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Last week, a 13-year-old boy named Andy was walking home carrying a toy rifle. Police seem to have mistaken him for a grown man, called for him to drop the gun. As he turned towards the squad car (I think, based on reports), police fired on him. They hit him with seven bullets, according to initial reports. Then they handcuffed him. Then they started to perform first aid. He died.

I argue that this is a case of the cult of compliance. Here's the link to my original post coining that term, but let me define it here. Can you help me improve it?

The cult of compliance - I argue that compliance has been elevated beyond other American values, such as our Fourth Amendment rights to due process. Authority figures from military leaders to beat cops and security guards, media covering authority figures and state violence, and even wide swathes of the American people believe that violence is the appropriate punishment for non-compliance.

The cult of compliance manifests most commonly in police-civilian interactions, but I argue that it has spread beyond those limited confines, such as in schools, in gender relations, in families, and anywhere else where one person believes they have formal authority over another.

We mostly observe the cult of compliance when something horrific happens, often involving a child or person with disabilities being treated as "non-compliant," and tragedy ensuing. For every one of these cases that attracts media attention, there must be hundreds, perhaps thousands, that no one notices. The cult of compliance has become normal. And that's why I write about it.

Last week's killing is a good example, because it's a little complicated. Click through for media coverage (including FOX blaming the victim, naturally) and further analysis.

EDIT - Thanks for the recs. I'm informed that there's a rally planned. Details here.

Here's Fox News' coverage: "Police investigating the shooting death of a 13-year-old boy carrying a replica assault rifle said the boy was told twice by sheriff's deputies to drop the fake weapon and at one point, turned with the barrel of the gun and pointed it in their direction."

So FOX acknowledges that this was a bad result, but the boy shouldn't have pointed the fake gun at the cops, and the boy should have followed orders. If he had just complied, he'd have lived.

Meanwhile, TIME focuses on the fake gun.

The shooting is the latest in a long line of incidents of police shooting — and sometimes killing — people  whom they have mistakenly thought to be armed with a real firearm. Last year, police fatally shot a Texas eight-grader who was carrying a pellet gun that resembled a black Glock. The year before, Miami police shot and killed a 57-year old man who had a realistic replica gun after getting 911 calls about the ostensible weapon. “This is not the first time,” says Karen Caves, spokeswoman for a California state senator who has pushed stricter regulations on imitation firearms. “It happens every year.”
In a press conference on Wednesday, Santa Rosa police investigating the incident emphasized that Lopez’ airsoft gun did not have the required orange marker and public information officer Paul Henry says that the front portion had been removed. Unzipping two cases, an officer showed reporters a real AK 47-style rifle and the imitation that the teenager was carrying. “The firearm and airsoft rifle appeared remarkably similar, with matching black banana clips and brown stocks,” wrote the Santa Rosa Press Democrat. “Yet in the light of the [building where the conference was held] the model Lopez carried was clearly plastic with a transparent center section.”
I found more nuanced reporting from the Christian Science Monitor.
One officer, apparently perceiving that the tip of the gun was being raised in his direction as Andy turned, opened fire. Given that the entire encounter took place in the span of 10 seconds, Andy’s friends and family are raising questions about whether overly jumpy police officers acted too rashly. Police say officers could not distinguish a toy gun that shot plastic pellets from a real one at the 30-foot range, and reacted in line with training.
I suspect that they did act in line with training. And that's the problem.
According to Sonoma County police officials investigating the shooting, the two officers – one a veteran, one a rookie – spotted a person on Tuesday afternoon wearing a hoodie and holding what appeared to be an assault rifle in his left hand. They stopped the squad car and took cover behind its doors, police said
The officers told investigators that the person appeared to raise the barrel toward the officers as he turned around. Only after approaching the body did the officers realize the truth – that it wasn’t a threatening gunman but a boy with a toy rifle
"The deputy's mind-set was that he was fearful that he was going to be shot," said Santa Rosa police Lt. Paul Henry.
We might ask why the deputy was fearful, because again, I believe it. In that context, I note the racial and clothing component. Andy Lopez seems to have been a Latino boy, dressed in a hoodie, playing with a toy gun. I cannot prove that race and clothing shaped the outcome of this event, but I'm suspicious.

There's more, though. From The Daily Mail (which revels in U.S. violence cases). First a deputy shot Lopez, perhaps in two bursts, then approached him as he bled out.

After ordering Lopez to move away from the rifle, deputies approached the unresponsive teen as he lay on the ground and handcuffed him before administering first aid and calling for medical assistance, O'Leary said.
He's literally dying and can't obey, so before they help him, they handcuff him.

So here's the question: Are we willing to ask our police to take on a little more risk in exchange for not having kids with fake guns shot. I guess I am willing to make that exchange. Bruce Schneier, a friend of mine, writes about our fear of risk as a cultural moment as his response to some of these police incidents.
We need to relearn how to recognize the trade-offs that come from risk management, especially risk from our fellow human beings.  We need to relearn how to accept risk, and even embrace it, as essential to human progress and our free society.
And he's not wrong. We do need to make the trade-off of slightly more risk to police in exchange for more safety for the rest of us. But I still feel that risk isn't the only issue here.

It's compliance.

The police tell you to do something, you do it instantly, or they will respond with force.

Until this changes, we'll keep seeing these events in the news when something tragic happens. What we won't see are the cases where the victim isn't so sympathetic. The cult of compliance rolls on.

------------------------------------------------------------
Cross-posted and edited from my blog (updates daily) How Did We Get Into This Mess?

To read more, you could 'like' my public Facebook page.

Or you could follow me on Twitter:

Originally posted to Lollardfish on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 07:25 AM PDT.

Also republished by Police Accountability Group.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (138+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Egalitare, dkmich, Horace Boothroyd III, yoduuuh do or do not, MartyM, Yasuragi, a2nite, Aureas2, mookins, Selphinea, FloridaSNMOM, high uintas, NancyK, tofumagoo, NearlyNormal, Calfacon, wader, Mr Robert, Agathena, belinda ridgewood, Kombema, jayden, wintergreen8694, DavidMS, Wreck Smurfy, Sam Hill, OregonWetDog, owlbear1, old wobbly, dradams, Keone Michaels, Joieau, Tunk, cotterperson, Dem Beans, flitedocnm, sngmama, MarkInSanFran, spiritplumber, madgranny, Sychotic1, tgypsy, eru, Dianna, side pocket, Assaf, Mentatmark, Involuntary Exile, angelajean, Alfred E Newman, historys mysteries, DRo, deha, john07801, ichibon, Al Fondy, slowbutsure, Matt Z, armadillo, Rosaura, Alexa, BlueOak, expatjourno, Simplify, coquiero, marleycat, camlbacker, elwior, Chaddiwicker, lotlizard, emeraldmaiden, susans, one of 8, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, gerrilea, Nick Lento, Eric K, Woody, schumann, wildweasels, Kentucky DeanDemocrat, misshelly, Tool, bbctooman, BarackStarObama, filby, ModerateJosh, TracieLynn, mahakali overdrive, Miss Jones, pat bunny, IreGyre, Shotput8, missLotus, dotdash2u, wxorknot, fb, xango715, vacantlook, onionjim, roses, psnyder, chantedor, LookingUp, Born in NOLA, zerelda, lyvwyr101, rapala, Shockwave, myrmecia gulosa, rmx2630, VeloDramatic, Grandma Susie, NoMoreLies, MJ via Chicago, Powell, rebel ga, Shippo1776, sostos, NJpeach, rb608, Sassy, walkshills, splashy, richardvjohnson, remembrance, rlochow, ImpeachKingBushII, alice kleeman, science nerd, ladybug53, Denise Oliver Velez, WakeUpNeo, Lujane, Aaa T Tudeattack, kaliope, amparo fan, Oh Mary Oh
  •  It is out of control..... (38+ / 0-)

    Meet The Activist Who's Bringing Conservatives On Board The Police Reform Movement

    They all think they're dirty harry.   Hope the parents sue the department for a zillion dollars.  It is too bad the cops aren't personally liable and accountable.  

    What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Warren 2016

    by dkmich on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 07:36:19 AM PDT

  •  You have hit on something with the issue of (17+ / 0-)

    compliance.  I recently moved from California to Texas and I am completely shunned at 69 for non compliance as it is seen here.  I was raised and educated in Texas and thought I knew what I was getting into.

    However, I did not realize the difference between living in Texas Metro cities like Ssn Antonio to rural.  My Congressmen is one of the 80 who wrote the shut down letter.

