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Hi so I was asked to write a diary about something specific and I am going to use that as an oppurtunity to not only do that but say my piece. After that I think I am done with current events here for now. I will respond in diary but that's it.

What follows is just me no one else and my own last attempt to try and bring some actual knowledge to the discussion and less hyperbole and fear.

I have never liked the PATRIOT act, it was something concieved right after the worst terrorist attack on US soil ever. And like just about anytime you threaten people we, the citizens and our legislators, were willing at the time to do just about anything to be safe. As such the PATRIOT act was passed. Since then it has probably been one of the most widely cited and widely controversial acts of Congress. It really needs to be repealed and not because I disagree with parts of how it has been used. It needs to be repealed because it is too wide ranging and just plain too ambigious.

That said there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about PRISM and how the internet works. I'd lay down good money that there is simply no technological way the government can even begin to monitor everything that goes on in the internet. This is the last estimate I could find of Internet traffic. The number I want to draw your attention to is the US backbone which basically is the traffic that passes though the US which includes local traffic. The lowest estimate for 2011 is 3,400,000 terabytes or about 113,333 terabytes a day. Simply storing 113,333 terabytes a day would be difficult enough but to process it in a timely manner? Good luck with that and remember that that is a 2 year old estimate and internet traffic has at the very least been expotential if not more explosive in growth.

And to those that want to contest this I want to ask a simple question, if it is possible to completely monitor the internet then why do nations like China censor the internet rather then monitoring it?

Further the internet as a network of networks works as a distrubited network, when you get on a browser and type in a request that information is reduced to packets which are then routed though the networks and reassembled on the other side. About the simplest analogy I can offer is that unlike traditional mail where I would send this as one letter imagine that said letter is cut up and mailed in seperate pieces. I don't really want to get into the why, somewhat because it's complicated and somewhat because there are people that are much better at explaining it.

Thus when you talk about sitting at a node what you are doing is simply watching packets and looking for the individual packets you want. And that in my understanding is what has been 'revealed' but that is not the same thing as actually looking at the payload (the actual information in the packet) and frankly without all the packets I am not even sure looking at the pay load would be useful. It would be like trying to read this by only looking at my second paragraph (or less).

And it also because of that difficultly that you have to sit at multiple nodes to read communications. This isn't like the traditional mail where you only need one point of interception you need dozens if not hundreds.

Which is what leads us to PRISM and the need to look at numerous streams just to find the packets you need.

I want to close with this, I am not saying this is perfect or that the goverment should get a blank check. We need a serious discussion on digital rights because there is a lot right now that is at best gray. Did you know that techinically most of the music and books you download electronically you don't actually own? Or that there are no rules for terms of service?

There is a lot we need to discuss but we also need to make sure we understand what is going on so that we can discuss it

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (6+ / 0-)

    I will be around for those that actually want to talk about the techinical aspect of this or have questions. I am not the most knowledgable about the internet but I know a bit.

    After that I really don't know right now, I was finally almost done with Phosphous diary but right now I am sick of the same 5-10 people harassing me so I just really don't know right now.

    In the time that I have been given,
    I am what I am

    by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 04:57:15 PM PDT

  •  You're absolutely right (5+ / 0-)

    We DO need to understand what's going on.

    How do you propose we gain this better understanding when we can't even get straight answers from the only people who have those answers?

    Just because shit is the way it is doesn't make it acceptable.




    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
    ~ Jerry Garcia

    by DeadHead on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 05:11:24 PM PDT

  •  I've been scared to ask this question (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duhban, gooderservice, kj in missouri

    because I'm unsure of the reaction, but also, I'm not really sure how to ask it.
    Here goes anyways-

    What exactly are people so afraid of?
    Do people really believe that the government is gathering all this information to somehow use it against us?
    I know the right-wing fears FEMA camps for something or other and they fear Obama taking their guns.
    I think there are some right-wingers that fear persecution of white Christians but that might be related to the FEMA camps.

    Do you know what it is that is provoking such fear on the left?

    I am asking this in all sincerity.
    Thank you.

