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Campylobacter Bacteria
For decades, livestock producers have used low doses of antibiotics to expedite animal growth. The practice lowers feed costs while increasing meat production, and nearly 80 percent (you read that right!) of the antibiotics used in the United States are for this purpose. The evidence that low dose use of antibiotics in livestock encourages the growth of antibiotic-resistant “superbugs,” such as MRSA becomes stronger everyday. For that reason it’s banned in many countries, but remains common in the U.S. Although prophylactic antibiotic use in livestock has been in use since the 1950s, how it works has long been a mystery. But evidence is mounting that it might be due to antibiotics killing microorganisms that populate animals’ guts.
If so, antibiotics could do the same thing to humans. In support of this idea, a paper published last month in Nature, identifies a correlation between diversity of gut microflora and human obesity. A nine-year study, led by Dr. S. Dusko Ehrlich of France’s National Institute for Agricultural Research, compared microbiotas–the 100-trillion-member microbial ecosystems that populate the body–of slim and obese people.

The team found obese people have lower microbial diversity in their bellies. This is consistent with earlier research in mice, as well as a paper published last year in Journal of Obesity that found a strong correlation between young children’s exposure to antibiotics and later obesity.

Perhaps more significantly, the team behind the Nature study found a correlation between low microbial diversity and heart disease, diabetes and cancer, regardless of weight. “Even lean people who are poor in bacterial species have a higher risk of developing these pathologies,” Ehrlich told NPR.

All this supports the ideas that eating a poor diet or taking lots of antibiotics may be factors in the obesity epidemic and associated health problems, in part, because of the way they affect our gut microbes, Ehrlich says.

Originally posted to beach babe in fl on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 02:02 PM PDT.

Also republished by DK GreenRoots, Meatless Advocates Meetup, and Daily Kos.

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  •  Tip Jar (149+ / 0-)
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    PhilK, jfromga, JerryNA, Crider, annieli, gchaucer2, DRo, slowbutsure, dRefractor, phonegery, Mary Mike, remembrance, Eileen B, PurpleMyst, Paul Ferguson, lexalou, pimutant, philipmerrill, Regina in a Sears Kit House, Egalitare, Simplify, Christin, Getreal1246, 3goldens, howabout, zerelda, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, IndieGuy, limpidglass, viral, churchylafemme, JekyllnHyde, belinda ridgewood, highacidity, CroneWit, Nulwee, Matt Z, SME in Seattle, Marihilda, zmom, sillycarrot, Chaddiwicker, Sylv, Liberty Equality Fraternity and Trees, marleycat, Bluesee, AoT, Kentucky DeanDemocrat, blueoasis, catfishbob, Joieau, RandomNonviolence, peachcreek, elwior, seefleur, TX Scotia, atana, monkeybrainpolitics, solesse413, OHdog, dandy lion, pat bunny, weck, worldlotus, karmsy, Just Bob, indubitably, Mark Mywurtz, NoMoreLies, Glen The Plumber, Kevskos, eru, quagmiremonkey, wader, terabytes, sebsgf, rubyclaire, Hastur, rb137, 207wickedgood, LaughingPlanet, JayDean, Militarytracy, eeff, Habitat Vic, FarWestGirl, pvasileff, Teiresias70, Catesby, kerflooey, freerad, rapala, Aaa T Tudeattack, Nebraskablue, psnyder, science nerd, AZ Sphinx Moth, Eric Blair, Fiona West, alasmoses, DSPS owl, turn blue, SoCaliana, dkmich, yoduuuh do or do not, roses, chantedor, mrsgoo, Involuntary Exile, Carol in San Antonio, Buckeye Nut Schell, Rosaura, Debs2, pixxer, vahana, NonnyO, nomandates, Bisbonian, shesaid, greenearth, susakinovember, Brecht, 417els, Tinfoil Hat, buffalo soldier, Lawrence, skepticalcitizen, Ice Blue, splashy, nzanne, myboo, JamieG from Md, poco, martinjedlicka, Avilyn, NYmom, Art Tric, rbird, Wary, thomask, Sara R, OjaiValleyCali, Burned, cocinero, stvnjon, Oh Mary Oh, maybeeso in michigan, LinSea, Dr Arcadia

    Macca's Meatless Monday

    by VL Baker on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 02:02:13 PM PDT

  •  no guts microbes, no glory microbes (34+ / 0-)

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 02:24:12 PM PDT

  •  I can't thank you enough for this succinct, (40+ / 0-)

    well written post. Yes indeed: 80% of antibiotics are used in beef, chicken, pork and other animal production including farmed fish. Not just for weight gain, but for crowding closer than they should be to prevent infection outbreaks.

    How long have we as a society been taking these into our systems? My understanding is that it slowly ramped up from the 1950's on.

    So here we are in the next century with new zoonotic infections on the rise due to climate change and we, the public are being told we must reduce our use of antibiotics.

    I agree, a virus like a cold should not be treated with antibiotics, and apparently this practice became widespread in the 1970s and 1980s.

    But today, with our battered immune systems trying to adapt to many airborne, waterborne and food borne toxins, we may need antibiotics more than ever.

    They are cheap (hence the use in agriculture. Heck I get my yearly dose of Streptomycin by air for FireBlight prevention in pear orchards.); they are very low on the toxicity rating the FDA uses to judge the potential damage a med or treatment may impose on a system.

    New or recombined antibiotics are not high in pharma research because they are generally...oh yes, cheap.

    So here we are. Feed lots will become a thing of the past, it's a matter of when.

    Science is hell bent on consensus. Dr. Michael Crichton said “Let’s be clear: The work of science has nothing to do with consensus... which is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right,”

    by Regina in a Sears Kit House on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 03:01:40 PM PDT

    •  I didn't even realize that antibiotics (8+ / 0-)

      increase weight in animals.  But I knew that antibiotic use in fish farming is because of overcrowding.  And where I live one can't even buy wild salmon anymore.  Many escaped fish produce young with wild ones.  Sigh.

      The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

      by DSPS owl on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 07:45:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  With beef cattle (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        the ranchers feed them antibiotics daily because the corn they are using to fatten them up quickly makes them more susceptible to infection.  The ranchers feed them antibiotics to keep them from getting sick.  (Cows have evolved to eat grass, not corn.  But if you feed them grass, it takes 2x as long to get them to market.)

        The NYT did an article about this.
        In 2011, drug-makers sold 30 million pounds of antibiotics for livestock — about 80% of all reported antibiotic sales that year. The rest was for human health care. Rather than healing sick animals, these drugs are often fed to animals at low levels to make them grow faster and to suppress diseases that arise because they live in dangerously close quarters on top of one another’s waste.

        My mother in law has a chronic MRSA infection.  Hers came from a hospitalization.  It's no fun.

        •  A little over a month ago, I switched to a largely (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          plant based diet for health reasons.  Veggies and fruit are the backbone of my diet with some healthy fats, grains, and a little meat added in.  I committed to only eating antibiotic free, naturally raised meat, so that winds up limiting our meat intake, since it can be hard to find and is expensive.  As a result, I have several meat free days a week.  