    I have started studying Texas history big time and that is part of the problem much of the most important stuff to my mind is completely repressed.

    I think it is important to know that where I now live the entire area was under martial law the whole time of the Civil War.  And people were quite content with that and obviously would be again.

  •  The Scalia/Thomas/Roberts Court have consistently (25+ / 0-)

    held that all right to life ends with birth and after that it is the state that has the ultimate decision on life or death.

    While this may sound like hyperbole, I believe that Scalia (with Thomas concurring) ruled that actual proof of innocence should not be a bar to execution if that proof came after the conviction.

  •  I'm sure the hoody played a major role (8+ / 0-)

    in the cops choosing to use deadly force.

    I don't know why manufacturers continue to pump out these look-alike weapons when kids keep getting killed for them... though that's another issue altogether.

    One gentle suggestion: that you revise your title to "Boy with Toy Gun Shot by Cops Because etc."  Maybe it's just me, but my reading of the title on the recent list had me puzzled, thinking the cops had used a toy gun to shoot the kid.  ;)

    Isn't it time for the US Govt to give Leonard Peltier back his freedom? ** "Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." -- Willie Stargell

    by Yasuragi on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 08:00:36 AM PDT

  •  In rural areas failure to comply has major (9+ / 0-)

    repercussions.  I think that is rural across the country too.

    I have visited lots of these small towns but never lived in one before.  I have really started observing their difference.

    Where I live there is a history of unsolved murders and burning homes to the ground for non compliance to the socially accepted. One of the unsolved murders was a high school teacher who was writing a historical book.  Neither her home or her personal school computer were ever found and were the only things missing.

    One of the ways they get compliance is by this being a known reality.  Texas would proably turn blue sooner if not for this fact.  Every small town seems to have about 30% of the population that are seen as outsiders.  

    I live a 100 miles from Dallas and I know a woman who moved here direct from there and they call her an immigrant.

    •  I've looked at this... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yoduuuh do or do not

      ...and most of these small towns are shrinking in population as the country becomes more urbanized.

      Young people go off never to return. College graduates rarely return to the small towns from which they hail. There is a "brain drain" in these places.

      Who's left? The people without many resources to leave. Insular, ignorant, "clinging to guns and religion" to give them meaning. Sorry, sad, bitter people who cannot accept they are a product of their own choices.

      The "other" is easier to blame.

      "Wealthy the Spirit which knows its own flight. Stealthy the Hunter who slays his own fright. Blessed is the Traveler who journeys the length of the Light."

      by CanisMaximus on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 01:19:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, my idiot nephew (15+ / 0-)

    He's into air soft guns big time. He owns several and customizes them to make them work better. He goes out to compete in "capture the flag" games every weekend. He says everyone covers the orange part of the guns with camo tape.

    In his defense he says they always call police dispatch to let them know where they are and what they are doing. That there are a bunch of post-teens running around the hillside with toy guns.

    Problem is, the little kids see the big kids with the tape on their guns and think it's the cool thing to do.


    i just baptized andrew breitbart into the church of islam, planned parenthood, the girl scouts and three teachers unions. - @blainecapatch

    by bobinson on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 08:12:01 AM PDT

  •  I'm generally the last (17+ / 0-)

    person to defend the police, but what are they supposed to do here?  Someone points a gun at them that looks exactly like a real gun.  Are they supposed to be psychic?  Given all the shootings lately is it a surprise they're hyper-vigilant?  Want to solve this problem?  Put an end to these toys.

    •  As I said, it's complicated (17+ / 0-)

      I acknowledge your point ,but ...

      How long did they wait? How fast did they pull the trigger? Would they have reacted differently if it was a white kid in a white neighborhood? Why did they shoot to kill rather than disable? There are plenty of questions despite the complexity.

      •  We don't (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        leevank, Flying Goat

        know, But this is one of the rare instances where I sympathize with cops.  A gun was pointed at them.

        •  Lots of people with cell phones, or nothing, in (16+ / 0-)

          their hands have also been shot. Funny that most of them appear to be people of color. The shoot first ask questions later approach is just one symptom of the militarization of policing in which the benefit of the doubt leans more and more heavily toward the police. There needs to be a rethinking of this trend, at a minimum.

          "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by Kombema on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 09:57:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Some get shot watering their lawns. (10+ / 0-)

            Because cops can't tell the difference between a garden hose and a gun.

            And, yeah, a white guy in that case.  While we shouldn't ignore the racial component (or sometimes major motivating factor) in many of these cases it's also dangerous to foster the illusion that white and/or middle class people are in any way immune to these excesses.

            "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

            by JesseCW on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 11:52:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, there's definitely a class element to it, as (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nada Lemming, CenPhx

              well. White folks not immune. Just somewhat less likely to lose the benefit of the doubt battle.

              "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

              by Kombema on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 06:12:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  4 cops drew down on me (5+ / 0-)

              As I was getting out of my car at my home.  I hit the deck really fast.  Turned out they were looking for someone who was suspected of drunk driving.  How in the world is it appropriate to draw your gun in a DUI situation?  I was wearing a suit and it was 3:30 in the afternoon AMD I was perfectly sober.

              But if O hadn't witnessed people get shot by cops, I might have hesitated and gotten some ventilation myself.  

              It puts the lotion on its skin

              by Nada Lemming on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 07:12:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  A somewhat similar incident (4+ / 0-)

            to this one happened in my neighborhood a few years ago.  Guy wandering around with a realistic toy gun and the cops get called.  Guy does not comply right away to drop the gun but the cops eventually convinced him to drop it instead of shooting him right away.  

            I heard later that they could tell it was a toy after looking at it for a bit so that's why they were so relatively patient although I will note this guy was white.

            •  did the person in question (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Flying Goat

              point the weapon at the cops after being ordered to drop it? I would think that is a major factor in why the cops reacted so quickly in the incident detailed in the diary.

               

              Guy wandering around with a realistic toy gun and the cops get called.  Guy does not comply right away to drop the gun but the cops eventually convinced him to drop it instead of shooting him right away.  
              •  We still don't know if by "point" the kid just (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CenPhx, NearlyNormal

                turned around with the gun in hand. Quite possible they were being loose with the characterization. Or maybe he DID "point" it at them. Seems low probability unless he is developmentally disabled.

                "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                by Kombema on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 06:15:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  You don't know that (8+ / 0-)

          He was walking and carrying a rifle.  When yelled at, he turned around and was shot.  The cop said he saw the barrel "rising" toward him.

          Did the kid have two hands on the gun?  Did he shoulder it?  Take aim?  If he was carrying it at his side, I doubt his hand was anywhere near the trigger and I'm sure he couldn't have fired it from knee level.

          A highly-experienced cop should be better able to spot true danger.  This sounds more like criminal negligence.

          Guns don't kill people but there's always one there at the time of death.

          by john07801 on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 11:54:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We actually do know. Read up on this please (8+ / 0-)

          It was twenty seconds that he didn't hear the police. Then, when he turned around, he was shot and fell to the ground within 2-10 seconds. He is reported to have shouted "Stop" either from the ground or while falling. Then he was dead, but the police shot him another 6-7 more times. There may be video of this. There were eyewitnesses. Autopsy confirms much of this. The police certainly have video in their cars, and the fact that the FBI will investigate indicates that they will find that video. What they will do with it is not something I can guess. I do know that the Sheriff, whom I know well, loathes the FBI.

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 02:59:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  the cops SAY a gun was pointed at them... (3+ / 0-)

          they may have believed that the gun was going to end up pointing at them... they shot first before the threat was actually established.... how pre-emptive are they allowed to be...? What they thought and thought they saw may not have matched reality at all... over and over again a video shows cops whose perceptions were totally wrong... or that they just flat out lied... already had an idea of the situation... did not try to confirm it and just went all hair trigger adrenaline having already prejudged a situation and saw that they expected to see, not what was actually there....

          Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

          by IreGyre on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 03:08:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  They never "shoot to disable." (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gramofsam1, Mad Season, cville townie

        First, how does one shoot to disable someone from firing a gun?  Shooting somebody in the legs doesn't do that.  But even more importantly, if they start "shooting to disable," there's likely to be a lot more shooting by police officers, and even more people killed and wounded.

        Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

        by leevank on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 12:09:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Negotiate (9+ / 0-)

      talk to the guy. defuse the situation not escalate it.

      •  He pointed a gun (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        leevank, slipper, Flying Goat

        at them.  They're not psychic.

