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The other shoe may have dropped--or at the very least, is starting to come down--in the Jonathan Martin affair.  This morning's (Fort Lauderdale) Sun-Sentinel has a story that indicates the Miami Dolphins have a culture that would be unacceptable (to put it extremely mildly) if this was a private-sector company rather than an NFL team.  It seems Richie Incognito made his now-infamous call to Martin back in April after his coaches on the Miami Dolphins asked Incognito to toughen Martin up.

Sources say that communication took place when Martin skipped two days of the team's OTA program, and Incognito was encouraged by his coaches to make a call that would "get him into the fold," one source said.

Even though OTA workouts are voluntary, the NFL culture forces coaches to strong arm the team's leaders to make sure everyone attends. Sources say Incognito was doing his job, but they admit he crossed the line.

Gee, ya think?

And it's not as if the Dolphins didn't know what Incognito's idea of "toughening up" would be.  TMZ obtained a video showing an obviously drunk Incognito ranting at a South Florida bar sometime this past summer.  Watch here.

Now none of us here are prudes by any stretch.  But would you want someone like that in a leadership position on any team?  I know if I were a father and someone like that were a captain on my son's football team, I'd be demanding that the coach remove him or else I wasn't letting my kid play.  

And yet, this is what passes for leadership on the Dolphins.  Remember, this guy was on the leadership council.  No wonder Martin didn't want to let his coaches know what was going on.

If there was a company with an environment like this in the private sector, we'd be up in arms.  This is no different.  I initially thought that general manager Jeff Ireland was as much to blame as Incognito.  This guy had a history of disturbing behavior as far back as college--and yet Ireland still lets him on the team despite obvious red flags from St. Louis and Buffalo.  But after this, head coach Joe Philbin needs to go as well--and go yesterday.

Originally posted to Christian Dem in NC on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 07:11 AM PST.

Also republished by Barriers and Bridges.

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Comment Preferences

  •  It's getting harder to stomach the NFL (46+ / 0-)

    I've been a bigtime fan since childhood, raised in a football watching household, but events like this make me really question how much I really should follow the NFL in the future.  The fact that the Dolphins staff trusted someone who, by past actions, is a bit of a sociopath to "toughen up" someone is really disgusting.  

    Worse, it's sad to see fans try to defend it and blame the victim, calling him a wimp or whatever.

    Honestly, if there's no real accountability for what happened in Miami, I do have to question if I really want to continue watching football.  I'd boycott a company that would allow a racist/abusive employee to continue...same standard should apply to the NFL.

  •  Philbin was so weak in his press conference 2 days (20+ / 0-)

    ago.  There seemed to be something strange or 'funny' about it, and I realized it was because Philbin was weak and hiding things.  He says all the platitudes but won't say what he knew or when, until the "investigation is complete". THAT'S a head coach??!!!??!!

    That organization smells....

    Please know I am not rude. I cannot rec anything from this browser. When I rec or post diaries I am a guest at some exotic locale's computer. Ayn is the bane!

    by Floyd Blue on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 07:18:13 AM PST

  •  incognito had a long record (23+ / 0-)

    of abhorrent behavior. if this is true, the entire dolphins staff needs to follow incognito out the door.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 07:28:25 AM PST

  •  "Voluntary" (33+ / 0-)

    I fucking HATE mandatory "voluntary" anything.  I've seen it in every work environment I've ever been in, and it drives me nuts.

    Either it's "required" or it's "voluntary".    Trying to force someone to do a voluntary event is just infuriating.

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 07:28:41 AM PST

  •  You have to understand the culture of football (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joe Bacon, mrblifil, SmallAxe, beav, taffers

    for this to make some sense to you. NFL football takes it to an even higher level, but it happens in college and high school football as well.  

    While Incognito's comments are disgusting, I don't buy the simple narrative portrayed in the media.  It seems like Martin didn't have the "temperament" for NFL football, and the Coaches and team leaders were trying to help him "find it".  I they went overboard because Martin's measurables suggested that he could be a good player when they should have just cut him and moved on if they thought he wasn't playing well.

    "Because I am a river to my people."

    by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 07:34:45 AM PST

    •  Perhaps the 'temperament' for NFL football (31+ / 0-)

      is simply a bad thing in and of itself.

      There are plenty of good players out there who aren't asses.  They shouldn't be indoctrinated into becoming asses by 'leadership' either.

      •  Nothing wrong with having a football "temperament" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SmallAxe, Subterranean

        "on the field" or "off the field" (a mild version).  It seems that you would consider  an offensive lineman that not only dominates his initial block, but "pancakes" his opponent, an "ass".  The essence of the game is to physically "bully" your opponent and win.

        The "ethics" of the game are counter-intuitive in a law abiding, non-violent world.  One reason the game is so compelling is that it literally "hurts to play it".  I've often argued that high school football is really a paramilitary exercise to prepare young men for military service.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:00:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't buy that for a minute. (18+ / 0-)

          Being physically overbearing, even knocking your opponent down on the field to prevent him from fulfilling his duties in the game has nothing to do with 'bullying' or a bullying mentality.  Best friends can easily play against each other, each trying to do their best to physically overpower each other, without a hint of bullying arising.

          •  As an offensive lineman you don't simply want to (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SmallAxe, no puma
            Being physically overbearing, even knocking your opponent down on the field to prevent him from fulfilling his duties in the game
            You want to demoralize your opponent and make him quit.  You want convince him that he has no chance of winning, and today will be a long and unfruitful day.  The stakes are high in these contests and winning matters.

            "Because I am a river to my people."

            by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:39:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah but even that doesn't call (15+ / 0-)

              for being a racist asshole. On or off the field.

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:53:30 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •   I acknowledged that Incognito's comments (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SmallAxe, beav, MugWumpBlues

                were disgusting in my original comment.  I was simply trying to provide some context to the diarists report on the Dolphins "toughening up" Jonathan Martin.

                "Because I am a river to my people."

                by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:05:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  With ya Lordcopper former lineman myself n/t (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lordcopper

                  When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                  by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:10:39 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks SmallAxe (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SmallAxe, beav

                    I guess it's difficult for those who didn't play the game to understand how combative the game is, and how miserable you can feel when you're hurt and exhausted but have to make another play.  At the same time, people find it difficult to understand the benefits received by forging relationships under such stressful conditions.  There is beauty in the simplicity of it.

                    "Because I am a river to my people."

                    by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:17:08 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  E Pluribus Unum is the football credo (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      beav, lordcopper

                      And forging that unity is a big part of it. You and I both know how crazy the forging can be but I get how others especially non-players have difficulty grokking it.  I would recommend the movie Remember the Titans as a great example of the locker room E. Pluribus Unum forging path especially concerning the racism angle.

                      When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                      by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:23:10 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  You see it wasn't meant in a racist way as in (0+ / 0-)

                he actually believes those things about him. It was intended to rile up Martin and get his head in the game and light a fire (probably knowing he's passive).

                Its Season. Its Real. LETS GO KICK SOME ASS. Was the intentions, bad execution.

