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They say that conceal carry holders in Texas have less crime, but calling for registration of gun owners, as required for conceal carry in Texas for example, would be fought tooth and nail as pre-confiscation of guns. If the crime rate for CC permit holders is lower in Texas could it be because they are under the heaviest gun control known to man? Any elected official proposing this method of lowering gun violence would be NRA recalled in a nano second.

Here's what it takes in Texas to be a member of the low crime rate conceal carry group. It's not a disco, it's not a party, it's no foolin' around.

In order to get a CC permit in Texas you have to furnish


Social security number,

Valid driver license or identification card,

Current demographic, address, contact, and employment information,

Residential and employment information for the last five years (new users only),

Information regarding any psychiatric, drug, alcohol, or criminal history (new users only),

Valid email address, and

Valid credit card (Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express)

 ALL FEES ARE NON-REFUNDABLE

You have to wait
The Department will make every effort to issue your license within 60 days of receiving the completed application packet.

How much does a CC permit cost in Texas.

The standard fee for an original CHL is $140 (- 4 years).  The standard fee for a renewal of a CHL is $70 (- 5 years).
What about your fingerprints on file for a CC permit in Texas?
We will use existing fingerprints and photos on file for renewal applications.  

However, sometimes the quality of those prints originally submitted no longer meets the State or FBI standards.  If we are unable to use the fingerprints on file, you will be notified to obtain a new set of prints along with instructions on where you must be fingerprinted.  

Got a DWI? you're gonna have to wait 5 years.
DWI is classified as at least a Class B misdemeanor, and you are ineligible for a license for five years after a conviction for a Class A or Class B misdemeanor.  For the purpose of determining eligibility, a conviction includes those that were dismissed after you completed probation or deferred adjudication.
Didn't pay child support? You're gonna have to pay up before you get a CC permit.
The Concealed Handgun law states an application for a CHL may be denied for individual finally determined to be delinquent in child support obligations.  
And you have to be trained, but that training is not cost regulated.
The Department does not regulate the cost charged by DPS certified instructors.

I have seen statistics that the CC permit holders are the lowest crime ridden group in Texas. But I also notice they are the most controlled gun owners in Texas.

Now that's some salad. Slicing and dicing. Don't cha know.

Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 3:20 PM PT: UPDATE.  Thank you, thank you, Dkos Community!!!! My first diary to make 100 comments. Although that means nothing it is statistically relevant to me. YAY!!!

Oh I wanted to include links, I forgot. So here they are.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) about
Texas Concealed Handguns

and

Texas CHL Data Shows What Happens in the Wild West

Originally posted to numerology doesn't add up on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:12 PM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Not to mention (7+ / 0-)

    Just getting a valid license in TX is a journey, let me tell you!

    The amount of paperwork you have to furnish could fill a phone book.

    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

    by coquiero on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:18:47 PM PST

  •  That would seem to say that (6+ / 0-)

    licensing works to reduce crime. That if everyone that owned guns was licensed in that way that crime overall would be reduced.
    It also seems very intrusive by comparison to registering the guns themselves.
    But the gun guys are OK with concealed carry permit process.
    Does that make any sense?

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:22:22 PM PST

  •  I'm sure all Americans can get behind (6+ / 0-)

    Common sense controls for gun ownership.  We are a civilized people after all.

    "Goodnight, thank you, and may your God go with you"

    by TheFern on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:23:09 PM PST

  •  Yeah, everyone in Texas places their bets on (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, LilithGardener

    "Constitutional Carry". Do what you want and fuck the government.

    On the other hand, if they have really out in the open, at least you can see it coming from far enough away to shoot first.

    There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

    by oldpotsmuggler on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:29:32 PM PST

  •  That is about the same thing required (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener, gerrilea

    to purchase a gun from a dealer, and most sales are dealer sales. Perhaps you should visit a firearms dealer and make a purchase, that way you would be familiar with ATF form 4473 and realize this already what we get called for.

    It appears that Texas doesn't know what guns a person owns or what gun they may carry. I know the state doesn't get that info in Washington.

    In order to get a CC permit in Texas you have to furnish
    Social security number,
    Valid driver license or identification card,

    Current demographic, address, contact, and employment information,

    Residential and employment information for the last five years (new users only),

    Information regarding any psychiatric, drug, alcohol, or criminal history (new users only),

    Valid email address, and

    Valid credit card (Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express)

     ALL FEES ARE NON-REFUNDABLE

    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by notrouble on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:42:36 PM PST

    •  Finger prints, photos, 60 day waiting, not (4+ / 0-)

      issued if child support is behind, not issued 5 years after a DUI. Classroom instruction, not cost controlled. Renewable every 4 or 5 years. $150 to start, $70 to renew. Not sure how often classroom instruction has to be renewed.

      The requirements above just gets you to the application page, merely the 1st step in a demanding process.

      Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

      by 88kathy on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:11:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Texas Concealed Carry Permit holders are the (3+ / 0-)

      most gun controlled group anywhere. So they have less crime.

