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The New York Times last week on it's parenting blog had a post by a transplanted mom titled A Park Slope Mom Raises a Hunter. I have to assume Park Slope is where Zsa Zsa Gabor of Green Acres fame came from, or if not there someplace within cab hailing distance.

Actually the story was kind of fun and kind of familiar. "Foodie moves upstate and takes a different look at hunting", in a nutshell.

Reading it I was reminded of a post I read by a Kossack a while ago whose son wanted to take up hunting with a school friend and his dad. It's not unusual now for the sons and daughters of non hunting non gun owning parents to want to hunt. I thought I'd jot down some ideas I had on the subject.


My daughter helps by holding a leg. Hunting and cutting up critters are very normal to young kids. It is after all the way we lived ever since coming down out of the trees. Notice all the camo everyone is wearing?

Hunting is not a simple quick or easy undertaking, especially if it's not something one has grown up with. Often mischaracterized as easy, often enough by those who tried and found it too hard, hunting takes a fair sized commitment of time. Think in years not hours.

One of the first hurdles is how to gain the knowledge of the very basics. Where to go? When? How do you turn a dead critter into wrapped packages in the freezer? The answers to most questions are fairly straightforward and sensible, but not if you don't know, and all situations are different.

Most important is a mentor. In the case of the linked article as well as the post by the fellow Kossackian they already had someone ready to act as a guide. The first mentor might well not be your ultimate one, but it's a start. Waterfowl or upland birds, big game or rabbits, there are quite a few types of hunting, and there are any number of ways of going about it.

Ignore politics. Most hunters (but not all) trend towards the R side of the political spectrum, also like about 90% of the public they really aren't political at all, that's just the team they happened to join because it's what you do where they come from. Chances are pretty good they won't discuss politics much, or religion, or sexual preference or any one of  many touchy subjects. Probably a good idea all around.

Take a hunter safety course. Take it with your kid, there will be many other parents in there doing the same. Hunter safety is usually taught by some of the most knowledgeable hunters in your state. If your kid is old enough to go hunting, he or she is old enough not to be embarrassed appearing with a middle aged non hunting mom or dad in public. The courses are almost free, usually ten or so dollars for ten or twelve hours. Much of the costs are covered by a tax all shooters pay. Take it twice, or five times from different people. Courses cover all the laws, all different types of firearms, safety, and many practical considerations.

Hunting is pretty safe. I read anecdotal fear mongering stories of accidents and fatalities, but back in the fact based world of statistics hunting fatalities due to firearms are so rare I've never found statistics for them. The CDC tells me maybe 200 accidental fatalities for firearms outside the home per year. Of those 200 a tiny fraction are probably from hunting. Over the next couple months around 13 million Americans will be out hunting, mostly with much larger caliber firearms than ARs or AKs, yet we manage not to shoot each other. It didn't used to be this way.

Hunter safety which all hunters have to take instills a culture of safety which sticks with most people forever. It's fairly obvious that unlike TV and movies, firearms really are potentially lethal, most people get that. There's an untrue stereotype of drunken hunters with firearms that just doesn't jive with what I see day in day out. The dangerous part is the drive to get there.

I've already run my mouth enough, paragraphs stretch down the page. Last thing I'll mention is that gun. In the NYT article the mom mentions her son might get a 22 for Christmas. Guns are a lot of fun, they are a precision tool and an integral part of hunting, but even more important is the knowledge that comes from being skillful at shooting. I hope that Park Slope mom's son shoots thousands of rounds through that 22, and that he has a safe place to shoot it.

Long zoom, small sensor, hand held. These speed goats are a long ways away.

Originally posted to Hunting and Fishing Kos on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 05:54 AM PDT.

Also republished by Liberal G Club.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I just don't think intentionally (9+ / 0-)

    inflicting pain on another living being is healthy. I think the Buddhists have it right on this, but I'm not going to drone on and on about it here.

    and I wait for them to interrupt my drinking from this broken cup

    by le sequoit on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:10:16 AM PDT

    •  Ever dumped your SO? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DaveinBremerton

      NT

      I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

      by DavidMS on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:49:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you a vegan? (11+ / 0-)

      If a hunter is a responsible hunter, they don't inflict pain.  Ever hear the phrases "didn't know what hit them" or "dead before they hit the ground"?   They're still dead, but it likely experienced less pain than factory farmed or circus animals.  

      I am not a hunter, nor would I ever shoot an animal unless it was for mercy or survival.     My husband is a hunter.  We've had many conversations about hunting and killing.  We each see it from our own ways, and I can respect hunting IF it meets the highest standards.  If its a bunch of drunks shooting up the woods, then I say let's arm the animals.

      I have three straight, white, male grandchildren; and I don't care if you think they're politically incorrect,

      by dkmich on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:06:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  dkmich - That is so much bullshit! (6+ / 0-)

        Hunters often take several shots to bring down an animal. If you hang around with hunters they'll boast about how long they followed the blood trail of a wounded animal, slowly bleeding to death.
           That's if the don't give up on catching up to the animal, which they often do.
           Many (most) hunters around here are overweight, somewhat drunk characters who pull their pickups off the dirt trail, maybe (or maybe not) set up a tree stand, and guzzle beer while waiting for a deer to come along. If they had to track something, or carry a deer more than about fifty feet, they'd need an ACLS ambulance standing by.
           In my youth, I would sometimes go hunting with my grandfather in extremely rural Kentucky, where squirrel meat and venison were a serious addition to the diet for the mountain farmers.
           That was long ago in a dirt poor region.
           Modern hunters that I've met don't hunt for meat. They're in it for "sport." They are, generally, degenerate sadists who revel in the feeling of power they get from killing an animal.