                Tweetivism -- Tweet all members of the Senate on twitter at once, with one easy form. Push HCR, thats the current topic!

                by no puma on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:32:35 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It was racist bullying (18+ / 0-)
                  "Hey, wassup, you half n*** piece of s**. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s* in your f** mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f** mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F** you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."
                  This is a giant racist bully.  And the Dolphins liked his racism and his bullying.  To me, that's the end of the story.
                •  competitive spors (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SmallAxe, lunachickie, murrayewv

                  Yeah  I agree.  I played contact sports and stuff gets said.  Momma's daddies, threats, insults, whatever the nastiest thing people can think to say.  

                  Knowing all that from personal experience, I was still horrified by the comments made to Martin.  But I have an entirely different opinion if the coaching staff told him to toughen up Martin.  Then I put 90% of the blame on the staff.    If they were having questions about whether Martin was tough enough, should have just cut him or put him through extra drills and see if he quits.

                   Tony Dungy had some insightful comments about hazing and this incident

                  “Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects.” ― Will Rogers (Of course this also applies to me.)

                  by MugWumpBlues on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:21:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Exactly! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    murrayewv

                    Isn't that what coaches are supposed to do anyway? WTF would you set a player loose on another player like that and encourage that kind of abuse?

                    Culture or not, there's a line, and the Fins crossed it with this bozo.

                    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                    by lunachickie on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 12:38:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  You want to do that while you're on the field - (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miggles, Eyesbright

              but not once you get off the field.  Every single sport, and most jobs, have that exact same goal and desire.  And when people walk off the tennis court or out of the courtroom, the vast majority revert to being pleasant and courteous to one another.  Your rational simply shows how willing people are to justify bad behavior when they're afraid something they want might be indangered by it.

              •  Tennis and football are comparable now? (0+ / 0-)

                Played both, you wanna explain to everyone how a tennis locker room environment compares to a football one? Or how an individual game compares to a team sport? That might be helpful for starters.

                When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:51:30 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's the whole (0+ / 0-)

                  point - it's way past time for the culture of football to change.  Quit acceptable the unacceptable simply because it involves football.

                  •  to me you can't compare the two Apples/Oranges (0+ / 0-)

                    It's a poor analogy. Tennis has nowhere near the locker room or team concept involved in Football. Compare it to Soccer, Basketball, Baseball or any number of other team sports IMO and you have a better argument. Tennis not so much.  Please don't infer from that statement that I'm belittling tennis because I enjoy tennis myself, just think you're comparing apples and oranges and not accounting for the different environment in either of them.

                    When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                    by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 01:36:20 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Pardon me while I use a term I like to call.... (38+ / 0-)

      bullcrap.  "Understand the culture of football" yeah I've heard this garbage before in my youth and it always comes down to defending deplorable behavior from sports people because "that's just the culture".

      I have an idea..how about we change the culture? How about we reward ways of uniting a team that don't involve being an ass and acting like freaking Gaston on steroids.

      What Incognito did was unacceptable. Period.  We cannot continue to excuse the rotten behavior of sports stars just because "it's the culture".

      You what else was "the culture" at one time? The Negro League.

      “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

      by bayushisan on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 07:50:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree, and I think you're conflating more (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SmallAxe, DoobyOne

        than a few issues, mostly out of ignorance, but you're entitled to your opinion.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:06:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't (21+ / 0-)

          and you're being pretty rude, dude. The "ignorance" remark was completely unnecessary.

          There is a culture of football, but what you describe doesn't excuse any of this.

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:54:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ignorance simply means that a person may be (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SmallAxe, beav, DoobyOne

            unaware, dude.  There's no shame in being unaware of the particulars of an obscure subculture.   What I find rude is o denigrate a person when you disagree with their ideas, rather than having a respectful discussion.

            "Because I am a river to my people."

            by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:02:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And it could have been said just like this (9+ / 0-)
              unaware of the particulars

              Don't spin away from the idea that the word "ignorant" often has insulting overtones. Because that would be disingenuous.

              Sort of like the NFL is sure to be--I can't wait to see how they spin this racist asshole after this all plays out some more.

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:21:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  And you would have responded with a respectful (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DoobyOne

                discussion?  Really?

                "Because I am a river to my people."

                by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:28:21 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Have you seen what his black teammates say? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DoobyOne

                Google Mike Wallace and his other black teammates have said recently about the situation. Understand that you may not exactly have a clear unadulterated view on this situation.

                When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:32:12 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not until I looked up Wallace's (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BlackSheep1, caryltoo, mkor7, burlydee

                  comments. It now seems perhaps a bit more understandable that the Steelers cut Mike Wallace loose, despite his being one of their better receivers. Dude has bad taste in people.

                  My view of this is clear,

                  This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                  by lunachickie on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:46:07 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Take a look at Chris Carter and Garcon's comments (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    taffers

                    Today as another example. Again not saying I condone it but this is the culture and has been for a long time. Understand you may not get it.

                    When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                    by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:52:48 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So what needs to happen, SmallAxe? Sanction (0+ / 0-)

                      all the vets who abuse the rookies?

                      Or disband the damn league?

                      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                      by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:57:15 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Not sure Blacksheep1 just not as cut and dry (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        dougymi

                        As you are making it out to be sorry. Sanctions sure for Incognito, that's already started. Probably a lot of the Miami staff too. New rules publicly stated on hazing by the NFL probably good too. You're throwing out the baby with the bath water IMO.

                        When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                        by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:04:24 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Sorry, I don't see it that way: Coaches and staff (7+ / 0-)

                          have an obligation to abide by / enforce rules of the league and the game (Bill Belicheck notwithstanding).

                          Incognito's the current hi-profile example of an NFL problem child.
                          But IIRC during the off/early season we had 2, maybe 3, suicides of NFL / former NFL players and at least one murder-suicide by an NFL "star". There's also the New England Patriots' former hi-profile TE, Hernandez.

                          Something stinks in Denmark. If Richie Incognito is the answer, the question must be many kinds of wrong.

                          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                          by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:12:43 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Understand (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      taffers, gustynpip, Cassandra Waites

                      that I get it perfectly about "the culture". And what that means is that the NFL now has a seriously large perception problem. Between this and learning the league is fucking tax-exempt? Big turnoff to a nice, diverse cross-section of the fan base.

                      They say bad shit happens in threes. What's up next for this idiotic "professional sports league"? One can only shake their head and wonder.

                      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                      by lunachickie on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:03:41 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  This is the HUGE take away from this incident... (6+ / 0-)

                        Between the physical and mental health issues already being discussed, now the NFL has to manage the "culture issue".  All of the negative news about the violence these players commit.  The murder stories; the abuse of spouses stories; the suicide stories; etc...  

                        You can already see it at the youth levels--parents not allowing kids to play football--now parents have another reason to keep their kids out of this sport.  Football will go the way of boxing soon.  Where only those economically struggling and looking for a way out will participate.  Football is not a sport that can usually be picked up later in life.  Kids need to play from an early age.  Parents who are concerned about their childrens health and environment are simply going to ban football and push them into other less violent sports.  Maybe baseball will make a come back...

                        •  Here's hoping. If football went the way of (4+ / 0-)

                          boxing, think of all the kids who could avoid brain injuries during the years their brains are developing.  Not to mention all the now wasted Sundays I'd get back.

