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Sen. Ted Cruz and House Speaker John Boehner

Earlier this week, we saw a pair of post-shutdown polls, each of which showing Americans placed more blame on Republicans than Democrats for the government shutdown, and today we have a third:

The Associated Press-GfK survey, out Wednesday, affirms expectations by many in Washington — Republicans among them — that the GOP may end up taking the biggest hit in public opinion from the fiscal paralysis, just as that party did when much of the government closed 17 years ago. But the situation is fluid nine days into the shutdown and there's plenty of disdain to go around.

Overall, 62 percent mainly blamed Republicans for the shutdown. About half said Obama or the Democrats in Congress bear much responsibility.

63 percent of the public believes Republicans are not doing enough to negotiate compared with 52 percent who believe President Obama isn't doing enough. Sen. Ted Cruz, credited by many as being the driving force behind the GOP's shutdown strategy, is only known by half the public, but among those who do know him, twice as many view him unfavorably as favorably.


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Comment Preferences

  •  Not surprising. GOP is now officially bonkers: (21+ / 0-)

    Submitted for your disapproval:

    Rep. Phil Gingrey (R-GA) told Roll Call that Republicans were "absolutely" prepared to lose the House to extract concessions from President Obama and he said the White House is "missing the determination of the Republican Party."

     Said Gingrey: "I mean, they seem to think that we will miss this opportunity for a 'Braveheart' moment to do the right thing for the American people and that we'll back down for fear of losing the House and not gaining control of the Senate."

  •  same poll shows Obama job approval at 37% (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
  •  Only 62 percent? (8+ / 0-)

    I am surprised the number is that low, but then again the Republicans have a large portion of the country believing their every word.

    29, white male, TX-07 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

    by TDDVandy on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 06:35:52 AM PDT

  •  Colonel Orange Caught red handed (7+ / 0-)

    with the lead pipe in the living room

    I want 1 less Tiny Coffin, Why Don't You? Support The President's Gun Violence Plan.

    by JML9999 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 06:35:52 AM PDT

  •  Well, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    those polls are skewed. They're going with their guts.

    Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by Gentle Giant on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 06:36:21 AM PDT

  •  just read an interesting headline on nbc news (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shoeless, Heart of the Rockies, lina

    whereas it seems Paul Ryan may have offered what is being called an "olive branch" in proposing the government reopens and the debt ceiling raised in the short term and in return there are talks about entitlement and tax code reforms", so guess what that means? Chained cpi will once again be on the table. Lovely.

  •  "Doing enough to negotiate"? (13+ / 0-)

    Why is it framed that way?  Why should the President have to negotiate with people to get them to do their jobs?  GAH!  ARG!

  •  how reliable is this poll? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    i saw where it was online.

    •  First time AP has done internet polling (0+ / 0-)

      but the methodology itself is well proven, internet polls have done well the last few cycles. This particular organization may have some kinks though.

    •  AP-GfK sucks, according to Nate Silver. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jbsoul, Matt Z

      I'm actually surprised Jed posted their findings. In 2008 they were a bit iffy (and that's putting it lightly), and they weren't all that trustworthy in 2012.#

      That being said, Obama has to start using the bully pulpit by addressing the nation. Preferably next tuesday evening. The fact he ignored the villagers at yesterday's presser tells you he knows cable news and the alphabet networks are a huge part of the problem:

      @piersmorgan: If POTUS spent as much time talking to #Boehner as he is right now to the media, shutdown could end today.
      Also, as Obama was leaving the room, one reporter shouted "Do you bear any responsibility for this?"

      Doing local media interviews is a decent start. But sooner or later (hopefully sooner) Obama will have to educate the public.

  •  So basically both sides are being blamed... (6+ / 0-)

    Because the media in this country is so frickin' in the tank for Republicans it's sickening.  

    This new poll will be great news for the Republican shutdown - they'll show that Obama is being blamed more and more and if they just hold out another 10 days by then Obama will be completely to blame in the eyes of ignorant sheep public and he'll have to cave on the debt ceiling in a major way.  

    Glenn Greenwald promotes far-right fringe extremist group The Oath Keepers -

    by Jacoby Jonze on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 06:43:33 AM PDT

    •  The media helps (4+ / 0-)

      them reinforce their echo chamber propaganda but the reality is there are that many millions of idiots who lap it up.