    •  As an activist I'm afraid of the information (8+ / 0-)

      being used similar information has been used in the past: To disrupt the organizations of people who are trying to change the country and make it a better place. We've seen information like this used time and time again to attack all different groups, from unions to the Black Panther Party.

      What's provoking fear on the left is that we've seen what happens when the FBI targets activists. Sure, I'm not really worried about the Obama administration going after me personally. But what happens when a Republican gets back in the presidency and has all this info to play with? Or even a regressive Democrat?

      And that isn't even bringing up the fact that corporations may or may not currently have access to some or all of this data, and if they don't now they may well in the future. We've privatized our intelligence services and I don't trust a private company at all.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 05:57:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Before the RNC a Few Years Ago Some People (7+ / 0-)

      were picked up in their houses, arrested and detained, so they could not go out and protest the event as they had been planning.

      Maybe that sort of thing.

      Excess or insufficiently checked power has a way of eventually falling into the hands of those with ill intentions. We haven't been pre-emptively arresting potential protesters lately but the kinds of leaders who've done it in the past are numerous in government.

      The American people as a whole have been injured by this government for the last 40 years under both parties. It doesn't deserve the benefit of doubt.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 06:02:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ummm, of course. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arizonablue, wayoutinthestix
      Do people really believe that the government is gathering all this information to somehow use it against us?
      Do you have any friends or family from another country that the U.S. doesn't "approve of?"  Do you make telephone calls to friends there?

      Did you do anything wrong?  No.  Can you afford tens of thousands of dollars to prove that you didn't do anything wrong?

      And if you're not afraid of the government collecting information on us in this form, how about at every mortgage settlement, we provide a master key to the government so they can come and go as they please in our homes, or at the signing of rental contracts, the government is entitled to a master key to enter our homes at will?

      Hyperbole?  Is it?

      Where do you draw the line?  

      Are you aware that the government was following the peaceful Quakers?  Is that okay with you?

      At least can't we agree that we as Americans need to know how the government is intruding into our lives, and if we're against that, at least have a way to fight it in court?

      •  I don't understand much of it (4+ / 0-)

        I really don't and thank you for trying to explain it.

        I think a lot of people don't understand what it means or could mean, don't you think?
        I don't necessarily mean people on DKos, but I mean Americans in general don't seem to understand the possible ramifications.

        All we need is LOVE!

        by arizonablue on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 06:14:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, yes, if I didn't make that point, I should (5+ / 0-)

          have.  Of course we're going to have secret NSA and CIA endeavors.  We don't need to know the dates and coordinates.  They do their job and we do ours.

          HOWEVER,  The WHOLE collection of metadata from all Americans is not right, it's not what the best generation fought and died for.

          It's not what the Constitution calls for no matter how many lawyers write memos and say it's okay.

          And yes, Congress passed the Patriot Act, but it's too secret.  Even all of Congress doesn't understand what exactly the PA entitles the NSA, CIA, DOJ, and FBI to do "in our name."

          If Congress doesn't know what's going on, I agree, the American public sure as heck doesn't understand what's going on.  

          And to directly answer your previous question:

          "What exactly are people so afraid of?"

          I wouldn't characterize it as fear, I would characterize it as in The People want and need to know what is going on, generally, and if there is meaningful oversight.  

          But yes, there is fear.  Who's next?  Who did you call?  

          The fear is not knowing.

          If a citizen doesn't know what's going on, they certainly can't contact their representatives to advocate for or against something.  And darn sure if their representatives don't know what's going on, they're incapable of having a stance on it.  

    •  first of all (7+ / 0-)

      obama won't be president forever. we will have another gop president, at some point. but it's not partisan. read the quotes in my diary.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 06:11:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think it's a good question. (5+ / 0-)

      I assume you've heard of Joe McCarthy and McCarthyism.

      If not, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      When the government decides to go after someone, it seems that person is guilty until they can prove themseles innocent...if that's possible when the charges against them  were sourced from secret documents that the defendent has no access no.

      My issue is that allowing the government essentially unfettered abiility to pry into the people's lives can and usually does lead to abuses. History is replete with such.