        •  The kid likely had no context to understand (31+ / 0-)

          what they were talking about - he didn't see the toy gun as a dangerous item, so would need time to process just what they were yelling at him.  Of course he would turn around with the toy still in his hands - to him, there's no problem at all with what he's holding.  And, he was correct to think so.

          Even many adults would likely need a bit more time to understand what they heck was setting these police officers off.

          Police seem more inclined to presume that anyone around them is a potential threat to their health and/or authority.  And yet, in this case they apparently were prudent enough to use their car as a shield - that wouldn't have provided enough margin of safety to more fairly ascertain whether this was a hostile threat or simply a kid with a toy wondering why the heck police were yelling in his direction?

          Not much sympathy for the police, here.  They unnecessarily killed an innocent kid by mere virtue of the power granted them and will need to live with that fact, but that kid and his family had an entire future taken away in one, stupid, fearful instant.

          "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

          by wader on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 09:31:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  kids in my son's neighborhood are always playing (13+ / 0-)

            war with their toy guns. On any given summer night you'll see boys running around pretend killing people. One one hand I hate that sight. I hate seeing sweet little boys pretend to kill each other and everyone around them. On the other, now I have to worry about the police killing them all.

            •  The point is they really shouldn't have those toys (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kombema

              There are so many other things they could be doing, and our culture really has gone way too far toward gun worship.



              Women create the entire labor force.
              ---------------------------------------------
              Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

              by splashy on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 06:52:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Toy guns, replicas (0+ / 0-)

              If the "toy guns" the kids are playing with are replicas that look exactly like real assault weapons, it would be a good idea for them to keep the bright orange plastic gizmos visible rather than removing them or concealing them.

              The people who are at risk if they are out in public with something that appears to be an assault weapon--one that can fire dozens of rounds in a minute or two--are the those carrying the replicas and acting like they want to shoot people.

              The kids with the replicas can't hurt anybody--but they can be hurt, as we see in this tragic case.

              •  Agreed (0+ / 0-)

                American Gun Culture is as much to blame as anyone or anything else - when everyone is perceived to be armed, then the police have no choice but to assume that everyone is armed.   Factor in the shooting by another kid less than 24 hours earlier and the realistic appearance of that toy gun, and this type of shit is inevitable.

          •  exactly! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wader
          •  This is the problem. (15+ / 0-)
            Even many adults would likely need a bit more time to understand what they heck was setting these police officers off.
            How many of us have had a policeman point a gun at them? (I have)  It takes a few seconds to process the fact that officers are pointing guns at YOU, you're seen as a danger. These fractions of seconds trying to figure out what is happening are seen as non compliance.
            •  You nailed it. (4+ / 0-)
              These fractions of seconds trying to figure out what is happening are seen as non compliance.
              Additionally, "resisting arrest" is in far too many instances a bullshit, trumped up charge.

              This cult of compliance is plenty evident. Watch COPS and you will see it in full force.

              One particular episode had the man surrendering to the police. Hands on top of his head interlaced with his back to the officers as he was exclaiming that he was giving up after running from the police.

              Several officers were screaming for the man to get on the ground. The pavement was wet and the man kept asking what for? No need to lay in the filthy lot he said.

              The police were having none of that. They tackled and threw him to the pavement as his hands were still on his head.

              The cops were livid. When they had him down, they were yelling, "stop resisting." Clearly the man wasn't resisting and the cops came across like thugs and unprofessional.

              "We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." Louis Brandeis

              by wxorknot on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 04:25:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  addendum...don't necessarily agree with concluding (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wader

            paragraph. We can't possibly know for certain they "unnecessarily killed an innocent kid" even if all the other data and questions you bring up are  valid. Overall his death was of course Unnecessary but in the decision moment given the information the cops had we can't be sure at that time it didn' t seem necessary to them. We were not there. It sucks the kid cannot of course speak for himself; maybe witnesses or forensic evidence will...but probably not.

            •  I'm willing to take that back (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kombema, NearlyNormal

              if the 13 year-old was shown to have been offering a purposefully threatening posture to the police, in some manner that few could discern was sincere or joking.

              In my mind, it leads from the prior points: if they were giving him enough leeway to calibrate his thinking on "what the heck is going on?" and he responded in a manner which showed that he directly responded to their calls for disarmament (or whatever they yelled in his direction), then more grey could be considered in the situation towards the officers, IMHO.

              In the end, the 13 year-old with a toy is dead and parents everywhere should be even more concerned with letting their kids out in public holding toy weapons of all types, I feel.  With Halloween coming soon.

              "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

              by wader on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 01:27:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I imagine it could likely have been (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wader

                that they yelled at him and he didn't realize they were yelling at HIM right away since he wasn't doing anything wrong (that's happened to me before). So then he just turns around and since he had been pointing the gun it was still pointed.

                The faulty human perception of the officers could have thought "gun is pointed at me...lethal danger...shoot". They only have a second to act.

                I wonder if they are taught to look at the facial expression, or what they are taught around making a quick judgment. Plenty of kids had toy guns for the last few generations that could easily look quite real. Why didn't officers shoot people so often back then? (if that is as true as it seems to be). You also didn't used to hear very often that someone had been reaching for a comb or a wallet and they thought it was a gun and shot him

                I work with families with kids and I tell them if they must allow them toy guns, get them in neon colors so they look nothing like the real thing. When they get to older childhood they sometimes don't like the unrealistic look and give up that line of play.

                Not criticizing the kid at all but isn't 13 a bit old to have a toy gun?Maybe I missed that it was part of a costume or something.

        •  Of course they say he pointed the gun. (14+ / 0-)

          They have to justify the killing. Whereas you automatically believe their version of events I don't anymore.

          The FBI is now looking into the case.

        •  remember..it is only that They Say they perceived (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lotlizard, coquiero, CenPhx

          the gun as pointed at them. It is plausable, true, but also true is the pressure there must be to believe that in the moment you didn't over react. And also there is pressure..crushing pressure...to have had a good reason to have shot to kill a kid and not lose one's job, be sued, or go to jail. Sure we'd like to think police officers would own up to reflexively stereotyping and prematurely shooting to kill before a gun was pointed at them. But If that was what had actually occured what is the likelyhood the officer would be honest about his grave error? I believe the officers' stories are plausable but the kid is not around to tell any other side of it. We make a mistake to 100% believe "evidence" derived only through the people left alive in a conflict when the other party has been killed by them so cannot speak.

        •  So they claim now (6+ / 0-)

          Originally, when this was just a local story and the outrage had not exploded yet there was no such claim.

          I know because I was reading about it from the start and was  kind of surprised there was no mention of the kid pointing the gun at the cops.  Mind you, this was reporting that included quotes from law enforcement about the incident so they certainly could have added that info at the time.

          Maybe he did point it at them, but it could also be that the cops are trying to cover their asses.  Yes, cops lie sometimes.

          Get this wording:

          apparently perceiving that the tip of the gun was being raised in his direction as Andy turned
          Not exactly "he pointed the gun at them".  
    •  There has to be a better way (7+ / 0-)

      Andy Lopez was blown away.  He was shot 7 times.  All shots fired by one officer.  This is totally intent to kill imo.

      •  Doesn't the fact that officer #2 (2+ / 0-)

        never shot him say anything to anyone about what a "threat" Andy Lopez was perceived to be? If he'd been a big threat, officer #2 would had also shot him. Instead, officer #1, excuse me, Sergeant and Deputy Sheriff #1, shot him seven times, including after he was dead and on the ground. With twenty-four years in the force, you'd think he'd known better. But maybe this wasn't the first person he'd killed and had grown a bit... paranoid. Officers like that shouldn't be on the force.

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 03:03:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And then they shoot people for reaching for their (9+ / 0-)

      wallets.

      The problem is that most of our police have an insanely inflated vision of the actual risk they're in while at work.  

      They're more likely to die in uniform of heart failure than from being shot, but they believe that every twitch a "suspect" makes is some life or death moment, because they've unfortunately been trained as an army of occupation rather than as public servants.

      Being a cop is risky.  It means asking questions first and shooting latter, even if that takes the odds of dying from one in 50,000 to one in 40,000.

      We, as a society, have failed when we accept the argument that our police have a right to kill rather than face any risk at all.  

      "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

      by JesseCW on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 11:50:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rules of Engagement (4+ / 0-)

      Until 2010 the military's Rules of Engagement in Afghanistan required the bad guys to shoot first before our soldiers could return fire. That is also how the Rules of Engagement were depicted in Black Hawk Down as our forces initially entered the civilian neighborhoods of Mogadishu. Why don't those rules apply in our own neighborhoods? Why are cops allowed to shoot first on the mere suspicion that a person is going to try to do them harm? Are our own citizens less worth protecting than civilians in countries our military is operating?

