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It began innocently enough. I was having a conversation in the laundry room with one of my neighbors down the hall. He’s a single guy in his 40s who works as a security guard.

I asked him how his new career as a real estate agent was going, and this led to him saying, “With so much uncertainty now, thanks to this administration, people aren’t buying homes.” Normally, I avoid having highly charged discussions with people whose political persuasions I don’t know, but I decided this time not to just let the comment pass. When I asked him to elaborate on what he meant by the administration‘s role in all this, he launched into a diatribe on how terrible the new health care law is. Turns out he also erroneously thinks that 47% of the American public is on “welfare” (thank you, Mitt Romney). I guess he meant food stamps, but I was in no mood to argue the point.

The part of the conversation that I found most disturbing was his feeling that if someone else was unwilling to take “personal responsibility” for his or her life, he shouldn’t be forced to pay for that person’s health care.  He says he takes care of himself and that should be enough. He claims he doesn’t eat junk food, exercises regularly and only thinks “peaceful thoughts,” and thus he doesn’t need to have health insurance and resents being forced to pay to cover other people who do eat junk food, don’t exercise regularly and presumably have less peaceful thoughts than he does. When I tried to point out that a person can’t opt out of his body and that no one can know what will happen in the future, he acted as if I were talking Martian and accused ME of being the illogical one. I said that this is the whole purpose of insurance, to minimize risk to the individual by spreading it over a large pool of people (I would have thought this wouldn’t need to be explained to a man of his age). I also pointed out that, no matter how many vegetables he might eat, that isn’t going to help him if he slips on the ice and lapses into a coma for six months, leaving him with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of unpaid medical bills. When I said that society would then be responsible to pay that bill for him (mainly through higher premiums on the rest of us), he shut down the conversation, saying that he didn’t want that kind of negative energy in his life. Apparently, he really thinks that living a “good life” will make him invulnerable to the caprices and exigencies of life on this planet. It’s all a part of this myth of “rugged individualism” that should have gone out with the advent of the transcontinental railway. (It also occurred to me that he might be a Christian Scientist, but that is just speculation on my part).

I knew that people like this existed, but I’d never actually met one before. Hey, I get it if a person doesn’t have the money to purchase health insurance and is willing to run the risk of going without it for that reason (which is where the subsidies come in). I don’t agree with that viewpoint, but I can at least respect it. But to claim I DON’T EVEN WANT health care coverage because I’ll never need it strikes me as the height of irresponsibility (ironically, from a person who a few minutes earlier was decrying the lack of personal responsibility on the part of all those lazy-assed chip-munchers).

I think this incident reveals a much broader problem that goes far beyond just the issue of health care. It’s this pervasive feeling that everybody out there is some kind of moocher and leech on society, and that everyone’s trying to get something for nothing and I don’t want to pay for it anymore. In the minds of people with this attitude (from a man who touts his Christian spirituality, yet!), the ACA is just another manifestation of everything they see as wrong with the world.

I guess my question is how many people like this guy are out there, and how many may simply choose to pay the fine rather than get themselves covered (I also wonder, if he had kids, would he apply this attitude towards them as well and refuse to get them covered?).

It kind of shows what we’re up against. Talking to this man was truly like hitting one’s head against that proverbial brick wall. How does one counter such an absurd, irrational view of the world?

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant.

6:29 PM PT: Thanks so much for the recs and the comments. I needed to be in the company of sane people again after that head-spinning experience earlier today. Plus, am listening to Nat King Cole singing Christmas music. No better tonic than that!

Originally posted to Rolandz on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 01:34 PM PST.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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  •  That's not a rant; thats informative (99+ / 0-)

    Not sure if there is any way at all to counter-argue someone like this. The propaganda from the right has been overwhelming. Odds are, though, that one of these days, that guy is going to get into a car accident or need hospitalization, and then blame it all on somebody else. Sigh.

    Life's a dance you learn as you go; sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow.

    by gloriasb on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 01:40:54 PM PST

  •  You can't fight stupid (16+ / 0-)

    And this gent is beyond reach.

    "I won't need health insurance."

    Ask him who'll win the Super Bowl so we can get some bets down.

  •  Funny thing is, the Massachusetts law (36+ / 0-)

    On which the ACA is based was promoted as a matter of forcing people to take "personal responsibility," something this guy clearly does not want to do.

    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

    by Alice in Florida on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 01:49:12 PM PST

  •  you're dealing with a major idiot, there. (37+ / 0-)

    Wow, that's a stupid guy.

    First, I work with a lot of right-wingers.  One of them bought a house earlier this year because it's the first time she's been able to afford one... and she's very low income.  And I know plenty of other people who are buying them, too -- another right-wing co-worker's mom just finished building one.  And as for other construction jobs, I just got my house re-roofed.  All anecdotal evidence, I know, but if I'm seeing this, I know they're not the only ones.  That guy's incorrect.

    Second, he's living in an incredible dream world, and it must be wonderful, but when he slips on an icy sidewalk in a couple of weeks and shatters his pelvis and wrecks his back, he's going to need health insurance.   Nobody ever thinks shit's going to happen to them... yet shit happens to people every day.  If he gets cancer or some other horrible condition, which anybody can get even if they take care of themselves, he'll be wiped out by a financial tsunami so quick it'll amaze him.  I've seen this happen to family members a lot, and the only thing that saved them from ruin was insurance.

    That guy's a huge fool.  If you can't set him straight, see if you can sell him some magic beans or something.  If stupidity like that can't be corrected, then it should be exploited...

    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

    by Front Toward Enemy on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 01:49:47 PM PST

  •  I always point out (18+ / 0-)

    That following that logic - if he shows up uninsured at the hospital after cracking his head open in a car wreck, should the hospital "let him die" since, if they spend $100K treating you, I and everyone else is picking up the tab you can't pay.

    Possible answers:
    a.  Yes, let me die.
    Then:  Unfortunately, doctors are ethically required to save your life, and you wouldn't want to live in a world where they weren't.

    b.  I'll just have to pay it back.
    Then:  What, you doing dishes in the hospital cafeteria for 15 years to make up for your accident/cost?  That's why you have a penalty/tax - to pay for your costs as part of a risk pool if you get sick or hurt and choose to be dumb and not insure yourself.

  •  If only one could sign up in advance to die of Bus (6+ / 0-)

    or brain explosion, no hospitals, just healthy then dead.

    then maybe you could go without...

    "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

    by merrywidow on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 01:53:52 PM PST

  •  Wow (26+ / 0-)

    I'm a little surprised he's in his 40s. Usually by that time people have seen enough of their same age friends experiencing unexpected health issues that they begin to realize they might not be the first immortal person.

  •  Denial. (20+ / 0-)

    Not given to introspection.

    Dry Alcoholic Syndrome.

    Lack of self-awareness.

    Sub-average intellect.

    Opposites Day.
    No, Night.
    Similars Night.
    No...

    Who knows why someone can be a walking contradiction? You really can't be introspective and also claim to be maintaining positivity in your life while blasting 47% of your fellow citizens.
    The man wouldn't know irony if it came in the form of a hot poker.

    Let him go. After a few minutes of obstinance, let him go. There ARE others that listen to reason. For some, though, a life's lesson has to drop on them or a loved one like a ton of bricks before it's noticed.

    Save your breath for more likely pursuits.

    Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by Gentle Giant on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 01:57:13 PM PST

  •  I'm just curious - does he buy auto insurance? (15+ / 0-)

    Is his house insured?

    Life insurance?

    Extended product warranties?

    And by the way, I think his auto insurance is a government mandate (at least in my state it is), and his home insurance is a bank mandate if he wants a mortgage.

  •  I'd ask if they have other forms of insurance (8+ / 0-)

    Homeowners? Renters? Life? And for the real wingnuts, ask if they have flood insurance, for which there is no private market.

    "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

    by Hayate Yagami on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 02:07:54 PM PST

    •  and flood insurance can be a problem even without (6+ / 0-)

      water. My friend's son recently got as far as sitting down at the table to close on a house recently when they said, 'oh, by the way, the teensie little brook that crosses your property now puts you in a flood zone ever since the recent 100 year event that won't be back for a while and wasn't even in your area. $5000 please.' Surprize! So that one fell apart at the eleventh hour but it turns out that's happening all over the region they said.

      We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

      by nuclear winter solstice on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 07:40:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't need fire insurance, I'm careful and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hayate Yagami

      I haven't had a fire yet.

      If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

      by Inland on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 06:26:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think if this person qualifies for Medicaid (6+ / 0-)

    expansion, he'll find if he has a costly accident he can then sign up and get help for medical expenses incurred in the past three months. I've read that other countries enroll people at "point of need" and I was surprised to see on a Medi-Cal application a question (not quoting exactly): do you need help for a medical expense in the past three months?

    The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right. -- Judge Learned Hand, May 21, 1944

    by ybruti on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 02:47:54 PM PST

  •  Well (15+ / 0-)
    I guess my question is how many people like this guy are out there
    approximately the same number of guys who voted R in the last election, I'd estimate.
  •  Another irony (14+ / 0-)

    Now he didn't say this, but I'll bet he's one of those people who mocks Michelle Obama for trying to get kids to eat well and exercise and applauds Sarah Palin for scarfing down her giant soda in defiance of all those government-types like Bloomberg who want to improve the health of the country.

  •  the libertarian loonies NEVER understood (20+ / 0-)

    what "insurance" is . . . . .

    People who have insurance PAY FOR IT.  Whether it is unemployment insurance or health insurance or Social Security (retirement insurance) or life insurance or car insurance.

    The libertarian loonies seem unable to grasp that simple concept.

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 03:19:30 PM PST

    •  You actually makes the point he is denying (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lexalou, JerryNA, Tonedevil, JVolvo, SuWho

        If he is working - he is already paying for unemployment insurance - which I'm guessing he also hates to pay.    One wonders if he would actually sign up for Unemployment if he was fired from job.  

      •  Of course he would. (10+ / 0-)

        And he will collect Social Security and use Medicare when he is older.

        Never acknowledging that he would be screwed without them. Never seeing the connection between paying into those systems and paying for private insurance now. Never once.

        •  Remember when everyone invested their taxcuts? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo, SuWho

          Remember how your con-servative friends and relatives cried about how Social Security taxes prevented people from investing in the stock market and making much higher returns?   And remember how everyone, particularly all those principled, disciplined con-servatives, invested all of their Bush tax cut and the Obama middle class tax cut and the Obama Social Security tax cut and are making so much money in the stock market that they don't need Social Security any more?  Remember that?  No, I don't either.

          •  Actually... (0+ / 0-)

            ...I do know a number of people who did exactly that.  Market was up some ridiculous amount this last year.

          •  It's Yer Money!! Great point con-dy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SuWho

            And for those that did (n't) invest it how did they feel about that "Take Charge of Your Retirement" spin when the market went to shit in 2008?  W, Rush and Hannity never said anything about 30% LOSSES.

            If you asked them THEN, they would probably be pissed it was brought up - because they were scared for their future.  

            Welcome to the world of the working poor, assholes   :o)

            Retired Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able). Sarcasm for - and derision of - True Believers / Entitlement "Reformers" / NSA cheerleaders (yes, significant overlap) still available 24/7, you betcha!

            by JVolvo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 07:35:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  It seems to me that (11+ / 0-)

    Republicans embrace the current conservative ideology because it gives them an excuse for being vile, disgusting people. They don't have to look in the mirror and see themselves as long as they can attribute their inhumanity to some idea that anyone less fortunate is a worthless layabout sucking the taxpayer teat.

    As for this guy, whatever happens to him, he deserves.  If he makes it through life without insurance and dies at age 100 in his sleep, good for him.  If not, he deserves being that too.

    You can't argue with these people.  Facts that rub their faces in reality and highlight their lack of humanity mean nothing to them.  I'm sure there's some diagnosis for this condition but it's probably just a fancy name for Sack of Excrement.  

    The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis. - Dante Alighieri

    by Persiflage on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 05:19:25 PM PST

    •  Interesting point (11+ / 0-)

      I kept saying to him, well suppose such-and-such happens, and he kept replying, well, suppose it DOESN'T happen? And he saw that as a valid argument.

      It's almost as if he'd never grasped the concept of insurance before and apparently never will.