      The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis. - Dante Alighieri

      by Persiflage on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 06:31:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  while this may surprise some here (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arizonablue, kj in missouri, AoT

      I'm acrtually very against indiscriminate data mining. I don't feell that anyone not even the government (and especially the corporations) should have the right to pry into my life.

      I actually did an online setup for my insurance company and to 'verify my identity' they had me answer some personal questions. What they came up with in a matter of minutes was incredibly personal and honestly disturbed me to an extent. Maybe that's the new reality but I am not completely happy if it is.

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:29:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Someone commented in another diary (4+ / 0-)

        that it's easy to get caught up in the pie fights or meta and that is distracting from the issues.

        I'm guilty of that - I don't partake in the fights, but I do read the comments and it's easy to get caught up in the drama.

        I do really appreciate people answering my question and do have a much better understanding now.

        Thank you.

        All we need is LOVE!

        by arizonablue on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:35:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  arizonablue (4+ / 0-)

      in a nutshell:

      knowledge is power
      power corrupts
      absolute power corrupts absolutely

      there are almost as many aspects of this are there are data bits already stored (that's probably hyperbole), so parsing these strings will take very fine minds working through the courts and through Congress.   Kyril has had a couple of diaries on grassroots efforts, i'll link to them if you're interested.

      this genie, The Patriot Act, is not going back in the bottle without massive pushback.  corporations have access to our metadata and as we saw with Narwhal, PBO's campaign database, there aren't even laws on the books to deal with the kind of information that's already out there.  how that information is compiled and used is a mystery to most of us.

      i am one who fought against the Patriot Act initially and then gave up.  (Shock Doctrine effect)  it seemed too overwhelming and it was.  i'm very glad for the first time in a long time this is back in the spotlight.  but i have no idea how long it will last or if there will be anymore pushback than there was with GWB.

      we have to get our acts together and work together.
      brb with links to Kyril's diaries.

      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

      by kj in missouri on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:32:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for the links (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kj in missouri

        And the reply.

        All we need is LOVE!

        by arizonablue on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:48:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  in all honesty (4+ / 0-)

          i have no idea how this will end.   i don't want to say i have little hope, but it's a BFD and we had a better chance before the law passed and became everyday working tools of departments all across the United States.

          the people  involved have no idea how it (the data) all flows together, there are buckets of systems to route the data here or there or combine it this way or that way, not to mention how many ways there are of gathering the information and storing it.  it is overwhelming.   no one person can see it or grasp it in full.

          our best bet is the courts and Congress.   that's all i know.  and with the horse this long out of the barn, i don't know that i will ever trust that it's been brought home and tamed.

          and the NRA is worried about background checks.  i mean, in comparison, that's almost funny and quaint.  background checks.

          Bush/Cheney, real pieces of work.   and we couldn't stop them.   they both... and a few others... should have been tried at the Hague.

          "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

          by kj in missouri on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:03:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Please watch this AB... this is why... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arizonablue

      'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:59:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for this, we need this conversation (4+ / 0-)

    I have to run right now, but I'll drop back by later.

    I think a general lack of understanding of how digital rights and the internet work in general is a huge stumbling block in this. For me the big issue is the telephony metadata. That is so much broader than it sounds. In 2006 we were told that the government have "phone records" and it was presented as if they had records of the calls we'd made. I wasn't a huge fan of that but telephony data potentially includes text messages and information on where you've been. That's concerning.

    Ultimately, I simply have a complete lack of trust when we're told that this isn't as wide spread as Snowden has claimed. Mainly because they've lied again and again. They had said for years that they weren't collecting information on Americans, and now they're like "oh, well this isn't information!"

    I don't know a lot about PRISM and if you have a good link to what all it includes then that would be great.

    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

    by AoT on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 06:03:10 PM PDT

    •  the meta data is a huge issue (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arizonablue, kj in missouri, AoT

      and it's another that needs to be addressed and not even with just the government but phone companies too. I didn't really talk about it much because I have so heard so little about it to date and I don't want to get ahead of myself.

