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For many months I have been hearing about how the Morsi govt was permitting (by benign neglect/inaction) the systematic murder of Egyptian Coptic Christians and the burning of Egyptian Coptic Christian churches by Egyptian Muslim citizens.

And then there was the Muslim Brotherhood(?) proceeding to implement Sharia law across all of Egyptian society.

In short, Egypt was heading towards becoming an Iranian-like Islamo-fascist state.

Therefore, I am grateful that Egyptian people power (along with the Egyptian military) was able to stop creeping Islamo-fascism in Egypt.

I hope that Morsi & company are made to answer for those dead Coptic Christians and their destroyed churches.

Even the name "Muslim Brotherhood" gives me the creeps.

I mean, the "Muslim Brotherhood" is just like if the Catholic church were to start & organize & fund a new "Catholic Brotherhood" third political party here in America.

Ugh.  Creepy.

I am also sick of Muslim clerics issuing Fatwa's calling for people to be killed for defaming Mohammed, or Fatwa's blessing Syrian rebels to rape non-Sunni(?) women, just for entertainment.

Barbarian pigs. They desecrate God.

Just my two cents.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Not the greatest diary in the world. (7+ / 0-)

    But you're right about the murders of Copts, and destruction of their churches, encouraged by the Muslim Brotherhood.  I think it was more than benign neglect and inaction.  I think it was the Morsi thugs carrying out the onslaught.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

    by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 02:37:27 PM PDT

    •  Yeah, I know, but I didn't intend to score any (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus

      kospoints with this diary, I just wanted to get this meme out.

      I suppose I could have included a few supporting links, but what I said here is still rock-solid.

      This is interesting:

      I think it was the Morsi thugs carrying out the onslaught.
      If true, Morsi should hang.
  •  the egyptian people (11+ / 0-)

    want a functioning modern democracy. they are showing great courage and determination in trying to establish one.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 02:39:45 PM PDT

  •  Links, please... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fire bad tree pretty, Brecht

    for your assertions about the Mursi admin "permitting" the murder of Copts and the burning of churches.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 02:48:26 PM PDT

  •  We'll see (0+ / 0-)

    Whether removing an elected official is a good thing or whether it will be "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

    Just as when the votes of many superstitious and prejudiced rural voters in the US can often propel politicians who are Islamophobic, or who want to make all citizens obey their moral beliefs whether they share them or not, so it's entirely possible that given another election the results may not be that different.

    •  If I have this right, (0+ / 0-)

      the Islamic Brotherhood won the election in Egypt ONLY because they have been organizing for their moment in the sun for years, decades even, and ran against a splintered/fractured/unorganized opposition ticket, sort of like how that moron repub governor in Maine won.

      I will venture that the next Egyptian election will be MUCH different.

  •  HR for "barbarian pigs" (4+ / 0-)

    There are better ways to talk about this issue that needed to be talked about.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 03:08:56 PM PDT

    •  Hey, look - (5+ / 0-)

      not only are we talking here about rape of women for entertainment, like a video game, but on top of that, MUSLIM CLERIC-ENDORSED rape to boot!

      I am just a guy; Hey women, pls help me out here!

      •  Still not a reason to take away their humanity. (0+ / 0-)

        Call them cowards. Call them the lowest of the low. Call them fucking assholes.

        But don't take away their humanity.

        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:15:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, you were talking about church burning. (0+ / 0-)

        The diary said nothing about rape.  But if you want to talk about rape, talk about rape and you don't have to bring religion into it, either.

        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:45:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Muslim clerics brought religion into it when they (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kane in CA

          issued fatwahs blessing the rape of enemy women by Syrian rebels. Not even Nazi Germany had such stuff.

          But if you want to talk about rape, talk about rape and you don't have to bring religion into it
    •  No, that's HR abuse. (5+ / 0-)

      What is worse?  Murdering Christians just because of their religion and burning down their churches?  Or calling them "barbarian pigs"?

      In the real world, people are being killed because of the fanaticism of the Muslim Brotherhood.

      This imposition of dainty politically correct word-correction is craven bullshit!

      As I said in my first post above, this is not much of a diary.  I didn't rec it.  But it states an important truth.

      You need to get your priorities adjusted.

      The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

      by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:19:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you are against the death penalty, then you (0+ / 0-)

        agree that they have a fundamental humanity.

        Were those that burned Black churches in the 60s "barbarian pigs?"

        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

        by zenbassoon on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:44:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Goodness. That's totally non-responsive. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dewley notid, ploopie

          Yes, I'm against the death penalty.  Yes, I agree that all humans have fundamental humanity.

          And yes, those who burned black churches in the 1960s are fairly labeled "barbarian pigs."

