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Note: I'm neither Christian nor black. Polls show black America as a whole are in fact basically in line with the general population on the issue of marriage equality,but sit well below Democrats as a whole (who blacks vote 90%+ for), so there is an obvious break in the issue of marriage equality, which has been the subject of much discourse.

As someone who used to vote Republican and even voted against gay marriage equality in my state five years ago, I feel an obligation to undo my stupidity of the past (I took the "anti-gay -> separate but equal (civil unions) -> full equality" path on the issue).

That's why, while I normally don't care much for social issues and focus a lot more on economic issues in both my research and casual reading, I do speak out against those who are against marriage equality (or who are outright homophobic). It's probably more from a sense of guilt than true passion or purpose. I can't help but think about my current and past gay friends that I disrespected with my vote against gay marriage in Florida in 2008, and I feel extreme shame from making such a horrible mistake.

Typically I'd mock as unserious and distracting the kind of news that came out from an NBA player Jason Collins (who I really had no clue even existed) that he's gay. But then I saw the response from a Chris Broussard at ESPN. This is representative of what I've seen from a lot of black America -- using the Bible and Christianity to say, seemingly against their own will, that God forbids homosexuality and gay marriage is an abomination as delineated by their religion, and that's that!

Here's a small sample of the Twitter garbage on the hashtag #IStandWithChris. Your typical southern Christian bigots, but a lot of blacks who were using Christ and God's word to justify their brand of intolerance.

It really made me sick to my stomach on Twitter seeing the outburst of support from the religious right as well as many blacks. In fact, the first thing I thought about was this touching speech by Pastor Phil Snider of Missouri.  In it, he makes a passionate case against gay marriage, using a speech from a half-century ago that was used to justify legislation against interracial marriage. Pastor Snider merely replaced all the references to interracial marriage with gay marriage!

And it's a point that demands more thought. This is part of a greater theme of right-wing Christianity to fundamentally and literally interpret the Bible on matters that they see personally fit, but to ignore the "crazier" stuff.

What much of black America seems to forget is that in the 19th and 20th centuries, the Bible was used regularly to justify slavery, segregation, and broad racist vitriol in the United States. And now much of the community is turning around and using the same exact "reasoning" (if you can even call it that) to promote bigotry against gays, which was what was used against their people last century!

Here's a list of biblical verses that have been used to promote slavery, against the very ancestors of the black people using the bible to support anti-gay public policy:

Titus 2:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.
Boy that's odd, and from the New Testament as well. So slaves should obey their master, and doing so makes God happy and serves god...okay then. Ah, must be a bad translation, right? Or, maybe it was just from one weird book?
Ephesians 6:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
Well damn, so being a good slave to your earthly master is equivalent to serving Christ? Now it's becoming difficult to interpret these verses as really anything but outright plutocratic propaganda.
1 Timothy 6:1
New International Version (NIV)
6 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
Okay now this is just getting repetitive. Three different verses from three different books in the New Testament of the Bible, all with the same message: slavery is okay, and slaves must obey their masters as it pleases Christ.

And for good measure, in case slavery wasn't hitting home enough for blacks in America, the women out there also have cause for concern using the bible as justification for anything:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says
The above verses are mere samples of the voluminous anti-female, anti-gay, anti-freedom message the Bible sends to those who choose to interpret literally many passages. And I've only covered the New Testament! The Old Testament is considered way too easy of a target, due to its truly arcane references. But for a bit of an outline on the pro-slavery references there, check out this link.

For me, going to college and befriending gays and having gay work colleagues really broke the ice and "demystified" gays in America for me. Before then, I deferred the issue to the church (as I was growing out of my evangelical phase) or the status quo, and didn't give it much more thought. But the Bible can be used to justify any and all forms of bigotry (racial, religious, gender, sexual, national), and has indeed done so. Instead, I appeal to everyone to use their human instinct, the good that lies within us all, to understand this issue from the point of view of homosexuals who merely want equal rights under the law as our enlightened founding fathers outlined (but failed to implement many score later).

In this spirit, the passage black America should be citing that would be more appropriate is "Do to others as you would have them do to you" (Luke 6:31). One must always look at these issues from the point of view of the oppressed, of the underdog, to get perspective on the bigger picture of what's at stake. Blacks should not fall into the trap of religious bigotry that many whites did which used the bible to oppress blacks. It is the height of sad, pathetic irony that many blacks are using the same exact tactics to push for oppression of others.

