Interview: Martha Shane and Lana Wilson, co-directors of the documentary, After Tiller. I interviewed them for Vents Magazine last week. The film will be released Sept. 20th in New York and Oct 4. in LA.
In After Tiller, Directors Martha Shane and Lana Wilson have created a moving exploration of one of the most incendiary topics of our time, abortion – in this case, late abortion, by telling the story through the eyes and words of the four remaining doctors who can perform the procedure and their patients. And they’ve done so in an informative, thought-provoking, and compassionate way that keeps the anti-abortion movement in the picture but only as a constant presence in the background.
Shane and Wilson and their all-female film crew take you into the doctor’s offices, the examination room and the operating room. You listen to the heartbreaking stories from the patients seeking a late abortion. Youu sit with the doctors as they agonize over each decision –going through a series of medical and ethical standards each patient must meet. You walk with them as they secretively, search for new office space when new laws force them out of the states they are working in. And you stand quietly in the crowd as anti-abortion activists seek to keep them out by pressuring landlords and government agencies.
After Tiller was an official selection for the 2013 Sundance Film Festival and it will likely be one of the most controversial films of the year. Shane and Wilson have managed to produce a subtle, compassionate film that will be the most powerful statement to date on the high volume abortion debate because it is so quiet. It will make people lean in and listen, and maybe speak more softly and compassionately themselves.
I sat down with the directors this week in an interview forVents Magazine and leaned in and listened.
Was this a hard film to make, emotionally, or was it a relief once you made the decision to do it and started pre-production?
Lana. Once the doctors agreed we were excited. It was not hard; it was a pleasure and privilege to make this film. It was a very emotional film to make as we were making it, of course. But it being able to make it was an incredible gift…these doctors went way beyond just being a doctor and we were present to see that and show it to others now.
How did you make that decision – what kinds of conversations did you have before green lighting yourself.
Lana. I was not a filmmaker, so I went to Martha. I became obsessed with Dr. Tillers story (George Tiller, abortion doctor assassinated in 2009 by an anti-choice activist) because I was so frustrated by the media coverage. The story was always covered with talking points from both sides and it was totally politically focused. There was no attempt to look deeper and to understand him. The fact that he was killed in church also intrigued me, given the religious basis for many of the anti-choice protesters. And the fact that he went back to work after being shot the first time also interested me. Of course I wanted to know why women would want a late abortion. The news coverage didn’t go that deep so I talked to Martha and we agreed to make a film that did not cover stuff people already knew. We wanted to make a film about the these doctors. We wanted to turn down the volume on the abortion debate.
Was it hard to get permission to interview the doctors and film in the clinics?
Lana. The two male doctors agreed, but the two female doctors first said no…it took a year to convince them. .Dr. Tiller never did interviews. ..he always said it was not about him, it was about the patients. And they said the same. But in reality, if the doctors do not tell their stories it creates a vacuum that the other side fills. We made that case to them and it helped convince them to allow us to film. They also participated in Rachael Maddox’s television show and that did not lead to increased harassment, so that helped- they didn’t think the film could either.. These doctors are proud of the work they do.
Also, for us, why have only male doctors in the film?. Plus, it was good to have a lesbian doctor in case there is a lesbian medical student out there who sees the film and decides she needs to learn this procedure..
You keep the anti-abortion forces at a distance, but you let us know how pervasive they are and how they can intervene in things like building leasing as well as threaten the doctors and the patients. Was that a conscious decision from the outset, or was it a logistical necessity or did it evolve in the editing?
Martha. It was a conscious decision. We wanted to cover the abortion issue without following the news media form of giving equal time to talking points from both sides. We are a film, not the news. We had the freedom to focus as we wanted to and our focus was not on one side of the debate or another, it was on the doctors. This enabled us to give our audience something new – something they had not seen before. We also were able to honestly portray the protestors as they are experienced by the doctors, always in the back ground. The protesters don’t directly interact with the doctors. And, we did not want to vilify the anti-choice protesters or make them look cartoonish. We treated them fairly.
You know that all sides in the debate over a woman’s right to choose will try to use this film in some way to advance their agenda. Did you think about that as you assembled the film and try to limit how it could be used or misused, or did you tell the story as you saw it and let the political chips fall where they may?
