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I have got to admit, I am little miffed, the knee jerk tendency to reject analogies that compare current events to the Holocaust has got to stop, especially as the Russian government responds with impunity to the global opposition to it's new anti-gay laws.

To anyone who insists differently, I ask, when was the last time that it was appropriate to analogize something to the Holocaust? Was it after the genocide in Rwanda? Was it after the genocide in Darfour? Was it after the genocide in Bosnia? Will it be after the Ugandans round up the gays and put them to death? Has there ever been a moment before the full calamity of a genocide has hit when it's been appropriate to say this is like the Holocaust?

Larry Kramer was roundly criticized for analogizing the AIDS epidemic to a holocaust, for calling New York City our Auschwitz, for calling Reagan our Hitler. And yet that's the kind of talk that was necessary to get people to wake up and do something.

Shying away from such analogies protected nobody.

The point of never forgetting, which is our moral obligation, is not to stand as a bystander and point to the exact final outcome and recognize the obvious finality of it all the next time there is a final solution. It's to remember what led to the final outcome and to prevent that outcome from every occurring again.

Granted, there are no concentration camps, though who among us can vow for the treatment gay people receive in Russian prisons? People on Russian talk shows are recommending sending gay people to Siberia? Is that a sufficient analogy? The government pronouncement against gays is sparking violence against LGBT people.

If you recall, Hitler told the IOC that he would not tolerate any Jewish signs during the 1935 Olympics. There's nothing trivial about what's happening in Russia. And if analogizing to the Holocaust is what's required to get people to realize that, so be it.

Originally posted to l3m0n - A Veteran's Journey of Recovery on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:17 PM PDT.

Also republished by Angry Gays.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (3+ / 0-)

    - Jeff US Army/Retired ... With a long enough lever one person can move the World! DoSomething-Anything.Info

    by l3m0n on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:17:36 PM PDT

  •  No, just no (23+ / 0-)

    What the LGBT community in Russia is facing is horrendous and analogous to many things.

    The Holocaust is not one of them.

    Don't forget, in some states in the US we have similar laws. One "Don't say gay" law is too many, but it's not unique to Russia. And while it is, indeed, tragic, it's not a fucking Holocaust.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:26:35 PM PDT

  •  I think that great care should be used in (18+ / 0-)

    comparing any events to the Holocaust.

    The genocidal events that you list above, in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Darfour can at least be mentioned in the same context, as they represent true genocide and significant numbers.  Perhaps other events such as the Killing Fields in Cambodia and the slaughter of millions by Mao in China compare to some extent in scope and horror.

    I do think, however, that the Holocaust was the most horrific event in modern history due to the systematic way it was carried out, the unmatched cruelty, and the success of the genocide.  Almost all the Jews who did not leave Europe prior to WWII were killed.  The thriving Jewish community that existed in Europe was wiped out.

    Are the Russians systematically exterminating all the gays in Russia.  If not, I would not use the term Holocaust.

    •  There are many similarities to what is happening (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stevie avebury

      and what happened in the Olympics in 1935, no Gays, no Gay Protests, recommendations by the media of Gays being sent off to Siberia, to not recognize the similarities is to deny the very beginnings of The Generalizations about Jews, which lead to their Dehumanization, which lead to their genocide.

      - Jeff US Army/Retired ... With a long enough lever one person can move the World! DoSomething-Anything.Info

      by l3m0n on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 09:37:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This will not end well for you. (10+ / 0-)

    Nor should it.

    Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

    by Wisper on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:34:05 PM PDT

    •  Probably not, rarely does it, ... (0+ / 0-)

      I find it interesting that people totally miss my point, which I believe was well stated.

      - Jeff US Army/Retired ... With a long enough lever one person can move the World! DoSomething-Anything.Info

      by l3m0n on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 10:16:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  l3mOn - when is the comparison appropriate? (15+ / 0-)

    When the Russians start rounding up all the gays and cooking them in ovens.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:39:08 PM PDT

  •  Aim Earlier for a Much More Preliminary Period (13+ / 0-)

    When you say "Holocaust" you're talking about the actual mass extermination which is not happening to LGBT's.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:39:46 PM PDT

  •  Wow, if you have to ask, then perhaps you should (11+ / 0-)

    ...reread about the Holocaust. I think you might not truly understand what happened. If you did, and you are a decent person, then the answer would be obvious.