                          •  Ha--agree with the wasted sundays. It is sad. I (0+ / 0-)

                            have always loved football (Go Bucks and Browns), but as these things continue to pile up I find myself watching a big hit and wondering if that's the one that will leave this guy a mess later in life.  Try as they might, there is no way to eliminate 300 pound men, in armor, with the ability to run 4.4 sec 40's, from utterly destroying another human.  I often wonder how they make it through a game, much less 10 seasons.  And I guess that is part of this.  What type of man and what type of personality does it take to succeed at this sport.  How do they turn it on and off?  Sadly, some can't.  It is such a violent sport, but god forgive me, I still love it.  And am amazed by how tough and great the men that play it are.

                  •  Doesn't matter what the coaches wanted: what (9+ / 0-)

                    Incognito delivered is disgusting filth.

                    End of statement.

                    Now, how the NFL responds is important here.

                    What's the right thing to do?

                    Sanction the coaching staff, one and all -- this is a lot worse, IMNVHO, than what cost Sean Payton a year's suspension in NOLa. I would not find it unreasonable to force Miami's hand on firings. En Masse. Either they're complicit in attempting to psychically assault a player, or they're too stupid to see it happening right before their eyes; neither trait is good in a "leadership" position.

                    Incognito's career should be over, and Wallace's season should be too.

                    LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                    by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:56:24 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Wallace isn't that good (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lunachickie, Deep Texan, Hey338Too

                    and the steelers knew someone would overpay for him.  He's a deep threat receiver, but he only works well with a QB with a big arm and a line that gives him time to get open.  He doesn't do short or underneath stuff.  The only WR worth building a team around is Megatron, since he does everything.  Wallace is just another guy with speed.

                    He also made some asshole anti-gay comments, too.

                    Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                    by Loge on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:57:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LeftOverAmerica
                      He also made some asshole anti-gay comments, too.
                      Once you piss off the front office with stuff like that, the Pittsburgh Steelers don't mess around--your ass is gone.  We'd heard rumblings that his, um, attitudes were, shall we say, not conducive to the Team Player Spirit that the Rooneys at least try to cultivate. But like any other gazillion-dollar business, a lot of people "looked the other way" or tried to spin it as "a one-time lapse of character", back when Wallace was good (and he had a couple of really good seasons with Big Arm Ben).
                       

                      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                      by lunachickie on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:11:16 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i thought they were after he was cut, though. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lunachickie

                        i mean, i wish i believed the Steelers tried to create this culture, because I respect the Rooneys for their efforts for minority hiring and Obama made Dan ambassador to Ireland, but this is a team that stood by Rapistburger.  Pittsburgh's a small town, really, and all of the stories about him are being an entitled jackass.  He sucks too now.

                        I hate to say it, but some people can be accepting of gays but total problems otherwise, and vice versa, in the case of Torii Hunter.

                        Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                        by Loge on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 12:13:23 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  They do (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Loge, LeftOverAmerica

                          Make no mistake--I am in no way defending rape culture because of money or prestige, I'm just telling you what I know cuz I'm a native and I talk to family/friends in the 'burgh a lot.

                          My understanding of the incident was that both Ben and Ms Hunter were less than truthful about key details. Regardless, the ONLY reason the Rooney's gave him one more chance--and believe me when I say that was his last--was because the team blew a shitload of money on him as a franchise QB and Pittsburgh is a small market and they didn't have a decent backup. But they were very clear--fuck up again and you're gone, we don't care how much it costs us.

                          The guy settled his ass right down, got married and all seems well. I say "seems" because this is all hearsay, but today, he's got a wife and kid and it is said that incident woke his dumb ass up long enough to get his shit together and grow up.

                          I certainly hope so. I have not heard much to the contrary since, though with the team stinking up the joint this year, who's to say adversity might not make him slip back into any "old habits" which may have been overlooked? Most leopards don't change their spots that easily, so time will tell.  
                           

                          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                          by lunachickie on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 12:30:49 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

            •  You are indeed being a patronizing prick. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miggles, Eyesbright, lunachickie

              You have absolutely no idea of the level of lunachickie's knowledge unless you happen to personally know him or her.  You're excusing and trying to justify incredible horrible behavior, and trying to dismiss the opinion of anyone who doesn't agree with you by setting yourself up as the only one who has an inside track into how it all works and what's needed.  You're so obviously indoctrinated into the entire culture, you're one of the last people who can give an unbiased opinion.  

              If you want to argue with someone about an issues, please at least have the maturity and ability to argue it, not to try to dismiss them as not having sufficient standing to hold an opinion.

        •  Right... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gustynpip, Deep Texan

          Because I never saw the ramifications of treating a guy who could catch a ball like he was a god when I was in high school or anything; and I certainly never saw the football players act like they were God's gift to the world and behave like they could do whatever they wanted, to whoever they wanted with impunity (because they could).

          See I may not watch sports, but I do pay attention to how people act and how certain types of hard core fans react to their "idols".

          What I've noticed is this. Sports stars, and Football players in particular, get a free pass on their behavior no matter how vile or despicable it is. The hard core fans circle the wagons no matter the charge and defend their guy even when they're charged with rape, domestic abuse or animal cruelty (Michael Vick I'm looking in your direction).  In almost every case we hear the same tired excuse "it's part of the culture" so yeah I think I DO understand it pretty well from an observational stand point by now.

          These guys are paid millions of dollars and are treated like gods because they have some physical abilities that a lot of men don't  You know who else has a lot of physical abilities that a lot of people don't and I think are much more deserving of respect than a guy who can catch a ball? The men and women of the military.  You know people who actually do something important and many times get the shaft from the government that's supposed to be looking out for them.

          Oh, but I guess I'm just "ignorant" of sssoooo many things. Pray tell what am I missing?

          “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

          by bayushisan on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 12:07:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Eliminating behavior? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SmallAxe

        Sports are a special place where special rules apply.  And it is purely voluntary if you want to go there.  The NFL is a really, really tough place.  Its like being in a boxing ring.  You can get beat up or hurt really badly in there.

        Seems to me inappropriate to assess the NFL--or any competitive sports-- the same way you assess the rest of society.   That would be terribly unfair to the players.  Male dominance, competition, winning.  Many people love that.

        The move North Dallas Forty had some good stuff on it and how some evil staffers manipulate the players.  You hope you get a coach that is fair an honest (like Tony Dungy seems to be) but sometimes you get real schmucks.

        “Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects.” ― Will Rogers (Of course this also applies to me.)

        by MugWumpBlues on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:31:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  um, shouldn't be the case (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          white blitz, Miggles, gustynpip
          Sports are a special place where special rules apply.
          If we have to code this into law, then we should. They have no right to special rules.

          -You want to change the system, run for office.

          by Deep Texan on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:37:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Purely voluntary if you want to go there. So (6+ / 0-)

          racism, sexism, homophobia are all okay as long as they're practiced where people can choose to stay away?  Football is the dream out of poverty for many of the people who "choose" to endure this kind of treatment.

          Factories used to be horrendous places for women to work - they got to see the girlie calendars on the walls, listen to the jokes about their bodies, be groped.  And the excuse that it was just the "culture" of the places was pulled out for that one, too.  And the assurance that if women didn't like that kind of treatment, they could always leave it.

