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One of my favorite comedy routines has always been Bill Cosby's stand-up performance "Bill Cosby: Himself".  It is the routine that spawned the Cosby Show.  One of my fovorite excerpts from it was when his wife "Holds a yard stick over her head like a samurai sword and announces the beatings will now begin by say, 'I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!'"

Well, that is how I feel right now.  I have had enough.  I am sick of the constant barage of e-mail right wing jokes, modified pictures (or pictures with blantant lies as captions), deceptively edited videos, stories that are pure fabrications being represented as truths, horror stories about Obamacare denying older people medical treatment, patriotic rants, NRA bullshit, secret Muslim bullshit, FEMA camp bullshit, lies, lies and more lies, and on and on and on.  

However, here is the real kicker though, I am not mad at the conservatives for all of this.  That would be like getting angry at a skunk for smelling badly or getting mad at snake for biting you.  You cannot be angry about that because that is what they do, it is their nature.  I am angry that we seem to be to satisfied just trying to counter all of these nonsensical claims one by one or sometimes we may brush them off by saying clever retorts like, "You must get your information from Faux news" or my personal (non) favorite, "I am not going to dignify that with a response".

The rant continues beneath the orange cloud of shit storms...

I want to know, where is the progressive equivilant of this propaganda campaign?  Where are the e-mails showing flat out, bold face lies against them?  Where are the deceptively edited videos and stories about shit that never really happened meant to enrage the general population?  Where are the media channels that spout non-stop horror stories about everything conservative along with selective "mistakes" that turn every Democrat that is caught doing something illegal magically into a republican by simply changing the letter in front of their name.  Why aren't we throwing a constant barrage of shit up against the proverbial wall hoping for that one in a dozen to stick and get someone to believe and hate them for it?  

Where is the counter offensive in this propagana war?  Do you think we are above that?  If we are above fighting that kind of war then we might as well give up now because we are through.  This isn't a gentlemen's boxing match where there are rules against low blows, head butting and biting;  this is an anything-goes-brawl and we are getting our collective asses handed to us.

Most of the people I personally know whom I admire are conservative.  These are my friends, co-workers, family, mentors, people I coach little league with, people who dedicate their lives to charity, pillars of the community, etc...  These are good, intelligent people.  They are doctors, dentists, chiropractors, lawyers, teachers, small business owners, housewives, church leaders, directors in major corporations, firemen, police officers, and on and on.  These are not stupid people and they are not mean people.  These are my friends, the people I look up to and trust.  These are people of influence...  And every day, one of them sends me an e-mail or they post on facebook or tweet something that is an absolute lie about progressives.  

It is almost always a forward of some kind but it usually comes with some personal commentary of disgust or anger or fear or something.  I have given up on correcting them because it would take me thirty hours a day to refute it all and I come off looking like I am the bully calling out a friend on his facts.  People do not really follow the snopes.com links you post to refute things anyways because it takes effort and they do not want to believe anyway.  They would rather be angry about some make believe scandal.  Right wing propaganda has not left it up to amateurs to create the bile in which they spew, they have highly talented professionals to do that for them.  Who is the progressive equivilent to Frank Luntz?  Who is the Democratic equivilent to Karl Rove?  What is the liberal organization that balances ALEC?  Who are the working man (and woman)'s benevolent billionaire backers like the Kock Brothers, Adleson's or Pete Peterson for that matter. Which mainstream media truly offsets Fox news?  What Morning Joe on MSNBC?  

I am not the person I used to be.  I am an engineer with a respectable family in a small town and I like it that way.  But I used to be a fighter.  I used to bounce and bartend in some real tough, red neck bars and I have been in hundreds of altercations.  I have been to jail for fighting, been fired for it more than once, I have had baseball bats (plural), knives and guns pulled on me, beer bottles, tables, pool balls and just about everything else thrown at me (including a full can of root beer that hit me square in the back of the head).  I have fought multiple people at the same time, I have been jumped, sucker punched, spit on, bitten, a guy tried to gouge my eye out with his thumb and I can continue going on for a long time.  I was lucky to have always came out on top in these fights though.  

I can attribute three things to why I am still alive:  For one, I was usually sober and they were usually drunk. Two I was too young and stupid to be afraid and finally, I was completely unrestrained by any sense of moral limitations.  I did whatever I had to do to win because I am certain many of them would have killed me if they had the chance.  I never had to use a weapon against any of these people but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't have if they would have ever gotten the upper hand.  I did bite, squeeze testicles, head butt, sucker punch and most of all, I used intimidation and fear tactics against them.   I never beat someone who was defenseless because I never saw the need.  Once I removed the threat (whatever that threat may have been) I moved on.  I knew people who got off on hurting people but I never did.  It was almost like a sport to me.