      The only real info I have on PRISM is what I have read from various papers and it's wiki.

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:41:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  a year ago, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arizonablue, AoT, duhban

      after i brought my first IPhone home and discovered the little green dot could follow me around my own home, i knew i was locked in the grid like a lobster in a trap.

      i mean, i knew before, it just wasn't so damn obvious. my first reaction was to laugh, "they'd" done it!   the phone knew when i went from the front door to the back.   that little phone knows everything.   and here i thought cleaning my brower history was proactive.  we are so far behind this curve it's unfathomable.

      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

      by kj in missouri on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:51:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I want to answer your question, with a question. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arizonablue, AoT
    And to those that want to contest this I want to ask a simple question, if it is possible to completely monitor the internet then why do nations like China censor the internet rather then monitoring it?
    How do you think countries like China censor the Internet without monitoring it?

    'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

    by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:24:04 PM PDT

    •  After you answer that question, please tell me (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arizonablue, AoT

      why the NSA needs all this data storage.

      'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:35:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this is a strawman (0+ / 0-)

        I am not saying the NSA doesn't store data.

        I am saying there is no way to store even the daily US traffic let alone the entire world. The storage requirements (which since you are talking about some sort of RAID setup are probably three times what you would need) are just too much.

        Yes the NSA stores things, no it does not store the entire daily traffic of the US. It's just not even close to feasible.

        In the time that I have been given,
        I am what I am

        by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:03:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  See Aot's comment: important technical point... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpecialKinFlag

          And could you please answer the questions?

          1. How do you think countries like China censor the Internet without monitoring it?

          2. Why does the NSA (et al.) need all that data storage?

          'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

          by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:15:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

            1. I answered already

            2. If you have a point make it I'm not really in the mood for games. Your question right now is a strawman. The NSA needs storage but  that doesn't mean they are sucking in everything. That's not logical.

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:30:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  1. What was your answer? I didn't see it. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DeadHead

              2. You didn't read Aot's answer did you?

              Please answer the questions.

              'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

              by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:36:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You did not answer #1 (2+ / 0-)

              You only made a feeble attempt to answer the second question.

              Saying you aren't "in the mood for games" and dismissing questions as strawmen doesn't bring anyone any closer to understanding your view.

              If you have no answer, just admit it. It's not the end of the world.




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:03:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you are welcome to your opinion (0+ / 0-)

                but then again just because you shout the sky is purple doesn't make it so.

                I have engaged you and Clive with honest intent if you are only here to disrupt my diary I am going to ask you kindly to just please leave. I answered his questions as best as I understand them, if that doesn't satisfy you or Clive then by all means ask more questions.  But I am not going to put up with you or Clive derailing my diary.

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:59:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  You are basing this on traffic being unique (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DeadHead

          The total traffic flowing through the internet in the US will encompass the million people streaming the same exact movie from NetFlix for example. Or the million people streaming the same YouTube video. Or millions downloading the same damn porn. And so on and so on.

          Even this diary page only needs one copy - the last one - as it is cumulative.

          The actual unique content crossing the internet in the US - or the world for that matter - is probably close to 1/1000th of 1 percent of the total traffic.

          The storage requirements, without even considering compression, are significantly lower than you estimate.

          •  and you are pulling numbers out of thin air (0+ / 0-)

            and acting like you have a basis to use them

            Frankly uniqueness doesn't matter because even if me and you do exactly  the same thing there's no way to know if either of us is doing something without checking both.

            Thus unique or not it matter not.

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:51:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  This is an important technical point (2+ / 0-)

        A lot of people are saying that there is no way that the government could scop up all the data on the internet and store it because it would just be too big. That may technically be true, although I bet they could store everything if they tried, but the more important point is that they don't need to store everything. When you take the total data transmitted everyday it's pretty huge, but then you subtract all the streaming video from places like netflix and Hulu and Amazon, because those can just be noted as metadata saying you watched some movie or another. Streaming video alone accounts for half of internet traffic in north america. That means you've cut the amount of data in half.

