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Because it's not pretty. I don't know why we have to hear this kind of thing, I'd of been much better off ignorant.

Digg sends me this email every day or so. Interesting stories or something. Today it was about down, they pluck the geese live, hurts like hell. I'm no softy, I shoot animals, we slaughter chickens, but I make an effort to not have animals suffer needlessly.

Supposedly taking the down off the goose alive gives better quality down. Not sure what the deal is. I used to get cheap sleeping bags that said "duck down with some feathers" worked fine. Maybe some lower quality down would be ok. I guess after the birds are slaughtered the down isn't as good. I'd think just a little bit less than perfect would still be ok.

The issue has just begun to be an issue. Patagonia says it's feathers can be traced back to source. Might just be a case of a factory putting on a dog and pony show while the Americans are in town. Most clothing manufacturers were unable to follow the down back past their west coast supplier.

http://www.salon.com/...

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Down?

22%7 votes
25%8 votes
51%16 votes

| 31 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (28+ / 0-)

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 05:54:45 PM PST

  •  Never actually owned anything with down to my (12+ / 0-)

    knowledge.  I'm assuming it's a lot pricier than 'microfiber' or whatever fake fill is used in cheap clothing and pillows.

    But that's certainly not cool.  Reminds me of the stories (and video) of dog toys made overseas with dog hair - from dogs skinned while alive.  I eat meat, but if an animal is going to be maimed or killed for something I bought, I want it killed humanely as possible, not treated as it would have been in the 19th century by vivisectionists.

  •  Old news . (10+ / 0-)

    http://www.patagonia.com/...

    In December 2010, the animal-rights organization Four Paws accused Patagonia of using down from geese that had been live-plucked for their down and force-fed to produce foie gras. We refuted their allegations based on assurances from our down supplier. But some evidence presented by Four Paws prompted us to take a closer look at our down supply chain.

    In 2011, we went twice to Hungary to visit the farms, slaughterhouses and processors that produce our down. We have instructed our supplier to buy down only from slaughterhouses, therefore avoiding the possibility of buying down taken from live birds. We found no evidence of live-plucking in the parts of the supply chain we visited. However, we discovered that the geese that supply our down are being force-fed to produce foie gras, as well as meat, and this does not sit well with us.

    "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

    by indycam on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:07:33 PM PST

    •  Part 2 (7+ / 0-)

      http://www.thecleanestline.com/...

      Many animal-rights organizations decry the practice of live-plucking, in which feathers are removed before they are ready to molt. In 2010, the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) issued a scientific opinion to confirm that gathering, as opposed to plucking, feathers at the time of molting does not harm geese when done properly. We are not confident, though, that guidelines for humane live-plucking can be implemented and monitored through the supply chain.

      In 2009, before the EFSA ruling was issued, we decided to avoid risk of inadvertent harm by sourcing our down only from slaughterhouses, where down and feathers are removed after the geese have been killed for food. Ninety to ninety-five percent of the economic value of a goose is as food and only five to ten percent for its down. Goose down is a by-product of geese raised as food, either for meat or liver (foie gras). In 2009, we required our supplier, Allied Feather & Down, to certify that all down shipped for use in Patagonia products be from geese killed for food, and that the shipments not contain any live-plucked material.

      "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

      by indycam on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:13:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh! my offspring won't like this at all! (5+ / 0-)

    They love their down comforters. The grandkids will be first to revolt against down-filled anything, and they live in cold winters.

    I'm allergic to down, have never bought it for myself. This might be the first time I've been grateful for allergies.

    At all times, day by day, we have to continue fighting for freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom from fear, and freedom from want—for these are things that must be gained in peace as well as in war. - Eleanor Roosevelt

    by SoCalSal on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:09:09 PM PST

    •  SoCalSal, they could use down alternative goods. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SoCalSal, duckhunter

      My youngest kiddo was born with Trisomy 21 & other health issues.  Hospitalized often in first year of life due to reactive airway disease (RAD) & other respiratory goodies.