          I'm just amazed at the ability to condone, justify, and excuse horrendous behavior.  There should be NO "special place where special rules apply.  Bullying, racism homophobia, etc. whould be considered unacceptable Everywhere.

      •  The circle has been closed! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gustynpip

        Gaston LeGume from Beauty and the Beast was inspired by high-school/college/football jock stereotypes.

        Now the asshole jocks like Incognito are inspired by Gaston.

    •  Your narrative is just as simple (11+ / 0-)

      And quite insulting. After all, if Incognito felt comfortable blatantly using the n-word to a black teammate, what kind of environment do you think that team has? Do you think that was the first time a white man on that team called him that? Maybe Martin was just uncomfortable because he felt the environment as a whole was racist as shit, and it was stressing him out, thereby effecting his temperament.

      Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

      by moviemeister76 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:21:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Read the latest reportage on this story. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DoobyOne, SmallAxe

        Allegedly they engaged in the use of racial slurs as some kind of "brotherhood bonding" in the locker room.  While I agree that this wouldn't work for me, it brings into question the validity of your comment.  

        BTW, I live in SOFL so we are inundated with the story.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:33:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't pay too much attention to NFL anymore (8+ / 0-)

          Ever since I found out about all the concussions so many players have gotten and died from, I began to lose interest in watching football.

          I had not heard that they were literally doing it openly in the locker room. Jesus. However, just because I did not know that does not invalidate my comment. In fact, it reinforces it. Perhaps the rookie felt it was bullshit that white men could call him that, but he was too scared to say anything. That would have caused him enormous emotional stress. The fact that you actually knew the white players were openly doing this but still felt the problem is with Martin kinda blows my mind.

          Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

          by moviemeister76 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:41:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And i think that is lordcoppers point; that this (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SmallAxe

            "blows your mind".  Whether we approve or not, an NFL locker room has a different set of mores than "a normal work place".  No one seems to be condoning what happened; only that we need to understand the culture prior to condemning.  As crazy as it sounds, Martin will have a harder time finding work in the NFL than Incognito.  Players take "keep what happens in the locker room, in the locker room", very seriously.  Martin will not be trusted, if the statements being made by both active and former players, are true.

            •  taffers: an NFL locker room OUGHT to be a place (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Deep Texan, Eyesbright

              where meritocracy works.

              Clearly the Dolphins', at the very least, is not. How far across the League does this rot go?

              LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:58:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well--from the silence or actual defending of (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SmallAxe

                Incognito, I'd say it reaches very far across this league.  Again, this is not a normal work place that I'm used too.  It has its own culture, created and policed by its players (unionized, by the way).  While we may view it as unacceptable, that is where they are at.  I've often read here, after someone does something horrible, that we should understand where they are coming from/why they acted the way they did.  To not understand, I've been told, is to not be able to fix.  I think that those who are saying this is part of the NFL culture, are trying to shed some light on the situation.  They shouldn't be attacked for "blaming the victim".

                •  No, just no. This culture was NOT created by (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  moviemeister76

                  the players.  It's been created by years of accepting the unacceptable, of coaches and fans accepting this kind of behavior, of excusing and looking the other way, simply because it involved sports heroes.  The players have no choice in the matter, at all, except that of not participating at all.  Which is not a real choice, is it?  Some of them relish it; others put up with it only because those who relish it are permitted to continue it.  Look what happens to someone who does actually try to stand up for himself against it.  He's treated by many as the problem, rather than the racist bully being treated as the problem.  

                  Everyone knows what the culture of the NFL is - and that's what we're complaining about.  You don't have to shed light on the situation.  We already know, and we don't like it.  

              •  You're a service member you should get this... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                taffers

                And a Texan to boot... Amazing you don't see what we're bringing up as mitigating factors on the culture inherent within.

                When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:09:03 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You don't get it, do you? (8+ / 0-)

                  Bullying is not a cultural value we should be defending.

                  And yes, I have walked the halls of the Alamo, as they stood in 1976 and as they stand today.

                  The NFL is not going forward.

                  I remember Harvey Martin.
                  I remember Edd Jones.

                  And I remember Tom Landry weathering the storm after he benched Hollywood Henderson.

                  Tell me the league and game are better now than then.

                  LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                  by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:15:46 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Still not getting it not defending bullying (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    taffers

                    Just painting the full picture. BTW Hollywood Henderson has a horseshoe up his ass and has also written one of the best autobiographies out there on that time period.  Confessions of an NFL Casualty... It's a classic highly recommend and I hate the Cowboys lol.  One of my faves from it is when Landry asks him in a meeting why he's always wearing sunglasses. Hollywood says "coach when you're cool the sun is always shining".... But I digress.

                    When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                    by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:27:39 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  yes you are (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      burlydee, gustynpip
                      not defending bullying

                      -You want to change the system, run for office.

                      by Deep Texan on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:38:55 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, big hero, Hollywood Henderson. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      a2nite

                      From Wiki's bio:

                      After graduation Henderson joined the Air Force, but quit before being sworn in.
                      then in '79 his druggiedom caught up with the whole team:
                      Henderson's destructive lifestyle of drugs and alcohol began to catch up with him. During many games, he snorted liquid cocaine from an inhaler he hid in his pants. [5] The final straw came in 1979 against the Washington Redskins at RFK Stadium. While his team was being soundly beaten 34–20 on national television, Henderson mugged for the camera and displayed handkerchiefs with the Cowboys team logo. When interviewed about it, he blamed teammate Preston Pearson, saying that Pearson had asked him to show off the handkerchiefs, which Pearson was marketing, as a favor. Coach Tom Landry was so angered by the episode that he deactivated Henderson for the remaining four games of the season and later waived him. "Landry had given me plenty of warning," Henderson admits.
                      I wish him well in his continued sobriety, but he made choices that were detrimental to the team (sound familiar?) -- and to his own future.
                      Henderson says crack cocaine was his downfall, and that embarrassing his mama, family and friends ultimately changed him. He is now retired and lectures across America to help others.[8] On November 8, 2013 Henderson will celebrate 30 years clean and sober.

                      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                      by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:39:22 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Did I say he was a hero? Dude pump the brakes (0+ / 0-)

                        I said he wrote a great bio and has a horseshoe up his ass, you read "hero" somewhere in that... Jeebus sometimes this internet thing is tough on everyone.

                        When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                        by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:46:39 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  'scuse me: what I read was that (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          SmallAxe

                          Henderson is what more of is needed.
                          Not so, say I.

                          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                          by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:51:24 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Nah, was just pointing out I liked his book (0+ / 0-)

                            Sorry figured you might enjoy it too was off topic and wasn't condoning him. Just adding a little flavor on Hollywood. Shoot me.

                            When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                            by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 11:09:38 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  see, we're different (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            a2nite

                            Henderson won a pretty good-sized Lotto a few years back, IIRC.

                            Once, the Cowboys' backfield held three Heisman winners at the same time ...

                            so yep, I'm more into performance than perception. Shoot me.

                            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                            by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 11:34:16 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Lottery = horseshoe up his ass comment (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            BlackSheep1

                            Seriously we're not reading each other right here bud. I meant no offense in anything I was saying. Really is kind of disheartening getting so much confusion in return for trying to contribute to a discussion.