      Like I said earlier: frustrating!

      •  If it doesn't happen, then yay! (13+ / 0-)

        Insurance is that odd purchase that you never want to use.

        Suppose you spend thousands of dollars on insurance over your life, and one day you need it. Then yay! You're covered.

        But suppose you never need. Then boo! you're out thousands of dollars - but wait: that means you're healthy. Yay! A thousand yays!

        Never using your insurance means you have your health, which is worth a lot more than money. So buying insurance can never be wholly bad, because either you need it, or you don't, and not needing it is freaking awesome!

        •  Yea (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, JVolvo

          I hope I can get through life without ever having to use my auto or homeowners insurance. That's far preferable to having to use it just because I paid for it!

        •  we spent $70,000 over the years buying health ins (8+ / 0-)

          when we ran our own business. Finally we just couldn't support it and came to a breaking point where the deductible and premiums were all so big that we might just as well bank it and get interest and take our chances because we were going to be broke either way. I was so mad as it seemed as if we'd spent what could have been a large chunk of house payment on "nothing" over the years, even though I understood the concept- which was why we suffered to buy insurance 'til it about killed us.
              So we went naked.
          Then when 2008 finally sucked the life out of our business too, hubby went back to work for the man. That got us insurance, and just in the nick of time, as we alternated health crises for a year and managed to get billed way more than $150,000 worth of stuff between the two of us. What a blessing the insurance was and a bigger one was that the company covered the first $2000 and the last $6500 of the $10,000 deductible as a benefit. WOnderful.
               I wish there was some way of sitting down over coffee with that guy and spreading the paperwork out to show him. It fills a giant shoebox. Maybe the visuals would jolt him into asking 'how can I avoid that?' and then someone can tell him here just sign up for medicare for all. Yeah, I'm a dreamer and an idealist too, but now that I've seen the numbers, I'll never go naked again.
               But just like CharlieHipHop above, it really pisses me off to pay premiums that get spent on advertising to get more people to pay premiums. The sheer number and variation of the commercials for Geico, Progressive, Need-cash-Now, and what's in your wallet must really be some kind of employment jobs program for that we can't afford to shut down or something... allthose writers, actors, artists and cameramen- what will they do if they lose their jobs? Got Medicaid?
               This system is tangled so tight it is a Gordian knot that must be sliced clean through and replaced by not-for-profit health care (not health insurance) for all. A human right.

          We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

          by nuclear winter solstice on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 08:03:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  My hubby hires school bus drivers all the time who (3+ / 0-)

            say they would work without a salary, but would take the job just because the school pays their health insurance. Many of these people are small business owners or independent farmers  who would shut up their shop for an hour and a half each morning and afternoon while they deliver children to their appointed places. Of course, they are paid a salary, but their reason for seeking a second job is "for the insurance."

  •  Republicans just follow Julius Ceaser (12+ / 0-)

    philosophy....in politics, divide and conquer.  Get poor people to blame other poor people and middle class people to blame other middle class people...to deflect away from the aristocrats.  

    It's a great psychological trick...blame the teacher pension or welfare mom for your poor prospects...not the corporations/1% in any way what-so-ever...even though there seems to be a huge sucking sound coming from their direction.

    It's a marketing ploy that works.

    There's room at the top, they're telling you still, but first you must learn how to smile as you kill. -J Lennon

    by noelcor on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 05:42:25 PM PST

  •  Major failure--at thinking peaceful thoughts (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz, lexalou, JVolvo

    He apparently has spent a lot of time pondering how evil those irresponsible insurance-obtainers are.

    He's got a huge chink in his armor if he's counting on his stock of peaceful thoughts saving him from illness.

  •  Actually, slipping on the ice is the least of his (8+ / 0-)

    problems.
    I don't think I would have used that, though I know you were on the spot. You see, he's so into himself, and sure of himself, he probably thinks slipping on the ice is the last thing that would ever happen to him.
    But what about if he is driving along and some A-hole runs a red light? What if he sees some perp (he's a security guard after all) and the guys friends jump him and beat him into a coma. Or what if he's just minding his own business and something happens to put him out of work for 6 months? How about those ER bills and being out of work - who's going to pay?
    There are plenty of people who have had accidents that they never foresaw - happens all the time. And if they have no health insurance, they can end up in bankruptcy.
    You might also tell him (if you do see him again) that many of the people on food stamps and welfare are hard working people working for WalMart and McDonalds and that HE is subsidizing those companies if he shops or eats there. No one who works full time should have to subsist on food stamps.
    OK, so I realize you'll probably never get to talk to the guy again. But attitudes like his really piss me off - so selfish and ignorant.
    Sigh.

    Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

    by MA Liberal on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 06:26:29 PM PST

    •  All excellent hypotheticals and points (7+ / 0-)

      I guess I'm just amazed that someone can get all the way to his 40s and not have run them through his own mind at this point.

      It's a fail on two levels. He's screwing himself over as well as the greater society.

      I did point out that most of the people on food stamps are WORKING. Not sure it got through.

    •  well I'm fairly progressive but I can remember the (6+ / 0-)

      day a couple years ago when I said to someone "what do you mean? How do you have food stamps- you have a job!"  I didn't begrudge them to her at all,
      it was simply completely news-to-me that people could legally be paid so little that they could qualify for assistance while working all the time like she did.    I've been telling everyone who will listen all about that ever since. So there is the chance that he just hasn't got to that idea yet...Let's hope he doesn't get hurt too bad when he hits the ground after something bursts his bubble.

      We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

      by nuclear winter solstice on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 08:10:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This guy is actually pretty easy. (8+ / 0-)

    First, I always start with;'do you vote?' then proceed from there. Who did you vote for, may I ask? Don't need health care/insurance, so you are very healthy, but what if? Remember never try to explain anything, just continue to ask questions. People love to talk and loners especially. You will find that his income is such that he is eligible for food stamps and medicaid. Just keep asking questions.

    •  I began to suspect after awhile (7+ / 0-)

      that he thinks people are sick only because they make themselves sick through the choices they make, and that if he just continues making the right ones, he'll never need health care. That's what made me suspect he might be a Christian Scientist or something on that order. He wasn't just making economic arguments.

      Still, I don't know how that eliminates having an accident of some sort. But, then again, it might all come down to the positive thinking thing.

      •  There is some truth to his rant (6+ / 0-)

        I also resent paying (through my taxes, or Medicare taxes, or health insurance premiums) for the consequences of people drinking and driving, or eating and drinking so much that they're obese and their kidneys fail so they're on dialysis at age 30, or doing all sorts of illegal drugs. The serious health care costs are not from accidents; they are from chronic diseases, which do have a significant link to behavioral choices.

        So I share this guy's resentment. But I reach a different conclusion -- because I don't believe that people's decisions happen in a vaccuum. So yes, I want universal health coverage. But I also want sidewalks, bike paths, safe neighborhoods, subsidized gym memberships, Phys Ed returned to schools, community gardens and farmers markets with affordable vegetables in every neighborhood. And universal prenatal care, so every baby gets a good start in life, and readily available birth control so every woman can pursue her dreams, and every baby is a wanted baby.

        •  Yes (3+ / 0-)

          I concede that he did make some good points, but only in an ideal world would that work. His solution  - not buying into the system as a form of protest - is just so untenable both to himself and society as a whole.

          •  As someone smarter than me has said: Libertarians (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aquarius40

            can sound really smart...for the first 2 sentences.  Then it goes to shit.  

            Legalize marijuana. Get out of Iraq/Afghanistan.  Yes!
            --- Followed By ---
            No food safety inspections.  No patient protection from shitty doctor or exploding toaster.  Any biz can discriminate against any person.  No water or air quality regulations.  WTF?!?
            It's a fantasy world where no bad things happen to them.  Only to the deserving (lazy, poor, unhealthy, etc), but since Lib Guy is smart and on the lookout, he's on a golden path.

            Similar to religious magical thinking.  Yikes.  Real World Fail.

            Retired Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able). Sarcasm for - and derision of - True Believers / Entitlement "Reformers" / NSA cheerleaders (yes, significant overlap) still available 24/7, you betcha!

            by JVolvo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 07:50:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's just Blame the Victim (3+ / 0-)

        Standard defensive psychological strategy.

      •  The Christian Scientist angle is interesting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil

        There's a lot of CS, fundies, and other groups that swear prayer and being prayed for will heal everything.  I recently read a study that found people who are either sick or injured and are prayed for, suffer from performance anxiety if they are not recovering.  That tends to make them sicker.

        Don't be fooled by appearances. In Hawaii, some of the most powerful people look like bums and stuntmen. --- Matt King

        by hobie1616 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 08:31:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Anger and resentment covers up fear. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo

        He sounds economically precarious. That's scary. Scared people strike out, freeze, or flee. And magical thinking is one major mental and emotional version of the freeze or flee. Thanks for reaching out to him. As some dude Buddha said, when we act we should be open to outcome, not vested in a certain result. That keeps us willing to reach out. And keeps us san(er).

        When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

        by CoyoteMarti on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 10:40:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The more I've thought about this today (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CoyoteMarti, JVolvo

          the more I think you may be right.

          I always naively assume that people who are struggling with acquiring health care coverage would embrace the ACA rather than attack Obama for trying to help.

          But I guess people are often more complex than we like to believe.

          •  I think progressives often argue from (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JVolvo

            intellect/facts and miss the emotion that ultimately motivates all of us. This is why Pres Clinton can be such a powerful story-teller speaker, and why Campaign Obama is usually stronger than Governing Obama.  Or think of the two Pres Roosevelts. All were able to put emotion behind the policy. Repub message gurus understand this all too well, it's just so very sad and infuriating and profoundly damaging that the emotion they use is fear. Fear is also at the base of much fundamentalist thinking and movements.  

            When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

            by CoyoteMarti on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 11:03:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You Win The Internet! Great wisdom at 1 am (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CoyoteMarti

              What's your secret?   :o)

              Long before Luntz, RePugs have yanked people around by their emotions.  Clinton even said too often we show up with a list and, tangentially, folks want strong and wrong over weak and right.

              When we combine dry facts, 8-point lists and mild delivery to combat "They Are Ruining America!!1" we almost always lose.  Campaign Obama brought great energy to the cause.

              Retired Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able). Sarcasm for - and derision of - True Believers / Entitlement "Reformers" / NSA cheerleaders (yes, significant overlap) still available 24/7, you betcha!

              by JVolvo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 07:57:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  My secret? Not enough sleep. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JVolvo, starduster

                Seriously, helps to be 64 and a student in political and social history. Started with my summer of 1967 freshman required reading list for a small Midwest college which included The Autobiography of Malcolm X, and The True Believers: Thoughts On The Nature Of Mass Movements, a 1951 social psychology book by Eric Hoffer. Also Adam Smith's economics pieces. I have also recently been reading The Fundamentalist Mind: How Polarized Thinking Imperils Us All by Stephen Larsen. Thinking of doing a review here on DKos, as it discusses these very weaknesses of the Left we touched on here.

                When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

                by CoyoteMarti on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 11:37:40 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Please do that review! We would benefit from (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Alex Budarin

                  your perspective, the discussion and the wisdom of those that have put serious thought into the dynamic.  We don't have to reinvent the wheel!

                  Retired Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able). Sarcasm for - and derision of - True Believers / Entitlement "Reformers" / NSA cheerleaders (yes, significant overlap) still available 24/7, you betcha!

                  by JVolvo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 12:04:45 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Something tells me that this guy has very few (2+ / 0-)

      relationships with a significant other, no matter what sex.  

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 07:39:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Great point. Explaining is a one-way street. (0+ / 0-)

      Questions work better.

      Here, let me tell you why that is...

      (Charlie Brown Teacher Bla Bla Blah)

      :o)

      Retired Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able). Sarcasm for - and derision of - True Believers / Entitlement "Reformers" / NSA cheerleaders (yes, significant overlap) still available 24/7, you betcha!

      by JVolvo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 07:41:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We have a bagger at work (14+ / 0-)

    This guy hit all of the right wing attack points, quoting everybody from Rush Limbaugh to WorldNutDaily and Stormfront. He has/had one of those crappy "insurance" policies that are supposed to be for "catastrophic care". In fact, last year I went in for a colonoscopy and knowing that he had just had the procedure and erroneously thinking he was on our group plan, I asked about his out of pocket expenses and he told me that he "wrote two checks for about $700 each". WTF! I can't afford that! Damn! Well, I got my bill and the portion my group plan didn't cover was about $190. That's it. Now I'm no math whiz but that sounds like a difference of about 1210 bucks to me!