    You might also want to review how the AIDS crisis was handled back in the early days of the crisis and what things worked, and what things divide focus.

    The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

    by sebastianguy99 on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:40:07 PM PDT

    •  I was in ACT UP/SF ...I know what worked ... (0+ / 0-)

      Looking back all these years later, I still agree with Larry Kramer that the AIDS Pandemic * IS * our generations Holocaust, and I never knew why he took heat for it, and the The Gay issue is our generations "Jewish Problem". I think people should be able to protest at the Olympics, just as protest should have been allowed for the Jews!

      - Jeff US Army/Retired ... With a long enough lever one person can move the World! DoSomething-Anything.Info

      by l3m0n on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 09:21:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The AIDS pandemic is NOT our generations (2+ / 0-)

        "Jewish Problem".

        Unless you believe the fantastic conspiracy theory that the HIV virus is a biological warfare agent created to kill Gay people, there is no comparison.  There is a difference between a disease killing people and a government killing people.

        Do you really believe that the AIDS virus targets Gay people through bigotry and hatred?  The more comparisons you make, the more offended I become.

        •  No I believe it targets the Poor and Disenfranchis (0+ / 0-)

          Gays are not the only one's effected by AIDS, minorities and the disenfranchised are disproportionately represented by the AIDS pandemic.  I do not believe that it "targets" these people, but since it is effecting these people money for AIDS Prevention of this 100% preventable disease is being cut, while AIDS cases are on the rise.  

          - Jeff US Army/Retired ... With a long enough lever one person can move the World! DoSomething-Anything.Info

          by l3m0n on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:57:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The search for a hyperbolic metaphor (6+ / 0-)

    propels some people into seeking comparisons that are wildly inappropriate and wildly off-base.

    I'm a little miffed, too, and it's got to stop.

    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:44:41 PM PDT

  •  I recommend you look at it from the... (24+ / 0-)

    ...utilitarian point of view. Every time you employ this trope to describe what is happening to LGBTs in Russia, you will derail your own efforts to show how awful their treatment is by causing some portion, likely a large portion, of those who read you or are listening to you to focus on your use of the word you think makes for a reasonable comparison.

    Instead of spotlighting the despicable government policies and attitudes towards to the LGBT populace in Russia, you will lose allies and potential allies by stoking a tangential discussion.

    I was not personally touched by the Nazi Holocaust. But my ancestors on this continent—including a few I can name—certainly were victims of genocidal policies. Should I call it the American Holocaust? To what end? I want to learn of what is happening to LGBTs in Russia and what, if anything, I can contribute to fighting the evil policies that are there imposed. But if I read "Holocaust" in this regard, it's going to distract me.

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:46:27 PM PDT

  •  And one more comment: I'm of Jewish heritage (11+ / 0-)

    and had relatives who "disappeared" in Europe during WWII.  

    13m0n, I don't know your heritage, but inappropriately comparing much lesser events to the Holocaust is painful to Jews.  It is no more appropriate to trivialize the Holocaust than it would be to trivialize slavery or the slaughter of the American Indians.

    I bet you'd feel differently about using the other events I just mentioned as your comparitor. Try posting a diary comparing the treatment of Gays in Russia to the slaughter of the American Indians and let's see what kind of response you get.

    •  A More Appropriate Analogy (0+ / 0-)

      Comparing what is happening to LGBT people in Russia today to what has happened to the Palestinian people in Israel and in the territories it is colonizing.

      This aggression will not stand, man.

      by kaleidescope on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 09:04:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  kaleidescope - that would likely be as (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        never forget

        provocative as comparing it to the Holocaust. People are trying to help the author understand that when you use a comparison like the Holocaust rather than focusing the attention of the actions of the Russians the focus is on the comparison. The same would be true trying to compare this to the Palestinians and the Israelis. The focus would then shift to an I/P discussion and away from Russia and the gays.  

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 08:20:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think that the Israel/ Palestinian situation (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites

        is very complex, and there is right and wrong on both sides.

        I am not making any attempt to justify all the actions of Israel in this comment, but I think that bringing Palestinian situation into this discussion is distracting and not a good comparison.  

        I don't believe that you intended this, but I have heard people bring up negatives regarding actions by Jews as a way of explaining why the the Holocaust occurred.

