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That's what this forced birther stuff is all about.
Make them own it.
Make them explain it.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (9+ / 0-)

    Ask me how Obamacare has helped my family.

    by cosette on Wed Jun 26, 2013 at 11:27:47 PM PDT

  •  Prove that... (12+ / 0-) have a soul and then maybe we could start talking about if a group of cells have a soul.

    Hell I could just be a brain in a jar being fed sensory impulses ala star trek for all I know.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Wed Jun 26, 2013 at 11:45:14 PM PDT

    •  Who claims that I, or anyone, has a soul? (4+ / 0-)

      Sounds like magic.

      Ask me how Obamacare has helped my family.

      by cosette on Wed Jun 26, 2013 at 11:50:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A soul is the essence of a life (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Heavy Mettle, Fishtroller01

        I'd be happy to argue that its not magic, or religion that is the essence of life, but rather what the life is all about.

        I have no problem allowing that the essence of the life of a human fetus is roughly equivalent to the essence of the life of a tadpole or any other equivalent collection of cells.

        Now maybe it could be countered that a human fetus has more potential life than a tadpole just by being likely to live longer. Ok, lets allow the essence of its potential life is equivalent to the potential life of a turtle.

        Someone that chose to be argumentative might say no, no no; human life has the potential of intelligence, and that is combined with opposable thumbs, the ability to walk upright, and talk. Well I'd be willing to admit humans have some great adaptations but what about robots; they can do all the stuff we do, are wicked smart and now can fly in formation.

        Pretty much whatever you chose to say about humans and the potential essence of their lives can be said about the potential essence of other flora and fauna, stem cells; collections of raw materials of any nature; and we are about to discover just how amazing the life cycle of the star stuff we are made of really is, right before we allow our anthropogenic climate change to make the whole discussion moot.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 01:54:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think the name on the jar was Abby Normal? (7+ / 0-)

      Living the austerity dream.

      by jwinIL14 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 at 11:52:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  20 000 Quatloos for the strangers fetus (0+ / 0-)

      Obviously, I would have to up that to several hundred thousand quatloos for the fetus' soul!

      a new Rick Perry Texas Tagline? - Texas, turning women into Thralls for the future!

      "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

      by josephk on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 06:42:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, that is NOT what it is about (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      martydd, Batya the Toon

      There are so many things they would be doing differently if it were really about a sincere belief that a fetus has a "soul," whatever that is. It is about fear of and contempt for women and a desire to punish them for having "bad" sex – or in some cases any sex at all.

      And since the issue of the "soul" is an abstract, religious one, if this were the basis, the argument would be dead on a civil level. You cannot legislate a belief about the "soul."

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it.

      by anastasia p on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 07:32:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Cogito (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      delver rootnose

      Ergo Sum. :)

      One cat away from crazy.

      by IamGumby on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 10:22:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why oh why does injecting the word masturbation (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jlms qkw, Shockwave, Kevskos

    into the fetus conversation have a Karl Rove smell to it?  Yep, I thought so.

    Living the austerity dream.

    by jwinIL14 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 at 11:46:31 PM PDT

  •  the more interesting question might be (9+ / 0-)

    do women?

  •  Oh and BTW... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    play jurist, corvo, Kevskos

    ...they would answer yes in a heartbeat and be proud to own it.  It does not diminish their argument one whit.  I mean to people who say words in a book about a story that is over 2000 years old and much edited is 'TRUTH' and 'FACT' have no problem with cognitive dissonance.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Wed Jun 26, 2013 at 11:47:56 PM PDT

    •  no doubt. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Just Bob, radarlady, corvo

      posted somewhere was a picture that said "This Is Not A Human Being" under an image of a tiny embryo

      (had a cute little tail, too.)

      other than a large head

      sure seemed at first glance, to me, anyway --

      (it's been one of those days.)

      @Hugh: There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution. * Addington's perpwalk? TRAILHEAD of accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

      by greenbird on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 12:00:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  lgf has a promoted post (0+ / 0-)

    saying that the only purpose of this bill is to pass so that it can challenge roe v wade.  

    aren't there enough crazy anti-women laws on the books to do that already?  like virginia?  wisconsin?  mississippi?  

    Ted Kennedy: “The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die…”

    by jlms qkw on Wed Jun 26, 2013 at 11:48:30 PM PDT

  •  Not all Christians believe that a fetus has a soul (8+ / 0-)

    Among Christians, there is uncertainty regarding whether human embryos have souls, and at what point between conception and birth the fetus acquires a soul and consciousness. This uncertainty is the general reasoning behind many Christians' belief that abortion should not be legal.[54][55][56]
    Then again different religions have different versions;
    According to some religions (including the Abrahamic religions in most of their forms), souls—or at least immortal souls capable of union with the divine[2]—belong only to human beings. For example, the Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas attributed "soul" (anima) to all organisms but taught that only human souls are immortal.[3] Other religions (most notably Jainism) teach that all biological organisms have souls, and others further still that non-biological entities (such as rivers and mountains) possess souls. This latter belief is called animism.[4] Anima mundi and the Dharmic Ātman are concepts of a "world soul."
    The fastest growing religious designation in the US is"no religion"
    Reuters describes how a study profiling the "no religion" demographic found that the so-called "nones", at least in the U.S., are the fastest growing religious affiliation category.[34] This group consists of 33% agnostics, 33% theists, and 10% atheists.[1] A 2012 study by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life reports, "The number of Americans who do not identify with any religion continues to grow at a rapid pace. One-fifth of the U.S. public – and a third of adults under 30 – are religiously unaffiliated today, the highest percentages ever in Pew Research Center polling."[2]
    I fall into the "nones" religion and I don't believe souls exist.