        •  I'm sorry but I just don't believe you (10+ / 0-)

          I think you're making it up. All of it. Just my opinion maybe, but we have no way of knowing do we.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:15:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Last December, my husband harvested (5+ / 0-)

            a gorgeous and very hefty white tail. It was probably among the largest deer ever taken on our friend's farm. (It's not a 'hunting' farm, like the ones where animals are penned inside a fenced area so that weekend warriors can drive up to a pre-assembled blind with a paid guide, and shoot at large bucks that are fed super-food to give them enormous antlers for that 'trophy' buck they'll pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for the sport of blasting at.) It's a working farm with several hundred domesticated sheep and a lot of wild turkeys and deer who either strut under or leap over the fences that are meant to keep the 'domesticated' farm animals on the property.
            Anyway, after most of the butchering was done, my husband discovered a broken off broad head (an arrow with razor pointed head) that had penetrated the deers skull from one cheek to the other. The arrow 'point' was broken off, so what remained was the last third of the shaft and 'feathers'. It had healed over, so that poor buck had probably been wandering around with the arrow through it's head for about 2 months. Somehow the arrow had missed it's brain and not damaged its jaw, so it had been able to eat and live a fairly normal life.
            Although, come to think of it, when my husband took his first shot, after the buck jumped the rail fence surrounding his field and stopped about 75 yards away, he missed. The buck startled and then ran straight towards him before veering off at an angle that gave my husband another perfect shot. Later, after discovering the arrow in his bucks head, we mused that the poor deer must have been hoping another shot would do the trick and put him out of his misery??? (Oh, my aching head).
            100% true story.


            Information is power. But, like all power, there are those who want to keep it for themselves. Aaron Swartz

            by Lisa Lockwood on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 01:29:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Good morning to you too. (11+ / 0-)

          There are assholes behind the wheel of a car that cause pain and death.   What's your point? All hunters are alike?   They always, never .....................   Generalize much?  

          My comment stands.  Hunting isn't inherently bad.  Hunting is lwhat you make it like most of life.  How a person hunts says more about them then hunting.     There are assholes everywhere - even on blogs -  that cause pain and death.  

          I have three straight, white, male grandchildren; and I don't care if you think they're politically incorrect,

          by dkmich on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:32:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  "Hunters often take several shots to bring down an (4+ / 0-)

          animal"

          In that case, you must support hunting with a semi-auto rifle with a high-capacity magazine.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:19:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  BAD hunters take several shots (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Victor Ward, pitbullgirl65, fcvaguy

            because they would rather shoot than hunt.  

            Good hunters pass the animal and the wound shot by to wait for the "right" or "kill" shot.   As good hunters who want the meat and respect the animal will tell you, the last thing they want to do is wound a deer and then spend hours tracking it miles deeper into the wounds, only to find it and have to haul 100 - 200 lbs of dead animal out of the woods on your back.    

            Sounds like you just know a bunch of assholes who hunt.

            I have three straight, white, male grandchildren; and I don't care if you think they're politically incorrect,

            by dkmich on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:47:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Hunting Pigs (6+ / 0-)

    I live in a very rural location, and the hunters around here are pigs.  

    The park their vehicles on land that is not their own.  They dump their trash (beer cans, fast-food and take-out wrappings, cigarette butts and wrappers, and yes, even bags of their household garbage) by the side of the road.  If they get a kill, they dress it right there and leave the bloody head, skin, guts, limbs, etc by the side of the road.

    And of course I can't walk in my woods knowing that armed, drunk, and trigger-happy fools are hiding out there, ready to shoot at anything that moves: deer, dog, or human.

    Who mentored these people?

    My brother's property borders the local hunting club.  They own hundreds of acres of wooded land.  Yet, for some reason, multiple hunting blinds appear yards from the property line, overlooking the deer trail that runs thru my brother's land.  The state law prohibits discharging a gun within a certain distance of a house, but that doesn't stop these law-abiding, responsible, safety-conscious (and too-frequently drunk) hunters.

    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:34:54 AM PDT

    •  Birds of a feather eh? (5+ / 0-)

      Sounds like your locals have found a kindred soul in you.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:41:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I noticed you forgot to mention beer (5+ / 0-)

        I notice that your brief diary on hunting forgot to mention beer.  

        Beer of course is as important and integral to hunting as it is to watching football.  During hunting season, the parking lot of the local packie store in early morning is jammed with SUVs and pick-ups sporting NRA stickers and gun racks.  And the cases of beer go into the SUVs and pick-ups, all carried by guys wearing hot orange and camo.

        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:18:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So nice to generalize from anecdotes (13+ / 0-)

          Saves a lot of thinking

          Happy just to be alive

          by exlrrp on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:34:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Talk to any proprietor (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Yoshimi, jqb, Lost and Found, poco

            Talk to the proprietor of any store that sells beer or alcohol in my town.  They will all tell you that hunting season is when they do their best business.  Even better than Christmas.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:53:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You can drink yourself drunk at night after (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Victor Ward, ER Doc, fcvaguy

              coming in from the woods, OR you can drink yourself drunk in the woods while hunting or while behind the wheel of a car.   As I said, how people hunt says more about them than hunting.  The people you describe I wouldn't associate with or hunt with even if I was a hunter.   I don't like drunks - anywhere.   Let me rephrase.  I don't like people who consume alcohol - not even a drop.  They think they're having a good time, and I think they're obnoxious.  

              My husband would not hunt on public lands for the reason you state.   The world is full of assholes and unfortunately there is no way to get rid of them.

              I have three straight, white, male grandchildren; and I don't care if you think they're politically incorrect,

              by dkmich on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:37:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I myself hate hunting season (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dkmich, jqb, historys mysteries, poco

                I myself hate hunting season.

                I love to walk the woods around my house, and watch the deer bounding away over deadfalls, and hear the owls hooting and the crows clacking and growling, and catch a glimpse of the shy fox.  Other that the deer ticks, I am completely at home.

                During hunting season the woods are full of assholes - some of them dangerous.  I wonder if I will be shot walking the road.  After hunting season, I see the trash they left behind.  

                "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:49:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hey, I'm with you. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DaveinBremerton, fcvaguy

                  We have lots of deer that visit our yard including moms who have their babies and stash them with us while they go out to eat.    I personally would turn into a vegetarian before I would shoot and butcher an animal for food.  