    Recently his wife had a child. I feel very sorry for him because the baby was born without the ability to breathe and she suffered some amount of brain damage, required a feeding tube and extensive hospitalization and treatment and will require long term care. Our group plan would have covered that, minus about a $2,000 deductible but I don't think his cheap, "catastrophic care" policy will even touch Ob/Gyn and I'm wondering how much this has cost him out of pocket. I haven't had the heart to ask him but he's been a whole lot quieter about the evils of Obamacare lately. On the one hand I feel very bad for him while simultaneously I'm thinking that this is some kind of eloquent demonstration to a guy who believed buying real health insurance was for chumps and that a single payer plan would be tantamount to treason.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 06:42:13 PM PST

  •  It's irresponsibility masquerading as thrift (12+ / 0-)

    "I'm not the irresponsible one, I just refuse to think of what will happen when all of you have to pay for my hospitalization."

    He believes that everyone else is a grifter in order to justify his constant and low-level grift.

    I think this kind of person is actually rare.  But they are dangerous, because they believe everyone else is as much of a cheater (or more so!) than they are.

    This is because their sense of connection to others is stunted, and they cannot believe that empathy is something most of us really have.

    For those of you who prefer Bartlett to Obama, re-watch the West Wing. For those who prefer Clinton, re-watch old news videos.

    by Ptolemy on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 06:43:49 PM PST

  •  What makes me fume... (14+ / 0-)

    I have a good friend, a computer tech, who is very right wing and he wanted to rant about how Obama outright lied to everyone about getting insurance dropped (like he KNEW in 2010 that the insurance companies would be such greedy assholes) I had to really fight back my reply..he hasn't had work in a couple of years because he worked under the table for 15 yrs or more and didn't have verifiable job records. Here he is not paying any taxes, complaining loudly about tax rates AND has a mild heart attack that I AND EVERY OTHER TAXPAYER in MA paid for since he has MEDICAID!!! The serious lack of irony in this man is astounding and he will never see it or feel responsible for his lack of participation in a functioning society.

    •  My brother-in-law (9+ / 0-)

      had somewhat the same attitude about "people who don't contribute" getting help. At the time he was out of work. It took all my self-control for me not to say, "Oh you mean people like you?"

      You hear about crazy, but it's rarer than you think. -Jon Stewart 1/10/2011

      Help Me Find Mister Boots

      by lcork on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 06:56:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  yea, really frustrating (0+ / 0-)

        especially with family members. My daughter is married to a great guy but he's turned her into a libertarian conspiracy theorist and it's maddening! She is having her second child any day now and because of the ACA there are a few changes to the current program in MA and now she's all up in arms saying they will just have to refuse insurance and pay the fines....she's got the mostly subsidized Commonwealth Care now and with 2 kids and one income they will definitely qualify for subsides but they still insist it won't work for them!

  •  He's also wrong about real estate (6+ / 0-)

    If "people aren't buying houses" they're not buying from him, they're buying from someone else. Prices and sales are up year over year nation wide.

    So he's a guy who thinks his so-called "positive" outlook will somehow magically keep him healthy and sell houses for him. Good luck with that, on both counts.

    You hear about crazy, but it's rarer than you think. -Jon Stewart 1/10/2011

    Help Me Find Mister Boots

    by lcork on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 06:54:55 PM PST

  •  Seems to me that pointing out since he does (8+ / 0-)

    Real Estate that trying to buy a home or property and the potential buyer tells the Bank/Loan Company they are not getting Home Owners Insurance is a very quick way to kill getting any loan,so that pretty much makes getting Insurance to buy Real Estate a mandatory thing.

  •  I don't want anti-terrorism insurance. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Naniboujou, Tonedevil, JVolvo

    I don't need anti-terrorism insurance.

    Nonetheless, I'm stuck both paying for, and enduring the outrage of, the government's implementation of both.

    Because that is how civilization works.

    To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

    by UntimelyRippd on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 07:08:37 PM PST

  •  I hear the same kind of bitchin and moanin (6+ / 0-)

    all the time.  He will buy it, because he likes to bitch and moan.  Sometimes you just have to let them do their thing and move on and wear brown to blend.  It is really not worth the effort to confront folks like this other than to tell them that you have purchased it and saved a friggin bundle.  On an off the cuff basis, tell them that you do not want to be a burden because you have too much respect for yourself.  That will piss him off for sure, but he will be forced to rethink his position.  Then move on and talk about football or the weather and laugh your ass off to yourself.  You win dude!  and so will he, when he signs up, which he will.

  •  Another (sad) story: (15+ / 0-)

    I had a guy doing roof repairs at my home.  It was at the time the ACA was being debated.  He said he didn't have health insurance - he was one of only two people working at his small business but he wasn't the owner.  He said he didn't need insurance since he was a Christian and Jesus would take care of him.  The roof repair didn't work and in fact made the leak worse.  Instead of affecting only one wall with water damage inside, the rain had now been diverted to leak onto three inside walls.  When we called back to get them to come out again, they told us that our guy fell off a roof and broke his leg in 5 places.  He was permanently disabled.  His company was financially responsible since it was on the job.  The company went bankrupt.  They never made good on the "repair" of my roof despite the "guarantee".  Nobody came out well in this saga.  I am not impressed with Jesus.  You know what they say:  Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel.  

    I was wise enough to never grow up while fooling most people into believing I had. - Margaret Mead

    by fayea on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 07:29:00 PM PST

  •  It sounds like a sour grapes issue (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz, Tonedevil, JVolvo

    He's obviously listening to conservatives, and he keeps hearing that health care is bad bad bad and so now that it is law and will stay law, he's adamant about not participating.

    Flip it around and have this health care law implemented by Republicans and thus supported by conservative media and I bet his reaction would be a complete 180.

  •  No... (4+ / 0-)
    But to claim I DON’T EVEN WANT health care coverage because I’ll never need it strikes me as the height of irresponsibility
    It's the height of stupidity.  You can cure (or ameliorate) irresponsibility.  I've been there myself.  What you can not cure, regardless of whether you have a bronze, gold, or platinum health insurance policy is:

    STUPID

    There is no deductible that will cover STUPID.

    It will not get easier before it gets harder. But the harder it gets, the easier it will be.

    by Richard Cranium on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 07:40:45 PM PST

  •  When they provide evidence they've said similar (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, JVolvo

    about police, fire departments - even out military, since they provide protection to these evil bad people, too - I'll believe it isn't pure bullshit.

  •  People who aren't doctors AND financial geniuses (6+ / 0-)

    really have no basis to say they don't need insurance.  What they are doing is using the past (I've never been really sick) to predict the future (I'll never be really sick), and as any doctor or financial advisor will tell you, past performance doesn't predict future returns.

    On top of it, Mr. Exercise Regularly can still get hit by a car.  Or shot by a robber.  Or be GIVEN a contagious disease.

    If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

    by Inland on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 08:09:56 PM PST

  •  Laundry Room Man is clueless. (9+ / 0-)

    When I was just 17, I went to my high school by bus as I did every day. It was a nasty snowy day.  As I took the stairs to my locker in the basement  in the Senior Social Room (it had a couple of ratty couches and chairs but only seniors could use it so it was a Big Deal), I hit a wet patch on the slick waterproof-painted steps. As part of our uniform we wore saddle shoes and mine had rubber soles.  Rubbers soles plus wet patch is a recipe for disaster.  I was on the halfway landing, and I slipped. I fell down the stairs, hitting every last one of them. My breath was knocked out of me and I hurt a lot. Finally I was able to yell for help and a friend fund me and took me to the nurse. By the time I climbed the two flights to rach her office, I had a very swollen saucer-sized bruise  and my back felt like I'd been run over by a truck.  Nurse gave me a note for gym; gym teacher (one of only two teachers I believe should b in hell, of hell exists) forced me to lift my skirts up so she could decide if my injuries were severe enough to clear me from gymnastics (!).

    It took a bit to peruade my Mom that I was in very bad pain. She's had a slipped disc years before and anything less was considered  an excuse to miss school.  FOur days later I finally saw a doctor.  Where I learned that thanks to the nasty fall and  the scoliosis I's
     been born with,  one hip was a 1 1/2 inch higher than the other, which explained the screaming agony in my back and the limp I had developed. I wore a back brace through half of senior year.  I needed physical therapy/

    In freshman year in college, three weeks into the first quarter of field hockey, one of my incompetent classmates hit me in the back with a hockey stick.  Back to the doctor again, and a note that put me permanently in swim class (tot his day, the only vaguely athletic things I can do comfortably are swimming, biking, and belly dancing).

    So it can happen to anyone, even a reasonably hea;thy 17 year old girl. ANd that accident left me with permanent problems.  Luckily Dad had health insurance.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 08:50:42 PM PST

  •  you had me until this point: (0+ / 0-)
    Hey, I get it if a person doesn’t have the money to purchase health insurance and is willing to run the risk of going without it for that reason (which is where the subsidies come in). I don’t agree with that viewpoint,
    not buying insurance because you have no money for it is not a 'viewpoint,' and to say that you don't agree with this option means that you think those who cannot afford it should be buying it anyway?  with what?

    those two sentences not only make no sense, but kept me from reading on

    signed,
    one who has insurance as of Dec. 1st, but went without for most of the last decade.

    "Don't Bet Against Us" - President Barack Obama

    by MRA NY on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 08:54:53 PM PST

  •  Theres a way to win (14+ / 0-)

    and Ive gotten really good at it, but I honestly feel a bit guilty for using it. This is all true by the way.

    I ask them what plans they would have for people with pre-existing conditions, or those who were already approved for subsidies if the law were repealed. Invariably, someone attacks me for this, usually making claims that ive had kool-aid or something, and ask why I would support such an awful thing?

    So then I point out that I was born with a heart valve disorder, which keeps me from buying insurance at any price, and that in january I'll finally be able to get insurance, and with any luck not die before I'm 30.

    If you've ever wanted to see an attack screech to a dead stop in an instant, that usually does it. I intentionally don't mention that it applies to me when first asking about it.

    Because then they've just insulted someone in their mid-20s whod really rather not die of a heart problem at that age, while also understanding that my reason is totally justifiable.

    This is what I'm going for. And it works. Should I feel bad about it? Im not lying (though I exaggerate a bit on how worried I am. I'm bizarrely optimistic about my health problems.) it just seems somehow... manipulative.

    But it works.

    "Y'know... My Emolga really wants to shock your Dedenne." "...What?"

    by kamrom on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 08:56:57 PM PST

    •  Don't feel bad (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ybruti, mmacdDE, JVolvo

      Optimism is wonderful, but if something (Powers forfend) should happen, you're covered as of January first.

      Like one poster said above, trust in Allah, but tie up your camel.

      I was born with an arrhythmia.  It's really not a big deal, I take my (very cheap, effective, generic) pill twice a day and I'm fine.  My doctor confirms I'm fine yearly and assures me that there's no barrier to living to a ripe old age.

      However, it still keeps me from buying insurance, including insurance for stuff like breaking a leg or getting a sinus infection.  The ACA is, in these cases, a really BFD.

      (-6.38, -7.03) Moderate left, moderate libertarian

      by Lonely Liberal in PA on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 06:00:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  all that does... (0+ / 0-)

      is prove that the insurance industry is fucked up~!  of course you deserve access to health CARE... if not for the insurance industry you would have had it all along...

  •  He's listening to motivational stuff (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    True North, Tonedevil, JVolvo, Aquarius40

    He's listening regularly to materials that tell him he creates his own destiny and he should allow only positivity into his field of awareness.  (I.e. stuff that doesn't challenge the speaker and doesn't make him question his own ideas, either -- the only one allowed to do that is the motivational speaker.)

    Next time you get a chance, ask him with friendly curiosity who he's listening to.

    ------
    Ideology is when you think you know the answers before you know the questions.
    It infests hollow spaces where intelligence has died.

    by Alden on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 09:02:14 PM PST

  •  They are legion (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, JVolvo

    My Dad does the same thing about people out of work.  It's their own fault.  He worked 3 jobs to pay the bills!