But more importantly, Christians of all colors in America shouldn't make the mistake of letting bigots hijack their beloved book and preach a selective interpretation that ignores certain literal crazy things, but embraces the bigoted aspects. Think about the issue from the view of homosexuals, don't cop out by pointing to the Bible and insisting it's the word of God, while ignoring the obvious human angle.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (5+ / 0-)

    Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

    by aguadito on Mon Apr 29, 2013 at 11:51:13 PM PDT

  •  Equality is a challenge to hierarchy. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aguadito, Cassandra Waites, a2nite

    Some humans prefer hierarchy. Hierarchy has advantages, especially for the fearful. Letting someone else decide takes the onus off deciding wrongly.

    Obedience is a virtue, unless it is coered. Then it is abuse.

    We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

    by hannah on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 02:12:22 AM PDT

  •  To bible... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave in Northridge, Cofcos

    People love to bible you until you point out what it says.  Then they pick and choose despite their contention that they don't.   They never seem to obey Lev 19:27. I wonder why?  

  •  Hey aguadito, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aguadito

         are you the one who put Sachs' talk on YouTube ?

    The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

    by Azazello on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 06:30:13 AM PDT

    •  yes (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Azazello, Judge Moonbox

      I am.

      am i in trouble? :(

      Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

      by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:08:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not that I know of. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aguadito

        Yves Smith linked to it at naked capitalism. You'll probably get a lot of views.

        The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

        by Azazello on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:11:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  haha (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Azazello

          Interesting, I e-mailed her and Bill Still the link.

          I have the whole 6-hour conference actually -- Jeffrey Sachs' part is only one of many great segments.

          Thinking of splitting up the rest of the conference and posting it too.  Maybe even doing a diary entry analyzing the options that Sachs and others at the conference put on the table for reforming the current monetary system---and it goes beyond just reinstituting Glass Steagall -- they were discussing alternatives to fractional-reserve banking in very scholarly, academic terms relating to macroeconomic liquidity and facilitation of money.

          Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

          by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:17:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, I love it when they use the Bible (5+ / 0-)

    Especially when they use the Old Testament.  Quote them this letter to Dr. Laura after her rant against homosexuality:

    Dear Dr. Laura,
        Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend homosexuality, for example, I will simply remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

        I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other laws in Leviticus and Exodus and how to best follow them.

            When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

           I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as stated in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

            I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is, how can I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

            Leviticus 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

            I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

            A friend of mine says that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

            Leviticus 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

        I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's Word is eternal and unchanging.  

    "That being said, I do agree I am going to hell. But for other reasons. Mostly boring tax stuff ' Amy Pohler

    by Annie B on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 06:34:07 AM PDT

    •  fundies and republicans (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aguadito

      have a lot in common (besides the obvious fact that the two often equal each other)...but they scoff at facts and common sense and are constantly dripping with hypocrisy. America's pastors, ministers and priests have made an effort to vilify homosexuality and their ignorant sheep in the pews have been hit over the head with it. Can you imagine if these men of the cloth decided to pick another "sin" and railed agasint that ad naseuem...such as working on Sunday? Would those same sheep be so outspoken and belligerent? They are totally unaware of what the bible actually is or says. If you point it out (or that the story of Jesus is an exact copy of the the story of the god-man Horus that came before Jesus) they get angry, defiant and find some way to dismiss it. Maybe they stick their fingers in their ears and sing loudly to drown out the truth. Do these hypocrites realize that the following things are also considered punishable by death according to the bible?

      *working on a Sunday (so, almost everyone)*trimming your beard (hundreds of millions of people, especially hipsters) *eating fruit from a tree less than 4 years after planting (probably almost everyone in existence) * selling land permanently (so anyone who has ever sold their house or farmland) *wearing two kinds of fabric simultaneously (almost literally everyone. Ever.) *cursing your parents (more than would like to admit to it)*having a tattoo (so basically every athlete and millions of other "sinners") *committing adultery (over half the population..at least) *fornication or not being a virgin on your wedding night (probably 80% or more of the population)*plowing to the very edge of your field (sorry farmers!) Plus any number of other offenses such as being the first born son of an Egyptian family, not following "god's" specific rules about when a father can sell her daughter into slavery...however, if you rape a woman you aren't punished by death, just forced to marry her...according to the "lord's" law. Lovely.

