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Leading Off:

Portland, OR: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?

My brain is thoroughly boggled, but apparently, the city of Portland, OR does not fluoridate its water—and even more mind-bendingly, a proposal to do so has generated intense controversy. Proponents have likened opponents to climate change deniers, but really, this is like saying Copernicus was wrong about the Earth orbiting the sun—or Pythagoras about the shape of the planet.

Sadly, it seems like Portlanders may be ready to burn a few scientists at the stake. Voters will decide on the fluoridation measure at the ballot box on May 21, and a new SurveyUSA poll shows an exasperating 48 percent plan to vote against it, while just 39 percent are in favor. Of course, polling ballot measures is inherently difficult, but really, this shouldn't be up for debate. Well, at least Portland will protect its precious bodily essences, and Gen. Jack D. Ripper's sacrifice won't have been in vain.


MA-Sen: Republican Senate candidate Gabriel Gomez is touting a new internal poll from OnMessage showing him trailing Rep. Ed Markey just 46-43 in the upcoming June special election. That spread is similar to the 44-40 Markey edge PPP found, though OnMessage puts the Democrat even closer to the 50 percent mark. Of course, it's very different from numbers we saw late last week from both MassINC and, especially, Suffolk, though MassINC also had Markey at 46.

OnMessage didn't release any polling on the MA-Sen election in 2012, but digging deep into the archives, our own Steve Singiser found several ugly misses from the firm last year:

MN-08: 50-40 Cravaack (R) vs. Nolan (D) in late October; Nolan won 54-45 (this was one of the worst polls of the cycle)

RI-01: 45-39 Doherty (R) vs. Cicilline (D) in late October; Cicilline won 53-41

TX-23: 47-37 Canseco (R) vs. Gallego (D) in late September; Gallego won 50-46

Of course, if OnMessage is wrong, PPP (which performed admirably in Massachusetts last year) is also wrong… but there's still a good bit of time left, and I'm sure we'll see more polling soon.

MN-Sen, -Gov: Is GOP Rep. Erik Paulsen finally done jerking us around? Maybe. Twice this year, Paulsen plainly said he wouldn't run for higher office, only to immediately turn around and baselessly insist that everyone else was all wet and that no, he wasn't ruling anything out. Well, after repeated nonsense like that, it's obviously impossible to trust him, but his latest statement seems a little more definitive. I'm not going to try to paraphrase him, though—read his own words and judge for yourself:

The three-term Minnesota Republican issued a statement Monday saying he has decided "not to seek election for a different office in 2014." Instead, he said he plans to seek another term in the U.S. House. […]

Paulsen said his decision came after "thinking carefully about how I can best help my fellow Minnesotans." He added: "If the people of the Third Congressional District will allow me, I hope to continue my work in the U.S. House of Representatives, where I can be most effective."

If Paulsen's word holds, it's only because he knows that seeking re-election is a vastly safer bet than making a bid for governor or senator, not because he's suddenly become a straight talkin' dude.

NH-Sen: Dartmouth College doesn't seem to poll very often—just once every April, according to their press release (PDF)—so it's impossible to say whether they were at all accurate last year. They do, however, have some numbers on New Hampshire's 2014 Senate race, though those look a little funky, too. They find Dem Sen. Jeanne Shaheen beating former Massachusetts Sen. Scott Brown 44-30 and state Sen. Jeb Bradley 48-25. The numbers for both Republican candidates seem awfully low, but all other polling we've seen has had Shaheen in the lead, so that much is easy to believe.

SD-Sen: Former Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin announced on Monday that she would not make a bid for South Dakota's open Senate seat next year. Polling had shown Herseth Sandlin as the most competitive potential Democratic candidate, but she still would have faced an uphill battle. She's also publicly said that she really enjoys her job as general counsel for high-tech manufacturing company Raven Industries, which is based in Sioux Falls and allows her to stay close to home, so her decision is not surprising.

After Herseth Sandlin, though, Team Blue's bench really thins out. U.S. Attorney Brendan Johnson (the son of Sen. Tim Johnson, whose retirement is leaving this seat vacant in the first place) also apparently won't run, though he hasn't actually said so himself. That leaves Democrats with former staffer Rick Weiland, who badly lost a race for South Dakota's lone House seat in 1996 and then fell in a primary to Herseth Sandlin in 2002. (Herseth Sandlin lost the general election that year, but went on to win a special election in 2004.)

At this point, the most interesting question is still whether former Gov. Mike Rounds will face a challenge from the right in the GOP primary, but whoever emerges as the Republican nominee will be favored in 2014.


CA-Gov: Jesus. Abel Maldonado is seriously pathetic.

FL-Gov: A good catch by DCCyclone, buried deep in this lengthy piece about GOP Gov. Rick Scott's re-election campaign effort:

Scott spent $75 million of his own money to narrowly beat Sink, the former chief financial officer, in 2010, and he told people afterward that he would spend none of his own money on the re-election.

His reported net worth has fallen from $218 million when he ran for governor to $83 million at the end of 2011, according to required financial disclosures. Scott's 2012 disclosure is due to be released this summer.

No one believes he would not dip into his own pockets if necessary, but Scott already is aggressively raising money for what he expects to be a $100 million re-election campaign. His political committee, Let's Get to Work, already has banked more than $10 million.

That's an extraordinary drop, particularly since that $218 million figure was from 2010. Even if you separate out that $75 mil from $218, that still leaves you with $143 million, which means that in the span of a single year, Scott's net worth fell by $62 million, or 43 percent. Could Scott's wealth managers really be that awful? Or did they just have terribly bad luck? Considering the S&P was up 13 percent in 2010, though, that makes Scott's decline look even more amazing. Maybe he's bounced back since—we'll know soon enough—but even if he has, this is still good news for Democrats, since he most definitely can't spend the same sums he once did.

Meanwhile, there's nothing newsy in this item from the Tampa Bay Times's Alex Leary, but I truly respect his tenacity and his understanding that subtle differences in phrasing can make a world of difference. From a new interview with Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson:

Q: Are you ready to emphatically state right now you are not going to run?

A: Oh, come on. I've already told you: I have no plans to run for governor. I have no intention of running for governor. Why can't you accept the King's English?

Q: Well, you know nobody does until you say 'I am declaring right now I am not running for governor.'

A: Why do I have to declare? I never declared that I was. Why do I have to declare that I'm not?

Q: So let me just ask in plain, we will not see you running for governor?

A: I've said what I said.

Q: That leaves a little bit of wiggle room.

A: Well, that's because you guys need something to write about.

Q: But you could right now say 'I'm not going to run' and that will clear it up.

A: I have no plans to run. I have no intention to run.

Q: I know, but that's different from saying I'm not going to run.

A: Awww, come on. Come on. Look I'm enjoying being senator. But I must say I'm frustrated. I'm very frustrated. I mean the extremists around here. You can't get anything done. The filibuster is really being abused.

And at that point, Nelson changes the conversation, but Leary has him dead to rights. Nelson refuses to say one way or the other what his plans are—as is his right—but his attempt to pin it on the press ("you guys need something to write about") is weak. He's allowed to say he hasn't made up his mind, if that's what he wants, but all this parsing wouldn't be necessary if only he'd just be a little bit clearer.

