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views on NSA hearings
WaPo on new ABC/WaPo poll (above graphic):
Americans are divided when it comes to charging Edward Snowden with a crime for leaking portions of the National Security Agency’s sweeping surveillance of phone records and Internet activity, but they clearly want to know more, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll. Nearly two-thirds said they want open, public congressional hearings on the previously secret programs.
Pew:
The new national survey, conducted June 12-16 by the Pew Research Center and USA TODAY among 1,512 adults, finds that 44% think that the release of classified information about the NSA program harms the public interest, while 49% say it serves the public interest.
pew poll on reaction to edward snowden
However, 54% of the public – including identical majorities of Republicans and Democrats (59% each) – say the government should pursue a criminal case against the person responsible for leaking the classified information about the program.
Definitely some age related splitting: younger voters think it was more valuable and want less prosecution.

RIP Michael Hastings at age 33. He wrote this. And this:

On Reddit, Michael Hastings once shared some good advice for young journalists #RIP http://t.co/...
@charliespiering
Rick Perlstein:
So far [Glenn] Greenwald has been lucky, and because he has been lucky, everyone who cares about fixing our puke-worthy system of "oversight" of the American state's out-of-control spy regime has been lucky too. Yes, clowns like Peter King and irrelevant throwbacks like Dick Cheney cry treason and call for death squads or tumbrels or whatever. But the bottom line is that for whatever reason (reasons I think will only become clear in the light of later history) the American establishment seems ready to think about this story—ready to give a hard look at what our surveillance state has become. The evidence is there in thoughtful and detailed reporting and analysis on how PRISM might actually work, for instance in this Associated Press piece (which is far more usefully critical than the typical piece on the Bush administration’s lies about Iraq's claimed weapons of mass destruction in 2003, which the American establishment was not ready to think about), and this analysis by technologist Ashkan Soltani—both of which sort through the available evidence far better than Glenn Greenwald does, but also would not exist without what Greenwald and Edward Snowden courageously did, however flawed Greenwald and Snowden might be as messengers. Life can be complicated that way.
Complicated, and nuanced. That it is. And Glenn fights with other people. So it goes. It's not about him, it's about the story, but the fights are generally about the story.

More politics and policy below the fold.

Hey, if you want a fight, go watch Nate Silver fight with Politico, via TPM:

Silver was responding to an interview with Politico co-founders John Harris and Jim VandeHei in The New Republic. Both offered some praise of Silver's work, but Harris said the New York Times' resident polling guru "gets up on his high horse quite a lot on different topics." VandeHei said that some of Silver's "stuff goes on and on" and argued that he uses "numbers to prove stuff that I don’t think can be proved by numbers alone."

Silver said he thought "it was a good interview" but that Harris and VandeHei often mischaracterize his central criticism of Politico.

"It's striking how preoccupied Harris and VandeHei are with the perception that Politico is too 'insidery,'" Silver wrote. "My personal critique of their work cuts a little deeper than that, however. It's not that they are too 'insidery' per se, but that the perceptions of Beltway insiders, which Politico echoes and embraces, are not always very insightful or accurate. In other words, the conventional wisdom is often wrong, especially in Washington."

He added later in the email: "Furthermore, Harris and VandeHei seem to lack very much curiosity for the world outside of the bubble."

They can't read polls, either. If you read Politico during 2012, you might have thought Romney was in contention.
Paul Offit dedicated his latest book to science writers, advocates & bloggers who fight pseudoscience. ++
@michellesipics
Mike Gerson  has some words of wisdom to share on the Republican Party:
But parties generally don’t get to reformulate their appeal from scratch. While Republicans can’t win with their base alone, they also can’t win without it. Religious conservatives, for example, are the single largest constituency within the GOP, and compose about a quarter of the entire electorate. Such voters are not baggage thrown overboard to lighten the ship; they are planks in the hull.
Read that, then read this from MSNBC:
While the [abortion] vote offered a chance for members from socially conservative districts to flex their political muscles, some moderate Republicans grumbled about the leadership’s decision to hold a vote on a controversial measure with no chance of going beyond the House.

“I think a lot of people are shaking their heads and not understanding why we’re doing this,” said one GOP official, who added that votes on hot-button social issues don’t help the party maintain much-needed Republican seats in moderate districts.
Republican Rep. Charlie Dent of Pennsylvania bluntly told The New York Times that the vote is “a stupid idea.”

Every election matters. See 2010. But this is an example of Gerson's playing to the base.