Progressives are fighting for everything that is good in this coutry.  We are fighting for basic human needs for the poor and the working class.  We are fighting for the sense of security for our futures.  We are fighting to re-build everything that is good about this country like education for our children, care for our elderly, reliable infastructure, a safe environment for ourselves and our future generations.  We are fighting for fairness and justice and we are fighting for the truth.  However, this is not some well regulated, olympic boxing match type of fight where there are rules and consequences for not following them.  This is a bar room brawl where anything goes.  I can promise you, in a bar fight, if your morals tell you that you cannot hit a guy with glasses, a guy with glasses is going to kick your ass.  If you refuse to fight because fighting is barbaric then you best just stay away from the kinds of places I worked at.  I have seen a girl come out of the bathroom holding her eyeball where she was attacked and kicked repeatedly in the face with cowboy boots while another girl held the door closed.  That is the kind of place these ultra-right wing has brought this propaganda war to. It is not pretty.  It is not how we would choose to be if we had a choice but alas, we do not. If we want to get our country back to something reasonable fair and just, we need to fight the way they do and quit whining that they do not fight fair.  

The opposition has already established that they will not be fighting by the same rules we have established for ourselves so quit "Wishing" they would and resolve to either fight the fight you are in or give up and hide or run away or something.  If you are in a mud slinging fight, you cannot expect to "not get dirty".  I am sick of seeing one hundred succinct, deep cutting e-mails, facebook posts and tweets spouting off about progressives wanting to destroy this country for every one, usually dull, long winded, complicated accusation of Republican wrong doing.  By complicated, I mean that if you are not familiar with politics or the definitions of words like socialism or civil rights then you probably would not understand the response.

Suggesting tea party enthusiasts, conservatives and Republicans as stupid, uneducated, racists hicks is the usual line of attack because there is an element of that in those parties but we have to go way beyond that if we are going to be successful.  People see doctors and lawyers and professionals in these groups and their senses tell them that is not true and therefor the line of reasoning becomes ignored.  We have to throw a lot more up against the wall than just that.  

Why aren't there David Vitter photoshopped pictures showing him in a diaper with a prostitute being sent around everyday?  Sure, they may be discovered as fraudulent but it will force the conversation to he really did wear diapers with prostitutes whether the pictures are real or not.  Why do we not have fake e-mail conversations between Mark Sanford and his South American girlfriend suggesting that he illegally gave foreign aid to her country from the people of South Carolina's tax dollars.  There is enough truth around that to at least force the media to cover the story and show the details of what really transpired.  Why don't we show selectively edited videos of Cheny saying he knew that Iraq didn't have WMDs but wanted to go in for the OIL (Operation Iraqi Liberation).  The rightwing has done similar things like those to progressives numerous times and yet we are above that kind of tactic.  Bullies love to fight people they know will not fight back and the 1% are kicking our asses in the propaganda war because we simply do not fight back (at least not effectively).  

I am tired of seeing the onslaught of 1% propaganda.  I am tired of progressives always being on the defensive.  By the time we try to defend ourselves from the latest accusation, they have already moved on to a dozen more accusations for us to try to defend.  I want to go on the offensive.  I want to fight back.  I am sick (and tired) of allowing them to establish the narrative.  I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!

Poll

How do you think the propaganda war in this country should be fought?

32%27 votes
67%56 votes

| 83 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (10+ / 0-)

    "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

    by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 08:36:45 AM PDT

  •  "we need to fight the way they do" (9+ / 0-)

    Sorry , I'll not be them in the hopes of beating them at their own pathetic game .
    Their failure to identify with the truth is a failure I'll not willingly join with .
    I don't want to live in a system made up of who can bullshit better .

    Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06

    by indycam on Sun May 26, 2013 at 08:53:08 AM PDT

    •  I respect your principled stand... (0+ / 0-)

      The Alamo was also a principed stand that I respect as well.

      During World War II, we launched a huge propaganda campaign against Adolf Hitler.  We lied and said he was gay, he had syphilis, said basically anything we could think of to make his people not want to folow him.  Some things were true, other things were not.  He did the same thing.  It is all part of a propaganda war and we wage it on every enemy this country has.

      Now, however, there is a propaganda war being waged against us, the average citizens of this country.  This is not some over the top conspiracy theory.  Look at the "scandals" that are front and center in the news every single week.  You almost have to admire the shear boldness of the lies if not the volume and it amazes me that these politicians have the audacity to stand behind these lies even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  They lie with absolute impunity.