More importantly, though, let Leary's doggedness be a lesson to all political observers. You really and truly have to listen to the exact words that politicians use if you want to avoid getting misled. A lot of headlines (see here and here, for instance) have declared that Nelson simply "is not" running for governor, but that's just not the case. I don't think Nelson sounds especially likely to make a gubernatorial bid, but that's not the point. The point is that he's holding open the door, and that's what matters.

NJ-Gov: I supposed when you have an enormous cash advantage, you can simply spend heavily to avoid leaving anything to chance. But still, I find it a little unexpected that Gov. Chris Christie, who has sported 30-point leads in the polls, would feel it necessary to run ads attacking Democrat Barbara Buono… yet here we are. It's only a radio spot, though, going after Buono (rather predictably) as a tax-hiker. It's not clear how much Christie is spending on this commercial, but it's part of his recent $800,000 paid media buy.

VA-Gov: Ken Cuccinelli is out with his second ad of the election, which is all about taxes. On the one hand, it's full of Republican boilerplate: Small businesses are "over-taxed and over-regulated" so we need to give tax cuts to "job creating small businesses and middle class families." On the other hand, he tries to strike a mildly populist note by saying Virginia needs to be "closing tax loopholes and putting an end to special interest giveaways" and complaining that the "powerful and well connected already get their breaks."

That last line might sound like Cuccinelli's biggest departure from GOP orthodoxy, but it also points to a major weakness—namely, the fact that nutritional supplement maker Star Scientific lavished him and other state officials with tens of thousands in gifts, which certainly weren't offered in exchange for nothing at all. If the rich and powerful are "already getting their breaks," it's because guys like Cuccinelli have been helping them all along.


CA-15: Presumably in an attempt to dissuade would-be intra-party challenges, freshman Democratic Rep. Eric Swalwell announced the endorsement of none other than Nancy Pelosi on Monday. Of course, you'd expect the House Minority Leader to support members of her own party for re-election, but Pelosi's actually offered more than just words for Swalwell: She headlined a high-dollar DC fundraiser for him earlier this month. Swalwell's most likely opponent is state Senate Majority Leader Ellen Corbett, who, like Ro Khanna, declined to run against then-Rep. Pete Stark last year when she had the chance. But Swalwell knows how to make friends, unlike Stark, who could only make enemies, and Corbett would have been wiser to seize the opportunity Swalwell took last cycle.

GA-01: David Schwarz, a former staffer for Rep. Jack Kingston, announced on Monday that he'd run in the GOP primary for his old boss's seat. (Kingston is running for Senate.) The big cheese in the race so far, though, is still state Sen. Buddy Carter.

GA-11: As expected, Tricia Pridemore, a former official in Gov. Nathan Deal's administration, announced her campaign for Georgia's open 11th Congressional District on Monday. Pridemore recently resigned from her government post and joins three others in the GOP primary: state Rep. Ed Lindsey, ex-Rep. Bob Barr, and state Sen. Barry Loudermilk.

WV-02: Roll Call's Abby Livingston takes a broad look at possible Republican candidates for the seat Rep. Shelley Moore Capito is leaving open to run for Senate. We'd previously mentioned everyone she cites (here, here, and here), as well as a few others, but there is one brand new name, former U.S. International Trade Commissioner Charlotte Lane.

Other Races:

LA Mayor: SurveyUSA's newest Los Angeles mayoral runoff poll has it all tied up at 46 percent apiece between City Controller Wendy Greuel and City Councillor Eric Garcetti. Two weeks ago, Greuel held a 45-42 edge. The election is on May 21.

Pittsburgh Mayor: If Keystone Analytics is right, then it looks like the air may be leaking out of former state Auditor Jack Wagner's campaign for mayor as quickly as it whooshed in. The firm's new poll has City Councilman Bill Peduto legging out to a 39-32 lead in the Democratic primary, up from 38-36 in late April. It's been a swift turnaround for Wagner, though, who had surged out to a 38-30 advantage in early April, after trailing 30-20 in March. It's quite the seesaw of a race, though it will all be over a week from Tuesday.

Special Elections: Johnny Longtorso:

California SD-32: This is the runoff for the seat vacated by Rep. Gloria Negrete McLeod. The candidates are Assemblywoman Norma Torres, a Democrat, and Ontario Mayor Paul Leon, a Republican. In the first round, Torres received 44 percent, while Leon got 26 percent.
Johnny adds that overall, Democratic candidates took two thirds of the vote in the primary, while Republicans got just one third, so it's hard to imagine this one being competitive.

Grab Bag:

Indianapolis Council: Appalling. Republican Gov. Mike Pence just signed a blatant power-grab into law, a measure that eliminates four at-large seats in Indianapolis's so-called City-County Council. (The body's unusual name stems from the fact that the council covers all of Marion County, including the entire city of Indianapolis and a number of other towns.) All four of these at-large seats are held by Democrats, allowing them to hold a narrow 15-14 majority overall in the chamber.

It's a pretty shabby state of affairs to begin with, given that Marion County went for Obama by a 60-38 margin in 2012. But even though lame-duck Republicans snuck through a last-minute redistricting plan in 2011 right before Democrats retook control, that apparently wasn't enough for the GOP, which has evidently decided it wants the council back by hook or by crook. The law, passed by the Republican-dominated legislature, won't go into effect until 2015, so Democrats will remain in power for now, but they'll have a difficult time doing so in the future—which of course is exactly the point.

Maps: Reuben Fischer-Baum of Deadspin has a great new map illustrating who the highest-paid public employee in each state is. More than half are college football coaches, and over a dozen are basketball coaches. A handful, concentrated in the northeast and the northern Great Plains, are school administrators, mostly at medical schools.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Elections on Tue May 14, 2013 at 05:00 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  NC Redistricting Case to Move Forward (8+ / 0-)

    This is a step in the right direction.

    A three-judge panel on Monday ordered a trial on lawsuits challenging how the Republican-controlled legislature redrew North Carolina's congressional and legislative district maps in 2011.

    The three Superior Court judges hearing the lawsuits say there are enough factual disputes over two issues to have a single judge hear evidence and rule on them:

    1. Were some districts drawn to minority majority standards without a reasonable history of racial voting problems?

    2. Why were 4th and 12 Congressional districts, Senate districts 31 and 32 and House districts 51 and 54 drawn as they were?

    Democratic congressmen David Price and Mel Watt hold the two congressional districts in question. The two Senate districts cover Forsyth and Yadkin counties, and the two House districts cover all of Chatham and Lee counties and part of Harnett County.

    The trial will be begin June 4th or 5th.

    Filibuster reform, 2013 - woulda, coulda, shoulda.

    by bear83 on Tue May 14, 2013 at 05:14:18 AM PDT

  •  ... (18+ / 0-)
    "If fluoride in water was a communist plot, why are frack fluids OK?"

    Help me to be the best Wavy Gravy I can muster

    by BOHICA on Tue May 14, 2013 at 05:25:20 AM PDT

    •  California has more than its share of anti-fluor- (0+ / 0-)

      idians.  Legislators are also considering banning fracking.