          You're more concerned about words than about murders.

          That's very weird.

          The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

          by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 05:10:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sigh. You said it yourself in an earlier comment: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            annetteboardman

            "Objectionable language".

            The CONTENT should be talked about.  The CONTENT is important. But the language used diminishes the message. You want to call attention to the MESSAGE, not the language.  And reading the comments, I am not the only person to call out the diarist's use of language.

            And objectionable language is objectionable language.

            "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

            by zenbassoon on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 05:22:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Argle bargle. (0+ / 0-)

              (I love that new expression, proclaimed from on high from the Supreme Court.)

              The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

              by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 06:01:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Attacks in (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ploopie, Timaeus

    2011 and 2013. The military foiled an attack in 2013.

    For those who want links.



    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 03:27:43 PM PDT

    •  Your first link (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      angry marmot, Wee Mama, Brecht

      blames Salafi Muslims for the attacks. Salafis are very different to the Muslim Brotherhood both in politics and organisational structures.

      Your second link talks of unrest between Muslims and Christians that was put down by the army.

      Your third link has accusations of neglect to protect on the part of the Morsi govt, not any actual evidence.

      None of these support the views of this diary that Morsi or the MB was permitting attacks on Christians.

      I am an Arab Christian and I refuse to have the  plight of my community be used for Islamophobic purposes.

      •  The Muslim Brotherhood's publicly stated (4+ / 0-)

        goal is to impose sharia law in Egypt (and anywhere else they are in control), in which case Christians would become second class citizens.

        •  You probably think that fear-mongering (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annetteboardman, Brecht

          is the only response you have left since the assertions of the previous commenter have been disproved.

          And I fail to see why sharia is so evil when it is in practice in Israel, as is halacha - the two systems are quite similar and one is sharia is actually derived from halacha. You would do well to educate yourself on what sharia is and how religious rules (including halacha) are implemented in various countries, even some western countries. But I suspect that all I'll get from you is the usual, relentless and uninformed fear-mongering. The floor is yours.

          •  Well, isn't that high-minded and superior? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sandbox

            Of course, we're talking here about real murders of many Christians, and destruction of their churches, in just the last year in Egypt, solely due to their religion.

            You claim to be an Arab Christian.  That makes it strange that you'd take these positions.

            The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

            by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:25:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Claim to be? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Brecht

              Toz alaik, as we say where I come from.

              Why don't you read my other comments in this diary for a better grasp on my positions. And how about you inform yourself about the one-note comments from sandbox before you get on my case.

              •  I apologize for using the word "claim." (3+ / 0-)

                The moment I hit "post" I wished I could edit that, I really did.

                But I have read all the posts here, and although I'm a hurricane of misunderstanding, I do respectfully suggest that you have things out of perspective and should consider removing your tip jar HR.

                Much of the diary is obnoxious and indeed almost illiterate.  But the main point--the persecution of the Copts--is really true and should not be dismissed.

                Incidentally, I did a political asylum case for a Coptic Christian family about 20 years ago.  They've had a hard time in Egypt for decades.  That didn't suddenly start with Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood.  But it DID get much worse in the last year while Morsi was in power, with a responsibility to protect all Egyptians.

                The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

                by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:34:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Relentless and uninformed (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, sandbox

            Pot, meet kettle.

            There may be some similarities between Sharia and Halacha. But Israeli law is primarily based on British mandate law, not religious law.

            •  Eyeroll (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Brecht

              I'd put my comment and diary history on Middle Eastern issues against yours any day of the week. Sharia courts exists in Israel for personal status and religious matters- please use teh google and inform yourself. It's not possible to have a civil marriage in Israel, it must be done under the auspices of a particular sect. Which is why so many couples go to Cyprus.

              As for the links between halacha and sharia:

              see here and here or just google sharia and halacha and see what you come up with.

              •  And nobody (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sandbox

                is required to use those courts. They are only used by choice.

                That you make a lot of comments or write diaries doesn't  increase your reliability, nor is citing your output anything more than a self-referential pat on the back.

                •  Eyeroll (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  annetteboardman, Brecht

                  You can't get married in Israel without the sanction of some religious court. That is not a point at dispute, that is a fact. Go ask any Israeli you know and they will tell you the same thing. And see here:

                  Jewish citizens are obliged by law to wed and divorce according to Jewish law in its Orthodox interpretation.
                  •  Almost right (0+ / 0-)

                    Is getting married mandatory? I'm pretty sure it's not. If you want a government sanctioned marriage, it's either sanctioned by the religious community to which you belong, or if preferred, a non-religious equivalent.  It's not mandatory for anyone.