Bigger picture from Gallup:

Americans still rate the Republican Party less favorably than the Democratic Party, 39% vs. 46%. But both parties' ratings are down from November 2012. The Democrats' rating dropped more, from 51% just after President Barack Obama won re-election. Americans' ratings of the Democratic Party are now more on par with readings earlier in 2012, while their ratings of the GOP are the lowest since May 2010.
Greg Sargent:
There’s some interesting sleight of hand here. Note that Boehner seems more focused on enforcement and border security than on citizenship. The Speaker is claiming that if a majority of House Republicans thinks the emerging proposal isn’t tough enough on border security, then the House won’t vote on it. But the real Rubicon House Republicans must cross is the path to citizenship. What happens if a majority of House Republicans can’t support the path to citizenship, no matter how tough the border security elements are made? In that scenario, if Boehner holds to his vow, the House wouldn’t vote on anything that includes citizenship, right? And that scenario very well may come to pass.

Someone needs to ask the Speaker: If a majority of House Republicans can’t accept a path to citizenship, will you really not allow a House vote on any emerging proposal that contains one?

and Greg Sargent:
Democrats on the House Oversight Committee have just released a full transcript of testimony from a key witness in the investigation of IRS targeting of conservatives — and it appears to confirm that the initial targeting did originate with a low-level employee in the Cincinnati office.
It also shows a key witness and IRS screening manager – a self described conservative Republican — denying any communication with the White House or senior IRS officials about the targeting.
The IRS, like Benghazi, is a nothingburger used for partisan reasons by the GOP. That conclusion is based on a Congressional investigation, not reflexive. Good to look. We looked. Dismissed.

PS Responsible journalists will mention that every time they bring up this disproven "scandal".

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Comment Preferences

    •  Looks like Perlstein is walking back his previous (4+ / 0-)

      remarks. GG and Snowden are not "flawed" as messengers, since there is never an "unflawed" messenger as far as the discomforted are concerned; no-one concerned with the substance of the matter gives a shit about the messengers.

      The ones that do are either avowed lackeys of the State - the likes of Brokaw, Cohen, and Schieffer - who have made their careers and fortunes parroting the government line, or wannabes, like Perlstein's brief or erstwhile flirtation with villager "relevance."

      Nuance is a drug that the villagers and their acolytes suck with all the grace and enthusiasm of a crack addict.

      "There's a conceptual zone within which the romanticized historical past and the immanentizing historical future converge in a swamp of misapprehension and misstep. It's called 'the present'." - David Beige

      by Superskepticalman on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:31:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  nuance is hard but the part I quoted (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adam AZ, SoCalSal, I love OCD, Sylv

        is correct. And to observe that Glenn gets into fights with people? Empirical fact.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:35:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So did Hillary and Obama supporters here... (3+ / 0-)

          Fights are an inevitable part of political discourse: get used to it. It's not a dig against Glenn that he does. Perlstein made an ignorant accusation against Greenwald, and Glenn kicked his ass.

          Empirical fact, as you would put it.

          "There's a conceptual zone within which the romanticized historical past and the immanentizing historical future converge in a swamp of misapprehension and misstep. It's called 'the present'." - David Beige

          by Superskepticalman on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:39:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the less it's about Greenwald and Snowden (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Heart of the Rockies

            from this point on (giving them their due), the better... for the story.

            Greenwald would be the first to agree.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:46:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then tell that to folks like Kurt Eichenwald... (3+ / 0-)

              He hasn't gotten the message.

              Greenwald didn't start this pie fight, but he's going to make sure he finishes it. Most of his opponents simply don't get that.

              If anything, the more that villages and villager wannabes take on Greenwald, the more the real story gets out and the stupider the Beltway/insider "journalists" appear.

              No-one is going to take Greenwald out the way that the insiders took out someone like Gary Webb.

              "There's a conceptual zone within which the romanticized historical past and the immanentizing historical future converge in a swamp of misapprehension and misstep. It's called 'the present'." - David Beige

              by Superskepticalman on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:05:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  this is a very enlightening exchange (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                thomask, gffish, paytheline

                for those not familiar with it. link

                While this might seem like just a lot of carping and bickering between two journalists, the issue at the core of this Twitter tiff is clearly Greenwald’s status as an outsider on national security issues — something that I (and others, including journalism professor Jay Rosen) have argued made it possible for him to move to the forefront of the reporting on the Edward Snowden leaks.

                That outsider status has also made him a target for those within the traditional national-security establishment, however — a group that Eichenwald would likely fall into — because they perceive him as overstating the Snowden documents or not fully understanding them, and of attacking the government for a program that they believe has a valid purpose.

                And perhaps they are also more than a little jealous that Greenwald is getting attention for a story they knew about but didn’t report much on, until the Snowden leaks threw the doors open and let all that sunlight in.

