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Unsecured firearms increase private and public risks of injury and death. Children may find them and shoot themselves or their siblings, (see Daniel Case's diaries, here, and here, or David Waldman's GunFAIL series.) Unsecured guns are easily stolen by criminals, who source a majority of their guns from friends and family. We don't even know how many guns are lost or stolen. Why? Many jurisdictions don't bother to trace all guns that are recovered in crimes.

We largely rely on an honor system. It' up to gun owners own personal ethics and integrity whether or not to report a lost or stolen gun to the police. When embarrassed gun owner Dave Evans left his gun in the bathroom of the Missouri state capitol it was gone when he went back to retrieve it. He asked his staff to notify the police right away. That is what a responsible citizen should do, but in Missouri state law did not require him to do that.


Only eleven states require gun owners to report
lost or stolen guns to the police.


~~~~~~~

CT,  DE,  DC,  IL,  MD,  MA,  MI,  NJ,  NY,  OH,  RI


New Jersey is the only state that imposes civil liability on gun owners who lose their guns.

What about your state?

Does your state require gun owners to report lost or stolen guns and ammo to the police?

This is an open thread.


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The Daily Kos Firearms Law and Policy group studies actions for reducing firearm deaths and injuries in a manner that is consistent with the current Supreme Court interpretation of the Second Amendment. We also cover the many positive aspects of gun ownership, including hunting, shooting sports, and self-defense.

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We have adopted Wee Mama's and akadjian's guidance on communicating.  But most important, be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.

Fri Dec 20, 2013 at  8:31 AM PT: Answers to Terminology Matters: A, C, D, E, F are pistols. B is a revolver.


Poll

When a gun goes missing - can a gun owner be required to report the missing gun to the police?

13%6 votes
17%8 votes
4%2 votes
13%6 votes
0%0 votes
13%6 votes
0%0 votes
6%3 votes
22%10 votes
8%4 votes

| 45 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for mandatory reporting (18+ / 0-)

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 08:00:51 PM PST

  •  A lost gun scenario was posed in a comment (10+ / 0-)

    last week in this diary by Meteor Blades.

    [A] firearm [is] missing from my safe. (4+ / 0-)
    It's 4:30PM on a Friday.
    I look around my house, on the off chance I left it somewhere.
    It's not there.
    I look in my vehicle.
    It's not there.
    I call friends and family who I might have loaned the firearm to.
    It's not there OR there.
    It's now Saturday afternoon. Let's say 2PM. I report it stolen. Where's the problem with this?

    Hypothetical missing gun

    (h/t KVoimakas)

    My answer may be found here.

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 17, 2013 at 08:04:19 PM PST

  •  Terminology matters - Can you name that gun? (7+ / 0-)

    In David Waldman's GunFAIL diary this week, these 6 handguns were some of those recovered at Airports security screening last week.

    Six of 37 guns discovered by TSA agents at airports across the country last week.
    Six of 37 guns discovered by TSA agents at airports across the country last week.
    For each gun in the picture, do you know which type of gun it is?

    Top Row: A, B, C
    Bottom Row: D, E, F

    Possible answers: Semi-automatic Pistol, Derringer, Revolver, Pistol, Shot Pistol, Flare Gun

    Answers will be provided at the end of the diary tomorrow.

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 04:29:06 AM PST

    •  for a guess, I would say a hammerless .32 (3+ / 0-)

      either Colt or S&W and 1 9MM semi-auto and 2 semi-auto .25s and 2 semi-auto .380s.  I would note that at least 4 of the guns appear to be what is popularly called a "Saturday Night Special" and may be knock-offs of more popular brands of semi-autos.  It is hard to identify the caliber and brand of a gun solely from pics.

      Off topic perhaps, I picked up a Dan Wesson .414 yesterday, which would not lend itself to concealment.  Per state law, it was transported in my trunk to my home and then secured.

      •  It's an open thread - everything is on topic (3+ / 0-)

        That quiz is really intended for newbies to start to master the most basic language and distinguishing features. I'm glad you took it a level further to actually id the manufacturer and model.

        Which ones look like Saturday Night Specials?

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:50:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The smaller semi-autos that appear to (3+ / 0-)

          be .380 or .25.  However this is a guess from the pics; they could be mainstream manufacturers instead of knock-offs.