      How do you suggest we fight that?  Remember, in debates and political campaigns, the common belief is that if you are defending yourself, your opponent has established the narrative and you are losing.  What do you suggest we do?  

      How do you compete with sesationalized outright lies when the lie gets front page 24/7 coverage and the truth gets a footnote on page seven?  How do you compete with a well funded, media orchestrated, political movement making one headline after another with libel, slander and defamation of character of anyone remotely progressive?  Is it really worth it to say if they are going to fight like that, then they can just have this country because I am not willing to fight like that?  Are you too proud or honorable fight back like that?

      I am tired of waiting for the rest of the country to see through their lies.  I cannot blame the people who believe these very targeted lies for being deceived any more than I can blame victim falling prey to a conman.  It is what these people do for a living and they are very good at it.  Most people work all day and their only dealings with politics is what they hear on the TV news for ten or fifteen minutes a day or maybe see in the newspaper in the break room or hear around the water cooler or at church.  They do not have time to dive deeply into it.  

      They get a constant barrage of e-mails from their friends about Obama is coming after your guns, Obama plans to put white people into concentration camps, Obama is a secret Muslim aligning with terrorists to detroy this country, Obama is setting up death panels to kill your parents.  I get e-mails like this from doctors and business owners.  These are people I have trusted my children with.  How do we fight that?

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 09:40:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We fight them by being right, and by being true to (5+ / 0-)

        our progressive principles.

        I understand your frustration that you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.  But in a war of ideas and ideals, we cannot win by beating the opposition over the head.

        Some people cannot be pushed, but they can be led.

        How?

        Suppose we start replying to those fb/email/twitter items with questions geared to make them think?

        Questions like:
        Do you really think I would vote to harm my own country?
        Why would I want the ACA if it didn't have a hope of helping?
        Why do so many R's refuse to help the most needy among us, even in their own states?

        Those are only a few of the questions we can ask of the people who know and respect us.  There are others for those people who don't know us, but need to stop and think more often.

        Is it perfect?  No.  But it's a start.

        Marti

        We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

        by The Marti on Sun May 26, 2013 at 09:54:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As I said, I have tried... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The Marti

          fighting with logic. But the post I am replying to usually appeals to a person's visceral rage and a few, even tempered lines of logic do little to persuade them.  If logic could win this war, do you think there would still be people out there who believe President obama's birth certificate was a fake?

          In a debate, when you are defending yourself, you have already lost.  It's kind of like when someone lies and then calls you a liar.  You just like childish saying "nuh-uh, you are the liar!'  They have already scored the point and moved on while you are still trying to defend the already scored basket.  Since the opponent is unrestrained by finding actual truths, you have know idea what they are going to throw at you next.  It is not a fair fight and that is precisely how they like it.

          Without a media to call them on their lies, it is just a hesaid/she said affair given equal playing time and there is really nothing we can do about it.  But we do not have to cede ground on the internet.  We can play the same game as they do and force them into defending themselves against outlandish attacks.

          Let's look at this from a personal stand point.  You do not know me except from the brief things you have read here at Dkos.  Let's say your boss and your neighbor and several of your family members knew something about me and told you what a bad guy I am.  Now, if one person said it, you might give me the benefit of the doubt but as more and more people you trust keep saying multiple things against me, you would soon develop a negative image regardless of whether you could verify any of it was true or not.  It is human nature.

          President Obama has been hammered nonstop for five years.  People cannot be expected to verify each and every one of these claims.  After awhile, people who do not pay careful attention simply give in to the constant barrage of negative slander.  Even if he was re-elceted, he has been rendered almost completely powerless (and that is assuming he wants to be more progressive).

          I do not believe that you can simply provide your side of the story over and over (even if your side is factually correct and their side is a blatant lie) and win this fight.

          "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

          by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:29:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For the most part, I agree with you. My point, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Buckeye Nut Schell, zooecium

            though, is to make it personal to the people you can reach.

            None of us can reach everyone.  None of us can reach everyone who disagrees with us.  But each of us can reach one or two or more people....who know us.

            That is my basic point.

            President Obama has been hammered for years.  Have you or I?

            If we questions our opponents on the basis of what they know about us, it can appeal both to logic and emotion.

            "You've known me well for ten (or more) years; do you really think I would back a candidate or position that would hurt my family or yours?"

            "I believe we are good people; why wouldn't we want to help those in need?  Like storm victims or people who got hosed even harder than we did when the banks broke the economy?"