    They overestimate (by a lot) their successes and overestimate (by a lot) how their successes were the consequence of their own brilliant choices and efforts in life.

    You don't hear them talk about their failures or vulnerabilities.  That's a buzz kill to talk about those things!

    Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

    by yet another liberal on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 09:10:38 PM PST

    •  I think there's a lot of that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattc129, Tonedevil, JVolvo

      I know many public school teachers who, even though every dime they've ever made and every bit of health care they've ever used have come from taxpayer money, have no trouble whining about taxes, the size of government and the evil of unions.

      Cognitive dissonance at its best.

      •  My favorite (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, JVolvo

        Was a teabagger friend from my old job.  He would rant about taxes and social security.

        Well, he was in the Navy and got his job training there and that's why he had a good work prospects being trained in electronics (gee, wonder where that money came from).

        But at some point he told me about his brother (lazy according to my friend) who survived on social security.

        Anyway, if it wasn't for social security, then I guess my friend would have had to move back to Kansas and give up his career to take care of family.  Careful what you wish for.

        Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

        by yet another liberal on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 09:23:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Same Here (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rolandz

        I live in a community where the major employer is the federal government. There's three Navy facilities employing thousands of civilain workers.

        I know people who have worked for the federal government all their lives who also are ex military who receive military retirement and benefits and also civilian federal retirement benefits. They've NEVER been without health coverage. They buy the Fox News propaganda 100%, are anti-government, oppose anything on the social safety net, etc. etc.

        They have a complete disconnect between their lifelong career in government, their total dependence on the taxpayer and their "conservative" views.

        They rationalize that the defense establishment and the military is "different".

  •  Wow (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, buffie

    Completely, utterly selfish AND a total moron.  He's the total package.  A perfect Republican.

  •  You missed your chance (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    In your position, after that crack about "not needing negative energy," I hope I would have the stones to reply something like

    You're a fucking idiot and a sociopath and a waste of air, water & nutrients--how could anyone possibly give you any more "negative energy" than that?
    And walk away.

    The greatest trick the GOP ever played was convincing the devil they had a soul to sell.

    by Uncle Cosmo on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 09:19:27 PM PST

  •  Thanks, Rolandz... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    40 year old, eh? Just old enough to get the full force of a Raygunz education, don't need no stinkin' Civics class, Libertarianism run amok on talk radio and Faux propoganda. And a low wage worker to boot....
     No wonder our country is a mess..

    What do we want? Universal health care! When do we want it? Now!

    by cagernant on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 09:42:26 PM PST

  •  as long as you're not smoker you can do (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    whatever you want with your health and lifestyle and others who take care of their health will have to pay more and subsidize your insurance
    there is no incentive to try and be healthy in fact if you have a high deductible you won't ever use your health insurance year after year

    •  Wait a second (0+ / 0-)

      There is an inherent incentive to try to be healthy.  And if you never use it (eventually you will), isn't that cause to be thankful?  Is everything of worth measured in dollars?

      Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

      by yet another liberal on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 09:54:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What is it? (0+ / 0-)
        inherent incentive to try to be healthy
        •  Health (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          walk2live

          It's something that money can't buy.

          If you were born in good health, be grateful.

          Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

          by yet another liberal on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 10:47:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not talking about being born (0+ / 0-)

            I'm talking about lifestyle which accounts for at least 80%. What is the incentive in this legislation for people to take care of their health?

            And obviously being born healthy isn't an incentive to stay healthy or else almost everyone would be healthy

            •  Can I follow you around (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Subterranean

              and criticize every single bad lifestyle choice you make that might impact my premiums?

              No?  What's that, because you don't have any?  So let me follow you around and we'll see.  Give me a day and I'll have a list for you.

              People are, at heart, just people.  Fallible, amusingly inconsistent, often foolish, and frequently amusing.  Overuse of the nanny state stick and/or carrot doesn't particularly thrill them.

              (-6.38, -7.03) Moderate left, moderate libertarian

              by Lonely Liberal in PA on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 06:07:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Fine. Then the people who take care of (0+ / 0-)

                themselves should get a break. And people should get an incentive to take care of themselves.

                People are, at heart, just people.
                •  I believe they still do... (0+ / 0-)

                  While you can't be denied coverage due to preexisting conditions and such... coverage will still cost a bit more (at least that's my understanding - there are simply limits on how much they can charge). Or, you can still get discounts for being healthy.

                  Aside from that, the incentive for being healthy is simply "being healthy". Sure, it's not in this legislation, but it's a far bigger motivator than some amount of $/month. Your health is with you 24/7. The amount you pay for health insurance is generally not going to make people change behaviors. e.g. How many people quit smoking to save a few bucks on their health insurance? People quit smoking because they know it's bad for them.

                  Freedom isn't free. That's why we pay taxes.

                  by walk2live on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 11:19:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Many people do take care of themselves (0+ / 0-)

                  and get sick anyways.  I don't know where that 80% figure came from, but it's simply not true for many conditions.  Genetics play a large role, and so does environment.

                  But you know what?  I don't care.  It's enough that a person suffers bad health as punishment for their "lifestyle".  

                  "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

                  by Subterranean on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 01:50:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  That's terrible reasoning. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JVolvo, Subterranean

              Of course being healthy is an incentive to stay healthy. Being healthy is a lot more pleasant than being unhealthy. It's just that other aspects of human psychology also impact people's decision-making. You can't just jump from the observation that people are unhealthy to saying that therefore that's not an incentive.

              For example, lifestyle-related causes of poor health tend to be disconnected from the effects, both in time and place. So people don't consciously connect them together until after the fact. (I also question the 80% figure you just made up; genetics is a huge factor, among other things.)

              Furthermore, even if it were true that 80% of bad health were caused by lifestyle, how does that mean that it's the individual's fault? Our society is structurally set up in ways that strongly encourage poor lifestyle choices. For example, many of our cities are designed in ways that make them unwalkable, and so people drive everywhere. Fast food is marketed to people via multi-million dollar ad campaigns (and those campaigns are very effective in manipulating people's behavior). Access to health and nutrition education is scant at best, and we mostly tend to spend our resources on treating the effects of lifestyle diseases rather than attempting to address their causes before they happen.

              We are all morally responsible for lifestyle related health problems because we all collectively have created a society that efficiently generates those problems. It's not every man or woman for himself or herself.

              Furthermore, I don't believe in the right-wing meme that "incentives" are what drive most human behavior. People are not robots that respond to simple stimuli. Instead, people are human beings with complex feelings, motivations, and faults. It's wrong to blame people for outcomes that are the result of their failing because they are human.

              When you're talking about the 1 person in a million who dies because he chose to go do something super risky like BASE jumping or something, then you can blame that person for his choices. When you're talking about 80% of the population, then you have to look at society's responsibility, because clearly you no longer have individual anomalies but rather a clear pattern of society failing people.

              •  I didn't just make it up (0+ / 0-)

                That is a figure quoted by the American Cancer Society on the causes of cancer. As one of the worst diseases it is certainly not exceptional in fact it is probably lower than other chronic diseases.

                Yes they're disconnected which is the argument to encourage people to adopt them with the only thing that can get people's attention - their premium

                For example, lifestyle-related causes of poor health tend to be disconnected from the effects, both in time and place. So people don't consciously connect them together until after the fact. (I also question the 80% figure you just made up; genetics is a huge factor, among other things.)
                They managed to exclude smoking, the only non-permissible lifestyle behavior.

                All this is is rationalization for bad behavior. Just like good drivers,older drivers, get lower insurance so should healthier people.

                •  Again, even granting your 80% figure... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Subterranean

                  I don't accept that this is a "rationalization" for bad behavior. I don't believe that lifestyle choices that lead to poor health necessarily constitute "bad behavior". That term implies moral judgement that I don't believe is appropriate, given the structural issues I mentioned. It also implies that the fault is individual and private, when it is in fact societal and public.

                  Bad health lifestyle behaviors are just behaviors, not "bad" behaviors. They are influenced by a wide range of factors beyond just people's conscious choices. It's wrong to blame people for reacting a certain way when faced with factors that are actively set up to push human beings towards those choices.

                  I also don't believe that health insurance premiums (or vehicle insurance premiums, for that matter) do very much at all to affect people's behavior, except perhaps in a very limited way. For the same reason that people discount the negative consequences of their behaviors, they ALSO discount the positive consequences (like lower premiums). We already had an insurance regime, pre-ACA, in which people were strongly punished for their negative lifestyle choices, and in case you didn't notice those same "choices" exploded in frequency during the same time period. The idea of manipulating people's behavior via insurance premiums is a failed right wing idea. These issues like smoking or obesity are public health issues, not individual moral issues, and should be addressed that way (and addressing them that way is proven to be more effective than just exhorting people to change their lifestyles).

                  Finally, I have a big problem with this line of reasoning you're pursuing because it's frequently used to discount the problems faced by people who really, truly do have health problems through no fault of their own. Republicans would take your 80% figure and look at that as a reason why NO ONE should get assistance with paying for cancer treatment, because "only" 20% have it through no fault of their own. People with diagnosed genetic diseases (like myself) have faced the same discrimination in the individual insurance marketplace as people with "lifestyle" diseases like Type 2 diabetes. If given the choice, corporations will not apply any morality to how they treat people beyond just the cost to their bottom line.

                •  That's a very misleading figure (0+ / 0-)

                  Even if it's true that 80% of cancer is due to "lifestyle" choices, it's NOT true for individuals.  Some people are genetically prone to cancer, some have jobs that heighten their risk, some even live in neighborhoods with pollutants that increase the risk for cancer.  Conversely, some people are "protected" against some forms of cancer by good genes.  We've all seen the stories of 90 year olds who smoked their entire lives.  That holds true for more than just smoking tobacco.  

                  The fact is that we don't understand the complexities of cause and effect regarding cancer well enough to assign blame.  The ACA should be ashamed for publishing that 80% nonsense, because now people are going to walk around thinking that for anyone who has cancer, it's an 80% chance that it's that person's fault.  Which is not only fucking stupid, but also cruel.

                  "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

                  by Subterranean on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 01:57:36 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Never met one? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    There are plenty of people here who endorse the notion that they should not be responsible for the decisions of others- eg, smokers, the obese, junk food eaters.  I am surprised you have not encountered that view around here.  Of course, here you would meet only in the virtual sense.

  •  Help please (0+ / 0-)

    Please help us put pressure on our Governor (Robert Bentley) to expand Medicaid (please use the phone number) Phone 334.242.7100 or fax   334.353.0004 http://governor.alabama.gov/...   Please support the citizens of Ala. (Medicaid expansion) please sign the petition http://www.crumpton2014.com/...

  •  There is no such thing as a healthy person (0+ / 0-)

    Everyone ends up at a doctor or hospital. With little exception, most of us in the US were born in a hospital! The same conservative/libertarian rhetoric we hear over and over. These same type of people are okay with giving to churches or charities.

  •  Sometimes specifics can change a mind. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, drmah, JVolvo

    After a couple similar conversations to yours, we went back after some general cost research and said  "If you change your mind, did you know you can get a pretty good policy for about $xxx, and if you make under $xxx per year you may qualify for a tax credit of at least $xxx. With your excellent health, you can choose a higher deductible policy and save even more. And you can sleep even sounder." Note the phrase tax credit, not [that commie] subsidy.  We got silence/grunts both times, but both of them took our notes away with them....

    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

    by CoyoteMarti on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 10:28:30 PM PST

  •  I am fine with that (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz, mamamorgaine, ybruti, JVolvo

    as long as when he does have to go to the hospital someday, he agree to forego any care he cannot personally afford. He should also have it tattooed somewhere on his person or carry a letter indicating his refusal to receive medical care that exceeds the prespecified limit he can afford.

    Given how many active or athletic  people are injured doing those activities, I am not sure why someone imagines eating right and exercising makes one invulnerable. One of the leading causes of knee injuries, which often require surgical repair, is racquetball, followed by football and golf. Thus, the very thing they do to keep in shape or because they are in shape can often lead to injury.

    Oh, and cancer strikes even the healthiest of people, as many healthy people who have died of cancer illustrate.