                Different person, but Michael Hastings was attacked by the establishment press for his Rolling Stone piece on McChrystal. See also this:
                Freelance reporter Michael Hastings, whose Rolling Stone profile of Gen. Stanley McChrystal ended the former top Afghanistan commander’s military career, has been denied an embed slot to join a military unit in Afghanistan, according to news reports.
                Outsiders have a hard time, sometimes.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 08:48:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly. "Getting into fights" is something (3+ / 0-)

            adults who care passionately about issues do.
            Its only a negative when you get a note from the principal about your 2nd grader.

            •  "Getting into fights" is the backhanded compliment (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DrTerwilliker, Involuntary Exile

              that the beaten hurl at their interlocutors. Only they would describe themselves as "passionate about issues."

              By their adjectives, ye shall know them.

              "There's a conceptual zone within which the romanticized historical past and the immanentizing historical future converge in a swamp of misapprehension and misstep. It's called 'the present'." - David Beige

              by Superskepticalman on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:34:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Greenwald isnt 'lucky'. He's good at what he does (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gffish

        He doesnt play the neutral observer role, cooly viewing the fray from some imaginary lofty god's eye POV. He does advocacy journalism.
        Rick Perlstein, on the other hand,...........

        •  jay Rosen covered that nicely (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DrTerwilliker, koNko, gffish

          http://pressthink.org/...

          Two ways to excel in political journalism. Neither dominates.

          “Edward Snowden’s decision to leak to Greenwald, and Glenn’s domination of newsland for several days, tells us that politics: none is not the only way of excelling in journalism. It now has to share the stage with politics: some.”

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 07:03:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Nuance - would that be Eichenwald vs Greewald? (0+ / 0-)

      400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

      by koNko on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 07:36:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  'Boehner and the Immigration Hot Potato'.... (8+ / 0-)

    coming soon to a theater near you.

  •  That poll is devastating proof of the fact (17+ / 0-)

    that Democrats are okay with "intelligence" abuses . . . when Democrats are doing them.

    Disgusting herd mentality.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 04:43:25 AM PDT

  •  The IRS thing: Far more than a non-story. (18+ / 0-)

    Darrell Issa created a HOAX, just like the old Balloon Boy Hoax.

    Issa took advantage of a classified report and MADE SHIT UP and passed it along as serious fact to Americans and to the media, such as they are. (He knew the media would just run with it and not take a nanosecond to ask pertinent questions).

    So he MADE SHIT UP and then passed it along as "true", got people's bowels in an uproar, caused hysteria, took up space in the media and lied through his fucking teeth.

    If I did that I'd get criminal charges.

    On October 18, Larimer County sheriff Jim Alderden announced his conclusion that the incident was a hoax and that the parents would likely face several felony charges.[10][11] Richard Heene pled guilty on November 13, 2009, to the charge of attempting to influence a public servant. On December 23, 2009, Richard Heene was sentenced to 90 days in jail and Mayumi Heene to 20 days of weekend jail;[12] Richard was also ordered to pay $36,000 in restitution.[13]
  •   "Responsible journalists (8+ / 0-)

    will mention that every time they bring up this disproven "scandal"."
    Where may we find those?

  •  Gerson...'They are planks in the hull'....and they (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pinto Pony, Egalitare, mstep

    are tired of DCWash blowing smoke up their asses.....Your chickens have come home to roost GOP.

  •  These polls are fairly worthless (9+ / 0-)

    until we get a clear explanation of what people are being asked to approve or disapprove of.

    Here is the wording of that Washington Post poll linked above for instance:

    It’'s been reported that the federal government’s National Security Agency collects extensive records of phone calls, as well as Internet data related to specific investigations, to try to identify possible terrorist threats. Do you support or oppose this intelligence-gathering program?
    I'm surprised that didn't pull in 100% support. The phrasing implies that we are talking about collecting data only related to "specific investigations," which just sounds like standard law enforcement activity to me.

    Nothing in the question addresses the actual controversy of the past couple weeks - which is the mass collection and storing of phone and internet data that is NOT related to specific investigations.

    •  Phrasing of the Pew Poll: (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Persiflage, salmo, Amber6541, Sylv
      Overall, do you approve or disapprove of the government’s collection of telephone and internet data as part of anti-terrorism efforts?
      Again, I'd argue that it's a very general question and doesn't really address the controversy.
    •  actually they are very valuable (5+ / 0-)

      you just have to read them carefully as you point out. IF it were as described, THEN support. is it as described? Remains to be seen.

      That doesn't make it worthless, it makes it different. Don't use worthless as a synonym for 'didn't get the answer I wanted' or 'didn't ask what I wanted'.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:15:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think the word terrorist (0+ / 0-)

        in the question taints the answer, no matter how the question is asked.