    •  My point was just that, people attack the medaphor (0+ / 0-)

      and totally forget that the Dehumanizing of Gays in Russia is taking place, violence is happening to Gay people because of this Dehumanization, just as what happened to the Jews in Germany.  Russia has banned Gays form the Games, said their would be no protests tolerated, just as Hitler did with the Jews in 1935, radio talking heads are proposing a final solution of shipping Gays off to Siberia, if the Jails get over filled!

      As a Jewish person, you don't recognize the same pattern that Hilter used against the Jews, Generalization leading to Dehumanization, leading to genocide.

      Seems to me that instead of shooting down the metaphor, someone of Jewish heritage would be on lookout for these patterns and calling the International Community to condemn such actions, or is it the same as the German's "Not my problem, let them ship the Gays to Jail."

      The Nazi's also killed GAYS, remember?  Pink Triangle?

      - Jeff US Army/Retired ... With a long enough lever one person can move the World! DoSomething-Anything.Info

      by l3m0n on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 09:48:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Very good point- Gays were targeted by Hitler (0+ / 0-)

        as well during the Holocaust. So I don't think you are out of line to compare the current russian regime to the Third Reich.

      •  There is also rampant anti-semitism in Russia, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites

        but I do not call that a second Holocaust.

        A thing is what it is.  Your argument that things are happening in Russia that resemble things that happened in Germany leading up to the Holocaust in no way makes what is happening in Russia a Holocaust.  

        Perhaps people think it is alright to compare the Holocaust to any undesirable situation because they are used to hearing it.  The right wing constantly compares actions of our government to the Holocaust.  This repetition may be removing the horror that is associated with it.

        Since you are so determined that what is happening in Russia is equivalent to the most horrific genocide in modern history, it certainly must be comparable to the other examples of genocide that you listed in your diary.  

        Please confirm for me that you believe that what is happening in Russia is equivalent to the genocide in Rwanda, Darfour, or Bosnia.

      •  When a person from a marginalized group (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        never forget, Cassandra Waites

        tells you something is offensive—listen.  Don't try to explain to a woman why something isn't REALLY sexist or try to tell a black person why something isn't racist.  If you want to be an ally to these groups (and as a progressive, I would hope you would), listen to what they have to say.  

        If a Jew tells you that comparisons to the Holocaust are offensive, STOP MAKING COMPARISONS TO THE HOLOCAUST.  

      •  In your comment, you tell me what I "don't (0+ / 0-)

        recognize".  You also assume that I don't care about discrimination against Gays because it is "not my problem".

        What do you know about me?  How do you know that I am not Gay?  I have a daughter who is ambivalent about her sexual orientation, and I have no problem with that.

        I think that your thinking and judgment are clouded by the bigotry you have experienced.  Assuming that people have attitudes and prejudices simply because they disagree with you is a very slippery slope.

  •  The ignorance is shocking (7+ / 0-)

    and reprehensible.

    Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

    by dhonig on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:54:37 PM PDT

  •  Read a few books on the Holocaust. (10+ / 0-)

    Then be ashamed for the incredible ignorance you have shown here.

    Warren/3-D Print of Warren in 2016!

    by dov12348 on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 07:58:58 PM PDT

  •  "Granted, there are no concentration camps ..." (8+ / 0-)

    and granted, millions of gays have not been exterminated, but other than that your analogy is spot on.

    Not. This is one of the stupidest diaries I've ever read in my decade here. And yes, I'm gay.

    "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10 UID: 8519

    by Bob Love on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 08:22:40 PM PDT

  •  That standard by which others are measured... (7+ / 0-)

    The Holocaust does not need to be compared to anything, in order to demonstrate how horrific is was, because it was such a horrific, nightmarish chain of events that it is the standard to which other events are compared.   No one is tempted to say that the Holocaust was as horrific as the Genocide in Rwanda.    No.  People, instead, lean on the reputation of the Holocaust to lend horror to some other topic they are discussing.

    That is why any comparison to the Holocaust tends to be an inaccurate comparison, because if an event needs to be compared to the Holocaust for people to grasp the magnitude of it, then it is nowhere near the magnitude of the Holocaust, because there was no escaping awareness of the magnitude of the Holocaust.  It was not a metaphorical Holocaust, it was not "like" the Holocaust -- it was The real Holocaust.