      Putting the fun back in dysfunctional.

      by hawkseye on Tue May 14, 2013 at 07:21:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fluoride (10+ / 0-)

      Don't forget that fluoride is a poison that accumulates in our bones. It has been associated with cancer in young males; osteoporosis; reduced I.Q.; and hip fractures in the elderly, to name a few. Its use in water has been discontinued in Europe.
      There are plenty of fluoride laced toothpastes on the market for those that may want them. I respect people's right to choose if they want their drinking water to be polluted or not.

      •  Hogwash (13+ / 0-)

        Fluoride is not a poison anymore than water is a poison. Ingested in high enough concentrations anything can be toxic. There is zero real evidence that fluoride causes cancer. In fact there are numerous studies that prove no connection whatsoever. The reduced IQ studies were done from records about communities in China where no other cross contaminating chemistry was investigated and also where the concentrations of fluoride occurring naturally in the water were more than 10-20 times that which will be used in the Portland water system. There is zero proof that fluoride is causing the hip fractures in elderly.

        The reason that it is not in water systems in Europe is because of lack of infrastructure. Instead many counties in Europe fluoridate their table salt.

        I love how you used the charged language of calling toothpaste fluoride "laced". Fluoridated toothpaste does help but numerous studies have shown that the systemic fluoride in your system, in your saliva, bathing your teeth in a constant low level fluoride bath, is much more helpful to your teeth. Not only does it help to re-mineralize your teeth from active decay but it also directly reduces the amount of bacteria in your mouth that create the acids that cause cavities.

        •  70 mg of water will not kill you. (0+ / 0-)

          There's a 50/50 shot that 70mg of Hexafluorosilicic acid will.

          Europe is not lacking in basic water treatment infrastructure.  That argument can best be described as "fucking goofy".

          There's no question that fluoride strengthens tooth enamel.   There's also no question - at all - that too much of it is harmful.

          Even the CDC recently adjusted its recommendation for both the ideal and maximum "safe" levels of fluoride.

          The science based approach is to continue to reevaluate what is the ideal level of water fluoridation.  Unless we know the naturally occurring level of fluoride in the water supply in Portland, it's impossible for us to even opine as to whether additional fluoridation is a wise move or an idiotic notion.

          But, Dr. Strangelove is always good for a belly laugh, so fuck science.

          "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

          by JesseCW on Wed May 15, 2013 at 06:35:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you (0+ / 0-)

        Your concise and factual response is greatly appreciated and much more helpful for making informed decisions than "hair on fire" fact-free diatribes.

      •  Fluoride is poisonous ... (0+ / 0-)

        except in the trace amounts that are needed for teeth and bones. The lethal dose for adults is 5 to 10 grams. I doubt that dangerous amounts are added to water supplies.
        I use Crest toothpaste, which is fluoridated.
        I suppose I would vote for fluoridation of a public water supply, but I might change my mind. It could be called paternalistic.

        Censorship is rogue government.

        by scott5js on Tue May 14, 2013 at 01:16:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Also, we share the planet. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Fluoride is toxic to fish and Portland water runoff in many places flows directly to streams with no treatment facilities in place--not that water treatment plants do anything about fluoride anyway. We've had enough issues with keeping our salmon and steelhead runs healthy to the point of destroying dams that impact spawning grounds--so why should we deliberately introduce a toxic substance into that ecosystem for no other reason than to possibly improve human-only dental health? Especially when the jury is WAY out on that to begin with?

        Fluoridation is a shitty feelgood copout from a country that can't be arsed to actually make REAL dental care affordable and available. I say let's stop buying fertilizer waste to dump into our (fucking pristine and delicious TYVM) water supply and figure out how to get kids to the dentist instead. How about we give fluoride tablets to parents free so they can give it to the kids when they're small? Wouldn't that make more sense than to just mindlessly dump chemicals into the water? Because the vast majority of that water isn't directly applied to teeth--it gets sprayed on yards and bathed in and used to wash cars and used in industry. None of that fixes a single tooth, but all of that will end up in the Willamette fucking up the fish. Screw that noise.

        "Nothing's wrong, son, look at the news!" -- Firesign Theater

        by SmartAleq on Tue May 14, 2013 at 05:33:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Much of the objection to fluoridation in PDX isn't (4+ / 0-)

      really an issue with fluoridation, For many, the issue is a matter of 1) "dang liberals on the council", 2) the cost of the program and 3) adding ANYTHING to the water - some would object if pure distilled water was added back in. Basically, the water bureau in PDX is used as a source of funds for any number of other programs, and people have really gotten tired of high water bills in part because of funding being diverted to other programs.

      Good Sense is Seldom Common

    •  Another piece of information... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      From Wikipedia, there are certain areas of the world where the groundwater is naturally high in Fluoride. These include the area around the American Great Lakes, most of India, most of non-coastal Argentina AND a triangle in North America running more or less from Seattle to San Diego to Austin.

      So Portland may already have enough Fluoride in their water!

  •  Latino RNC Official Becomes Democrat! (11+ / 0-)

    The state director for the RNC's Florida Latino outreach project leaves the RNC, defects to the Democratic party, denounces Republican racism, and makes a donation to the ACLU. He announced all this in a letter to the Tampa Bay Times.

    Pantoja also mentions the now-famous Heritage Foundation about Latinos and low IQ.

    Wow! That is a big, fat, embarrassing defection for Republicans. Pablo Pantoja was a high-ranking official in a swing state. Normally, this type of thing wouldn't seem so big, but he really tore the GOP apart in his letter. Democrats would do well to talk about this endlessly, and send his letter to every Latino door in Florida. Students for a New American Politics!

    by redrelic17 on Tue May 14, 2013 at 05:55:35 AM PDT

  •  Flouridation in Portland (17+ / 0-)

    has lost before, and it looks certain to lose again. It's insane. A large portion of the left/liberal community is totally opposed.

    Alpacas spit if you annoy them. So don't do that.

    by alpaca farmer on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:06:03 AM PDT

    •  Hydrofluorsilicic Acid is hazardous waste and (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bewild, ehavenot, Chinton, Whitewitch

      Is byproduct of fertilizer manufacturing. Ugh.

      "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

      by Kvetchnrelease on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:10:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I recall this controversy half a century ago. (14+ / 0-)

      Shocking that we're still fighting on this issue.  Much like the vaccination issue, IMHO.

      •  Don't get me started on the anti-vaxxers... (10+ / 0-)

        It's not only dangerous what those idiots preach, it's downright offensive to me as someone who is high-functioning autistic.

        But... don't want to delve into the policy stuff, this is still an elections site after all.

        Politics and more Formerly DGM on SSP. NM-01, 26 (chairman of the Atheist Caucus)

        by NMLib on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:23:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not unique to Portland (6+ / 0-)

        Our city water supply in Manchester, NH did not have flouride, so we had to give our kiddies drops. Nary a cavity among them. (I, on the other hand, was in a flouridated water supply growing up, and have a mouthful of fillings and now crowns.)