            Yes, these are simple questions, but each of us can appeal to the facts and emotions of people we know well.  They, in turn, can be encouraged to do the same with others.  I firmly believe that if we treat others as though we know that we are all basically decent people who want to do good for ourselves and others...we can win.

            It's certainly worth trying, isn't it?

            We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

            by The Marti on Sun May 26, 2013 at 11:21:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I would add to The Marti side of the discussion (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Buckeye Nut Schell, The Marti

              Truth may not win the argument of the moment but it will win through the test of time.

              You receive a plethora of emails that run the gamut from subtle misquotes to outright lies. Many of us counter these with sourced corrections - to everyone listed on the email - and/or ask pointed questions of the kind that The Marti has given you in his comments.

              If our side continues to provide clear, documented, and sourced truths to counter the lies of the other side, and also asks pointed questions that clearly show the flaws in the other sides positions/arguments then we will make our converts.

              I would add that responding, to the types of emails that you have been receiving, in the way mentioned above has worked for me in one of two ways -
              Either they give me up as a lost cause, wonderful they stop sending me crap.
              Or they convert and join me in my campaign to inform senders/forwarders of the errors/BS/lies/propaganda inherent in those types of emails.

              Which ever response I get I usually end up more informed from doing the research and occasionally have the satisfaction of gaining a ally in the campaign to counter misinformation.
              -side note: I do this regardless of which side of the issue the misinformation is coming from.

              You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

              by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 01:19:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thank you for your added clarity to my points. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zooecium, Buckeye Nut Schell

                Responding to people with as much respect as we can muster, which I admit is often difficult, is an absolute 'win' for us!  

                The more reasoned we are, the more we appeal to positive emotions, the more successful we can be.

                Yes, there are those lost causes who simply refuse to treat us with any respect; we cannot reach them.  But think of how many people we can reach!

                As you say, each time we speak up we learn something, if we do it right.

                It's always better to try than to give up, isn't it?

                Marti
                p.s.  This Marti is a she.  :-)

                We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

                by The Marti on Sun May 26, 2013 at 02:03:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Aaaarrrrrrgggghhhh (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Buckeye Nut Schell, The Marti

                  My apologies for the gender mistake. I actually knew that. My two finger typing was trying so hard to catch up to my twenty finger brain - just goes to show that when you think you are thinking sometimes brain flatulence occurs.

                  he did it ---->

                  ;)

                  You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

                  by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 02:28:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  :-D No worries...I get it often enough when folks (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zooecium

                    aren't sure which I am, or when they want to spell my name with a "y" on the end.  To which I often remark, "Do I really look like Ernest Borgnine to you??"

                    They either get it right away, or wonder if I've lost my marbles.

                    Besides, I soooo get the two finger typing vs. the twenty finger brain.  I proofread like mad, and still miss some of the most egregious mistakes.  

                    My most classic error was when I tried typing, "Lord love a duck!!" in response to an IM.

                    Let's just say I didn't type "duck".

                    face/palm

                    We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

                    by The Marti on Sun May 26, 2013 at 02:48:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  ... (3+ / 0-)

                I respond to the emails with corrections, and try to avoid sounding critical or negative.  I will say something like "Isn't it nice to find out that things are not as bad as we hear they are.  I looked up what you reported and found ....." and will give a link to a reliable source.

                Sadly, what happens is that I no longer get the emails from them, but also don't get accurate ones about what is really happening.  I know that they just take me off of the list and continue to send the crazy stuff to the people who love crazy hate stories and want to believe it.  It gives them a reason to hate the people they hate--justifies it in their minds.  They really believe it and don't want to hear that it isn't true.  

                •  What you forward reflects on you. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Buckeye Nut Schell

                  I tried to let them know that what they sent reflected on them ... that people believed what was sent in part because it came from a trusted source ie. 'it came from zooecium, he is a bright guy who wouldn't BS me about something like this... no doubt he checked it out before he sent it so it's safe to send on.

                  You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

                  by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 06:01:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  "They lie with absolute impunity." (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        unfangus, lightarty

        Not so much .

        Show me any examples of major progress made in this country based on what you are suggesting ?
        End of slavery ?
        Unions ?
        Integration ?
        Votes for women ?
        Pollution control ?
        8 hour day ?

        When the opposition has nothing but BS ,
        you are winning .

        Re WW-2 ,
        we are not going to win with those tactics used in war .

        Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06

        by indycam on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:19:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  well (6+ / 0-)

    I understand the sentiment but Im more of High Roader myself.