    My concern with comparing tragic events of lesser magnitude to the Holocaust is that by equating the Holocaust with lesser events in the attempt to dramatize the lesser event, it has, at the same time, the effect of suggesting a trivialization of the greater event, The Holocaust.   As horrific as the genocide in Rwanda was (est. 800 thousand died), it was not on a scale of The Holocaust (est. 11 million died).  These numbers may not be exact, but they demonstrate the differences of magnitude.  

    As time passes, and people forget exactly what happened, when they constantly hear The Holocaust compared to smaller events, the next generation may picture the deaths of thousands, rather than the deaths of millions.    By rejecting comparisons of the Holocaust, we reinforce the lesson that there is nothing that compares to the magnitude of The Holocaust.    Whatever you are picturing, it was a thousand times worse than that.  NOTHING was like the Holocaust.

    When an event is so horrible, so far-reaching, so graphic and inhuman and evil that no comparison can every truly give it justice, then perhaps it will be "like" the Holocaust.  But, then, there will be no need for comparison to the Holocaust, because it will have set a new, non-metaphorical standard for horrific.

    Besides, I don't need to say that the genocide in Rwanda was "like the Holocaust", because The Genocide in Rwanda was The Genocide in Rwanda.   It did, in its own way, set a new standard for horrific, and needs not be dramatized through metaphor.   I remember waking up with my radio alarm clock that morning, in a half waking almost hypnotic state, listening to how villagers downstream saw the hacked up body parts floating down their river, and in my half-waking state, picturing this horror.   It was truly a "nightmarish" event.

    •  AIDS is the Holocaust of GenX, 70 MILLION Dead, (0+ / 0-)

      1% of the 18-24 years old WORLD WIDE infected, over 135 MILLION living with HIV, over 70 MILLION dead, the systematic ways that Governments have ignored the problem, denied the issue, and still deny it is Horrific beyond compare, but you are right, AIDS is not even comparable to the Holocaust, because 10 times the number of people have died.  Larry Kramer's statement was very true, about AIDS, and the similarity to the events of 1935 is SHOCKING, and terrifying.  I am sorry you don't see it!

      - Jeff US Army/Retired ... With a long enough lever one person can move the World! DoSomething-Anything.Info

      by l3m0n on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 10:03:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are still missing the point, (4+ / 0-)

        as horrible as both events are, as many similarities as you can draw, rightly or wrongly, the Holocaust is a unique event with unique characteristics. As MB told you above, using the term Holocaust to describe anything other than the Holocaust distracts your audience and detracts from the message you are trying to convey. Add to that that you are offending many in the community. The response you have received in this diary should give you a few clues.

        AIDS is not the Holocaust of GenX, not even close. As horrible as the AIDS epidemic continues to be and as hard as it hit the GenX there is no comparison. Look at it this way, the Holocaust almost wiped out the entire Jewish people off the face of Europe  in a concerted effort while inflicting as much pain, cruelty and misery as humanly, and inhumanly, possible by a very depraved group of people. Can you honestly say that GenX has been driven to almost extinction here or anywhere? Can you see where your comparisons fails? As many have pointed out above there are many significant differences.

        None of what I said tries to takes away in the least form the tragedy and the injustices of the AIDS epidemic, but your insistence in making the comparison is obtuse, offensive, ignorant and quite honestly you devalue both tragedies in the process. The tragedies of the AIDS epidemic and the Holocaust stand on their own. No comparisons are necessary. They are both a symbol of what horrible things some humans are capable of doing to other humans and teach us the level of depravity some humans are capable of. Each and every tragedy should teach us many lessons.

        Finally, don't accuse others of not seeing

        I am sorry you don't see it!
        when you yourself are being blind.

        "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -John F. Kennedy

        by basquebob on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 12:17:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  AIDS is AIDS (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        never forget

        The Holocaust was the Holocaust.  

        AIDS was not The Holocaust.

        If your conversational intent is to emphasize the horrors  of the AIDS epidemic, what you actually achieve is to divert attention from AIDS, and onto The Holocaust.

        So, it doesn't seem like the language is communicating what you want to communicate.  

        As all references to The Holocaust do, your reference reminds people of the horrors of that time.    That might have been your intent, but the word is too powerful.  It causes your discussion to jump the track and travel back to the 1930's and 1940's, and leave the AIDs epidemic of the recent decades behind.