          I also confess to being prejudiced against semi-autos and the smaller calibers.  I would argue that a .357 is the smallest personal carry a person should consider though I admit to carrying a .38 because of muscle degeneration in my shoulder,making a lighter carry necessary.  My son in law carries a 1911 .45 semi-auto

    •  all semi auto pistols but B: a revolver (3+ / 0-)

      I couldn't tell you the brands

      Happy just to be alive

      by exlrrp on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:43:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  as if it matters... (6+ / 0-)

      Semi-automatic Pistol, Revolver, Semi-automatic Pistol, Semi-automatic Pistol, Semi-automatic Pistol, Semi-automatic Pistol.
      Who cares what the technical term is? That's a dodge used by gunloons to derail the conversation.

      If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

      by CwV on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:46:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you were a victim of crime (5+ / 0-)

        If you were a victim of crime, wouldn't it be helpful to be able to say to the police, it was a revolver, the perp stuck a revolver in my face?

        If you find a gun in the bathroom and have to report it to the police, wouldn't it be good to be able to tell them what kind of gun?

        These are guns picked up at the TSA. This is a little opportunity for newbies who want to study gun law to become familiar with the basic terminology.

        What's a revolver?
        What's a pistol?
        What's an automatic pistol?

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:56:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not really. (5+ / 0-)

          I have had guns pointed in my face and, honestly, at that point, it doesn't matter what kind or caliber gun it is, it can throw a piece of metal through the bones of my face into my brain and kill me. One shot target pistol or 11 shot automatic, doesn't matter. The first sbullet will do the trick.

          If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

          by CwV on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 06:02:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It matters, just like remembering facial features (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber, notrouble

            of your attacker, and what they were wearing, so you can accurately report as much information as possible.

            E.g. Hypothetical report to police: A revolver was stuck in my face when I came out of the ATM and they stole my wallet and my cash from the ATM...

            And it turns out that a few counties away a gun owner had reported a revolver stolen from his glovebox while he was attending a football game.

            That's a lot more useful to solve the crime than - "He stuck a gun in my face."

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 06:16:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Helpful yes, but is it realistic? (5+ / 0-)

          Your question seems tangential to your own diary.  

          I would expect only those who handle guns often would be good candidates for this quiz.   Even then....heck, at least one kid was shot recently by police because he carried a toy gun!  "Officer, what type of rifle was he carrying?"  "Hasbro, perhaps."

          I've never faced a gun in a crime but I expect I would be very stressed and distracted and thinking about a lot of things other than the type of handheld gun pointed in my direction.  

          e.g., I have witnessed crimes involving cars. Unless the car is clearly a unique model like, say, a Corvette, Mini Cooper, etc., I'm hard-pressed to identify anything more than color, size, number of doors, and whether late model or not.   I have tried to memorize license plate numbers but the stress and urgent desire to call 911 makes that difficult too.

          Yes, it would be helpful if I could identify the types of guns in the picture but it's not realistic to expect I would....even if I were to study and memorize this stuff, I'd also have to rehearse for and have good observation skills during the stress of the event.  And if I were to recover a lost gun, I'll let the police arrive ASAP and identify it themselves.

          •  It is tangential and the beginning of an effort (5+ / 0-)

            to help readers who have no exposure to firearms to acquire some familiarity with basic terminology. Goal is to break down/break through the jargon barriers that keep people from participating in the discussions about guns that matter to them, whether here at DKos or out in real life.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 06:39:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK for background, but wouldn't a good ID of ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LilithGardener

              ... the perp, rather than the weapon, be much more valuable to the police at the time of the early interview of the victim? Especially if you're thinking of trying to divine the difference between two makes of same-calibre handguns?

              2014 IS COMING. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

              by TRPChicago on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 12:57:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Hmm. (3+ / 0-)

      S&W M&P

      Break action revolver. Iver Johnson perhaps?

      Kel Tec (either a P3AT or P32)

      Kel Tec (same as above)

      No idea. Semi auto.

      Walther P22

      •  Jimenez Arms (3+ / 0-)

        I first thought Lorcin.  Wrong trigger guard.
        Davis.  Yep, that crap.  Nope.  
        Grip has vertical grooves on a Davis.

        Hmmm... what's another $100 piece of shit?
        Oh yeah... Jimenez.

        •  See, that's why n00bs think you guys are (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Oh Mary Oh, notrouble

          speaking a foreign language.

          Because you are!

          The quiz was aiming for elementary level. Which one is a revolver? Which are pistols? Hoping someone will ask, "What's a Derringer?" You guys crack me playing "name that gun" at the advanced level.

          It's all good.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:39:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  A Lexus, Yugo and Prius hold up a bar... (3+ / 0-)

            "yeah it was a four-door something or other".

            Yellow with black and white checkers along the side?
            "No.  Darker."
            Thus we eliminated Medallion cabs.