      But that is what we are saying. Control guns means less crime.

      Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

      by 88kathy on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:14:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not quite (4+ / 0-)

        According to what I've read, DC is the most restrictive.

        All guns must be registered, ballistics test on record. All gun owners must be finger printed, pass a safety class that includes classroom and range time. Only 1 gun can be registered per 30 day period. And all that is just to have a gun in your home.

        Assault weapons severely restricted. (recently upheld by DC Circuit Ct. of Appeals)
        10 round max capacity for magazines. (recently upheld by DC Circuit Ct. of Appeals)

        No open carry.
        No concealed carry.

        That's just off the top of my head.

        Don't shoot me if I missed a detail. (pun intended)

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:49:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  WHERE'S THE REGISTRY111//OMFSM111NOOOO... (5+ / 0-)

        FACT:

        Only ONE WAY to drop the level of gun violence in 'MERICA! dammit.
        Have you read no pro-gun control diaries in the past year???

        A COMPLETE AND TOTAL GUN REGISTRY WITH UNANNOUNCED HOME INSPECTIONS BY ARMED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.  COST PAID BY FEES COLLECTED VIA TOTAL AND COMPLETE LICENSING.  GUN INSURANCE, INCLUDING AN ADDITIONAL PREMIUM FOR THE COST OF FIREARM HOMICIDES, SUICIDES, AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTERS.  ALARM SYSTEM AND SAFE REQUIREMENTS.  BULLET MICRO-STAMPING.  AMMUNITION CASING MICRO-STAMPING. BIOMETRIC ENCODING SO THAT ONLY THE LICENSED/INSURED/REGISTERED FIREARM MAY BE USED.
        100% CONFISCATION OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE THESE DEVICES.  5 ROUND MAGAZINE CAPACITY.  NO WEAPON UNDER 1/2 METER IN OVERALL LENGHT.  NO WEAPON UNDER 5 POUNDS IN WEIGHT.  NO WEAPON COMPOSED OF OTHER THAN 100% DETECTABLE MATERIAL.  NO WEAPON WITHOUT GEO-LOCATION DEVICE, WHICH IF REMOVED, DESTROYS  THE WEAPON. WHAT PART OF KEEP DIDN'T YOU UNDERSTAND///11  MAKE EVERY REGISTERED GUN COST $1000 PER YEAR, EVERY BULLET $100.  THEN DOUBLE THAT FEE EVERY FIVE YEARS.
        Everyone knows, a State license scheme such as Texas employs is useless.  CCW permit holders are TEH DANGER.
        Psychotic menaces to society.  Redneck jingoistic Red Dawn wannabes.

        Or did I log-into Red State by accident?

        •  Can you link (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheFern

          to that block quote? Would be nice to have whenever the anti's claim that no one is against law abiding citizens against having guns.

          •  Compilation of post-Sandy Hook comments. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IndieGuy, Kasoru, FrankRose

            I have however, added the 111/// instead of the original equipment ??? !!! punctuations.

            We have a dichotomy of anti-gun/pro-regulation thought here at DKos:

            Easiest was: background checks do nothing/are "teh awesome".  That's always fun to watch.

            The three other major camps:
            CCW is inviting a mass murderer amongst us.  Unseen is the enemy of good.  

            Seen, you call the cops and insist they do their job and make a confiscation, if not arrest.
            Press the issue with the LEOs:
            "I AM BEING GUN-BULLIED I DEMAND ACTION!"
            If the law's not there to support the arrest, make your case in social media instead.  
            Propaganda kills rights faster than legislation.

            CCW is ineffective in stopping mass murder as only a registry and licensing scheme is workable.
            That follows the unseen is the enemy rule.

            You write the license and registry scheme to prohibit firearm and ammunition in the same space.
            Full-on effective ban of hunting (win), and home defense (win), and require a licensed/bonded/insured shooting range be the only place to purchase ammunition - all of which must be consumed on-premises.  George Zimmerman that - with an empty gun - bitches.

            CCW and firearm licenses are only useful, if a full-on Australia-style confiscation follows hard on it's heels.

            You may keep your single-shot .22 rimfire rifle, your single or double barrel shotgun loaded with #6 or smaller shot.  << See, Second Amendment upheld.
            Handguns?  Sure, you can have them.  Just no ammunition outside of a Government-sanctioned shooting facility.

            Once again, the rule of herding cats, proven.

          •  You can't believe much of what you read on (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coquiero, LilithGardener, 88kathy

            The internet.  It turns out that some people just make up a bunch of shit.

            "Goodnight, thank you, and may your God go with you"

            by TheFern on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:56:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  So many diaries at Dkos are in all caps. It's (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener, TheFern

          hard to remember which one you mean.

          Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

          by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:33:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Where do you get your estimates that most (5+ / 0-)

      sales are dealer sales.

      Curious to learn more. Thanks.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:46:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  very nicely done...you could call it a... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, LilithGardener, TheFern, coquiero

    smack down.

