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So Says Penny Nance

This is UNBELIEVABLE, to say the least. The religious-right-wing has become the most preposterous purveyors of absolute lunacy and they keep getting more deranged and out-&-out silly with each passing day (minute). We seem to think that their outrageousness means nothing and will not hurt anyone but their senselessness is reaching a point where it is starting to sound menacing. This woman, Penny Nance’s prattle that ‘Reason’ led to one of the most horrific crimes of any century is not only monstrous it's unsubstantial (putting it extremely mild)! Who is she preaching to?  Fox News has become synonymous with WHACKO and it’s about time, someone (maybe with some power) tells them so. Their viewers (America) deserve so much more. thinkingblue


More Think Atheirst Here :


What a difficult subject to research, any so called answers you come across are subjective and quite personal to each person or oganization who tries to explain (objectively) exactly what is meant by Moral Relativism. I had a very hard time trying to pick the one that suited ME for Pity’s Sake. I finally decided on this one (below) although ME, MYSELF and I, still have problems with it.


What is relativism?

    Archbishop Piero Marini closes the door of the Sistine Chapel for the conclave… There was no way in for moral relativism at conclave…

    Shortly before he was elected pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger delivered a withering denunciation of relativism. For those unfamiliar with even the blunter points of philosophy, what was he driving at?

    Moral relativism is the idea that moral principles have no objective standard, so states its dictionary definition.

    In its extreme, the view that there are no hard and fast rules on what is right and wrong, on which values are set and should be fought for.

    It is in contrast to absolutism, that there is one truth.

    One man's meat...

    Relativism is "Different opinions, no one authority, and as many 'truths' as there are people or societies or cultures advancing different ways of doing things," says Simon Blackburn, Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge University.

    It is easy, he says, "to give relativism a slogan: Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. One man's meat is another man's poison." And when that is applied to ethics, then goodness, virtue and duty also lie in the eye of the beholder. MORE HERE:

Richard Dawkins’ Ten Commandments, from his book The God Delusion, is the credo I like best. thinkingblue


Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.
        In all things, strive to cause no harm.
        Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.
        Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
        Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
        Always seek to be learning something new.
        Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.
        Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
        Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
        Question everything.
PS: I wish Penny Nance would read these commandments as well as her ilk, there at Fox News. They could possibly learn what being NICE is all about.
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Comment Preferences

  •  Hitler was a devout Christian. (7+ / 0-)

    He believed he was doing what god wants, and he hung out with Catholic priests who agreed with his hatred towards the Jewish people.

    It's all in his book.

    So, what she is stating is a blantant lie. The Holocaust, just like the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, and the genocide of the Native Americans, is based in Christianity.

    •  Can you cite? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, jeff in nyc
      Hitler was a devout Christian
      He was born into a Catholic family. I believe he was confirmed and baptized as a boy, as almost all Catholic children, in a strongly Catholic country, would have been  in the late 1800s.

      But I have never heard of him attending church or doing anything that could remotely be described as "devout Christian" in his adulthood.

      While in power, he played the German protestant and Catholic churches against each other, in the process weakening those institutions so that they would not be a power to stand up against the Nazi party.

      Senor Unoball, 115050

      by Senor Unoball on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:09:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not to mention (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Senor Unoball

        a lot of belief in magic.

        I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

        by trumpeter on Fri May 03, 2013 at 12:27:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sure thing. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, Senor Unoball

        Takes like 10 seconds of research.

        It's called Mein Kampf. Oh, and the exact words of the Christians praising him.

        In November 1936 the Roman Catholic prelate Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber met Hitler at Berghof for a three hour meeting. He left the meeting convinced that "Hitler was deeply religious" and that "The Reich Chancellor undoubtedly lives in belief in God. He recognises Christianity as the builder of Western culture".[Hitler, Ian Kershaw, p. 373, 2008, Penguin]

        Hitler viewed the Jews as enemies of all civilization and as materialistic, unspiritual beings, writing in Mein Kampf: "His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine."

