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A frightened fellow or female will happily adopt a policy or a pistol to relieve apprehension.  Perhaps, that it why after the events of September 11, 2001, Americans, panicked and the power elite prospered.  As the Twin Towers fell, the people cried out for protection.  Congress gleefully approved the Patriot Act; and as a nation, we pursued a course of action that was and is contrary to Constitutional principles.  Even early on, Americans said,  "Farewell to privacy.  Hello to arms."
...Continue reading Farewell To Privacy. Hello To Arms. by Bcgntn (Jul. 14, 2008). [my bold]

Navy Yard shooter Aaron Alexis driven by delusions


The government contractor who killed 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard last week was driven by delusions that he was being controlled by low-frequency radio waves and scratched the words “End the torment!” on the barrel of the shotgun he used, the FBI said Wednesday, offering new, chilling details of the attack.

Valerie Parlave, assistant director in charge of the FBI’s Washington Field Office, said that Aaron Alexis, 34, began the shooting knowing he would be killed. A search of Alexis’s electronic devices, she said, indicated that he was “prepared to die during the attack and that he accepted death as the inevitable consequence of his actions.”

…Continue reading Navy Yard shooter Aaron Alexis driven by delusions

Join us below the fold to discuss the nexus of privacy and the right to keep and bear arms. What are your biggest concerns about medical privacy in this context? This is an open thread.

President Obama Speaks at a Memorial for Victims of the Navy Yard



President Obama also spoke about the need to prevent future tragedies like the one at the Navy Yard, reiterating that we cannot become complacent. “We can’t accept this,” he stated.

   I do not accept that we cannot find a common-sense way to preserve our traditions, including our basic Second Amendment freedoms and the rights of law-abiding gun owners, while at the same time reducing the gun violence that unleashes so much mayhem on a regular basis. And it may not happen tomorrow and it may not happen next week, it may not happen next month -- but it will happen. Because it's the change that we need, and it's a change overwhelmingly supported by the majority of Americans.

    By now, though, it should be clear that the change we need will not come from Washington, even when tragedy strikes Washington. Change will come the only way it ever has come, and that’s from the American people. So the question now is not whether, as Americans, we care in moments of tragedy. Clearly, we care. Our hearts are broken -- again. And we care so deeply about these families. But the question is, do we care enough?

...Continue reading Remarks by the President at the Memorial Service for Victims of the Navy Yard Shooting

..Continue reading President Obama at the Memorial Service for Victims of the Navy Yard Shooting: “We Can’t Accept This”

When I was searching through Daily Kos for the articles about the DC v. Heller (2008) and McDonald v. Chicago (2010) Supreme Court decisions I found this interesting diary by an author who had her finger on the pulse of our country five years ago. Bcgntn highlights the tension between privacy rights and the right to keep and bear arms as articulated in Heller.

Another tragic suicide-massacre last week, at the Navy Yard in Washington D.C., adds to our national trauma, and reveals again, one of our biggest challenges. How do we honor the confidentiality we value in the patient-doctor relationship?

The shooter, Aaron Alexis was known to have violent behavior, had been discharged from the Navy in 2011, and had recently sought mental health services. The Washington Post reported on Thursday some evidence and images released by the FBI. There appears to be abundant evidence suggesting that the treatment Alexis was receiving was inadequate. At best it was only partially effective to relieve his delusions and paranoia.

The clues about Alexis’s mental state and motivations come from inscriptions found on his Remington 870 shotgun and documents found on his electronic devices. In one document, he wrote: “An ultra low frequency attack is what I’ve been subject to for the last three months, and to be perfectly honest, that is what has driven me to this."

…Continue reading Navy Yard shooter Aaron Alexis driven by delusions

Our concerns about keeping guns out of the hands of "high risk individuals" runs straight up against our cherished notions of doctor-patient confidentiality. Calls for mandatory reporting of mental health treatment will likely intensify as part of efforts to prevent "the mentally ill" from having access to firearms. Such arguments may appeal to "common sense," even though the vast majority of people who seek mental health services are not violent. The risk is already evident; people who need mental health services may forego treatment when they perceive that they could stand to lose their job, their career, and/or their right to keep and bear arms when they seek mental health services. We must be cautious about unintended consequences of mandatory reporting, that would discourage people from accessing healthcare services or foregoing treatment that they need.