    Any law based on religion is against the US Constitution.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Wed Jun 26, 2013 at 11:51:43 PM PDT

  •  Theologian's answers (3+ / 0-)

    Ensoulment happens 40 days after conception, or 80 days after, depending on whether it's a boy or a girl. That's from Thomas Aquinas. There are doubtless many other contradictory answers out there.

    This strikes me as bad ground to choose for a debate, though -- it invites the response of "If we're not sure, we don't dare allow abortions!".

    Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

    by Dogs are fuzzy on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 12:16:39 AM PDT

  •  Never mind the soul, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Deward Hastings, marsanges, corvo

    Adam wasn't alive until hill breathed. If we are looking for such things in scripture.

    This space for lease

    by Drewid on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 12:23:25 AM PDT

  •  It doesn't matter (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marsanges, sewaneepat, corvo

    We have separation of church and state in our Bill of Rights. Abortion is a matter of law; the existence (or not) and nature (What if Christianity has it all wrong, and, Hinduism  is it right that souls are reincarnated?) of the soul is a purely religious debate. As much as the Religious Right has tried to muddy the waters, the question of the soul is an extra-legal one.


    •  The question might affect people's opinions (3+ / 0-)

      Some of those people would be voters. Their votes would affect secular elections. The officials they help elect will make the law.

      Cosette is talking about how to debate voters, if I understand her correctly.

      Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 02:25:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The question is on the forced-birther's turf (6+ / 0-)

        We need to move the issue away from a question of religion and into the realm of politics. By immediately bringing up the soul in the context of abortion, we've already accepted the Religious Right's frame of the issue, and we can't win if we start there. My point is to shift the frame to a secular, constitutional one.


      •  You certainly cannot debate voters (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        on obscure and disputed points of abstract theology. These are passionate articles of FAITH which means you believe without any rational reasons. Losers' game. And there's nothing  in the anti-choice movement that's about "souls" anyway.

        Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it.

        by anastasia p on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 07:38:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If by soul you mean consciousness or awareness... (3+ / 0-)

    ...I'd first want to distinguish between the zygote right after conception and a fetus one hour before birth.  The former, no; the latter, yes.

    What would Mothra do?

    by dov12348 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 01:54:57 AM PDT

  •  it is irrelevant whether the fetus has a soul (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, martydd, IamGumby

    yes most forced birthers believe the fetus has a soul, and abortion ends a human life.

    but here are some other endings of a human life that they approve of:

    A comes home from work to find B in bed with his wife and A shoots and kills B.

    C is in his home at night and hears a noise, goes downstairs to find D rummaging through his belongings, and C shoots and kills D.

    E is at war and believes F hates him for his freedoms, and E shoots and kills F.

    Z is following T for doing nothing more than walking in his neighborhood while talking on the phone carrying candy and tea, and Z shoots and kills T.

    i believe the fetus has a soul.  I even believe abortion is the taking of a human life.  but i also believe that no woman should be forced by the government to gestate a baby in her body against her will.  it's her decision, in consultation with her doctor and her own sense of what is right and necessary.

    so it is irrelevant whether a fetus has a soul.

    believing a fetus has a soul is not the definition of being a forced birther.

    forcing women to give birth against their will is the definition.

    forced birthers advocate laws creating government control over women's lives.  total hypocrisy, since in so many other areas they scream about the government having too much power.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 03:15:34 AM PDT

  •  if they wish to go biblical, the OT tends to view (5+ / 0-)

    the fetus as having a soul only after "quickening".  The Lifers have rallied around this term, coined by shepherds some 3700 years ago, as the definitive statement on when the soul enters the body.  Problem is that they have been trying to use modern tech to push the concept of quickening to earlier and earlier.  I think that First Century Christians would have viewed quickening as occurring at about 6 months into gestation, unless someone can cite text that would suggest an earlier date.

    Of course, this assumes that there is such a thing as a soul and current law recognizes no such beastie

    •  Comment upthread (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      says something about ensoulment happening at 40 days (for boys) or 80 for girls according to Thomas Aquinas.  6 weeks, which seems to be the most popular timing for lots of new ban bills, is 42 days.  Seems to me that they're trying to find various faux sciencey reasons to hit that 40 days target.

      •  irony is that most of those attempting to use (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ivorybill, Kevskos

        Aquinas would not accept Scholasticism as a valid form of inquiry, esp, its emphasis on Aristotle and the Neo-Platonists (since they were pagans).