      I have been saying that since the shutdown began and folks here seemed taken aback that I was suggesting that no matter how obvious anything seemed to be to us, WE aren't the target audience.  Their target audience laps up their bullshit stew every day.

  •  Why is it that (4+ / 0-)

    GOPers are trying to spin it multiple ways on the shutdown and debt ceiling issues?

    We had to take a stand on Obamacare and cause the shutdown but we didn't cause the shutdown - the Dems did.

    We better get some concessions from Dems or we won't deal on the debt ceiling, but the debt ceiling isn't a big deal until it happens and is a big deal at which time it will Dems fault.

    Anyone else having trouble figuring out what today's talking points are after they spin the crazywheel of GOP misfortune? I'm having trouble keeping up.

  •  This poll confirms the trend. AP is a quirky poll (6+ / 0-)

    the ABC poll provides better data because it has a before and after and it shows Obama going up while the GOP is going down.

    Global Shakedown - Alternative rock with something to say. Check out their latest release, "A Time to Recognize": Available on iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, Spotify and other major online music sites. Visit

    by khyber900 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 06:44:49 AM PDT

  •  Republicans are WINNING!!! (12+ / 0-)

    This polls matter if we have a shutdown leading into the 2014 election.  In the Republican "bubble" that shocked them when Romney lost in a landslide election, that they lost seat in both chambers of congress.  That was really the american people endorsing the platform?!

    They are winning.  The have never been happier! according to (R) Bachman.

    What a joke!  They will bring the entire country down, if it doesn't look like the one they want to live in.  

    Until the country looks like ALABAMA, we are in for a long ride.

    Where are the LIBERALS?!  Where is the telethon for government workers?  Do we care?

  •  Is the word "blame" explicitly used in the polls? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    because that would pose a conundrum for teabagger types who might give the GOP "credit" for the shutdown but would be reluctant to blame them, since "blame" sounds like a bad thing.

  •  Half blame Obama or Democrat? Is this 2012 when (0+ / 0-)

    many polls were showing the race tight between the President and Romney?

     The Republicans see polls which say the President being blamed by half of the respondents and they think they are "winning". I saw Joe Scarborough gloating at some of these numbers yesterday. Republicans believe they are winning just like they thought Romney was going to be President. This is driving them even further out on the crazy limb.

  •  I posted a diary with a visual that I'd created... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Empower Ink, 88kathy's one that I think succinctly describes the GOP & their extremist Tea Party's approach (and threat) to democracy.

    I've posted the metaphorical image before; now, I think it's worth spreading. It might help with characterizations of the GOP and Tea Party as domestic terrorists, economic extortionists, etc.

    The diary has a mini-rant and this image:

    The willful and malicious nature of the GOP's Tea Party extremism, in palpable form.
  •  Half of America has it's head up its Ass! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk, Slick88, Matt Z

    America's democracy is truly at risk and half of America doesn't even know who Ted Cruz is?!

    A lot of very good people are going to get hurt if we go over the debt ceiling cliff, but a lot of the people in that half of America that has it's head up it's Ass and isn't paying attention is going to get hurt also, and I'm not going to shed a F#$%&*g tear for them.

  •  I'd also point out that bad polls will not by (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluinsc, 88kathy, ricknnc, Matt Z

    themselves force the GOP to change course.  It's really about whether Republican leaders, whom we all know deep down are not tea party true believers based on past voting history, are going to exercise their leadership authority and quell the rebellion from the backbenchers instead of kowtowing to them.

    Boehner could shut them down tomorrow if he wanted.  He isn't doing it because he wants to intimidate Democrats into giving him concessions, and he believes (as the President stated) that Democrats are more humane and responsible and won't allow the American people to get hurt for an extended period of time and will sacrifice their beliefs to protect them.

    Obama has analyzed the issue correctly and was so plain spoken about it in his presser it must've given Boehner the chills.  That's why Boehner, who sounded like he had dry mouth from a lot of drinking, had such an abruptly short 5 minute presser where he ran away from the press and is now using Ryan to float some ideas.  The President looks appropriately concerned, confident, honest and unafraid. Boehner looks like a scared drunk who is surrounded and whose only comforts are a bottle of whiskey and the hostages he still has.

    Global Shakedown - Alternative rock with something to say. Check out their latest release, "A Time to Recognize": Available on iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, Spotify and other major online music sites. Visit

    by khyber900 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 06:58:39 AM PDT

    •  The more I think about it (6+ / 0-)

      the more convinced I am than Obamas big FU to the Television entertainment corps of the so-called press yesterday was more than just a raspberry to those idiots.  It was a statement that this is serious business and he is done playing with and answering to the segment of the population that laps up the false equivalency bullshit that the infotainment industry is serving up.