      There's a difference between a responsible gun owner and one that's been lucky so far.

      by BeerNotWar on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 01:48:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He didn't point it at them (4+ / 0-)

      there were a lot of eyewitnesses. He turned around, as ordered. I don't think he knew the police were even addressing him. He may have thought it was a friend. At either rate, he was surprised. NOWHERE has anyone said he "pointed" a gun at anyone. He didn't. Again, he was walking with a legal toy gun, was told to "stand down," didn't hear or understand it, finally turned around, and was shot.

      And then was shot six-seven more times after he was dead as neighbors and family members watched at 3:15 in the afternoon, some rushing outside, in horror at what happened.

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 02:57:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How does one shoot a rifle when carrying it (0+ / 0-)

      with your left hand?  I haven't shot a rifle in years but I expect that would be hard to do.

    •  That was my first thought (0+ / 0-)

      Considering all the massacres that have been happening, along with the huge numbers of guns in the US, especially the semi-automatics that can kill so many so fast, what are they supposed to do?

      I blame the NRA and the other gun pushers, along with the War on  Drugs for this militarization of the police.

      It's an arms race, with too many innocents caught in the line of fire.



      Women create the entire labor force.
      ---------------------------------------------
      Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

      by splashy on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 06:49:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

      There is no evidence that he "pointed" the gun, at best the evidence indicates that the gun came up while turning.  The other officer didn't fire any shots.  And it doesn't look "exactly" like a real gun either.  Do you think you would be justified if you shot the kid?  

      And the nonsense about all the shootings lately....turn your damned television off then you won't be so afraid.  Some kid shoots someone in Nevada and that justifies a cop in Santa Rosa getting itchy trigger fingers?  
      There was much more violence in the 50's and 60's it just didn't get reported.  Mostly you heard about what was in your area or maybe your state.  Proportional thinking is another casualty of the steady drone of "if it bleeds it leads" reporting.

      This is a bad shooting by a cop that spent a lot of time thumping heads in that section of time as part of the "Gang Task Force".

      75534 4-ever or until dk5

      by NearlyNormal on Mon Oct 28, 2013 at 07:38:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

      Not only that, but this happened the day after that 12-year-old kid in Nevada shot three people at his local middle school.  

      I'd bet THAT had more to do with the cops' mindset than ethnicity or the clothes Andy Lopez wore that day - despite this diarists best efforts to turn this into another Trayvon Martin situation.

  •  The risk we ask the cops to take and they (4+ / 0-)

    take is to confront someone with a weapon.  The risk of waiting for someone to turn with the weapon without dropping it is one they'd lose.  This isn't a western movie with the quick draw winning. Clearly an order to drop the weapon and shooting at the same time is not to be tolerated. Also facts surrounding the shooting can lead to a show a wrong doing by the cops.  We need to have confidence in the review process and that confidence is lacking in many cases.  

    I've told my kids to do exactly what the cops say and don' t mouth off or argue with them.  Even if they are right they are going to lose.  Might get peppered sprayed or beat down or even shot.  

    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.

    by thestructureguy on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 08:20:18 AM PDT

  •  Was this before or after the Sparks, NV shooting? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FloridaSNMOM, True North

    Clearly, Apple employs way too many people with nothing better to do.

    by here4tehbeer on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 08:21:22 AM PDT

  •  This is what happens when you allow steep power (9+ / 0-)

    differentials between people.

    The Stanford prison experiment doesn't just apply to guard-prisoner relationships...

    Patriotism is another word for nationalism. Nationalism is another word for bigotry.

    by Selphinea on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 08:46:17 AM PDT

  •  I hate to say this, (16+ / 0-)

    but the real underlying reason behind incidents like this, is because too many cops get into the gig because they see themselves as macho guys.

    Then when confronted on the street, they wet themselves and start shooting.  They aren't "protecting" anything but their own sorry, coward selves.

    Had to be said.


    I'm not an atheist. How can you not believe in something that doesn't exist? That's way too convoluted for me. - A. Whitney Brown

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 08:51:31 AM PDT

  •  10 seconds is relative. (9+ / 0-)

    All time periods of 10 seconds are not perceived equally.

    Research suggests that time seems to slow down when a person skydives or bungee jumps, or when a person suddenly and unexpectedly senses the presence of a potential predator . . .
    I am waiting for more investigation.

    Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

    by 88kathy on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 08:59:17 AM PDT

  •  Risk assessment/management (9+ / 0-)

    Until we expunge the aphorism "better safe than sorry" from our lexicon we are doomed to advocates falling back on that sentiment as the baseline for risk assessment and risk management.

    My own personal experience with the problem that aphorism presents appeared in the '90s as I was involved in several woodworking fora. A spector had been raised among woodworkers who had installed dust collection systems in their shops and who used plastic pipe for transport that a spark from static electricity generated by moving, dust-laden air, could cause an explosion which might destroy their shops.

    Cooler heads in the woodworking community expressed skepticism over the potential (ha, ha) for such an eventuality, and considerable discussion ensued. I, among others, called for a single example of a home shop dust collection explosion episode, which never materialized.

    The fear had been based on grain elevator dust explosions, a real phenomenon known for years, but as the legend grew, it became apparent that comparisons against scale were at play. A friend at MIT wrote a paper based on some scholarly research he had conducted involving real science, real math, real models, etc. The crux of the research was that the error in the conclusions being promulgated lay in scale—big grain elevators and small dust collectors don't have much in common, including explosions.

    I also found a very good article on someone's blog that pretty much explains it all, minus the tricky math.

    The point of my comment, however, is that when presenting real world thinking and logic to perpetrators of the myth, their response was pretty much to shrug their shoulders and mutter, "well, better safe than sorry," or some lame equivalent.

    If one's risk management consists of accepting none at all, it's not possible to live any kind of life nor is it to have a reasonable discussion.

    LRod—UID 238035
    ZJX, ORD, ZAU retired
    My ATC site
    My Norm's Tools site

    by exatc on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 09:03:46 AM PDT

  •  "accept risk, and even embrace it" Is certainly.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RainyDay

    ...good advice for a newbie in the stock market however, responding to a command promptly is too valuable a bit of advice not to be accepted and followed in my opinion.
    Surely the author & readers can think of emergent situations in which very quick action by persons whom, when given a life saving command for themselves or others, need to comply
    STAT.
    Even if the boy was recognized as a child, he placed himself in an emergent situation by having removed the guns warning, that it was a toy. Please be mindful of the recent in schools massacres committed by children with guns. One does not need to be an adult to kill.
    Was the shots,that killed the boy, fired by the rookie officer?
    Even if police training encourages officers to assume risk by
    assuming a delay in firing their weapon, there is no accounting
    for action taken by the inexperienced.

  •  Do they always have to aim to kill with multiple (7+ / 0-)

    rounds? With all their technology, and if they are "forced" to shoot, why not shoot for the extremities not the body?

    RIP another victim of gun violence.

    To thine ownself be true

    by Agathena on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 09:33:36 AM PDT

  •  It was the hoodie. Police are armed and the NRA (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden, coquiero

    wants everyone armed and ready to shoot. Wonder how many would die then. It is always amazing how after the event the victim is blamed for not dancing a jig on one toe.

    Fear is the Mind Killer...

    by boophus on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 09:38:14 AM PDT

  •  I've never understood why anyone, let alone (12+ / 0-)

    a parent, would allow someone to have an exact replica of any gun. It is a recipe for disaster. In an age like today where anyone can be a mass murderer bent on shooting as many strangers as they can I find it hard to blame a police officer for this sort of horrible mistake that took away a child's life and will almost assuredly haunt him for the rest of his life.

    Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

    by Mike S on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 09:53:56 AM PDT

    •  Me neither (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mike S, jan4insight

      But turn on your TV. Guns are cool. Gun-play is cool. So kids ask and parents give.

      •  I worked at a store that sold real and fake (4+ / 0-)

        guns a long time ago. The glock style BB gun was a favorite among kids and it drove me crazy. The store was just outside of Compton and when the kids came in and got excited just looking at them it just made me sad. Every aspect of the gun fan culture drives me crazy. I am not anti gun, just anti gun fanatic.