        I'm agnostic on this -- I don't like having extra chemicals in the water, not convinced it's that useful, but also do not see it as a socialist UN-driven world government conspiracy, or as a chemical/Big Pharma-driven compulsory poison. I'm actually far more concerned about other hormones and pharmaceuticals and chemicals in the drinking water, especially the ones that don't even get measured.

        •  As a child, our school district participated (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gabjoh, beav, Code Monkey, 6412093, JesseCW

          in a study of fluoridated water (late 40's, early 50's).  Dentists came to our elementary school and examined the teeth of our entire grade level for several years.  The outcome was overwhelmingly in favor of fluoridation, although like anything else it may not make a difference for everybody.

          I share your concern for other things in our water from industrial and agricultural runoff.

        •  I grew up without fluoridated water. Never (0+ / 0-)

          had a cavity until I was in my mid 30's, and that was with multiple lengthy periods in which I could not afford any dental care.

          The "halo effect" means that our canned soup is made with fluoridated water boiled down two fold, our orange juice from concentrate has fluoridated water added, and even soft drinks are often made with fluoridated water.

          What we do know is that most of the studies on water fluoridation were done back when there wasn't even fluoride in the toothpaste.

          I won't be at all surprised if we see the CDC continue to reduce their optimum levels as more and more of these sources are considered.

          "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

          by JesseCW on Wed May 15, 2013 at 06:45:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, honestly not surprising... (16+ / 0-)

          There's a big piece of the liberal/progressive community that is anti-science on many health-related topics, taking the anti-vaccine/alternative medicine point of view. Fluoride is "not natural" & "pushed by Big Pharma." It is "polluting our bodies with more chemicals."

      -7.25, -6.26

      We are men of action; lies do not become us.

      by ER Doc on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:24:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. (6+ / 0-)

        It's pretty isolated though. That segment of the left has almost no elected officials, with retiring Sentor Harkin being the closest (he found the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine). Also, recently published research shows that anti-vaccine sentiment is more widespread among the right than among the left.

        Portland. Snicker. (Sorry, James, can you vote there yet?) Students for a New American Politics!

        by redrelic17 on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:28:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Harkin also developed the DoD Breast Cancer (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blue91, tacet, offgrid, JesseCW

          Research Program, one of the most innovative and productive cancer research programs in the US.  Yeah, the same program that discovered the Her2neu oncogene and helped develop Herceptin - the last significant medical discovery in breast cancer treatment.

          Agree with NCCAM or don't, but it is a research program that has been designed with rigorous standards for quality research.  It's also transparent and reports research results to the public, something you can't say for most other federally funded medical research programs.  NCCAM at least report the results of their research, good or bad.

          "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being up there."

          by Betty Pinson on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:42:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Portland, OR is strangely reassuring... (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      quill, askew, gabjoh, beav, Chas 981, 6412093

      ...As flouridation looks to be going down to defeat again, it's a reminder that not all of the kooks are here in Texas, where at least all the towns in the Dallas area have flouridated water...

      Political Compass: -6.75, -3.08

      by TexasTom on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:28:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  fluoride for lower income (5+ / 0-)

      Fluoride in water is one of those services we provide for the lower income people.  These are people who might not have access to quality tooth hygiene products such as fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash.  These are the people  who are actually going to drink tap water instead of bottled water the like.  For instance, the lower income people will use tap water to make 'juice' from powdered mix.

      Portland, a small community where income is above the state and national averages, so perhaps fluoridation in water is not for them.  It is true that fluoridation is not a magic bullet that will solve all oral health care problems.  It is probably true if a family has access to high quality medical care and food that fluoridation in the water is probably not going to do much of anything.  And, given that Portland seems to have a high level of junk food, in terms of sugary coffe drinks, the fluoride is not going to do any good.

      •  this (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Fluoride in water is one of those services we provide for the lower income people.
        The sad, face-palming hilarity of liberals from Portland, OR to Davis, CA standing cheek and jowl with Cold War John Birchers makes one chuckle.... until one realizes how disturbingly symptomatic the thinking is, and how congruent it is with other attacks on the very idea of a public good.

        Pensions? Nah, my portfolio is doing aces. Single-payer health care? No way! I've got great insurance! Vaccines? Why? My kid doesn't have pertussis! Fluoride? Why would I want to participate in something the CDC calls one of the top 10 public health triumphs of the twentieth century? Don't you take your kids to the dentist every six months and ensure they have nightly access to high-quality mouthwash?

        Gods. These people.

    •  great article in this week's Portland Mercury (7+ / 0-)

      In case there are any Portlanders who haven't voted yet and who have been swayed by the anti-fluoridation arguments (many of them presented right here!), you really should check out the Portland Mercury article "The Sanest Arguments Against Fluoride... And Why They're Still Wrong"

      History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx

      by quill on Tue May 14, 2013 at 08:36:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  My dad grew up in Portland, (4+ / 0-)

      and had full dentures by the age of 30.  When I was a kid, he helped lead the fight to fluoridate the water in our small town.  It's an important public health measure, and I appreciate his efforts.

    •  Flouridation (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3rock, Whitewitch

      Why not let people make their own choices? If you want flouride, you can get it in your toothpaste. If you don't want it, you shouldn't have it put in your water against your will. In Europe, they put it in salt instead of the water because you can't control the dose if it's in the water. Makes sense.

      People wish to be settled, only as far as they are unsettled is there any hope for them. - Emerson

      by CarbonFiberBoy on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:09:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  great point! remove the chlorine from the water (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        supply next. You do know that Portland water is heavily chlorinated (among other things), right? TO ARMS! EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO DRINK UNCHLORINATED WATER IF THEY WISH. I mean, it's easy enough to add if you want it, right?

        •  If you want to get rid of chlorine, let your (0+ / 0-)

          water stand a while or just boil it.

          There's no such easy fix for fluoridation.

          And, no, I'm not against ensuring that drinking water meets both the higher and lower recommendations set by the CDC when it comes to fluoride.

          "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

          by JesseCW on Wed May 15, 2013 at 06:49:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  This has been going on for over 40 years (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      6412093, rsmpdx

      40 years ago it was the right screaming about fluoride as a commie plot.  This time around it's the crunchy granola crowd who won't vaccinate their kids and give you  a superior glare from their bikes as they (illegally) block the street.

      I don't know why Portland is so odd about fluoride - no logical reason that I have been able to discern.

    •  Centers for Disease Control (CDC) (0+ / 0-)

      endorses fluoridation of water supplies.  As their relevant web page states:

      For 65 years, community water fluoridation has been a safe and healthy way to effectively prevent tooth decay. CDC has recognized water fluoridation as one of 10 great public health achievements of the 20th century.
      A ton of great resources on the CDC page.

      Whoever has a better body of evidence to refute CDC, American Dental Association, EPA, American Medical Association among many others, please, cite it.

      And please cite studies about the harm done by fluoride in water in the recommended concentration of 0.7ppm.  At 4ppm fluoride is clearly harmful.  But that is not relevant to the Portland proposal.

