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Yesterday I heard someone on Chris Mathews ask, "when did Zimmerman remove the safety on his gun?".  That got me thinking about how in the world was Zimmerman able to wrestle the gun away from Martin while he was laying on his back with Martin on top of him?  The more I thought about trying to remove a gun from a holster on your waste, and more toward your back, while a big teenager was sitting on you, the more it doesn't make any sense at all.

Remember that Zimmerman claims that Martin saw the gun and was going for it, and yet Zimmerman had the strength to reach behind him and out wrestle Martin for the gun.

Try this; Lay on the floor, with your shoulders flat on the ground like Zimmerman claims, try pulling something out of your back pocket.  Now have someone sit on your stomach and try it.  Look what happens to your elbow when you try this motion.

I believe this is the strongest evidence I've seen that Zimmerman is clearly lying about the events of that night.  I also think it is completely negligent for the prosecution not to emphasize this nearly impossible event.

I was going to write a big diary about this, but GLB3 has written an excellent diary the Zimmerman Draw. If you're interested in this trial, I strongly urge you to read this diary.

I have to admit that I was pretty strongly leaning to a manslaughter conviction, if the judge allows it, but after thinking about how Zimmerman could out wrestle Martin for a gun that was behind his back while he was laying flat on his back, I have to conclude Zimmerman is lying about the most important part of his story.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Zimmerman lied? (4+ / 0-)

    Say it ain't so!

    Orwell was an optimist.
    My Home Page

    by RepackRider on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 07:42:37 AM PDT

  •  Plus, only Zimmerman's fingerprints and stuff (8+ / 0-)

    are on the gun.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 07:50:15 AM PDT

    •  No identifiable fingerprints were found (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnny wurster

      Yesterday they had a latent-fingerprint expert testifying that she did not find Trayvon's fingerprints on the gun.  She also could not identify Zimmerman's fingerprints on the gun either, even though Zimmerman admits to handling and firing the gun.

      So basically the testimony does not confirm that Trayvon handled the gun, but it cannot absolutely rule it out either (realistically, you can't prove a negative in this fashion, but you can create doubt in a juror's mind).

  •  Answer ...... (12+ / 0-)

    before he confronted Martin he had already drawn it and had it in his hand.

    Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

    by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 07:55:26 AM PDT

    •  That could be, but everything is still very (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      worldlotus, pollwatcher

      confusing.

      It seems unlikely that you would hit someone in the nose who was holding a gun on you.

      I'm still trying to figure out when/how the gun was pulled.  Clearly, it was NOT the way GZ described it.

      All fight-related injuries seem to be on GZ, none on Trayvon. GZ was trained in mixed Martial Arts (MMA). Why didn't he fight back more effectively?

      Perhaps because he had a gun he didn't need to punch.

      The closest witness, John Good, did see TM on top of GZ but left to call 911 before those final, plaintive screams on the lady's 911 call.

      Perhaps GZ did an MMA flip on TM after Good went inside, pulled the gun and shot.

      Some people fight fire with fire. Professionals use water.

      by Happy Days on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 08:18:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe he slid in the grass and hit his nose, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        emsprater, worldlotus, peglyn

        maybe it was self inflicted, maybe Trayvon got in a good punch before he was murdered. If Zimmerman had not pursued Martin, he would have gone back to the house and ate his candy and watched television or played video games or texted on his phone and woke up the next morning. He was not doing anything wrong and Zimmerman is just another bully cop wannabe ass. You remember that a man in Florida shot into a car of teenaged boys because the music was too loud, killing one of them? This is dangerous and shaky ground when the citizens of this country think they can shoot one another without consequences.

      •  I'm still not sure .... (0+ / 0-)

        Martin  struck Zimmerman in the nose, injuries or not.  Even so, your presumption would presume that Martin was able to 'see' the gun.  Zimmerman was wearing a jacket and could most likely have had the gun in hand and hand covered by the jacket.

        Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

        by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 08:50:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps we will someday discover (0+ / 0-)

          Trayvon got in one good punch and then Zimmerman shot him-- not out of self-defense, but out of humiliation and rage. But we're unlikely to ever know what really happened. Zimmerman will be acquitted because prosecution won't be able to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

      •  The ballistics report shows that... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster

        TM's hoodie was separated from his body by a few inches. If he was on his back when shot, this would not be the case.

        If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

        by HairyTrueMan on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 08:50:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Unless Zimmerman (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          amsterdam

          had clenched his other hand on the clothing and pulled it away from Martin as he sat atop of him, which is entirely possible if one person was trying to push another off him and the other was grabbing at anything to try to maintain control.  That also could explain the blood on Zimmerman's head appearing to trickle towards his face.

          Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

          by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 08:59:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's possible. (0+ / 0-)

            But why would someone on top pull on the bottom person's clothing in an attempt to stay on top? Downward pressure would be the way to go in that situation, not pulling.

            If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

            by HairyTrueMan on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:05:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Anything is possible if there (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              HairyTrueMan

              really was a physical altercation.  That's one of the many items that makes me doubt Zimmerman's detailed account: in the heat of such a confrontation, no one can really say where their hands are the entire time, let alone where the other party's hands were, or how many punches were thrown or how many blows were taken.  It. just. doesn't .add. up.

              Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

              by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:10:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree that anything is possible. (0+ / 0-)

                But the only (living) person who witnessed the whole thing is George Zimmerman.

                The jury will make a conclusion, factoring whether or not they believe GZ's statements, the ballistics report and the ME's report.

                If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                by HairyTrueMan on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:48:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  About the blood (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            johnny wurster

            Zimmerman has already said that after he fired the shot that he got on top of Trayvon, which could account for the blood trickling towards his face.

            And your explanation for the hoodie doesn't make sense to me.  Zimmerman might have had a handful of the hoodie to maintain control, but he would be pushing Trayvon down , and so I'm not sure you would see the equivalent of a gap of several inches between the hoodie and Trayvon's chest.

            Maybe we need a better re-creation to show how the physics of some of this would work.

            •  In a physical altercation ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              amsterdam

              both sides push, pull, strike out and grab at anything and everything within reach in my experience.  I think way too much credit is being given to that space between Martin's clothing and his skin.  In this case, it could just be a lucky grab for Zimmerman that is being misinterpreted to his credit, unfortunately.

              I'm still wondering why there was none of Zimmerman's blood on Martin if he was on top that long and bleeding in such a manner.  It's not consistent with any assault victim I've ever seen during my 20+ years of EMS.

              Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

              by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:23:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Zimmerman wasn't bleeding that much (0+ / 0-)

                And with the rain maybe even if there was a drop or two of blood it might have gotten washed away.

                Do we know how long Zimmerman claimed to be on top after the fight?  I don't remember, but my impression is that he was only on top very briefly before more people showed up and he stood up.

                •  Any significant amount of rain ... (0+ / 0-)

                  would make it all the more likely that some trace evidence of Zimmerman's blood would be somewhere on Martin's body.

                  Just sayin'.  Rain will not wash every trace of DNA out of fibers of clothing.

                  Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                  by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:32:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do you know much about DNA testing? (0+ / 0-)

                    Not a snark question.  I am uncertain about something about it.

                    My understanding that for DNA testing you would look for a specific substance like a hair or a stain.  You would not simply take something like a hoodie or pants and somehow analyze the whole thing to find bit a stray bit of DNA.

                    Am I wrong in that understanding?

                    •  You might be right, but ... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Dirk McQuigley

                      try wetting a piece of clothing (as if it were wet by rain), prick your own finger and let a drop of blood drip onto the wet clothing.  The get a sprinkling can and 'rain' on the clothing and tell me the blood was washed away.  There are specific spectrums of light that are used on clothing forensically to look for missed ( not visible to the everyday eye) traces of blood and semen.  My theory is that any blood from Zimmerman, if it had ever come in contact with Martin's clothing or body, would have been detected.

                      And, no, I am not a DNA testing person.  But I find it odd they can build a DNA database from saliva swabs yet there's a claim that a light rain ( it was no downpour that night) would have washed away blood from clothing.

                      Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                      by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:44:14 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  There was extensive DNA testing (0+ / 0-)

                    done on their clothing. If you go to near the bottom of this page you can see exactly where blood was found and who it belonged to.

                    They also tested Trayvon's sleeves and cuffs and his fingernails for GZ DNA. No DNA foreign to Trayvon was found.

                    •  Testimony on Wednesday ... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Nova Land

                      after I made my comment shows the DNA expert stating that Zimmerman's DNA was found among blood on Martin's shirt worn under his hoodie.

                      Of course, the defense is disputing the evidence.

                      Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                      by emsprater on Thu Jul 04, 2013 at 04:41:16 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yep (0+ / 0-)

                        That spot is most likely a transfer spot, put there when GZ was frisking Trayvon while he was face down after he died.

                        They found a bloodstain that is probably from Trayvon on the cuff of GZ's right sleeve. They found GZ's blood on the grip of his gun. I think he frisked him with his right hand, transferring his blood on Trayvon's shirt and picking up Trayvon's blood on his right cuff at the same time.

                        •  'Frisked him' ...... (0+ / 0-)

                          but claimed he didn't 'know' Martin was dead, acted 'surprised' at the news, right on cue for someone who has his training in police 'work' .