                            When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis on the money in 1935

                            by SmallAxe on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 12:21:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  I just can't (5+ / 0-)

              I seriously can't take this nonsense. Apparently, it's 100% A-OK for football players to be racist as shit. Never mind the fact that TREMENDOUS pressure would have been put on every single black rookie to just go along with it.

              Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

              by moviemeister76 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:02:32 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Same argument used for permitting antiwomen (5+ / 0-)

              stuff going on in all sorts of workplaces in the past.  It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now.  The answer to this is not to excuse it and justify it, but to change it.  The fact that women now get to work in places that don't have girlie calendars hanging on the wall and don't have to be subjected to being groped in factories anymore proves it CAN be done, if people refuse to accept it.  

            •  Then Incognito should have left it in the locker (0+ / 0-)

              room instead of on Martin's answering machine.

              •  No. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, white blitz

                He should have left it in his head and not said it in the first place. That would have been the better option by far, and if his coach was the one demanding he say this crap then he should have said something publicly about it and name shamed the idiots.

                “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

                by bayushisan on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 01:36:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Ok, now we're back to understanding the culture of (0+ / 0-)

            football.

            Perhaps the rookie felt it was bullshit that white men could call him that, but he was too scared to say anything. That would have caused him enormous emotional stress. The fact that you actually knew the white players were openly doing this but still felt the problem is with Martin kinda blows my mind.
            However, it's hard for a few new people to come into any institution and change the culture, especially when they aren't considered exceptional.

            "Because I am a river to my people."

            by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:48:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  This is awesome (4+ / 0-)

              You think I just don't understand the culture? Seriously? I'm fucking white, of course I understand the culture. It's MY culture. What I understand is that the entire NFL system is designed to use and abuse men of color, but expects them to give proper deference to white supremacy. You sound no different than white Southerners who protest that Northerners just don't get "their culture" whenever they wave the Confederate flag.

              Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

              by moviemeister76 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:04:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  it works with some guys, not others (10+ / 0-)

          "bring into the fold" isn't the same as "break down."  

          "Hey man, missed you at OTA's.  We gotta have you there, get on the same page, with a lot of new pieces coming in and Tannehill taking on a bigger playbook this year.  Every team in our division has a sick defense, so it's on us this year.  You staying in shape otherwise?  Remember, you're a vet now and gotta set a good example for the rooks."

          Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

          by Loge on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:00:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  OR maybe it was accepted by everyone because (0+ / 0-)

        they do have a good environment where everyone knows the other is kidding and doesn't mean it that way.

        Willing to bet the other guys would joke and call Incognito a stupid cracker also.

        Not excusing the behavior, but, it's not end of the world type stuff its being made to be.

        Tweetivism -- Tweet all members of the Senate on twitter at once, with one easy form. Push HCR, thats the current topic!

        by no puma on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:35:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Holy. Shit. (7+ / 0-)

          Are you kidding me? In what world is a rookie, black or not, going to have the confidence to stand up to his teammates and tell them that he sure as hell isn't comfortable with it?

          Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

          by moviemeister76 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:44:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Martin is now in his 2nd year--no longer a rookie. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            white blitz

            And he has started every game since being drafted.  If he never complained and showed up for work every day, how would anyone know what he was or wasn't comfortable with.

            •  Well for one... (5+ / 0-)

              ...I would say black folks are pretty damn used to being exposed to racist bullshit on a daily and still getting up and going to work every damn day. That doesn't negate the emotional stress. There's a reason black males die of heart attacks at a much younger age than any other race in this country.

              Which is precisely why this locker room nonsense should have never been started in the first place.

              Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

              by moviemeister76 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:59:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not started in the first place is correct--but it (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SmallAxe

                did start; a long time ago.  In order for it to change, one first needs to understand it.  To pretend that we know what it is like in that locker room is unfair.

                •  No, one doesn't need to understand it first. One (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Eyesbright, white blitz

                  needs to refuse to accept it.  Period.

                  •  And yet if I picked a different topic, say "Why (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SmallAxe

                    would anyone join a gang and break the law", and only attack the lawbreaker, I would being doing a disservice to the subject.  It is important to understand why Incognito felt safe saying and doing the things he did.  His environment and culture are critical in understanding his actions.  This doesn't mean we accept his actions, but that we understand.  How can anything change if we simply condemn but don't understand the underlying motivations.  What will be learned or changed?  So make this a simple argument about a racist jerk if you want.  However, little will be accomplished or corrected if nothing else changes.

                    •  So do you believe it's necessary to understand why (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Deep Texan

                      men rape?  Or why they choose to be sexist as long as they were permitted to be?  

                      Sorry, the only thing you need to understand here is that the culture of football is to accept unacceptable behavior and that as long as we accept that, it will continue.

                      No one here is attacking "only the lawbreaker".  Most every post . except those offering justification of Incognito,  emphasize that the coaches, etc. as well as the NFL  deserve a lot of criticism for this incident.  

                      This idea that racist need to be "understood" is simply bizarre.  

                      •  Actually, wouldn't it be important to understand (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        SmallAxe

                        why men rape?  Or why anyone breaks with the law or social contract most people have with one another?  Understanding is different from defending or accepting.  And while you and I believe he is a racist, the black players who know him much better than us seem to disagree.  That you seem to completely ignore the environment Incognito has been raised in and ignore what former and active players are saying, and ignore what many of his own teammates are saying tells me a lot about how you think.  

                        Stop conflating understanding with accepting or agreeing.  It's not fair to the argument.  The NFL has a culture problem--its been there for a long time--we're just hearing about this one incident.  Wouldn't more be learned and corrected if one digs down to where the source of the issues lie?

                        •  No, I really don't think it's important to (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Deep Texan

                          understand why men rape.  Understanding them is not going to stop them.  The only thing that will even slow them down is society refusing to accept any excuse for what they do and have serious consequences when they do.  Same thing with racism and bullying.  Why someone chooses to behave in that way is their own personal issue.  How society to chooses to deal with that behavior is society's issue.  We need to hold a firm line that such behavior is unacceptable, no excuses accepted, and maintain consequences for that behavior.  That is the only thing that will have any impact.

                          Understanding bad behavior is seldom necessary or beneficial.  There are exceptions, but generally the best way to deal with it is to refuse to accept it and have consequences for it.  

                          Social scientists can do their best to understand seriel killers, rapists, etc., and I have no objection to their doing so.  However, it's not necessary for that understanding to be complete for society to refuse to accept it.

                          •  We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. (0+ / 0-)

                            There are reasons for things like diversity programs, drug and alcohol programs, etc...If people can be shown why behavior is wrong and why they think or act like they do, then hopefully they can improve.  If the United States, in the days after 9-11, I was told there were reasons why these men killed over 3000 innocent people.  I was told that if we (the US) didn't try to understand why these men attacked and why others celebrated, then nothing would change.  I was told our actions may need to be looked at or changed as well as those who attacked.  Perhaps, if people in charge of the NFL take a look at the type of culture and mentalities people feel are necessary to play this game, things can change.  I highly doubt anyone in the NFL encourages or promotes racism. I would bet most know how horribly wrong it is.  However, they may need to change what is acceptable in a locker room. Those types of understanding and actions will help.  Or we can just scream--you are all a bunch of animals; go to hell.  