      The time for leadership is here and he isn't playing to the cameras or governing by polls, he is leading. I, for one support that. I'm guessing that instead he is reaching out to print media and others with real credibility with the business sector because it is really up to them to get the Tea Party animals back in their cages and talk the GOP down from the ledge.

      Personally, I don't give shit about the polls because I live surrounded by the crazies. The last thing I want from the President is see him trying to sway them. They were goners from day 1 and nothing he says or does will change it.  I want him leading the country in spite of the fact that half of them are too stupid to be worth the effort.

  •  Gallup Daily Tracking (5+ / 0-)

    has shown President Obama gain 5 approval points over the last week.

    "Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." - Robert Green Ingersoll

    by homeschoolmama on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:02:58 AM PDT

  •  Something I haven't seen much (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Boehner keeps yelling "Negotiate," but even aside from all of the great reasons to not negotiate, Boehner's track record on delivering deals is pretty poor. Someone should ask him why he expects his members to embrace any deal he offers, considering they almost never have before.

  •  In a way what the GOP is now doing is worse (7+ / 0-)

    than secession, as that was a passive act of aggression against the US, whereas this is an active one. Obviously, the death toll is unlikely to be as high as in the Civil War, but the GOP is actively trying to cause grave harm to the US and its people, and really the world, because it can't have its way.

    Are we doomed to forever be sabotaged and dragged behind by our most reactionary and regressive 30% (many if not most of whom, of course, benefit from the very programs they hate and want to destroy)? Is there no way to decrease their numbers or otherwise move past them?

    A lot, if not most of it, is due to racism, undereducated southern and rural whites who feel besieged by people of color and their white allies and lashing out in imagined self-preservation. That's always been with us and likely always will be. But is there nothing that can be done to diminish it?

    Our economic and other policy wars, while clearly spearheaded by special interests looking to protect and advance their interests, are fueled and made possible by a cultural war between our most regressive and progressive elements, that is itself to a large extent fueled by racism.

    Whether the specific issue is guns, gay marriage, immigration or global warming, the role that racism plays is uncanny and unmistakable. By and large those who are against gun control, gay marriage, immigration reform and acknowledging and doing something about global warming are white conservative racists, and those who are for these things are not.

    If we want to win the war, we have to change the culture. It's as simple as that. There will always be people like the Kochs and Murdoch, looking to manipulate the system for profit and ego, but they can't succeed without large numbers of easily manipulable white conservative racists eager to support them. To end and win these policy wars and defeat these oligarchs, we have to end and win the culture wars. And that means ending racism as a potent force in the US. We can never end it completely, but we can make it impotent.

    Somewhere out in the "heartland" there's some unschooled (but sometimes very schooled) yahoo who has every intention of voting for their tea party GOP rep in 2014, even though they have every intention of taking away their Social Security, Medicare, unemployment, disability, schools, roads and homes, all because said rep is a conservative white guy who believes in "freedom".

    We have to end this craziness. And it is crazy. Literally.

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:13:08 AM PDT

    •  We have to out populate them nt (0+ / 0-)

      nosotros no somos estúpidos

      by a2nite on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:34:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Those on the right in general (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      are inordinately fond of mis-definitions, and the Tee Potty crowd are the worst of the worst. Their concept of things like "freedom", "liberty", etc., are a travesty of objective reality.

      The more people I encounter, the more I appreciate our cats.

      by Old Sailor on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 09:56:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Although we have more immediate issues (0+ / 0-)

        to solve, I'm always looking for broader, deeper and longer-standing themes in all that's going on these days, going back to the founding and really well before it, to the middle ages, feudalism and the beginnings of capitalism and its partial historical dependence on exploitation and manipulation. And, really, if we're to ever truly get past these problems, which never seem to really go away, I think we have to look at it that way. These problems are chronic.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 10:55:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  A kaleidoscope of demands and no intention of (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, Old Sailor

    anything small government. Has anyone told these patriots that a king is the smallest form of government. I think they would be happiest with a king.

    Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

    by 88kathy on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:14:02 AM PDT

  •  Responsible Republicans (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Janet 707

    I am really getting pissed off by the term "Responsible Republicans" being used by all the talking heads (see Chuck Todd) to imply that there are actually Republicans who are interested in the welfare of the people of this nation. What part of this definition of "Responsible" (provided by the Free Dictionary by Farlex) actually applies to the pimps populating the GOP.