    Not to mention, salmonella or e coli can be on your spinsch salad. Hepatitis can be transferred to you through an unhealthy food preparer without your knowledge.

    And that guy who wiped his nose before using the dumbells or the one coughing next to you on the treadmill could very well have a nasty virus that sends even a healthy person to the hospital.

    Plus, if your partner has unprotected sex with someone behind your back and subsequently gives you hepatitis C, I heard today that the new treatment will run $99,000 for the month-long course. Forget about HIV. The uninsured can't afford that and no one who complains about moochers using government services should think about asking for Medicaid.

    As far as I know, HIV and Hep C don't care whether someone is healthy or unhealthy before they strike.

    I believe there were also some healthy people injured in random  shootings despite not even being in a dangerous place and wound up with medical bills.

    I would also stay out of cars. Even if you are the best driver, the other person might not be, and no one's bones or muscles are strong enough to withstand the force of twisted metal plunging through their skin.

    Wasn't Harry Houdini quite fit when he used to let people punch him in the stomach? It is believed he had a diseased appendix before the punch that led to his death.

    I know a woman who was found to have a bat living in her house. The bat escaped and was unavailable for testing, so she and her kids had to get expensive rabies shots at the ER. For whatever reason, they were told doctors in NJ do not administer rabies shots and they have to be given at the ER. (Supposedly, you can get rabies from the droppings of a diseased bat.)

    Just seems like a lot of possible ways for even the fittest and most careful to need medical care unexpectedly. But as long as he is willing to die for declining insurance and wanting to deny others the right to affordable care, I support that right. I do believe in the right to suicide.

    What I don't believe in is making other people pick up your tab or be unable to afford healthcare because you are a selfish dick who thought you wer a God and would never need medical care.

    *Note: All uses of "you" are meant generally and do not refer to any specific individual.

    **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

    by CatM on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 11:24:42 PM PST

  •  Dancing about architecture... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Calamity Jean, JVolvo

    Only thing more useless than a jailhouse lawyer is a laundry room economist.  BTW, during November new home sales were up more than any time in the last 35 years. If he is on the sidelines its due to mental insufficiency, not economic uncertainty. Just sayin...

    “Ten people who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent.”

    by frenchy339 on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 12:46:03 AM PST

    •  Retail sales sucked bad for the weekend (0+ / 0-)

      So I'm sure retailers will be laying off security guards and cutting back retail workers hours but hey making sure it seems like the Democrats have overcome their inability to bring the country out of a recession is more important than reality. And of course it must seem like the economy is good ( ignore the 7 1/2 percent unemployment #s ) because we are forcing poor people to purchase crappy high deductible insurance that they will not use because they won't be able to afford the deductible to use it, at a time when they can least afford any new monthly bills. Double whammy take their money with a shitty economy then take any money they might have left and give it to the insurance companies in exchange for unusable insurance. And Dems wonder why people turn to tea baggies and republicans to vent.

  •  Make insurance a requirement for student loans (0+ / 0-)

    Like the selective service for men, force students to require proof of purchase of healthcare insurance to obtain a student loan.

    That will force the young invincibles to participate in the healthcare system we're trying to create and that they'll eventually use in 50 or so years.

    Consider: it's only ~$200 per month extra for them. With a loan, they can afford it because if that's wrapped up into all the other costs for university, they'll never notice it and people will finally have the healthcare they deserve.

  •  What if this guy broke a leg... (0+ / 0-)

    ... or caught a staph infection, or got mugged while walking down the street. The hospital bills could, and probably would,  bankrupt him for life. Reading about people like this makes me believe the recent articles about the results of a study that found Americans to be among the dumbest in the world.

    But take heart. Once the ACA is rolling, people will love it. The chance for conservatives to get rid of it will be nil. That's why their push is so strong now. They know that, when people actually have it, the Wingers' cause is doomed.

  •  Too Bad There's No Such THing as Insurance (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SottoVoce, JVolvo

    against magical thinking.  Probably because he and people like him wouldn't buy it anyway.

    It would destroy the spell they live under.

    Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

    by Limelite on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 03:21:01 AM PST

  •  Reagan made many Americans stupid. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo, Damnit Janet
  •  Karma (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo

    You might like to point out that there is lots of karma attached to every incarnate soul;  karmas that we, the bearers of same, don't know what they are, what is in store for us during our lifetimes.

    I liked your comment about slipping on ice.  One could also add being an " innocent" target of a shooter.  Or, getting hit by a texting driver while walking on a sidewalk.

    I know those are negative thoughts, but reality is not always positive.

    •  So due to Karma, (0+ / 0-)

      if I hurt my back, I had it coming because in my past life I was a bad person?  Is that how it works?

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 01:43:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kind of (0+ / 0-)

        Everything is due to karma.  It is what makes you, and introduces you to your family and friends, acquaintances, even enemies, and to a great degree, your destiny.

        In Christianity, or is it Judaeism, " eye for an eye" pretty much sums up how it works.  Krishna refers to " chains of gold, and chains of iron" when speaking of lives of wealth, health and ease vs lives of misery, disease and horrors. This is a reference to the karma each one of us carry around with us.  There are a gazillion more references to how it works.

        It is just. "You reap what you sow"

        But, as humans, we have a degree of free will and can help ourselves lay down the direction of the "railroad" track of our life/lives a bit. Just be ause you die, or get baptized or whatever, does not absolve you of your karma.

        Of course, the big question is how to stop making new karmas that we' ll just have to undergo....  And how do we get off this "Wheel of 84" once and for all time.

        Or, so I have been taught

  •  I'm assuming lots of folks like him are (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo

    out there since I've got three or four such in my immediate family and perhaps dozens in my extended family, and they seem like otherwise pretty nice people once they get to know you. But get them talking policies and politics and they seem to have contracted the same RW talking-points virus. Sad. Great diary, btw.

    I discover myself on the verge of a usual mistake. ― Walt Whitman, Song of Myself

    by dannyboy1 on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 04:36:58 AM PST

  •  Thanks for the "rant." (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo

    We all need to be reminded of this mindset. I just watched Gov. Steve Beshear of Kentucky talk about the 100,000 people in Texas who have signed up and half a million who have begun the process. We will always have those who think they don't need their neighbor, who cherry pick their religion, who resent all those they believe are beneath him. Brush this conversation off your shoulder and move on. Don't let one "John Wayne" ruin your day.

    @StewartAcuff www.stewartacuff.com

    by StewartAcuff on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 05:22:24 AM PST

  •  Yeah - I was a poster child for not "needing" (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Danali, drmah, JVolvo, walk2live, Aquarius40

    health insurance - exercised, ate well, healthy at 53. Then I got a cancer diagnosis two weeks before I was set to run my first marathon. Stage 4. Out of the effin' blue. Fortunately, my employer provides insurance, so I was able to afford all the treatment I needed to recover.

    What is this guy's plan?

    The more we are, the less we need.

    by Fiddlegirl on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 05:48:32 AM PST

    •  Same here... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aquarius40

      pretty much same story - comments below.

      Funny thing is that I'm a "reformed/former libertarian". If you had talked to the 29-year-old me, I would have not been unlike the guy in this diary.

      It's really soothing to believe in some kind of utopia like "Galt's gulch" where everything works perfectly and nothing goes wrong... until reality smacks you in the ass.

      Freedom isn't free. That's why we pay taxes.

      by walk2live on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 11:12:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary. This guy sounds as though (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo

    his real issue is spending his money for insurance that might go to people in groups he hates: brown people, immigrants, fat people, Democrats, etc.  He believes he has inoculated himself from sickness by his healthy habits.  But he has also inoculated himself from any facts he doesn't want to hear by keeping away "negative energy."  He's determined to lock out information that doesn't jibe with his agenda.  Happiness is in short supply; don't waste yours trying to reason with him.

    "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

    by SottoVoce on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 05:48:38 AM PST

  •  I'd like to introduce Mr. Uninsured (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, JVolvo

    to a client of my former boss, a workers' comp attorney.  The client was working on a scaffold when it collapsed, and he fell 12 feet to a concrete surface.  He was left with one leg shorter than the other, and even though he wears an orthopedic shoe on the short leg, he now has a misshapen back, and constant pain, because of the permanent damage to his legs.

    Of course workers' comp paid his medical bills.  But until the moment the scaffold collapsed, the client never thought he'd need the insurance.

    Then there was the guy who worked on a road crew, painting yellow and white stripes.  Those stripes are not paint, they're melted plastic.  The tank exploded, spraying superhot plastic goo all over the worker.  He lost a finger (it was burned off), was disfigured, and had to undergo skin grafts for his burns.  He could no longer go hiking or do any of the other outdoor activities he used to love.

    Again, workers' comp paid the medical bills, and he also sued, and settled with, the manufacturer of the defective tank.  But my point is, "positive energy" and a vegetarian diet can't ward off an accident that can happen in an instant and change your life forever--and won't necessarily be covered by insurance paid for by someone else.

    •  I could introduce him to me... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rolandz, Aquarius40, johnosahon

      I'm 40-year old, fit, healthy, etc... then cancer.

      Fortunately, it was very treatable, but without insurance would have cost about $40k (surgery and various related treatments). Insurance paid a negotiated ~$25K. My out-of-pocket was around $1K.

      The thing is, that without insurance, it's unlikely that I would have gone in for a routine physical, which discovered the cancer (I had no noticable symptoms). Instead, it would have gotten much worse before I noticed something was wrong... As it was, it was just starting to spread to surrounding tissues. I totally dodged a bullet - thanks to being insured (and a good doctor who noticed something wrong).

      Freedom isn't free. That's why we pay taxes.

      by walk2live on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 11:08:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  None of us "need" health insurance. We all (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RogerJ, drmah, JVolvo, allenjo, Subterranean

    need health care.  

    "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 05:55:34 AM PST

  •  He reminds me of anti-helmet motorcycle riders (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo, Aquarius40

    The mantra about how a helmet diminishes their God given right to act out some Hollywood fantasy flies in the face of how much the rest of us have to pay when they splatter their brains on the pavement.

    Amazing how much society has to pay to care for the vegetable who just wanted to be "free."

    The Affordable Care Act is all about these idiots, as well as the "All American" college football star who was tackled and is now in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. It's all about spreading the risk to as large a group as possible.

    For too many years, large  companies could get a reasonable health plan because they could spread the risk. Smaller companies were forced to apply by themselves instead of being able to pool with other like companies resulting in much higher premiums. The ACA is going to give the employees the ability to purchase quality insurance at similar rates only available through large group plans.

    As a real estate agent in Las Vegas (the  poster child for the real estate crash.) I take exception with his declaration that Obama is responsible for uncertainty in the real estate market. This idiot obviously became a real estate agent AFTER the the 2008 collapse. Beginning in 2004 when the bubble first started growing in Las Vegas, I told everyone I know it wasn't sustainable. But as long as the good times roll, nobody wants to hear the negative. Funny how many high power agents or mortgage brokers who were foreclosed on here in Las Vegas.

    Since those heady days and the CRASH in 2008 (BEFORE Obama was elected President) President Obama has done an amazing job of trying to fix the crap he inherited  from the previous administration. If the  market where you are hasn't improved enough to suit your idea of what it should be, tough shit. Look at your market, not Obama for your troubles.

    You remind me of all the assholes who were bitching about gas prices  a couple of years ago. Prices were rising so therefore it was Obama's fault. Let's leave aside the fact the commodity markets actually control the price, but the fact there was a "colored person" in the White House meant it had to be his responsibility. So now prices are dropping. Who gets the praise?

  •  The fact this guy is in his 40s (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo, Aquarius40, Subterranean

    makes me doubt he'll ever change much, unfortunately.

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 05:57:47 AM PST

    •  Actually, he'll probably change quite soon (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      karmsy

      He's nearing the age when health problems are inevitable.  Once they hit, his "positive energy" theory will be history since the alternative is for him to accept full blame for his illness.

      Of course he could blame the illness on "negative energy" from someone in his life, like his wife or kids.  Depending on how much he's abused them, they may either internalize the blame or tell him to go fuck himself.  Hopefully the latter...