        •  indeed the word "terrorist" should be at the heart (4+ / 0-)

          of the whole issue.  The NSA is a military agency.  It's job is to spy on the communications of foreign governments.  It is not a law enforcement agency, and it has no business doing law enforcement work--like hunting "terrorists".

          Terrorism is a law enforcement issue, not a military issue.  it was our idiotic decision to TREAT it as a military issue, and to place the military in charge of it, that led to the entire national-security surveillance state in the first place.

          Other countries that have had terrorist problems (Britain and the IRA, Spain and the ETA, Italy and the red Brigades) dealt with them in the smart way---they used the plain ole ordinary civilian justice system to arrest the terrorists, try them, and jail them.  And today all those groups are gone.

          The US, on the other hand, dealt with them in the STUPID way, by waging military war on them. And after the longest war in US history and the construction of a national security surveillance state, the terrorists are still there.

          One of those approaches worked. The other did not. And we want to double down and expand the one that did not.

          Fear is the mind-killer.  We have as a nation peed our pants in terror, and now we have lost our goddamn minds.  (shrug)

  •  A leaker should charged...no poll will change that (0+ / 0-)

    The only poll that matters when someone is charged with a crime is the poll of the jurors.  After looking at all the evidence no jury will acquit Snowden.

    •  remember, everything Martin Luther King Jr did (7+ / 0-)

      against segregation was illegal under US law. (And that's why the FBI and NSA spied on him and thought he was a communist.)

      And everything Mao did in China was perfectly legal under Chinese law.

      The "law'n'order" types need to learn the difference between "illegal" and "wrong".

      (shrug)

    •  DOJ can't try him (4+ / 0-)

      because in order to do so, they'd have to disclose way more than they want to about things like how a low-level employee of a private contractor got access to information that the head of NSA told Congress (under oath) is only available to a few top people with top security clearance and would never ever be available to garden-variety analysts.

      And unlike Bradley Manning, he would have to be tried in civilian court. And since I believe he'd be facing capital charges, he'd be thoroughly lawyered-up.

      And of course he can raise the constitutionality (or lack thereof) of the NSA's interpretation of the applicable laws, another issue the Administration does not want litigated in open court.

      On top of that, juries never have to convict -- although judges aren't supposed to tell them that, and don't always allow defense counsel to do so. In parts of New England in the 1850s it was impossible to get a conviction under the Fugitive Slave Act because juries just refused, regardless of the facts.

      •  I doubt he can raise the constitutionality of (0+ / 0-)

        the programs. Jury nullification is very very rare. Of course juries don't HAVE TO convict; the defense attorney will tell them that.

        I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

        by samddobermann on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 04:20:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Juries are unpredictable. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Egalitare, Amber6541, One Opinion

      No two are alike. That's my experience. It's possible that a jury could acquit Snowden. Unlikely maybe, but possible.

      " 'In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.' Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me." Elwood P. Dowd

      by paulbkk on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:14:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Liz Cheney to opine... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gffish

        ...that Snowden be designated an enemy combatant, violently apprehended (publicly, live and exclusively on Fox if at all possible), sent to Gitmo and subject to Military Tribunal to "fix" that in 3...2...

        (Dad will eventually do it, but he has to have Liz float that first to give time for the NeoCon neighborhood of the Village to compose what passes for artful and thoughtful concuring opinion.)

        When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

        by Egalitare on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:28:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for the roundup, Greg! (9+ / 0-)

    I for one am glad Snowden did what he did.  How is he a traitor any more than Valerie Plame-outing Cheney, Rove, and Bush?

    I hope he escapes, or if worst comes to worst, departs this mortal coil at a time of his own choosing.  That would be better than being tortured by the NSA, CIA, and whatever other thugs the USA employs to engage in it.

    I'd have to see incontrovertible evidence before I'd be willing to believe that listening in to my phone calls to my nail salon or reading the e-mails from my daughter telling me her schedule for the summer has helped uncover a "terra" plot.

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 04:59:51 AM PDT

    •  I was thinking something similar this morning. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Diana in NoVa, Stude Dude, gffish
      I'd have to see incontrovertible evidence before I'd be willing to believe that listening in to my phone calls to my nail salon or reading the e-mails from my daughter telling me her schedule for the summer has helped uncover a "terra" plot.
      Sounds like they are spending a lot of time and money on things that are of no consequence.

      Mother Teresa: "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other."

      by Amber6541 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:02:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Since they do neither you can take (0+ / 0-)

      off your tinfoil hat.