          Since we are all down with summer colds, though, tonight I prepared a big pot of free-range, medication free chicken soup with sweet potato dumplings.

        •  Corn does not make cattle sick (0+ / 0-)

          and there's nothing in that article that even hints that.
          Cattle are able to digest just about anything, including corn, and to say that they evolved to eat grass, not corn, simply ignores the beauty of the ruminant's digestive system.

          Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

          by skohayes on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 02:30:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Technically, corn is a grass ... (0+ / 0-)

          It's part of the family Poaceae, just like all other "true grasses", and it is genetically similar to all of these family members.

          •  If you say so. (0+ / 0-)

            A corn-based diet can create an acidic environment that is known to contribute to health problems, including diarrhea, liver disease, ulcers and a weak immune system. To address these issues, cows are continually fed antibiotics (increasingly making headlines and the subject of Robby Kenner’s latest project Meat Without Drugs).  Cows hopped up on drugs can lead to the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria that appear to be making modern medicine ineffective. The FDA approved the use of antibiotics in livestock in the 1950s after studies showed that animals that got the drugs in their feed put on more weight in less time than animals on a
            traditional diet.

            Also, cows are ruminants--multiple stomachs are built to eat grass and process the nutrition offered in that grass.

            Bottom line:  the chemicals fed to the cows to keep them healthy-ish are passed on to humans who eat their meat.

            •  No, they are not passed on to humans (0+ / 0-)

              They have done studies in numerous countries to test that hypothesis and all of those studies found no or very slightly (to the point of statistical insignificance) higher levels of chemicals in grass-fed cow meat as corn-fed/antibiotic-used cow meat.

        •  I don't know where (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          you're information comes from, but it leaves out some important facts that are conveniently ignored by those who have an ax to grind.  Consider this;

               Dr David Barber, a USDA veterinary researcher, published an article in the May 15, 2001 Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. In it he estimated that in the US the total weight of food producing animals at 134.6 billion pounds, and humans at 40.1 billion, 77% vs 23%. Just on a pound- for-pound basis, he found that humans and pets used 10 times more antibiotics than farm animals.

          This ratio hasn't changed all that much.  Also, antibiotics are NOT fed to "suppress diseases that arise because they live in dangerously close quarters on top of one another's waste".  This lie has been repeated so often by the Animal Rightists that it is now accepted as the truth.  Why don't you go talk to a livestock producer?  They actually know what they're doing.   AR publications are written by some idiot who has never raised a calf, puppy, lamb, etc from start to finish, and wouldn't know a prolapse from thrush.

          •  A corn diet (0+ / 0-)

            can also give a cow acidosis. Michael Pollan bought a steer and followed it through it's life cycle and documented it very helpfully so I don't have to go talk to a livestock producer. NONE of the ranchers feel good about feeding corn to their cows but they can't make a living at it by raising cattle on grass.

            Unlike that in our own highly acidic stomachs, the normal pH of a rumen is neutral. Corn makes it unnaturally acidic, however, causing a kind of bovine heartburn, which in some cases can kill the animal but usually just makes it sick. Acidotic animals go off their feed, pant and salivate excessively, paw at their bellies and eat dirt. The condition can lead to diarrhea, ulcers, bloat, liver disease and a general weakening of the immune system that leaves the animal vulnerable to everything from pneumonia to feedlot polio.

            Cows rarely live on feedlot diets for more than six months, which might be about as much as their digestive systems can tolerate. A sustained feedlot diet would eventually ''blow out their livers'' and kill them. As the acids eat away at the rumen wall, bacteria enter the bloodstream and collect in the liver. More than 13 percent of feedlot cattle are found at slaughter to have abscessed livers.

            What keeps a feedlot animal healthy -- or healthy enough -- are antibiotics. Rumensin inhibits gas production in the rumen, helping to prevent bloat; tylosin reduces the incidence of liver infection. Most of the antibiotics sold in America end up in animal feed -- a practice that, it is now generally acknowledged, leads directly to the evolution of new antibiotic-resistant ''superbugs.'' In the debate over the use of antibiotics in agriculture, a distinction is usually made between clinical and nonclinical uses.

            •  You seem to be making the case that corn is fed (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              exclusively.  It's not.  It is accompanied by hay, silage, and other roughage which is how bloat is prevented.  Rumensin prevents coccidiosis and aids in the appetite which, in turn, means less days on feed because they gain faster.  Tylosin helps prevent abscessed livers, again, less days on feed.

              400 pound calves entering a feedlot stay for at least 10 months, if not longer, and do very well on the rations.

              Micheal Pollan makes a lot of great sounding arguements.  Too often, in my opinion, he has figured out an answer and then backtracked for supporting data.

              •  You're making my points for me. (0+ / 0-)

                Rumensin (aka monensin) is an antibiotic.
                Tylosin is an antibiotic.

                By the time a modern American beef cow is six months old, it has seen its last blade of grass for the rest of its life. As soon as they wean, they spend the first six months out on the pasture with their moms, nursing, nibbling grass. The mom is converting the grass's protein that's turning into milk for the animal, doing the way they've done it for millions of years. We take them off grass. We put them in pens, called backgrounding pens, and we teach them how to eat something that they are not evolved to eat, which is grain, and mostly corn.

                You start giving them antibiotics, because as soon as you give them corn, you've disturbed their digestion, and they're apt to get sick, so you then have to give them drugs. That's how you get in this whole cycle of drugs and meat. By feeding them what they're not equipped to eat well, we then go down this path of technological fixes, and the first is the antibiotics. Once they start eating the [corn], they're more vulnerable. They're stressed, so they're more vulnerable to all the different diseases cows get. But specifically they get bloat, which is just a horrible thing to happen. They stop ruminating.

    •  Antibiotics kill bacteria (0+ / 0-)

      That's it.

      Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

      by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 02:50:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  AS far as you know. Ask someone about Chlorine. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        churchylafemme, Van Buren

        Kills germs... whitens clothes and in gas form it can kill humans as 2 of my friends found out when they died in a pit while doing work at a waste water plant. Antibiotics aren't magical they are a chemical compound that has one effect that is recognized which does not preclude other effects. Sneering at those who look to see what other effects overuse of this particular group of chemicals doesn't advance anything.

        Fear is the Mind Killer...

        by boophus on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 08:15:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We have (0+ / 0-)

          more than enough scientific evidence to justify curbing the rampant use of antibiotics for livestock, yet the food and drug industries are not only fighting proposed legislation to reduce these practices, they also oppose collecting the data. Unfortunately, the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, as well as the F.D.A., is aiding and abetting

        •  I'm just going with established science (0+ / 0-)

          on the issue. Various compounds have been studied for decades, we know what antibiotics do.

          Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

          by skohayes on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 02:35:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Reminder to All (32+ / 0-)

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    by JekyllnHyde on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 03:05:33 PM PDT

  •  See people? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VL Baker, elwior, nathanfl, weck, Kevskos

    This is why I don't worry about overpopulation. Given time, there'll be some antibiotic-resistant scourge that'll wipe out billions, a la Black Death v2.0!