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 10:15:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Young boys are really in love with guns (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mike S, True North

      Around here they get taught to shoot at a young age with bb guns.  There is a real gun culture here, you should see all the bumper stickers about guns

      The more real looking the toy gun, the more they want it.  The parents probably tell the kids don't go outside with it, and think nothing will ever happen.  But parents work a lot and  a lot of kids are unsupervised these days too, there are bound to be accidents

    •  I had plenty of toy guns as a child (0+ / 0-)

      ...and no one got hurt.

      But I lived in a time where school shootings, assault rifles, mass-murders, and killer-kids were rare-to-non-existent.

      It's the opposite of a brave new world.

      There are plenty of examples of cops behaving badly - but I don't think this is one of them.

  •  No one is addressing this from far enough back (10+ / 0-)

    in the sequence of events.

    Why did the deputies come within 30 ft of someone walking with a gun?

    They radioed for backup.  Why not then stay a couple of hundred feet or more away?  Why not figure out just what is going on? If they were in back and could not tell who or how old this person was why not have another unit surveill first from the  front at long distance using binoculars?

    There was no immediate threat. The person wasn't pulling some sort of shopping mall execution.  He was just walking along.

    Instead, they roll up close, order someone whose probably thinking about things 13 year olds think about and not paying any attention to "drop the weapon" which doesn't even make sense to the kid, startling him, causing him to turn, and then the deputy fires eight rounds.

    •  one error in your comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Flying Goat
      There was no immediate threat.
      There's always an immediate threat when someone is holding something that looks like a gun. Frankly, anyone who owns a gun is a threat to the rest of society 24 hours a day.
      •  And wallets, and phones and garden hoses... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive

        all those and plenty of other harmless items were seen as immediate threats... even totally unarmed people... as in not even holding a non weapon with a hand in a pocket have been gunned down as immediate threats.

        there is something wrong when these kinds of things keep happening...

        The paranoia, adrenaline, fantasies and incompetence of cops should not be an automatic defense for gunning someone down.

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

        by IreGyre on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 03:20:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right...when it's a garden hose, or a wallet, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slipper

          or a phone...  In this case, however, it was quite clearly none of those things.

          •  But the mind set behind the response... SAME (0+ / 0-)

            they do shoot sooner than is defensible far too often... it really boils down to cops lives are more valuable than expendable civilians. That boy and thousands of others are the public that police are employed to protect... the protect and serve motto seems to only apply to police when there is the slightest doubt or an indefensible paranoia or disastrous assumption...

            Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

            by IreGyre on Mon Oct 28, 2013 at 06:41:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks jpmassar (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shotput8, jpmassar, sngmama

      I feel like I'm taking crazy-pills at this point reading some of the comments here.

      Note that they didn't say "drop the weapon" but "stand down."

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 03:09:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive

        The kid hears something that doesn't make any sense in the context he is in, he doesn't know who is saying it or why, then he turns to look and he is dead.

        •  In a nutshell (0+ / 0-)

          Yes. That's what happened. Also, they kept shooting him well after he'd already died.

          Poor kid. I've been sick with grief about it.

          It's just not that complicated. I don't know why people are trying to make it complicated either. It's pretty much cut-and-dry here.

          Are you going to make it up to the march, by any chance? On Tuesday? It might be kind of far to travel, but I think it will be pretty big and the emotion is really palpable.

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 05:41:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I may go. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mahakali overdrive

            I came down with a bout of gout on Thursday which is only now getting better (and which prevented me from marching in the Urban Shield march on Friday).  I don't know whether it will have disappeared by Tuesday or not.

            There will be a fair number of OO peeps there.

            If you'd like, look for Mollie Costello (the speaker in the video).  She will almost certainly be there.  Introduce yourself as a fellow (hmmm, is that a male-gendered term?) Kossack and rec'cer of my diaries.  (heh)

      •  Stand down? (0+ / 0-)

        I didn't realize that the command was to "stand down." What the heck does that mean to someone who isn't in the police or military business?

        "Drop your weapon" would take a few moments for a person with a replica, not a real gun, to process, but at least it is a normal statement.

        •  It's a little unclear because the reports (0+ / 0-)

          are sometimes being translated in and out of Spanish; the one English-speaking person who witnessed it stated that this was the phrase used.

          Regardless of what was said, no law-abiding, barely-pubescent kid in his right mind, wandering around playing in a rural field in California, happy as only a young kid can be, would even know that he was in trouble.

          Moreover, three of the four eyewitnesses who have now publicly identified themselves state that the officers shot him from inside of their vehicles. The fourth didn't comment on that, to my knowledge.

          There will be more. There were a lot of people around. Many just didn't speak English and some aren't documented and may be intimidated about speaking out for fear of being deported.

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 07:27:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  California has recently had a rash of cops (5+ / 0-)

    seeming to go overboard in the last three or so months and in places where we haven't seen it before.  I wonder if there is something out there, or someone who is looking at this uptick of what I see as unnecessary violence in our police actions.

    "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

    by Sychotic1 on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 10:38:46 AM PDT

  •  And yet millions of conservatives (5+ / 0-)

    feel they have a "constitutional right" to open carry any weapon they like, anywhere. Obviously, these are white men who presume that no cop would ever perfunctorily shoot them for not INSTANTLY complying with an order that might not have been even clearly heard, much less instantly understood.

    Just a typical example of white privilege and white arrogance.

    Just imagine the outrage should a black police officer gun down a conservative white guy carrying his "constitutionally protected" AK-47 down the street. Fox News would have a field day. No blaming the victim there, you can be assured.

    Apparently, brown teenagers with toy guns have no "constitutional right" to open carry weapons. And police have the right to shoot to kill as long as their target is brown and wearing a hoodie.

  •  And people wonder why I banned toy guns... (5+ / 0-)

    from my house.

    Initially it was because it set off my PTSD if I had one pointed at me...

    Mental illness and paranoia become a potential lifesaver?  

    We are living in the age of insanity.  If you aren't insane the nature of the insane world will kill you...

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 11:46:08 AM PDT

  •  I'm not against toy guns, but that one is terrible (6+ / 0-)

    From the photos it looks dead on like a real gun. I can't imagine why someone would manufacture it, I CAN understand why a 12 year old boy would want one, but I also can't understand how a parent would allow their child to own one. I hope the parents just didn't know he had it. Jesus. What a tragedy.

  •  not just the police (0+ / 0-)

    this happened 10 months ago in San Francisco's Castro, as liberal a district as you could find in this country.

    I'm still boycotting Cliff's and am saddened every time I walk past it, which is almost every day. I'd been a loyal customer since 1988.

    regardless of your opinion of the target or tactic, I think you'll find this disturbing. if you don't, well go to the mirror and start asking questions

    "we're flying high on affluenza, mounting severed servants heads on the credenza" -Sanctuary City of the Rich

    by Xavior Breff on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 12:19:52 PM PDT

  •  The cops are an occupying army (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dianna

    and the US is an occupied country.

  •  as long as we hire cowards and bullies (0+ / 0-)

    and give them weapons this will continue to happen. Any cop that kills anyone must be immediately and permanently removed from ever working in law enforcement again in any capacity.Dead civilians are a tragedy dead cops assumed the risk.

  •  Definitely a cult of compliance with the police (5+ / 0-)

    I am not willing to say that the rest of society  has a cult of compliance, but the police have been increasingly embracing this.

    I got stopped for a speeding ticket though I did not realize I was driving out of the limits.  I handed all documentation even before being asked. But I was upset in NY even small tickets can cost a lot of money due to the "surcharge".  I tried to plead for mercy and was told that I was obstructing the law. When I said but I handed you everything before being asked. His response but you have to by law (yes that's why I am not obstructing).

    Another time years earlier, I was pulled over for having my high beams on. Apparently the officer followed me quite a long way but I had no idea and when I came up to an intersection and suddenly his lights when on, I frantically tried to pull out of the way as the law requires, which made me go to a different road and pull over until he passed only of course he didn't. He told me he was about to call in a chase on me.

    I did not see his lights since he was in back of me. And I mean the idea that I was going to do a chase for, for high beams?

    I've gone into a police station to file an empty house report, seen no one because of one way glass, said Hello? Hello? No answer. I can't see you. The response, well we can see you, as if I was a law breaker.

    I've had police knock on our door when our car, on our property faced the wrong way. When I told him I couldn't drive and had to get my husband this must have angered him because by the time my incredulous husband got there and wondered what the big deal was, the officer threatened him.

    I've had them get attitude when they came to my door in response to a 911 number done by my baby.

    And I've had a sister in law who is police officer in Texas say that they are trained to shoot 30 plus times.

    The police have gotten it into their head that we owe them perfect submissive behavior, no matter the situation.  As if each and every citizen is about to kill them. This isn't a failure to embrace risk, this is plain old paranoia.