      I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

      by samddobermann on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 04:22:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Re the WaPo poll: Yeah, what we need is more and (2+ / 0-)

    more "Democrats." Who are we, again? Who are we supposed to be?

    "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

    by jm214 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:05:26 AM PDT

  •  Let's repeat that Gerson observation again: (8+ / 0-)
    While Republicans can’t win with their base alone, they also can’t win without it. Religious conservatives, for example, are the single largest constituency within the GOP, and compose about a quarter of the entire electorate. Such voters are not baggage thrown overboard to lighten the ship; they are planks in the hull.
    And that's just the General Electorate. In GOP Primary and Caucus season, they may well approach 2/3 of likely participants in some states.

    When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Egalitare on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:06:09 AM PDT

  •  Interesting discussion with my 30 year old son. (8+ / 0-)

    A close acquaintance of his is an immigrant from mainland China.  Both my son and he are working in software engineering.  So here's the new (to me) idea.  My son's friend is of the strong opinion that the Snowden event was timed to distract from the evidence surfacing that China has been a very bad actor in the hacking world against our country and others.  This friend believes Snowden's incentives are financial, coming from China.

    After my son's discussion with his friend he was amazed to hear on public radio an interview with a someone describing this exact scenario.

  •  Thats what I heard on npr yesterday (2+ / 0-)

    Someone was suggesting  that many Americans he had talked to did not mind if the NSA had access to their status updates: going to prom, getting grocery or buying organic or whatever else.
    This is my request to the NSA: I want to have access to all the phone records/email communication of Eric Cantor when he went short the US T Bonds particularly during the debt ceiling negotiations.

    Gallup was trying to reach me a couple of times last week but their automated system chose to ignore me or something like that: I am sure that I would have turned the poll to a more meaningful conclusion: 99 % of Americans do not want their privacy invaded for mundane or grave "national security" matters.

    What we are made to forget is that during the 2000s it was not legal to carry box cutters and if someone in the TSA had done the mandatory check on Atta and co (this was not optional: I was held in O Hare in 1999 because my electric razor had a shape of a boomerang) during those doomed flights the flight or the passengers would have been grounded. Not to mention the absence of follow up on the MN flight training requests etc. We simply needed the folks to allow a thorough follow-up of suspicious activity: the one that a judge will not have difficulty in understanding and not a sweeping request to monitor all the communication with some hope to create a future society where all the human thoughts are put in a single container to get a breakthrough in pure sciences. If that is the goal, then I am willing to signup using my other facebook account.
    One reason i dont like these cloud systems is that I cant hide anymore: long live open id.

    I am not sure what the implications of these surveys are: will it result in a Roosevelt like emergence of a new leader (not Clinton or Kerry certainly) who believes in "You have everything to lose when you lose your privacy: privacy is non-negotiable" slogan. Or will we truly become a surveillance state presenting a blueprint to all the emerging economies for controlling their state.
    Peace.

  •  A rare case of independents staking out a (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Heart of the Rockies, Sylv

    different position altogether.

    We typically fall somewhere between Republicans and Democrats.  Makes sense: We are a mix of people with our own opinions, and we will tend to line up with somewhat with one party or another, depending on the topic.

    Interesting in these polls : both the Washington Post and Pew polls show independents more likely to oppose prosecuting Snowdon than members either of either party.

    Wonder if that's a touch of the independent spirit leaking out?

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:18:08 AM PDT

    •  that did strike me as well (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dinotrac, Heart of the Rockies

      interesting.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:22:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you are not only 'a mix of people with our own (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dinotrac

      opinion', indies are often individual people with mixed opinions.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:23:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and occasionally resorting to mixed drinks (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DRo, Hoghead99, Stude Dude

        when trying to reason with the rest of y'all!

        I fear for my equilibrium when we move to Texas sometime this summer.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:32:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  hey! moving to Texas? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Stude Dude

          it's gonna be a purple state that much faster.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:37:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yup. Chalk up another score for the economy (0+ / 0-)

            In our case, though, we're doing all right, just finally gettting out from under the accumulated baggage of the last few years.  Stay with the mother-in-law for a while to solidify our position and start life fresh, new, and unburdened.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 07:27:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  right (0+ / 0-)

          because only self described "independents" are reasonable, and lord knows members of political parties don't have countless differences on countless issues.

          Actually, most independents line up with one of the major parties, but they don't want to register as either because, as with Republicans now, they're dominated by teanuts, or in the case of Democrats, they're viewed as icky dirty hippies.   And it makes you feel like you're "special" and somehow above it all, even though you're not, and even though you rarely if every offer anything of substance.
          See dinotrac's claim that Susan Rice's statement re Benghazi were some sort of big scandal, could have come straight from a GOP press release.  And was it the IRS matter that was compared to Watergate?  
          You'll find lots of fellow Obama/Dem haters in Texas, all rugged "independents" I'm sure who almost always vote Republican.  