      Just a sampling....and these self-righteous, myopic fools will continue to cherry-pick the verse/"offense" that fits their specific hatred or intolerance and think that they are justified and they will continue to be totally ignorant of what is actually in the book they worship.

      To be blunt, if you do not suffer from seriously diminished mental capacity or the personality disorder that is right wing extremism and still vote Republican...I'd double check on the two previously mentioned conditions.

      by jellin76 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:33:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think it is a mistake (6+ / 0-)

    to point to their race first. It is conservative religious beliefs driving the intolerance of LGBT, regardless of race. It isn't "white conservative Christians" and "black Christians" as though they are two different groups motivated by different drivers of intolerance. The common factor here is a conservative interpretation and application of what they see as God's word that prompts lack of acceptance, and skin color is incidental.

    We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

    by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 06:49:13 AM PDT

    •  the point of mentioning the race (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Judge Moonbox, Kimbeaux

      was to point out the historical irony with which they go about justifying the anti-marriage-equality -- the same "reasoning" as that which was used to oppress them in slavery, segregation, jim crow...

      Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

      by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:10:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your argument is specious at best.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        a2nite, puakev, CatM

        You pick the black people who get face time in the beltway press and totally disregard those black who have come out in support.

        You are no better than conservatives who pick and choose the parts of the bible they want to expound on. You pick and choose the "blacks" that allow you to make your case while disregarding those that destroy your case.

        Black people, as whole, are becoming more tolerant. Focusing on the whackadoodles instead of building bridges with those who do support progress seems to me to be counter-productive.

        I need not thank the rich for the crumbs they have tossed me, rather, I curse them for the bread stolen from our tables. -- MinistryOfTruth

        by sephius1 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:27:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  hmmm (0+ / 0-)
          You pick the black people who get face time in the beltway press and totally disregard those black who have come out in support.
          The very first image I have put in this diary post was of Morgan Freeman, a prominent black actor who gets lots of face time and has clearly come out in support of marriage equality (as evidenced by the tweet in the image I posted).

          Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

          by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:16:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Your title belies this (0+ / 0-)

        Your title mentions "Black America's Biblical justification..." I am sure many who consider themselves part of "black America" (eg, a black American) would take strong exception to being lumped in as intolerant of LGBT based on their skin color, which is what your title and your post essentially do, regardless of your black friend Morgan Freeman.

        How can you argue that is the black American viewpoint when some of the most prominent black American voices are fully supportive of the LGBT community and equality? What is this black America of which you speak?

        It is a subset of people who are religious and identify as black and do not support equality for LGBT. Is it hypocritical that they use the very same Bible used to justify slavery? Well, by that token, one could argue it is hypocritical for them to use the Bible to support any position. The fact that the Bible has been used by some to justify wrongs does not invalidate it because how the bible is applied is subjective. As a nonreligious person, I often think most people use the bible to support pre-supposed positions. Do people really stop themselves from killing only because the bible says it is wrong? Certainly plenty of people who believe in the bible have killed.

        I suspect many people who use the bible to oppose homosexuality would oppose it even if the bible did some black Christians should be singled out as representative of black America's position on homosexuality escapes me. Are the white Christians who hate gay people reflective of white America? Not in your post.

        Sorry that you cannot see the inherent racism in your arguments. It is embarrassing to see yet another post onKos blaming all black people for the attitudes of some. I thought we were better than that.

        We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

        by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 09:01:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Posted on phone and some text accidentally deleted (0+ / 0-)

          I meant to say that I suspect many people who use the Bible to oppose homosexuality would oppose it even if the Bible did not exist. Why some black Christians should be singled out...and the rest is there.

          Still, I want to add that race should not be the issue here. Their belief in a certain religious viewpoint is the issue. It is like you are saying black people owe it to LGBT to support them because of slavery. Everyone should support equality for LGBT because it is right.

