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Just a quick note:  Do you know who gave us the story that Al Gore invented the internet?  Answer:  Declan McCullagh, the same person who brought us NSA spying flap extends to contents of U.S. phone calls.  The story that has had numerous posts here, but is getting beat up in other places, especially with Representative Nadler himself stating "“I am pleased that the administration has reiterated that, as I have always believed, the NSA cannot listen to the content of Americans’ phone calls without a specific warrant.”

Why do I think this is important?  Because I'm seeing way too much confirmation bias here at this site.  Especially with regards to one website in particular, Little Green Footballs, that has been going after the more extreme claims of what the NSA can and is able to do.  it doesn't matter how much evidence he includes, including transcripts of Congressional videos, people blow it off because:

1.  Even if it proves this instance false, my conclusion is still true
2.  Charles Johnson is a winger and therefore shouldn't be listened to.

People who have been making the second quote obviously have no clue what has happened at LGF or Charles Johnson.  (Like John Cole's conversion after Terri Schaivo, Johnson's eyes were opened to what the Republican party had turned into by their handing of the mosque in NY.)

If you're going to dis one source for who he supposedly is, you should probably do that to all your sources, especially those who fake a quote of a presidential candidate.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (21+ / 0-)

    "But the problem with any ideology is that it gives the answer before you look at the evidence." - President Clinton

    by anonevent on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 01:46:24 PM PDT

  •  I've actually been considering saying (9+ / 0-)

    goodbye to DKos and hanging out at LGF. It's become the reality based community of the left. It's just not as active with as many users, so that's why I haven't made the switch yet.

    I'd like to start a new meme: "No means no" is a misnomer. It should be "Only 'Yes' means yes." Just because someone doesn't say "No" doesn't mean they've given consent. If she didn't say "Yes", there is no consent.

    by second gen on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:10:54 PM PDT

    •  Same here, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      second gen, FiredUpInCA

      The comment section is very awkward though.

      Ron Reagan: "Sarah Palin's constituency are people who wear red rubber noses and bells on their shoes."

      by AnnetteK on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:14:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've read it for a couple years now. Finally (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AnnetteK, FiredUpInCA

        signed up for an ID a few months ago (For a while it was closed, or maybe it was just me getting errors)

        I don't mind the comment section too much, it's different from here, definitely takes some getting used to.

        I'd like to start a new meme: "No means no" is a misnomer. It should be "Only 'Yes' means yes." Just because someone doesn't say "No" doesn't mean they've given consent. If she didn't say "Yes", there is no consent.

        by second gen on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:18:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm too much of a junkie (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AnnetteK, second gen, FiredUpInCA

      and then there's the "someone's wrong on the internet" issue, even though I'm not terribly good at convincing people online.  But yeah, I understand the feeling.

      "But the problem with any ideology is that it gives the answer before you look at the evidence." - President Clinton

      by anonevent on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:24:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think there's less tolerance for trashing each (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AnnetteK

        other there, whichever side of the issue one is on. I'm okay with that.

        I'd like to start a new meme: "No means no" is a misnomer. It should be "Only 'Yes' means yes." Just because someone doesn't say "No" doesn't mean they've given consent. If she didn't say "Yes", there is no consent.

        by second gen on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:25:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yep, every.f&^$"!ing time (9+ / 0-)

    I tried to say what LGF had I got mocked and told "what has this site come to, it'll be Breitbart next" and "this crap used to get HRd out of here".

    No matter that I tried to explain, no matter that LGF has been all over this story from the get go.

    For their information...

    Ron Reagan: "Sarah Palin's constituency are people who wear red rubber noses and bells on their shoes."

    by AnnetteK on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:13:04 PM PDT

  •  Al Gore (0+ / 0-)

    Did invent the internet as we know it through a series of recommendations for how to spin off government research to commercial entities.

    Doubt that he ever said directly, "I invented the internet."  in the sense that he invented the technology.