        Hitler described his supposedly divine mandate for his anti-Semitism: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."[Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65]


        Obviously not all Nazis were hardcore Christians, but a lot of them were (most especially the higher ranks), and Hitler himself was.

  •  Bigger picture: Nance isn't interested (15+ / 0-)

    in the history of the Enlightenment as such.  It's a broader and a more coordinated effort to deny the influence of the Enlightenment on the founding of this nation in deference to a belief that the United States was founded on Christian principles, full stop.

    This caused a ruckus a few years back with the Texas school board deleting references to the Enlightenment in their American history textbook while beefing up the very thin religious credentials of the Founders.   There are certain hot-button words that this movement uses (incorrectly) - secularism, moral relativism, etc. - and without much of an understanding in, or interest in, the history of ideas they're critiquing.  Nance is just next in line to run with this banner.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Fri May 03, 2013 at 10:29:43 AM PDT

  •  That's Funny (11+ / 0-)

    I don't see her wearing a fur shirt with leaves in her hair. She's wearing acrylic fabric with a brightly-colored chemical dye and cosmetics that came from an industrial plant, not her backyard garden. The fact that these things are available to her is a product of the Enlightenment, science and a thousand other cultural or technical advances that are secular and material in nature.

    "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

    by bink on Fri May 03, 2013 at 10:32:25 AM PDT

  •  whoa... is that Michelle Bachman's sister? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mannie, kyril

    "It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment." *Ansel Adams* ."Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."*Will Rogers*

    by Statusquomustgo on Fri May 03, 2013 at 10:41:43 AM PDT

    •  Michelle Bachman's Sister? (3+ / 0-)

      It’s funny you mentioned that. When I saw Nance in that Fox video... I thought the same thing... Well, not sisters but, they both have got the look. There's something very similar in people who spout absurdities like Buchman and Nance. Their facial expressions seem to say, I KNOW EVERYTHING. YOU KNOW NOTHING! Maybe it's as simple as, “Insanity is catching.”― Terry Pratchett

      A search for truth will find injustice!

      by thinkingblue on Fri May 03, 2013 at 02:55:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  IMO, the best explanation of what led... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mannie, kyril the Holocaust is found in James Carroll's book Constantine's Sword.

    I diaried about the film based on the book;

    I posted this from my iPhone but you can look it up.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Fri May 03, 2013 at 10:54:29 AM PDT

  •  Moral relativism (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, trumpeter, pico, thinkingblue

    has a very clear, specific, and not-at-all-subjective meaning in moral philosophy. There are three forms of moral relativism:

    1) Descriptive moral relativism. This is the claim that different people and/or cultures do, in fact, have different moral standards.

    2) Metaethical moral relativism. This is the claim that there exist no universal moral standards - that normative terms like "good, bad, right, wrong, should, ought" only have meaning in the context of a particular cultural definition of morality, and that there's no way to compare moral standards across cultures. Meta-ethical moral relativism includes descriptive moral relativism.

    3) Normative moral relativism. This is the claim that we ought to tolerate the behaviour of other people/cultures even when it conflicts with our own moral standards. Normative moral relativism includes both descriptive and meta-ethical moral relativism.

    Descriptive moral relativism (DMR) is demonstrably true (assuming that you believe that other people exist and that you can find out what their moral standards are by asking them or observing them). For instance, it's easy to demonstrate that there are people who believe that premarital sex is wrong and people who believe that it's not wrong.

    Metaethical moral relativism (MMR) is, as the name implies, a metaphysical claim - it's a claim about what is/is not real.

    The trouble with metaphysical claims in general is that they are, by their very nature, impossible to prove or disprove by reference to reality.