                          Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                          by emsprater on Thu Jul 04, 2013 at 01:56:26 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  The holes in the shirts (0+ / 0-)

            were 4 inches higher and 1 inch to the left of the entrance wound in the chest. The holes in the shirt were underneath the photobutton, but the photobutton was not damaged.

            The misalignment can be explained if GZ pulled both of Trayvon's shirt down with his left hand while shooting him with his right. He must also have nudged the photobutton to the side with his gun, in order for the shot to be under the photobutton.

      •  I think GZ used an MMA technique (0+ / 0-)

        to force Trayvon to the ground. He may have banged his head in the process.

  •  he's a big fat liar. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leonard145b, amsterdam

    anyone can see that his story just doesn't add up.  

    Loving me some Obama right about now... Economy is improving, he is moving forward, just like he said... and Michele Obama, oh my... Awesome!

    by titotitotito on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 07:57:37 AM PDT

  •  A slide tackle puts the victim on top. I have (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Happy Days, emsprater

    a video that shows a slide tackle gone wrong. The tackler has injuries just like Zimmerman.

    They said Martin punched Zimmerman. 25-30 times. I looked up Muhammad Ali's punching speed. Someone said it was about 30-35 punches in 11 seconds.

    Zimmerman made up the whole story nothing fits.

    Plus another video was posted that said Martin was on the phone when he was supposed be doing this attacking.

    •  not totally (5+ / 0-)

      Witnesses have said they saw the two of them fighting and Trayvon was on top of him. Now none of these witnesses can say how the fight started though.
      The prosecution is either incompetent or will have a great closing. This is a case that is almost impossible to prove since the victim is dead , the defendant makes himself look like the victim and the only witnesses can't really say what happened.

    •  A good job reconstructing the timeline would help (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      88kathy, emsprater

      the prosecution. I hope they are able to do it. (I have been shocked by their ineptness so far, though.)

      Some people fight fire with fire. Professionals use water.

      by Happy Days on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 08:25:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is what they claim to have (0+ / 0-)

        In their opening statement. John Guy said all the witnesses saw dífferent pieces of what happened. John Good watched at the beginning of the altercation. Three other witnesses saw him, because they looked outside at the same time. One of them said they were upright. Two of them describe what they did between seeing John and hearing the shot. That is how the prosecution can show John watched the very beginning, and he may have been watching as they came down to the ground.

  •  Yes to all of the above, but does the jury know it (4+ / 0-)

    The Jury needs to believe that Martin lied about a key point in his story.  I really believe that if the jury saw how extremely difficult it would be to even remove a gun with your shoulders and back pinned to the ground, much less out wrestle a big teenager for it, I think the prosecution could win this case.

  •  People keep trying to point out logic and facts (4+ / 0-)

    But they keep forgetting that it's Florida, where that crap doesn't matter. You want the best method of reasoning out what verdict will come in? Ask a Magic 8-Ball, it will make as much sense as Florida laws and a jury.

    "Use the Force, Harry!" - Gandalf

    by Fordmandalay on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 08:16:14 AM PDT

  •  Here is the answer for Chris Matthews. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster
    It weighs about 12 oz. unloaded, has a five-pound trigger pull and has an automatic hammer block safety, which prevents it from firing when dropped. It is also “double-action only,” which means the trigger must be pulled fully in order to fire.

    http://newsfeed.time.com/...

    There's no safety to release; You simply need to pull the trigger hard enough.

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 08:23:29 AM PDT

    •  I'm surprised that anyone ... (0+ / 0-)

      weighing closer to 200 lbs who could be knocked off their feet by the alleged sucker punch from a 158 lb kid could actually have the ability to pull a 5 lb trigger.

      Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

      by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:02:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If taken by surprise it would be fairly easy (0+ / 0-)

        If you can brace yourself then the extra weight may be an advantage, but if taken by surprise it's a whole new ballgame.

        •  It's hard to be ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          amsterdam

          'taken by surprise' when you are actively following and watching someone.

          Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

          by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:24:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not really (0+ / 0-)

            You can get sucker punched by someone you are talking to.  If you're not properly prepared to receive a blow then you could easily get knocked off your feet, especially if you're on a slippery surface.

            We also do not know how strong Trayvon was.  Weight can give us some idea of strength, but that can very greatly.

            •  Not buying what you are selling. Sorry. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              amsterdam

              Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

              by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:34:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not buying what I'm selling? (0+ / 0-)

                I'm just pointing out that you can indeed get knocked down by a smaller person who sucker punches you.  You don't believe that?

                Heck, you can even get knocked off your feet if it wasn't a surprise punch, if you're unlucky or caught in a bad position/balance, or simply can't take a punch very well.  None of what I am saying is particularly controversial.  It also doesn't really say what happened in this incident, except to say that Zimmerman's version of that part of the event is not impossible.