                          •  You're presenting this as an either/or (0+ / 0-)

                            issue, conflating different issues, and making incorrect assumptions, thereby reaching a bizarre conclusion.

                            First, treatment programs are notoriously unsuccessful, so their existence is hardly evidence of anything.  In most cases, people know why their behavior is wrong, but are unable or unwilling to change it.  Second, those programs exist only for certain problems - ones that people want to change, but are unable to do themselves - and work only if the individual is highly motivated.

                            Second, trying to understand why portions of the world hate this country does not require us to also judge the perpetrators of 9/11 as evildoers.  I would not for a second excuse or attempt to justify the individuals involved in that.  Trying to understand what this country has done to be so hated by so many is a totally different issue than is condemning those who participated in that horror.  

                            Third, understanding is beneficial only if there is some actual reason, other than just that someone chooses to be an asshole.  If I'm done something to someone that causes them to be an asshole, it's important I understand that so that I can acknowledge my part in it and change my behavior.  However, understanding seriel killers, rapists, racists, mysoginists, etc. will not improve anything, because there is no specific reason which can be improved.

                            Fourth, trying to understand why someone has done something and condemning them for doing it is not mutually exclusive.

                            Fifth, to assume that no one the NFL condones or promotes racism is incredibly naive.  Racists promote and condone racism.  If you honestly believe there are no racists in the NFL, I don't know what to say.  Except that you're living in a fantasy bubble.  

                          •  Well, again today, we have Incognito's ENTIRE (0+ / 0-)

                            team, black and white, old and young supporting Incognito.  You say this is about bad individuals doing bad things.  That there is nothing to be learned here.  That this isn't an institutionalized cultural problem within an NFL locker room.  I disagree.  You can say it's peer pressure or whatever that causes ALL of this team to support Incognito.  But, I would argue that any one person who defended Martin would be embraced by the media and be considered a hero.  if one person supported Incognito, everyone would say, "there's the truth".  Right now, every one is saying ALL these players are simply brainwashed.  Not trying to understand why something like this was able to go on for 2 years; not trying to understand why an entire team supports the "bully" verses the victim; not trying to understand how different a sports teams mores are verses the rest of society, just seems to be a waste of a teaching, learnable moment. Understanding what motivates men to act like this at an elite level, may help prevent it from occurring at a high school level.  But, why waste our time learning anything--we have people to condemn.

                          •  Oh my gosh. You need to learn some history. (0+ / 0-)

                            Do you have any idea of how difficult it was for the first women who came forward and complained about the horrible conditions women used to work in?  She, like Martin, was ALONE.  The rest of the women didn't jump forward and support her.  They rallied round the powers that be.  That was their safety.  They didn't want to be subjected to the treatment that woman was subjected to and the only way to avoid it was to act supportive of those who were abusing them, but at a lesser level than they'd be abused if they supported the complainer.

                            It's why bullies are constantly allowed to bully.  Others don't want to become one of their victims, so instead they join forces with the bully.

                            I can't figure out whether you're actually so optimistic that you accept such simplistic answers or whether you're such a football fan that you refuse to accept there could be a serious problem involving it.  But you seem to have left your critical thinking far behind.

                          •  And BTW, I never said this was only about (0+ / 0-)

                            individuals doing bad things and not about an institutional problem.  Once again, you're presenting it as an either/or.  It's both.  It's about an institutional problem that enabled an individual to behave badly without fear of consequences.  The way to end the institutional problem is to make it totally unacceptable for individuals to behave badly in this way, where they know there will be serious consequences for such behavior.

          •  alternatively he could have the confidence (0+ / 0-)

            to accept its not directed at him in a negative way.

            Tweetivism -- Tweet all members of the Senate on twitter at once, with one easy form. Push HCR, thats the current topic!

            by no puma on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:58:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Jesus what a racist thing to say (9+ / 0-)

              White people do NOT get to dictate when and where us saying the n-word, particularly to a black person, is racist or not. We have no fucking right.

              Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

              by moviemeister76 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:08:09 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Agreed--however it seems his black teammates (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SmallAxe

                were the ones who dictated what language was acceptable--apparently they used this type of language to bond.  Again, no one is defending Incognito's words and actions.  They are simply saying you don't seem to understand this NFL culture.  no reason to be so defensive.

                •  I'm not defensive (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm outraged. And trying to use "Well those black guys didn't have a problem with it" is always the wrong thing to say. Because apparently one black guy did have a problem with it. As was his right.

                  And as others have already pointed out to you but you just conveniently ignored, women went through the same damn thing when they first started entering male-dominated fields. We were also told we just "didn't understand the culture" and should just put up with it. So you repeating that makes you look like a guy who is trying to defend a bunch of bullies. You're just another American who has decided that sports players are exceptional and should be allowed to make their own rules and do what they want.

                  Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

                  by moviemeister76 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 07:11:42 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Yep, just like women put up with being (6+ / 0-)

          groped and listening to gross jokes about their bodies in factories, because they knew it was just kidding and wasn't meant that way.  What an amazing amount of bullshit people can come up with to justify a bunch of crap.

    •  Hopefully this house of cards falls (14+ / 0-)

      Sports, fraternities, schools, whaterver. Hazing is stupid, brutal and barbaric.  There is no excuse for it because of the culture of any fucking thing.

      If it's in the culture, the culture sucks and needs to be changed.

    •  oh no you don't lordcopper -- victim-blaming (11+ / 0-)

      even so subtle as yours

      they went overboard because Martin's measurables suggested that he could be a good player when they should have just cut him and moved on if they thought he wasn't playing well.
      suggesting Martin's at fault here for not being @-hole enough is disgusting.

      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:51:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Have you listened to any of the comments coming (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SmallAxe

        from teammates; other active players; former players?  Lordcooper is not saying anything about "blaming Martin".  He is saying it is important to understand someone's culture/upbringing/motivations prior to  making sweeping condemnations.  I think I've read that around here, from time to time--but then those are about "different people", motivated by different things.

        •  taffers: I'm a military vet (6+ / 0-)

          and a college grad (twice in fact: AS and BA). I know about hazing.
          It's disgusting, but this is something far beyond that. This is a criminal conspiracy, and if the coaching staff didn't squash it, or worse didn't notice it, they're as much a part of the problem as big-bellied small-brained Richie Incognito. Capice?

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:02:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, if it is criminal, it sounds like every team (0+ / 0-)

            in the league better start preparing for court.  According to many active and former players, this is not out of the ordinary--only that we are hearing about it.  Kinda like the "bounty gate" thing the Saints dealt with.  Players all over the league stated that was the same type of language they have herald for years.

            Again, I'm not condoning--but I'm not as shocked as others seem to be.  

      •  Not blaming the victim, but the perpetrators (0+ / 0-)

        Note, he is saying that IF management thought he wasn't playing well, they should have cut him, not resorted to this BS.

        LC isn't saying he should have been cut. He is saying the decision to get rid of someone should be based on their playing ability and it should be done through a professional cut, not through harrassment.