    •  Im sorry you had to go through all that but I know (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kentucky DeanDemocrat, Powell

      what you're talking about, and you're not alone.  I know someone who gets harassed by the police at night coming home from a hard nights work.  They complained to the police in person and I also told them to keep a diary of the abuse.  Who has time, what will it really get you?

      I've only gotten treated that way at the airport, you know, after the Bush years when everything changed for the worst.  It's an awful feeling being treated like a criminal.  They are really mean at LAX and I've heard them make sexual harassment jokes and people have to take it, because what are people supposed to do these days, except as you say, shut up and be "compliant"

      That word is horrible, but you are right on about the "cult of compliance."   My dad recently got a new CPAP machine (helps with sleep apnea), so the new machines have chips in them and they call them "compliance chips" they record you and they can see if you are wearing it, or "compliant" or they can literally take it away from you.  I just want to tell the oxygen company to shove their compliance up their ass, but of course, we have to be compliant, or they will now take the machine away (or make you pay for it uninsured).  It makes you feel gross, like you're in jail being watched and monitored for compliant behavior.

      You're not alone in noticing these things.  We all have to live in this punitive society where it feels like there is one step between being compliant and falling down

  •  I bet those cops were ex-military. (4+ / 0-)

    A lot of cops have recently experienced combat, where waiting a split second can get you killed. So they treat our streets like combat zones.

    That's why police forces shouldn't hire ex-military at all. It's the exact wrong training for dealing with civilians.

    •  And waiting a split second too long CAN'T get ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Powell

      killed if you're a cop?

      Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

      by leevank on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 01:07:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  treating all civilian situations like warfare?? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shockwave, Powell, mahakali overdrive

        a recipe for tragedy. And for all the well trained cops who do not let their power got to their heads... there are plenty of others, far too many others who are sick puppies, paranoids, power trippers and combat hardened lifers who have no business being cops... they are disasters waiting to happen and even if they do not kill an innocent and the worse never happens, their hostility and tendency to violence brings a siege mentality, gestapo approach that poisons a free society.

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

        by IreGyre on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 03:28:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Have you ever been a cop? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Powell, True North

          Have you ever ridden along with them to see what they do?  Have you ever gone through a shoot/don't shoot course of the type that cops have to do?

          Yes, there are bad apples in law enforcement, as there are in every profession, but what caused this young man's death was the fact that he was carrying an air rifle that was essentially indistinguishable from an assault weapon, and that he didn't obey an order to drop it, and began turning toward the cop and appeared to be raising the weapon.  There should be an investigation, and there will be, but at this point, there is zero evidence that this cop was one of the bad apples, yet most people here seem willing to condemn him without bothering to have any idea of what he was experiencing.

          Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

          by leevank on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 04:38:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  plenty of white guys with guns do not get shot (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mahakali overdrive

            by police... could be that in this instance it was just a combination of all the wrong things and perceptions coming to a head in 10 seconds...

            The cops check out the situation and the right to bear arms guy lives to see another day... so why not have that more balanced approach in other situations?... Like with a trained professional shooting down a 13 year old holding a plastic toy?... it was realistic looking?... OK... but there are literally millions of toy guns out there... is there any training whatsoever that mentions this fact?.... and ways to AVOID shooting down the wrong people? Presumably so but judging by the "oops... killed the wrong person again, accidents happen, nothing to see here, all done according to the protect the cops from any responsibility for their actions" climate...probably not something they spend a lot of time on.

            Far too many shooting incident get smoothed over, the policies and procedures were all fine and dandy per the report of the cops who did the shooting and their superiors who cover for them and the cops walk and the only exceptions are when it is just so bleeding obvious they messed up and the public reacts particularly strongly... then the review gets "reopened"... and in the end maybe there is a temporary desk job or reassignment or suspension or sometimes they actually even lose their job... and sometimes... sometimes.... might see a number of months in jail... but far too often that is only after people raise a  big stink about what the did and that they paid little or no penalty for it...
            the public that is being protected and served has to push hard and loudly for justice...

            Yes, cops do protect and serve... they do tackle the bad guys... but actually outside of high crime areas most of the time things are routine and boring... so boring that when anything out of the ordinary seems to happen every police car in the county shows up just for the sheer novelty... and help arrest a bedridden old lady... or shoot down a 90 year old in a nursing home... and the list is endless of the overkill and piling on... shooting people's dogs in their back yards or who knows what...
            pumping a barrage of rounds into the back of a truck driven by two middle aged women delivering newspapers...
            lucky for them the bales of papers saved their lives... a lot of other people are not so fortunate...
            sure the "bad apples" are a minority but all the good apples stick up for them almost all of the time....

            Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

            by IreGyre on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 05:53:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  US MIL (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Powell, mahakali overdrive

      I'm told by reliable sources that US MIL procedure in this kind of case is shoot to disable, not to kill. And that's in actual war zones.

    •  Cops have become occupation forces (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Powell, mahakali overdrive

      The number of veterans in police forces will increase and curiously the number of veterans in crime gangs will also increase.

      Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

      by Shockwave on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 05:01:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Since when is carrying an assault rifle, real or (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Powell

    toy, on the streets of America a crime? It's plenty OK at Tea Party rallies against the President. That cop should go down for infringing on the Second Amendment.

    •  That is right! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Powell

      With laws allowing all kinds of guns to be carried at almost all locations - open and concealed, the cops were way out of line. What is the fine for 'accidentally' carrying a real gun where you shouldn't? There is no law about carrying toy guns while walking around.

      Either way, why do the cops get to conduct daily executions in this country with no fear of serious punishment? Where was the arrest, trial, defense attorney, judge and jury?

  •  There's a Reason Cops Don't Have Ph.D.s (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IreGyre, Powell

    If your career choice is law enforcement, you might want to protect and serve the public. Or, you just might want to kick a little ass from time to time and get paid to do it.

    We will never have the elite, smart people on our side. - Rick Santorum

    by easong on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 01:45:31 PM PDT

    •  Did you ever read this "Court OKs Barring High IQs (3+ / 0-)

      for Cops"

      http://abcnews.go.com/...

      Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.

      Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average.

      •  and lucky if they are that smart... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dianna, Powell

        a whole lot of them were jocks and C- students... who resented "smart" kids in high school... and after becoming cops love nothing better than to lord it over anyone who thinks they are smarter than the cop... even though the odds are good that they are... the cop has the upper hand with their offical power and far too many enjoy being able to make the smart guy jump on command...

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

        by IreGyre on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 03:32:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I live in this community (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darmok, Shockwave, Powell, JosephK74

    and this is such a heartbreaking case.  I think we need an overhaul of many things, including how police are trained to deal with a potentially dangerous situation.  Can they please allow more than 10 seconds before they make a decision that will take away the life of a suspect?  

    A 13 year old is dead; his family is devastated; and a police officer will have to live the rest of his life knowing he killed a teenager for the crime of carrying a BB gun down the street.  All horrific.

    I think toy gun manufacturers should be required to make them in only neon colors.

    I think police ought to be trained in how to diffuse a situation without first resorting to deadly violence.

    I think parents should stop buying their kids toy guns or guns of any kind, but if you must -- don't allow them to take them out of your own backyard.

    I can tell you that everyone I've spoken with about this shooting is sickened, and most are unhappy with the police response.  I bet if this incident had occurred in a more affluent neighborhood, the police would have given the youth more than 10 seconds to comply.  FBI are supposedly going to do an investigation, but it won't bring this child back to life.

  •  Current Policy Is To Give Cops a 007 License..... (4+ / 0-)

    ...to kill.

    They can always find or create some cover story to justify the killing.  They are skilled liars and the judges and prosecutors have to work with them.

    The only way to convict a cop for a bad killing would be if there were a number of video cameras covering it from different angles that caught the whole incident from its inception with full audio......otherwise they will find/create all manner of pretexts to justify the killing.

    The answer is for EVERYTHING a cop sees and hears while on duty to be 100% recorded.  The tech for that has been here for a long time and is only getting cheaper and better.

    Obviously the cops don't like this idea....and that is EXACTLY why it needs to be implemented over their objections.

    Good cops should WELCOME the evidence such a system would produce, eh?

  •  They told him to "stand down" (events) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IreGyre, Powell

    They were in their squad car and only said it twice. He didn't have a clue what this meant, and he was listening to an iPod and didn't probably hear it at first on top of not understanding the order to "stand down."

    They shot him about two seconds later.