One of the questions that echos through my mind when I think about Aaron Alexis is What if he had started treatment years ago? I imagine he would have lost his security clearance and would probably have had to change careers. In addition, with the stigma that still surrounds mental illness, it's easy to understand that someone might try to cope with symptoms on their own rather than tell their doctor.

As calls grow louder to "do something" about gun violence, do we care enough, as a civil society, to carefully balance the civil rights of all involved?

Farewell To Privacy. Hello To Arms.


by Bcgntn (Jul. 14, 2008)

The Courts and Congress have come to believe there is reason for fear.  Enemies are everywhere.  Those who wish to do us harm are in our homes.  They talk to us on our telephones.  Some sashay in through our computers.  "Evil doers" are ubiquitous in the United States.  Our open society places the public at risk.  We, the people, must defend ourselves.  Thus, the Supreme Court and Congress have given the government and us the means.  The highest judicial body in the nation has made it possible for the common man to protect himself with a pistol; Legislators provided the President ethereal firearms.  Indeed, individuals and the Commander-In-Chief were bequeathed more than either had asked for.  In 2008, we have entered the Summer of Separation.  In the United States we say, "Farewell to privacy.  Hello to arms."

Absorbed in fear, Americans have detached themselves from the original intent of the United States Constitution.  We the people have embraced weaponry and rejected our right to privacy.  The populace, with assistance from Congress willingly chose to forfeit the Fourth Amendment.  authentic freedoms were  disemboweled.  If the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act  (FISA) stands, and there is no reason to think a Bill signed into law by the President of the United States and each House of Congress would not be fully implemented, the press and the people will no longer have unfettered access to information.  Nor can they disseminate data without intense scrutiny.  Chris Hedges, a twenty year veteran Foreign Correspondent for The New York Times, speaks to a truth that he lived and now fears will die.

   The new FISA Amendments Act nearly eviscerates oversight of government surveillance.  It allows the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to review only general procedures for spying rather than individual warrants.  The court will not be told specifics about who will be wiretapped, which means the law provides woefully inadequate safeguards to protect innocent people whose communications are caught up in the government's dragnet surveillance program.

    The law, passed under the guise of national security, ostensibly targets people outside the country.  There is no question, however, that it will ensnare many communications between Americans and those overseas.  Those communications can be stored indefinitely and disseminated, not just to the U.S. government but to other governments.

    This law will cripple the work of those of us who as reporters communicate regularly with people overseas, especially those in the Middle East.  It will intimidate dissidents, human rights activists, and courageous officials who seek to expose the lies of our government or governments allied with ours.  It will hang like the sword of Damocles over all who dare to defy the official versions of events.  It leaves open the possibility of retribution and invites the potential for abuse by those whose concern is not with national security but with the consolidation of their own power.

Trepidation has long been a tool for intimidation.  A frightened fellow or female will happily adopt a policy or a pistol to relieve apprehension.  Perhaps, that it why after the events of September 11, 2001, Americans, panicked and the power elite prospered.  As the Twin Towers fell, the people cried out for protection.  Congress gleefully approved the Patriot Act; and as a nation, we pursued a course of action that was and is contrary to Constitutional principles.  Even early on, Americans said,  "Farewell to privacy.  Hello to arms."

...Continue reading Farewell To Privacy. Hello To Arms.

The Daily Kos Firearms Law and Policy group studies actions for reducing firearm deaths and injuries in a manner that is consistent with the current Supreme Court interpretation of the Second Amendment.  We also cover the many positive aspects of gun ownership, including hunting, shooting sports, and self-defense.

To see our list of original and republished diaries, go to the Firearms Law and Policy diary list. Click on the ♥ or the word "Follow" next to our group name to add our posts to your stream, and use the link next to the heart to send a message to the group if you have a question or would like to join.

The Firearms Law and Policy group adopted Wee Mama's and akadjian's guidance on communicating. Most of all, be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.

Originally posted to Firearms Law and Policy on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 10:00 AM PDT.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA, VAGV - Veterans Against Gun Violence, and notRKBA.

