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electronic privacy is over. If it ever existed.
Look if you ever send an email, use a credit card, make a phone call, use Facebook, you are generating digital breadcrumbs.
And the world is going to scoop these breadcrumbs up.
That means the US government, credit card companies, internet companies, and whoever else is out there.

Didn't we know that already? Does anyone really have any expectation of privacy these days?
Everytime you click "send" you have to be aware that you are sending bits out into the world and someone can read them.
It's just the nature of the world and technology. You can make laws and argue it in court, but it's just kind of inevitable that your data will be used in ways that you did not understand or authorize.

If you care that much, get some advanced encryption software for your phone and email.
But for me, I send emails about the weather, about a basketball game, whatever. I'm aware that probably people can access it, but I don't think it's affected me so far.

Poll

are you surprised that the government may be monitoring your phone and email

10%7 votes
89%58 votes

| 65 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (10+ / 1-)

    Obama 2012...going to win it with our support!!!

    by mattinjersey on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:17:43 PM PDT

  •  I think everyone did know, doesn't mean we (6+ / 0-)

    like it, but i do agree i'm more 'afraid' of corporations with my stuff then i am the feds.

  •  It's Not About Whether It Affects Any of Us. (14+ / 0-)

    It's about whether it affects

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Which systems far more primitive, did.

    No I'm not surprised, unlike most Americans and virtually all Democrats I read the news a decade ago and knew what was being implemented.

    Well then there was also that time in spring 1970 a week before anyone would hear of "Kent State" when I watched government operatives who had learned of a pending student protest action turn a party school protest into a riot of 20,000.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:26:31 PM PDT

  •  Yeah. Let's just go to sleep. (22+ / 0-)




    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
    ~ Jerry Garcia

    by DeadHead on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:30:15 PM PDT

  •  yes (9+ / 0-)

    it's obvious. and yes, it obvious that kafka and dostoyevsky and bentham and burgess were prescient.

    With failing eyes K. could still see the two of them immediately before him. "Like a dog!" he said; it was as if the shame of it must outlive him.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 09:40:20 PM PDT

    •  My conservative customer yesterday made that (6+ / 0-)

      same point. The Constitution was written in such a time that they could not know what technology was to come. But it still all applies. I am not buying into the "it's just the way it is nowdays" argument. The government sucking up vast information about everything we do as citizens is just plain wrong. As gooserock noted above - I saw this coming years ago also. I joked with my husband 15 or so years ago about walking into a grocery store and the checkout clerk might say - you have reached your quote of red meat this month - may I suggest the fish? We are there. The technology is there now so that you could conceivably click on an icon with my name and know where I have been, what I have bought, who I have talked to. It's insane. It's one thing when I can't use my Amex card to fill my car on a trip to LA because I never go to LA! Except for when MIL was in the hospital. THAT was a pain in the ass! But I do not think some jackwad at NSA needs to know everything I do and say and spend my money on. I'm probably already a target as I attended an Occupy Sacramento march. My hubbie was laughing at this last night until I reminded him that I had HIS cell phone at the time! ;)

      I guess we'll both be marked as interesting folks to follow when we head to San Jose on 6/19! Hubbie is only spending Wednesday with me as he has to return home to run the business. I'll swap cell phones with him without him knowing so that all my liberal subversiveness for the rest of NN13 will be on his azz! LOL!!!

      if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

      by mrsgoo on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 10:07:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Forgive me, but I was a Russian major and (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bobswern, WakeUpNeo

      a Dostoevsky scholar, and it's spelled Dostoevsky.

      Yes, it's pronounced with the "y" but not spelled that way in English.

  •  It's the reason why my stepfather refuses (14+ / 0-)

    to get a cell phone or the internet.

    The courts have held since at least the Clinton adm that one cannot have a reasonable expectation of privacy if they're using cell phones or the internet.

    The fact is, I don't like it.  But instead of screaming about something that's been legally going on for decades with the approval of Congress and the courts, I'd rather concentrate my efforts in getting the laws changed so that they can't do this anymore.

    btw, restrictions should apply to both government and commercial as far as I'm concerned.

  •  they need to learn to adapt instead of cower (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FG, WakeUpNeo, Aspe4

    they have no idea how much they sound exactly like the religious right

    they are presented with a new challenge and they just want to get up on a soap box and rant about how it's not the way things are supposed to be

    and the world moves on without them

    •  although, in full discolusure (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WakeUpNeo

      my first cell was an iphone3 and i don't text or tweet

      facebook is enough for me

      and i don't have any friends that i am not friends with or closely related to

      also, i don't do things that i am going to regret later

      except maybe play devil's advocate on dkos without giving enough of a hint that that is what i am doing

  •  Let me just say: bullshit! (9+ / 0-)

    The 4th Amendment is still binding on all parts of the federal government.