                  Hunting is a part of us from the days we lived in caves.  It has a proper role and a proper place even today, but it isn't something that I want to do.   Hell, I can even feel sorry for my old cars when I sell/trade them in.    

                  I have three straight, white, male grandchildren; and I don't care if you think they're politically incorrect,

                  by dkmich on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:03:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I asked. (6+ / 0-)

              Proprietor disagreed while looking quizzical.

              Then he flat-out stated that the question was 'stupid'.

              "The fool doth think he is wise..."
              Yeah. I've noticed.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:47:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Ever heard of football season? n/t (5+ / 0-)

              "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

              by DaveinBremerton on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:18:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Hugh - Ah, yes, the orange vests and camo. (0+ / 0-)

          Which is it? Do they want to be seen or not?

        •  Let's stay with facts and experience (12+ / 0-)

          What is the basis on which this claim is based?  Are you saying that in your vast experience as a hunter, you have found that those accompanying you are routinely under the influence of alcohol?  If not that, then what?  

          I have dealt with the public in a host of venues, and somewhere between 1% and 5% will be jerks, criminals, etc.  There will be another small fraction who will go along.  But the vast majority will be ethical, non-criminal, etc.  

          So too with hunters.  I know no one who drinks while hunting, although I am aware of a persistent stereotype to the contrary offered in attempts at humor or by those with an axe to grind. Perhaps the best measure of this would be the testimony and arrest records of game wardens, who after all are routinely in contact with hunters in the field.  They are looking for those your comment suggests are common as dirt because hunting under the influence is illegal in every state.  Game wardens I know tell me that particular crime is unusual, although it was far more common a generation ago.  I did a google search for such arrests and found one for all of last year's season, in Kentucky.  I am sure there were others that could be found if I changed the way I phrased the question, but the point is there is hardly an epidemic.  The rule is, the guns can only be out when the alcohol is put away, and once the reverse is true, the guns stay in their cases until the following morning.  It is followed far more carefully than laws against drinking and driving, for example.  I really do have vast experience on which to make that claim.

          •  My experience vs. your experience (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jqb, historys mysteries

            You belittle my experience, and then proceed to tell me of your own.

            If your experience is valid, then so to is mine.

            I have been in contact with hunters in the field and I can tell you they are pigs.  They have zero respect for nature or for any humans - including any rules you have about drinking and guns.  

            I can confirm for you that the game wardens are making no arrests in my neighborhood.  I would be happy to relate my complaints to game wardens (and point out where the beer-equiped hunters have parked their vehicles and left their animal carcasses) if one was ever to visit the area I live in.   Of course, in order to see a crime, you have to be in the location where the crime is occurring.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:05:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  This is true and most of the hunters commenting (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jqb, poco, fcvaguy

          here know it. I'm the opposite of the Park Slope woman - I grew up a hunter and moved on since sitting in the woods on a cold wet day was less entertaining than pretty much everything. I know all the hunting BS and I do agree with Hugh that a lot of hunters out there tend to be assholes when it comes to someone else's property. We have 400 acres that back up to a national forrest and we get a lot of hunters in the forrest and our property that do not belong there. Usually a few shots in the air get them moving along.

    •  Got any more stereotypes to heap into this? (7+ / 0-)

      Let's see, we have trespassing, trash-spewing, drunk, road-hunting, trigger happy, law breaking slobs.  None of it verifiable unless you were out there with a breathalyzer.

      "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

      by DaveinBremerton on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:48:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Funny, we get the exact same crowd here in CT (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jqb, poco

        and since I know some of them and clean up the trash they leave, I don't need to speculate about their alcohol consumption.
        And the land they are fouling is Nature Preserve land where no hunting, no motor vehicles are allowed. If these bas+ards took any kind of hunting safety classes, they forgot everything they were taught and then some.

        If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

        by CwV on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:57:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Guess we have better people in Oregon (7+ / 0-)

          People hunt all around me, I live in a forest. As long as they don't come on my property (10 acres) or shoot my way, I'm OK with that. Once  a while ago, someone was hunting too close so I went out and fired a few warning shots into the ground and they went away. Yes that was better than chasing them through the woods to chew them out.
          I pick up after them but they don't leave much. I don't see beer cans laying around, don't see much of anything. People who come up non season leave more.
          What is somewhat irritating is that, early in the morning, they crap right in the middle of my (mile long) driveway and leave their TP there. I let the rain take care of that.
          I personally don't hunt myself but I do practice moving silently through the forest. I don't like to kill things either if I don't have to.

          Happy just to be alive

          by exlrrp on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:28:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Where I am in CT, it kinda looks rural (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dkmich, poco, Kimbeaux

            but there are very few pieces of land bigger than a couple hundred acres. Most of those are in Nature Conservancy and almost all of it is privately owned. The hunters here don't give a flying fu(k about the laws or about the house right over the hill.
            I, too, walk quietly in these woods in order to see what lives here and have more than once had shotgun pellets rip through the trees and bounce around the rocks where I'm walking.
            ON MY OWN LAND.
            And the cops are useless as several of the more notorious poachers here are buddies of theirs. They say, "You catch 'em, we'll bust 'em". Yeah right.

            If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

            by CwV on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:36:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sounds like they need to take their hunting (3+ / 0-)

              trips up or out of state.   We have woods in a subdivision full of deer.   Not safe to hunt these woods because they are too small for the distance the bullets travel.  Based on population density, there are rules in MI on whether or not one can hunt an area and whether or not the hunter must use a shotgun or a rifle.  Of course, some people think they are just like bankers and don't have to obey the law.  Unlike bankers, hunters do get fined, equipment and car confiscated, and even jail time for breaking the law.

              I have three straight, white, male grandchildren; and I don't care if you think they're politically incorrect,

              by dkmich on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:55:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  So they leave trash and crap right in your drive? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jqb, poco

            So let me see if I understand this correctly: the better hunters in Oregon trespass on your land, leave their trash, and crap right on your drive-way?