  •  From the (3+ / 0-)

    "http://talkingpointsmemo.com/...AP Piece

    One expert in national security law, who is directly familiar with how Internet companies dealt with the government during that period, recalls conversations in which technology officials worried aloud that the government would trample on Americans’ constitutional right against unlawful searches, and that the companies would be called on to help.

    The logistics were about to get daunting, too.

    For years, the companies had been handling requests from the FBI. Now Congress had given the NSA the authority to take information without warrants. Though the companies didn’t know it, the passage of the Protect America Act gave birth to a top-secret NSA program, officially called US-98XN.

    So once again a name for a bill gives up the exact opposite: "Protect America Act".

    American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

    by glitterscale on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:18:12 AM PDT

  •  These polls are depressing in so many ways (5+ / 0-)

    I can't count them.

    However, they do point to a couple of facts about our country.  We don't teach enough Constitutional law to our school students. We don't teach them WHY the founders wrote the 4th amendment. We don't highlight for them all the times that government has stepped over the line and abused powers against citizens.

    AND we are like lemmings whenever someone raises the BE VERY AFRAID flag.

    Ben Franklin said that we were given a Republic, if we could keep it.  We are not.

    •  THIS part is indeed very relevant: (8+ / 0-)
      We don't highlight for them all the times that government has stepped over the line and abused powers against citizens.
      Certainly it looks to me as if half the people defending the NSA program have no idea at all that the LAST time the NSA had such powers, it abused them at a horrendous rate--they spied on American domestic antiwar and civil rights groups KNOWING that it was illegal, then lied to their "oversight" in Congress about it--and turned all the info over to the FBI for use in its own illegal COINTELPRO to infiltrate and disrupt civil rights and antiwar groups. And that was under at least two different DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATIONS. The Church Committee in 1975 wrote an entire volume about it, "Volume 5: The NSA and Fourth Amendment Rights". It's available online.  Everyone should be tied up and forced to read it.  Twice.

      When the apologists blither to us that the NSA would never ever exceed its legal restraints and do anything illegal or lie about it, they seem completely unaware that the NSA already has done exactly that.  When people like me express the concern that the NSA will simply ignore its legal restrictions and spy on everybody they can, hoovering up as much data and content as they are physically able to, that concern comes because the NSA has already done exactly that, and then lied about it. That is not a theoretical conspiracy theory.  It. Has. Already. Happened.

      Yet most of us are obliviously ignorant of it.

      As a society, we have the memory span of a fruit fly. We never learn any lessons from history because we don't KNOW any history.

      (sigh)

      •  hey, did you see lebron? no headband (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrankAletha

        and the heat won.

        Bet more people know that than know about NSA.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:41:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I must be one of those ahistorical Americans b/c (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sixty Something

        I am unfamiliar with a NSA illeagal spying on Americans scandel after the reorganization and judicial and congressional checks that were implemented. I am also unfamiliar with any evidence yet that this new dust-up actually violated the law.  

        I'm all for changing the law and the program, but wild government fear mongering is just as bad as terrorist fear mongering.

        •  It. Has. Already. Happened. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laconic Lib

          I welcome anything you'd like to cite, though, to indicate that the NSA will not do again what it has, uh, already done before.

          PS---some more history for you.  Google "The Palmer Raids".

          Then look at this piece concerning the illegal infiltration of CISPES by the Reagan Administration:

          http://www.skeptictank.org/...

          THEN look up all the Federal infiltrations directed at Occupy.

          THEN tell me there's nothing to see, the government never spies illegally on us, you're just fear-mongering.

          It.  Has.  Already.  Happened.

          •  I don't pretend to know everything, but I asked (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            One Opinion

            for an example of NSA illeagle spying on Americans after the restructuring and the checks put in place and you point me to the 1920's and FBI infiltrations. Not the same thing.

            •  note your word game: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Laconic Lib
              for an example of NSA illeagle spying on Americans after the restructuring
              It reminds me of the wingnuts asking for an example of a terrorist attack under Dubya after 9-12-2001. (snicker)

              Let's talk about the illegal NSA spying that they did in deliberate violation of explicit law, and their lying to their overseers about it, that we already know has happened. Then feel free to explain to me why they would not ever ever do again what they already have done the last time they had the opportunity to do it.

              PS---the CISPES Cointelpro and the Occupy infiltrations both happened after 1975.

      •  Thanks for the info on the Church committee.. (0+ / 0-)

        I'll be looking that one up. Can't promise I'll read it twice though!