      "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

      by rsmpdx on Tue May 14, 2013 at 01:07:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Are you surprised? (0+ / 0-)

    Few take seriously the threat of the dangerous ignorance promoted n the Right. Most liberals just laugh it off. Meanwhile, the forces of ignorance methodically ply their trade, installing their people into school boards, municipal leadership and the halls of Congress. These people are an existential threat to the human race.

  •  It is Jack T. Ripper... aka... (0+ / 0-)

    Jack The Ripper .... gallows humor inside gallows humor, making it all such a masterpiece.

  •  The fluoridation issue cuts me to the quick (16+ / 0-)

    as my community in NW Washington has gone through the struggle to get our water fluoridated numerous times. Most recently - about ten years ago - it was defeated because the same junk science arguments being made in Portland were put forth by fringe groups; the fact that all dentists and pediatricians here supported the measure made no difference to these naysayers, as they brought forth some bogus arguments ostensibly based on "science."
    The town I grew up in, on the east coast, rejected fluoridation for a different reason: it was a" communist plot." I have had horrible dental problems throughout my life and spend thousands of dollars to address them. But it's not even the money - there's no way to replicate a healthy mouth or compensate for the discomfort of constant problems with your teeth.

    •  how we will look in the future (4+ / 0-)

      In 200 years I think people are going to look back on us with the same sense of disbelief we have towards the times when leeches and bloodletting were considered valid medical procedures.

      In some ways the situation today is even worse. Centuries ago people just didn’t know any better. Now, the knowledge is there but a large plurality just choose to ignore it.

      Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

      by Joe Bob on Tue May 14, 2013 at 08:12:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Leeches (0+ / 0-)

        Are actually beneficial in the cases of non-healing wounds.  They seem to clean out the wound and encourage healing by the slim they leave behind.  Just saying, not all medicine was hoodoo - sometimes they actually saw a benefit from using their "primitive ways" and so continued them.  

        Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

        by Whitewitch on Tue May 14, 2013 at 01:47:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not only fringe groups here: Sierra Club, to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      their discredit, opposes Portland fluoridation.

      That is, the Columbia Group (local Sierra Club) opposes it.  As a 30+ year member, I blistered them with a letter today.

      In part:

      Finally, the press release quotes Sheila Golden, “We can better serve Portland kids by increasing their access to dental care and prevention.”  Great!  What are the details of your plan, how much does it cost, and why is it better?  How does it serve those who are not currently getting adequate dental care, such as people in poverty and dysfunctional household situations?  What is Columbia Group’s history of advocating these measures, and how do you plan to address them going forward?

      Considering the lack of evidence to support your extraordinary claim of harm from Portland’s water fluoridation proposal, Columbia Group’s opposition is a violation of the trust of your members, indeed, of Portland voters.  To earn our trust back, you must begin now to demonstrate honesty and diligence in your endorsements.  An excellent start would be to rescind your opposition to Portland’s fluoridation prior to the May 21 election.

      I encourage other Columbia Group members to chime in as well.

      "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

      by rsmpdx on Tue May 14, 2013 at 01:19:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That just gives me a massive (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        headache. "Dental care and prevention" are not subsitutes for fluoridation, even if the Sierra Club had a plan. Which it evidently didn't.

        •  To be fair, it is just my assumption that (0+ / 0-)

          Columbia Group doesn't have a plan.  I haven't heard back from them on that point yet, just having sent them my letter this morning.

          It seems doubtful that they have substance to back up a seemingly glib suggestion, but maybe they'll prove me wrong.

          "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

          by rsmpdx on Tue May 14, 2013 at 05:19:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I am floridated and always have been (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I still have expensive and awful dental problems.  I have seen no evidence that drinking fluoridated water ever saved my teeth, lessened cavities.  Seriously - 10 root canals, so many cavities I can't count them and now they are being capped or falling out.    So I am sorry that you think you missed a big advantage somehow by not being exposed to fluoridated water, but it is really just hype that it actually provides any benefit.

      Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

      by Whitewitch on Tue May 14, 2013 at 01:38:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's scientific? (0+ / 0-)

        Calling the conclusions of dentists and doctors based on medical literature and scientific studies "hype."
        I'm sorry for your situation - which sounds a lot like mine. But you are making an anecdotal evidence, at best.

    •  Surprised at the reaction (0+ / 0-)

      People who I have know to be otherwise very level-headed have gone really around the bend on this matter.

      There just seems to be a visceral reaction against the idea that they will be "forced" to ingest something against their will.

  •  I thought this would be about mara-ju-wanna (0+ / 0-)

    as mara-ju-wanna is the worst threat to Urinary Purity known to idiots who actually have the power to control things in this country.

    If the ONLY way to do drug testing was submitting a stool sample, would YOU be so thrilled to provide the specimen as you are to pee into a cup? Would you actually crap on command to show your drug-freeness to some dimwitted fascist?

  •  Portland Fluoridation. (8+ / 0-)

    Ah, I see the "no" side is going for the New Age anti-chemical position. Probably a winner in Portlandia.

    "Keep Portland weird." You know what else is weird, the NAACP opposes it Portland because the spokesman says it may have some causative effect on diabetes. A literature search reveals that to be on the level of the "precious bodily fluids" argument.

    Favorite. Scene. Ever.
    "I first noticed it during the physical act of love..."
    Was that supposed to be a hint that General Ripper has some repressed homosexual tendencies? Students for a New American Politics!

    by redrelic17 on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:15:46 AM PDT

  •  We overestimate how far we have progressed (4+ / 0-)

    out of the cave.

    And that will be our doom.

    The elevation of appearance over substance, of celebrity over character, of short term gains over lasting achievement displays a poverty of ambition. It distracts you from what's truly important. - Barack Obama

    by helfenburg on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:15:53 AM PDT

  •  *eyeroll* Dammit, Portland. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flumptytail, quill, gabjoh, Anima, 6412093

    Don't make me embarrassed to like you so much.

    Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
    Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
    Code Monkey like you!

    Formerly known as Jyrinx.

    by Code Monkey on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:19:30 AM PDT

  •  I'm against fluoridated water (17+ / 0-)

    And I am an actual scientist.  :D

    “The key takeaway for me in the study is one, they didn’t rule out the danger, and two, they said further research is necessary,” said Don Landis, a spokesman for the group Wichitans Opposed to Fluoridation. “That’s what we’re saying; the science is not settled.”

    “No research is done on low-dosage fluoride,” he added. “The Harvard study is very valuable in pointing that out.”

    Landis said he has looked for and been unable to find comprehensive research on the effect of fluoride, “not on just the so-called effect on teeth, but to the rest of the body.”

    If no research has been done, then how can risk be properly assessed?  The studies that show harm to IQ have levels of fluoride only ten times higher than those found in the US.  And the dosage is hardly controlled--variations in cooking practice and water intake are highly variable.

    It provides very little benefit to the teeth.  If there is concern about low-income children having poor dental health, the answer is to provide free fluoridated toothpaste to low-income families, not expose the entire population to a chemical with unknown risks on brain development.