    We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

    by Glen The Plumber on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:26:57 PM PST

    •  I'm calling it a salad slap. (6+ / 0-)

      Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

      by 88kathy on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:29:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you for the morning chuckle. (4+ / 0-)
      •  I know...it's hilarious... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coquiero, 88kathy, LilithGardener, TheFern

        somebody wrote a diary about how safe CC permit holders are in Texas...this diarist points out the hoops they must jump thru...more than required of non-CC permit holders.

        surely won't weed out all the bad apples...but the stats in the first diary points out...it could help.

        unless you think drunken deadbeats without training or background checks should be able to own guns.

        We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

        by Glen The Plumber on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:59:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think owning firearms and carrying firearms (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kasoru, IndieGuy, FrankRose, ER Doc

          are two different things.

          Glad to see you're for Texas style shall issue carry though. Let's use it as a model for all of the states and implement it everywhere then, right? NY, Cali, RI, DC...

          •  keep and bear - are 2 different things? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber, LilithGardener

            Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

            by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:57:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't have an issue with shall issue concealed (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kasoru, IndieGuy, ER Doc

              carry licenses.

              I do have an issue with permits to OWN a firearm.

              •  It is demonstrated that the group with those (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Glen The Plumber

                permits has less crime than the general pop. Seems like it stands to reason, BELLY UP TO THE BAR restrictions on gun ownership would have the opposite effect.

                Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

                by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:07:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Which is why Vermont, with Constitutional carry, (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kasoru, IndieGuy, ER Doc

                  is one of the most crime ridden states in the union.

                  Wait a minute...

                  •  but your diary was on Texas CCL... (0+ / 0-)

                    let's stick to your great example...also liked the 60 day waiting period...let's expand it to all gun owners and purchases.

                    We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                    by Glen The Plumber on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:35:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Why would you expand a license to (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kasoru, IndieGuy, FrankRose, ER Doc

                      operate in public to a license to own? That doesn't make sense.

                      How 'bout we expand the Texas shall issue carry permit so it works in every state? That sounds good to me.

                      My great example also takes into account that there is no firearm registration or license to purchase firearms.

                      •  They wish to expand (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        IndieGuy, FrankRose

                        as in a may issue state, owner permits can/will be denied effectively banning guns. Those that re grandfathered will be denied upon renewal of course.

                        Unless your a pol or celebrity. Because our betters are more important... or something... you thug?

                        •  wow...look at you...actually made a non-meta (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          coquiero, LilithGardener

                          comment...now we just need to get you out of the dead-threads.

                          new users that hang in dead-threads talking of nothing but meta makes users look trollish.

                          and no...that would not be my criteria for CCL...I mean really...do you want Mel Gibson walking around with a gun..??

                          We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                          by Glen The Plumber on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:03:51 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  mmm... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            IndieGuy, FrankRose

                            been here 6 months.. 4 bars mojo with TU... participation in other threads and topics...

                            My sincerest apologies that I don't meet your approval. I put on my try hard pants for you. Can't let u down!! Oh how my heart aches!!!

                            Now how about commenting on the topic at hand instead of being a ass and attacking me personally?

                          •  oh yes...your comment...it was so... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LilithGardener

                            thoughtful...and oh my..!!..4 bars..!!..I've seen 9 y.o. kids with 5...after less time than you...I wouldn't put too much faith in the rating system.

                            why bother replying...you had already put all the words into my mouth...like eastwood with a chair...you don't need me.

                            but for the record...just because I don't believe people should be walking around willy-nilly with guns...doesn't mean I think they are thugs.

                            maybe if the discussion could move past the black and white...yelling past each other bs...you would learn most are not as extreme as you think...heck...there is even a group...here...gun-owners and non-owners where people try to look deeper into the laws and statistics...it's called FLAP...sadly...we've had pushback from extremist on both sides.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:40:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh captain (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            FrankRose

                            my captain.. I promise to be better... ok?

                          •  Takes someone NOT talking about meta to task (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kasoru

                            about talking meta.........all while talking meta himself.

                            Thanks for the Triple-decker irony sandwich with a side of Unselfawareness and a nice cold glass of YouHavegottabeshittingme.

                            It really hit the spot, Glen!

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 08:25:01 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Someone who calls for the Repeal of a (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            MertvayaRuka

                            Constitutional Amendment calling other people's viewpoints 'extremist'.
                            You are an irony buffet.

                            As much as I appreciate your Bill O'Reillyesque attempts at trying to present FLAP as anything but RASAv2, you aren't fooling anybody.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 07:19:44 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  but you proved... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        coquiero

                        gun owners that are not licensed...with registered guns...classes...background checks and waiting periods...are more dangerous.

                        let's run with that...all handguns must be registered...safety classes...etc..!!..it's a winner..!!

                        We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                        by Glen The Plumber on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:57:01 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No I didn't. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          IndieGuy, FrankRose

                          I compared general population to concealed carry permit holders. That includes those who can't legally own firearms (who commit more than 50% of firearm related violent crime) as well as those who can.