        If you start a conversation about AIDS, and keep it on AIDS, without bringing up The Holocaust, the subject of AIDS has a similar effect on me as The Holocaust.  But, when you introduce specific references to The Holocaust into a conversation about AIDS, I travel back to the time of The Holocaust, and I am no longer with you on the discussion about AIDS.   It effectively ends the discussion for me.

        So, what is your intent?  

        To cause pain and insult to old people?    Check.  
        To derail any focus on the AIDS epidemic?   Check.
        To focus on the AIDS epidemic?   FAIL.

  •  What is happening in Russia is bad enough.... (4+ / 0-)

    Without having to compare it to the holocaust. Just in terms of sheer numbers, and the death toll, the two situations aren't really comparable. Additionally, what is going on in Russia is not particularly unique. Many other countries criminalize homosexuality, with the death penalty applied to consensual, adult relationships (much of the middle-east, for example). Hell, even with the government-encouraged rash of hate crimes in Russia, I doubt that Russia will overtake Jamaica in terms of sheer hostility among the general population towards gays.

    The conditions in Russia are plenty awful, and we should do what we can to fight against them. Just don't agree with a holocaust comparison.

  •  Why? (5+ / 0-)

    Because what is happening to LBGT people in Russia today, though horrendous, isn't even close to being as bad as that small part of European Jewish Holocaust known as "Kristallnacht."  And Kristallnacht happened before the European Jewish Holocaust really even got going in a big way.

    What's happening to LGBT people in Russia right now is on a scale with what happened to black people in the American South during the civil rights movement.  Lynchings  and  beatings and plenty of unjust arrests.  That just isn't the same as mass deportations and mass gassing.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 08:58:47 PM PDT

  •  No. It does not have to stop. YOU need to stop. (6+ / 0-)
    the knee jerk tendency to reject analogies that compare current events to the Holocaust has got to stop
    No.  It doesn't.

    What has to stop is people insensitively using The Holocaust for selfish purposes, to make some point about some other topic.

    It is like the n- word.   When you bring it up, you instantly recall a lifetime of pain and anguish, some very personal, such as people who lost all their family.    If you understood how you were hurting people, you would not do it.

    •  When I was 18 I was in Queer Nation ... (0+ / 0-)

      Larry Kramer and my mentor Randy Shiltz talked to me often about how the word QUEER was tearing the Gay Community part on Generational Lines.  Young Gays like me wanted to RECLAIM the word and wear it as a badge of honor, older Gays did not want to hear the word of terror form their youth.  Just as now the Black Youth have reclaimed the N-word and now use it as a badge of honor, much as we in Queer Nation is with the word QUEER, Yes older Black people feel pain when they hear that N-word of HATE bashed around as a badge of honor.  Yes older Gays wear hurt when they heard us refer to ourselves as QUEERS.

      Each Generation must choose its own identity, and use the language of its age.  WE IN America our currently experiencing a Black Genocide, and I have heard People of Color refer to it as the BLACK HOLOCAUST, (look it up!)

      To draw comparisons of the patterns of the past, Generalization, dehumanization and genocide is to honor the past and recognize that we have been moved, touched and educated by these patterns, and call them out now when we see them in action.

      And it is not possible to not draw similarities between what took place in 1935 and Hilter, to what is happening now, right down to the olympics being involved

      - Jeff US Army/Retired ... With a long enough lever one person can move the World! DoSomething-Anything.Info

      by l3m0n on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 10:15:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Generations must live together (0+ / 0-)

        You are fully aware of the offense that you give to other generations when you reference The Holocaust in this manner.    No one can stop you from giving offense.   But, you can't stop people from pointing out that you are behaving offensively, either.

        If you want people to respect you, you have to respect other people.  
         

      •  It is clear that you have been deeply affected (0+ / 0-)

        by bigotry that you have experienced toward Gay people in this country.  Things may be better now, but every Jew in this country who is at least middle aged has experienced plenty of anti-semitism.  Not comparing, just saying that Jews certainly understand prejudice.

        A Holocaust is not any situation where many people die.  A Holocaust is the result of people killing other people.  The AIDS Pandemic is horrible, and the death toll is staggering, but AIDS is caused by a virus.  The virus is not evil, and it does not hate or target Gay people.  