            And you're OK with that?

            And wait - according to the RKBA crowd around here, warning shots are a misuse of a gun and likely illegal (Marissa Alexander got 20 years for assault with a deadly weapon after firing a "warning shot" at her violently abusive husband).  According to the RBKA crowd, you ONLY shoot your gun to kill.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:47:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  add people who drive to the list (10+ / 0-)

              i frequently ride my bicycle past  rest area on the interstate. never fails...the area around it is always full of trucker bombs (bottles of piss) and diapers full of shit.

              so using your logic, anyone who drives vehicles, stops at rest areas or produces children are exactly like this.

              it must be nice to live in a world that simple.

              good thing us libruls aren't into stereotypes, eh?

              Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery. Today is a gift and that's why it's called "The Present".

              by elkhunter on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:21:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  very little trash and the rain takes away the TP (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DaveinBremerton

              The truth is, I only own half of it all the way tot the county road. I don't know if its the left side or the right side, but thts what the deed said. Cascade Timber owns the other half but theyre supposed to keep it  up. They own most of the land around here and I'm talking about 80 square miles or so and they allow hunting on it so I don't have much to say about it---just not on my property.
              With all the animals camping in my driveway---especially coyotes---I don't see why I should make a big fuss, especially since they make such a fetish of doing it in the rain. (Something I learned in Vietnam: come in out of the rain whenever you can)

              I guess i'm still in the RKBA crowd and I know for sure there are such things as warning shots and signal shots.  What other pe0ple think doesn't bother me
              Marisse alexander was dumb she should have said he was cleaning the gun and she'd be a free woman today, just like Aaron Alexis was when he did the same.

              Happy just to be alive

              by exlrrp on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 02:36:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Huh. Unverifyable character assassination of (4+ / 0-)

          unknown people doing an activity you disagree with.

          Your unverifiable claims are as shocking as they are credible.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:54:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I have been to CT and there is trash (5+ / 0-)

          all over in any area where ever there might be public access.  I don't think it's due to hunters.
          Rhode Island is even worse.  Public places are trashed by the general population.
          So, the general population of CT and RI are pigs?

          The sun's not yellow, it's chicken. B. Dylan

          by bgblcklab1 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 05:26:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  He was just reporting an observation (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dkmich, DaveinBremerton

        I personally don't know any hunters (I live on the east coast) so I have no clue.  It's interesting to read the different perspectives here.

        •  My old man used to blame hippies for dumping (10+ / 0-)

          He owns about 60 acres, and illegal trash dumping is always a problem.  If he saw someone looking vaguely hippie-like, he'd blame them for everything from trash to cut fences.  I doubt he ever actually saw a hippie in the act of cutting a fence, but back then Dad wasn't one for factual analysis.

          I once packed about 20 pounds of trash out of a national park backcountry area.  Not a hunter in the area; nothing but hordes of wholesome, nature-loving wilderness travelers.  Somehow, in the total absence of hunters or hippies, that campsite got trashed.  I think assholes did it, and I'm probably correct.

          "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

          by DaveinBremerton on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:17:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  There is a reason that stereotypes become (0+ / 0-)

        stereotypes.

      •  You forgot (4+ / 0-)

        small dicks and compensation there of. Or of a female- the wanting of a dick or bigger tits? Did we ever figure that out for the ladys?

    •  Hugh - I'm with you. Hunters around here take the (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jqb, CwV, poco, Pale Jenova

      position that the land owner owns the land, not the game. So they tear down fences and trespass. Years ago, one of these trespassers shot my dogs on their own territory.
         Numerous times I've had to "stand my ground" with a shotgun to force these people off my land. By and large, these people aren't rural people hunting for meat. They're suburban dickheads who go out to the country to run their ATVs on the roads and on other people's property, or to test out their new guns or bows by maiming animals.
         As for safety - Until the area became more inhabited, I would often hear bullets whizzing past. I have a bullet hole in the side of my house.

      •  Gun owners are a law unto themselves (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jqb, CwV, TheFern, poco

        One of my philosophical difficulties with gun owners is this idea that if you carry a gun, you make your own laws, and have no need to follow the laws of the society.

        Trespass, littering, shooting pets, threatening passer-byers and land owners, illegally discharging guns near residences, using guns when drunk, etc.  

        There really is no common sense behavior or laws these cretins won't violate.

        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:18:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's amazing. You are against hunting and guns.... (8+ / 0-)

          and you have stories about how bad people that hunt or use guns are.

          In other news.........
          Racists are against blacks and have stories about how bad black people are.

          Anti-immigration people are against immigrants and have stories about how bad immigrants are.

          Die-hard Chevy fans are against Fords and have stories about how bad Fords are.

          Weird.
          Really fucking mind-boggling how that happens, amirite?

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:45:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This is nothing but an outright falsehood... (11+ / 0-)

          ...which would seem to be based on bigotry:

          ... this idea that if you carry a gun, you make your own laws, and have no need to follow the laws of the society.
          I have never seen anyone take any such stance.

          It is nothing more than a blatant lie, attempting to paint those who disagree with this particular user as something they are not.

          It is simply dishonest and in no way a part of any mature, meaningful discussion. Sadly, it is a common tactic with this user.

          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

          by theatre goon on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 10:28:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are all your guns registered? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jqb, poco

            Tell us honestly: are ALL your guns registered?

            What about all the gun owners who participate in this thread: are ALL their guns registered?

            Saying that ALL gun owners follow ALL the laws regarding guns, is like saying ALL car drivers adhere to ALL speed limits: neither is true.

            If you were truly interested in a mature, meaningful discussion of hunting, you would have to acknowledge the truth of what I say about hunters and trash and drinking.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 10:59:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Why should they be? (10+ / 0-)

              There is no law requiring my firearms to be registered.

              That being the case, you are either have no clue what you are talking about (ignorance) or are intentionally trying to hide behind a false idea (dishonesty).