                          •  pretty thin slice you made there. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero, LilithGardener

                            but obviously...those that could pass those requirements have proven to be safe gun owners...let's just expand a proven method to all purchases...and add new requirements for CCL's...like you need to prove a need.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:46:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's ridiculous. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kasoru, IndieGuy, FrankRose

                            It'd be like saying "Vermont has concealed carry and is ranked third in the nation for least amount of firearm related violent crime. Let's implement Constitutional carry nationwide."

                          •  well...what was the point of your diary..?? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            I thought it was to show that gun owners that passed Texas' CCL requirements were safer than even police officers. Didn't see any mention of Vermont.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:09:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That the rivers of blood that people predict (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kasoru, IndieGuy, FrankRose

                            when a shall issue carry law passes never come to pass.

                            So you're all for expanding the Texas shall issue conceal carry law across the country right? By your own admission, it's effective.

                          •  LOL (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            FrankRose, Kasoru, KVoimakas
                            those that could pass those requirements have proven to be safe gun owners...let's just expand a proven method to all purchases...and add new requirements for CCL's...like you need to prove a need.
                            So your next logical step is to add another requirement that would only serve to reduce the number of people who'd pass the requirements, despite acknowledging that the people who pass the requirements all ready in place are proven to be safe gun owners.

                            Do you wonder why folks might think you're not entirely on the level and might possibly have some concern that's more important to you than reducing firearms deaths and injuries when your reaction to being shown how safe and responsible CCL holders are is "Awesome! Now how can we make sure fewer people qualify to be CCL holders?"?

                            I mean, it's almost like it's more important to you that there be fewer legal firearms owners than safer legal firearms owners.

                          •  ha...yes...fewer and safer. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            I guess we all have our motivations...some want to reduce gun violence...make the world a more peaceful place...for others it's business...a push for more customers.

                            not that we should fault people for wanting to put food on their table...but we should consider their motivation.

                            you sound like somebody in the gun industry...I don't really trust bankers on bank regulation...insurers on insurance regulation...etc...obviously they have an important place at the table...but we can't let them write the rules.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 07:28:07 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nor can we let somebody who wants to (0+ / 0-)

                            Repeal an Amendment in the Bill of Rights write the rules.
                            And I can assure you, we most definitely take their motivations into account.

                            Some of us want to protect the rights & liberties of innocent Americans.....for others it is about taking Rights from "those people".

                            Fortunately, in the end, the voters make the rules & the Constitution protects the rules.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 08:55:15 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  that's funny coming from someone willing... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            to infringe upon peoples' first amendment rights...just so you can feel safer...I should be able to peacefully assemble with whom I choose...when I want...using whatever modern tool available.

                            phones don't kill people...people kill people.

                            some of us want to protect the rights and liberties of innocent Americans.....for others it is about taking rights from "those people".

                            you sir are a liar and a hypocrite...I never said I would work to repeal the 2a...revise maybe...still not willing to waste my energy.

                            although it wouldn't bother me if it were repealed...no other country has a 2a...yet still allow for safe and sane gun ownership.

                            I would be willing work towards revising the constitution...as allowed by our founding fathers...I work with this group.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 09:29:12 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nobody said you couldn't say anything you want. (0+ / 0-)

                            I simply used your vernacular and said we 'can't let you write the rules'
                            It is telling that you read that (which, again, was written using your template from your comment) as an infringement on the first.....exactly how many Constitutional Rights do you want to infringe upon?

                            "you sir are a liar and a hypocrite, I never said I would work to repeal the 2a"
                            Yes. You are simply an outspoken member of a group called "Repeal or amend the Second Amendment".
                            And just in case anyone missed your disingenuousness, you go on to say "it wouldn't bother me if it were repealed".

                            So much projection & irony.
                            Thank you for that.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 09:43:18 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  what are you even talking about..?? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            keep up.

                            first...I was asked to help with admin duties for RASA because I was doing the shutdown the nra group...I'm not against their goal...just not willing to put any effort into it.

                            and second...you are the one that wants to infringe on the rights of innocent and responsible Americans to talk freely...without infringement...on their phones...just so you can feel safer...I trust Americans.

                            good luck trying to amend the 1a.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 10:41:10 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, you don't. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            FrankRose, Kasoru

                            If you did, you'd not want to further restrict a group of people (CPL holders) who are convicted of crime at a lesser rate than LEOs.

                          •  Claims to not do any work for a group dedicated to (0+ / 0-)

                            the Repeal of an Amendment:
                            Admits to being an administer for the same group....
                            "Keep up", indeed.

                            "I trust Americans"
                            Just not with their current liberties.

                            "good luck trying to amend the 1a"
                            I don't want to repeal any Amendment in the Bill of Rights.
                            In fact, if a group dedicated to doing so asked me to join with them in any way, I would unequivocally say "No."