    •  Socialism!!!!!!! (14+ / 0-)
      If there is concern about low-income children having poor dental health, the answer is to provide free fluoridated toothpaste to low-income families,
      The cost of implementing the fluoridation scheme is $5 million to set it up and $500,00 per year to operate. That's a lot of toothpaste. It could also provide for free or low cost dental clinics which would IMO produce better results in the long run.

      I'm voting No also.

      Help me to be the best Wavy Gravy I can muster

      by BOHICA on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:32:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  exactly (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brentbent, cordgrass, BOHICA

        there are other ways to get dental care to low-income people than by adulterating the water supply.  crimanetly!

        Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

        by Cedwyn on Tue May 14, 2013 at 08:55:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah! (0+ / 0-)

        You have an excellent point...thank you for sharing it.  I think funding dental clinics is far better than hoping low income families drink enough water to cut down on cavities...especially since there is no evidence that fluoride works after a child is a few years old...sorry Facts, are Facts.

        Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

        by Whitewitch on Tue May 14, 2013 at 01:52:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And it's a poison. (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hmi, cordgrass, bewild, Cedwyn, brentbent, 3rock

      Why deliberately ingest a poisonous chemical for a dubious benefit? It's the topical application of fluoride that strengthens the teeth, not fluoride in the blood. Most people get plenty from toothpaste. Some people get too much - there's enough fluoride in most tubes of paste to kill a small child - that's why there's a poison warning on the tube.

  •  Dangerous ignorance? (16+ / 0-)

    Personally I am agnostic about water flouridation.  The fact that Sweden, Finland, the Netherlands, Germany, and Japan (among other relatively-enlightened countries) have stopped the practice, however, indicates that opposition to flouridation does not arise solely from dangerously ignorant right-wingers.

    The obeisance to conventional wisdom on this site depresses.  

    •  correct (5+ / 0-)

      Opposition to science based public policy like fluoridation and vaccination does not come solely from dangerously ignorant right wingers. It also comes from dangerously ignorant left wingers too (and everyone in between).

      America does not have a monopoly on anti science public sentiment. Most of those European countries stopped fluoridating water due to public demand, despite the fact that various scientific / health policy advisory bodies continue to recommend it.

      History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx

      by quill on Tue May 14, 2013 at 08:01:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  San Jose (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      San Jose CA, where I spent many years, is proceeding to fluoridate its water. [2012]

      There were intermittent proposals for all the years I lived there, including lawsuits by opponents.

      At one time, if my memory serves, SJ voted to fluoridate but the private water company was sued by non SJ residents also served by the company, and the fluoridation failed.

      I recall the inanity of the opposing arguments at the time, and apparently they still have not changed.

  •  Re Fluoridation: You're Wrong (11+ / 0-)

    I don't think fluoridation is a communist plot, I doubt if it has any significant ill effects on humans who drink fluoridated water -- but it's absurd to compare people who oppose fluoridation of the water supply to climate change deniers.

    If I lived in Portland, I would vote against fluoridation.  Why?  Because I don't want to put any more unnecessary chemicals in my body.  If anyone wants to take fluoride to strengthen their teeth, fine.  They are free to do that.  The government could even distribute it free to anyone who wants it, if prevention of cavities is such a crucial public health concern.  But why should it be forced on people who don't want it?  

    Incidentally, fluoridation would be completely unnecessary if people would lay off the sugar and practice good dental hygeine.

    "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

    by RenMin on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:36:51 AM PDT

  •  If I am not mistaken... (0+ / 0-)

    ...our water, from Bull Run, was fluoridated when I grew up in Lake Oswego.

  •  Michelle Bachmann says (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pale Jenova

    She thinks fluoridated water will cause 14 year old girls to become mentally retarded, wait that's the HPV vaccine...

    Just another day in Oceania.

    by drshatterhand on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:41:32 AM PDT

  •  Did Rick Scott move his money? (0+ / 0-)

    One question that occurs to me about Rick Scott's reported drop in assets is whether he has moved say half of his holdings offshore, to places where they're conveniently hidden, or put into a trust, or something that his advisors believe entitles him to not list them as "assets." I hope some of you Florida mavens and/or some other journalists will poke around and try to match these new reports to other information.

  •  I grew up with fluoridated water (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue91, LordMike, bewild

    and I have great teeth, for whatever that anecdotal evidence is worth.

    That said, I can somewhat understand the controversy from the other side.  Even though the benefits of fluoridation are well known and documented, there's still something objectively weird and unsettling about a government mandating that a chemical additive be put into a public water supply.

    You can't spell CRAZY without R-AZ.

    by rb608 on Tue May 14, 2013 at 07:02:29 AM PDT

    •  your teeth may be nice, but (7+ / 0-)

      Harvard study shows:

      "researchers from Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) and China Medical University in Shenyang for the first time combined 27 studies and found strong indications that fluoride may adversely affect cognitive development in children."

      So, no, this ain't tin foil hat territory. And folks with young children are right to at least question the use of fluoride in water supplies.

      •  Did you read their Sept 2012 statement? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        genocideisnews, 6412093, rsmpdx

        The one that noted that their results were based on orders of magnitude more fluoride than anything found in the US? The one that corresponded with a correction of the standard deviation and strength of correlation (snort)? The one that admitted that they found exactly no evidence that flouride at the levels added in the US has any evidence of harm?

        They conclude, "These results do not allow us to make any judgment regarding possible levels of risk at levels of
        exposure typical for water fluoridation in the U.S. On the other hand, neither can it be concluded that no
        risk is present."

        i.e., we found nothing, we hyped our nothing bullshit finding, but you should fund our work generously anyway.

        That is tinfoil bullshit. Enough H2O will kill you. Maybe we should keep it out of the water supply. It is tinfoil bullshit that hurts children who lack dental care.

  •  OMG, the fluoride wars in Portland (6+ / 0-)

    I've heard the "and that's just like Hitler" argument from the anti folks; apparently someone claimed fluoride is used in rat poison (!?!), which then gets linked to cyanide, which then get links to gas chambers, which then--well, you get the drift.

    I had fun reading the letters to the editor in the Portland Mercury--they read like the Kos hate mail, though with better spelling.

    For their part, the pro side dealt out the Race Card early on, accusing opponents of flashing their "White Privilege" (though I saw that bullshit argument here on Daily Kos during the health care debate), and engaged in shifty election tricks . . . but the antis take the cake--you'd think someone had proposed adding plutonium to the water.

    Still--keep Portland weird--or at least, BEERed?

    And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

    by Pale Jenova on Tue May 14, 2013 at 07:10:41 AM PDT

  •  ugh. Opposition to H2O flour is left+right fringe (8+ / 0-)

    pet issue.

    Usually goes together with the anti-vaccine movement.

    In Israel these new-Ageists (who can safely count my own sister among their numbers) have just scored a major victory, when the incoming health minister
    (a woman and one of the quasi-liberal figleafs of the new Thatcherite-Putinite government) has just nixed the national flourination program.

    The national dentist association, OTOH, was not so thrilled. To be continued...

    Good luck Portland in fending off the tinfoil hat people!

    •  not so fast... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cedwyn, johnel, cordgrass

      see the Harvard study I linked above

      And for the record, I am not nor have I ever been anti-vaccine. If you're for science and have children, you can't ignore a study that says childrens' cognitive ability could be affected.