                    •  Could you please explain what you mean by (0+ / 0-)

                      a "non-religious equivalent"?  I was not aware there was any such thing in Israel.  

                      The reason people get married is because otherwise they cannot stay if they are not Israeli (and it is very difficult to become Israeli if you are not Jewish) and their children are illegitimate.  Or at least that is anecdotal evidence from my friends who live there or who are Israeli or who have married Israelis.

                  •  Re Jewish Halachic law compared (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ploopie

                    to Islamic Sharia law, Judiasm is not seeking converts, Islam is, by force if necessary. While aspects of Halacha law may be dopey, it really only affects a minority of Jews who choose to go along with it.

                    Even when very Orthodox Jewish women decide to leave the religion or date non-Jewish men, we never hear about them being assaulted or killed. Re Islam we continually read about honor killings and assaults for these "transgressions" by Muslim women.

                    Eyeroll.  

                    •  Your 'explanation' is not (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sandbox, Brecht

                      an explanation at all. The point is that both halacha and sharia are codes that govern everyday life and life situations for many Muslims and Jews. From waking up to prayer to diet to relationships (both personal and business) to acceptable conduct in various situations to charity and so on there are marked similarities indicating that sharia found inspiration and structure in halacha. The two issues you raise are beside the point. That Judaism does not seek converts might account for a difference between the two systems but it does not deny their similarities nor that one is based upon the other. As for the issue of honor killings, these are not somehow exclusively Islamic but rather occur in societies with other religions. That Jews turn away from instructions in their own bible about how to deal with adulterous women, for example, is to their credit. And there is no reason why these ideas can't be educated away in all societies. India is trying hard to stamp out honor killings and Jordan is also making great strides on this issuewellwell.

      •  Tell me my friend, am I (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus, Zornorph, dewley notid, sandbox

        "Islamophobic" because I virulently condemn Muslim Clerics who bless & encourage rape???

        Morsi is guilty as sin, because I have heard over & over & over that Copts would be attacked and no one in govt would come to their aid.

        •  Go look at your own language (4+ / 0-)

          If you had called a Jewish or Christian group 'despicable pigs' or 'creepy' then you should as hell would've had a firestorm of criticism aimed at you. In fact, I've seen discussions on this site about how anti-semitic it is to call someone Jewish a pig. Well, Muslims also do not eat pork. Understand now? In an more ideal world, people would realize that demonising any member of a religious group in this way is not acceptable.

          I am an Arab Christian. I have Sunni Muslim first cousins because several aunts have married Muslims. And I have many close friends who are Shia and Alawi. Our region is going through a tough time right now with fundamentalists who wish to rid their countries of those who don't subscribe to their intolerant version of Islam - be they non-Sunni Muslims or Christians. But that does not apply to the vast majority of Muslims out there, nor to the Muslims I know. Please try to talk about this topic in ways that are far less inflammatory than you are using now. And perhaps try to understand the larger forces that are also at work here and how we in the west are allied with the more intolerant groups who financially support those who wish to rid the region of non-Sunni. I had the opportunity to speak to an award-winning Jordanian journalist (a Muslim) recently and she told me that all our problems in the Middle East come from Saudi Arabia. Guess who's allied to Saudi Arabia?

          My anger is aimed as much at the western supporters of these crimes as those who perpetrate these crimes as well. And I'm not just talking about Egypt either - Iraq is a far better example of what has happened to Christians.

          •  You're correct that the diary's language should (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dewley notid

            have been much more measured.

            You're incorrect, in my view, in minimizing the diary's main point about the persecution of Coptic Christians.

            That's my take.  Your family history is very interesting.  As a Christian immigration lawyer who has represented hundreds of Muslims and Christians of all stripes from the Middle East, I really know where you're coming from.

            Nonetheless, I think this diarist is an innocent who should be supported, not attacked.  His or her main point is solid, and you're ignoring that.

            The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

            by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:37:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's only minimising if you accept (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Brecht

              that the vast majority of Muslims are persecuting Christians, which they are not. I am placing this in context. You may not be angry about this diary but I am. Damn, no wonder so many Arabs and Muslims either leave this community or don't some out as Arabs or Muslims when we have to put up with rubbish like this diary and then be told that the way we are responding is 'incorrect'.

              I'm out of this diary.

              •  Goodness. This diary and its thread are not a (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kane in CA, ploopie

                general attack on Arabs or Muslims!

                Wow.  So now you retreat.  I think you're way oversensitive, although I know very well that I have no proper right to criticize your feelings.

                The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

                by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 06:06:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The diary is a News Story but also a Racist Screed (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Fire bad tree pretty

                  Commenters objected to the language of the diary long ago, but the diarist hasn't edited to tone it down at all.