      •  And the focus in schools (2+ / 0-)

        is on math and science, don't you know.  No time for civics education.  Teach to the test, that does not include knowledge of the Constitution.

        We can have democracy in this country, or we can have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis Brandeis

        by Ohkwai on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:19:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  which BE VERY AFRAID flag is that? The one for (0+ / 0-)

      terrorists or the one for government? Are they all that different?

      •  The whole testimony (2+ / 0-)

        about how the NSA was able to foil 50 plots against us is all they needed to say to get Americans to hand over their rights.  It worked with the TSA too.  It didn't matter that the TSA tactics were proven to be easily countered, nor will it matter to the public that it has already been countered that the NSA tactics were only corollary to thwarting those plots, and not the main reason that happened.

        There is a really good book on this that I would recommend on the issue of government using fear tactics to violate Constitutional rights. It's  titled
        Perilous Times by Jeffrey R. Stone.   It traces the periods in history, starting with the Alien and Sedition Act, where we have meekly handed over our rights in the face of fearmongering by our government.

      •  when you say "it's all paranoia !!" about (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laconic Lib

        things that have already happened and been documented by the US Senate, do you realize how silly that makes you look?

        Just wondering . . .

        •  I didn't say that. It's not all paranoia, but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          One Opinion

          there is definatly some paranoia. There is reason to fear government abuse of power, just as there is reason to fear terrorist attack. If that makes me look like Bozo the Clown then I guess I need bigger shoes and an even smaller car.

          •  you didn't say this? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Laconic Lib
            wild government fear mongering is just as bad as terrorist fear mongering.
            which BE VERY AFRAID flag is that? The one for terrorists or the one for government?
            Is your cat posting under your username or something?

            Given that (1) the NSA has already done absolutely everything that it is now saying it won't do cross my heart trust me, and (2) previous behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, arguing that the NSA would never do that, after they already did exactly that, is just silly. I tend to ignore the rants of silly persons.

  •  That's pretty creepy that so many Democrats... (3+ / 0-)

    ...support this stuff.

    Stop the NRA and the NSA
    Repeal the Patriot Act and the 2nd Amendment

    by dream weaver on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:30:04 AM PDT

    •  all Obama has to do is say he's trying to (6+ / 0-)

      meet republicans half way, and support will drop.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:39:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So true. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dream weaver, Egalitare

        Putting the fun back in dysfunctional.

        by hawkseye on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:49:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think there was a similar dynamic... (0+ / 0-)

        ...with respect to marriage equality.

        This is why I disagreed so vehemently with those who argued that I didn't matter that the President didn't (at the time) support marriage equality.

        Folks said that for the President to come out in favor of marriage equality would be mere "lip service".

        But I think that such an attitude fails to take into account just how powerful such "lip service" can be.

        I remember when the Iowa Supreme Court came out unanimously (7-0) in favor of Marriage Equality in Varnum v Brian in 2009.

        The very next day, the Govornor of Iowa and Senator Harkin did the same.

        So did lots of ordinary folks around here.

        It was like they suddenly had received permission to do the right thing.

        I also noticed the same thing happen (mostly online, since it was much later) when the President's position "evolved" to full support of Marriage Equality.

        At thst time, in any number of internet forums in which I post or follow, folks who had up until then been only able to bring themselves to support some second class institution such as Civil Unions (and who actively bashed folks who supported full Marriage Equality), were suddenly coming out vigorously in favor of full Marriage Equality.

        Again, it seemed as if they needed the cover of some authority figure to validate the position prior to them adopting it.

        I'm not sure if polls actually bear this out, but this is definitely the impression that I got from my own experience.

        Stop the NRA and the NSA
        Repeal the Patriot Act and the 2nd Amendment

        by dream weaver on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 07:27:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Admittedly much of it is tribal (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SoCalSal, Sixty Something, glynis

      "Our guy" is running the show, so we're sorta okay with it.

      But I like to think more of it is respect for rule of law. The previous Administration bypassed the FISA Court, and the Pelosi-led House made it clear that oversight was a red lne. This Administration is using the FISA Court. Yes, it's apparently more rubber stamp than anything approaching what is normally thought of as effectively deliberative.

      We're always going to get the balance between privacy and  reasonable monitoring "off" for some large portion of our population. I am an advocate of video surveillance of parking lots, entry ways and hallways in our schools. Some people consider that an invasion of privacy. I am resigned to agree to disagree with those people forever . I fully understand why some people feel that I am enabling totalitarianism for taking my position. I had the benefit of working under a Principal who used the video as a teaching tool ("See, this is was your poor choice. You need to make better choices than this.") rather than as an instrument of instant, summary punishment, so I plead guilty to wearing rose colored glasses on that.