    He fell to the grounds, screamed "Stop!" and the officer unloaded another six-seven bullets into him despite that he was essentially a barely pubescent child who had committed no crime, who had just walked happily through his neighborhood greeting several neighbors along the way, none of whom were nervous in the least.

    There were eyewitnesses to the murder. Several, in fact.

    The media has done a horrific job of this. They've done nothing but politicize what is nothing more than a gross act of injustice. I think the officer involved should be charged with murder. The same outcome would have happened if this had been someone deaf, elderly, or mentally disabled.

    I wouldn't know what to do myself if someone shouted, "Stand down" at me. Especially if my back was turned to them.

    If anyone doubts the veracity of what's happened, come to the giant march happening on tuesday (another on wednesday) in Santa Rosa, CA at noon. There are expected to be over 1,000 people right now, but since that's how many are reporting coming, I expect more. I'll take photos and briefly post. I attended the vigil and march the other night too. The protesters are about 50% middle-school and high school aged kids, incidentally. There are no big activists running the show here. There are language barrier issues, and there is a stronger sense of mistrust of police than in the Trayvon Martin incident since there have been other kids murdered in the area by police in recent memory. All were minorities.

    Today:

    Andy's memorial service will be at 2 pm till 9pm at Windsor 9660 old redwood highway tomorrow, today there will be a church for Andy at 6:30 at saint Eugene church everyone is welcomed.
    Tuesday March information:

    https://www.facebook.com/...

    12pm, meet at Santa Rosa Junior College OR Old Court House Square (easier if you don't know S. Rosa, but a longer march). From SRJC, wait for OCHSq. March to arrive. From OCHsq, march to SRJC. Then, unite and march to the Sheriff's Dept. For those who don't want to march, meet to protest at 3pm at the Sonoma County Sheriff's Dept. 300-304 Mendocino Ave., Santa Rosa, CA 95401
    This will be a peaceful protest. You may bring your children. If you plan to attend, let me know by p/m. I will be there.

    Wednesday march information:

    https://www.facebook.com/...

    (I cannot attend this due to work).

    Fuck the media's coverage on this. Word of mouth has been far, far more efficient for this story getting around properly.

    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

    by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 02:43:00 PM PDT

    •  Also, he was probably dead when they (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Knucklehead, Shockwave, Powell, sngmama

      handcuffed him. That was clear to eyewitnesses who said he died after he fell to the ground. Before they kept shooting Andy, a 13-year old boy who didn't have a mustache yet, but who was a popular kid at his middle school who enjoyed playing trumpet, and who dated one girl in sixth grade, a friend of his, but reportedly hadn't yet ever kissed a girl before. :(

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 02:45:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Is there a source to the i-pod? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shockwave, mahakali overdrive, Powell

      Do you have a source for the i-pod. I write about how police  procedure fails deaf people. I'd like to show how this lack of concern for response time for the deaf ALSO tracks to people with headphones.

      •  It looks like DaveyD commented on it (0+ / 0-)

        It was mentioned by eyewitnesses not in the media. So that's how I heard about it. I presume that DaveyD heard about it similarly since he wrote about it on his blog?

        https://twitter.com/...

        But I heard this separately from him. I presume, since he's in Oakland, he heard it from the same folks I did. There's plenty of cross-traffic chatter going on.

        http://hiphopandpolitics.com/...

        Additional details to this tragedy.. Andy Lopez was shot in an open field where local kids go to play and do target practice with BB guns. He also had headphones on.. He was shot as he was turning around and then shot several more times as he on the ground. Police handcuffed before giving him CPR..more details to come..
        Ah, okay, Google... Reuters... http://www.reuters.com/...

        Here, the police respond to Lopez' father Rodrigo's insinuation that he was listening to music (as I've heard), and the police say, "We don't know." Of course, they would know since obviously, they did CPR on a kid who either was, or was not, listening to an iPod.

        Andy's father, Rodrigo Lopez, said he believes his son may not have heard the deputies' orders.

        "I think he would have done what they told him," he said. "I know him, and he has respect for the law, for police."

        A police spokesman told the Santa Rosa Press Democrat newspaper that it remained unclear whether Andy, who enjoyed listening to music, was wearing ear buds at the time.

        Witnesses say yes, he was listening to music. Either way, he didn't likely know what "Stand Down" meant, and this is apparently the order given according to numerous witnesses. This all happened at a fairly busy time, I think on the corner of Moorland and Robles Road, S. Rosa, which is kind of like a country road on the periphery of a low-income, residential neighborhood filled with empty lots and people hanging out outside.

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 05:38:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Don't carry guns or things that look like guns (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Powell

    Someone is carrying what is indistinguishable from an assault rifle in public, the police ask them to drop it, they turn around (so they heard something) still holding it, arguably pointing it, and the police shoot. Had it been a real gun, another second could easily have resulted in the deaths of police officers.

    Are the people on this thread suggesting that we should be tolerant of people carrying assault rifles, on the chance that it might be a toy? To become inured to the sight of an assault rifle being carried casually down the street? I vote no on that. And if a teen, or any person of any age is carrying a gun or a fake gun, they need to know that the world may, and should, respond with violent emotion and maybe violence to that evident threat of massive violence. Is there some right to be threatening and scare people with the possibility of violent death? Is there any other reason to be carrying a toy assault rifle in public? Do you know how fast that ruins a neighborhood, to have anyone at all strolling along with an assault rifle, real or not? It is a really horrible thing that is profoundly frightening in real ways and cannot be tolerated in any community.

    Oh, are you saying he was thirteen and it was an accident that he was carrying it openly, and may not have meant to attract the police attention? Again, are you arguing that that is OK? That I should take the time to look carefully and inquire if a rifle is real? I actually do have a death wish, so that is a fine strategy for me. But generally, the police did what we would hope they would do to a person turning towards them with an assault rifle. It's super sad, but that is what the NRA wants, guns guns guns, so the police have to behave accordingly.

    This gun conversation has taken a weird turn. Defending the right of people to stroll about on public streets with assault rifles, or what appears to be assault rifles? And if they are not real guns, to miraculously have the right to not obey the police on a standard command, "Drop the gun"? Weird.

    FYI I live in the urban hard core and do not have nor want a gun. Kids and adults in this city die from them, lose loved ones, are sent to jail and lives are ruined daily by them. There is no upside.

    •  Do you think this 13-year old boy wanted (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shotput8, Shockwave, Powell

      to be shot?

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 03:25:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We can't simultaneously (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive

        call for all sorts of gun control, call for law enforcement to halt things like school shootings, and perpetually draw attention to gun violence and then be surprised when these things happen.  These toys should be off the street.  How is an officer to know whether it's a toy?  Given all the gun violence, how are we to expect officers to not respond in these situations?

        •  You, my friend, are lacking context (0+ / 0-)

          for what happened. The police are sending rather mixed messages about what they do, and do not, support. I say this with all due respect, since this is where I live, more or less, and since it has been a long-standing source of community frustration.

          But make no mistake about law enforcement's stance on this particular matter. Here, let me show you what the Sheriff of the County where Andy was killed was saying about REAL automatic weapons handled by children not very long ago at all. This was followed by officers in multiple cities nearby following suit, by the way.

          Read through my comment here along with the links to see why I have very little sympathy for Schwedhelm's current plight, and why I have much suspicion about this particular agency (although that goes back to 2000, when the California Commission for Civil Rights reported that the County was in severe violation of community standards, followed by the 2006 DOJ intervention after the shooting death of Jeremiah Chass, Richard DeSantis, and other unusual officer-involved fatalities, so here, here there is deep history, like there would be down in Maricopa County with Arpaio or something like that):

           http://www.dailykos.com/...

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 06:34:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Santa Rosa area police and Sheriff's stance on (0+ / 0-)

            kids and guns is clear as day, as shown in the links and such, this is what they, themselves, openly advocated for just a few years ago (like two or something; it's fresh in memory).

            This must have been a mile or less away from where Andy was shot.

            This, incidentally, is a REAL automatic gun. Their comments were quite defensive, stated this was fine, and are all on record in the link... and others freely available on Google.

            Hard to believe they were very concerned by a kid with a toy gun when they weren't concerned before about kids with real automatic weapons:

            To lend further context, this was after this: http://www.metroactive.com/...

            That resulted in this:

            http://www.mercurynews.com/...

            http://www.northbay.pressdemocrat.com/...

            You don't even want to know how many priors both Celli and Misita had. Plenty. Celli, public. Misita, not so much. The county has hidden this all away and defended itself.