      When I became kiddos mama, I allergy proofed his room & as much of the house as possible. Good thing too as kiddo also developed asthma....(sigh)

       Which meant finding alternatives to replace down comforters & such.  The down alternatives are washable & I have not found a huge difference in warmth/comfy qualities (but I don't live in the north).

      •  Those alternatives to down (0+ / 0-)

        are what I use, too. They are a little heavier and bulkier than down, but that's worth it for those of us with allergies... and other respiratory goodies.

        I hope your son has a good chance of outgrowing the asthma, as did my son and my mother in law.

        You have earned your angel wings, worldlotus.

        At all times, day by day, we have to continue fighting for freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom from fear, and freedom from want—for these are things that must be gained in peace as well as in war. - Eleanor Roosevelt

        by SoCalSal on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 10:45:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  One company pledges against using (8+ / 0-)

    down that is live-plucked.

    Allied Feather & Down Corp., a down supplier:

    In 2008, we became the first company to require signed audits from our suppliers verifying the source and content of every lot of down we receive. Our commitment to ethical business practices also requires suppliers to verify the humane treatment of animals. We buy no product from suppliers that live-pluck birds.

    http://www.alliedfeather.com/...

    As does,
    Home Fashion Products Association:

    ADFC member companies do not support or condone illegal harvesting of feathers and down from live birds.
    ADFC member companies are committed to the humane treatment of animals and have submitted signed statements certifying that the down and feathers in their products are gathered in accordance with animal welfare laws. Members also require their suppliers to certify that they have not used or condoned any illegal harvesting practices for down and feathers.

    http://downandfeathercouncil.com/...

    Mostly, there's a lot of animal cruelty going on and has been going on for decades, concerning the harvesting of feathers from all kinds of birds.  :(

    I suppose one might want to look for their seals of approval on products before one is sure they haven't purchased a down-filled product to guarantee the down was humanely harvested.  

    You can read one article here, from vegan peace...

    http://www.veganpeace.com/...

    Thank you for this diary.  I had no idea down might come from live-plucked birds.  :::sigh:::

    I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

    by KayCeSF on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:25:50 PM PST

  •  That's a downer. (7+ / 0-)

    Luckily, I wear synthetics and wool.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:28:19 PM PST

    •  Hollowfil... (6+ / 0-)

      ...problem there is it's made from oil...

      Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

      by JeffW on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:36:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I just bought a very thin compactable down coat (5+ / 0-)

      at Cotsco, that's why the issue struck a cord with me. Compacts to nothing, sits in my pack weighing nothing, when put under my big hoodie I'm warm. Didn't cost much. Down feels like good quality.

      Usually I go fleece, trying to cut down on weight and bulk in my pack.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:38:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, we try harder, when we can. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, worldlotus

        It is disappointing.  I guess I should have known.

        Thanks again, ban nock.

        I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

        by KayCeSF on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:42:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  One of the reasons I hate Walmart. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, worldlotus

        Is that they used to sell "Arctex" thermals from Morgan Mills, which had two layers, cotton polyester outside and orlon inside, and they were extremely comfortable and good up to the worst  temps here (N. Texas).
        Then they stopped selling them.
        They sold really good 4 layer knit caps (Thinsulate) for just 5 dollars. I bought a bunch. I still have about 5 or 6.
        They of course stopped selling them and now sell an inferior version for the same price.
        Now they just usually have the Hanes, cotton poly ones.

        I learned to layer when I was framing houses. Thermals, then the nylon over the calf dress socks, to help keep the thermal pants from riding up, then regular crew socks or thermal socks ( as needed) over  those.
        Then two or 3 more layers as needed, top and bottom.
        I used to be able to get cheap polypropolene glove liners which were usually adequate for framing work.
        No more.
        Now I can't even find the cheap acrylic knit gloves.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:08:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I found those old "Walls Drugs" coveralls in a (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          David54, BlackSheep1

          Walmart here. $120. I don't need that much protection but they are good.