          Should black people have more empathy for gay people because of what they went through with discrimination? Maybe. Some like Al Sharpton have expressed that as a factor in his views. But people who perhaps mistakenly see homosexuality as a choice (as many religious people against homosexuality do) do not see their views as comparable to racial discrimination because they see race as something that is not a choice, so that argument is not going to score points.

          Black America is not against equality for LGBT people anymore than white America is. People of any race who subscribe to a narrow, conservative Christian doctrine are another story. Why not castigate Christian America (although that would not be accurate either)? The Bible has also been used throughout history to discriminate against many different Christian sects.

          Finally, not everyone has more empathy for something because they experienced what someone else thinks is similar. A lot of rich people who started out poor have less sympathy for the poor because they think if they made it, anyone can.

          What I would like to know is how some LGBT people can support politicians who think they should not have equal rights. (Yes, I mean you, Log Cabin Republican whack jobs.)

          We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

          by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:03:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the log cabin republicans (0+ / 0-)

            and goproud and the holocaust-denying jews and the bible-thumping anti-gay blacks using the same tactics used to oppress them are very similar.

            but this diary is specifically about blacks who invoke christianity and bible verses the way their ancestors' masters did to justify slavery...

            Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

            by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:56:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I expressed a wish, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cassandra Waites, Kimbeaux, aguadito

    Some time ago, I said I wish I had a million dollars that I could just put on the table and say, "If you can answer 15 Bible questions, the money is yours."

    The questions would be things like:

    When talk turns to school prayer, do you recite Matthew 6:5,6?

    When thou prayest, be not like the hypocrite who prays in the streets and synagogues to be seen of men, but go to thy closet and pray, and for that prayer which is in secret, God shall reward thee openly.
    To people who heard Jesus with their own ears, "Good Samaritan" was an oxyomornon. Now, it's a cliche. Does that make it easier for Christians to pass that test now than it was back then?

    In Jesus's time and country, cities had walls with narrow openings which a camel could get through with difficulty, and they were called "needle's eyes. Those who heard Jesus say, "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God," thought he was referring to these openings, and they've seen it done.

    Do you think that because you've never witnessed a camel figuratively passing through the eye of a needle, it's no problem for you to interpret the passage literally?

    What does Leviticus say about Woody Allen (If the person says, "I know who Woody Allen is, but I don't know enough about his lifestyle to answer that question," I'd rephrase it to "what does Leviticus say about men who marry their stepdaughters?")

    Does Joshua 6:24 refer to genocide? If Joshua had been hauled before a Jericho War Crimes Tribunal, how would you defend him?

    Nobody ever told me, "You've got your challenger, go find your money."

    The furor over Friday's [10.5] job report revealed a political movement that is rooting for American failure, so obsessed with taking down Obama that good news drives its members into a blind rage. -Paul Krugman

    by Judge Moonbox on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:25:32 AM PDT

    •  Amen :P (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Judge Moonbox

      Excellent points.

      This is all part of the larger issue of those who follow the Bible, Koran, etc.  in any literal form, any form other than a general conceptual guide really, is not logical and leads to distortions in humanity within society.

      And anyone can interpret the Bible to justify really any behavior.

      I just wish they would interpret it the way you are pointing out -- about selfish greedy rich people and other issues pressing our country.  Instead of just using it to oppress and screw with others.

      Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

      by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:15:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am curious about your choice of topic (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    puakev

    and worry for your diary.  

    You might have written a diary about how those with incomes under $50K also support marriage equality at a rate (58%, 1% less than blacks) grossly below the rate of most Democrats (at 72%), despite the fact that that group voted for Obama at a 60% rate.  

    And so your data is clear, black Americans identify as Democrats at a rate of 76% in 2012, while voting for a Democratic President in 2012 at the rate of 93%.  

    I think you make a mistake in conflating black Obama voters with "Democratic" voters and referring to that 93% as identified Democrats, rather than Obama voters.  There is a difference.  

    For comparison, in 2000, 12% more blacks, 88%, identified as Democrats, and in that year, Al Gore got 90% of the black vote, just 3% less than Barack Obama.  

    I don't mean to be picky, but like the unfortunate Rand Paul who thought he was teaching black folks something new at Howard University , I think most blacks are aware of the use of the Bible as justification for slavery.  Remember the majority of black Americans 59% support marriage equity, so they may be said to have a 1% more honed sense of justice or irony than those with incomes less than $50K. "The" Bible was also used to punish some of the same white Christian sects (Mormons for one) that use it to oppose marriage equity.  