    We're so close to a military dictatorship that I have moments of despair.

    But it's still possible that a scandal or two might push the courts into a confrontation where the executive branch would blink.

    Oh, and fuck the legislative branch very much.

  •  I'm not an American, and I strongly fucking... (4+ / 0-)

    object to even the IDEA of the NSA sucking up all my internet use.

    Big wave to the boys and girls at the NSA!!  nnIIn

    'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

    by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 10:59:14 PM PDT

  •  heck, every time you log on at a "hotspot", (5+ / 0-)

    someone at the next table can be stealing your bank password, records, etc.

    data is not secure unless you are using an encrypted software system - and even then, as we used to say when i worked for wang, the ONLY way to ensure your data can't be stolen is to burn the disks.

    "wiping' a disk by overwriting it with x/o's even ten to twenty times is still not enough to remove the data - so, when we went electronic, we became visible.'

    i can't help laughing at all this "outrage" and wondering at the same time how many of those same people hit the "like" button on facebook.

    this whole outrage du jour is a friggin' joke!  anyone with a bit of computer knowledge can know everything about anyone from birth to death in minutes.

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:13:57 PM PDT

    •  I have a very desirable location. However google (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WakeUpNeo, edrie

      gets all mixed up and goes to a very poor section of town when it looks for my address. Ha ha. The kind with tarp for roofs and plenty of non-running car's parked about.

      I still get a kick of my former classmates googling my address when I registered for the class reunion. I know they did.

      give the NRA the Royal Flush join Stop The NRA

      by 88kathy on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:16:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You see no potential for abuse when the (2+ / 0-)

      government knows everything about everyone, then?

      And no, just because they "already know a lot" doesn't mean overreach is acceptable.

      Just because it isn't misused now doesn't mean it won't ever be. This is about defining basic privacy rights in the digital age.

      It needs to be addressed as much now as it did when it first started happening. Even more so, nowadays, actually.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:39:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is not about... (5+ / 0-)

    ...an expectation of privacy.

    It is about the expectation that the government abide by this:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    The government has successfully argued that we may not bring suit against it for suspicions of violations of our rights.

    The publication of a secret warrant so broad that it demands every piece of metadata from every call from every phone provided by Verizon, coupled with several reports that this document is one of many that demand similar data from every other carrier, is the significant change that happened this week.

    There is no probable cause for looking at everyone's phone data. The only reason this stands is that there has, until now, been no plaintiff correctly situated to challenge it.

    This is not the time to yawn.

    More information on my views on this and other topics available 24/7 at the NSA.

    by PBCliberal on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:55:08 PM PDT

    •  See Smith v Maryland. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sybil Liberty, Gary Norton

      You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

      by sewaneepat on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 04:30:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You can't say it enough:-) (0+ / 0-)

        Further, affiant sayeth not.

        by Gary Norton on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 07:59:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So now we must determine (0+ / 0-)

        ...if a method designed to record the interruption of B+ on the phone circuit (which was the signalling method to allow rotary dialing...which is what the pen registers read) is comparable to the metadata in this order.

        Keeping the warrants secret and rejecting suits claiming you can't sue over suspicions has prevented a determination of that question.

        We can move forward now.

        More information on my views on this and other topics available 24/7 at the NSA.

        by PBCliberal on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 09:00:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not sure that the technology makes (0+ / 0-)

          a difference in that the court specifically said that phone numbers one dials are not protected since they are voluntarily conveyed to a third party. Whether the number is dialed or punched and exactly how the phone company captures that information would seem to me to be irrelevant.

          I am not a lawyer but I can read plain English and I have read the decision as well as the two dissents and whether I like it or not, that seems to be the law of the land. Therefore, it would seem more practical to me - if one opposes this - to focus on changing the law rather than being outraged that the President uses legal means to accomplish something.

          As I understand the situation, what is being done is a computer search to see which phone numbers are calling known terrorist numbers. This seems to me to be much more reasonable than what Bush did at first - the spider thing where people who call people who call people who call people ... who call a suspected number (or who call people in certain countries)  are being tapped.

          You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

          by sewaneepat on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 05:10:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I recently looked for a couple of people (10+ / 0-)

    on Google.  Next thing I knew, LinkedIn was tossing me "people you might know" with their names.

    There's no fucking privacy.  Not that I'm happy the NSA is sucking up everything.  Fuck 'em.

    But if they're snagging millions (hundreds of millions?  billions?) of calls, e-mails, posts, etc. a day, there's no one going through all that data.  It's just sitting in files somewhere unless someone gets flagged.