          I've also noticed Walmarts are different in different neighborhoods. A lot of work clothes my wife buys me are winter sports cloths, I go to ranch stores too. Warm of late, fifteen more holes to go but lots of jackhammer.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:45:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  David54: under the thermals, a pair (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          David54

          of pantyhose. Get the winter weight or the plain tights.
          Over the thermals, knee-high nylon sox. Over those, good boot sox.
          Over those, good boots.

          Carhartt and some other makers can be sourced online. I get a lot of goodies thru www.sportsmansguide.com - including some really nice milsurplus (from Sweden or other Nato suppliers in cold climes) thermal long johns (and Swiss waterproof gaiters, not leather but a nylon/poly blend).

          Do not under any circumstances ever reverse the order of the pantyhose & thermals, though. It'll kill ya.

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 08:50:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd heard about panty hose, but I had been (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlackSheep1

            reticent to try them. Generally, I was snug as a bug in a rug, and was able to take off a layer when I got warmed up, unlike some of my co-workers, who would wear the insulated coveralls, and by midmorning would be stripping down halfway and tying the sleeves around their waist.
            In the oilfield, we wore insulated coveralls, we had to. There was too much standing or sitting around, and nighttime weather is much more intense.

            You can't make this stuff up.

            by David54 on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 04:34:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  every backpacker knows that layers are always best (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              David54, BlackSheep1

              since you can adjust as needed.

              For many outdoors winter activities, overheating (and sweating into your insulation, which destroys it) is a much more common problem than being cold.

              In the end, reality always wins.

              by Lenny Flank on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 07:53:11 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's where I got the idea of the nylon over the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BlackSheep1

                calf socks. Backpacking. In addition to keeping your feet warm they'll prevent blisters.

                You can't make this stuff up.

                by David54 on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 09:56:46 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  My coworkers were also not so smart in the summer (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BlackSheep1

                They'd take their shirts off and bake.
                Ultimately I devised a system of a long sleeve 2xl work shirt, with a neck loose enough I could put a t shirt over my head and down my back inside the shirt. Then I put a boonie over that.
                Douse your boonie and tshirt in water, if t hey aren't already dripping with sweat, and you've got an AC system.The sleeves were long enough to cover about half of the back of my hands without obstructing work.
                I got real serious about that after I started getting squamous cell cancers.

                You can't make this stuff up.

                by David54 on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 10:02:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  I like the "vapor barrier" system (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlackSheep1, David54

            An absorbent underlayer, followed by an impermeable plastic layer, then a thin outer layer.

            Protects from wet as well as cold, is easily adjustable so you won't overheat, and is much lighter and less bulky.

            But you have to adjust it constantly or you'll overheat.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 07:57:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Wool Seems Pretty Humane to Harvest (5+ / 0-)

      And I remember being concerned about comfort when shopping for my family kilt. Our immigrant friends assured us that the itch problem was mostly an American phenomenon relating to something about the processing. Whatever the explanation, it's been a comfortable garment to wear all my adult life.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:44:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wool socks are one of life's ... (5+ / 0-)

        ...underappreciated luxuries. A perpetual item on my Christmas list.

        Peace, Love, and Canoes!!!

        by OldJackPine on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:54:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have Raynaud's syndrome. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1, Throw The Bums Out

          Diagnosed after our income collapsed.

          I keep intending to buy them but end up with cotton just to have enough changes.

          Got a good brand that wears and washes well? I can wear men's or women's, with a size 10 foot.

          When you come to find how essential the comfort of a well-kept home is to the bodily strength and good conditions, to a sound mind and spirit, and useful days, you will reverence the good housekeeper as I do above artist or poet, beauty or genius.

          by Alexandra Lynch on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 08:51:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Alexandra Lynch: I cannot recommend enough (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            David54

            the surplus sox you can get from Sportsmans' Guide.

            Seriously.