        If they just stored the text stuff then it would be a trivial problem. Email, web boards, etc. They could add internet telephony programs like skype or google talk by using text to speech software and then storing it as text. It wouldn't be perfect but neither would human agents listening to the phone calls. And I'd bet that the NSA has text to speech programs that are much better than publicly available. I'm not sure what that leaves other than various encrypted stuff the type of which isn't known.

        That's the unknown here. They almost certainly can't decrypt it on the fly, but I'd bet they would easily be able to capture all TOR traffic given the size of the network currently. There's also a good chance that they have algorythms to determine what they do and don't capture, which would also cut down on the necessary storage, as would text compression.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:09:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  here's the problem with that approach (0+ / 0-)

          if I have a text document or some pictures I want to hide the best place to hide them is in a movie.

          Frankly if I really wanted to communicate I'd find a way to insert some code in Hulu, Amazon or Netflix that would add just a small text document.

          You can't just ignore the nontext

          In the time that I have been given,
          I am what I am

          by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:24:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, but I can't send you data from Netflix (2+ / 0-)

            And how much streaming happens peer to peer? That isn't ilegal?

            And if you can just "insert some code in Hulu" then you don't have to worry about what you're talking about. That would require a pretty impressive knowledge of coding and internet security. Far more than you or I have.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:04:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I smell something, and it ain't roses. nt (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Free Jazz at High Noon, DeadHead

              'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

              by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:07:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sounds like the title of a country song, that (2+ / 0-)
              •  I am trying to engage you honestly (0+ / 0-)

                and without prejudice but you are rapidly exhausting my patience.

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:06:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No you aren't. Answer my questions, then (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DeadHead

                  we can decide if you are engaging honestly.

                  'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                  by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:08:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I have answered your questions (0+ / 0-)

                    if you have further ones let me know but continue being insulting and snide and I will ignore you.

                    In the time that I have been given,
                    I am what I am

                    by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:49:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You haven't answered my questions. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      DeadHead

                      You asked anyone who would challenge the premise of your diary:

                         

                      And to those that want to contest this I want to ask a simple question, if it is possible to completely monitor the internet then why do nations like China censor the internet rather then monitoring it?
                      So I asked you:
                      How do you think countries like China censor the Internet without monitoring it?
                      To which I've yet to get an answer. The other question I asked is:
                      Why does the NSA (et al.) need all this data storage space?
                      Again, crickets. Now be so kind as to attempt to answer these questions in an adult fashion.

                      'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:04:11 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  I can't imagine how you'd hold up if you posted (1+ / 0-)

                  a meta diary of the type we've been seeing lately.




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                  ~ Jerry Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:32:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  see this is why I dislike you (0+ / 0-)

                    because the minute you think it's just you and your like minded allies you turn nasty.

                    I tried for the sake of being nice to at least forgive you but you know I think it better if you just leave me alone and I leave you alone.

                    In the time that I have been given,
                    I am what I am

                    by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:50:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There are thousands of people reading this... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      DeadHead

                      thinking 'Wow, duhban is a dick!'... and not in a good way.

                      'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:16:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  And, to your credit, I actually noticed that (0+ / 0-)

                      and was rather pleasantly surprised.

                      Now above, I simply made an observation on what appears to be your inability to field even a modest amount of pushback on your diary.

                      That you take things so incredibly personal, become defensive at the first indication of things not going your way, and refuse to even consider the possibility you might be wrong, are your issues, not mine.  




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                      ~ Jerry Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:29:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  no you made a nasty comment (0+ / 0-)

                        because hardly anyone is looking and it's unlikely anyone will in a small diary like this because I am not going to put up with Clive's bullshit.

                        I have tried my best to answer his questions if he doesn't like the answer too bad and if he feels they are incomplete then it is on Clive to communicate what Clive feels I am missing. Not to make assumptions and then insult me.

                        That's not how you communicate and there's nothing personal about this DeadHead. Neither you nor Clive are worth making this personal but neither am I going to be shy about hiding how past annoyed I am at what I see as an attempt to derail my diary because you or Clive don't like my answers.