    One of my favorite movie quotes seems to fit here though, heh.

    Jack Sparrow: Put it away, son. It's not worth you getting beat again.

    William Turner: You didn't beat me. You ignored the rules of engagement! In a fair fight, I'd kill you!

    Jack Sparrow: Well, that's not much incentive for me to fight fair then, is it?

    If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution. ~ Emma Goldman

    by Lady Libertine on Sun May 26, 2013 at 09:20:38 AM PDT

    •  My favorite line from that movie... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lady Libertine, zooecium

      came from the actual fight scene...

      William Turner: You cheated!

      Jack Sparrow: Pirate!

      My son was 7 and dressed as a pirate for halloween.  We went to a friend's house and he took the whole bowl of candy and started running off.  

      My friend yelled at him "you can't just steal all of the candy!  My son simply yelled back the same retort as Jack Sparrow; "Pirate!"

      It was classic.

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 09:57:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you can't win (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, GAS, zooecium

    on the merits of your argument, you don't belong in the courtroom. and if conservatives were winning with their propaganda, we wouldn't have Obama and a Democratic Senate.

    •  How is that working out for you? (0+ / 0-)

      president Obama cannot get anyone appointed to Judicial seats, the senate is paralyzed by the filibuster, the best things that have came from the senate like the Affordable Care Act was a republican idea, the Dodd/Frank Bill has still never been implemented even in its watered down state and departments we used to be able to rely on have been rendered almost useless by spending cuts and lack of appointed leadership.  You have the president offering up cutting Social Security, publicly announcing that banking officials are above prosecution and whistleblowers are targets but torturers are not.

      If you are happy with the way things are, by all means, feel free to continue down the same path.  

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:08:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So you think you could get (0+ / 0-)

        Judicial seats filled
        an end to senate filibusters
        the dodd/frank bill implemented
        etc
        by going down the path you suggest ?

        Please do tell me the A-B-C .

        Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06

        by indycam on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:32:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe if we didn't allow the republicans... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gfv6800

          to determine what all policy is called like:

          A.) Instead of "Death taxes", getting them called "Wealth Hoarding Taxes".

          B.)  Instead of allowing Republicans to call themselves "Pro-Life" (because everyone wants to be considered as pro-life) obscure the term by using it to define anti-death penalty and pro welfare for children born to un-wed mothers who 'Choose" to have the baby.

          C.) Instead of allowing Republicans to call gun control advocate "Anti-second amendment" Call gun control legislation "Anti-terrorist gun legislation" designed to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists.

          D.) Or how about viral e-mails that show decptively edited videos of Mitch McConnell making his anti-Obama rants and splicing them into a much worse conspiracies of treason.  He would have to claim it is not what he said but also force questions about what he actually said.  Any time he spends defending himself is time he does not have to do his actual evil deeds.

          E.) How about more in-depth knowledge about Rand paul and his Aqua-Buddha religion.  Full in-depth e-mails about how he still prays to the Aqua Buddha and smokes marijuana at work and ask him to take a urinalysis if it is not true he has nothing to worry about.

          F.) How about starting a progressive organization that sells access to liberal politicians and hands them pre-written legislative bills that benefit working class people.  

          G.)  Why don't we spend every day trying to tear down words that are seen as favorable to most people like conservative, patriot,  protection, the word "right" itself  like they have destroyed once proud words like liberal, union, worker, Civil rights, entitlement, empathy, etc...  Some words used to elicit sympathy and compassion like poor, sick, abused, old, emigrant and some used to make us mad like wealthy, greed, racism, fraud, etc...

          These types of tactics are exactly what the republicans are doing.  It is not meant to get exact policy enabled, it is meant to obstruct, obfuscate and sway public opinion enough to keep up a sense of plausible deniability.  We are constantly working from behind trying to explain and defend and show the nuances of public policy.  They are not burdoned with any of that.  If people really knew what the republicans were doing (and believed it), they would never get elected to public office again.  

          The reason nearly half of Americans voters chose Mitt Romney is because their tactics unfortunately work.

          "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

          by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 11:33:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Defining and empowering words (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Buckeye Nut Schell

            What you are saying in A, B, C, & G is just that we need to get better at the war of words. We dont have to use lies and misrepresentation to do that, we need to get the folks that thought up 'Hope' and 'Change that you can believe in' on the job. After getting the correct phrasing then it needs to be marketed in the same kind of across  the board fashion that republicans use.