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 01:37:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The greatest threat to any democracy (5+ / 0-)

    no matter how apparently healthy and prosperous, is the ability of a small group of determined and clever sociopaths (which every society has) to manipulate and gain the support of that society's less than successful and happy elements who resent the success of others and feel disrespected and "left behind", along with its rich and powerful elites who just want to protect and expand their wealth and power, and through them take over, and then use their power to destroy that democracy.

    This guy appears to be one of those "left behinders", who wonder who took away their (white male) birthright, and then blame people not like them for it, even though most of them are just like them, only with a different skin color or ethnic background, the powerless and exploited masses, played for suckers by the real enemy, rich and powerful people who have abused their power and money for gain. It's the oldest con in the political book, divide and conquer using race and culture, to keep the masses who have so much in common, divided and weak. Try explaining this to such a mark, and they yell "Marxism!".

    Well, yeah, duh. That was precisely Marx's basic point.

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 05:58:37 AM PST

    •  heh. ^^^THIS^^^ (0+ / 0-)

      Retired Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able). Sarcasm for - and derision of - True Believers / Entitlement "Reformers" / NSA cheerleaders (yes, significant overlap) still available 24/7, you betcha!

      by JVolvo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 08:14:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dick Cheney's inversion (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo, Subterranean

        of Margaret Mead's famous dictum:

        "Never doubt that a small group of conniving, determined monsters can destroy the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
        Seriously, he is our Iago who would be Caesar. Probably the most dangerous man to hold real power in US history, more so than Burr, Calhoun or McCarthy.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 09:02:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  ACA reasoning (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, JVolvo, Subterranean

    I have pretty much given up trying to reason with people that react to the ACA as this person did.  On another blog I mentioned simply that I was 63, had a lot of preexisting conditions, and found it impossible to get individual health insurance.  And that I was glad the ACA would now allow me to get a health insurance policy.  Within minutes I was told that "if I had ever worked, I could get Medicare, but too late for that now"; and that I was a "63 year old parasite".

    Why did these people jump to such ridiculous conclusions?  The facts I didn't offer, because I felt them irrelevant, were that I have worked since I was 16; put myself through college (with the help of my parents); put myself through law school (with the help of my wife); I had a job with great benefits, but I was contemplating retirement and needed to bridge the gap to Medicare at 65.  Also, my wife recently found a job with benefits, so I was able to retire.  

    I have had two major health incidents in my life.  At the age of 18, I lost my right kidney.  It developed a cyst and it had to go.  In 2012 I had major back surgery that would have cost me $350,000.00 out of pocket without insurance and the negotiated rates.  My cost? $1200.00 with the insurance I had at the time.  People who think they don't need insurance are the irresponsible ones.  Rolandz hit the nail on the head.

  •  my answer to people like this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo, Damnit Janet

    if they start to rant about personal freedom and not needing health insurance

    i start to say this
    "Hey why do i need auto insurance?  I am a great driver and have never been in an accident - why is the government forcing me to buy auto insurance ?'

    usually the answer i get is something like this
    "what happens if one day you are in accident ? just because you are safe driver and never had one does not mean in the future you won't"

    my reply
    "same with health insurance .. just because you are healthy now does not mean in the future something (god forbid )
    might not happen to you "

    "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill

    by smartone on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 06:39:28 AM PST

  •  Never met one before? Really? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Subterranean

    Come to Montana, they are in the majority here...

  •  Everyone is a Moocher EXCEPT ME! (5+ / 0-)

    I know the feeling about trying to talk sensibly to folks like this. I put in my time trying to include a few reasonable discussions in one of those Disqus threads for CNN that is always overrun by Tea Party bozos. I explained to one guy that as a self employed person buying on the individual market I was getting absolutely screwed. I was paying $830/month to cover a health conscious me in my late 30's and I couldn't switch because of pre-existing conditions.

    Thanks to Obamacare and also thanks to some improvement in the economy adding some people back into the insurance pools anyway, my insurance will be down to $470/month next year.

    He didn't even bother to accuse me of being a paid Democratic operative liar. First he told me I was an idiot for believing the economy wasn't continuing to crater (maybe where he lives, but not here in Silicon Valley). Then he called me a moocher.

    "How am I a moocher if I'm not getting any subsidies and i was paying $830/month as a 30 something?"

    His reply was that I should have been paying $830/month and thanks to people like him, I was being subsidized and mooching off of him.

    Incredible.

  •  Rolandz: re.UR"might be a Christian Scientist"... (0+ / 0-)

    ...realizing that he is being filtered to us readers thru UR description of his comments, I would suspicion that he may be too stupid to have these thoughts on his own and he has a very distant relationship with any kind of science.

  •  So many comments similar to your experience! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yoshimi, MarkW53, Rolandz, Subterranean

    Like others have said, these are not isolated talking points. I'm in touch with many staunch conservatives and here the same points over and over.

    A great example in my family... My brother has turned into an Alex Jones loving Librarian conspiracy theories and all. He actually developed a level of open anger and disbelief on Facebook when hearing about the Bin Laden raid. At any rate, he was doing small job tile work for himself without paying taxes 5 years ago and barely making enough for food and shelter for him and his girl friend plus her child. No insurance or anything. He was at a point of being hesitant to snowboard with me because any little accident and he'd be screwed. They got pregnant and had premature twins. I forget, but they were so early (8 weeks??) it was more likely they would not survive than not. IC for months with close care long after that with no insurance. He's erupted many times on Facebook over the ACA when a program like this would have made insurance a possibility for him and family. You can't believe how mad he got when I brought that up as an example of how our family would benefit.

    The rest of my family is mostly against the ACA as well and most all have family incomes in the 30 K to 60 K range. My single mother sister has 4 kids and one is on medicaid and food stamps because she is a new mother. I have two adopted siblings that are new parents on medicaid. I have a 30 year old brother that has mental limitations, living with my parents and they refuse to sign him up for health insurance because the program is called ObamaCare in their mind and they want nothing to do with it. He's way overweight and probably diabetic by now. My other sister has a 22 year old with health issues since birth and she is on my sisters plan now and just had some extensive testing.

    What has just driven my crazy is I can illustrate all of these examples of direct help like subsidies from the ACA for our family and my Fox News Mom on medicare will say: "Everyone should be paying the same free market rate on health insurance". This President has really blown up the circuitry in the brains of many Americans.

    •  Thanks for that (0+ / 0-)

      But, my, that was depressing.

    •  Tell your Fox News Mom that Obama (0+ / 0-)

      will be trying for a government takeover of Medicare next year.  Heh.

      Sorry you have to deal with such an intractable family.  I have some family members who drank the kool aid and I know there is just no getting through to them.  Even some of the more rational ones are pretty messed up from watching corporate news:  they constantly talk about the need for bipartisanship and a move to "the middle", and blame "both sides" for pretty much everything.  They just parrot whatever they see on their TV Machine.  It's sad.

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 01:26:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What an ass (0+ / 0-)

    Sometimes I think people who behave like him should have to sign a DNR.

    "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

    by nosleep4u on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 08:14:43 AM PST

  •  Health Insurance (0+ / 0-)

    As him if would be willing to have a tattoo saying "Do not treat or resuscitate"?

  •  This guys sounds like he is a "pivoter" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    walk2live, mrblifil

    like most conservative debaters. It is impossible to debate these guys because they constantly change the argument once you've debunked it.

    Always go back to his original statement and hound him on it. He'll cave eventually.

    "Thanks to this administration people aren't buying homes." WTF does that have to do with what the debate finally settled on (ACA)?

  •  My brother is like this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MarkW53, Rolandz, Subterranean

    My brother is an independent contractor with no insurance.  He paid very high prices one year for crappy insurance, so now he's convinced that insurance is "a scam" and not worth getting.  Nothing I can say can change his mind (in fact, he resents my telling him anything, because if I know something he doesn't and I tell him, I must be "talking down" to him).

    Sorry, just venting myself.

    •  He's right that all insurance is a scam (0+ / 0-)

      but in America health insurance is the only option non-millionaire has if he wants reliable health care.

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 01:17:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you're lucky enough to be very healthy.... (0+ / 0-)

        ...you are going to "lose" money on health insurance. Same as how you "lose" money on car insurance if you never need to use it. But in most cases you are HAPPY to lose money on insurance because it's almost invariably worse to actually "get your money's worth" out of it. Because that means you are unhealthy, or got in an accident, or had your house burn down, etc.

        What you're paying for for insurance is, in part, risk mitigation. You're paying to reduce the risk of you having to pay out an unaffordable amount of money over an unforeseen event. So you're getting something in return, even if you aren't directly getting as much money back in benefits as you are paying in in premiums. That's how it works: insurance depends on most people paying more in than they get out. If it were just a savings plan, and not insurance, then it would be more efficient to just have a savings account. But it isn't.

        This is why it's annoying to hear people whine about having to "subsidize" other people by paying into insurance. That's the point of insurance: you subsidize others who need more help than you do right now, in return for the promise of being subsidized yourself if you end up needing more.

        •  The annoying part of insurance (0+ / 0-)

          is paying for the obscene salaries of insurance executives and their minions who micromanage doctor decisions.  That's what makes it a scam, because the goal of insurance companies is to make as much money as they can by witholding as much health care as legally possible.  They're getting a 20% cut, compared to about 3% overhead in running Medicare.  

          "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

          by Subterranean on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 02:27:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Sounds like the prototype (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Subterranean

    for a Pat Buchanan voter.  Utterly uninformed, utterly certain that he is absolutely right, utterly unconcerned about anyone else.

    I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

    by trumpeter on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 09:20:56 AM PST

  •  Everything is cool until it isn't............. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Subterranean

    One of my Dad's sayings.  So long as this guy is healthy he doesn't need insurance, when he gets sick..........

  •  Belief in the Rethug Meme is a Chosen Belief (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz, Killer of Sacred Cows

    While we all are bombarded by themes and beliefs from all sorts of sources, in the end the individual ...YOU... make a choice to make any part of your belief system. That belief filters information, and that is how we all 'see' the world. That works for all of us. For progressives interacting with Tea-Partiers it means that we are directly confronting those beliefs on topic after topic.

    That is what is so discouraging about trying to interact with true believers on the subject of what is real (from our perspective). Logical arguments that counter their beliefs are literally falling on deaf ears and get those stupid canned responses that drive us up the wall.

    That folks like this have somehow chosen this belief and literally seemed trapped (to their own detriment) makes it all the more frustrating. However understanding that fundamental role of belief is also is a starting point for making this situation more understandable on a human scale of things. It certainly has helped me better understand myself.

    In my opinion, we each have to come to realize that our beliefs filter what we see in the world, and ultimately we have to realize that we are responsible for what we consciously choose to adopt as our belief.

    More to the point at hand, that Tea-Party, far right conservatives have chosen a hate-filled, illogical belief that causes them to hate and act against their own self interests as well as our common interests. This will have consequences that they must eventually face. (Unfortunately it might have consequences for us also, if they prevail.) Truly facing the consequences of one's beliefs is hard to do, but is the only starting point for us all in beginning to realize that changing one's belief is the only starting point to making a change in our lives.

    That is true for us all.  There are certainly reasons individuals find certain belief's more attractive than others. However, it is still the individuals choice to truly adopt them. These beliefs can be changed... but only by them in the end. Attempting to be a catalyst for that change can be daunting. However, it behooves us to realize and to discover what beliefs make us progressive. That may be just as valuable an exercise for us. Ranting against such irrationality is a starting point, but only a starting point.  Peace.

  •  Irrationality (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz, Killer of Sacred Cows

    People like him believe that if you pray to God and live a good life bad things won't happen to you.  It's magical thinking so no amount of logic will work.

    They really believe that people who get sick or are poor brought it on themselves by "not believing enough" or by doing something God disapproved of.

    Therefore the rest of us live sin-filled lives (in their minds) we are responsible for everything bad that happens.

  •  Simple response (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    turn it around on them like this...

    1) This is a Christian nation so we don't let people die at the emergency room just because they're too irresponsible to pay for their own health insurance. You're Christian right?

    2) I'M SICK AND TIRED of paying for other people's health care when they get in an accident or suddenly find out they have cancer. You believe in personal responsibility right?

    3) As a taxpayer I can't wait to start enjoying the benefits of having people pay for their own healthcare. This is going to allow state budgets to dramatically improve so we don't have to pay for moochers. This is also going to dramatically improve our long term fiscal outlook so we can eventually begin across the board tax cuts. You like tax cuts right?