                            It's too bad you can't say the same.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 10:58:02 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah...2 clicks when I'm already republishing (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            for my group...a real big effort.

                            we have a shared interest...we help each other...big f'ing deal.

                            and let's get back to your hypocrisy...you are willing to infringe on my right to free speech and peaceful assembly so you can feel safer...why do you want to take rights away from innocent Americans..??

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 11:14:00 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course you share an interest with RASA. (0+ / 0-)

                            After all, you are a member of that group dedicated to repealing an amendment in the Bill of Rights.
                            I never said anything contrary to that.

                            "you are willing to infringe on my right to free speech"
                            Absolutely not. At no time have I said otherwise, nor joined a group dedicated to eliminating any Amendment in the Bill of Rights.
                            You are free to espouse any viewpoint you desire.
                            And I am free to expose & refute your viewpoint if I so desire.
                            The 1st Amendment doesn't exist to protect you from dissenting opinions.
                            Perhaps you should start working to change that; we both already know how willing you are to work to take away other people's liberties.
                            You could start a group called "Repeal or Amend the First Amendment".
                            Why not? You have experience in such things.
                            It will only take a couple of clicks.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 12:01:17 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  hey you're the one for banning... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            innocent Americans from using their phones to make you feel safer...you sure are a great defender of rights...or at least the ones you decide are important...do you need the dictionary definition of hypocrite..??

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 01:51:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL WUT? (0+ / 0-)

                            I've never said anything about "banning phones".
                            But, please, do elaborate.

                            "you sure are a great defender of rights"
                            I certainly am not a proponent of eliminating them.
                            That makes one of us.

                            "do you need the dictionary definition of hypocrite?"
                            Why would I need that?
                            You are providing such an excellent example of it.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 02:00:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  maybe not banning...but you sure are for... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            abridging rights to make yourself feel safer.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 02:35:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I against people texting while driving (0+ / 0-)

                            while on public roads.
                            I am also against people shooting while driving on public roads.

                            Clearly, equivalent to Repealing an Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

                            Well played, worthy adversary.
                            Not idiotic at all!

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 05:14:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  wow...first you are for restricting peoples' (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            free speech...now you tell me you would not allow people to defend themselves...just because they are on a public road.

                            come on frankk...it's black or white...yes or no...you're either for rights or against them...next you're going to insist people wear seat-belts against their will...you are starting to sound like Bloomberg...wear this for your own good...don't drink this...it's bad for you...I deem your communication dangerous...  

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 05:37:17 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am no more for restricting the 1st Amendment (0+ / 0-)

                            than I am the 2nd.
                            You, of course, disagree.
                            And judging by your bizarre post, you are fairly ashamed of your stance.
                            Good.

                            "Bloomberg"
                            You mean the one you allied yourself with in Colorado?
                            However did that work out?

                            You are part of a group (and have expressed approval for) taking liberties & Amendments away from innocent people.
                            I am not.

                            I am comfortable with where I stand.
                            It is good to see that you are not. ;)

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 06:10:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I seriously need to make a bingo card (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            FrankRose, Kasoru, DavidMS
                            you sound like somebody in the gun industry
                            Or maybe, just maybe, I sound like somebody who doesn't entirely trust a guy who reccs comments that wish for firearms owners to purposely kill themselves.

                            See, I will put my motivations right on the table. As far as the "gun industry", yeah, I'm a novice gunsmith who might like to make it to journeyman someday. Do I want to be the next Remington or Ruger? No. I want to be the old guy tinkering away in a workshop until my eyes or my hands get too bad to do so, giving other left-of-center folks the option of a gun guy who isn't a screaming right-winger for as long as I'm able. I'd like to make a comfortable living at it, not be wealthy because I wouldn't know what to do with it besides give most of it away.

                            I'm also not a big believer in letting any civil rights be put to legislation by people who can't stop lying about them, are almost entirely ignorant about them, or who use the innocent dead as an argument when their other arguments fall flat. You'll notice I'm not specifying one singular civil right there. 26 dead in Newtown is no more a valid argument for more gun control laws than 3000 dead in NYC is a valid argument for the Patriot Act.

                            Similarly, I am not a big fan of the idea that it's more noble to be victimized, violated or killed than it is to use force in your own defense.

                            And finally, I think people are mostly good. Perfect? No. But I don't think the purchase of a firearm is an act that poisons someone's soul towards evil. I don't think firearms inspire people to violence or self-harm by their mere presence or existence. And I think such sentiments are borderline fundamentalist superstition that has no place in a modern society.

                            If you've got questions, I will answer them. But don't come to me with your assumptions based on nothing but your own biases.

                          •  pretty much stopped reading... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            after your bizarre accusation...but hey...whatever you need to make yourself to feel better...everybody has their own way of finding peace.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 02:33:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  How can someone presumptively be a law abiding (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        coquiero, 88kathy, Glen The Plumber

                        gun owner if someone merely gifted them a gun?

                        Does the gun come with some magical talisman effect of installing knowledge of the law into the new owner?