      Again, this is not tin foil hat territory.

      •  that claim has been debunked (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        genocideisnews, 6412093, rsmpdx

        If you're really pro vax, then I'd expect you to be more objective and do a little research (aka Googling), at which point you would discover that this particular CT is a deliberate distortion of a Harvard study, promoted by an anti-fluoridation, anti-vax crackpot. Long story short, the Harvard study conditions do not compare with municipal fluoridation. There is no credible evidence that water fluoridation has any effect on cognitive function.

        History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx

        by quill on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:32:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And again here it the link to authors admitting BS (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        genocideisnews, quill, rsmpdx

        revised == no actual relevant findings due to massive concentrations measured in China. Stats were wrong. Fund us anyway!

        And that link is right at the bottom of the link you keep posting, so lonesomerobot you know you are lying.

      •  Do you even read the responses? (0+ / 0-)

        Here and above, to the links debunking this Harvard study of fluoride concentrations many times the level in water supplies?

        Or do you just keep posting the same thing, no matter what the response is?

        ::: crickets :::

        "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

        by rsmpdx on Tue May 14, 2013 at 04:15:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Looks like they will mangage (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      genocideisnews, 6412093

      to keep us in the dental dark ages again.  But you are correct that the anti-fluoride brigade has a big overlap with the anti-vaccine crowd.  On NPR this morning was a news brief that most people find hipsters annoying.  Hipster parents are even worse.  

      Someone needs to tell them that at a certain point herd immunity disappears.

  •  My little town has no fluoride... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RadGal70, quill, redwagon, 6412093, rsmpdx

    ...largely thanks to the combined efforts of the owners of a local 'health food' store and the usual nutters. Unfortunately, we also have people who refer to the IRS as "revenuers," shades of "Dogpatch" or the "Beverly Hillbillies." I'm glad my freedom to have tooth decay shall not be infringed!

  •  PA-Sen, Sestak (4+ / 0-)

    Just received an email from former Rep. Sestak announcing an exploratory committee for PA-Sen.

  •  Is there some conspiracy theory going on? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I noticed in the poll minority groups, lower income and lesser educated are the most heavily opposed to flouride.  Is there some conspiracy theory being spread in these communities leading people to think they're going to be government guinea pigs?

  •  Yea Portland! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Been a vege 43 years.
    I live in L.A., fluoridated.
    One time they were replacing water lines. The water ORANGE. They recommended drinking bottled.
    My construct, bottled water the absurdity! $ for water!
    Here's my recommendation TRY bottled water for a month.
    The first thing I noticed, I was drinking 4 times more water. I realized FOR YEARS, I had not been drinking enough water. WHY?
    THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH fluoride THE BODY CAN HANDLE. Besides who really knows what chemical reactions HAPPEN. I.e., What meds am I on?
    EVERYONE is different.
    The simplicity of WHY they fluoridate? Cheaper than fixing aging water lines, sewer lines, etc. & the boneus of doctor$ & hospital$ from bodies that haven't properly flushed in years.
    If you live in a fluorescently fluoridated, Try drinking bottled water for a month, you'll be astonished!
    If you want fluoride buy toothpaste, don't make those who are sensitive die for you!
    Sick of this CAPITAL construct of having to DIE for every BODY else!
    I repeat, Try bottled water or knot fluoridated water for a month.
    You'll be amazed.  
    The best thing is win the nutcases argue, YOU WILL KNOW what's simply naturally real.

    •  PS (0+ / 0-)

      Forgot to ADD
      How developers circumvent federal water allotments.

    •  When they change water lines or even just do a (5+ / 0-)

      major flush, the water will be reddish until the rust and sediment is washed out. Nothing to do with your boog a boo about flouride. I could go on about all the silly crap the anti-flouride crowd spews but just like anti vaccine and con trial believers it won't get through the haze. Out of all the health and wellness  providers out there it seems the ones most prone to spreading these falehoods are Chiropracters. Why is that?

      I'd tip you but they cut off my tip box. The TSA would put Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad on the no-fly list.

      by OHdog on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:33:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ummm not to sound like a Bircher but (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brentbent, GayHillbilly, 3rock

    fluoride is not good, fluoride is a hormone disruptor, why would we put it in the water?

    They used to use fluoride to treat high thyroid but they found stuff that works better. Still, its not a good idea to mess with the hormones of the entire population.

    I hope Portland smartens up fast and votes that shit down!

    •  WOW (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      antimony, Chinton

      I'm 62.
      The amount of people nowadays who have their thyroids taken out.

    •  Wow indeed (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      genocideisnews, 6412093, Inkpen

      And enough water can drown you!!!! Stop H20!

      Well I guess the right does not have a monopoly on ignorant, hysterical rejection of science.

      There is no evidence of a link between fluoridation in water and thyroid conditions. There are decades of population data on fluoridation in water. There is no evidence of harm. Nada nothing nix.

      There is a serious, clear, obvious link between fluoride and dental health. You are causing other people real pain with your ignorance. Specifically, you are causing children with less than excellent dental insurance pain and physical harm.

      You  need to understand the concept of "orders of magnitude" and "parts per million".

      Your comments on fluoride causing your dehydration is pretty much insane. I mean, in the nicest way, bat shit crazy. Tap water is usually more clean and more pure than bottled water.  This depends on the region, of course, but you have no idea what is in your bottled water.

      •  ya, expect a population (0+ / 0-)

        with rampant thyroid problems, often undiagnosed. Let's all ignore that fluoride was prescribed for overactive thyroid in Europe until the 70's.

        Symptoms of low thyroid:
        lethargic, low energy
        weight problems

        but I'm sure there is no connection with these symptoms gone wild in our society. Sure there are other things at play here however futzing with the endocrine system of an entire population is not a good idea.

        •  Actually hyperthyroid is more common. (0+ / 0-)

          If fluoride was depressing the thyroid in the population, then why the dramatic incidence of hyperthyroid? You would expect the opposite result. Evern when it comes to autoimmune diseases of the thyroid, there are at least 5 cases of Graves Disease for every 1 case of Hashimoto's.

          BTW I grew up in an area that added fluoride to water when I was 7. I was diagnosed wih Graves Disease when I was 58. It runs in families and two other female members of my family have been similarly diagnosed. One was raised on a farm in rural Virginia drinking well water. The other in an urban area that began fluoridating water when she was in her teens.

          Carbimazole is the most commonly prescribed drug in Europe and Asia for overactive thyroid. It is not related to fluoride. It belongs to a class of drug called thionamides. The older thionamide used in Europe is propylthiouracil, also unrelated to fluoride.  