    1. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.
    2. Involving personal accountability or ability to act without guidance or superior authority: a responsible position within the firm.
    3. Being a source or cause.
    4. Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior.
    5. Able to be trusted or depended upon; reliable.
    6. Based on or characterized by good judgment or sound thinking: responsible journalism.
    7. Having the means to pay debts or fulfill obligations.
    8. Required to render account; answerable: The cabinet is responsible to the parliament.

    I have pointed out the only definition that applies. Stop giving these Morons any credit for wanting to do anything positive for "We the People"

  •  Don't be smug - GOP is right were it wants to be. (6+ / 0-)

    They are playing the long con here.  They take a tiny short-term hit to their popularity that they do not think will hurt them at all come election time.

    Don't believe me?  They make no secret of their strategy -- the odious empty suit Uncle Newty spelled it all out openly in a recent CNN op-ed.  The decades-long GOP strategy has worked.  The GOP has repeated government shutdowns so long that the public at large perceives them as normal and expects Obama to "negotiate" a solution.

    In the meantime, the GOP will fan the flames of Tea Party madness (defaulting on the debt will force smaller government, end Obamacare and SAVE America!) right up until the eleventh hour.  There is one goal and one goal only.  They want to make Obama own the shutdown/debt default and pave his only escape routes with forced concessions of as many domestic spending cuts and as much gutting of Obamacare as possible.

    They are ruthless.  They do not care what pain they cause.  Their eye is on power only.  They will not hesitate to torch the economy as long as they think they can leverage the situation to extract smaller government and gain long-term political and electoral advantage.  

    I don't see a counter-strategy to any of this from Obama or the Dems.  What now, people?

    •  Small government = a nice tidy little king. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jbsoul, sethtriggs, Old Sailor

      A voting Democracy is just too messy and unreliable. Anybody can vote. The unbearable bigness of Democracy.

      Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

      by 88kathy on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:26:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You mean at the time (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      at the start of the first full fiscal year of Obamas second term - when the government would ordinarily be churning away on exciting new policy implementation and initiatives that will become this Presidents legacy (like climate change and health care)?  Instead we are being held for ransom, locked out of our jobs and watching one faction, of one party, of one house of Congress drive us over the cliff on their crazytrain.

      •  Obama's legacy? Do not listen to neo-cons. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Obama created all his own problems by inserting his administration into the vest pocket of neo-liberal economists from day one.  

        Here's the end result.  A policy (Obamacare) literally created by one generation of neo-cons is declared a socialistic abomination by the next generation of neo-neo-cons.  

        And we're treated to the shabby spectacle of Obama desperately trying to save one modest policy achievement (weak and lame-ass American-Heritage-Foundation-written health care reform law) from Repubs who will happily tear down as much of the government as they can if he will not relent.  

        American politics is pure farce.  Obama will relent in the end, the end outcome will bring a smile to the faces of the 1%, and all sides will declare victory and go back to begging corporate sponsors for money to get re-elected.

  •  Against all enemies foreign and domestic (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor

    The US Constitution is the defining foundational document for our government.  It is the blueprint for what the government is, and how it works.  The US Government is the real-world implementation of the Constitution.

    You cannot shut down the United States Government and uphold the Constitution.  If a foreign power tried to shut down the Government, it would be an Act of War.

    The Tea Party Republicans who campaigned on a promise to shut down the Government have stepped over a line.  They are now enemies of the Constitution.  

    What should you do if you have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution and defend it against all enemies, and then it turns out you're one yourself?

    •  It's true. But it's a hard sell... (0+ / 0-)

      ...because the TeaPuppets believe that they are defending the Constitution - from a government that has "gone too far".

      In their fevered imaginations, the term "enemies: domestic", has come to mean "political enemies", not "enemies of the Constitution".

      This, perhaps, is an idea that can be conveyed to the moderates in the middle.

      “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing
      he was never reasoned into” - Jonathan Swift

      by jjohnjj on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 08:57:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)

        I realized years ago that such people don't give a flying fig about the actual Constitution or what it actually means. They mean to get their way and will not hesitate to crassly distort and misrepresent the Constitution in order to achieve their destructive goals.