                        I can always be wrong DeadHead, here's a shocker though so can you.

                        In the time that I have been given,
                        I am what I am

                        by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:52:15 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Dude, this is your idea of a nasty comment? : (1+ / 0-)
                          I can't imagine how you'd hold up if you posted

                          a meta diary of the type we've been seeing lately.

                          Wow. You may want to consider growing a thicker skin. You should read this diary, posted back in 2005, long before either you or I were here:

                           Profanity, Propriety, Censorship, and Semantics

                          I guarantee you, you'll find it interesting.




                          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                          ~ Jerry Garcia

                          by DeadHead on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 02:40:18 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            before I comment further I want to make something crystal clear. I don't like you. I don't trust you at all let alone to act in good faith. This little thread has come to dominate my diary with Clive demanding me answer a question but not telling me what it is I am not answering while you act as his cheerleader.

                            I am only continuing to talk with you because I feel I should give this one last shot but I seriously am considering never responding ever again no matter how nice you randomly decide to be and reporting you to the admins for stalking me (as I know you will continue to follow me around) till you or me is gone.

                            If you want to have an actual discussion like adults sure but I am sick of your double act. I don't care if you are incredibly  impressed by this or utterly indifferent I want you to understand without a doubt where me and you stand.

                            You have a history of making snide, rude, condescending and arrogant comments to me. Was the comment you are referencing one of your worst? No but I have no tolerance for any of that from you. You want to talk? I would love that but you have used up all goodwill with me whether you want to change that or not is up to you. Right now in all honesty you are in the category of 'I would never even think about you let alone care if we never talked again'

                            The choice is yours but honestly I am not holding my breath.

                            In the time that I have been given,
                            I am what I am

                            by duhban on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:37:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Whatever (1+ / 0-)

                            You win the internet.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                            ~ Jerry Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:37:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  actually in theory you could (0+ / 0-)

              granted it's probably easier to just embed something into youtube and share account access.

              That said if you can figure out a way to inject code into a netflix stream you could but as I said honestly it's far easier to just go to youtube or a torrent site. But even then you still couldn't ignore those streams.

              And frankly there are people with the knowledge and means I would posit that they don't because there is no point.

              But if you are going to monitoring the internet you can't just cherry pick.

              In the time that I have been given,
              I am what I am

              by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:05:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  generally they don't (0+ / 0-)

      when China for example wants to block facebook access for example they simply do so by blocking all ports (the routing aspect of the internet) leading from china to facebook.

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:00:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's clear that you don't understand how... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Free Jazz at High Noon

        censorship works in China.

        Starting earlier this year, Web police units directed the companies, which included joint ventures involving American corporations, to buy and install hardware to log the traffic of hundreds or thousands of computers, block selected Web sites, and connect with local police servers, according to industry executives and official directives obtained by The New York Times. Companies faced the threat of fines and suspended Internet service if they did not comply by prescribed deadlines.

        [...]

        On domestic social networks, already vigorously policed, censors have fine-tuned their craft. Sina Weibo, the nation’s most popular microblogging site, has experimented with “semi-censorship,”as one blog termed it, filtering search results for once-unsearchable terms. One semi-censored term was the Chinese shorthand for the party congress itself: shiba da. Blocking it had prompted some of China’s more playful microbloggers to resort to a similar-sounding English substitute: “Sparta.”

        [...]

        The police and other agencies rely on legions of local censors (informants - Clive), automated filtering and strict regulation of Internet service providers.

        [...]

         The orders, first reported by CNN, cited existing regulations and designated vendors. The police in the Hebei city of Qinhuangdao notified one company that it would face a fine of 15,000 renminbi, or about $2,400, and lose Internet service for half a year if it did not install the system by mid-August.

        Technology specialists warned that foreign companies installing the devices could be directly exposed to intellectual property theft and cyberattacks.

        “This box, in addition to being able to monitor any queries about Tiananmen Square or Tibet or the Dalai Lama, also would be able to intercept all network communications from the China operations back to headquarters,” said Thomas Parenty, an information security consultant for foreign companies in China.