Poll

Considering what is best for the country as a whole, is it better to:


26%6 votes
73%17 votes

| 23 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for medical privacy (11+ / 0-)

    that helps to improve access to mental health services.

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 06:29:54 AM PDT

  •  Pretty poor poll choices (5+ / 0-)

    Why not go full authoritarian and give the option for no privacy and no guns? Conversely, yes to privacy and yes to guns?

    •  Completely agree (5+ / 0-)

      It is a Faustian bargain if those are our only two choices.

      Thanks for dropping by Kasuro. What other Q&A would you suggest for a poll of Daily Kos readers on this topic?

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 10:53:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  For this poll in particular? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DefendOurConstitution

        Just as I suggested. YN, NY, YY, NN. 4 options, runs the whole range. Could throw in 2 more- Abstain with comment below and the ever popular gun poll option- pie. Because pie > cake. Always- especially cheesecake which is technically a pie.

        But due to the only 2 poll options which I feel is pushing to a certain result, I cannot in good faith make a selection.

        •  Thanks, that's not what I was asking (4+ / 0-)

          I'm sincerely asking for a different poll Q and different answers.

          What would you ask people if you want readers to engage the nexus of medical privacy, barriers to accessing mental health care, and preservation of the individual RKBA?

          What Q&A will prompt people to think carefully about the trade offs? What would you ask them?

          IMHO, anything that will cause people to forego care, or to lie to their doctors is the wrong direction.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:11:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In it's raw essence (4+ / 0-)

            I think that the poll above with expanded options is the question to ask.

            Barring that, the current situation is what we need to have. Currently, a person has be judged in court as having a mental illness. This preserves Due Process which I believe that most of us hold dear.

            There have been a few good diaries recently on mental illness and the sigma of. Eliminating that sigma and preserving Due Process would go a long way.  

            Apologies if my thoughts are dis-jointed. I have a bit more to say but have to get ready for dialysis so will be off line for most of the night.  

  •  Interesting choices you offer here (4+ / 0-)

    I see the gun lobby has already weighed in, but the status quo is killing people now and I find that position untenable. Seems kind of ironic, that fear of terrorism and crime -- of suffering and death, really -- ends up hurting and killing people; it makes exactly what was feared come to pass.

    Guns don't kill people. It's impossible to be killed by a gun. We are all invincible to bullets, and it's a miracle. -- this message brought to you by the Night Vale chapter of the N.R.A.

    by tytalus on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 10:36:29 AM PDT

    •  Yes, indeed (4+ / 0-)

      We have met the enemy, and the enemy lies within us. It is our fear. Choosing fear over love. The GOP wants us all to be afraid.

      Corporate marketing in many industries relies on fear to help us part with our hard earned money.
      I'm not cute enough, so I'll buy...
      I'm not sexy enough so I'll by...
      I'm not rich enough, so I'll work stupidly long hours and never see my kids...

      I'm not safe enough, so I'll buy...

      After Hurricane Sandy, NYC went 8 days without a single murder. Yet, the NRA is hugely successful using hurricane apocolypse fears to sell guns.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 10:58:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for continuing to insist that we have this (6+ / 0-)

    conversation, Lilith.
    I chose the second option in your poll without having to give it a lot of thought. I am anti-gun so of course that would be my choice.
    I then took a closer look at the first option and it becomes even more important for us to continue to talk about guns and mental illness.
    Before seeing  this diarythis morning, I would have said anybody diagnosed (or even suspected) of mental illness should not have access to guns. The diarist made me question myself. Is it really mental illness which is to be blamed? Or is it that this racist society latched onto this meme so as to protect whiteness? To make a distinction between "black and brown thuggery" and white purity? You know, black and brown men commit these crimes because it is in their nature to so do, while white men only commit these crimes when they are sick.
    Is the problem mental illness and the desensitization which comes as a by-product of years of playing violent, bloody video games?
    Both Adam Lanza and Aaron Alexis were said to be addicted to violent video games. Is that the nexus which leads to psychotic behavior? On the part of white men, that is.
    It must make them so mad to apply the same standard to Alexis who was certifiable unstable. Btw, I am not buying that he murdered those people because he was insane. He had too many other options.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    If I may, Lilith:

    Announcing New Time for
    Support the Dream Defenders Friday Diaries
    7 pm EDT
    6 pm CDT
    5 pm MDT
    4 pm PDT

    Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

    by JoanMar on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 10:52:44 AM PDT

    •  Thank you for the link, I'll check it out later.nt (5+ / 0-)

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:06:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Really? (3+ / 0-)
      Btw, I am not buying that he murdered those people because he was insane. He had too many other options.
      You are imposing a judgement to rationally choose better options on a person who it seems pretty clear was extremely delusional and incapable of rational thinking?