    In this case, Rep. Nadler is going to have to be a little more explicit about what he heard at the briefing in order to prove that Declan McCullough had it all wrong.

    I notice that McCullough updated his article with a correction.

    50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

    by TarheelDem on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:33:17 PM PDT

    •  Yes, but Al Gore didn't say he invtented the (9+ / 0-)

      internet.  And the evidence coming out is showing that the CNET article is being more sensational than factual.

      "But the problem with any ideology is that it gives the answer before you look at the evidence." - President Clinton

      by anonevent on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:47:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  CNET has updated its article (0+ / 0-)

        ...in response to Nadler's statements.  Read the updated version.

        There is the need for independent investigation of the allegations made and of what exactly NSA is doing.  Nadler cannot as a member of Congress repeat exactly what he was told or talk too directly about it.  He is partially gagged by the fact it was a secret briefing.

        50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

        by TarheelDem on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 02:52:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  First saw me some internet in 1979 (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chmood

          Something the size of a typewritter with a molded plastic modem cradle, that could text to another similar machine.

          Well really it was texting or IM over a phone line.

          .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

          by Roger Fox on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 03:02:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not exactly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Roger Fox

            ...the "information superhighway".

            I first saw the internet with a downloaded Mosaic browser.  Main WOW attraction was the Austrian State Library System's catalog.  You could actually do searches for authors, titles, etc.  It wasn't all static documents.

            50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

            by TarheelDem on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 03:45:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  No one can deny that Gore was instrumental.... (7+ / 0-)

        ....in establishing the Internet as a public resource. More so than anyone else in the government.

        The slimy slander part was when the Republican noise machine tacked on the word "invented."  Clever!

        To illustrate, compare:

        "Eisenhower was instrumental in establishing the interstate highway system."   Historical fact.

        "Eisenhower claims he invented highways."  What a conceited goof!

        "I wonder why Congress again in a new poll out today--11% approval rating. (It's) because they don't work for us. They work for the sons-of-bitches who pay them." Cenk Uygur

        by Dave in Columbus on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 03:06:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  "I PRACTICALLY INVENTED the internet" (0+ / 0-)

        said Al to Barbara Walters, back in '99(?), when she interviewed Al and Tipper in prime-time.

        Yes, he really did.  For some unknown reason, I was watching it, and I heard it...so I'd love to see folks stop saying it never happened.

        Show me the whisky stains on the floor
        Show me an old drunkard as he stumbles to the door
        And I'll see a young man with so many reasons why...
        ...and there, but for FORTUNE, go you - or I... - thanks, Phil

        by chmood on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 10:54:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Even if so, everyone knew what he meant (0+ / 0-)

          That anyone would think Gore actually tried to lay claim to personally building and programming the devices that first constituted an Internet is ludicrous. He was taking credit for his legislative successes, like any politician worth his salt would.

          Actually met McCullagh once and argued with him about this very story, although at the time I didn't know he was the "I invented the Internet" guy. When I realized it a while later, it certainly explained why he was so worked up and dismissive about it!

          Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

          by Simplify on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:42:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "That very story" = Gore/Internet, not NSA (0+ / 0-)

            Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

            by Simplify on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:57:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  NO idea WHO you're name-dropping, nor do I care (0+ / 0-)

              Piling up he-saids and she-saids isn't going to help you.  Or me.

              Or the country.  But keep playing if it's fun for you.

              Show me the whisky stains on the floor
              Show me an old drunkard as he stumbles to the door
              And I'll see a young man with so many reasons why...
              ...and there, but for FORTUNE, go you - or I... - thanks, Phil

              by chmood on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:21:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  The Net of massive commercial powers and ISPs (0+ / 0-)

            as Swiftian gatekeepers is his creature, if not his expilict intent.

            That anyone would push an emotion-based 'argument' about how the wrong-wing mangles things for political purposes, puts them not so far from Hannity's plaintive-aggressive "you know what he meant", back in the days of Dubya's massive misspeakage.