    Metaphysical claims in philosophy, serve the same purpose as axioms in mathematics: they form the basis of a philosophical system. We evaluate them on usefulness, not correctness. The trouble with MMR is that it's useless; if you're trying to construct a system of moral philosophy and you begin with the claim that there exist no universal moral truths, you might as well just stop right there. If they don't exist, you can't discover them. Your moral system now consists of "People are going to do what they're going to do, and you can judge them, or not, depending on your own moral norms."

    Normative moral relativism (NMR) is a normative claim: it's a claim about what people ought to do.

    The problem with NMR is that it's incoherent. It says "There are no universal moral norms, so everybody should tolerate everyone else's behaviour even when it conflicts with their own moral norms." The tip-off is the word "should," which indicates a moral norm, which is applied universally ("everybody"). The NMRist believes that there is at least one universal moral norm (tolerance). That's inconsistent with MMR, and since NMR depends on metaethical moral relativism, NMR is impossible.

    So essentially everyone believes in DMR. No serious moral philosopher or thinker, secular or religious, believes in MMR. And nobody actually believes in NMR (since it's impossible), although some people think they do.

    The opposite of MMR is metaethical moral universalism (MMU) - the belief that there exists at least one universal moral norm. That's what most people believe, including all serious moral philosophers, both religious and secular.

    Keep in mind that MMU is a metaphysical claim, not an epistemological claim. It's solely a claim about existence.  You can claim that universal moral truths exist without claiming that you know what they are.

    People who think they believe in NMR fall into three camps:

    a) Metaethical moral relativists who have a personal/cultural norm of tolerance, but don't apply it universally. These are the people who believe that they're actually obligated to tolerate intolerance. This, historically, has been the position of anthropologists.

    b) Metaethical moral universalists who believe that tolerance is the only universal moral norm. These people don't believe that they're obligated to tolerate intolerance, but they have no philosophically-coherent way of putting that belief into practice.

    c) Metaethical moral universalists who believe that tolerance is a universal moral norm, and that there are probably others but they don't know for sure what they are.

    "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

    by kyril on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:34:38 AM PDT

    •  as for the substantive claim, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, trumpeter, pico, thinkingblue

      it is true that the Enlightenment did lead to the development of modern secular moral philosophy, including explorations of moral relativism. However, it is absolutely false that moral relativism led to the Holocaust. What enabled the Holocaust was (1) isolationism/non-interventionism and (2) general Western anti-Semitism and eugenics.

      In other words, there was nobody sitting around saying "I think it's wrong to kill millions of innocent people, but it's perfectly fine if the Nazis do it because that's their culture." There were people saying "it's wrong to kill millions of people, but we shouldn't intervene in other countries' affairs" and people saying "it's not wrong to kill Jews and 'defective' people".

      "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

      by kyril on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:48:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  DADT (0+ / 0-)

      Perfect paradigm!!!

      “When I was in the military they gave me a medal for killing two men and a discharge for loving one.”
      ― Leonard P. Matlovich

      A search for truth will find injustice!

      by thinkingblue on Fri May 03, 2013 at 03:16:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Time to take Faux News of the air PERIOD! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril, thinkingblue

    FCC needs to pull their broadcast rights NOW!

    Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

    by Mannie on Fri May 03, 2013 at 12:25:46 PM PDT

  •  And, Christianity led to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril, Prinny Squad

    the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem witch trials.

    Of course, fundamental Christians charge Jews with being the Christ killers.  Maybe, just maybe that has had something to do with regular pogroms against the Jews all over Europe.

    [Medicare, and Medicaid, and Social Security] do not make us a nation of takers; they free us to take the risks that make this country great.

    by MoDem on Fri May 03, 2013 at 01:28:16 PM PDT

  •  Copied from another diary: (0+ / 0-)

    "Reason caused the Holocaust" is a neat summary of the Dialektik der Aufklärung by Max Horkheimer and Theodor W. Adorno.

    But that would be like saying that Tristram Shandy is about some guy.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Fri May 03, 2013 at 03:22:22 PM PDT

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