      “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

      by Catte Nappe on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:19:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe. (2+ / 0-)

        I once knew someone who was mentally challenged. He died in a fire that he caused. Other than my grandma, he was the sweetest, most loving, most protective, kindest person I  ever knew. Pardon me if I think that there is more at work than just mental illness that would motivate someone to go kill others.

        Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

        by JoanMar on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:39:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mentally challenged (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          That suggests someone with mental retardation. Mental illnesses, especially schizophrenia (which seems likely with the reports of hearing voices) is a whole other category. While folks suffering from that are not, in general, dangerous, there are circumstances when what the voices are telling someone to do can lead to dangerous actions, and/or the belief in the imminent threat caused by paranoid delusions could make it seem "rational" for someone to take dangerous actions to protect themselves from the perceived threat.

          “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

          by Catte Nappe on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 12:07:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I don't like armchair diagnoses but I agree (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe

        with your assessment of Aaron Alexis' story. It seems there is quite a bit of evidence that he may have been a high functioning mentally ill person, struggling with some symptoms of schizophrenia for a long time. I'm not a doctor and am not suggesting that is a correct diagnosis. I'll offer this TED talk by Elyn Saks, to point out that we value medical privacy, and so we really have no idea how many people around us are receiving effective treatment for mental health problems.  And because they receive timely treatment they can lead rewarding and productive lives. It could be your neighbor, your cousin, your classmate, your doctor, your lawyer, your colleague... As I pointed out in the diary, while the massacre is unacceptable, I so have a lot of sympathy for a person like Alexis who may have delayed seeking treatment because he knew it might be legally fired, or because he knew it would end his career. That is tragic, and I think it is one of the really challenging conundrums at the intersection of healthcare privacy/employment discrimination/gun rights.

        Elyn Saks: A tale of mental illness -- from the inside
        (iframe src="http://embed.ted.com/... width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" scrolling="yes" allowFullScreen)(/iframe)

        I'm not sure what's missing from the url or why the video doesn't embed. I changed the pointy brackets to parentheses so anyone can help me see what is missing or wrong with the code.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Sat Sep 28, 2013 at 08:43:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  BATFE Form 4473 and the NICS (5+ / 0-)

    already cross that "medical confidentiality" line.

    http://www.atf.gov/...

    It's always good to see one Kossack labeled as "the gun lobby" and disparaged right from the get-go.

    Should there be a rule?  Suggest it to Kos:

    "NO comments against more gun-control for 100 comments, or 24 hours, whichever comes last."
    That should ensure comment in a dead-thread, or sufficiently down-thread to be ignored by the causal visitor, or person seeking to cite a DKos diary.  
    A victory for Message Purity!

    The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

    by 43north on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:00:28 AM PDT

  •  Two Issues Here (5+ / 0-)

    I see two issues here:
    1) The right to privacy in our personal communications (letters, telephone, email, etc) under threat from national spying agencies
    2) The right to privacy of our personal medical information under threat from efforts to keep guns out of the hands of "high risk individuals".

    In my opinion, both efforts to remove privacy protections are misguided.

    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:13:27 AM PDT

    •  I must admit I am simultaneously (4+ / 0-)

      horrified and immensely pleased with electronic health records.

      It makes so much of healthcare coordination much, much easier. It also means that any resident/doctor/staff working there can access any aspect of my health history or treatment in a super speedy few keystrokes. They are not limited to viewing just the information for their specialty.

      It's a blessing for the quality of care, but it's carries huge potential for exposure when those systems are hacked or access by someone who wants to traffic in stolen medical data.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:19:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  These are not mutually exclusive (8+ / 0-)

    Had there been background checks and tracking of Mr. Alexis' criminal actions with firearms in the past, his mental health condition would be irrelevant.