                •  Hasn't it been reported .. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  amsterdam

                  that Zimmerman has MMA training to some degree?  How does such a person get 'surprised', especially when they are actively following and watching the person supposedly doing the 'surprising'?

                  Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                  by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:51:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, he could be incompetent/inexperienced (0+ / 0-)

                    It doesn't sound like Zimmerman has been in many actual fights, or has the proper training and knowledge to follow a suspect.  What he did was pretty foolish (what if Trayvon had a gun?) and so I would not rule out Zimmerman generally being pretty incompetent.

                    My guess is that they were in a verbal argument and one of the two started the fight, at which point Trayvon knocked Zimmerman down and got on top.  Zimmerman's story about being rushed from out of the darkness would be a lie to make himself seem more innocent.  But that's just a guess, and I know of no evidence that makes the sucker punch scenario impossible.

                  •  It really sounds (0+ / 0-)

                    like he is an MMA 'wannabe' just as he wanted to be law enforcement and was proven to be physically, intellectually and emotionally unsuited for that.

                    There are always guys who hang around the gym.

                    I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

                    by trumpeter on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 10:10:03 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Boxers and MMA (0+ / 0-)

                    Professionals get knocked out everyday in the ring.  Your point that a skilled fighter can't get caught and surprised by a strike is absurd.

                    •  Surprised ... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      amsterdam

                      by a strike from a teenager who he is actively following and watching.

                      I don't buy it.

                      Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                      by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 02:05:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  So he jumped out of the bushes and said what's (0+ / 0-)

          Your problem, homey? Almost nothing GZ has said is truthful.

      •  Adrenaline (0+ / 0-)

        does strange things.

        I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

        by trumpeter on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 10:08:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Great point on the draw... (5+ / 0-)

    and Zimmer said with Trayvon straddling him, while on his back, he tried to sit up.  No way would someone with  human instincts much less MMA training  try to sit up.  Looking at Zimmerman, I doubt if he could do ONE sit up unencumbered, let alone with someone on him.  In that situation you would roll to one side or the other.  Only someone pulling a story from their ass would say that he was trying to sit up.  He didn't experience what he said or his explanation wouldn't have gone this way.  He really didn't think that through.  Also, Trayvon jumped out of the non-existent bushes.  He blurted that out without even panning the area to see that no bushes were around.  His counsel said he was pummeled 20 or 25 times in the face while Trayvon straddled him.  Where are the injuries?  Any time I have punched or got punched or witnessed the same since I was in jr. high, the blood flowed, or faces were cut requiring stitches, or noses and jaws were broken or  teeth got knocked out or eyes were blackened and swollen shut or people were KOed.  These instances usually involved one or two pops.  Zimmerman's and his lawyer's explanation were almost cartoonish like when  Wyle E. Coyote gets hit with as anvil only to return the next scene no worse for the wear.

    •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

      When a fighter is "mounted", the fighter on top tries to create as much distance from the fighter below so he can strike successfully.  The fighter on the bottom will try to hold on to the fighter on top, either hugging him down or to attempt to sit up, closing the distance so strikes can't be made.  MMA fighting 101.

  •  If Martin was astride Zimmermann (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    How is it that Martin was face down on the grass after being killed with a single bullet to the chest?  How is it that Zimmermann was able to climb out from under Martin without getting a lot of Martin's blood all over him?  
    What kind of injuries did Martin have before he was shot?  Did Zimmermann pistol-whip Martin before he shot him?  Even if they were standing there face-to-face and Zimmermann shot Martin in the chest without provocation, wouldn't Martin fall forward onto his face?  

    •  There were NO injuries on Martin, other than the (0+ / 0-)

      Gun shot wound.  If Martin was shot while on top, GZ could have EASILY shimmied himself out from under TM without turning Martin over (assuming Martin had fallen forward after being shot)

  •  That is just one of the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nova Land

    many inconsistencies in his story. The media never gave any attention to them, but the jury will be getting this kind of information.
    GZ's friend, Mark Osterman testified yesterday. He had witten a book, in which he claims to tell the entire story as told to him by GZ, while driving GZ home from the police station that night.

    GZ always got very vague or claimed memory loss when specific questions were asked, such as " how did you manage to unholster your gun, while Trayvon was sitting on top of you.

    Osterman added some interesting details, like Trayvon actually getting a hold of the gun, and GZ heroically wrestling it from Trayvon's hands. So the prosecution followed it up today with the DNA evidence. Of course there was no DNA from Trayvon on that gun, and no GZ DNA under Trayvon's fingernails or on his cuffs or lower sleeves. Actually there was no blood from GZ on Trayvon's hoody.

    And the ME called GZ's injuries insignificant and that the injuries to the back of his head were consistent with one time impact to the head.

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