              Further, you are now attributing to me a stance I have not taken:

              Saying that ALL gun owners follow ALL the laws regarding guns, is like saying ALL car drivers adhere to ALL speed limits: neither is true.
              I never said any such thing, therefore, this is simply another outright falsehood on your part -- proving my claim that you regularly engage in such to be true.

              Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

              by theatre goon on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 11:10:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are the one telling lies n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jqb

                "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 11:18:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Now that's just funny. (7+ / 0-)

                  Really, you made me literally "LOL," so, kudos for that, I guess.

                  But, it does show that you have no defense for the multiple outright falsehoods you have contributed to this discussion.

                  In all seriousness, if you have to so often resort to dishonesty to support your stance, perhaps it is time to reconsider that stance.

                  You have a lovely day.

                  Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                  by theatre goon on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 11:22:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yet more lies n/t (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jqb

                    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 11:36:24 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  hugh as you drift over to the right margin perhaps (11+ / 0-)

                      you should consider that you aren't adding much here, just creating bad vibes and conflict. I get it that you don't like guns or hunting. I can relate as there are some activities I too find unappealing, shopping and ballroom dancing for instance. What I do is stay away from people when they are discussing those activities.

                      Unless you really like pissing people off and getting angry yourself maybe you could consider not joining in on hunting discussions. Free world and all that but you're just not doing much good.

                      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                      by ban nock on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 12:05:23 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Perhaps change the title of your diary? (5+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        jqb, poco, Eyesbright, WakeUpNeo, fcvaguy

                        As the phrase "gun-hater" never shows up in the article linked.  That was your concoction.  I can't help but think that perhaps you trying to illicit certain emotions from people.  Perhaps HJB shouldn't have taken the bait, but you are the one started inflaming emotions, no?

                        "Goodnight, thank you, and may your God go with you"

                        by TheFern on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 12:15:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Read the article (5+ / 0-)

                          The woman wouldn't let her kids use water pistols unless they were shaped as porpoises. She came from a strictly "no guns" at all for any reason they are all bad, background.

                          I think many are still in the Park Slope mindset.

                          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                          by ban nock on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 12:19:33 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Maybe link to where she says (5+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jqb, poco, Eyesbright, WakeUpNeo, fcvaguy

                            "I hate guns".  Or "guns are bad".  All I can find is:

                            When Booker was a toddler and preschooler in Brooklyn, one of the few things we mamas agreed on was this: no gun play. Water guns in Park Slope came in the shape of dolphins. There were no cap guns or BB guns or pistol-and-holster sets anywhere north of 15th Street or west of Prospect Park, at least when we were there.
                            Do you recommend gun play for preschoolers and toddlers?

                            This woman is buying her 14 year old a rifle for christmas and you label her a "gun hater"?  Who's being dishonest?

                            "Goodnight, thank you, and may your God go with you"

                            by TheFern on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 12:30:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I never said she said , "I hate guns" (6+ / 0-)

                            go bother someone else. You're just doing your best to be a dick, and you're pretty much succeeding.

                            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                            by ban nock on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 12:59:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're way out of line (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheFern

                            TheFern challenged your assertions and the diary very respectfully, without insult. And, rather than debate the points made, you choose to accuse TheFern of being a dick. I'm not HR'ing, but you owe TheFern an apology. There's no need to get nasty or to invoke DBAD when a debate is going your way.

                      •  I belive the rightward drift... (5+ / 0-)

                        ...is intentional.

                        It's just an attempt to divert a discussion that a particular user would prefer not to be had at all.

                        It works sometimes, toss nonsensical personal attacks and blatant falsehoods, toss even more when those are pointed out for what they are, lather, rinse and repeat.

                        The tactic is pretty transparent -- I'm only surprised that they think they're still fooling anyone with it.

                        Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                        by theatre goon on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 02:05:45 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  What are you - T Goon's lawyer? (0+ / 0-)

                        So are you now T Goon's lawyer?  You speak for him?

                        1) You have related your experience of hunting as something fun and wonderful.  I have related my experience of hunting as something trashy and drunk.  My experience of this is every bit as valid as your own.

                        2) Speaking of not adding much here, T Goon comes along and starts calling me a bigot and mischaracterizing my comments .  You of course respond by singling out me for criticism - where is your comment telling T Goon that HE is not adding anything of worth and HE should avoid creating conflict?  Everyone knows lawyers are biased in favor of their clients: you cannot pretend to be a spokesperson for politeness and fairness WHILE functioning as T Goon's lawyer.  Feel free to post a similar criticism of T Goon's comments to prove I am wrong about this.

                        3) While you may not like my experience with hunters and hunting, numerous others from all over the country have complained about the same obnoxious behaviors as I have observed (really? crapping on the driveway?).  All of those comments have added substantially to the lively discussion here.

                        4) And speaking of pissing people off, most people here at dkos do not like guns.  Yet for some reason, you want to post your pro-gun piece here where you know it will be greeting with plenty of criticism.  Why do you do that if not to piss people off - and then you want to complain that others are pissing people off?  You always have the option of publishing your pro-gun stuff at a gun industry related web-site where it will be greeted with unqualified enthusiasm.  

                        5) It takes two people to push a thread to the right margin.  Your contribution is noted.

                        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 02:56:57 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh, look. (5+ / 0-)

                          You toss out more outright falsehoods:

                          --You claim that I called you a bigot -- no, in fact, I referred to your statements which are apparently based on bigotry.  Therefore, this is a lie.

                          --No one is claiming to be anyone's lawyer, or are they claiming to be the spokesperson for politeness and fairness.  Therefore, your claims otherwise are lies.

                          --"...most people here at dkos do not like guns."  This is nothing more than an unsupported assertion, based on nothing but yet more bigotry.  Therefore, this is simply a lie.

                          That's three lies out of one comment from nothing more than a cursory glance.  Apparently all you have to support your stance here is an ever-lengthening list of falsehoods.