            D, E & F) Selling legislation and "e-mails that show dec(e)ptively edited videos" - why not take it farther, why not promote the videos over web sites like this one and release them to friendly media channels as news. Lets destroy the credibility/reputation of this site, a news organization or two, and maybe a few lives get ruined in the propaganda equivalent of hit and run.

            -snark alert- While we are about it why don't we get some of the more fanatical among us to assassinate the purveyors of legislation we dont like in a manor similar to what was done to pro-choice doctors? -snark alert-

            I just dont believe that adapting tactics that have proven ineffective and counter productive for the other side is the way to overcome them. They are losing the popularity contest in the fav/unfav battle, they are continually attempting to rebrand bad policy and losing a little bet every time.

            They did win the war of words in 2010 and in doing so won the ability to gerrymander electoral districts to our disadvantage. We will pay for that until 2020. Until then the way to success in 2020 will be for us to be the party that consistently is on the side of the underdog, is on the high road, and that presents the issues in the most truthful manor.  

            You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

            by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 02:21:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I don't see an ABC for the items you brought up (0+ / 0-)
            Judicial seats filled
            an end to senate filibusters
            the dodd/frank bill implemented

            Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06

            by indycam on Sun May 26, 2013 at 03:35:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Well, then that makes you (0+ / 0-)

        just like them. And no better.

        Physician, heal thyself...

    •  Half the States are Right to Work, the House Is (5+ / 0-)

      nearly unwinnable for Democrats, the Supreme Court has never ruled in favor of individuals against corporations since the present majority was seated.

      There's serious risk of losing the Democratic Senate.

      What progressives need to understand is that there IS no argument, just because people take turns saying things doesn't make it an argument or reasoning in any way.

      I side with you against the diarist on the matter of actually lying, because there is so much popular support for progressive goals when the people are carefully polled. But we do need to mostly drop the argumentation and start doing tight strongly motivational messaging. We have the truth and the people want it if we can get it out there in ways that the public square will disseminate and that will motivate the people.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:23:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You're Half Right: We Need to Fight Hard and With (5+ / 0-)

    emotion, but we don't need to lie.

    The reason we don't need to lie is that most of the people support most of our policies and goals for the condition of the people. The other side needs to lie because most people oppose the goals of the rightwing and the conditions they seek to impose on the people.

    99% of our problem is that we're putting out very little message of any kind, and what we are doing as you rightly observe is often in a very dispassionate way. Especially our party's top leadership.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:19:23 AM PDT

    •  I agree with you that we have truth on our side... (0+ / 0-)

      but is that enough?

      I am not a liar and I do not seriously want to start lying but I do not know what else could be effective against these kinds of lies we are facing.

      James O'keefe deceptively edits videos that make people appear guilty of something, gets caught in the lie and yet the media hounds his targets rather than him.  The Republican presidential candidate uses deceptively edited video of President Obama twisting something he said into the opposite meaning and rather than the media crucifying him for it, they made it into their national campaign slogan.

      I get e-mails from people saying that President Obama is buying up all the ammunition in the country in preperation to take everyone's guns. Around here, it is common knowledge that Obama is destroying coal jobs even though I show them the fracking is what is actually dropping the demand for coal, they refuse to believe it.  They have seen hundreds of e-mails saying that Obama is destroying coal so my little comment with some fancy links is not going to change their minds.  It is their livlihood after all.  

      These are the types of things I see daily.  I woke up this morning to several in my in-box and several more on facebook and I just needed to go off and rant a little bit.

      That doesn't change the fact that I do not understand why we allow the conservatives to constantly set the narrative, constantly keep us on our heels and constantly make us spend our time refuting their allegations.  If their is not going to be any repercussions for lying and fighting dirty then we should at least attempt to fight back.  

      I know it is not the high road but I cannot help but want them to have a taste of their own medicine.

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:52:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Buckeye Nut Schell

        If the people you are trying to talk to are going to believe unsourced information that originated from an organization/person that is not accountable for any information that they provide then you are fighting an unwinnable battle and lying to them isn't going to any good anyway.

        As The Marti said earlier in the comment section: (paraphrasing here) if you present the information in a way that not only presents the information in a logical, sourced manor but also personalizes it you should be able to make inroads. If, however, you have weakened your credibility in the past by using misinformation or lying you will find that getting them to believe you will be a much more difficult task.

        You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

        by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 03:12:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think I may have misrepresented my position... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zooecium

          I do not want to lie...  I want to fight!

          I was merely stating that they lie and cheat and if you are going to fight liars and cheaters and you are out-resourced by the media and other enablers of this tactic then, we have to think outside the box.

          Fighting fire with fire is the most obvious method but not the only one.  I am just sick of all the propaganda that I see daily and I want to fight back.  