            Over the knee wool sox. The catch is the colors are olive or black.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 08:52:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I found a good deal at Costco. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            David54

            Merino wool. I am wearing them right now. I can't remember the cost but it was surprisingly low. Came in a package of 4.

            I got my feet seriously cold during a prolonged winter camping trip once (frostnipped toes). Seems like my feet and toes get cold much quicker now.

            Peace, Love, and Canoes!!!

            by OldJackPine on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 09:21:11 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Did not know this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, worldlotus

    this planet seems to be based on market cruelty.

    2013 Petties Blog Awards winner for Funniest Pet Blog

    by Gottlieb on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:46:31 PM PST

  •  i don't use down (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    exlrrp, ban nock, worldlotus, duckhunter

    clothes or pillows or anything.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 06:47:05 PM PST

  •  Fascinating. Disturbing, but fascinating. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, worldlotus, duckhunter

    I wouldn't have thought down would be plucked from live fowl any sooner than bacon would be sliced from live piggies.

    “For all you kids watching on C-Span, Boehner just is white.”

    by here4tehbeer on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:02:05 PM PST

  •  There are better ways to stay warm (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, worldlotus, duckhunter

    I have a goose down sleeping bag I bought about 30 years ago.  I also once had a down jacket.  Both were warm until the down got damp and flattened out.  In the case of the sleeping bag, the down I'm laying on gets flattened by body weight and transmits cold up from the ground unless I use a sleeping pad.

    Really wet down is useless insulation...might as wear a soaking wet cotton towel.  To me wool is best, followed by some flavor of thinsulate or microfiber.

    Having said all that, as a waterfowl hunter I always felt like I shouldn't throw away game bird down, but I have no earthly use for the stuff.

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by DaveinBremerton on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:06:01 PM PST

  •  keep my down stuff forever the new synthetics (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, buddabelly, duckhunter

    with multiple layering and GoreTex covering seem to do OK these days, but I haven't yet tested it against winter competition conditions which may come up in a month or two.

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:20:41 PM PST

    •  Where? Thick warm coats are really good for (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annieli, buddabelly, duckhunter

      long stationary periods in very cold weather.

      I'm curious about your competitions. My distances are probably very close in comparison yet it's so difficult.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:57:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Got a light down jacket and a mid-weight down (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, worldlotus, duckhunter

    sleeping bag. Both of 'em is great as long as the stay bone dry. Wet down is like wearing damp paper towels.  The jacket is a Patagonia but like you said that probably don't mean nothing. Based on your diary I'm not sure I would replace 'em but I ain't gonna throw 'em away either.

    Rivers are horses and kayaks are their saddles

    by River Rover on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:25:21 PM PST

  •  Women's support hose make pretty thermal under (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, BlackSheep1, worldlotus

    wear.  If the get 'em wet you can just take 'em off and sling 'em around your head a couple of time and they'll be dry.  

     BTW  If you are  a survey party chief don't do that in front of your crew.  They will mock you there after.

    Rivers are horses and kayaks are their saddles

    by River Rover on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:38:24 PM PST

  •  I have a Gerry down vest that's 20 years old (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, duckhunter

    and still in good shape, even after several machine washings, other than the logo only says 'rry' now. I wear it a lot in spring and fall. I also have a down sleeping bag, probably about 10 years old. It's super light and warm, and I still use it.

    We still have our older down bags - mine is duck down, my wife's is a huge goose down bag she used when she lived in a tent well into winter at one time - but the zippers are broken and they're just used as spare quilts now. They'd be great for car camping, but where we usually camp, the nearest road is about 30 miles away.

    I just bought a Kelty CloudLoft (tm - their synthetic fill) sleeping bag for my wife, which is also super light - under 2 lbs - compressible, cheap, and rated to 30F, which is below where we'd camp out anymore. Synthetics weren't that good when I bought my down bag.