    But agree with this:  Marriage equity is here to stay, the tide of history has turned, and justice will prevail over ignorance.  I did enjoy your very pithy selection Luke 6:31, though, like you, I am not a Christian.  I just happen to like Jesus, or maybe it's just people with one name.  

    "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

    by Uncle Moji on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:31:49 AM PDT

    •  whites (0+ / 0-)

      actually support marriage equality  the least of all the races!

      after all, most evangelicals are white. and this is generally an evangelical christian driven issue (as I pointed out in the diary).

      the part that irked me, and sparked me to write this diary, was that the guy from ESPN is black, and a number of the people on the Twitter hashtag supporting him were black, and of course citing the bible.

      so by all means, this is not an issue against all blacks, and most blacks that i know (I'm young, so my sample is biased) are progressives who understand the parallel with their fight for civil rights.

      but I couldn't help but point out the strange historical irony of blacks overcoming a lot of civil rights obstacles where their opponents were using the Bible quoting verses to oppress them -- and then turning around and doing the same to oppose gay marriage equality and homosexuality as a whole.  as a group they have a community responsibility to be historically aware of this hypocrisy and to really rectify it (Al Sharpton has done a fantastic job on this issue and has really helped push the poll numbers over the past decade)

      and we're not talking about ancient shaky history, we're talking about relevant, current-generation history -- not slavery, not necessarily even segregation -- but Phil Snider's speech was about a 20th century interracial marriage opposition!!

      I hope you don't worry that I'm race-baiting, or being sensational -- i try to keep my diary honest and direct and fact-based.

      Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

      by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:04:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have a feeling (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CatM

    that either you're a Repub troll or you have some race issues.  Just a few days ago I saw you in a thread writing about how blacks need to stop playing on "white guilt trip", that women and minorities "don't face any real obstacles", and that Obama was a "Republican in black face".  I let it slide at the time, but at this point it's clear this is a pattern of behavior from you.  

    “Th’ noise ye hear is not th’ first gun iv a revolution. It’s on’y th’ people iv the United States batin’ a carpet.” - Mr. Dooley

    by puakev on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:07:36 AM PDT

    •  i'm glad (0+ / 0-)

      that you posted the links to the comments so people can clearly see that you're lying :)

      the only thing you accurately quoted was within "quotation marks", the rest is your fantasy about the context of those comments.

      Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

      by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:20:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Calling the president... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        puakev

        a Republican in black face does not make you look good, even in context.

        We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

        by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:08:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's how i feel (0+ / 0-)

          and it's not racist to acknowledge a quote by Cornel West that I found to be powerful and very REAL, so don't try and paint me out to be a bigot.

          Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

          by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:08:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah because you are such a follower of Dr West (0+ / 0-)

            I doubt he would agree with you that minorities no longer face any obstacles.

            Proud Aspie mom of an LGBT kid and some Aspies.

            by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:29:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And the game of telephone begins (0+ / 0-)

              That's not what I wrote. I said, in the context of the old-school obstacles post-WWII era, that minorities and women aren't facing real obstacles like back then, they're of a different nature and it doesn't matter WHAT you are, you can gain wealth and a pass into the club of the elites.

              But you're not interested in a discussion or a debate, you're interested in labelling this diary and myself as inappropriate and avoiding the points put forth.

              And I guarantee you that I've read more of Dr. West's work than you have.

              Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

              by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:43:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It was exactly what you wrote (0+ / 0-)

                It was a direct quote that you offered in your complaint about white male persecution, and you defended that position in this very thread, claiming Sandra Fluke was proof women no longer face these hardships. I read what you wrote there and here, and I did offer quite lengthy debate or discussion on what is wrong with your diary's premise, for which you failed to provide a reasonable counterargument (what you offered was a knee-jerk defense, not a counterargument). You have yet to explain who represents "black America" or how black America can hold the position you claim when so many prominent black Americans have come out in support of LGBT equality. You have yet to explain why, if the voices of a few blacks represent black America, the voices of conservative homophobic whites do not equally represent white America.

                I did discuss and debate. You are the one who hasn't, probably because it is hard to defend such a losing, wrongheaded argument as the ones you have been making.