          Why are we still talking about Benghazi?  Why are we still talking about President Obama's birthplace or his religion?  Why do we have to continually explain that the president does not really want to take your guns, he really isn't planning to put all white people into concentration camps and he never went on an apology tour around the world apologizing to Muslims for our country's wicked ways?

          How many times can I say that none of this is true?  How many times can I post links to the rebuttals?  How many times do I have to hear about Fast and Furious?  The new AP scandal, the IRS scandal, Michelle and barack's terrorist fist bump?

          We waste time arguing about these ridiculous things while the Republicans simply reload with another "Worse than Watergate" scandal every three days.  I remember when the Dixie Chicks said they were ashamed george Bush was from Texas, their careers were ruined because they were unamerican.

          This country has real issues.  Climate change is going to kill and or displace millions of people, real people are dying without basic health care in this country, bankers are stealing our money and we are told there is nothing the governent can do about it.  These are real issues.  What do we find ourselves talking about?  Why President Obama should not be impeached for not supplying damaging enough information about Benghazi.

          I am angry.  Do I think we should all of a sudden start lying?  Probably not.  Do I think continuing to do what we have been doing in this area is the right thing to do?  Absolutely not.  I may not know what the right thing to do is but I sure know what it ain't.

          While I appreciate you and The Marti's integrity and admire your persuit of addressing each one of these right wing lies, I do not have faith that it is enough on the larger scope of things.

          I do not know how to fight back on this.  Hopefully this diary, in some small way, stirs the pot a little bit and maybe a better solution will come from it.  Until then, I will keep on keeping on and try to address each one of these when I can. It is just overwhelming and in my eyes, ineffective.  

          "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

          by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 03:43:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Keep on keeping on - (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Buckeye Nut Schell

            from the response to this diary you can tell there are others that feel similarly. You might even get the impression that we are mostly doing the same things you are. Because it is all email you dont get to see all of the results of your responses engender.

            Every cause worth fighting for from civil rights to LGBT has had what appeared to be insurmountable obstacles placed in their path and yet -at least on paper- those particular cause have been advanced without using the misinformation/intimidation/tactics of their oppressors.

            rec/tip for the excellent discussion and the clarification on misleading/lying. thanks for a great string!
             

            You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

            by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 04:35:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  You started an important conversation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buckeye Nut Schell, annominous

    I tipped and reccd it because of that
    Reflection, contemplation, and dialogue are an important thing -

    Where is the counter offensive in this propaganda war?
    We don't have a structured system in place to battle the propaganda.  We just don't.  We don't have things like the Heartland, The CATO, and the other right wing stink tanks and their talking heads.
    However, this is not some well regulated, olympic boxing match type of fight where there are rules and consequences for not following them.

    No - it's not, and tomorrow should be a reminder to everyone that it historically has not been.

    I don't believe that always taking the "high road" is the winning position.  Sometimes, every once in awhile - you have to get in the mud and wrestle with the best of them and until we hit that point - we will just be the "nice guys".

    If we never get to that point - I believe that we will lose the match - cause, as the saying goes,  nice guys finish last.

    •  Thank you... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MNDem999

      I believe you got what I was trying to say exactly.

      It appears that most people have taken this diary as saying that we need to start lying.  Even though I did kind of say that, I really was simply ranting and wanting to start a conversation.

      I am frustrated that we are not fighting back.  I am sick of getting all of these e-mails and posts.  If these were just some casual acquaintences that I barely knew, I would ignore it or tell them they are idiots.  

      However, these are prominent people whom I care deeply about.  These are people I respect on most issues.  I realized that if they are passing this crap around, then we really have a problem because if I didn't know for a fact this stuff was lies, I would probably relent and fall in line right behind them.  I trust these people as I know most others do as well.

      Nobody forwards factual retorts that build logical arguments.  They just do not do it.  They forward things that make them laugh or cry or makes them afraid or mad.  They forward things that are scandalous.  I seen one this morning about a patriotic song that congress and President Obama was supposedly blocking off the air because it talked about God and the love of this country.  It was ridiculous but you should have seen how many likes it got and the vile things that were said about Obama (just from the local post.  I can only imagine what it is throughout the country).  People believe this nonsense and they are infuriated by it.

      I do not want to resort to their tactics but we have to do something.  We are losing this propaganda war in a bad way.  I think this is one of the primary reasons that people are so divided in this country.  If you say you are liberal, they automatically think you want to kill babies, give their paychecks to lazy minorities and take their guns.  If only wish I was exaggerating.