    Perfect then, in fact, you love Richard Nixon's, I mean the Heritage Foundation's, I mean Mitt Romney's, I mean President Obama's healthcare plan... you just don't realize it (maybe keep that last line to yourself... they get kinda touchy when you crush them with logic).

  •  Somehow, it doesn't surprise me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrblifil

    that this neighbor, in his 40's, is single with no children.

    One person can make a difference--and everyone should try. --John F. Kennedy

    by GypsyT on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 11:23:28 AM PST

  •  How to counter? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz, Killer of Sacred Cows

    With some people it's no use. This guys narcissism is such he needs to convince people he's somehow invulnerable to bad luck. I had a years long battle with my Dad over smoking that followed similar lines. Eventually we became estranged, I couldn't handle the irrationality from an otherwise intelligent person. I not only lost hope he'd ever quit for his own good, I became indifferent whether he did or not. He's now past 70. A few years ago a doctor told him the circulation in his leg was impaired by smoking (my Dad has also probably been impotent for years due to the same damage to small capillaries cigarettes cause). The diagnosis was quit smoking now, or suffer amputation in a year. Guess what? One conversation with a doc outweighed 15 years of pleading with his own son, and he's been off cigarettes now for nearly 8 years.

    My point is: this guy you encountered may never change. Or he might do a 180 and completely reform his views. But he won't do it based on anything you might or might not say. And at the end of the day, those bothered by the behaviors have simply got to find a way to make peace with this essential reality.

  •  tell him to enjoy his fine (0+ / 0-)

    ...because we're finished picking up the slack of people like him who don't think they need health insurance, then can't pay their bills when they get hurt or sick.

    he's a willing moocher.

    "An inglorious peace is better than a dishonorable war." -Mark Twain

    by humanistique on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 12:36:38 PM PST

  •  You should have also mentioned (0+ / 0-)

    that if he's forced to go to the ER and doesn't have health insurance the US government i.e. the taxpayer foots the bill to the tune of 85 billion a year. So much for the concept of self-responsibility.

    No being has inherent power, only the illusion of power granted by others who similarly have none.

    by Mark701 on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 12:38:33 PM PST

  •  People are capable of believing virtually (0+ / 0-)

    anything if it rationalizes their own selfishness and greed.

    Over the years I've had a few people start in on me with that positive energy bullshit.  One of them finally stopped after I told him to use his positive energy to go fuck himself.  What it all boils down to is, "I'm healthy because I think good thoughts, and those people are sick by their own damn fault!"  That's all their belief system is.  You never hear sick people babbling about positive energy because they would then have to accept blame for their sickness.  Positive energy spiritualists rank next to free market worshippers in my book.  Both require the same sort of mental acrobatics, and both idealize selfishness.

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 01:11:21 PM PST

  •  Obviously, he thinks those who are sick deserve it (0+ / 0-)

    What a conservative concept!

  •  If you break your leg and don't have insurance (0+ / 0-)

    the medical industry will charge you the price of a brand new small economy care to repair it.  Hell, with the discounts that the insurance industry negotiates with the medical industry, the price for a broken leg is probably within your deductible if you have insurance.

    This whole ACA thing is a step in the right direction but it does have a whole lot of things that need to corrected in the law and regs.

    But the big issue is that the way we do medical care in the US is just totally screwed up.  We need to join the more advanced civilized nations of the world and adopt single payer system just like the French have.

  •  these are the type of people... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz

    ..who could be a risk to the ACA as it is currently set up.  They don't want coverage until something happens and then they sign up and can't be refused.  Thus the only people paying for insurance are people using it and costs soar.

    I just wish they would go to a system where everyone has coverage and it is paid for with tax dollars.  If you wanted to keep the insurance companies alive you could have them then bid for random groups of people to service.  Or have them be like a reinsurance pools or something.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 10:09:13 PM PST

    •  It depends (0+ / 0-)

      on the definition of "pre-existing condition."  I would consider this to be someone who has been undergoing treatment for a disease or an injury suffered a long time before the insurance exchanges began.  Someone who was injured in an auto accident, then attempt to get insurance through the exchange, should not get it.

      BTW, isn't it interesting that the major part of the number of people who have signed up for insurance have come from the state exchanges ... which have smaller population bases than the federal website?  It's called "scale;" something that is done on a smaller scale usually have better results than something on a large scale?

      Sadly, these governors (mostly Republican) want nothing to do with anything that has Obama's name attached to it.  With many governorships up for election next year, it is another reason liberal/progressive voters must go to the polls.

      The comeback began in Virginia ... it's time to make it grow in 2014!

      by JJ Zucal on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 04:13:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's so bizarre. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    I met people recently who otherwise seem to be conservative Christians, but buy into that sort of "The Secret" mentality of Positive energy--like draws like, normally seen in the metaphysical and occult communities.

    It's probably part and parcel to that name and claim it junk.

    If you are right with your god, you can't be poor or get sick. Because those bad things would be a judgement. That means that the only sick people or poor people out there are bad people and they deserve it.

    So why should he have to share the risk with all of us fallen creatures?

    Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

    by GreenMother on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 05:46:43 AM PST

  •  No One Needs Health Insurance! (0+ / 0-)


    Until you do need it.

  •  He's right! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows, Rolandz

    And I don't need the US Army. Or the National Guard.  I've never called the police or fire departments, either.  So why do I have to pay for THEM?  

    I don't have children so why do I pay taxes for schools?  And I don't have an account at any of the 'too big to fail' banks so why do I have to pay to bail them out?

    /snark

    This list goes on and on.. and actually some of those examples are probably a better argument than health insurance.  

    Here's the thing.  We all live in a society.  If this guy doesn't want to play by the society's rules then he is free to leave our society and live in an ice cave on the polar cap if he wants.  If he doesn't want health insurance he's free to move to Somalia where there's no health insurance. Just like I'm free to move to a country that doesn't have education...

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana

    by RAST on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 07:36:39 AM PST

  •  Everyone gets sick (0+ / 0-)

    People who exercise, eat right and take care of themselves get sick.  They get viruses, have accidents, and they age.  Your friend is in his 40s.  He's about to discover that middle age affects the best of us.

    It's personally irresponsible not to have health insurance.  Doesn't he know that people who exercise are more likely to have accidents than couch potatoes?  He trips and breaks his ankle and guess who pays for his $10k emergency room trip?  The taxpayer.  I seriously doubt a security guard has $10,000 lying around waiting to be spent, so he may be shocked and horrified at how fast his personal savings are drained.

    Ask him how he would feel if his car were hit by an uninsured driver?  That is what an uninsured person is like.  The hospital is required to treat them, so the hospital gets stuck with unpaid bills and the government has to bail out the hospital with taxpayer dollars.  That makes him one of his hated welfare recipients.

    By mandating insurance, we protect the public from caring for him.  He is going to get older.  He is going to have health care problems.  I don't care if he is a triathlete vegan, he is going to get sick or hurt at some point.  Even Jack Lalanne got old and died.  If he responds that Medicare takes care of the elderly, ask him how that is not mandatory insurance.

  •  Maybe someone will run over him (0+ / 0-)

    Or a piece of Space Lab could rain down on his head.

    And I know a fellow of similar background; older, single, who lost an eye to a tassle on the end of a stripper's boob.

    Seriously, it doesn't matter how many vegetables you eat. When your number's up, it's up!

    And if you don't have health insurance, guess who winds up paying for your new glass eye!

    THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. -- L. Ron Hubbard Technique 88

    by xenubarb on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 10:15:54 AM PST

  •  No wanting healthcare (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz

    Well, if he falls and knocks himself out and has no health care I think the society should take him to a warm room and leave him. No insurance: We care for him until he has no more money and that is all. This is an easy solution and one which will appall progressives and delight conservatives.

  •  Americans (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz

    trust each other far less than they used to according to a recent study about which I read in the news. They also have a nearly latent denial about their own responsibility as citizens. Citizenship is not taught to chuldren much anymore and views like yours discussed above

    I said that this is the whole purpose of insurance, to minimize risk to the individual by spreading it over a large pool of people
    are considered to be anti-capitalist at best or Communist at worst. Working to correct this kind of attitude will be difficult and I suspect that it will take a violent or at least deeply tragic social cataclysm to create the will to change.
  •  scheduling Accidents and Hurricanes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz

    Collisions of two vehicles are almost never scheduled.  No one ever calls in sick for the flu or the heart attack that they will have next week.  Uncertainty is part of life.  Catastrophic losses were suffered in New York and New Jersey last year because of a winter storm, the likes of which no one had ever seen. Eating vegetables and getting exercise did not protect any residents of the Northeast from high winds and flooding.  Even virtuous people suffer from unplanned incidents.

  •  Then there are young adults (0+ / 0-)

    The fringe right are doing their damnedest to encourage young adults who aren't getting insurance from work or their parents to not seek an insurance policy through the website.  That is massively irresponsible.

    What the Obama administration should note is that young adults do get injured or killed in automobile, work and home accidents, some suffer diseases such as cancer or heart ailments, in an effort to show them they should get insurance rather than fleecing taxpayers and insurance holders through state "charity care" funds.

    The comeback began in Virginia ... it's time to make it grow in 2014!

    by JJ Zucal on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 04:04:54 PM PST

  •  Same here (0+ / 0-)

    Really, you can't underestimate the influence of right-wing media on the attitudes of this kind of person, who I have to deal with in law school every day, believe it or not.  This could all be solved in a few years if you reinstated the Fairness Doctrine enforced by the FCC and gave some of these outliers something else to listen to besides Rush Limbaugh.

    •  Also ... (0+ / 0-)

      restoring the limits on media ownership in an area.  Newscorp. has done a great job buying and making arrangements with radio and television stations locally; in New York City it owns the New York Post, WNYW-TV and has a news arrangement with WWOR-TV.  That allows Newscorp. to push their agenda outside of the Faux Noise Channel.

      The comeback began in Virginia ... it's time to make it grow in 2014!

      by JJ Zucal on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 04:18:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I missed something (0+ / 0-)

        All that would be needed is either FCC action or a congressional law that would permit a period of time, 3 to 5 years, to sell most of their local properties.  Unfortunately, this conservative Supreme Court likely would strike it down on "free press" and "free speech" doctrines (even though the founders envisioned both as the freedom to oppose the government through words).

        The comeback began in Virginia ... it's time to make it grow in 2014!

        by JJ Zucal on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 04:22:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  With a job as a security guard.... (0+ / 0-)

    ....this doofus IS going to end up in the emergency room some night.  Lots of my friends have done guard work, and it's always something--from tripping or slipping, through having some moron leave something industrial insecured and it falls on you, through things that end with bullets.

    And then what?  If he is lucky, Workman's Comp might take care of it.  If he is not, the sleezebag he works for will contest it, and the hospital and doctors will come after him.

    But you can't tell him that, because he has already made up his mind and is addicted to magical thinking.

  •  "It’s this pervasive feeling... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rolandz

    ...that everybody out there is some kind of moocher and leech on society, and that everyone’s trying to get something for nothing..."

    Just as puritanism is the fear that somebody, somewhere, might be having a good time, conservatism is the fear that somebody, somewhere, might be getting something they didn't pay for.

  •  look (0+ / 0-)

    i'm not trying to be a jerk here but i would feel alot better about a whole different system as opposed to the mandate to purchase into this insurance scam, like for instance, as many here advocate, medicare for all... we already pay for this~! ok, fine, up the percentage a bit to cover everyone, no one should be denied access... however, there should be something of an incentive for folks to make some healthier lifestyle choices! & we could do well to address the things that make us unhealthy that are not of our own doing- like the massive unrelenting pollution of our water, soil, & air~! these things sicken us~! & how about all the creepy ingredients that take alot of effort to avoid? it is hard not to feel that there is some big collusion going on... picture insurance execs & polluters & monsanto laughing together about how much money they will make~ one guy makes dough making us sick while the other guy rakes it in getting us "well" with all kinds of expensive pharmaceuticals & treatments... the whole system stinks~! if only we could all agree that we all need to work together & it is vital, VITAL, that we take good care of our water, soil & air~ which in turn would help our health... not to mention that i do not mind some spots on my apples but i do mind the massive death of bio-diversity in the name of profit... there are terrible systemic issues that need to be dealt with & this law is putting an expensive band-aid on a heart attack...