                Proud Aspie mom of an LGBT kid and some Aspies.

                by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:53:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Amusing (0+ / 0-)

                  BLACK PEOPLE REPRESENT BLACK AMERICA, AS EVIDENCED BY THE ESPN ANALYST, THE POLLS I CITED, AND THE PEOPLE ON TWITTER I WAS REFERENCING.

                  Try re-reading the diary and visiting the links and toning down your faux-outrage.

                  I'll reiterate, my comment was in response to someone talking about how "material possessions don't matter" and that "women and minorities with money still face xyz", and I was explaining that money gets you into the club, regardless of gender or race, and in that sense they don't face the obstacles of back when.

                  That DOES NOT MEAN THAT ALL WOMEN AND MINORITIES HAVE ZERO OBSTACLES.

                  And the fact you seriously try and libel my character by saying i'm like Anton Scalia and writing that because I am standing up for working Americans of all types i'm somehow contradicting myself? You're totally outrageous and behaving hysterically instead of understanding the bigger discussion.  It's a symptom of those who prefer the machine-gun modern cable TV media and demand to have sensationalism and something seemingly inappropriate to point out. Broaden your horizons, it will do wonders for repairing your character flaws.

                  Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

                  by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:58:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That isn't what you wrote (0+ / 0-)

                    You said--and I am quoting--"Women, minorities (religious, ethnic), they don't face any real obstacles these days." You did not say "compared to way back when..."

                    You said they now get preferential treatment in schools and in the hiring process (what a joke).

                    You also said, "And while you're crying about marriage equality or some racial-ethnic profiling, the middle class has been dismantled."

                    And you expect anyone to believe that you wrote this diary because you are so concerned about marriage equality? I will not go as far as to accuse you of bring a troll (though it has crossed my mind), but I will say you are coming across as pretty ignorant. Note how few people cared to recommend your comment or your diary. That should give you pause to reflect on the fact that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong.  

                    It is more than clear you did not post this diary to open up a reasoned discussion or to consider what others might have to say. I won't hypothesize what your motives were other than to say they clearly did not sprout from a desire to lend clarity to a complex issue or help anyone achieve a deeper level of understanding (which would be hard with such shallow thoughts).

                    I truly hope you are a young person because then there may be some hope that you will wake up one day and realize how you are one of the last people who should be lecturing anyone about the need to broaden their horizons or to educate themselves. My writing speaks for itself, just as yours does, and my initial response to your diary was better received than your diary (which most Kossacks likely avoided due to the incendiary trollish title, but I being an Aspie could not resist).

                    You should be grateful no one gave your diary the donuts it likely deserved. Your argument is so unoriginal, it could have been cut and pasted from Free Republic. It is hardly the stuff one expects from such a great enlightened mind as the one you imagine you have. I suggest you expand your horizons and stop trotting out quotes from black people as though it somehow gives your pointless arguments credibility--at least not until you learn a lot more about black America and how to recognize that it isn't actually a monolithic entity save for your black friend Morgan Freeman.

                    Proud Aspie mom of an LGBT kid and some Aspies.

                    by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 12:23:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're pathetic. (0+ / 0-)

                      It's abundantly clear you didn't read my diary, you didn't read the thread of the discussion my comment was a reply to.

                      You're taking phrases out of context to serve your agenda.

                      I grew up in low-class apartment complexes and I'm well acquainted with black America. and if you're so ignorant that you don't even want to address the issue as it is: blacks being disproportionately against gay marriage from their political affiliation (a trend that has changed RAPIDLY, as shown in the links I've provided).

                      It's actually against the rules to respond to diaries that you only read the title of and want to create a flamewar, which I won't speculate, but clearly you're here to harass a guy writing about an issue within black America.

                      You just run around like a right-wing dingbat spewing accusations without appreciating any nuance or more complex discussion.

                      You still have yet to make any point, except that you have dug out some other comment from a different diary that was in a larger discussion about issues in America (which are economic, not racial/gender profiling or issues -- and not to say there are NO obstacles for ANY minorities or women -- utter stupidity).