                          You really aren't nearly as good at this little game of yours as you think you are...

                          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                          by theatre goon on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:29:48 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

        •  Must be a rare occurrence (4+ / 0-)

          Because a LOT of gun owners live around me and I've rarely seen this behavior--save back when I was in high school and the neighbor kids would go out shooting in the fog--but then that is clearly a potential GunFail moment.

          And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

          by Pale Jenova on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:05:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So you DO know a gun-owning idiot (0+ / 0-)

            So, in fact you do know a gun-owning idiot doing something dangerous.

            Which is exactly my point.  EVERYONE knows some one with a gun who acts like a thoughtless fool, perfectly willing to do anything they want, regardless of the laws.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 06:52:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I do know an idiot--who happens to own a gun (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kasoru

              Actually, they may have grown out of idiocy by now. I also know car owners who are idiots too, and I encounter a lot more idiots on the road than idiots firing guns. But a quick read of any GunFail diary will expose plenty of idiots, if you want to find them.

              And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

              by Pale Jenova on Mon Oct 07, 2013 at 05:42:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  A duck blind is a very social place (10+ / 0-)

    For years several hunting buddies and I shared a duck blind in a coastal marsh.  It was a 12x8 structure, with an open area in front in which we could stand and shoot, and a covered back 6' with a bench and stove.  We would gather before dawn to set out the decoys, start the fire in the stove, brew coffee, and cook up some sausages, eggs, and rolls.  Then everyone would sit awaiting that magic moment 1/2 hour before dawn when we would have shooting light.  And, as you might imagine, the conversation started.  We covered almost everything.  We talked about divorce and other personal matters, politics, economics, local gossip, and the shape of clouds.  Usually around 8 or 8:30, we would pick up the decoys, pack up the ducks we shot, and go to work.  These were not superficial moments.  We shot ducks too, a lot of ducks.  I moved away, and I miss the therapy almost as much as I miss the hunting.

    Hunting upland game birds is a bit less social.  We follow the dogs, and maybe converse a bit about which covers to explore and the apple crop in a long abandoned orchard.  Conversation may drift more widely in the truck to and from the hunt, but it's not a venue well suited to that purpose.

    Hunting deer is very different.  There ban nock's comment, "Chances are pretty good they won't discuss politics much, or religion, or sexual preference or any one of  many touchy subjects. Probably a good idea all around." is right.  A deer stand is generally a solitary place, and always a silent place.  Deer camp, however, is legendary.

  •  You forgot one very important thing... (19+ / 0-)

    Respect for the animals you hunt.  You don't shoot unless it is a clear shot capable of bringing the animal down and not just wounding it.   If you wound it, you track it until you find it.   You don't leave it to bleed to death and rot somewhere in the woods.   If you are not going to turn it into food, don't go hunting.   Even if you don't want it, it can be butchered and donated to a food agency that helps the poor.  

    Hunting is not about killing unless you're nuts.  It is about skills, food, and respecting the food mother earth provides.   Would I rather people grew corn?  Yes, but I do understand hunters; and I don't have a problem with responsible hunters.

    I have three straight, white, male grandchildren; and I don't care if you think they're politically incorrect,

    by dkmich on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:54:43 AM PDT

  •  I remember a particularly difficult pack-out (14+ / 0-)

    I dropped this very large (320 lb.+) mule deer in the middle of a freshly felled clear-cut in the mountains of northeast Washington.  There was shin-deep snow over everything.  I'd just come down from hunting this old glacial basin and spotted several deer about a quarter mile away in the logging job that bordered the basin.  It took an hour to close in for a 90-yard shot.  That done, I spent the next 3 hours moving the field-dressed deer over jack-straw piles of logged trees while trying to keep my footing in the snow.

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by DaveinBremerton on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:00:46 AM PDT

  •  I grew up in just about the most (19+ / 0-)

    non-hunting, non-gun owning surroundings imaginable.
    So Cal surfer girl turned super involved mommy turned empty nest divorced turned remarried/reinvented.
    My soul mate, on the other hand, grew up in the North East, went fishing, sailing, and hunting from about 3rd grade on.

    I had never even seen or held a 'real gun' before I met him, just pop guns and water pistols.

    My interest piqued when we visited our friend's farm, where hunting is a 'putting food on the table and in the freezer' affair. If not for hunting, deer would over-run the township (and some years they HAVE, and the township has had to hire outside hunters to harvest them - one year, driving around in just a 5 day period I saw 53 dead deer by the side of the road, struck by cars or trucks). Offered the chance, I learned to target shoot and clay pigeon shoot and found that I was good at it.... actually was damn good at it. And I liked it. Hunters education class gave me the right to hunt and the knowledge to do it safely.

    Anyways, this hunting and animal rights/conservation group(s) member absolutely believes that there is a great deal more morality in eating animal protein that I have hunted and butchered and frozen myself (with my husband, couldn't possibly do the butchering  by myself... I only help with that part) than in opening a plastic package of artificially red cow muscle. I know that the deer has lived free, has borne or bred offspring, eaten in beautiful meadows and bedded down in grass beneath the trees. It never stood in a herd of hundreds atop a mound of it's own waste packed together in feed lots so tightly it can barely move, like most of the beef most Americans eat. It's never been cattle-prodded, force fed antibiotic laden feed pellets and treated cruelly by giant cattle processing companies. Most of the other hunters I know feel similarly.

    I also enjoy the time I spend alone with my thoughts, in my stand watching bluebirds swoop, and squirrels gathering nuts and chasing one another, and foxes creeping and pouncing cat-like after mice and voles under the newly fallen snow crust. Then, there's that heart pounding few minutes when a big deer comes into my field and I have to decide whether to take it's life so that I and my family have meat for the year - it is a time of both prehistoric adrenaline rush and reflection and reverence for the animal and it's sacrifice all rolled into one and over in a flash. There's no cheering or high fiving or celebration other than a simple quiet 'thank you' for the deer who will provides sustenance for my family. No trophy hunting for me, I will not shoot anything that I don't intend to eat. Period.