        So, just in case you are wondering how the Chinese are getting USA proprietary secrets, international (or local) companies wanting to do business in China, have to let them in the back door.

        Internet censorship in China is not as simple as just blocking sites. It's much more intrusive and American companies have helped.

        'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

        by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:34:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the vast majority of censorship (0+ / 0-)

          is simply blocking IP and DNS which as AoT already explained is quick and effective and akin to screening by phone number.

          I have no doubt there are actual censors there too but that's not what they are using to universially block sites.

          In the time that I have been given,
          I am what I am

          by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:18:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That still requires monitoring (3+ / 0-)

        I apologize ahead of time for the remedial tone in some of this, I want to make sure everyone understands.

        Although I think the confusing here is around the fact that there are different levels of monitoring. Blocking facebook requires that they simply block the IP addresses of facebook's servers(not the ports, all web traffic uses the same port). That means that they only have to look at one aspect of packet metadata, the IP address. It's the digital equivalent of screening calls based on what the numbers of the caller is, quick and dirty. It's easy to get around, but it will work to stop the majority of people. They also block it at the DNS level. DNS(Domain Name Server) is how the internet converts website names to IP addresses(internet phone numbers). So if China were to remove facebook from theie DNS servers it would be a quick and dirty way to stop most people from accessing facebook. So they do both.

        In terms of monitoring internet traffic in the US I'd point to my other comment about this issue above. You can sort stuff very easily. They don't have to sort the stuf from facebook because they have a "direct" line. Same goes for the other sites they have access to. But they can sort out large swathes of data that they farm.

        More importantly, we're only a decade or two from them having the ability to snoop on everything.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:55:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I do think this is a term issue (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          I meant monitoring as in looking past the meta level and into the actual payload.

          As you said examining the IP is trivial by comparison and not to mention it's not what people mean when they talk about 'the government monitoring the internet'. My apologies for being inprecise and talking at a more colliqual level.

          By the by thank you I still confuse ports and IP addresses. One of these days I will take some actual classes and maybe get a more formal grounding in this.

          Me and you are simply just not going to agree I think on how easy storing the data is. I am not saying it can't be done but it's not easy and frankly I don't see any way they wouldn't in the long term be swamped by data.

          I also think we are more then a decade or two away from anything like that because no matter how exponentil the growth of storage and processing is, the internet is just plain growing faster.

          In the time that I have been given,
          I am what I am

          by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:15:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The issue of storage is an odd one (0+ / 0-)

            Mostly, the government wouldn't have to store anything as all of the data would be stored on a server at some company or another and they could get access to those servers. So, they have no need to store a specific youtube video or streaming movie. They can just note who sent the video to who and who uploaded it and then head over to youtube for the content itself. That cuts out a lot of data storage.

            There are two big things that they can get off of the internet, content and relationship data. Content is obviously larger in terms of storage, but as I noted about they don't need to store all of it. Relationship data, or the stuff about who interacts with whom.

            I also think we are more then a decade or two away from anything like that because no matter how exponentil the growth of storage and processing is, the internet is just plain growing faster.
            Except most of that growth is driven by centralized content which is easily trackable, not by interactions between people, which is what the NSA would want to focus on. I would bet that they've currently got enough info to put a lot of people away for a long, long time based on illegal downloads and sharing of copyrighted content.

            These are the things that worry me. Most everyone breaks the law on a somewhat regular basis, even if that just means they speed or roll a stop sign. When you do the equivalent of those things on the internet it can quickly turn into a much worse crime legally speaking. With the info that they have they can look at my relationship with various people and then decide that either those people or myself are worth pursuing legally. And that can happen based on this data.

            And for all the talk of safe guards I think we all know that another president like Bush and that will be gone, out the window. It's all secret so we won't even know until it's too late. This is where the worries about Fascism come from. If the government has this power it's only a matter of time until they use it.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 09:19:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Here's the most interesting thing about that. (3+ / 0-)

    I understand next year they're going to snaz up the name -- it'll be PRIZM.

    What would Mothra do?

    by dov12348 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:55:00 PM PDT

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