                      It's easier for you to turn the issue into some comment I made in another diary, because you're unable to intellectually grasp the argument in the diary since you didn't even read it, you had a knee-jerk reaction to anyone daring to write about a topic about black America. GOD FORBID. Cry me a river, deal with it, and maybe if your hysteria settles you can take the time to do the proper thing and actually read the content and formulate a critique that doesn't involve out-of-context quotes from a completely different comment in a completely different diary.

                      You've got serious race issues. This is the 21st century, we have an oligarchy to fight, stop dividing the country on racial and gender lines, it's offensive to the working and (former) middle class people who have been marginalized REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE HELL THEY LOOK LIKE OR WHERE THEY COME FROM.

                      Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

                      by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 12:35:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I have race issues? (0+ / 0-)

                        First, I read your diary. Second, I responded in full. Third, you are the one with obvious race issues, as I and others have made clear.

                        Proud Aspie mom of an LGBT kid and some Aspies.

                        by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:37:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  lol (0+ / 0-)

                          "I and others"

                          you mean you and some other idiot who read the title and ran straight to the comment section?

                          You:

                          1) twisted a comment from an irrelevant diary referenced by an equally ignorant reader,

                          2) see the world through a 1970's area lense where you divide the country by race and gender groups, when the bigger issue in the 21st century is class. you're too old to understand the current issues and the relevance.

                          3) You and one person have accused me of that crap. That's not "you and others" it's YOU AND ONE OTHER GUY.

                          But yea youre a pretty obvious case there -- making up things about what I said, over-stating yourself by creating an imaginary plurality of support. You're just a dishonest individual and that shows in the fact that you've been unable to formulate a coherent argument and focus instead on faux-outrage and bullshit sensationalism (again, you're a victim of the cable news media age, and the prescription is you need to read more books and not obsess over DailyKos' others members who are absolutely obsessed with framing issues that put minorities and women in the same group fighting evil white men).

                          Again, meanwhile I'll be fighting for the issues of our day that actually matter through the new lense.

                          Oh wait, that's right, you think I think all women and minorities face zero obstacles. So smart!

                          Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

                          by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:24:31 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

    •  Wow thanks for the links (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      puakev

      That explains this diary. And despite the diarist claiming the context exonerates him, it really, really does not. Women and minorities no longer face any real obstacles? Wow. I wonder when was the last time he was a woman or a minority. I guess he missed the whole Sandra Fluke thing or the Stop and Frisk posts or posts about unemployment rates among black and Hispanic people or the recent diary on how black people had to endure much greater hurdles to vote in 2012 or any diary on incarceration among black men or the diary about how school safety officers are far more likely to charge black students with crimes or how schools in Oregon have disproportionately suspended black students for similar infractions to white students or how Hispanic kids born in the U.S. and some Hispanic American adults are being deported unjustly (and how Tea Party types call them anchor babies and want to deprive them of citizenship) or how Florida legislators are trying to keep Latinos from voting by not allowing interpreters in polling booths.

      As for women, I guess he missed all the attacks on our reproductive rights and on the rape victims being blamed for getting raped. Or pay inequality between men and women. Yeah, women and minorities face no obstacles anymore...

      What a dumb thing to say.

      We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

      by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:19:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i guess (0+ / 0-)

        you missed that the vast majority of the public as ostracizing the people (including Limbaugh losing tons of advertising) on the wrong side of the Sandra Fluke issue (rightfully so, and indicative of how little a problem this kind of bigotry is these days). the fact that a young woman was allowed to go out and testify about such a topic and then have her haters get totally called out by the vast majority of the public, completely negates your point that it's MAJOR HARDSHIP FOR WOMEN.

        and the context of my comments referenced by that guy, since you obviously didn't view the links, was about immigration and the jobs crisis in the US and people lazily blaming it on "whining white guys" and overplaying the issues facing women and minorities currently.  The point is MORE women are in universities, the pay inequality issue has a lot to do with nuance that is avoided in a lot of the press, and the barriers these days are minute compared to when this was an activist-driven issue.

        but yea the more you imply that i'm a sexist racist, the less you have to deal with the points put forth in this diary.

        Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

        by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:06:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not a hardship? (0+ / 0-)

          It is not a hardship to have people fighting to deprive you of access to medically necessary medication because you are a woman? It is not a hardship to be called a slut to millions? Martin Luther King Jr was a hero who won a lot of respect and praise but that does not mean he never endured any hardship. People supported her after the hardship. And I cited many cases, not just one. I don't need to imply that you are a sexist racist. You manage to do that pretty well all by yourself.