        The more people I encounter, the more I appreciate our cats.

        by Old Sailor on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 09:43:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Certainly true of the Koch Bros. Probably true of (0+ / 0-)

          Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, But I was speaking of the idiot "True Believers" recently elected to the House. Michelle Bachman and Steve King appear to be more self-deluded than cynical.

          “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing
          he was never reasoned into” - Jonathan Swift

          by jjohnjj on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 10:40:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, Obama will fix that. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    He's going to negotiate during short-term CR and debt-limit rise, so he can be seen to negotiate when not under threat.

    Then he'll either succeed in getting his Social Security-cutting Grand Bargain or he'll make sure that he and the Democrats share the blame when negotiations fall apart and the government is shut down and/or the U.S. defaults.

    This is a president who saw to it that Republicans paid no price for their obstructionism in 2010.

    •  I know there's no way in hell (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      that anyone could change your fixed narrative that President Obama is the source of any and all of the problems this country faces, but but I have to reply anyway.  This is not the same Obama that we saw in 2010.  He is able to learn from his errors, and has said repeatedly that giving in to the extortion by the GOP would damage the fabric of our democracy.  

      As you were.

      "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

      by SottoVoce on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:54:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obama is Obama. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        He's no different than before.

        He's not the source of all problems; he is, however, the symptom of the main problem -- the take-over of America by corporate financial power.

        Obama has learned nothing.  He will concede again.  He will show a modest amount of backbone doing so in order to extract enough elements of (the already laughably watered down) Obamacare to declare a Pyrrhic victory.

        Who loses?  American working families, as usual.

        Nothing to see here, move along.

        •  He won't be conceding. He is a Blue Dog/DLC... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          ...Third Way Democrat all the way. Appointing Simpson, Bowles and Rivlin to his Catfood Commission, appointing Summers, Geithner and Bernanke—and trying to give Summers the Fed job—showed exactly where he stands.

          Oh, and pushing that secret Pacific "free trade" agreement as well.

          The Repukes will pretend to force him to cut earned benefit programs and Obama will pretend those mean old Repukes made him do it. But Obama has been calling for "entitlement reform," (i.e., cuts in benefits) since before he took office.

      •  I've never blamed Obama for anything he isn't... (0+ / 0-)

        ...responsible for.

        Your implication that I have done otherwise is a lie, plain and simple.

        •  I cannot get out of my head your (0+ / 0-)

          former sig line, calling President Obama a "moral sewer."  While I undoubtedly have missed many of your comments, I personally have never seen you suggest that the Republicans bear any responsibility for any of the country's ills.  

          As to your firm assertion that Obama will cut benefits, I will wait and see.  I don't believe it will happen on his watch, because the other half of the dreaded--admittedly horrific--Grand Bargain calls for concessions that the Republicans will never make.  Cuts will not happen without them.

          Time will tell.

          "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

          by SottoVoce on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 10:37:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Obama gave torturers a pass. (0+ / 0-)

            People who tortured innocent people to death. I guess that's OK with you, but pardon me if I can't get my head around that.

            Obama assassinates people without trial and refuses to release people from Guantanamo who have been cleared. I guess that's OK with you, but pardon me if I can't get my head around that.

            Obama launches double-tap drone strikes. I guess that's OK with you, but pardon me if I can't get my head around that.

            Obama has launched an unprecedented war on whistleblowers—the only person ever imprisoned with regard to torture by the U.S. was the man who exposed it. That's on Obama. I guess that's OK with you, but pardon me if I can't get my head around that one.

            There was nothing wrong with that sig of mine. Nothing. In fact, I might just have to revive it and extend the reference to Obama's amoral supporters.

            •  Perhaps you should, as you suggest, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              revive it, and add all of "Obama's amoral supporters" to your "moral sewer".  It's really more honest of you to accuse thousands of us (who in reality hate some policies while supporting others) of being totally "ok" with torture and drone strikes, than to say

              I know we usually want to see the same things for the country even when we disagree over individual politicians.
              I'd like to believe that most of us kossacks do want the same things for the country.  But you don't really seem to believe it.

              "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

              by SottoVoce on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 01:35:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  All Obama has done is advance the neo-lib agenda. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                He stated that he would do so from day one.  Then he did so.

                Result: 95% of income gains during his administration have gone to the top 1%.  Oops.

                If you support Obama's policies, you're in that moral sewer from the get-go.  It's very simple.

                •  lets see... (0+ / 0-)

                  65,899,660 people.  That's a pretty big sewer, moral or otherwise.  