    "Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." -- Willie Stargell

    by Yasuragi on Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 11:58:21 PM PDT

    •  Computers are reading and listening to all that (0+ / 0-)

      data (phone calls, emails, texts...) and spitting out anything that gets red flagged for keywords or patterns.

      It's all being pre-processed by non-humans. That's why Obama can get away with saying no one is listening to your phone calls.

      No longer Hoping for Change. Now Praying for a Miracle.

      by CitizenOfEarth on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 05:15:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Honest question (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mwm341, gramofsam1, mattinjersey

    I hope it's honest, anyway:  How do people think this mining of phone metadata is different from street cams, like those that provided the stills of the Boston Marathon bombers?  

    Those cams are always on, indiscriminately capturing what happens in front of them.  If you set foot in a city with these sorts of cams, you also set aside any expectation of "visual privacy"  when you're outside.

    And I suppose in theory this information could be used to persecute or blackmail someone for doing something legal -- like a closeted politician caught on camera kissing someone of the same gender.  But the purpose of those cameras is to capture any illegal activity.  

    Is that sort of blanket visual record different in kind from the gathering of phone metadata?  Is it bad but not as bad?  Worse?

    A 47% return on investment--that's pretty doggoned good!

    by deminva on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:14:55 AM PDT

  •  Send your diary to the folks in OWS (2+ / 0-)

    Recall at the recent OWS day, we learned that OWS protesters were being investigated as terrorists.

    Here is the govt that is blasting Pepper Spray into the faces of Peaceful demonstators to suppress Free Speech.

    Now they can classify anyone they don't like as a Terrorist and pull their Digitial DNA from the NSA's Fascist database.

    Please don't include me in your insane campaign, "I'll Give UP my 4th Amendment rights! Just KEEP ME SAFE!! PLEASE GAWD, Just KEEP ME SAFE!!  "

    No longer Hoping for Change. Now Praying for a Miracle.

    by CitizenOfEarth on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 05:11:43 AM PDT

  •  the hysteria, coming from a (3+ / 0-)

    non-conspiracy-theory population such as ours, is most ridiculous.

    And the press, of course, feeds on it, and we feed on the press, and all sense is completely lost.

    All of a sudden, the NSA is watching us taking showers.

    C'mon people, get a grip.


    "So I'm at the wailing wall, standing there like a moron, with my harpoon." - Emo Philips

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 05:26:05 AM PDT

  •  Political activity of young people cut off (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    One Pissed Off Liberal, Anne Elk

    There is a reason we have the fourth amendment.

    Young people who protested in OWS were branded terrorists by our government.

    Now they know that there is no privacy.

    What kind of political activity is possible in a totalitarian state?

    Wait, that is too strong for the American people who are proud of their ignorance.

    Lets get a scholar, the dean of American political philosophers, Sheldon Wolin (political philosophy, not political science) to tell us about it in a book a few years ago that predicted what would happen. Way back then, a book published before the 2008 elections, one had to be careful to use words that would not upset "good and true Americans"

    From the book information posted on amazon.com

    Democracy is struggling in America--by now this statement is almost cliché. But what if the country is no longer a democracy at all? In Democracy Incorporated, Sheldon Wolin considers the unthinkable: has America unwittingly morphed into a new and strange kind of political hybrid, one where economic and state powers are conjoined and virtually unbridled? Can the nation check its descent into what the author terms "inverted totalitarianism"?
    Wolin portrays a country where citizens are politically uninterested and submissive--and where elites are eager to keep them that way. At best the nation has become a "managed democracy" where the public is shepherded, not sovereign. At worst it is a place where corporate power no longer answers to state controls. Wolin makes clear that today's America is in no way morally or politically comparable to totalitarian states like Nazi Germany, yet he warns that unchecked economic power risks verging on total power and has its own unnerving pathologies. Wolin examines the myths and mythmaking that justify today's politics, the quest for an ever-expanding economy, and the perverse attractions of an endless war on terror. He argues passionately that democracy's best hope lies in citizens themselves learning anew to exercise power at the local level.
    Democracy Incorporated is one of the most worrying diagnoses of America's political ills to emerge in decades. It is sure to be a lightning rod for political debate for years to come.
    In a new preface, Wolin describes how the Obama administration, despite promises of change, has left the underlying dynamics of managed democracy intact.
    book title is:

    Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism

    in normal totalitarianism institutions are controlled by the state, e.g., all media is state run as it was in the former Soviet Union. In a managed democracy, there is no need to control all the media, they know what to do to keep the game going and it fools more people because they think that they can trust the media.

    We not face a crisis of legitimacy of our government.

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