        I hope you stop making this comparison.  You may not intend it, but what you are doing is insensitive, vicious, and hurtful.

        This will be my last comment to this diary, as participating in this discussion is painful to me.

  •  The comparison does no one any good (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    misslegalbeagle, never forget

    What is happening to LGBT people in Russia is a human rights disaster. As is what happened to and continues to happen to LGBT people in Uganda, and in many other countries.

    I understand what it is to see wanton hatred and violence against my LGBT sisters and brothers in whatever country and to want to SCREAM and RAGE and to do whatever I can to help them, to educate, to quell the hate, and that includes, from time to time, the desire to toss out rhetorical bombs like comparing what's happening in Russia or Uganda (or...or...) to The Holocaust. But I've come to believe that that massive tragedy deserves its hallowed place, deserves to be named in caps, and shouldn't be co-oped. NOT because I think the beating, killing, or terrorizing of LGBT people in any given place deserves less attention, or because one tragedy is less tragic than another, but because there is historical ownership in The Holocaust among those who suffered through it and their descendants, including not just Jews but LGBT people, gypsies, and others.

    Again, I understand and sometimes feel the impulse to look at contemporary events and say, Well it's like The Holocaust! when authoritarian regimes take aim at LGBTers or any particular group,  but I don't think it does the cause any good to draw parallels to The Holocaust and invite debate over whose pain outweighs another's.

  •  I've thought about this a lot... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave in Northridge

    I think making a HISTORICAL ANALOGY with a point to it is allowable.  For instance, as you say, Hitler would not tolerate Jewish signs during the 1935 Olympics.  I wasn't aware of that, or what exactly prohibited, but it sounds like the kind of thing he would have done.  

    But you need to do more than that if you don't want it to be a cheap shot.  The cheap shot is: "Hitler brushed his teeth with Pepsodent!  So does Putin!"  That's what most people gravitate towards, using "Hitler" or "Nazis" as shorthand for pure evil and then guilt by connect the dots association.

    So I'll say it's not a good analogy, yet, for this reason: I can't extrapolate from Hitler's rules on signs for the 1935 Olympics to the Holocaust.  As a Jew, the signs thing doesn't strike me as something I would hate Hitler for too much.  If he'd stuck at the sign-banning stage, the world would have been a better place.  Is there a slippery slope from banning signs to the Holocaust?  I don't see it yet.

    Russia has had many holocausts.  It's a place with a lot of mass graves.  My own tendency is to think that they might have some growing pains to deal with with the gay rights thing.  There are still cops in our country enforcing sodomy laws (illegally).

    I'm curious how this will play out, because you know there will be public acts of civil disobedience in front of the TV cameras.  They just about guaranteed it for themselves.

  •  Agree. It is shocking to see regression in human (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave in Northridge

    rights in 2013, we always see progress, a step back once in a while, but progress.

  •  I think (3+ / 0-)

    you can make the historical comparison with what is happening now in Russia to the equivalent in Nazi Germany, prior TO the actual Holocaust.  The reason being that yes, we can say these things are similar and look where this other one led, but to equate the entirety of the Holocaust to what is happening NOW in Russia is a misleading comparison.  The Holocaust is a very specific thing, it was a systemic extermination of "undesirable" people which included nearly the entire Jewish population of Europe (at least those who were not able to flee).  There is currently no systemic extermination of undesirables including gays going on in Russia.  Their existence is being criminalized along with a whole host of other issues, but they are not being led into death camps in the middle of the night.

    If you insist on using this comparison, you need to use it cautiously.  Like MB said up above, if you use it recklessly you only alienate people who would otherwise be right there with you.  

    "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

    by Silvia Nightshade on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 06:13:52 AM PDT

    •  13m0n is obviously an activist regarding Gay (0+ / 0-)

      rights issues.  I support these issues as well (e.g. marriage equality).  The fact that I have a daughter who is ambivalent about her sexual orientation makes these issues more than ideological to me.

      His completely inappropriate comparison, and his attacking tone in his comments, actually hurt his cause.  While I strongly support Gay equality, I would certainly never work with him on anything.

      There is nothing to be gained by alienating people.

  •  Many Different Minorities Were Put To Death (0+ / 0-)

    during the Holocaust including gay people.

    "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

    by kerplunk on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 08:54:29 AM PDT

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