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:14:50 AM PDT

  •  This, never happened. (4+ / 0-)
    As the Twin Towers fell, the people cried out for protection.
    Before the names of the known dead, and missing FDNY Firefighters was made available - every channel was trying to out perform the other in jingoistic flag-waving and calls for ACTION!!!
    Twenty talking-heads per hour, spewed conjecture.  Whipped by the newsinfotainment media mavens, the message was delivered 24/7 for weeks on-end:
    "General/Congressman/Senator/Governor/Mayor/Dog Catcher THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DEMAND ACTION!!! Do we bomb? Nuke? Invade?  WE NEED TO STRIKE NOW!!!
    Sure we do.  Otherwise the news cycle and related rating spike dies, and we go back to watching Nick at Nite.
    Trading tragic comedy, for a situation comedy.

    I couldn't find a single person who said:  
    Let's go to war in Afghanistan or Iraq.  I really-really want to send my spouse and/or child to some foreign land to die or come home missing pieces of themselves.

    Let's gut the Constitution, as I haven't had my genitals fondled-enough at the airport, since joining the 'Mile High Club' a long-long time ago.

    Were there people who questioned striking the Taliban and Al Qaeda?  Yes.  My Society of Friends, friends.

    Few others were against bombing Bin Laden's house.  Very few.

    We were given direct intelligence from a trusted ally in Afghanistan.  Who paid for that with his life.

    Those of us who paid attention, realized this was a continuation.
    Event 1, also intended to drop the Towers, failed.
    Back to the drawing board.
    Of course, the USA, (the DOJ, the President, Congress and American people) believed that the "stupid fucking arabs" could never pull anything like this off.

    It's not like they invented math and engineering.  /s

    As a KIA FDNY member texted me:  

    "The other shoe, dropped.  We're rolling.  Talk to you later."
    Later, has proven to be a long time coming.

    The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

    by 43north on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:26:22 AM PDT

    •  OT - Why did we roll over? (4+ / 0-)

      I was here through all of it. I'm with you and don't know a single person who wanted to go to war, and plenty who marched against it.

      And then we all sort of just went back to the task of sorting our lives out and picking up the pieces and trying to move on with our own families and jobs and so on.

      Why did "we the people" roll over so easily?

      I couldn't find a single person who said:  
      Let's go to war in Afghanistan or Iraq.  I really-really want to send my spouse and/or child to some foreign land to die or come home missing pieces of themselves.

      Let's gut the Constitution, as I haven't had my genitals fondled-enough at the airport, since joining the 'Mile High Club' a long-long time ago.

      I probably shouldn't hijack my own diary but your comment makes the question seem relevant to the issue of stochastic terrorism and individual/community mental health after a traumatic event.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 11:34:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why? We didn't have an option. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joy of Fishes, LilithGardener

        Blackwater, KBR, Halliburton, United Technologies and a host of other names we don't know, as it's above our paygrade to know - were already largely pre-positioned to take advantage of The New American Century.

        This was think tanked to death in the '80s and early '90s.
        Justification?
        We looked globally at Sarin Gas attacks.  
        Jonestown-type cults of personality.  
        Branch Davidians.  
        Bader-Meinhoff.
        The Munich Olympics.
        Aryan Nation.
        Nation of Islam.
        Still - small groups, of nebulous or marginal impact on the nation, it's infrastructure and institutions as a whole.

        Pan Am 103 and Lockerbie.  Crap.  Reagan bombed Libya. Can't use that one.
        Arabs bombing the WTC.  Yeah, we're on to something.  
        Oh, snap.  They are ALL in jail.  We'll claim perpetual win, and I'm in a Beltway corner office with people calling me "Sir".

        Timothy McVey.  Now, finally - we have something to start the basis of dealing with all threats, foreign and domestic.  
        We should start building a security apparatus empire.
        Once the machine is built, it would be a shame not to use it.

        If the 9-11 attacks didn't happen, there would have been some other event that would have lined the pockets of those in the know.  A modern-day Lusitania.

        The argument over the Continuing Resolution?  Government "shut-down"?
        Never impacts the "black hole" funds going to the multi-billion dollar-per year security apparatus.

        That appropriation, is above the paygrade of Congress, and the POTUS.