    Long winded, but I don't often have much opportunity to convey what hunting is and what it means to me, so thanks for the diary ban nock, and good hunting to you this Fall/Winter season.


    Information is power. But, like all power, there are those who want to keep it for themselves. Aaron Swartz

    by Lisa Lockwood on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:06:16 AM PDT

    •  You hit on the spirit of it (13+ / 0-)

      A couple weeks ago I was hip-deep in the Puyallup River, casting for salmon.  The pinks are in this year and the river was chock full of them.  Fish were continually bumping into my legs, or they would drift down with the current, pile up on the upstream side of my legs, and hang out there until I shooed them off.

      This section of river is in downtown Puyallup.  I-5 is a few minutes away and a housing development borders the river.  On the river the brush screens out civilization and it's just anglers and fish.  I stand leaning into the current, performing the mantra of cast-drift-retrieve while submitting to the inevitability of the rain that is falling.  It's a good time for sorting through the mental laundry.

      "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

      by DaveinBremerton on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:26:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lucky you! Haven't had a chance to (4+ / 0-)

        throw a fly since July ;-(
        We fly fish the Madison and Firehole inside Yellowstone Park, usually around the 2nd or 3rd week of October, but this year our friend is using the time share we split for the Autumn.
        It's about the rhythm, the tug, the flash of tail and then suddenly you're watching with jaw dropped as the Osprey swoops to steal that fat brown trout you were casting to and flies up to her nestlings ..... and loving every darned minute of losing that fish.

        We are so damn lucky.


        Information is power. But, like all power, there are those who want to keep it for themselves. Aaron Swartz

        by Lisa Lockwood on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 01:07:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  There's nothing (17+ / 0-)

    quite like walking into the woods before dawn, and sitting quietly while everything wakes up. There's a lot more going on out there than one might think.

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:36:45 AM PDT

    •  no kidding (11+ / 0-)

      i live right across the street from a piece of national forest. people who walk their dogs or do short hikes in the area always say "there's no animals out there."

       i laugh as in the pre-dawn hours i've seen herds of 50 elk, not to mention the deer lying in the willows all day as they hide from loose running dogs, bear which are constantly passing through, moose, mountain lions whose tracks i've seen many times.

      for me, just watching the animals is a big part of hunting. a couple weeks ago i hung out under a tree with a pine marten during a downpour. most people aren't even aware that such an animal exists.

      Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery. Today is a gift and that's why it's called "The Present".

      by elkhunter on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:41:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why I spend less and less time at dailykos. (6+ / 0-)

    Place babbles on about community and then is belligerent with everyone in the community they disagree with.   Old people fling poop.

    I have three straight, white, male grandchildren; and I don't care if you think they're politically incorrect,

    by dkmich on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 08:40:21 AM PDT

  •  I just can't agree with this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lost and Found, poco
    Hunting and cutting up critters are very normal to young kids.
    with all due respect.
  •  I spent my last two years of high school... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jqb, poco

    ...in a rural part of New York state. We acquired some wooded acreage and an older farm house amidst mostly overgrown farmland and summer camps for kids from New York City.

    Our land was posted "No Hunting," but that didn't stop hunters from coming on our land to shoot whatever they felt like shooting at.  Hunting season was like a war zone; shots being fired within earshot almost continuously from dawn to dusk.  

    Each hunting season farmers would lose cows to stray bullets. We lost several cats and a dog, presumably to hunters who couldn't tell the difference between a 20 pound tabby and a deer. House in our area that were close to the woodlines were  sometimes hit by bullets.

    I know there are responsible hunters out there, who respect property rights, only shoot when they've positively identified their target and can get a clean "kill" shot. I was taught to use large caliber rifles by those people.  However, there are far more wack jobs then there are responsible hunters.

    So no, I'm not buying the "Hunter safety which all hunters have to take instills a culture of safety which sticks with most people forever." theme of this diarist. Some people learn to hunt (and generally use firearms) safely. Far more people treat hunting as an excuse for being drunk in the great outdoors and pretending to be a "Great White Hunter," same way far more people treat guns as fashion toys than treat guns as deadly weapons.

  •  My Cousin (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheFern, poco

    I have a cousin and she is probably everything you say a good hunter should be. She is not a drinker or a rabble rouser, not wild and crazy. Taking pleasure in killing something is not my cup of tea. I think it's weird and we would never have been best buddies, but, I'm not a vegetarian and I understand the need for control of certain animal populations. So, I tolerated her Facebook posts with pictures of dead animals and her I love Jesus and all my family posts, followed by her I hate immigrants or Obama, or somebody though occasionally I might comment on her political posts if I felt up to or had time for a conversation with her right wing friends. She's my cousin, we played together at my Granny's house when we were young. She is nice to our gay cousin. (Not everyone in the family is.) More and more, we see  each other at funerals.

    But, I took her off my newsfeed after the killing at Sandy Hook because I was repelled by her attitude. Her desire to have unfettered access to any gun she wanted in pursuit of her hobby trumped dead children. That was her focus.

    People fascinated by guns say all the problems are caused by the bad gun owners. But, all those bad gun owners have guns because it is real easy to get one and good gun owners don't support strict regulation. And, I think good gun owners overestimate their own infallibility and underestimate how many bad gun owners there are.

     

    •  Sandy Hook has been eye-opening. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tommye, poco, Oh Mary Oh

      I never paid much attention to the gun issue previously.  Even as there were occasional gang shootouts in the alley behind my apartment,  I would just roll with it.  I sort of (selfishly) considered myself something of a badass for living in such a place (kept the hipsters and yuppies away).  Most of my uncles are hunters, and this is probably the most important activity for them.  For me, hunting has nothing to do with guns.  If every firearm disappeared today, hungry people would still hunt.  For the shooter, guns are everything.  After the mass shootings of 2012 I was appalled at the lack of (concern? empathy?) sense that came from these people I used to hold in high regard.  I awoke to the fact that if I wanted my children to grow up in a country that wasn't awash with loose guns wielded by people who really didn't give a rat's ass where the bullets went, it was time to get involved.  Hunting is one thing,  our guns-on-demand culture is a different thing altogether.