    •  Then "cut" the guy (7+ / 0-)

      Either a player can "hack it", or they can't - players are cut every season for cause.

      This is how frat houses handle members, not professional unionized organizations.

      Seems to me the coach didn't have that cause, and sent the knuckle dragger to send his message.

      “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

      by RUNDOWN on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:24:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What is the correct tempermament to being called (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      white blitz, gustynpip

      a "nigger," being extorted for $15 million dollars, and having one of your co-workers call and say they he will "kill you?"

      Interestingly, Martin had the temperment to survive high school and college ball.  Your comment... makes me feel kind of ill.  

      •  $15,000 not $15 million (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eyesbright, white blitz
      •  Well that makes us even because your inability (0+ / 0-)

        to comprehend English does the same for me.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 11:07:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  To punch the SOB in the mouth. And if you (0+ / 0-)

        can't stomach that, then you probably shouldn't be in the NFL.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 11:09:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  First of all that is nonsense. Violence (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nellgwen, Deep Texan

          doesn't solve anything.  What if this had escalated -  what if he had decided to get a gun and threaten Incognito - would you be yelling empty platitudes then.  

          Secondly, you seem to believe that Incognito was acting alone - I find that hard to believe.  Bullies often travel in packs and it seems like Incognito's actions were condoned by the team and possibly some of his teammates.

          Regardless, the real truth is that there is no place in the NFL for Incognito. The guy was kicked off 2 college teams and let go by two pro teams for his behavior.  Its always completely unacceptable to call someone a racial slur, the NFL culture isn't a license to act as a neanderthal, be racist, to bully and extort rookies and young people, to disparage women, or any of the other bullshit "NFL culture" is commonly used to defend.  

          I heard Dungy talking about this and he stated that he did not allow rookie hazing in his lockerroom.  He wanted rookies to immediately feel apart of the team.  I heard Charlies Casserly, former Texans GM, say he and all his football people agreed Incognito was bad news, regardless of his talent, so obviously his behavior doesn't sit well with everybody. You can have some modicum of class or restraint inside an NFL lockerroom, it doesn't have to be lord of the flies.  Acting as if it does is insulting and an excuse to allow the bad behavior to continue.

          There is a video on TMZ where Incognoito is drunkenly ranting at a bar this summer, dropping N-bombs. Is that part of the culture too? NFL players should be expected to behave in a manner that complies with OUR culture, not a culture thought up by 5th grade boys.  

          •  So you expect one man to stand on the principle (0+ / 0-)

            of non-violence while being assaulted  and extorted by another?  This exchange has become unproductive for both of us so let's just end it.

            "Because I am a river to my people."

            by lordcopper on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 11:34:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What are you talking about? Yeah, you want to (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gustynpip, Deep Texan

              end this exchange b/c you have NOTHING.  I want Incognito to act like an adult and I want Martin to be respected for coming forward as a VICTIM of outrageous bullying.  If Incognito had done the things he did to Martin to me I would have filed a complaint with the NFL.  People like you rushing to use their fist is why so many people end up with bullet holes.  

        •  Rush Limbaugh suggested the punching.... (0+ / 0-)

          so maybe that is not the best idea.  How does beating your tormentor build up team loyalty.

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 05:35:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I get what (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      white blitz

      you are saying.  And I even agree with you a little.

      But Incognito went waaaay over the line.  He didn't just shit talk him or yell at him, or do some dumb stuff to his belongings- that's not what we're talking about here.  

      Even in locker rooms there has to be a line between "toughing up" and assaulting.  

    •  The "culture of football"? (0+ / 0-)

      Clearly the first play in the NFL apologists playbook.

      "When people show you who they really are, believe them." - Maya Angelou

      by Pennsylvanian on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 01:39:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Dolphins don't have team captains (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah

    They have a "leadership council", voted on by the players.  So, Incognito was given a leadership role by him peers.

  •  Macho is as Macho does, Yuck! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, marina, JVolvo, tommyfocus2003

    Never promote men who seek after a state-established religion; it is spiritual tyranny--the worst of despotism. It is turnpiking the way to heaven by human law, in order to establish ministerial gates to collect toll. John Leland

    by J Edward on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 07:49:51 AM PST

  •  I hate diaries that claim something (0+ / 0-)

    is deplorable but offer no clue about what that something is.

    Apparently an overpaid, over-idolized athlete did something bad.  I'm outraged.

    There is no higher achievement in life than to make a child laugh.

    by Fiddler On A Hot Tin Roof on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:01:41 AM PST

  •  What has been making me crazy... (25+ / 0-)

    ... about this story are the subtle jabs at Martin.  Do not forget, Jonathan Martin protected the blindside of Andrew Luck and was a two time All-America while playing for Stanford (in one of the tougher conferences in college football).  This guy isn't a wuss, he's the opposite of guys like Icognito - intelligent AND strong.  From an article in the Mercury-News:

    "He always wanted to make everybody happy and make friends and not be a problem," Martin's high school coach at Harvard-Westlake, Vic Eumont, told the Palm Beach Post. "All of his teachers loved him. All of his teammates loved him. He was always 'yes' or 'no, sir,' do whatever you ask him to do. I can see where somebody that's a bully will take advantage of him, and rather than him say anything would just hold it inside."
    ...
    Martin was the prototypical Stanford student and athlete. He earned a degree in ancient Greek and Roman classics and if not for football would have become the first fourth-generation African-American to attend Harvard.
    ...
    Former Stanford teammates used to gush about Martin's meticulous approach to practice. "Moose" would do anything to master the complex playbook created for Luck, now quarterback for the Indianapolis Colts. That eye for detail may explain why Martin has said he wants to attend Harvard after he's done playing and eventually become a trial lawyer.

    Former teammates have talked about Martin's toughness and resilience, something his high school coach highlighted this week.

    Looking through the bent backed tulips, To see how the other half lives, Looking through a glass onion - John Lennon and Paul McCartney

    by Hey338Too on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:12:05 AM PST

  •  At least the NFL draws the line at Limbaugh (11+ / 0-)

    Today's NFL is bigger, stronger, faster, has more steroid rage and is more likely to suffer early onset dementia.

    The team owners extort new stadiums from tax payers, corporations bid for naming rights, and Johnny Unitas wouldn't last a series of downs.

    That ain't progress.

    I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

    by Just Bob on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:14:57 AM PST

    •  I look back fondly on my Cowboys (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JVolvo, Deep Texan, Miggles, Just Bob

      Don Meredith.
      Roger Staubach.
      Walt Garrison.
      Bob Lilly.
      Harvey Martin.
      Tom Landry.

      WTF has happened in the last 20 - 25 years not just to the NFL but the nation?

      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:04:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Back when it was booze, broads and painkillers... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan, Miggles, Just Bob

        I'll forgive you for somehow leaving out 5-time Pro Bowler Lee Roy Jordan.

        :o)

        Playfulness aside, the NFL was never Golden (Richards), there was - and remains - a tribal culture of domination, violence, hierarchy and win-at-all-costs with little to no regard for the health and life impacts on the players.

        Remember the referee lockout last year?  The player lockouts and strikes before that? Note the "voluntary" workouts at issue with Incognito's "team building" phone call?