    And this is why I support the idea of laboratory-grown meat. It's a win-win for everyone...EXCEPT the livestock industry. They're the ones that'll be partly responsible for the aforementioned future plague so...fuck 'em.

    •  highly unlikely (0+ / 0-)

      simply because there's too many competing and conflicting factors. You'd need human intervention to make that happen.

      That said the over use of antibiotics needs to end as we are effectively wasting a finite supply of bullets shooting at the sky.

    •  There is already (0+ / 0-)

      an antiobiotic resistant strain of gonorrhea in the world.  Apparently epidemiologists have been sounding the alarm on that one for many years.

  •  Oh gawwwwwd... (17+ / 0-)

    Campylobacter. I was hospitalized for a week because of that bacteria!

    The whole two weeks of the illness was hell. Looks so cute in the photo, but watch out!

    Great diary, I've been hearing more about how much the biota in our gut affect health.

  •  Fecal transplant - (16+ / 0-)

    as disgusting as it sounds, is a way to introduce greater diversity in gut flora. They've found that thin mice have a different kind of flora than obese mice, and that if you implant fecal matter from the thin mice into the obese mice, the obese mice lose weight. This has also been observed with lap band patients.

    I don't know if this procedure is being done by anybody yet, but it might be a safer and healthier way of losing weight.

    I see you drivin' 'round town with the girl I love / And I'm like / Please proceed, Governor. - Dave Itzkoff

    by Jensequitur on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 03:36:48 PM PDT

    •  not eating meat laced with antibiotics seems (15+ / 0-)

      much easier.

      Macca's Meatless Monday

      by VL Baker on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 03:39:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure, but how? I've got a chicken-killing dog. (9+ / 0-)

        And a rabbit-killing dog. (They're the same dog.) I don't know what would happen if I started raising chickens and rabbits, but he seems like a predator to me.

        And the other option is just not to eat meat, but it's hard to be organic and vegetarian if you're poor.

        I see you drivin' 'round town with the girl I love / And I'm like / Please proceed, Governor. - Dave Itzkoff

        by Jensequitur on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 03:47:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  I *DID* have to click on your link (7+ / 0-)

            right before dinnertime . . . :-)))

            Curiously, a bean burrito was on my menu anyway . . . only yours are much better-looking. :-)

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 04:16:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Be careful with beans... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            In some people (my youngest nephew, for one) beans can trigger a gout attack.  With me, beans can cause my bunions where the gout is the worst to ache, but it's not so severe I can't get buy with like half a dozen bites of them - just not very much.

            I've not yet figured out my gout trigger aside from not drinking enough water, but I can tell you that a gout attack hurts worse than childbirth labor.  My first attack was so bad I couldn't walk on my right foot, but both feet were swollen so bad they felt like the skin was about to burst, so I ended up calling an ambulance and going to ER - this was less than 24 hrs. after I was released from the hospital for kidney failure.

            I have numerous food allergies, so I eat what I can and try not to eat out because invariably restaurants have things that cause three-day migraines and projectile vomiting (MSG, sage, green peppers, onions, and an assortment of other foods I have enough sense not to even buy, let alone eat, like jalapeno peppers, for instance - where I lived in another state the neighbor cooked stuffed green peppers and I ended up with a three-day migraine just smelling them in the next apartment; I wouldn't dare try to eat that gawdawful smelly concoction that smells like shit to my nose - ditto onions that I've never been able to stand the smell of since I was a young child).

            So, while my "diet" is bland, at least I no longer have three-day migraines and projectile vomiting.

            I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

            by NonnyO on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 10:32:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Aaargh! "get by" - not 'get buy' (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Preview is my friend, preview is my friend, preview is my friend....

              I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

              by NonnyO on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 10:33:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I feel for you! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Aged cheese gives me migraines, and I have some food allergies that give me hives.

              It's a real pain to eat out.

              Women create the entire labor force.
              Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

              by splashy on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 05:40:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You have my empathy! (0+ / 0-)

                There are so few places I can eat out I've given up unless it's something simple like a salad bar where I can add individual ingredients I can eat.  Even for what should be simple things I have to be careful.  I used to be able to trust getting French toast with a side of bacon and orange juice at Perkins and not have to give special instructions about leaving out ingredients I can't eat.  No more.  They changed the bread and it's something wholly inedible.  Barf, barf, barf!!!

                I despise my boring and bland diet..., but the tradeoff is not getting sick - which I can readily live with (I'm old, so the less time I spend sick, the better)..., and I've had too many trips to ER for one shot of gynergen in one arm for the migraine and one shot in the other arm of some kind of anti-nausea med, then home to sleep for 12 hours and wake up pain-free.  Back in those days I was unaware of the connection between food allergies and my migraines.

                Much later, after injection tests up and down my arms for various pollens (my skin's too sensitive and gives off false positive readings), patch tests for the makeup (I broke out in a rash from hypoallergenic tape on my back), and armed with several books the allergy specialist told me to obtain and read (I did), I learned how to 'home test' for food allergies, and from that point forward I could trace backward to foods that were probable triggers, fast, then try small amounts, and if I got a reaction from the suspected allergen, eliminate it from my life and add it to the list of things I can't eat.

                Truly, it's lucky I live alone.  Between various foods, substances, and chemicals (especially those that have chemical perfumes that hang in the air like skunk spray), I couldn't stand to live with me.

                I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

                by NonnyO on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 11:16:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  It costs less to be vegetarian (10+ / 0-)

          No need for expensive ready prepped meals from Whole Paycheck. Get a slow cooker from a garage sale or second hand store and cook up a bunch of beans. Or cook lentils.
          Tofu from an Asian store or even a supermarket is very cheap and makes quick dinners.

          The secret to healthy tasty peasant cooking (peasants all over the globe have been making healthy cheap meals for thousands of years, and yes it tastes good) is making good use of local ingredients in season. Check out DIET FOR A SMALL PLANET for food combinations - corn and cheese or eggs, beans and corn, brown rice and soybeans.

          Get some books out of the library on Spanish, Italian, Greek or Moroccan cooking and expand those horizons. Buon gusto!

          •  to be fair (10+ / 0-)

            you dont need to be a vegetarian to avoid ready-prepped meals from whole foods.  i love my meet and home cook 90% of our meals - despite working night shifts at the hospital, i get up at 1500 (or 0300 AM for you daytime folks) just to make sure my wife and kid come home to a hot, home cooked meal.  it also doesnt take long to cook meat, i stir fry stuff mostly and chopping meat up in thin slices not only make it cook faster and lets sauces penetrate the meat better, but it allows me to stretch 1/2lb - 1lb meat across a meal that feeds three of us as well as gives lunch to us the next day.  that's usually because i cook a lot of veggies and frequently include the meat as a garnish.

            •  Another secret of good peasant cooking (6+ / 0-)

              Is ways to stretch a small amount of meat across many plates.
              Won tons, ravioli, couscous, stews, stir fries and baked bean dishes are all answers to the question posed by many a peasant mother:
              "I have eight hungry people, the produce of my garden, my storecupboard and one small chicken. What do I make for dinner?