    I'd be less worried about the geese and how the down was obtained, and more worried about who sews and stuffs the bags, how old they are, and how they're treated and paid. While I certainly wouldn't want to buy something animals were mistreated to make, I would also like to know that people and especially children weren't abused to produce what I wear or use as gear backpacking. Unfortunately, the range of choices - particularly in the price range I can afford now - doesn't allow for exercising that concern as well as I'd like.

    No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

    by badger on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:44:54 PM PST

    •  Good point about people being more worthy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      badger, duckhunter

      of concern. Priorities.

      I bought a new synthetic bag and I'm not real happy, kind of cool but real bulky. Might consider a down if I go late fall camping. I've known people that work in Asian sweat shops, they are a source of income. Better than the alternative.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 07:54:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  About 10 years ago (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    worldlotus, duckhunter

    I bought a down jacket that had a hood with fur on it.  After I bought that jacket and was wearing it for a while I found out that the China made jacket with the fur on the hood was dog fur (they named manufacturers and one name was the manufacturer of my jacket).  I had bought the jacket at a warehouse sale and couldn't return it but I took off the hood and threw it away.  It disgusted me.

    Never be afraid to voice your opinion and fight for it . Corporations aren't people, they're Republicans (Rev Al Sharpton 10/7/2011) Voting is a louder voice than a bullhorn but sometimes you need that bullhorn to retain your vote.

    by Rosalie907 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 08:22:32 PM PST

  •  longtime backpacker--I never use down (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    elfling

    Down is worse than useless if it gets wet.

    Synthetic fibers are a hundred times better. And cheaper.

    But ducks and geese do routinely pluck out their own down and use it to line their nest . . . .

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 09:57:47 PM PST

  •  We could always make more (0+ / 0-)

    synthetic, oil based, fake stuff. I guess it's a matter of priorities.

    •  we could do the back-to-nature native thing and (0+ / 0-)

      skin seals.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 10:27:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep. We could. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duckhunter

        Natives don't skin seals and leave the rest of the carcass to lie about and be wasted. True Natives use every bit, and the scrap is minimal. We've come to a society that will throw away an entire steak just to get the tender tips.

        I have no issue with using animals any more than plants, as long as they're not over harvested or treated inhumanely. Problem is, we have a bunch of people over history who believes that "be fruitful and multiply" is a good idea, and we've over populated this earth. Leaving fewer natural resources.

  •  I didn't realize they still used real down (0+ / 0-)

    I figured they used that fake stuff.

    I don't own a down jacket and never have. When it comes time for me to buy a new jacket (I usually just inherit them from others who don't want theirs anymore) I'll make sure not to buy down.

    Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility (not an original but rather apt)

    by terrypinder on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 04:55:26 AM PST

  •  I see you pixed an LLBean jacket. (0+ / 0-)

    Company notorious for its support of RW causes.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 07:11:40 AM PST

  •  This has been on my mind a lot lately............. (0+ / 0-)

    I am shopping for a new winter sleeping bag.  

    It is claimed that the machines used to pluck dead geese damage the down feathers.  Damaged feathers are not as lofty.  Loft translates to "Fill Power", and it's all about Fill Power.

    The quality argument for plucking live geese doesn't make sense to me.  Why not hand pluck the dead geese (they're infinitely more compliant), and quit torturing the live ones.

    As an aside....  I used to hunt geese in in southern IL.  Great spot for it.  There were picking sheds that set up on the side of the road.  For two or three dollars (close to 30 years ago) they would clean and hand pluck your birds.  The pickers collected and sold the down.

    •  I too have been thinking of it, I still backpack (0+ / 0-)

      and I want something light, for late fall which means temps down to -10. The synthetics just seem to be cold and big and heavy.

      I think maybe the dead geese are plucked by machine and it damages. Seems like there ought to be a way.

      When we slaughter chickens my wife plucks some feathers off under the neck then drains the blood to make a sauce. They never mind the plucking under the neck. But then chickens are bred over thousands of years to be docile and it's just a little under the neck not the whole body. Chickens are mean nasty little  creatures, about had enough of chicken ranching.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:03:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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