                        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                        by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:59:59 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  If you want to stick to my great example, (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kasoru, IndieGuy, FrankRose

                      you would want a shall issue carry law like this all over the country.

                      Stick to my example right. Carry laws, not purchasing/owning firearms.

            •  DC v Heller - to "keep arms" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              88kathy

              I'm late to the party but yes, "to keep arms" and to "bear arms" are two separate legal concepts. Both were addressed explicitly in DC v. Heller.

              DC v Heller – “Keep Arms”

              We turn to the phrases “keep arms” and “bear arms.” Johnson defined “keep” as, most relevantly, “[t]o retain; not to lose,” and “[t]o have in custody.” Johnson 1095. Webster defined it as “[t]o hold; to retain in one’s power or possession.” No party has apprised us of an idiomatic meaning of “keep Arms.” Thus, the most natural reading of “keep Arms” in the Second Amendment is to “have weapons.”

                  The phrase “keep arms” was not prevalent in the written documents of the founding period that we have found, but there are a few examples, all of which favor viewing the right to “keep Arms” as an individual right unconnected with militia service. William Blackstone, for example, wrote that Catholics convicted of not attending service in the Church of England suffered certain penalties, one of which was that they were not permitted to “keep arms in their houses.” 4 Commentaries on the Laws of England 55 (1769) (hereinafter Blackstone); see also 1 W. & M., c. 15, §4, in 3 Eng. Stat. at Large 422 (1689) (“[N]o Papist … shall or may have or keep in his House … any Arms … ”); 1 Hawkins, Treatise on the Pleas of the Crown 26 (1771) (similar). Petitioners point to militia laws of the founding period that required militia members to “keep” arms in connection with militia service, and they conclude from this that the phrase “keep Arms” has a militia-related connotation. See Brief for Petitioners 16–17 (citing laws of Delaware, New Jersey, and Virginia). This is rather like saying that, since there are many statutes that authorize aggrieved employees to “file complaints” with federal agencies, the phrase “file complaints” has an employment-related connotation. “Keep arms” was simply a common way of referring to possessing arms, for militiamen and everyone else.7

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:39:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  DC v. Heller - to "bear arms" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              88kathy

              DC v Heller – Bear Arms

              The definition of bear arms was written by Justice Ginsberg in a prior case, one in which both she and Justice Scalia were in the minority. Scalia quotes her definition, saying that she got it right.


              At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” See Johnson 161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Complete Dictionary of the English Language (1796); 2 Oxford English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford). When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning that refers to carrying for a particular purpose—confrontation. In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998) , in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, Justice Ginsburg wrote that “[s]urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment … indicate[s]: ‘wear, bear, or carry … upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose … of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’ ” Id., at 143 (dissenting opinion) (quoting Black’s Law Dictionary 214 (6th ed. 1998)). We think that Justice Ginsburg accurately captured the natural meaning of “bear arms.” Although the phrase implies that the carrying of the weapon is for the purpose of “offensive or defensive action,” it in no way connotes participation in a structured military organization.
              I wrote a recent diary asserting that the definition of bear arms in Heller implies a training requirement, Firearms Law and Policy Open Thread - The bearer of arms must also be ready Sunday Nov. 10, 2013.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:46:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  So I assume that you are going to encourage (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IndieGuy

          people to get a CCW permit?

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 11:27:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is what I have been saying I encourage. (3+ / 0-)
            1. Improper storage of a gun - loss of physical possession of the gun - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

            2. Improper handling of a gun - gun discharged inappropriately - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

            Limiting of gun kill speed
            Limiting of gun ownership speed.

            Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

            by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:44:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Cool story. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas, IndieGuy

              But you didn't answer the question. (Nor did Glenn)

              Do you support encouraging more people in TX to get CCWs?

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:30:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  awww...did you feel left out..?? (4+ / 0-)

                of course not...I just want KV's proven methods expanded to all gun purchases.

                I would only allow CC only for special cases...you wouldn't qualify.

                We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                by Glen The Plumber on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:39:40 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  roflmao. OK, so you're going to take my statistics (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  FrankRose, Kasoru, IndieGuy

                  which are based on SHALL ISSUE CONCEALED CARRY and then apply them in general so there is no more concealed carry?

                  Seriously?

                  •  No all I am saying is that you proved the point (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    coquiero, LilithGardener

                    that extreme regulation of a group showed very low crime rate in that group. Why? Who knows maybe the cc people in Texas are known by the police an don't get charged? There could be any number of reasons.

                    It would have been better for your general arguments if you had a pocket full of statistics that listed anonymous purchasers of guns at gun show having the lowest crime rate of all. Statistics only go so far.

                    But I got HRd in your diary for saying that purple gun owners have the lowest crime rate as a group of any group.

                    I think what is going on with the CC group is that they have more respect for their guns than the general pop. The work hard to get their certification and take it seriously. They don't treat their guns like video games as a group. And I would go out on a limb and speculate their rate of forgetting, dropping, shooting by accident, etc. would be lower than the general population.