              •  antibiotics in that meat? that's what this diary (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                nathanfl, JayDean, greenearth

                is about

                Macca's Meatless Monday

                by VL Baker on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 05:17:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  and its a valid point (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Catesby, duhban, greenearth

                  though lets not pretend that veggies aren't hosed down with pesticides, though given your credibility and passion about this topic, i'm sure you've done the research and have found out that it isn't an issue.  i haven't done the research or read reports so i am not feigning ignorance, just wallowing in it.

                  there are reports about meat, especially at big box retailers, colonized with MRSA, and the last report i read showed 85% of meat at wal-mart and target having MRSA, though i cannot seem to find this report.  in response, i have been trying to buy less meat and higher quality meat.  i am lucky to live in north carolina where finding awesome local meats is no problem at all, but when i lived in florida, that was a big problem.

                  btw, thanks for your reporting on these topics.  i know it is not easy to try to give us meat-eaters to give up our roasted flesh.

                  •  My dog got a bacterial (5+ / 0-)

                    infection from sniffing around coyote scat.

                    It attacked all his skeletal muscles rapidly.  He almost died except for this one incredible vet who not only diagnosed him correctly but put him on a seriously aggressive treatment.

                    My point is, wherever food is grown you are going to find wildlife defecating.  And they have some horrible diseases.

                    So whatever food you choose, please always cook it properly.

                  •  They also use antibiotics (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    on fruits and vegatables.

                    Antibiotics have been used since the 1950s to control certain bacterial diseases of high-value fruit, vegetable, and ornamental plants. Today, the antibiotics most commonly used on plants are oxytetracycline and streptomycin. In the USA, antibiotics applied to plants account for less than 0.5% of total antibiotic use. Resistance of plant pathogens to oxytetracycline is rare, but the emergence of streptomycin-resistant strains of Erwinia amylovora, Pseudomonas spp., and Xanthomonas campestris has impeded the control of several important diseases. A fraction of streptomycin-resistance genes in plant-associated bacteria are similar to those found in bacteria isolated from humans, animals, and soil, and are associated with transfer-proficient elements. However, the most common vehicles of streptomycin-resistance genes in human and plant pathogens are genetically distinct. Nonetheless, the role of antibiotic use on plants in the antibiotic-resistance crisis in human medicine is the subject of debate.

                    Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

                    by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 03:02:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Soy products make me not feel good (0+ / 0-)

            Unfortunately. I love them!

            Such is life...

            Women create the entire labor force.
            Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

            by splashy on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 05:43:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Since meat isn't "laced" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Susan G in MN, recspecz

        with antibiotics, you're pretty safe eating meat  from animals raised in the US.

        Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

        by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 02:52:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fecal translants are being done but FDA correctly (8+ / 0-)

      is requireing an approved protocol (IND) because of the real danger of passing pathogenic bacteria, viruses, and parasites along with the hopefully better microbial flora.

      Tea Baggers Unite and follow that lemming.

      by OHdog on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 04:23:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i had a pt have this (7+ / 0-)

      done in australia.  she's an american but was suffering from incurable cloistriduum difficile toxin and after years of continuous diarrhea went to australia to have this done and was cured of cdt.  not sure how effective on a spectrum it is, but in her case it took this extreme measure.

    •  My dad and sis were discussing the exact same (6+ / 0-)

      procedure as a treatment/cure for Crohns disease,  that the reintroduction of a wide range of normal bacteria in the gut seems to eliminate the symptoms in the Crohns patient.

      If love could have saved you, you would have lived forever. &

      by weck on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 04:34:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Strange that I was just hearing about this (8+ / 0-)

      I believe on an NPR program.   They interviewed a woman who was experiencing constant diarrhea to the point that her life and health was in danger.

      She laughed when a doctor suggested a fecal transplant, but said what the hell do I have to lose and tried it.  It worked almost immediately according to the person who tried it.

      Hey, whatever works.  

      In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

      by Sixty Something on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 05:04:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It has been done for severe C. dificile infections (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eric Blair, greenearth, splashy

      I've heard that it's being investigated for other things as well.

      Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
      ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

      by FarWestGirl on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 06:41:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They have not been used for weight loss AFAIK (3+ / 0-)

      but fecal transplants have been used successfully in humans for other purposes.

      I'm truly sorry Man's dominion Has broken Nature's social union--Robert Burns

      by Eric Blair on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 07:36:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's been tried on people with IBS (0+ / 0-)

      That is laying them out. I have read some articles in Scientific American about that. One woman had it done with a sample from her husband. Fixed her right up!

      Women create the entire labor force.
      Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

      by splashy on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 05:39:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We are really playing with fire (12+ / 0-)

    when it comes to our overuse of antibiotics and with our appetite for an endless supply of cheap meat.  

    Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

    by Mark Mywurtz on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 04:43:57 PM PDT

  •  Would be interesting if they found a correlation (9+ / 0-)

    between eating meats grown with antibiotics and obesity in the people who eat them, versus people who eat meats without antibiotics...

    Republican threats amount to destroying the present if we don't allow them to destroy the future too. -MinistryOfTruth, 1/1/2013

    by sleipner on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 04:47:36 PM PDT

  •  Some of this troubles me. (4+ / 0-)
    Although prophylactic antibiotic use in livestock has been in use since the 1950s, how it works has long been a mystery.
    Antibiotics in meat products is one of the most heavily tested things about the products. There are decades of research about them.

    Then the diary goes on to conflate the antibiotics used in livestock and antibiotics taken by humans, then jumps off that to a link between gut microbes and obesity. What?

    I smell food woo.

    The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

    by lotusmaglite on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 04:56:27 PM PDT

    •  just read the study, link is included n/t (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      weck, JayDean, greenearth, Brecht

      Macca's Meatless Monday

      by VL Baker on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 04:59:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The problem (5+ / 0-)

        ...isn't in the study. It's in conflating antibiotics in animals we end up eating and antibiotics we take. There is a difference, and a wealth of research on the matter. Unless I totally misread the quote in my previous comment, "how it works" has most certainly not "long been a mystery".

        The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

        by lotusmaglite on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 05:04:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  To attempt to clarify (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greenearth, Alexa, poco, Avilyn, highacidity

          Until very recently, it has not been clear why the low doses of antibiotics given to animals increase the growth rates of the animals.  The doses are not high enough to cure bacterial infections so it is not simply that the animals given antibiotics are healthier. Recently it has become clear that the antibiotics increase growth rates by altering the intestinal bacteria of the animals.  These data are from serious, peer reviewed scientific publications. It has been known for some time that giving millions of animals low doses of antibiotics is an almost perfect recipe for selecting antibiotic resistant bacteria.  Antibiotic resistance genes on plasmids in the bacteria in animal guts eventually make their way across species into bacteria that are pathogenic in humans.  In some cases transmittal of resistance genes may relate to eating treated animals (particularly given current factory farming practices), but they can move into human pathogens by other routes.  An additional factor is that antibiotics are grossly over prescribed for humans in this country and many, but not all, other countries and that selects for antibiotic resistant pathogens and eventually pathogens that are resistant to multiple antibiotics.