            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

            by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 06:42:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Can you find a source to your claim that the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shockwave, Powell, mahakali overdrive

      police told him to "Drop the gun"?

      •  Here's what the report says (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shockwave, Powell, JosephK74

        I was gone from the thread all day, but I'm back now.

        The police pulled over, chirped the siren once, took shelter behind the car doors, and called to him (perhaps over a loudspeaker) to drop the gun. His back was to them and he turned to see what was happening. Then one of them shot him a lot. Total time elapsed was at most 10 seconds.

        That's what the record currently says. It may change as people investigate.

    •  And then you'll say "don't carry an Ipod because (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Powell, mahakali overdrive, jabney

      it might look like a handgun"
      And "don't wear raincoats or overcoats that may appear to be concealing a weapon"
      and "don't turn your back in the presence of a cop because he'll think you're secretly pulling a gun on him"
      and "wear only short underpants and minimal top covering and nothing  else so the cops see you have literally nothing on you at all"
      Great. So we just keep on restricting ourselves and letting  the cops get more threatening because THEY are out of control?
      Yes, and people saw Nazi thugs beating Jews and vandalizing their stores and said "Don't look, they'll beat you too" and that made 1930's Germany all better.

      Ash-sha'b yurid isqat an-nizam!

      by fourthcornerman on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 04:59:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you want to be a policeman, and carry a gun, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Powell, mahakali overdrive

      the you damn well better accept  the fact that you are in a job which demands that you risk your own life and not the lives of members of the public.

      Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

      by dadadata on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 05:06:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I see... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Powell

    one former Kossack who's been banned because of his very pro-gun stance says that the problem is that California doesn't allow open carry, so if we just simply got rid of our gun restrictions, then that would make all of us so much safer.

    :-|

  •  Cult of compliance is news to me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Powell

     photo Robocop_film_zps9c0689de.jpg

    It makes some sense to call it that.  I guess it is a way of saying that cops no longer have to be human beings, they can be robots programmed to execute instructions regardless of the circumstances.

    The problem they have is that they can now be replaced by machines.  OTOH, perhaps machines can be programmed to take into account circumstances.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 04:50:13 PM PDT

  •  I'm late to this thread, but this seems important; (0+ / 0-)

    Remember the several instances where tea-partiers and 2nd amendment types did things like hold rallies carrying REAL weapons, carried them into public places, were clearly grown men with actual weapons? Did cops draw on them, demand they drop the weapons? Did the cops shoot a whole bunch of them?

    Either it's OK for anyone to carry those things in public, or it's not. Why does a 13 year get shot, and a 40 year old with a gun at a farmers market not?

  •  Interesting premise about compliance. (0+ / 0-)

    And while I don't disagree with it, exactly, I feel that the underlying problem is the damned guns; not the Airsoft guns -- but the prevalence of real guns.

    IF there were not a very clear and present danger that any law enforcement officer could encounter an unstable adult or child in possession of a firearm every single day -- then cops would not have to be spring-loaded.

    If the possibility had been remote that this child's weapon was real, the police on the scene might have given him the crucial extra seconds he needed to comprehend the situation.

    In a case like this, yes -- they expect instant compliance, because the gun is very likely to be real.

    My kid and his friends loved these Airsoft weapons, but I recognized many years ago that the guns could never be played with except in a confined and closely adult-supervised setting BECAUSE THEY LOOK REAL.

    The little orange collar on the muzzle is the last thing you notice.

  •  Not blaming the police based on what I have read (0+ / 0-)

    This is tragic but if you are carrying a replica assault weapon and you point that weapon at the police, I think I would expect the police to shoot you. In this situation, had it been an actual assault weapon, the police officers would be hopelessly outgunned (see the bank shootout in LA some years ago as an example).

    I think the parents of this child have some accountability here. Letting your kid walk around with a replica assault weapon is highly irresponsible. Another sad result of the gun fetish culture. In this case, the "good guys" with guns took out the "bad guy" with the "gun".

    •  Hmmm (0+ / 0-)

      A child has a right to play with a toy.

      Police have the responsibility to verify a situation before they take a life.

      The slippery slope off your statement leads to terrible places. I'd recommend rethinking.

      •  As I said, this was tragic (0+ / 0-)

        However, walking around outside with a replica AK-47 brings with it some problems.

        I assure you that if you point a replica AK-47 at a police officer, you will get shot every time. I'd have a real hard time blaming the officer for doing so.

  •  Too many guns everywhere is the problem (0+ / 0-)

    It has made the police very jumpy with all the massacres going on. I blame the NRA and the huge number of guns in our country for this.



    Women create the entire labor force.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 06:44:40 PM PDT

  •  Is it wrong to wonder why anyone would have a (0+ / 0-)

    toy gun?  Especially a realistic-looking one?

    Armed! I feel like a savage! Barbarella

    by richardvjohnson on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 06:54:59 PM PDT

    •  It's not wrong (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      richardvjohnson

      But the answers are also not wrong.

      Our stories include violence and weapons. They always have (read Gilgamesh). They teach the consequences of violence and weapons, they teach norms, they teach fear, they teach heroism, they teach devotion to the state, they teach whatever it is they teach.

      When I was a boy, I played with fake guns. I had epic battles and adventures in my back yard.

      This was a boy. He lives in a world in which toy guns are cool. He had a fake pistol in his belt and a fake rifle and was playing a game of some sort.

      He has the right to do that.

      •  I was led to believe that enlightened parents (0+ / 0-)

        these days did not allow their children to have such things.  I'm especially sensitive on this issue because my father almost went to jail once for allegedly committing a robbery with my toy pistol (this is around 1950, I was at the trial but have no memory, I was 4).

        Armed! I feel like a savage! Barbarella

        by richardvjohnson on Tue Oct 29, 2013 at 04:06:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Specific info on SoCo Sheriff's Police Abuse (0+ / 0-)

    is available here: http://pachline.org

    There's a lot to sift through.

    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

    by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 07:00:31 PM PDT

  •  Breaking: New Witnesses Contradict PD's Claims (0+ / 0-)

    http://abclocal.go.com/...

    This just happened at Andy's memorial. Two new witnesses, neither of whom speak English, came forward. This is what they've been translated as saying. They have revealed their identities. This is four witnesses now who have made their identities public. All of them have contradicted the police stories.

    SANTA ROSA, Calif. (KGO) -- We're learning more in the ongoing investigation of a Sonoma County sheriff's deputy who shot and killed a 13-year old who was carrying a replica assault rifle.

    The collection of candles and balloons honoring Andy Lopez continues to grow and people continue to show up to pay their respects. Maria Marquez and Juana Rojas have attended the memorial every day since the shooting because they want to tell the boy's parents what they saw when he was killed.

    -cut-

    She says they were right behind the patrol car at a stop sign. Rojas saw the deputies turn on their police lights, then drive over to where the teenager was standing in an open lot.
    Rojas and Marquez say they heard the deputies yell in english "drop the gun."

    -cut-

    She says almost immediately, both deputies then opened their doors and shots were fired.

    Rojas and Marquez say deputies only yelled once before opening fire.

    -cut-

    She says they fired immediately and didn't give him a chance to do anything.

    continuing on, it states...
    But the description of events these women give is different than what investigators have described.

    "Both deputies exited their vehicles, but maintained cover behind their opened doors. One of the deputies shouted at the subject to put the gun down," Santa Rosa Police Department spokesperson Paul Henry said.

    These women say the deputies shouted first, then got out of their car and fired.

    Another witness we talked to earlier this week describes the same.

    "He pulled over to the kid walking side, and he just opened the door and shouted," Ismael Mondragon said.

    The fourth eyewitness to also contradict the Sheriff's story is Ethan Oliver, who has spoken publicly to KTVU.

    That's sounds like kind of an issue.

    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

    by mahakali overdrive on Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 07:19:51 PM PDT

  •  Easy, cops should not shoot first (0+ / 0-)

    That's not too much to ask, especially when they are showing up at non shooting events.  

    But just like people with fast cars want to drive fast, people with guns want to shoot them.

    (The kid's parents have to live with giving him a gun to "play" with as well.)

  •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

    You are going to make the cops out to be the bad guys in this? They see a "man" with a "semi automatic assault rifle"... now do you really think they should say please and thank you? You deem to stand as judge of two professionals who made a decision in a split second, without you having any of the on the spot facts? Given all the insane craziness in our society? Those guys have a very difficult job, and your condescension does nothing but stir the pot of hate against the police. You need to back off and give these guys a break... I assure you they will feel this guilt for the rest of their lives without your superior harping.

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