        The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

        by 43north on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 01:35:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What I heard wasn't "go to war". I heard "glass". (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KVoimakas, Joy of Fishes

        I heard a lot of "Just glass the place." and similar.
        As in, drop a nuke or twenty and the heat turns the sand to glass.

        •  That is really sad, and disappointing nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Sat Sep 28, 2013 at 07:49:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's a wake up call is what it is. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KVoimakas, FrankRose

            We are human, no less and definitely no more.

            Humans are, by definition, still animals. Take a good look at our absolute closest genetic relative - the chimpanzee.

            Here, take this into consideration:
            http://www.nytimes.com/...

            Most days the male chimps behave a lot like frat boys, making a lot of noise or beating each other up. But once every 10 to 14 days, they do something more adult and cooperative: they wage war.

            A band of males, up to 20 or so, will assemble in single file and move to the edge of their territory. They fall into unusual silence as they penetrate deep into the area controlled by the neighboring group. They tensely scan the treetops and startle at every noise. “It’s quite clear that they are looking for individuals of the other community,” Dr. Mitani says.

             When the enemy is encountered, the patrol’s reaction depends on its assessment of the opposing force. If they seem to be outnumbered, members of the patrol will break file and bolt back to home territory. But if a single chimp has wandered into their path, they will attack. Enemy males will be held down, then bitten and battered to death. Females are usually let go, but their babies will be eaten.

             These killings have a purpose, but one that did not emerge until after Ngogo chimps’ patrols had been tracked and cataloged for 10 years. The Ngogo group has about 150 chimps and is particularly large, about three times the usual size. And its size makes it unusually aggressive. Its males directed most of their patrols against a chimp group that lived in a region to the northeast of their territory. Last year, the Ngogo chimps stopped patrolling the region and annexed it outright, increasing their home territory by 22 percent, Dr. Mitani said

            Like I have said before - taking away one method of violence will not dent the total. Other methods will become prevalent and behaviors will shift to a form that is more compatible with the new method.

            England has seen this in action. Take away the guns, knife attacks pick up the slack and behaviours shift, either inventing or merely spreading the Glasgow Smile along the way.

  •  Thank to LilithGardener and all the crew that (5+ / 0-)

    continue to research and inform us on the technical/legal side of firearms regulations (or lack thereof).

    “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    by DefendOurConstitution on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 12:08:02 PM PDT

  •  You ask "do we care enough, ... (5+ / 0-)

    ... as a civil society, to carefully balance the civil rights of all involved?"

    In my opinion, yes, there must be balance.  Release of some protected health information is already allowed under HIPAA - this is one such provision:

    Serious Threat to Health or Safety. Covered entities may disclose protected health information that they believe is necessary to prevent or lessen a serious and imminent threat to a person or the public, when such disclosure is made to someone they believe can prevent or lessen the threat (including the target of the threat). Covered entities may also disclose to law enforcement if the information is needed to identify or apprehend an escapee or violent criminal.

    http://www.hhs.gov/...

    So, some PHI can be released, but I do not know how that specific PHI is defined or whether it would be useful for assessing risk of gun violence for purposes of a background check for purchase or license.  Also unknown is whether the data system is sufficient for collection of the PHI and for seeing a "red flag" indicator at point of sale or license.  People more knowledgeable than I will need to weigh in on this, and I will loop back later to see how the discussion is going.  

    I applaud you for providing the forum for conversation on this important topic.

  •  We have nothing to fear... (4+ / 0-)
    The Courts and Congress have come to believe there is reason for fear.  Enemies are everywhere.  Those who wish to do us harm are in our homes.  They talk to us on our telephones.  Some sashay in through our computers.  
    If this is how the political class thinks, they need to adjust their meds.  But they should check under their beds and in their closets first.  When I was a kid, that's where I always assumed the monsters and extraterrestrials were hiding.
    •  LOL - very well framed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, Glen The Plumber
      If this is how the political class thinks, they need to adjust their meds.  But they should check under their beds and in their closets first.  When I was a kid, that's where I always assumed the monsters and extraterrestrials were hiding.
      There is plenty of evidence that something must be wrong with the water in the Capitol. I've heard they will be shutting off the taps in 4 days.