                  "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

                  by SottoVoce on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 03:10:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And your point is? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Millions of people can be deluded into doing all kinds of demented things.  And often have.  In many countries, in many periods.  And by the way, I voted for Obama twice and worked on his first campaign.  I was, however, bitterly disappointed and angry at his actions.  I do not support his policies.

                    •  my point is that everything is not black and white (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      People can abhor many of the President's policy choices and support others without being relegated by self-appointed arbiters into a "moral sewer".  Right now I think that the Koch Brothers and their ilk around the country, right wing state legislators and governors, the Supreme Court, the Republicans in the House and Senate and in think tanks, and major corporations and their lobbyists are all bigger threats than Barack Obama.  

                      I was part of Occupy, and I agree that we need to push back against the income inequality that plagues our country and other industrialized nations.  But I fail to see, because I'm on the President's side in this hostage crisis, who appointed you the judge of who is or isn't morally bankrupt.

                      "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

                      by SottoVoce on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 03:23:10 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  We are all empowered to judge morality. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        That is the very essence of being human.  You have no right to abridge or deny my moral autonomy.  

                        As you no doubt know (although for some reason you obscure the fact with misleading language), income inequality plagues the USA far more than "other" industrialized nations.  We have the highest income inequality among them.  It isn't close.

                        In his economic policy, and in the resultant economic reality of his administration, Obama is entirely indistinguishable from the
                        pro-1% agenda of Koch and company.  They made out gangbusters under his plans.  He invited their economists to craft his policy from day one (Geithner and Summers on down).

                        What has Obama done to mitigate the threat of the groups you purport to oppose?  Nothing.  He has instead embraced and enacted their economic agenda.  So your acknowledgement of them as threats ought to extend to our current President as well.

                        In the current crisis, as in the rest of life, it is utterly foolish and misguided to insist all we have to do is pick a side.  No.  There is another side not named Boehner or Obama.  There is a side that neither represents and that we ignore at our peril -- the side of bringing actual change (and not just a bogus campaign slogan to abandon the second you grasp power), the side of bringing beauty, truth, and social justice to the world.

                  •  Not all of those 66 million engage in dishonest... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...personal attacks against people who criticize Obama's policies.

                    You do.

                    Not all of those 66 million people defend Obama's indefensible policies by making personal attacks on his critics.

                    You do.

                    And you know what? A president who gives torturers and banksters a pass while engaging in an unprecedented war against whistleblowers, the press, personal privacy, and due process—all while increasing the gap between rich and poor faster than George Bush—IS a moral sewer as is anyone who defends those policies.

                    Your repulsive campaign to attack Obama's critics rather than his polices fills me with contempt. I didn't forget all of my principles the day Obama was inaugurated.

                    You obviously did.

                    Yeah, here's another thing you OBVIOUSLY can't get your head around: What was wrong when George Bush did it is just as wrong when Barack Obama does it.

                    That's called having principles, something you clearly know nothing about.

                    You picked this fight by dredging up a signature that is a year old. Fuck that noise. Save your criticism for outrageous policies, not for people who are outraged by the outrageous.

  •  Toomey --Vulnerable next year? (0+ / 0-)

    Just wondering what the chances of the Dems taking back his seat along with the governors.  Toomey's made some crazy statements about the debt ceiling, wondering how siding with the TP is going to play out in purple PA.

  •  A commenter on Rachel Maddow's blog: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jjohnjj, Old Sailor, Matt Z
    "Neil Roger"--  Republican negotiation 'if you say yes to sex I won't have to rape you.'
     Not my usual kind of post, but sadly, absolutely on the money.

    "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

    by SottoVoce on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:49:40 AM PDT

  •  The Blame Game (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor

    Is it time we questioned the mental fitness of the Republicans?

    With their bold faced blaming, and bad tempered bickering, the inability of members of Congress to collaborate, compromise and get anything done has played havoc with our country. The once hallowed halls of Congress have devolved into the ruckus halls of a Jr. High School.

     Perhaps a refresher course in keeping  mentally fit might benefit both the Republicans and Democrats. Certainly the country would benefit.

    •  I'd say the problem is much more (0+ / 0-)

      a lack of honesty and basic decency than it is a lack of mental fitness, although they do lack mental fitness for some value of "mental fitness".

      The more people I encounter, the more I appreciate our cats.

      by Old Sailor on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 08:30:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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