  •  Yea but (0+ / 0-)

    The problem I have with Obama's health care law is that the government is making it mandatory that we have to buy insurance coverage. When in the history of the United States has it been constitutional that the government requires everyone of us to buy something? I don't think that's what the founding fathers would have had in mind when they were setting up our country to be honest. If the government wants to give me free health care or offer low cost care as needed, that'd be great, it'd be just like one of those other civilized countries that already do that. But in fact what Obama is doing is attempting to give a large population of the lower class (income under $15,000) free coverage, while everyone else has to pay $300 a month, BY LAW?? I don't have that kind of money in my budget for something I may use once a year when I get the cold or sprain my ankle. It's a total waste of money from the perspective of a single blue collar working class guy. I make just slightly more than the cutoff for welfare healthcare, and not enough to be able to afford to pay for what they consider "affordable" health care. I don't particularly want health care. It would be nice but I don't want some fascist government telling me I have to buy it because they've colluded with the health insurance and medical industry. It's just a deal to uphold an inflated colossal industry that is not really designed to help people anymore.

    •  The problem is... (0+ / 0-)

      ...that if you have a heart attack or are hit by a bus, no one is going to leave you to die. You may prefer to live in a society like that but the truth is that a person's health is unlike any other aspect in life in that one cannot choose to be sick or not be sick (unlike, say, choosing to drive a car or not drive a car). You can't opt out of your body. If you don't have insurance, you simply push the financial burden onto those who DO. That's why the government needs to step in. I agree that it would be much better if we had a public option, but waiting around for that to happen would just be putting off a solution to the problem for who knows how much longer.

      Eventually, life is going to throw something at you that is much more expensive to fix or is much more long-term than a sprained ankle or a cold.

  •  The heck of it is... (0+ / 0-)

    Even if you take very good care of yourself, it doesn't matter if your body is against you from the start.  For help with that, you need to see a doctor.  My father doesn't eat well, doesn't exercise that much, and his cholesterol levels are much better than my mother, who eats well and exercises a lot.  Assuming that you're safe just because you avoid some risk factors does not make it so.  To really take care of yourself, you need certain preventative medical care, especially as you get older.  So even if you avoid mishaps and maintain a healthy lifestyle, you still need medical coverage.

    To me, this whole 'personal responsibility' schtick is what people fall back on when they are unable to accept the reality that what others do affects them, and what they do affects others.  After all, if it all comes down to personal responsibility, they're not really responsible for all the societal ills out there.

  •  Post the address where he works. (0+ / 0-)

    Some one will make sure he learns WHY everyone needs health care no matter HOW much you THINK you take care of yourself.

  •  I-Don-t-Want-Health-Insurance-I-Don-t-Need-Health- (0+ / 0-)

    He really needs it, he is obviously deranged, he should be in an asylum.

  •  Insurance or No Insurance (0+ / 0-)

    It's really too bad that people don't look further than their nose, do research to see what is right or wrong.  It's obvious that the security guard has done nothing to dispel his fears about health insurance and really hasn't thought out what will happen WHEN he does become sick.   I suppose the emergency room will be his doctor.    

    •  No long term thinking (0+ / 0-)

      a dangerous kind of myopia and a basic resentment at being forced to think about how they are part of something larger than themselves adds up to great GOP messaging success.

      It's a long, hard battle over a narrative.  But we gotta engage in it.

      Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Knowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 09:21:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  He needs to be forced to carry a card.... (2+ / 0-)

    A card that says something like:
    "I have no health insurance, of my own volition.  If I am in an accident, or contract a serious illness, I hereby promise to pay full costs for any and all treatment, and will NOT burden my fellow tax payers with the expense.  In the event I die after receiving said treatment, my next of kin will pay the rest of their lives to retire my debt.  In the event I have no next of kin, the Republican Party will pay the bill."

  •  Marjani (0+ / 0-)

    Well, you can't counter that.

    In 2008, when Obama was elected, this nation's economy was going to hayell in a handbasket, and it was one of the only reasons he GOT elected...to keep this country from being flushed down the toilet by the Republican Party. People weren't buying homes, their homes had all but been foreclosed on since the early 2000s; and foreclosure wasn't far behind.

    We had escalating homelessness and a mad loss of jobs like nobody's business and still haven't completely recovered yet. Where was he when all this was happening? Whistling Dixie and skipping along in LaLaLand?

    But if he thought things were "fine and dandy" before this administration, then it's pretty obvious that he was too busy "thinking peaceful thoughts" to pay attention, which means he wasn't paying attention to anything else either. So much for that "power of positive thinking" jazz. It only works for people who are so out of touch with the real world that they are whistling a happy tune while everyone else is drowning.

    If he thinks he has to work to pay for people to have medical insurance when he doesn't need it himself, then he actually expects that he will live this life without ever needing it. And the shame of it all is ... just when people think all is well ... the clock is ticking on that one.

    In the meantime, this guy needs an American history class. And a math class. Bad.

  •  No Insurance (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chelonia testudines

    You know there a lot of people that believe that. I would say just let them suffer the consequences. But I know we would end up paying for them . But we should post online a picture of any person that does not do his or her part to help this law and people to have good health care.  Let's remember the names of these people that say they do not need health care. For you know they will first in line for the help.

  •  Ah! Young and "Invincible" ... and oh! so wrong (0+ / 0-)

    Let it steep... Just like good TEA. He did not win the argument, and he probably knows it himself, just does not want to admit it: He would have to admit his own frailty.  I want to believe that he lives a model life: works hard, no drugs or alcohol, clean food, clean thoughts ... will never be paralyzed by a drunk driver who is under-insured, will never step off the curb in front of a bus.. will never be attacked by a gang or mugged on the subway. (He probably has a gun, just in case)... Nice Pollyanna life.
    I wish him no harm: He will become convinced of the necessity of a good Healthcare Insurance the day he gets cancer, or cannot afford a life saving procedure for his children. Many have gone without car insurance thinking that as long as they did abide by all the rules, nothing bad would ever happen to them. The time to get Health Insurance is BEFORE you get sick.

  •  Propaganda WORKS folks! (0+ / 0-)

    I am shocked at the people who are shocked that half or more of the country is totally sure that Obama did a bad job with Katrina, THe Housing crash, The Bailout AND that he is actually an aging Kenyan Socialist who has created death panels, got elected by the Muslim Brotherhood, Wants to institute Sharia Law and created totally government run Health Care. See I am just old enough to remember that we had a big WAR called WWII (World War II) which introduced a modern scheme for control of the population - the Propaganda Ministry. After the war we changed the name of that pursuit to "Public Relations and Marketing". You can get a degree in that now. And it works. I give you, as examples of it's effectiveness, Feminine Hygiene Deodorant Spray, and Ted Cruz. Also I give you Obama, the Progressive Senator who becomes President by selling everyone on his progressive stances on most all issues. Today there is a dead course of study - Politics and Political Science. TOday there is just marketing and it works so well we believe, as did most of the world in 1935, that certain oft repeated lies are irrefutable truth and we act on that basis. BAD THING as my history Prof used to say.

  •  How about MY needs and wants? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chrisculpepper

    Personally, I don't NEED OR WANT to pay for drones, nuclear weapons, or to lease out MY SHARE of public lands to frackers, loggers, oil exploration or weapons testers.
    I don't NEED OR WANT to to pay to prop up foreign governments who kiss the asses of international (US) corporations by kicking the asses of their own populations.  I don't NEED OR WANT to pay for the "collateral" murder of civilians in the zeal to annihilate "suspected terrorists" in foreign countries.
    I don't NEED OR WANT to pay to chase Edward Snowden or any other whistle-blowing hero pursued across the globe.  I CERTAINLY don't NEED OR WANT the NSA spying on me, especially on my own dime.
    I don't NEED OR WANT to pay for the life-long pensions or healthcare of lawmakers who would deny that same "perk" to their own employers (the rest of us)... even after only serving a day in office, and even after being FIRED (voted out) for reason.
    I don't NEED OR WANT to subsidize corporate lobbying against my wishes when I purchase a product without AT LEAST the benefit of knowing that I'm patronizing a company that is using my money against my best interests.
    Maybe most of all, I don't NEED OR WANT to pay for the revenue shortfalls of states which whine about the burden of THEIR federal contributions.
    Maybe I could use the combined savings to pay for my own health care when I inevitably need it, PLUS have enough left over to forgo the use of credit cards when something I actually DO NEED OR WANT arises... that is, act responsibly and independently.
    Get my point, or do I need to go on?  The list of the things my taxes pay for that I don't agree with is endless, but as a responsible member of society, I recognize that that membership in a society (unfortunately) is a package deal.  As unfair as it may seem, we DON'T live in a cafeteria.
     

  •  Health Insurance (0+ / 0-)

    I am 76, and have been "retired" for about 10 years. I've been blessed with good health all my life, although I have had one or two "major" surgeries.  I had insurance at that time, because I was working, and I was grateful, though I considered it part of my remuneration.

    I am surviving on SS now (I was a teacher and did not earn much over my working life), and don't see how I can afford insurance. I suppose my attitude has been that if I am seriously ill, I'll just crawl into the woods and go to "sleep." I realize that circumstances could work to change my mind about this.

    So, now that I am forced to, I will calmly do what the law says. I suppose I will be thankful at some point; I hope so. I'm just not sure what I can do without in order to pay for it.

  •  People like this (0+ / 0-)

    People like this have provided me a successful career in Emergency Nursing. Everyday all day there is a constant parade of people, most of whom did not wake up that morning thinking they would be at the ER before nightfall. Also lots of uninsured people who delayed seeking help - and turned an inexpensive condition into a health catastrophe.  The man is selfish and shortsighted. And he will end up in an ER sooner or later. Everyone does. May he then be bankrupted.

  •  ACA & Voter ID (0+ / 0-)

    Here's a thought. As the right pushes for "voter reform" and drools over the idea of a National (photo) Identification Card, why don't we just tie all this together. Let's approve Voter/National ID Cards as long as the cards also carry information on the individual's health care insurance. When the inevitable accident or illness comes, simply require proof of citizenship and health coverage by presenting your National ID Card. (NB: since National ID Cards will be mandatory, the info should also be accessible thru a "secure" data center.) If a person has refused insurance by choice, then regardless of how sick or injured they are, they should be required to pre-pay for any treatment they want. If they are unconscious or unable to participate in a treatment plan, they should be kept warm and dry until they come to their senses or expire. Very simple. Hey, it's the ultimate answer for those who don't want to participate in social insurance programs.

  •  Need for health care , deniers (0+ / 0-)

    The denier in this article is the perfect example of a dumb f...  refusing to believe the common sense fact that we're all just a heart beat away from disaster ; being susceptible to propaganda .

  •  Moocher perception (0+ / 0-)

    The perception that most, if not all "social dollars" spent by the U.S. benefit "moochers and laggards," is wholly the fault of Republican positions and propaganda, most of them extremists who don't care who they tear down or hurt in their zeal to grab every share of funds and opportunity they can for themselves, in service to their own greed, prejudices and warped, law-of-the-jungle social visions.

    As to those young and healthy who object to paying the reasonable amounts for secure health care that the Affordable Health Care act provides for the first time, they are just selfish.

  •  Thanks for trying! (0+ / 0-)

    Thanks for trying. Sometimes it takes a long time, but maybe something you said will break through. It is never wrong to plant a seed.

    "The real choice is between prosperity and decline." BHO 4/22/09

    by Robin7459 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 03:48:34 PM PST

  •  There is a simple way to deal with these idiots. (0+ / 0-)

    Allow them to sign an "opt out agreement," let them live with no health insurance coverage, and when they get sick and have no money, let the idiots die.  Then we will see how fast they flock to sign up.  End of problem.

  •  Personal responsibility (0+ / 0-)

    If he has a car, does that mean he doesn't have auto insurance?

    Because he drives within the speed limit, usually (but not always!) uses his turn signal, and doesn't drive in "bad neighborhoods"?


    Bigotry, prejudice and social "conservatism" always fail. Always.FloydA

    by Simolean on Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 04:54:25 PM PST

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