          Somewhat separately, although it is not established as fact to my knowledge, it is quite possible that medical use of antibiotics could alter human gut flora resulting in a gut microbiome that contributes to obesity.  Alternatively, but not necessarily mutually exclusively, human diets rich in fat might, independent of antibiotic usage,  result in a very different microbiome from a low fat diets.

          I'm truly sorry Man's dominion Has broken Nature's social union--Robert Burns

          by Eric Blair on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 08:01:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They've known how it works for a long time (0+ / 0-)

            Antibiotics given to animals prophylactically work because they can prevent a lot of minor diseases from taking hold, therefore the animal gains weight faster.
            A cow's gut is a "beneficial bacteria" wonderland, you might kill some off using ABs, but they are quickly replenished.

            Recently it has become clear that the antibiotics increase growth rates by altering the intestinal bacteria of the animals.  These data are from serious, peer reviewed scientific publications.
            Please cite these studies, because the one the diarist linked to in the diary has nothing to do with low level antibiotics in animal feed. That was extrapolated by the author of the article:
            Although STAT has been in use since the 1950s, how it works has long been a mystery. But evidence is mounting that it might be due to antibiotics killing microorganisms that populate animals’ guts. - See more at:
            The article then goes on to talk about the study of gut flora in human beings.
            No connection there except the one made by the author of the article.

            Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

            by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 03:22:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Link to the research, then (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greenearth, VL Baker

          That would be a useful way to participate in the discussion, rather than lashing out at the diarist.

          •  Since when (0+ / 0-)

   pointing out fallacies, unsupported claims, and inconsistencies "lashing out at the diarist"?

            I did not assert the positive; the burden of proof is not on me. I'm sure the diarist can handle me addressing the claims made in the diary. It's not like I attacked the diarist personally.

            The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

            by lotusmaglite on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 10:33:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Really? You know why cattle grow larger when (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme, greenearth

      given heavy doses of antibiotics?

      My understanding is that cattle do grow larger when given antibiotics, and the reason is a not well understood if understood at all and is a main reason for giving them antibiotics in the first place.

      Fatter, faster, cheaper. Hell of a food concept.

      "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandies

      by Pescadero Bill on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 06:27:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My understanding (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slouchsock, duhban, skohayes that antibiotic use in cattle has been studied for decades, and the diary suggests it's all a big mystery. The diary also conflates antibiotic use in cattle and in humans and uses that conflation to misrepresent a link between gut microbes and obesity, and claims MRSA is a product of antibiotics used in cattle, when there is no consensus on this at all.

        Unsupported claims, using bait-and-switch "evidence", reaching conclusions based on insufficient evidence - these are the problems, here, not a knowledge I never claimed to posses.

        The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

        by lotusmaglite on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 06:55:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  MRSA came from hospitals in the 60s (0+ / 0-)

          Staphylococcus aureus has a genetic region that was extremely sensitive to mutation that gave rise to penicillin and methicillin resistance.

          The article the diary links too, and the CDC report linked as well, focuses on Salmonella strains resistant to cephalosporins.

          The diarist makes an MRSA connection independently by referencing a letter from a Congresswoman (Slaughter, NY-25) that shows zoonotic transer of MRSA from livestock to owners.

          I think the diary would be more coherent if the first paragraph wasn't plagiarized from one of the links without proper quotations.

          I disagree a bit with the Congresswoman, though. Safe handling of meat and poultry products should prevent Staph, as well as Salmonella, infections. Washing hands, preventing cross-contamination, proper handling and storage and refrigeration.  However, food tainted with staph is the leading cause of "food poisoning", since the TOXIN does not degrade at normal cooking temperatures (165F). Staph-tainted food should be a concern for anyone, but whether it is the resistant or non-resistant strain, it still dies in fire.

  •  "think of it as evolution" (0+ / 0-)

    ... "in action"

  •  The study doesn't come to a conclusion that (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, FarWestGirl, skohayes

    antibiotics in meat caused the differences in the microflora. In fact, it's not clear how many people in either group ate meat. Antibiotics in meat definitely contribute to creating drug-resistant bacteria. But the connection to obesity is far from clear.

  •  Comments (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    My understanding is that the animals were fed antibiotics to make up for the effect on their immune systems from being fed corn.  I'm not clear where the antibiotic-obesity link comes from; humans usually don't take antibiotics all that often, even counting in the tendency for doctors to overprescribe them.  And I don't think the levels left in meat are going to directly affect humans -- the problem is that all of this "prophylactic" treatment is a good factory for resistant bugs.

    Although irrespective of how you parse it, feeding antibiotics to cows does not seem like a wise practice.  (In the short run, I'd be worried about the growth hormones, which damn well are not a good thing to be ingesting; if I want to get juiced, I'll become an MLB power hitter.)

    •  No, not at all (0+ / 0-)

      Sub therapeutic antibiotics are used to promote weight gain, because the calf is not wasting resources fighting off disease.
      Corn is not a large part of feedlot diets. Even "corn-fed beef" only requires a finishing diet of 50% corn, and corn in cattle feed is not just the grain, but also the stalk and leaves. Here's a finishing diet fed at a local feedlot that is about 40% corn:
       photo cattlefeed.jpg

      You can see there is very little actual grain in there and a whole lot of roughage, which cattle easily digest.

      As for humans not taking antibiotics all that much, the problem with human doctors overprescribing antibiotics is just as big of a problem as the overuse of antibiotics in food animals.

      NEW YORK — U.S. doctors are prescribing enough antibiotics to give them to 4 out of 5 Americans every year, an alarming pace that suggests they are being overused, a new government study finds.

      Overuse is one reason antibiotics are losing their punch, making infections harder to treat. The report released Wednesday gives the first detailed look at usage of these medicines in every state and finds it highest in the South and Appalachia.

      "It sounds high," said Keith Rodvold, a professor of pharmacy practice at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

      There is no scientific consensus on an appropriate level of antibiotic prescribing. But some experts said the new study's results are disturbing, and that rates are probably excessive even in the states with the lowest antibiotic prescription levels.

      Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

      by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 03:55:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's incredibly rare when beef (4+ / 0-)

    get raised without antibiotics. If the meat is tested and deemed "antibiotic free" at the time it's processed, it can be labeled "without antibiotics." So, growers stop giving the drugs to the livestock a set amount of time before they're slaughtered.

    Unless the meat is certified by a process that explicitly forbids antibiotics, the growers used them when they raised the cattle.  

    This practice still contributes to antibiotic resistance, even if there are no antibiotics present at slaughter time.

    Breathe in. Breathe out. Forget this, and attaining enlightenment will be the least of your problems.

    by rb137 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 05:45:46 PM PDT

    •  Depends on which part of the country you're in.. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rb137, Eric Blair, greenearth, skohayes

      Most of those locally who raise beef raise them on pasture and none I know of spend money on either antibiotics or hormones. It would be an added expense for them and would increase the amount the animals had to be handled and the number of employees needed. The only time most of these guys run them in is to worm and change pastures. And they probably don't worm as often as they really should.

      But western Oregon has very productive pastures. Feed lots and finishing with grain change the equation substantially.

      Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
      ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

      by FarWestGirl on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 06:52:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry (6+ / 0-)

        I had a ranch in rural central Oregon, and most of my neighbors were small ranchers, raising cattle on their pastures in addition to their day job.

        Every single one of them fed corn to supplement the pasture and every single one of them fed antibiotics.  You are aware that the antibiotics are fed in their food, not an injection, right?

        Antibiotics are extremely cheap, and all it takes to feed a herd of even 100 head is a bobcat, a silo and one man.

        The cattle come in on their own to get the corn, and require no extra handling.  It just requires a feeding fence.

        Adding antibiotics as well as corn to the feed, I am told, makes for a major increase in income.

        Deworming does require handling, and is a completely different matter.

        These ranchers are trying to make money any which way they can, and antibiotics give a massive return on investment.

        Anyone telling you different I think is shining you.

        I did not feed antibiotics to my livestock.  That was because I owned a sheep dairy.

        •  We're out n the coast and most of the people I (3+ / 0-)

          know don't bother with either. Some make or buy hay in the winter, but none grain. Again, it's an added expense, and they already own the land that they're pasturing on. And most of these guys aren't running more than 20 head, but I do know 2 operations, one with Angus and one with Pinzgaurs(sp?), that run a hundred or more units. Neither grain them. I keep telling them they need to market to Eugene and Portland based on being purely grass fed, but marketing isn't their thing.

          Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
          ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

          by FarWestGirl on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 07:43:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We are in Northern CA. Our friend has a 5 acre (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greenearth, FarWestGirl

            site. We have raised 2 steers. No antibiotics unless they get sick. So far, no antibiotics. Both steers finished on pasture and various grain. It is some expensive beef in the end. Our neighborhood rancher on the island - has had a herd of buffalo get out of control. So last year he offed two of them. We split half with our friend. ohhhh mann! That is some excellent meat. No antibiotics here. I am to the point that I do not want to buy store bought beef or pork.

            if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

            by mrsgoo on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 09:07:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •   Buffalo are really hard on fences. But very good (0+ / 0-)

              eating. Nice of your neighbor to share.

              And totally with you on store bought meat, (and eggs). A lot of locals buy sides or quarters from their friends when they slaughter. Also, contract sales are getting more common with the CSA trend.

              Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
              ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

              by FarWestGirl on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 08:18:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  If they had to supplement (0+ / 0-)

          their pasture every single day with corn, they were either very poor farmers or very bad farmers.
          A well managed farm doesn't need to supplement their pasture, although minerals and vitamins are often provided to balance their diet.
          Adult cows on pasture shouldn't need antibiotics, either, except as individuals.
          I raised cattle for 11 years in Virginia, and if we had run our herd like that, we would have been out of business in three years, instead of being a family business that had been passed down 3 generations.

          Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

          by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 04:09:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  A lot of the beef where I live (4+ / 0-)

        comes from central Oregon. Most of them use antibiotics. Some of them don't use the drugs as a rule, but they'll administer them preventatively if any of the livestock gets sick -- which happens fairly often.

        But I think what I'm saying doesn't really contradict what you're saying here. I think the language on some grass fed beef says that antibiotics are never administered. I don't think that grass fed equals no antibiotics, though.

        I should really read up on those rules. I never buy grass fed beef, so I don't know them.  

        Breathe in. Breathe out. Forget this, and attaining enlightenment will be the least of your problems.

        by rb137 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 07:28:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Our pastures are so lush that most of the locals (4+ / 0-)

          don't grain at all, but most feed hay in the winter when the forage is growing less. Feed lots or supplementing with grain changes the equation completely.

          I realize that we're in an unusual situation here. Most of what's commercially available comes from the methods described in the diary. But I have lived in a couple of places where cattle were just turned out and pretty much ignored unless they got sick or were going to auction or slaughter. Most of my personal experience is with small operations where they were raising for their own table and some extra money, not big commercial operations. Or they were range cattle and ran the hills.

          Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
          ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

          by FarWestGirl on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 07:51:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, even small farms use antibiotics (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            pretty regularly. Big factory farms don't have a monopoly on it. When I buy beef (for my husband, usually -- and he dislikes grass fed beef, which is why I don't buy it), I only look at stuff from local, small farms. A lot of them guarantee that the antibiotics are gone when the stuff is processed, but they don't promise that antibiotics were never used.

            Breathe in. Breathe out. Forget this, and attaining enlightenment will be the least of your problems.

            by rb137 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 08:21:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  If the animal is sick, (0+ / 0-)

          then antibiotics are not being used "preventatively".
          They're being used therapeutically, to treat disease.
          Also, it's not grass feed beef that never get antibiotics, it's organically raised cattle.
          That doesn't mean, by the way, that the organically raised cattle get less sick than conventionally raised cattle, it just means they aren't treated with antibiotics when they do get sick.

          Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

          by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 04:26:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If animal A is sick, and you (0+ / 0-)

            give antibiotics to animal B to keep it from getting sick, that is preventative.

            Breathe in. Breathe out. Forget this, and attaining enlightenment will be the least of your problems.

            by rb137 on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 02:49:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks VLB (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yoduuuh do or do not, greenearth

    This is a great diary.  

  •  I'm afraid to eat anything (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, churchylafemme, greenearth

    anymore...what's left??

  •  it's entirely too early to be drawing that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:


    The study you cite is just a single piece of evidence and it's going to take a few more to actually make a strong link between obesity and diversity in your gut.

    Further even then that doesn't inherently mean your conclusion is right.

    Don't get me wrong we badly overmedicate but I am not sure how strong the connection is between that and obesity is.

    •  I suggest you take it up with these people... (0+ / 0-)
        Emmanuelle Le Chatelier1, 41   
          Trine Nielsen2, 41   
          Junjie Qin3, 41   
          Edi Prifti1, 41   
          Falk Hildebrand4, 5   
          Gwen Falony4, 5   
          Mathieu Almeida1   
          Manimozhiyan Arumugam2, 3, 6   
          Jean-Michel Batto1   
          Sean Kennedy1   
          Pierre Leonard1   
          Junhua Li3, 7   
          Kristoffer Burgdorf2   
          Niels Grarup2   
          Torben Jørgensen8, 9, 10   
          Ivan Brandslund11, 12   
          Henrik Bjørn Nielsen13   
          Agnieszka S. Juncker13   
          Marcelo Bertalan13   
          Florence Levenez1   
          Nicolas Pons1   
          Simon Rasmussen13   
          Shinichi Sunagawa6   
          Julien Tap1, 6   
          Sebastian Tims14   
          Erwin G. Zoetendal14   
          Søren Brunak13   
          Karine Clément15, 16, 17   
          Joël Doré1, 18   
          Michiel Kleerebezem14   
          Karsten Kristiansen19   
          Pierre Renault18   
          Thomas Sicheritz-Ponten13   
          Willem M. de Vos14, 20   
          Jean-Daniel Zucker15, 16, 21   
          Jeroen Raes4, 5   
          Torben Hansen2, 22   
          MetaHIT consortium42   
          Peer Bork6   
          Jun Wang3, 19, 23, 24, 25   
          S. Dusko Ehrlich1   
          Oluf Pedersen2, 26, 27, 28   
          Eric Guedon29   
          Christine Delorme29   
          Séverine Layec29   
          Ghalia Khaci29   
          Maarten van de Guchte29   
          Gaetana Vandemeulebrouck29   
          Alexandre Jamet29   
          Rozenn Dervyn29   
          Nicolas Sanchez29   
          Emmanuelle Maguin29   
          Florence Haimet30   
          Yohanan Winogradski29   
          Antonella Cultrone29   
          Marion Leclerc29   
          Catherine Juste29   
          Hervé Blottière29, 30   
          Eric Pelletier31, 32, 33   
          Denis LePaslier31, 32, 33   
          François Artiguenave31, 32, 33   
          Thomas Bruls31, 32, 33   
          Jean Weissenbach31, 32, 33   
          Keith Turner34   
          Julian Parkhill34   
          Maria Antolin35   
          Chaysavanh Manichanh35   
          Francesc Casellas35   
          Natalia Boruel35   
          Encarna Varela35   
          Antonio Torrejon35   
          Francisco Guarner35   
          Gérard Denariaz36   
          Muriel Derrien36   
          Johan E. T. van Hylckama Vlieg36   
          Patrick Veiga36   
          Raish Oozeer37   
          Jan Knol37   
          Maria Rescigno38   
          Christian Brechot39   
          Christine M’Rini39   
          Alexandre Mérieux39   
          Takuji Yamada40       

      'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 11:10:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and I suggest you stop stalking me (0+ / 0-)

        this is now 2 separate diaries that have nothing to do with each other in the last couple minutes along.

        Go harass someone else.

        •  asdf... (0+ / 0-)
          replying to you is not stalking you (0+ / 0-)

              But please keep making a fool out of yourself with your false claims and scientific ignorance

              by duhban on Sun Sep 08, 2013 at 08:15:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent | Reply to This | Recommend Hide ]

          'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

          by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 11:52:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  bullshit (0+ / 0-)

            1. you have demonstrated absolutely no knowledge of science

            2. you are in fact following me around just to harass me

            Elfling asked you to stop, I sincerely suggest you heed that advice.

            •  asdf... (0+ / 0-)
              replying to you is not stalking you (0+ / 0-)

                  But please keep making a fool out of yourself with your false claims and scientific ignorance

                  by duhban on Sun Sep 08, 2013 at 08:15:28 PM PDT

                  [ Parent | Reply to This | Recommend Hide ]

              'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

              by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 12:09:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Which part of your own words don't you... (0+ / 0-)


              I'm in these diaries, and if I see you posting stupid shit, I'll reply to it. If you have a problem with that, stop posting stupid shit.

              'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

              by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 12:12:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Without endorsing anything duhban's saying, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                in this thread, you're the one who looks like more of a dick.

                I don't know how reasonable the stalking/harassing complaint from duhban is. But his first comment here was a reasonable opinion, civilly stated. Instead of addressing his opinion, you came back with an obnoxiously long comment, which said nothing (argument from authority; no substance). When he objected, you made three replies in twenty minutes, two of which were the same taunting blockquote.

                I find duhban's first comment unconvincing: he doesn't articulate a strong rationale, and he provides no evidence. But your replies just assume there's nothing there, and proceed to dickishness. I can't see what purpose this serves, except to mock and irritate duhban.

                "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                by Brecht on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 12:27:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  duhban expressed doubt in the diarist's... (0+ / 0-)

                  conclusions, which after reading the paper it was based on, I concluded was nothing more than contrarian with nothing to back it up.

                  I merely suggested to duhban that if he had a problem with the diary (hence the paper), he should direct his queries to the eighty-two* co-authors of the peer reviewed paper (argument from authority; plenty of substance if giving a list of people to talk to is anything).

                  * Fuck me. I've never seen 82 co-authors on anything, ever.

                  The fact that the comment was long (I dispute the obnoxiousness of it) is merely testament to the large number of people who have chosen to put their name to the research. If duhban has a problem with their work, he should be talking to them, and not shooting the messenger as he so often does.

                  Assuming that 'there's nothing there' when it comes to duhban is actually a very efficient starting point.

                  'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                  by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 12:51:48 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I went to read the abstract, figures, and editor's (0+ / 0-)

                    conclusion of that paper. From what little we can see of it (and it being in Nature), it does look like strong research.

                    Still, in this thread, duhban appeared to be engaging in good faith dialog. He may have been unduly skeptical. I wouldn't say contrarian - he did post upstream as well.

                    Clearly, there is more history between you and duhban than I've seen. But your list of names was dismissive and unhelpful. You didn't respond to his comment, you knocked it sideways.

                    I merely suggested . . . he should direct his queries to the eighty-two co-authors . . . plenty of substance if giving a list of people to talk to is anything
                    Since you're only being constructive, would you suggest that duhban phone, fax or email them? No, you were just being dickish - there's no substance in 82 names we've never heard of. I could find you 82 scientists who have penned climate-denial research.

                    If you'd wanted to talk to duhban, you'd have replied to the points he made. If the points he made seem mostly pointless to you, try ignoring them, and just walking away. If he's starting fights or breaking rules, call him on it.

                    All you did here is try to make duhban look stupid, and stir up a little unnecessary pie. You're either being disingenuous, or dense.

                    And since this is now just a waste of my time, good night.


                    "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                    by Brecht on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 01:25:26 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Extremely small sample size (0+ / 0-)

                      of one population. As the abstract states, it was only 123 non-obese individuals and 169 obese ones, all from Denmark.

                      Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

                      by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 04:33:22 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If you have small samples, but a huge difference (0+ / 0-)

                        between the groups, you can still get a strong conclusion. In this figure, they say the difference in bacterial growth, between samples, occurred at significant levels. They are confident this wasn't just a fluke.

                        "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                        by Brecht on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 09:59:42 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  well good to know you are happy to (0+ / 0-)

                keep on being a dick.

                Good day

      •  A sample size of (0+ / 0-)

        123 non-obese and 169 obese Danish individuals does not a conclusive study make, no matter how many contributors there are to the paper.

        Your beliefs don't make you a better person. Your behavior does.

        by skohayes on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 04:30:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, they are working on creating something (0+ / 0-)

    That you can ingest, or have as an enema, that will restore those microbes.

    Women create the entire labor force.
    Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 05:34:29 AM PDT

  •  Something I do not understand... (0+ / 0-)

    I have been reading about this but something does not make sense.

    I am 60 and have been slender all my life. I most likely have whatever bacteria to make me so. But isn't that inefficient?

    The person who can store nutrition instead of just passing it through the digestive system is making better use of it than my body is.

    Is my ability to just pass off calories akin to taking laxatives?


    •  While this research is somewhat promising (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The statistical variance of caloric differences in resting metabolic rates for individuals is about 200 calories, or the equivalent of a Snickers bar.

      The differences in gut flora might explain this small gap between individuals. And some people's body do undertake fevers when caloric intake exceeds "expected" levels, when they eat on a consistent time schedule.