        Just billionaires squeezing their employees for highest profit...in a non-profit monopoly business.

        Retired Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able). Sarcasm for and Derision of Happy Clappy True Believers / Entitlement "Reformers" / NSA cheerleaders (yes, significant overlap) still available 24/7, you betcha!

        by JVolvo on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:29:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  This guy was trouble coming out of Nebraska (9+ / 0-)

    several NFL teams passed on him in the draft because they anticipated problems like this.

  •  Thankfully this bigot's no longer on the Rams. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Via Chicago, BlackSheep1

    or in the NFL (hopefully).

  •  Thuggery over voluntary practices... (7+ / 0-)

    what's the point of making them "voluntary" if you're going pull this kind of shit? Some kind of stupid test on the part of the coaches?

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

    by richardak on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:17:26 AM PST

  •  Not defending him at all, but the video just (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    whenwego

    shows a drunk human acting drunk, although I can't hear all he says.  If we had videos of most our politicians when they have been drunk I would bet they would be just as disgusting in their own ways.  Remember George Bush?  

    "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:22:09 AM PST

    •  I watched the same video and saw a fat ranting (8+ / 0-)

      obnoxious jock spouting obscenties that luckily I didn't hear all that well.

      If I was that owner of that bar I'd tell him to leave and not come back. Did you notice how everyone was shying away from him in case he went full-postal? That's sure to encourage your customers to come back, isn't it?

      If you can't do your job on a football team (or anywhere else) without resulting to racist slurs, perhaps you should find a different line of work.

      And perhaps the fans who idolize you should consider what they are willing or unwilling to put up with when it comes to their "entertainment."

      Let me ask the fathers out there: would you let your son watch that video of Incognito ranting and swearing and then tell him that's the kind of behavior he should emulate?

      I think not.

      •  "Fat" Interesting when people can call someone (0+ / 0-)

        fat and when they can't.  People call Christie a fat bastard and others get right on that.  
        Like I said, not defending him, just that I've been drunk before and acted in ways I wouldn't normally have.  And I've seen plenty of others do the same.  Alcohol and drugs do that to people.

        "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 09:53:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Would you prefer I used "overweight" or (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          burlydee, Bruin1815

          "corpulent" instead of fat? What about obese? Are we arguing about what the politically correct phrase is to use for individuals who are above their recommended BMI or what?

          Or are you defending the actions of an obviously drunk, supposedly mature male in a public bar? I've acted badly in public myself and I'm not going to use that to excuse unacceptable behavior.

          If you know you can't handle liquor, choose to use it anyway, and then act like a horse's ass--then be prepared to accept the consequences.

          Luckily this fool didn't get behind the wheel of a car and kill someone as he drove home in a drunken stupor.

      •  Well said (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice

        That obnoxious slab of meat in the video is why I have no interests whatsoever in football.  Why would I want to watch a bunch of raging assholes engaging in paramilitary excercises?  Sure it takes skill to play football, but I can watch any number of other sports which require as much or more skill and do not feature the worst sorts of jocks since Cro-Magnons walked the Earth.

        "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

        by Subterranean on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 11:08:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  What Incognito did was illegal! (14+ / 0-)

    Last time I checked, leaving a voicemail telling someone you'll kill them and assault members of their family is illegal. The only thing Martin did wrong was not reporting this to the police.

  •  Well, if the Dolphins made Incognito do it (5+ / 0-)

    they should be punished as severely as Incognito, who may be out of the NFL for good.

  •  Incognito NEEDS to be out of the NFL for good (7+ / 0-)

    and out of the surrounding big-money high-fame culture (I'm looking at YOU, FoxSports/NFL Network/ ESPN) as well.

    Keith Olbermann's comment on Incognito was spot-on IMO.
    (Olbermann hasn't lost a step, though it looks as if he has lost some weight.)

    LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

    by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 10:06:50 AM PST

  •  Never liked Footbal (US Football) (0+ / 0-)

    My view - silly game - infantile premise.  I know the US is mad for football (High School, Collegiate, Pro) but I am not interested.  Never have been.  I attended a small Catholic High School - Academic emphasis.  No football.  Never went to any college football game (USF Bulls, Tampa).  Went to a Bucs game back in the day with some foster children (I was a Foster Care Counselor at the time).  When the Bucs were Orange - very Orange!

    I do like Soccer.  I do like to see soccer players touching, hugging, kissing and all of that.  As a gay man, soccer is fascinating to me.  Many soccer players are free to be themselves.  Finally the world of sports moves into the 21st century to some degree.  Hallelujah.

    US Football.  Not so fascinating.  College football does have its moments.  The players are interesting.  The NFL seems archaic at times.

    I understand those who love football.  It is a societal ritual that reflects tribalism, pseudo city-states, celebrity worship, penis envy, etc.  I do understand.  The injuries are concerning.  Always have been.

    •  Or it could be that those of us growing up (0+ / 0-)

      played football and enjoyed the sport.  Is the fanaticism for soccer any different?  People grow up enjoying what they played as kids.  In Britain, India and Pakistan they love Cricket. I don't get it, but don't insult those who love and follow it.  Every sport has good and bad points.  I'd say European Soccer has a bigger problem with racism than American Football, but that's just from my limited knowledge perspective.  And homophobia in soccer seems to be just as prevalent as it is in American sports.  Didn't a player from England get suspended for homophobic slurs just last year?  Sports, and its fans are very similar all over--no need to say one is better or worse than the other

  •  Is it any wonder (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    that the Dolphins haven't won a superbowl since the 70s.  As a life-long Miami resident & Dolphin's fan, I have always figured there was a team unity problem, they couldn't even win a superbowl w/ Dan Marino and Don Shula.

    Meanwhile, the members of the Miami Heat (as much as EVERYONE outside of Miami hates them) appear to really like and respect one another.  At times, it is like watching kids having a blast on the court.  It isn't surprising that that type of environment (plus LeBron James of course) would foster the best team in the NBA.

    It's not easy being a Floridian: PS I'm a lawYER now; no longer a lawSTUDENT.

    by lawstudent922 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 11:05:04 AM PST

  •  Stupid Dolphins (5+ / 0-)

    Good luck getting free agents next year... or the year after that, etc etc.

    NFL needs to look into this. And all the journalists who tut tut and say, "Football needs people like this!" or "How can the American sportswatcher not expect this to take place?"

    Hey, I'm in the military, and we "go to war" too. And yes, hazing is involved in many military cultures. But I'm pretty sure no First Sergeant would be fine with me calling my coworkers racial slurs.

    Sometimes, I wonder why I consider myself a Democrat. Before too long though, dumb Republicans saying dumb things come along to remind me.

    by LnGrrrR on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 11:38:32 AM PST

    •  what about pussy? (0+ / 0-)

      faggot?

      just wondering, because this is a serious problem. especially with so many guns in our country.

      -You want to change the system, run for office.

      by Deep Texan on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 01:48:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah... (0+ / 0-)

        I am pretty sure MEO (military equal opportunity) wouldn't be kosher with those either.

        Sometimes, I wonder why I consider myself a Democrat. Before too long though, dumb Republicans saying dumb things come along to remind me.

        by LnGrrrR on Wed Nov 06, 2013 at 08:44:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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