            Oh:  "Even if so..."  Am I a liar now?  You were watching the same cozy interview and he DIDN'T say it?  Then CALL me a liar like you got a pair, and post the clip - or quit your partisan talk-radio weaseling.  Thank you.

            Show me the whisky stains on the floor
            Show me an old drunkard as he stumbles to the door
            And I'll see a young man with so many reasons why...
            ...and there, but for FORTUNE, go you - or I... - thanks, Phil

            by chmood on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:18:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  One thing I've learned (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sewaneepat, second gen, badger, sviscusi

    is that zealots don't care about consistency.  All they care about is whether you agree with them.

    It's why Obamaroxers think the world of Charles Johnson despite his former support of the Iraq War but Greenwald has no credibility because he wrote a sentence stating that he once supported the Iraq War.  And they will use this to dismiss McCullough regardless of the merit of his NSA story (which is at this point a little questionable since it's not clear whether Mueller was right about a warrant being needed or whether the info Nadler got in a classified briefing that a warrant wasn't needed was right).

    And it's why the Obamasuxers will excuse Declan McCullough's past reporting on Al Gore inventing the Internet but Charles Johnson has no credibility with them because of his past support of Bush and the Iraq War.

    The only thing that should matter is the quality of the story whether it's Greenwald or McCullough or whoever.  But for a lot of folks it's not about trying to objectively find out what exactly happened but furthering a preconceived narrative.

    "Those who have wrought great changes in the world never succeeded by gaining over chiefs; but always by exciting the multitude." - Martin Van Buren

    by puakev on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 03:06:14 PM PDT

    •  I'm not much for attacking people, though (0+ / 0-)

      it can be easy:  "Greenwald sits in his cozy place in Brazil and doesn't have to actually live with the policies he's advocating" or "Charles Johnson is just like Erick Erickson".  Except for Erick, this is in general a bad way to debate, especially if a number of people are bringing the source up.

      "But the problem with any ideology is that it gives the answer before you look at the evidence." - President Clinton

      by anonevent on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 03:41:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're exactly right (0+ / 0-)

      It's almost as if thinking is a zero sum game and that the larger the group the less ability each individual has to process complex thoughts and that as the group get smaller each person individual ability to understand complexity grows.

      The NSA story is massively complex, involving everything from basic philosophical augments on freedom vs safety to the way technology has completely changed the way we communicate and who has access to that data.

      We do ourselves a disservice passing judgements without gathering the facts we need because if(when) it comes back that the needle has moved too much in one direction it makes it that much harder to move it back.  

      At some point we are going to have to decide just how much we value our data, and not just from the government, but also from google and facebook, and all those companies that build their business based on data mining every ones every activity and selling it to the highest bidder.  And when we do make that decision our arguments need to be based in absolute fact, anything less will be shredded by hundreds of millions in lobbying.

  •  Not only did Al gore create the internet. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FiredUpInCA, Naniboujou, Linda1961

    But if enough continue to misbehave he can take it away from us.

    What would Mothra do?

    by dov12348 on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 04:21:40 PM PDT

  •  We absolutely know one fact: (0+ / 0-)

    We don't know what the NSA can do or is doing.  OK that's two facts.  Everything else is rumor.  

    However the question you raise is not "can" but "does."  

    They seem to have admitted that it is possible (they can)  listen to the content of phone conversations.  The question then becomes do they do it without a warrant?  Given that you can't prove a negative we don't know.  They claim that a low level employee wouldn't be able to listen in on just anyone.  We don't know that.  We don't know what is possible for someone in Snowden's position to do because we don't even know exactly what his position was.  

    It's all rumor because we don't and may never have reliable facts on which to have an informed opinion.  My experience leads me to believe that in huge human system if it can happen it will and of course there have been phone conversations monitored without a warrent but "I don't have the facts to back that up."  Allen West      

    A bad idea isn't responsible for those who believe it. ---Stephen Cannell

    by YellerDog on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 10:06:52 PM PDT

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