                  Even the name "Muslim Brotherhood" gives me the creeps. . .

                  Ugh.  Creepy. . .

                  Barbarian pigs. They desecrate God.

                  If you can't see the racism here, you're deliberately looking away.

                  "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                  by Brecht on Thu Jul 04, 2013 at 01:56:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Wanna bet? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kane in CA
            If you had called a Jewish or Christian group 'despicable pigs' or 'creepy' then you should as hell would've had a firestorm of criticism aimed at you.
            If a Jewish or Christian group had murdered or raped innocent women & children in the name of some group-think religious ideology, calling them despicable pigs would be a compliment.
      •  I nearly always agree with you, but I think (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Zornorph, ploopie, dewley notid

        your HR on this diary's tip jar is outrageous.

        And your facts are WRONG.

        Here is a good link:

        http://www.catholic.org/... .

        There are hundreds of others.

        I'm representing some Egyptian clients at the moment and have read quite a bit about this.  What I've said in this thread is correct.

        You should remove your HR of the tip jar.  It makes you look small.

        P.S. You should be HR'd yourself for calling the diarist "Islamophobic."  What a bunch of crap.

        The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

        by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:24:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I made no claim that the links fully supported the (0+ / 0-)

        diary. I found them of interest as examples of conflict. I would far rather that people lived at peace with each other.



        Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

        by Wee Mama on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 07:43:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Denounce extremism, not Islam. (3+ / 0-)

    HRd for bigotry in the overly-broad anti-Muslim sentiment expressed in

    I am also sick of all this Muslim cleric "Fatwa" crap, like the recent Fatwa that "permitted" Syrian rebels to rape non-Sunni(?) women, just for entertainment.

    Barbarian pigs. They desicrate (sic) God.

    Try learning about "all this Muslim cleric" stuff before you condemn it all. While some fatwas are clearly violent, some are clearly anti-violence and anti-terrorism. Are they all crap?

    Non-violent Muslims deserve as much respect and protection as non-violent Christians do. And extremist Christians who commit violence should be prosecuted and condemned to the same extent as violent, extremist Muslims.

    Restrict your hate screed to violent extremists regardless of faith, remove the reference to "barbarian pigs," and I'll consider removing the HR.

    •  I hope the diarist will see this and respond in (0+ / 0-)

      a way that encourages you to remove the HR.

      As I've said above, I think this is an innocent diarist, not a malicious one, although much of the language is objectionable.

      I agree with everything you've said here.  I just doublechecked, yep, everything.  And yet, I still myself refrained from HRing the tip jar, because it seems obvious to me that this is a young person (or perhaps a relatively uneducated person) who is making dumb mistakes while trying to express an important point.

      The persecution of the Coptic Christians in Egypt really is an important point.

      The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

      by Timaeus on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 04:41:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nah. I can see where an overly-sensitive person (0+ / 0-)

        would leap to accuse me of being anti-Islam because I labeled a pro-rape fatwa as being a sick and evil thing, but I am sick of editing myself and speaking poliical correctness talk just because someone is overly sensitive. Its THEIR problem and THEIR mistake, not mine!

      •  Well, I DID rewrite this paragraph to now say: (0+ / 0-)
        I am also sick of Muslim clerics issuing Fatwa's calling for people to be killed for defaming Mohammed, or Fatwa's blessing Syrian rebels to rape non-Sunni(?) women, just for entertainment.
    •  No, its "ISLAMIC EXTREMISM" that I am (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kane in CA, Be Skeptical

      targeting here. I am NOT painting all Muslims as being spawn of Bin Laden, but there ARE some sick things that seem to come from the Islam space in particular.

      Murder and rape and church-burning are bad enough in themselves, but to do it thinking that God blesses such is perverse & sick &, yes evil.

      you condemn it all
      what "all" ????
      extremist Christians who commit violence
      If they are real followers of Christ, they do not commit violence. You know, turn the other cheek, forgive your enemy 70 times 7 and all that, whereas a tenet of Islam is eye for an eye, etc.

      Every day Christ is mocked (Jeebus, riding a dinosaur, etc), but I don't see any Christians calling for the mocker to be killed, whereas, I can think of several cases were Islam clerics targeted FOR DEATH some people who criticized Mohammed in a similar way.

  •  Children of Abraham, Lay Down Your Arms (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ploopie

    Moslems, Christians and Jews can bring peace to each other and set the example for a new age in human relationships..

    •  If everyone sincerly practiced forgiveness, (0+ / 0-)

      we COULD have a new age in human relationships, but I think that only Christ taught & exemplified the forgiveness thing....

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