                    The general population has no respect for their guns. They are too easy.

                    Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

                    by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:09:11 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So you're going to support shall issue carry laws (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      FrankRose, IndieGuy

                      like the ones in Texas for New York, Cali, DC, etc?

                      •  My support has not wavered from my boilerplate (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        coquiero, LilithGardener

                        formed under close RkBA scrutiny.

                        1. Improper storage of a gun - loss of physical possession of the gun - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

                        2. Improper handling of a gun - gun discharged inappropriately - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

                        Limiting of gun kill speed
                        Limiting of gun ownership speed.

                        I am not advocating purple guns either.

                        Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

                        by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:46:52 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  There are those BC checks now for CCW (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      IndieGuy

                      So, until you can 'repeal or amend the 2nd amendment' (LOL), you should be encouraging people to get a CCW.

                      As you have already acknowledged the effectiveness of CCW, why aren't you coming out in support of it?

                      It doesn't look like you are so much in favor of 'gun safety' as you are for your own ego.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:27:42 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Actually I am not working on repealing the 2nd (0+ / 0-)

                        This is my baby.

                        1. Improper storage of a gun - loss of physical possession of the gun - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

                        2. Improper handling of a gun - gun discharged inappropriately - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

                        Limiting of gun kill speed
                        Limiting of gun ownership speed.

                        If you are interested in those working on the repeal of the 2nd, I suggest you contact, open carry demonstrators, photo op in restaurant parking lot gun clubs, and of course the shit hits the fan youtube producers. Their actions have done far more to repeal the 2nd, than I would ever dreamed of.

                        Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

                        by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:09:50 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Thanks for sharing your hopes and dreams. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          IndieGuy

                          However, you already know about something that actually works and works right now.

                          You just wrote an entire diary specifically citing the effectiveness of Texas CCW holders, so why aren't you supporting its expansion?

                          It's almost as if 'gun safety' means far less than being able to 'control people'.
                          In fact, it seems that way so much, I don't see any other plausible reason why you aren't encouraging people to get their CCW.

                          Let's compromise:
                          If you support & encourage people to get their CCW in Texas, I will support the addition of the phrases "kill speed", "gun ownership speed", "KEEP" and "ooopsie" to the CCW test.

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:02:07 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I do what I do, not what you believe I should do. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            That's so hard to accept I know.

                            Actually it's hard for you to believe I am for much lighter control than the Texas cc FAQ.

                            I think weeding out the weak hands would go further and cost less than any other endeavor. Keep their heads in the game and give them something to talk about.

                            I have given my ideas much thought and RkBA has given it's whole hearted efforts to make sure they never see the light of day.  So you are just toning down your mean, but you are still trying to thwart me being heard.

                            Like defeating a anonymous poster on the internet will change anything.

                            Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

                            by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:32:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course you will do as you believe (0+ / 0-)

                            And I realize that what I believe will not always correlate with what others believe.
                            For instance: I believe a person should strive for consistency.
                            I believe a person should be forthright about their intents & purposes.

                            Not everybody is going to follow those simple beliefs.
                            Not only is this fact not hard to accept, but in many cases I count on it.

                            "cost less than any other endeavor"
                            There is already an endeavor that you have written an entire diary about that has shown to cause less crime than the general public.

                            That you simultaneously concede the fact that CCW holders have lower instances of violence and you don't want to see it expanded to more people,, shows that you are not serious about wanting to 'expand gun safety'.

                            Why not just be forthright about your goal?

                            "I have given my ideas much thought and RkBA has given it's whole hearted efforts to make sure they never see the light of day."
                            Riiiiight.

                            "you are still trying to thwart me being heard."
                            That is absurd. What stretch of the imagination led you to this silly illusion of martyrdom?
                            In fact, if it was up to me you would be on TV on a daily basis.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 08:14:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Most people think my plan is law already is or (0+ / 0-)

                            should be the law. They are surprised when gun owners have fits about keeping their guns and not misfiring their guns. So I'll just stick with Plan A.

                            While waiting 60 days and being fingerprinted might be consistent with your plan it's not my idea.  But that would certainly be the Martyr Law of the Century.

                            Dream about me on TV. Thanks for sharing your hopes and dreams. They are certainly more far fetched than.

                            1. Improper storage of a gun - loss of physical possession of the gun - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

                            2. Improper handling of a gun - gun discharged inappropriately - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

                            Limiting of gun kill speed
                            Limiting of gun ownership speed.

                            Which most people think is the law right now.

                            Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

                            by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 10:04:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Most people don't think that is the law. (0+ / 0-)

                            But seeing as how you:
                            a) admit that CCW is effective in achieving your stated goals
                            b) are against expanding it.
                            and, best of all.....
                            c) think that this means that you just really stuck it to people that support gun rights.......