      •  $ (0+ / 0-)

        I would bet $ that if records were available that a year after fluoridization of a town, water consumption would be down significantly.
        I don't have a problem with non fluoridated tap water.
        {Specifically, you are causing children with less than excellent dental insurance pain and physical harm}
        How the right mindwashes the left.
        I'd rather they had good nutrition. I'm sure they buy toothpaste at the 99 cent store.
        I do understand the 1%
        {"orders of magnitude" and "parts per million".}

      •  moms (0+ / 0-)

        {Specifically, you are causing children with less than excellent dental insurance pain and physical harm.}
        Before you reply I'll add
        Do you know how insulting and mentally degrading it is to assume that regular normal human being poor people don't teach their children to brush their teeth?
        I think a mom should have the right to choose toothpaste.
        The absurdity that poor people don't teach their kids to brush their teeth or at worst WE don't have a system in place to teach better habits & nutrition.
        I.e. Sesame street yourself up a few notches.

        •  specifically (0+ / 0-)

          How to break out of the supression.
          They don't buy no toothpaste.
          They wouldn't spend money from a soda for no toothpaste.
          They are human, they love their children.

          •  In conclusion (0+ / 0-)

            Reading some of the comments you have this percentage of fluoride v that percentage and the one that blows my mind is there is a poison label on fluoride toothpaste.
            How hard is this to understand? With the added unknown of chemical reactions, mistakes, etc.
            I've never heard of a kid eating a whole tube of toothpaste vs. in everything whether you want it or not.
            Oh yeah, poor people don't keep their kids out of the medicine cabinet.
            We the people, should have the option. The construct that everyone is different. Some may be sensitive. Some can not tolerate fluoride.
            It's that simple.
            P.S. I support science. I support vaccinations. I support medicine, Doctors, Hospitals, etc. There is a balance to be respected.

  •  The Portland fluoride issue has been... (6+ / 0-)

    interesting, to say the least.  The doom/gloom and conspiracy shenanigans I've been hearing around here, from just about every range of political affiliation you can imagine, has been startling.

    I think the key thing about this issue is that people really don't want it to happen, and are grasping for any justification they can find to avoid it.  The real reason, in my opinion, is that Portland has the best water in the country.  Our tap water comes from a water reservoir that has been a political talking point for decades, and the message that this water supply is extremely clean has received vote after vote after vote of support to maintain.  Having the city come along after all these years and say "We're going to intentionally add stuff to it" was guaranteed to spark outrage.

    The real sad part is the blatant ignorance of the science behind fluoridation as the only real means to argue against it.  It's really easy to use the science as a counter to any "Well, I don't want it added".  Defending keeping it out of the water is difficult without grabbing the tin foil hat and sticking your head in the cement.

    •  I support the measure, but it was probably ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... handled wrong. It was approved by the city council, so this measure is actually a repeal.

      Given how emotional this issue is it might have been better to refer it to the ballot. That would at least avoid some of the "force it down our throats" hysteria.

  •  Yessir (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I've lived in Portland over 15 years, and it's quite a place.  Sleepy but amazing.  (amazing good and bad)

  •  I wonder if 46% Portlanders think Grimm on TV (0+ / 0-)

    is a documentary or reality show? Seems like the same level of gullibility.

    I'd tip you but they cut off my tip box. The TSA would put Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad on the no-fly list.

    by OHdog on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:35:35 AM PDT

  •  Fluoride in water (5+ / 0-)

    I live in Portland and am mystified by this being a controversy. I have lived in many other places that have fluoride in their water supplies. I believe the scientific research that supports the fact that fluoride in the water helps improve dental health for those who drink it. There is a very free exchange of ideas here in Portland and always has been. That's one of the things about this city that make it a really exciting and fun place to be. Unfortunately, a lot of weird ideas also get a lot of very serious consideration. This being one of those issues. I voted FOR adding fluoride to the water and think that it should have been done a long time ago. I hope that most voters will vote in favor of it. But we shall see how the voters vote. On one hand, I think it would be great to have the health benefit of having fluoride in the water. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of voters voted to not add fluoride to the water. I hope I get my fluoride. That's all I can say.

  •  Rejecting fluoride is the point at which (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I'd decide to move out of a city because it's full of crazies.

    20, CA-18 (home), CA-13 (school)
    Socially libertarian, moderate on foreign policy, immigration, and crime, liberal on everything else.
    UC Berkeley; I think I'm in the conservative half of this city. -.4.12, -4.92

    by jncca on Tue May 14, 2013 at 10:32:00 AM PDT

  •  thank you for the Dartmouth correction (0+ / 0-)

    The email version of the Digest committed the sacrilege of calling the College Dartmouth University.

    Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. -- K.Marx A.Lincoln

    by N in Seattle on Tue May 14, 2013 at 11:04:31 AM PDT

  •  Flouridation....Wow (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    this article was a little harsh and judgmental.  DID you know there are actually people that are allergic (highly allergic) to fluoride.  You do realize that there are people who don't believe fluoridation helps - and in facts hurts even re teeth - which is the main reason it is in the water.  Try not to be so superior - it is off-putting.

    Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    by Whitewitch on Tue May 14, 2013 at 11:10:45 AM PDT

  •  Fluoride and Pseudo-Science (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RadGal70, Inkpen, rsmpdx

    I've lived in Oregon for three years now, and sometimes it feels like Bizarro-World.  Whereas in Tennessee, where I grew up, the radical Christian right leads the assault against science (evolution, climate, homosexuality, racism), here it's the left.  The transcendant hatred of science from the left wing fringe here will shock those of you in the other, slightly saner, 49 states.

    Every day, a sick kid is denied antibiotics because her mom prefers to use "natural" essential oils.  Every year, there is an outbreak of pertussis because some parent think vaccines are a "government conspiracy".  Unregulated "naturopaths" are more popular on my company's insurance plan than pediatricians.

    Tooth decay rates (and their accompanying costs) are sky-high here in Portland, and yet the measure will certainly go down to defeat.  It's the seedy underbelly of our movement, unfortunately.

    A lot of our political success among young people come from attracting moderates who believe in scienc, who have been repelled by the GOP's embrace of religion.  If we conitnue to allow this crazy fringe to develop on our own flank, might we suffer the same fate?

  •  I get why some are suspicious of flouride (0+ / 0-)

    There's a good segment of the public from all political backgrounds suspicous of anything government proposes with regard to substances/vaccinations they don't fully understand.  Past instances like the Tuskagee experiments and Gulf War syndrome make people naturally skeptical.

    •  I get it! Why should we trust the (0+ / 0-)

      Portland Water Bureau to provide clean healthy water?  After all, they're part of a gubmint.  Everybody knows you can't trust the gubmints.  (By the way, ChadmanFL, I am not implying you might be party to any of the attitudes I am spoofing here.  :-)

      Even if they never put in fluoride, who knows what might be in that suspicious, sparkly looking stuff coming out of the tap?  (Portland Water Bureau 2012 Drinking Water Quality Report.)

      Maybe Glenn Beck endorses a source of bottled water we can trust.

      "Who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?" - George H.W. Bush

      by rsmpdx on Tue May 14, 2013 at 04:33:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fluoridation (0+ / 0-)

    Amazingly some of the most wild-eyed, anti-government rhetoric in this fight has come from left-leaning individuals.

    Much of the comments I have heard come from them would be indistinguishable from tea party arguments against Obamacare 3 years ago.

    There just seems to be something about putting things in our bodies that really pushes some people's buttons and this has little to do with political leanings.

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