and come out fighting with a reasonable argument without the name calling and shit slanging.

    TIA,
    Pony

    Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.—Greg King

    by Pinto Pony on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:21:21 PM PDT

    •  YES! thank you! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      noway2, Pinto Pony, ban nock, SquareSailor

      i have no problems with licensed, responsible gun owners.  i have several friends who are and i have a long gun (from my dad).

      i have no problem with background checks, either.  i had to go through extensive one for employment as an auto sales rep (nationally owned company did serious following of the law and was very reputable!).  i had to be fingerprinted and checked to get my auto salesperson's license in california, as well.

      checks are good.  the diarist made some good points about personal responsibility in gun sales - especially how even private sales should require checks.  the law, like the aca, doesn't go far enough as proposed - but it is a good place to start.  one day, sanity WILL rule - but, i'll take this bill over nothing (like the diarist also said he would do).

      thanks, pinto pony, for also daring to stick a toe in these whitecapped waters!

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 01:08:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I had to have a full FBI background check (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pinto Pony

      when I joined the Peace Corps back in 1966, but that was as much to keep out CIA operatives as any other kind of troublemaker. When we got to South Korea, the North Korean press announced that we were all CIA anyway.

      I have other, more direct experience of teh crazy at home and abroad.

      But anyway, yes, serious background checks, no exceptions. I also favor full registration of guns, dealers, and owners, with training, periodic tests, audits for dealers, and more. I would consider leaving it to the states if I thought that the states would actually do it.

      Hatred of BATF and any other Revenooers goes back to the time of the Whiskey Rebellion against Alexander Hamilton's whiskey tax. President George Washington rode out at the head of the Pennsylvania militia to quell it, thus setting the precedent for all US Presidents to be denounced as tyrants or worse.

      But even Prohibition didn't call for confiscating existing booze. They are just making that stuff up because it sells even better than booze and guns to certain parts of the population.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:57:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Straw purchasing... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kevskos, edrie, rivercard, greengemini

    looks like another issue where those NRA members need to take it up with their leadership. Surprise! Bill Moyers also wrote about it here.

    We demanded a plan to reduce gun violence. Now it's time to demand a vote.

    by tytalus on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 12:22:28 PM PDT

  •  I agree with you and initially this is more or (0+ / 0-)

    less what was proposed. But of course NRA has enough power to likely prevent the bill from passing in this form. So a compromise was necessary to pass smth and even with the compromise there is no guarantee it will pass.

  •  Last Word (5+ / 0-)

    I support the current bill.

    I hope it all the success! I also hope we add to it more
    stringent checks!

    If we don't it won't fix a thing.

    Close ALL the holes!

    MK

    You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

    by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 01:59:38 PM PDT

  •  from aljazeera - this interesting observation! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, Kimbeaux

    senate votes to open gun control debate 68-31

    two democrats voted against the measure to bring to a vote - but before anyone gets really upset with them, they are in close races and in heavily pro-gun states.

    it is common for the dems to give "cover" to vulnerable candidates when there are overwhelming numbers FOR a bill.

    pryor (ark) and begich (alaska) were the two no votes - very understandable and okay, by my book, since the total votes cast were overwhelmingly in favor of passage.

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 02:46:12 PM PDT

  •  QA you have a good post here but you should be (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KVoimakas, gerrilea, Kimbeaux

    better prepared for the comments. You have to realize there are more than a few wild ones wandering around DK these days and they just aren't worth even responding to. Until you can ignore nasty people you're going to get pulled into pissing matches.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 05:36:11 PM PDT

    •  good point (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea

      I wear my belief on my slieves.
      Need to grow a better skin.

      You have your right to your opinion, I will grant you that, but do not denigrate my right to mine!

      by MrQA on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 06:23:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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