                            Watching you try and claim that most people think your 2 week old catch phrase is the law, isn't surprising.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 11:06:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  So something that you now acknowledge leads (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kasoru, KVoimakas, IndieGuy

                  to lower crime of all types is something you are against?

                  It would seem that 'gun safety' isn't your goal at all.

                  But we already knew that, didn't we, Glenn? ;)

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:30:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  So what special cases? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  FrankRose, IndieGuy

                  Politicians and celebrity body guards? 1%ers? Could you please expound on this?

                  And would this qualify as a pseudo-ban in your opinion?

  •  Careful with statistics (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib, ban nock

    Some of the states with what amounts to no gun control at all have extremely low crime rates.  You shouldn't try to even make a correlation--the crime rate in Texas is higher than New York, for example, but lower than California.  Both states have much tighter gun control laws than TX.  Wyoming has a much lower crime rate than any of the 3 and you know where Wyoming stands on gun regulation.  Florida, on the other hand, is an ugly place to live if you go strictly on the crime rate, not to mention South Carolina, or Alaska, for that matter.

    The real truth of the matter is that cities are more dangerous places to live than rural areas, for the most part, and it is no coincidence that urban residents support gun regulation and rural residents do not.  The urban/rural divide is insurmountable.

    The statistics from the 2006 census (take with a grain of salt)

    https://www.census.gov/...

    •  Actually I was reading a statistical analysis in (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber, coquiero

      another diary. That diary sliced out the conceal carry people in Texas. I guess Texas is one of the few states that does. And, surprise, surprise, surprise the conceal carry group is stellar in their lack of crime.

      No really.

      Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

      by 88kathy on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 10:07:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  as usual, diarist contributes nothing to the issue (3+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    IndieGuy, ban nock, Kasoru
    Hidden by:
    coquiero

    Word salad, waste of bandwidth.
    Sarah Palin's ghostwriter would be impressed.

    Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

    by Tom Seaview on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:52:01 AM PST

  •  Couple points. (9+ / 0-)

    1. You're wrong. The LEOs have more controls on them than the civilian CHL holders and yet have a higher conviction rate than CHL holders. You also have to take into account those with NFA firearms/devices, which require a LOT more paperwork.

    2. So you're saying you're happy with Texas standards for shall issue concealed carry across the country then right? I'm glad to see you would support the exact same shall issue laws in New York (including NYC), California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and the rest of the 50 states, including DC.

    3. CHL holders are a self selecting population. As a whole, they get their permit because they are law abiding. If they weren't, why wouldn't they just carry a firearm without getting a permit?

    •  What I am saying hasn't changed. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peterfallow, coquiero, LilithGardener
      1. Improper storage of a gun - loss of physical possession of the gun - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

      2. Improper handling of a gun - gun discharged inappropriately - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

      Limiting of gun kill speed
      Limiting of gun ownership speed.

      Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

      by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 09:50:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So you don't respond to any of the points (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrankRose

        I made in my comment.

        Right. Par for the course.

        •  1. LEO's probably have more hours in, and stress, (0+ / 0-)

          than civilian cc. Maybe that would explain that?????

          2.

          1. Improper storage of a gun - loss of physical possession of the gun - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

          2. Improper handling of a gun - gun discharged inappropriately - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

          Limiting of gun kill speed
          Limiting of gun ownership speed.

          3. Maybe cc are more serious about gun ownership than the general pop. which tends to take short cuts, be sloppy, and goof off.

          Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

          by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:10:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FrankRose

            1. So....NFA people?
            2. You didn't answer my question. Do you support expanding the Texas shall issue carry law across all 50 states and DC?
            3. Gen pop includes those who can't own firearms legally, which accounts for more than 50% of firearm related violent crime.

            •  I have doorstep discussions with JayHOs (0+ / 0-)

              that are more reasonable than this.

              Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

              by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:23:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Still dodging the question on #2. nice. nt (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FrankRose
                •  And my JayHO neighbor keeps asking me 'What (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  coquiero

                  happens when you die!?'

                  And I say "You don't die".

                  And she chuckles. And say's 'Yes, but what happens when you die.'

                  And I say "You don't die".

                  And she chuckles. And say's 'Yes, but what happens when you die.'

                  And we keep going like that, till we are done.  And then 6 months later, she raps on my door and asks again

                   'Yes, but what happens when you die.'

                  Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

                  by 88kathy on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:56:34 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Except you're not even giving an answer. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    FrankRose

                    My response to your response: Wú

                    •  If you don't die, and someone asks you what (0+ / 0-)

                      happens when you die. They are asking you what will happen when the impossible happens. They don't want to know what happens when you die. They want to be reassured that they will die. They won't.

                      Why is it easier to buy a gun than it is to register to vote in most states?

                      by 88kathy on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 09:51:24 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Which has nothing to do with my question. (0+ / 0-)

                        I'm not asking for reassurance about laws like the Texas carry law going national. They won't. Sadly.

                        But since you agree with the licensing, training, etc, I would expect you to support a Texas style shall issue carry law in every state and DC. Do you/would you?

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