          Proud Aspie mom of an LGBT kid and some Aspies.

          by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:26:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  uh (0+ / 0-)

            when the hell did i say MLK didn't endure hardship?

            obviously you didn't read the comment thread of where my comment was posted.

            Meanwhile I'll be sticking up for working Americans of any ethnicity/race or gender. Stick to fighting old battles that have already been won, not all of us can adapt to changing issues.

            Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

            by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:33:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You have a problem with reading comprehension (0+ / 0-)

              Which explains why you cannot even understand the meaning of the things you wrote. Why are you sticking up for people of any race/gender if all those battles have been won and there are no obstacles anymore for women or minorities, as you claim? Who are the people facing the obstacles? If you take away women and you take away minorities, that only leaves one group: white men.

              You really need to read more that gets posted at the site and pay more attention to the news if you honestly think women and minorities have no more obstacles. No true progressive, liberal, or democrat would ever believe such a ridiculous assertion. Some might believe things have gotten better, but the fact that we have yet to pass a pay equality act or that we are relitigating the Voting Rights Act,makes it pretty clear democrats recognizes there are still obstacles. Clearly, you stand with Antonin Scalia on this one.

              Proud Aspie mom of an LGBT kid and some Aspies.

              by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:46:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  stop your lying (0+ / 0-)

                just because you SAY i said there are NO obstacles facing women and minorities, doesn't mean that i wrote it.

                put down your strawman, you're completely out of control.

                I'm hesitant to even address such blatant trolling, but you need to calm down and read the context of the comment and stop lying, thanks.

                Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

                by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:52:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You did say it. (0+ / 0-)

                  I am a long time member of Daily Kos in good standing, and no one would ever accuse me of being a troll. The same cannot be said for you, who was earlier accused of being a troll in this very diary.

                  Nor am I a liar. I went to the link provided, I read what you wrote, and those were your exact words, as another diarist here has reproduced. I also read the context in which you wrote them and it does not match the backpedaling you are now seeking to do in distancing yourself from some pretty wrongheaded remarks.

                  You absolutely did make that statement in a comment in which you complained about white males being needlessly bashed. You are the one who is not being truthful.

                  Proud Aspie mom of an LGBT kid and some Aspies.

                  by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:58:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you are a liar (0+ / 0-)

                    you've twisted my comment to make it look like i've said ALL WOMEN AND MINORITIES FACE NO OBSTACLES, which is so unbelievably stupid I don't even know where to begin with you.

                    you're not being an honest participant in this at all.

                    Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

                    by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 12:00:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  and the entire comment (0+ / 0-)

                    thread as I linked it (the link you followed probably didn't even show the comment I was replying to:READ THE ENTIRE THING)

                    was all about how we face issues that aren't divided along WOMEN/MINORITIES/etc -- those fights are mostly over, and they don't face the same obstacles.

                    THE WHOLE POINT WAS THAT THE PROBLEMS WE FACE ARE AGAINST CLASSES, REGARDLESS OF RACE.

                    you take some tiny segment of a comment within a deep multi-level thread of a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIARY and now you've hijacked this entry and forced me to be on the defense from your disgusting attacks.

                    the fact I've had to link to this and explain this to you so blatantly as if you're a child makes me question whether you're really NOT a troll, but the GALL of you to repeatedly accuse me of something so wildly off-base has made me feel obligated to clear it here in the comments to fend off your libel.

                    Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

                    by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 12:06:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Who cares? (0+ / 0-)

                      Nobody is reading your dead racist diary anyway. I did not bring the quote or link to this thread, and I read your comment in full. To be libel, it would have to be untrue. You did say what I and another said you did. My interpretation of those words would not be subject to libel charges, but go ahead and pursue a claim if you really think you have a case. Scalia might rule for you.

                      Proud Aspie mom of an LGBT kid and some Aspies.

                      by CatM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 12:28:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

                        You're really a disgusting cretin, you know that? Shameful individual. The pity i have for you outweighs the frustration with your inability to understand your warped worldview.

                        Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

                        by aguadito on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 12:41:45 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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