      /half snark

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 12:37:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tipped & rec'ed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener, Glen The Plumber

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 12:44:06 PM PDT

  •  No. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener, Shamash
    As calls grow louder to "do something" about gun violence, do we care enough, as a civil society, to carefully balance the civil rights of all involved?
    Historically, we don't care. As long as something gets done, meh, it doesn't matter. We infringe upon someone's rights, oh well. We're doing something. Believe it or not, I'm not just talking about the firearm side of things.

    You ever watch The Shield?

    CLAUDETTE WYMS-
    Al Capone made money by giving the people what they wanted. What people want these days is to make it to their cars without getting mugged. Come home from work and see their stereo is still there. Hear about some murder in the barrio, find out the next day the police caught the guy. If having all those things means some cop roughed up some s** or some n** in the ghetto... well, as far as most people are concerned it's don't ask, don't tell.
    •  I share your frustration with various (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber

      processes that rely on some kind of don't ask/ don't tell policy, such as private gun sales.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 05:57:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, not what I was saying at all. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrankRose

        My point was that the American people don't care as a whole.

        •  Your point was very clear, (I thought) (4+ / 0-)

          And I thought I read in your comment a frustration with the fact that many people don't care much, and are willing to look the other way, when someone else gets stripped of their rights.

          My comment was agreeing with you that too many people only want their own rights respected and don't care much when others' rights are denied.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Sat Sep 28, 2013 at 02:22:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then why even bother bringing up this? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FrankRose
            I share your frustration with various (1+ / 0-)
            processes that rely on some kind of don't ask/ don't tell policy, such as private gun sales.
            My frustration isn't with those processes. My frustration is with the American people as a whole, who are willing to give up freedom for security at the drop of a hat (or so it seems).
            •  Let's stay focused on the topic of the diary (4+ / 0-)

              rather than shifting off topic to ask why some Kossack is discussing this particular topic.

              The topic of the diary is the glaring contradiction in plain sight at the nexus of the individual right to RKBA and the right to medical privacy. A secondary topic is the weak or broken processes that exploit fear. It's not necessary to assume that people who disagree with one another have inferior values.

              Why did I specifically mention one process at this nexus?

              Private gun transfers between individuals, so called "private sales," remain subject only to an honor system, despite abundant evidence that handguns move easily from legal hands into criminal markets. The privacy and convenience of all gun owners is top priority in the USA. Thanks to RKBA activism (or obstructionism) there can be no national database of firearms, or of legal gun owners, such that each gun transfer is recorded. This is true even though the nexus of handgun transfers and gun violence is extremely well established.

              In stark contrast, the entire country is subject to a loss of medical privacy and is required to have their mental health records subject to inspection/repository in state and federal databases. This invasion of privacy is tolerated by all even though a majority of the country has NOT been convicted of any crime, does not own a gun and may have no interest in ever owning or carrying a gun. Fears about the loss of medical privacy very likely inhibits some people who need treatment from seeking care.

              Yet even though the vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent, all adults are subject to a loss of medical privacy. Mental illness still carries significant stigma. There is a long and well-established history of discrimination against people who are mentally ill or who have been treated for mental illness. And this surrender of privacy is required despite the majority of gun crime having no nexus to mental illness.

              Let me restate this in summary form. The privacy and convenience of both legal gun owners and criminal gun owners is prioritized over the medical privacy of all adults, most of whom will never seek to own a gun.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Sat Sep 28, 2013 at 05:21:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My original comment was on point with (0+ / 0-)

                this diary.

                You segued into putting words in my mouth.

                •  Am I mistaken? (0+ / 0-)

                  I thought my reply comment to your first comment was validating that we have some common ground concerns about this principle:

                  We infringe upon someone's rights, oh well.
                  I recognize and share your frustration with that general attitude.

                  And I find the casual way that people call for all of us to surrender medical privacy over mental health care to be very troubling. As I wrote in the diary, I think it's a problem because I think that it inhibits people from seeking care and might also dissuade them from being honest with their doctor if/when they do eventually seek help.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 01:43:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Sad and depressing. nt (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Glen The Plumber, LilithGardener

                “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

                by DefendOurConstitution on Sun Sep 29, 2013 at 01:51:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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