Martha. We have a point of view, but we think the issue is more complicated that either side acknowledges. We want to show it as complicated. There are clips that people will use one way or another, we know that . We just had to be as honest as possible instead of worrying how each sound bite will be misused. You can’t worry about that.
This film does not pretend to be an answer to the issues surrounding abortion, but rather a compassionate look at the doctors and the women involved in late abortions. But , it may be inevitable that the very fact that you do look at the those involve with compassion and an open mind, will enable some in the anti-abortion forces to label it as “pro-abortion” propaganda. Do you care if that happens?
Lana. We knew that there is a faction of the anti-choice movement that the anti will denounce any compassion or either the doctors or the women as support for “baby-killing”. We are not making our film for them, but for people who have more complex feelings.
Martha. We wanted to make this film for the people in the middle, not the extremists. The extremists will never change their minds no matter what they see. We are not talking to them. Most people are not extremists, on either side of the debate. That is most of the nation. That was the audience we saw – most people are not extreme. But there is so much misinformation out there that we hope an honest, compassionate look at the doctors and the women will tone down the debate..
At one point in the film, one of the Doctor’s tells us that once people understand what is going on with the women it is impossible to support opposing a late abortion. Was that your goal in this film, to enable all audiences to understand what is going on with the women whose lives and babies on are on the line?
Lana. Yes. When we started out, it was meant to be a portrait of the doctors. As we spent more time in the clinics it became clear how desperate the women were. And it because obvious that the women had to be a big part of the film.
Martha. The audience doesn't have to agree with us. That is not our goal. We just want compassion and understanding. In a toned down way if the debate over abortion is toned down a little by our film, then that is success.
The anti-abortion movement is based, philosophically, on the notion that a pregnancy is a live separate human being and that only thing that matters in in any decision regarding abortion is the life of the fetus, or baby. Setting aside the fact that scientifically this argument is not scientifically accurate, your film expands this argument by pointing out that there are many things to be considered, and the doctors consider them, sometimes painfully Was this your goal at the outset?
Martha. We are film makers – we did not have an evolved idea of life or the philosophical questions before we made the film. And the doctors all have their own ideas about that question, and we show that. For instance, we filmed one of the doctors saying this is a baby in the third trimester. Dr. Tiller always said that life begins in the heart of the mother.
Lana. What we hope is that everyone’s idea about that question is unique and thoughtful . There is no answer to the baby/fetus question…and we are not providing one.
Some of the most powerful scenes in the film involve interviews with the women considering late abortions. In one scene a woman says it is guilt no matter what you do – it is guilt if you have an abortion or it is guilt if you bring a malformed baby into the world to die. Were these difficult scenes to get permission to shoot, and once you were there, were you crying with the patients.
Martha. We took cues from the doctors- they didn’t always keep emotional distance from the patients and they reacted to them and we reacted too. The hardest thing was finding the woman who would share their stories; 90% did not. They were going through so much grief they could not and we understood that. For the ones that did allow us to film, the chemistry between them and the doctors made them forget about the cameras, which is one reason some of those scenes are so powerful, so honest.
Was this film hard to finance?
Lana. Yes, financing was hard. Many people asked why would you do a movie on abortion. Pro-choice people think that you should not talk about abortion – that doing so it is a losing battle. We started with individual funders who really got it. Without them it would not have been possible Right at the end we got institutional funds. Some foundations that said no told us that they not sure where you are going to come down. We said we are not coming down..we are telling a story. But in the end, so funded us after they saw the finished film.
Will you or anyone else try to get it screened for Congress or state legislators?
Martha. Yes, we would like to. One of the doctors tried to get legislators of his state to visit the clinic, but not one showed up. We hope some will see the film.
How would you like to see the national debate on abortion resolved, assuming that it can be resolved?
Lana. As film makers we think it can be possible for us to help change the tone of the debate, but not resolve the question, the policy. We want to see the volume turned down, the shouting stopped or lessened and those involved in the debate and bring compassion to their positions. The film is is about how we judge other people, giving them the benefit of doubt.
Thank you