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 12:08:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I do appreciate your point. (3+ / 0-)

    I don't want the high road, but I think we're too smart for the low road.   I think we can fight fire with fire and elevate it.   That's my vote.  

    What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Elizabeth Warren 2016

    by dkmich on Sun May 26, 2013 at 12:12:48 PM PDT

    •  Low Road and High Road to me (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buckeye Nut Schell, dkmich

      are the absolutes - the ends of the continuum.  We shouldn't  focus solely on them as the only alternatives or need to stay in either place for the long-term.  Moving how your message is delivered, across the continuum - every once in awhile is a good thing - it wakes people up.  You can do that without resorting to deceit or fear mongering - like the other side likes to use.

      Just like any introvert will tell you - once in awhile (for some once every ten years) they have choose to be an extrovert (even if it's for only 2 minutes hailing a cab)  - cause life doesn't allow us to live solely on the ends of the continuum.

      I'd just like to see some movement along the continuum - using the full range of resources that are available to us for our messaging.  I'd like to see some balance.

      I appreciate your comment it - it made me stop and think.  Thank you.

  •  First off : the playing field is deeply slanted. (3+ / 0-)

    Thanks to one of their earlier pre-emptive lies about the "liberal media" the US Right Wing has been able to almost complete its domination of traditional media by financial acquisition without serious challenge. Most talk radio is Right Wing, Faux News is a club to batter the less fully subservient media into at least mentioning the latest lies, and they have an energetic horde of Trolls to forward internet emails.

    The corporate media is already corporate and Right Wing themselves, and they are terrified of being assaulted as too "liberal", so they will bend over backwards to avoid this.

    We are engaged in a shouting match and the other side has hugely better megaphones, plus a nexus of organized and lavishly funded liars.

    So far our one saving grace has been honesty and being right. Talking reason in a softer voice, as the mad lies of the Right Wing echo from their captive and frightened media.

    I do 100% agree we need to fight back harder, but going over the line into deceit is both wrong and wasteful.

    I suggest the simple theme: the Republicans will sacrifice the good of the USA for narrow partisan benefits and lie to reach their selfish goals ... and then let us repeat this and keep showing the myriad ways that they do.

    If the average citizen is convinced that anything from the GOP is likely to be a self-serving lie, then any future smear is DOA.

    •  I agree with your message... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MNDem999

      I just am not sure about its ability to penetrate the walls of denial built up with a thousand layers of lies.

      I have tried to start a conversation that will create some thought about how we fight this propaganda war.

      I do not think anyone disagrees that we are in a propaganda war and I think everyone agrees we are losing it.  I want to do something different.  I want to chnage our tactics.  If we maintain our refusal to lie like they do, at least we have to be more passionate about fighting back with every truth we can get our hands on.  We need to stand behind them too and not cower every time something is challenged (i.e. Dan Rather).

      Can you imagine network news anchors getting fired over falsely promoting lies about President Obama?  There wouldn't be one left.

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 01:20:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I like your thinking. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buckeye Nut Schell

    I had this response to a comment I wrote.
    (sorry if it's confusing.  Lately I can't seem to use Chrome>

    POST A COMMENT | 16 COMMENTS | PERMALINK
     

    I don't have a link. (1+ / 0-)
    I just re-wrote the original comment.  Make the R's prove that  significantly more than one third of the groups checked were conservative groups.

    Just because they say it, doesn't mean it's true, or proveable.

    Time is a long river.

    by phonegery on Tue May 21, 2013 at 10:09:35 AM PDT

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]

    Back at cha? (2+ / 0-)
    Just because they say it, doesn't mean it's true, or proveable.
    And, yeah, I knew that you were repeating from the diary; I decided that it was a good spot to ask my question.
    Otherwise, it's a great talking point; I'm just one that likes to have some reasonable backup.

    Notice: This Comment © 2013 ROGNM

    by ROGNM on Tue May 21, 2013 at 10:44:27 AM PDT

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]
    Nah. At this point, I think it's better not to (0+ / 0-)
    start to

     argue  with

    them.  Just keep saying the same thing.
    A modicom of truth should prevail.

    Time is a long river.

    by phonegery on Tue May 21, 2013 at 04:36:57 PM PDT

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]

    Time is a long river.

    by phonegery on Sun May 26, 2013 at 12:53:20 PM PDT

  •  I have wanted to write this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buckeye Nut Schell

    same diary but never got around to it !!The left needs to heed a little advice from recovering republicans like us and learn that in a battle of ideas sometimes you must "go there"...great diary

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