      But one's weight is most influenced by their energy expenditure and energy intake throughout the day. You're more than likely thin because (1) you don't eat like a horse and (2) you keep a moderately active lifestyle.

    •  may affect energy level too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      You may be better at metabolizing food into energy, which then enables you to maintain a higher level of activity. Many of us who tend to store food on/in our bodies also complain of fatigue or just low energy.

      So no, unless you have tapeworm or eat an enormous amount of roughage, you're probably not just eliminating more food unused.

      On the other hand, I've always felt that my ancestors (on my father's side, eastern European Jewish immigrants) were the ones who would have survived periodic famines and "food insecurity." When my father was dying of cancer, his chief anxiety was that he was losing weight so fast -- in his culture that was a really bad sign.

  •  of course just so its clear (0+ / 0-)

    None of these problems would exist if we used antibiotics in a sane manner. This problem is caused solely by their horrific over-use.

    "Trust not the words of a poet, as he is born to seduce. Yet for poetry to seize the heart, it must ring with the chimes of truth."

    by kamrom on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 07:51:08 PM PDT

  •  You are (0+ / 0-)

    what you eat. On so many levels.

    I'm really glad to see this issue getting some public traction, as I've been ranting about it for years. Whenever possible, I buy my minute amounts of meat as well as veggies from organic producers and/or local organic farmers.

    There is no question that there is an unseen world. The problem is, how far is it from Midtown and how late is it open? -- Woody Allen

    by Mnemosyne on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 08:03:02 PM PDT

  •  also hand sanitizers and all that? (0+ / 0-)

    Logically it seems to me that the obsession with anti-bacterial soaps, cleaning chemicals, etc. etc. would also have the effect of reducing people's internal bugs. That's the whole point of using them, to kill off things like e.coli that can make people sick. But I presume they also kill off the bacteria that make us healthy.

    I have switched out my personal care products and house-cleaning products, and am spending more time barefoot and gloveless digging in my garden, to invite in a greater variety of bacteria.

    I suppose that chlorinated drinking water also kills things off in my gut, but that one I'm not giving up quite yet.

  •  Actually... (0+ / 0-)
    low doses of antibiotics to expedite animal growth.
    I don't believe antibiotics expedite animal growth. The reason they need them is because livestock are not allowed to eat grass. They get fed a diet of grain, which encourages growth, but is NOT natural to their diet. So they get sick and need...antibiotics.
    There are lots of vegetarians and vegans who say it's cow farts that are causing global warming (at least in part). The reality is that grasslands, where cattle once fed, are being turned into corn production for GMO corn, for corn syrup, and, yes, cattle feed.
    I always wonder if we'll ever get back to good farming practices. Modern farming practices use pesticides, waste water and make animals sick. Go back to the natural way and our food would be healthier...and so would we! It might be a little more expensive, but worth it.

    Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

    by MA Liberal on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 05:58:13 AM PDT

  •  The underlying problem is meat consumption. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VL Baker

    I think it's irresponsible to eat meat all the time. I'm no moralist: if you want to eat some now and then, I'm fine with it. I have some kind of meat at least once every couple of months myself. But there are just so many problems in America, at many levels, linked to our gross overconsumption of meat (and our gross underconsumption of vegetable calories). If your day isn't complete without meat, then I'm sorry, but I believe that you are driving these problems, including the overuse of antibiotics.

  •  cowboys (0+ / 0-)

    govt may have made a mistake by restricting use of antibiotics by livestock raisers. ranchers i know used to carry combiotic in the truck. this is a broad spectrum antibiotic that's "good for what ails 'em."

    when doctoring a sick steer, a shot of combiotic was the last thing we did before turning it back out on the range, and it worked well. i kept it in my fridge at home to doctor dogs, goats,etc. now, only vets are supposed to use it but cattlemen can't be calling a vet every time they find a steer with an injury.

    the antibiotic wears off long before the range cattle reach the feed pens. not so the prophylactic doses given to feed cattle and [i assume] milk cows. this is what's wrong and the govt did the exact opposite wrong thing by restricting range stock and not feed stock.

    here in southern arizona, cattlemen still visit mexico for antibiotic but it would be better if it was still legally available for range doctoring. it should be more restricted for feeder stock but since when did what's right win over what makes bigger profits?

  •  Antibiotics (0+ / 0-)

    I grew up in the '50s and early '60s with constant respiratory infections. Back then, doctors gave antibiotics for everything and nothing. I used to go to a doctor who gave an antibiotic at every visit "just in case."

    I now have problems because some antibiotics do not work. The last thing I need is antibiotics in food.

  •  I'm skeptical (0+ / 0-)

    I don't see the link between antibiotics in cattle and the reduction of gut flora in humans.  One can imagine there might be one, and it might be a reasonable hypothesis to look into, but I don't see anyone making a valid non-speculative link in this or the original post.  

    What am I missing? Or am I missing nothing and this is just woo-ish?

  •  A side issue is cost. (0+ / 0-)

    If the livestock industry paid what humans do for these antibiotics, the price of meat would be astronomical.  They could clean up the livestock industry or help people with health care costs by initiating price parity for veterinary and human medicines.  Of course, a ban would work, but I'm not holding my breath for the FDA to do the right thing.

    With each of these reports, I am happier that I quit eating meat 40 years ago.

  •  from my lowly cow vet perspective (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Regina in a Sears Kit House

    There should be no antibiotics in either meat or milk and both are tested for antibiotic residues. The issue is when the normal organisms found in the animal gut become resistant to the antibiotics being fed and the feces contaminate meat at slaughter or humans acquire those bacteria through animal handling. Those resistant bacteria can potentially become part of, or interact with, human flora.

    We have been 'trans-faunating' patients in veterinary medicine for decades. Those cattle with the 'window in their sides' are not simply for peeking into the marvelous fermentation vat that is the rumen, but also allow for easy access to rumen liquor – the microbe rich liquid – to draw off and dose to a sick animal. If I don't have a fistulated cow on hand, I identify a healthy 'volunteer' and draw some rumen contents off with an esophogeal tube, then I reverse the process in the patient. The effect can be quick and lifesaving.

    The biota of the rumen is complex. 'Antibiotics' can be any compound which alter the population and some of them are important for human medicine and others are not. Engorgement on corn is, in effect, an 'antibiotic' because the subsequent rapid fermentation can so acidify the rumen and alter the population of microbes that no 'good' microbes survive and the result is catastrophic for the animal. So farmers gradually bring cattle onto high-energy feeds and, even then, it can be tricky.

    Low dose antibiotics in production animals alter the gut microbe population to favor those microbes that process nutrients more efficiently, or in the case of the rumen, produce by-products more easily absorbed or utilized by the animal. Low dose antibiotics can also improve growth when animals are raised in large groups as a prophylactic against subclinical pneumonia and other diseases. They grow better because they aren't as sick as they might have been without and they grow better because the gut microflora are changed to a more efficient population.

    I am making no statement on whether these production practices are good or bad, only commenting on what I know about the logic behind it. Why it comes as such a surprise to the human medical community that a similar phenomenon might occur in humans is what interests me.

  •  Yet another reason (0+ / 0-)

    So glad I'm vegetarian.

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