        OTOH Ultra-Conservative Protestants are now finding common ground with Ultra Conservative Catholics where only a few years ago, the Papists were denounced form the pulpit as idolators and the Pope as the Anti-Christ

  •  Not Till Several Weeks After Birth (0+ / 0-)

    when it's safe to Christen them.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 05:22:06 AM PDT

  •  Ensoulment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    When they say "Abortion is Murder Because Life Begins at Conception" what they really mean is that a Fetus is an Individual with a Soul from the moment of Conception.  Only they don't want to say that because "Ensoulment" sounds like theological jargon, (well, it is), and because, as many of the previous comments have observed, it's something that theologians have disagreed about.

    "Life", however, sounds like something everyone can understand, not a bunch of mumbo-jumbo like "Ensoulment."    It's even scientific!  Science shows that the Fetus is Alive!  As if an egg or a wriggling little sperm cell is dead.

    Perhaps more importantly, "Life" is something they can get a judge to rule in favor of,  Granted, I'm sure Justice Alito would be happy to rule on the existence of a soul, but some judges want evidence of a little more substance.

    Personally, I believe in the existence of the soul, but I think the question of when a person's soul comes into existence is unknowable.  I can understand the point of view which states that we should give the soul the benefit of the doubt and assume it's there at the earliest point; but I wish they'd be honest about it rather than pretending that they're talking about "Life".

    Because there is disagreement over the nature, the point of origin, and even the existence of the soul, the sensible thing would be to leave the matter of abortion to the woman and her own conscience.

    The least sensible thing would be to go to Rick Perry for pronouncements of theology.

    "All the World's a Stage and Everyone's a Critic." -- Mervyn Alquist

    by quarkstomper on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 05:42:38 AM PDT

  •  Let's not have this discussion. n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kevskos, delver rootnose

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 06:17:10 AM PDT

  •  wrong point to focus on. my body is sovereign (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    martydd, claude, Hammerhand

    don't let those who would deny a woman the sovereign to control how her body is used and who benefits from it, control the talking points.

    Here is my facebook post from yesterday:

    I can't stand that debates about whether women can get abortions focus on whether a fetus is this or that. Or whether a fetus has rights.

    The question is one of a woman having the right of sovereignty over her own body.

    If my sister needs a kidney to survive and I'm the only match, I am not obligated to provide it. I probably would, but it is my right to deny her this life-preserving part of my body, regardless of whether I'm healthy enough, it's low-risk or whatever other measures want to be taken. My sister has a right to life, to be sure. But, she doesn't have a right to my body. No one has the right to use my body without my consent. Even a fetus. Even it means that denying my body to that fetus will deprive the fetus of life.

    And keep your religious perspective out of it when it comes to me. I don't, for one second, believe that you have any better relationship to, understanding of or message system from, some metaphysical being than I do. So, believe what you want, but your beliefs don't have to be mine and your beliefs do not erase my sovereign right to control my body.

    End rant.

    Message from the emergency broadcast system: rant likely to be heard again at unspecified future dates.

  •   i wonder if that is the real issue. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anastasia p, claude

    After all the unborn are innocent even of original sin.  Therefore, Therefore they are favoured by God, and have a free pass to heaven--which can't be that bad.  From the soul's point of view, abortion would seem to be a good thing.

    I think the ugly truth is that having a baby is seen as the proper consequence of sex, and that the woman must pay for her concupiscence--more or less in proportion to her adherence to the rules.  No husband, much more,  bad husband -  more, good "Christian" husband-less.

    My understanding of this framework does not mean I think it is right.  But that is my take on the religious right's thinking

    •  That is correct (0+ / 0-)

      It's about punishing women for having sex. Go back and look at the arguments the Catholic Church made when this first became a big issue for them in the late 1800s. A large part of  that was based on the part in Genesis where Eve is told because she sinned she would have children "in sorrow," as it's usually translated. They said women who have sex must be punished by enduring childbirth. All this airy-fairy soul stuff doesn't remotely figure in.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it.

      by anastasia p on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 07:35:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  absolutely the case. (0+ / 0-)

      Behind the smokescreen of "dead babies" hides the real agenda: fear and hatred of a woman's sovereignty and the need to punish her for the "sin" of unlicensed sex.  This has always been the agenda behind the forced birth movement, and anyone who doesn't realize that is, imho, a fool.

      don't always believe what you think

      by claude on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 08:11:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What is a "soul"? (0+ / 0-)

    Might be a good starting point for this discussion to see if we have any consensus on exactly what is a "soul".

    don't always believe what you think

    by claude on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 07:28:43 AM PDT

  •  I don't give a rats ass if a fetus has a soul. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    claude, delver rootnose

    I have a body.  And it's mine.  

    My dogs think I'm smart and pretty.

    by martydd on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 07:52:00 AM PDT

  •  they can't prove anyone has a soul (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    let alone a fetus.   Why argue on their messed up turf?

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