      "Goodnight, thank you, and may your God go with you"

      by TheFern on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 11:53:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  After 911 did you support warrantless wiretaps or (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DavidMS, Robobagpiper

      did your phone calls to grandma trump dead children?

      ........or is it only acceptable to target innocent people for the crimes of murderers, when it is something that doesn't infringe upon something you use?

      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

      by FrankRose on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 11:58:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I do not support warrantless wiretapping. (4+ / 0-)

        I can see both the efficacy of collecting information, but also  the very real danger to democracy of not guarding the right to privacy. As there are democracies that regulate gun ownership, I do not see that as a danger to democracy,  but I do see the benefits of making sure guns are only in the hands of competent people.

        That being said, I recognize that since they are both protected in some form or fashion in the Bill of Rights, that we are bound by a legal process of accepting the current interpretation of both. But, interpretations change and can be tested.  

        My preference would be to repeal the second amendment, and  for gun ownership to be considered a privilege and not a right at all, but I am not delusional. I don't think that will happen in my lifetime. But, I will support any effort to reduce the number of guns in circulation, to regulate them and to regulate the marketing of them as we do cigarettes. It is a health and safety issue and overall they are more of a cost to society than a benefit.  

    •  a closed mind won't do you much good (5+ / 0-)

      maybe your cousin has as much to do with Sandy Hook as you do to 9/11, after all you still ride in airplanes.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 12:22:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You and my cousin (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco

        and any person who support unfettered access to guns and anyone who promotes mass ownership of guns do bear some responsibility for gun deaths. I do not advocate for the unfettered access to the flying of planes. I certainly support regulation of them and want my government to make sure they are as safe as possible. To make a gun safe is to render it useless. It is by its very nature, unsafe. The only way to reduce gun deaths is by regulating who has them.  

  •  Just returned from hunting when I logged on (9+ / 0-)

    to find this diary and the ensuing pie fight-like activity.  

    I was out grousing this morning and early afternoon.  Two birds in the vest, quickly dispatched--they were completely still before I could even get to them from the trail.  That's a lot quicker than they would have stopped breathing under the talons of a goshawk and a lot easier than your average factory farm chicken has it.  Both birds had birch catkins, mountain ash berries, and clover in the crop...much better than GMO corn or whatever it is they feed caged chickens and much healthier for my end of the food chain.  They are in the fridge now, to be frozen and become my contribution to Thanksgiving dinner this year.

    As far as hunters go, here in Minnesota I've encountered the entire gamut--from gun nut hick slobs who are in it for the killing, bragging, and tough-guy act to true gentlemen and -women who respect the game they are hunting and deeply care about the environment.  I've known right-wing numbskulls who kill animals and conservationist hunters to the left of me who have a deep appreciation of nature.  Several of them work in forestry or biology.  Putting hunters in a box just doesn't work.  The "grown up" hunters I know are pretty disdainful of the immature slobs out there.    

    Ban nock, I have a link to the hunting injury stats for Minnesota.  I link 2010 because that is the last year they show both fatal and non-fatal injuries.  For some reason, they quit releasing non-fatal hunting injuries after 2010...I hope it wasn't an underhanded anti-gun-reg move due to the GOP taking the state legislature in 2010, but I'm not sure.

    http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/...

    I read these stats every year.  It seems in most cases, hunting firearm injuries tend to be either self-inflicted or hunters shooting other members of their own party during deer drives, etc.  However, part of that may be because non-hunters tend to stay out of the woods during our firearms deer season.  I know I personally won't be caught just hiking on public land in mid-November around here.  

    I remember my track into hunting:  I was actually tagging along on a trapline with my dad by the time I was 7, even though I was more of a fishing kid.  He gave me a pellet gun when I was young and told me to only shoot cans, targets, or House Sparrows (non-native birds that destroy bluebird nests).  I was given some safety instructions, but not necessarily closely supervised.  I followed the rules because I didn't want to lose the gun.  By probably 10 or 11, I took my first duck with him and was allowed to take the .22 or the 20 gauge to the river bottom and hunt squirrels by myself and sometimes went squirrel hunting with a friend.  By the time I reached high school, I was allowed to put on waders and walk the nearby creek to jump shoot woodies...even though I always failed.  I was also running an after-school trapline at that time.  (I'll admit that my views on the ethics of trapping have changed quite a bit since then, but at the time it was a way to both be outdoors and earn a paycheck.)  To this day, I have taken a lot of small game though I've never hunted anything larger than a goose, but I may give deer a try this fall.  I'll be honest, I don't have a great desire to down a deer, but I do like venison.  

    I firmly believe there is nothing wrong with hunting per se.  I completely respect vegetarians and understand their objections, but if you are a meat-eater AND object to hunting, you need to examine your own contradictions.  Like with many other vocations, there are extremely ethical hunters out there worthy of respect and there are terrible hunters out there who deserve only contempt.

    Enjoyed the diary.  Thanks.

    Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

    by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 03:04:38 PM PDT

    •  Thanks for This (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mark Mywurtz

      My friends run the gamut from Buddhist vegans to professional hunters, so the aforementioned pie fight had me rolling my eyes and thinking "what a bunch of lunatics" about both sides.

      But here at the bitter end I get my reward, a bit of sensible commentary.

      Good hunting, friend.

      Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies have nothing to lose but their chains -Marx (-8.75,-8.36)

      by alain2112 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:38:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks, I missed your comment, maybe I was out (0+ / 0-)

      working Sunday afternoon, or maybe it was the pie fights. Shouldn't have put the gun in the title maybe. Wish I could hunt birds.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 02:02:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Of course my comment was HRed, but it's true. (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:
    DaveinBremerton

    I showed this page to several friends and they all agreed about my assessment.

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