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:01:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes in my sunday piece (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Egalitare, glynis

        I noted the difference between without a court order (2006 polling) and with (2013, even if it's a FISA court)... that means something to people.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:53:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think the reason more Dems are okay with (0+ / 0-)

      it is because it has been repeated on the left that the government is really here to help and Republicans don't believe that no matter what. They are naturally skeptical of government in any form because Ronnie said "Government is the problem" while democrats want more government. Now the right seems to be arguing 'you want more government that can spy' and we must be saying yes, it's okay according to that poll.

  •  Maybe, just maybe the national disscusion on the (4+ / 0-)

    security state is more reasonable b/c we have a reasonable president.

  •  I wonder if there is any old polling data on... (0+ / 0-)

    ...COINTELPRO.

    It would be fascinating to compare the results.

    Stop the NRA and the NSA
    Repeal the Patriot Act and the 2nd Amendment

    by dream weaver on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:43:26 AM PDT

  •  Lady Godivas (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    One Opinion, I love OCD

    We don't want the government to know what anybody with a modicum of hacking skills could know anyway. Most people are having the wrong conversation. We're all riding around buck naked but we don't want anybody to look.

    These are the days of miracle and wonder
    This is the long distance call
    The way the camera follows us in slo-mo
    The way we look to us all

    We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance.

    by PowWowPollock on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:48:15 AM PDT

  •  Donna Brazile: Obama gets low marks (4+ / 0-)

    for trying to bridge the divide in America.

    http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/...

    Yes, his failure to totally capitulate to an implaccable opposition is certainly blameworthy.

    http://www.buonoforgovernor.com/

    by Paleo on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:49:37 AM PDT

  •   Let's face it... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Superskepticalman

    ...re the WP poll, had this story reached prominence when Bush was president, the results would be reversed. The numbers are more about the hardening of battle lines than introspection about surveillance.

    "There is no room for injustice anywhere in the American mansion." Lyndon Johnson

    by pkgoode on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:09:24 AM PDT

  •  Gerson column (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude, I love OCD

    Michael Gerson assumes rationality when there is none in evidence and gives no shrift whatsoever to the nativism and anti-intellectualism that plagues the Republican party. He writes platitudes about conservative "principles" and but ignores the context of failed policies.

    And he ignores the past: Conservatives are bitter-enders whose anger and resentment increases the more they are on the wrong side of history and demographics. In the end, they'd always rather be right.

    "There is no room for injustice anywhere in the American mansion." Lyndon Johnson

    by pkgoode on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:41:50 AM PDT

  •  well (0+ / 0-)
    Religious conservatives, for example, are the single largest constituency within the GOP, and compose about a quarter of the entire electorate. Such voters are not baggage thrown overboard to lighten the ship; they are planks in the hull.
    If you are still constructing your "hull" out of planks.....your time has past
  •  I consider it excellent progress that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Greg Dworkin

    half the respondents are aware of the NSA and a majority want open hearings.  I think that number will increase, and that more people might begin to wonder if corporate data accumulation is more benign than government data accumulation or if both should be in the discussion.  

    If privacy is the concern, both should be examined.  If scary stories about the government are the main concern this will end up fading into nothing, like Benghazi and the IRS "scandals".  

    I hope the Patriot Act becomes the story, and the focus shifts to the illusion of safety vs the rights of citizens.  That's the question here, which is being lost in pie fights and fear-mongering.  

    If Snowden is a paid Chinese shill, I guarantee this will never become a national conversation about the core issues unless we stop making it about noble whistle blowers vs ebil government.  

    I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

    by I love OCD on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 08:13:02 AM PDT

  •  you know what..... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Greg Dworkin

    we're overloaded with charts, exposes', revelations, sins, and crime.  everyday there is another one........

    what we need instead are solutions. guides. a path.  a how to fix the problems, starting at the very basic level of convincing the guy next door.  we need to feel like there is a way to re-boot the system at all.  cause most of us out here stuck in the confederacy have lost hope.  there is a church on every corner, a community school where teachers who know better are afraid of losing their job if they rock the boat,  a town council who knows which side of their bread is buttered and by whom.  a state legislature with kochroach funded small bidnessmen who know nothing except how to get elected and who to suck up to, to keep that spot.  gerrymandering run amok, with little to no chance of being overturned.  and the higher up the food chain we look the more hopeless we feel.  the whole system is rigged, we know it. rubbing our noses in it doesn't help. that's why we tune out, why we watch the cooking channel, and why you can't get us to tilt at your windmills.

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