            Blue and white with lights on the top like that one?
            "No.  Smaller, no... well, I don't remember any, lights."
            Thus we eliminated any marked NYPD police cars.

            This obsession with fine detail is habitual.
            I've a keen eye for the obvious.

          •  You asked. (0+ / 0-)

            When you got the answer, you chose to use that to attack the person who provided that answer.

            And you wonder why people have come to expect less-than-honest debate from you -- this is all the example I need to know that you are not interested in a real discussion.

            Thank you for providing the proof of that.

            "No amount of belief makes something a fact." --James Randi

            by theatre goon on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 10:56:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That was hardly an "attack." (Or maybe I have... (5+ / 0-)

              ... wrong which comment you're referring to.) Whichever, I'm thinking ...

              ... that this thread, like others in FLAP, is an honest attempt to get conversations going - in every sense "a real discussion" - especially vital in a subject area like this where people are coming from such a variety of knowledge, viewpoints, background and Yes, thickness of skin.

              2014 IS COMING. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

              by TRPChicago on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 01:07:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  That wasn't an attack. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miggles

              An attack:

              You call yourself "authoritative", claim court-adjudicated competency, yet you needed three guesses to obtain the correct make and model of the firearm? Even-after being given a 1 inch x 1 inch low resolution photograph?!  
              Go back to Redstate where your incompetency will go unnoticed.
              That would be an attack.
            •  Get a sense of humor, son. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LilithGardener, Miggles

              Pretty sure she was joking.  She was saying they overshot the mark, by going for the advanced level when she was just aiming for basic level knowledge.

              I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

              by coquiero on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 04:34:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That "It's all good" should have been a give away (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                coquiero, Miggles

                that I was teasing. As I am known to tease people I care about, from time to time, once in awhile, you know, not every day....

                "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 04:49:16 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Today's weather report is cloudy and gray... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miggles, coquiero

              again.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 04:47:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  "What's a Derringer?" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener

            well, generally, it's this cheap piece of crap where you pull the trigger twice and then throw it at the attacker, with the blind hope that you knock them out.

            To be first in the soil, which erupts in the coil, of trees veins and grasses all brought to a boil. -- The Maxx

            by notrouble on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:22:21 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Hi KV, You never came back after posing the hypo (3+ / 0-)

        What gives? I spent time writing a thorough answer, and then you never even bothered to acknowledge it or read it. I was disappointed because I thought you had posed a good hypothetical. And then you just left me hanging.

        Here's the answer I posted in the original thread - please tear this answer apart folks. Today I'm listening more than commenting.

        o     Interesting hypothetical - unless I'm missing it (0+ / 0-)

        Did you intentionally load the bases and then lob me a real softball, outside and low? Because this one seems too easy, and here comes a right fielder over the fence, an easy grand slam.

        You may disagree. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what see - only from the info given and DC v Heller.

        First let's define a few unknowns.

        1. Jurisdiction - whether it's required by law to report lost or stolen guns to the police.

        2. Whether you have any medical condition that causes forgetfulness, or whether you're an alcoholic who has blackouts, or whether your poker buddies are shitty people and you lost your gun one night when you were rip roaring drunk, and didn't know to stop gambling at the end of you cash in pocket.

        Knowns:

        1. Filing a false police report is crime
        The gun wasn't lost. The gun is missing.

        2. No activity in that list is protected under the Second Amendment.

        3. Much of what you describe is sufficient proof that the law should be this:
        Lose track of a gun? Immediately report it MISSING to the police, giving full serial number, and all necessary information. That starts your liability clock grace period. If you in fact locate your missing gun within the next 24 hours you must turn it in to the police for a ballistics test, so they have that info on file in case your gun was used in a crime while it was out of your custody.

        Fine, remedial training, and temporary loss of RKBA for first offense (temp surrender guns all guns), say a month or two minimum.

        Additional sanctions depending on the severity of any crimes committed while the gun was on its joy ride.

        Points on your gun license.

        The point being - none of what you describe is protected activity under the 2A. Your failure to be a responsible gun owner is a teachable moment.

        The reason such a scheme would likely be constitutional is that it begins Due Process at the right moment - at the moment there is clear proof of incapacity to safely exercise your RKBA.

        4. Mandatory medical screening
        When a gun owner has no idea what happened to one of their guns, it seems like it might be a good idea to find out if you have any medical condition, addictions, etc. that are causing you to have blackouts or whether you have a brain tumor, or whether you have early symptoms of dementia.

        None of the above is punishment.
        It's intervention at the point before a small and rare medical problem inevitably leads to a rare and unnecessary firearm injury or death, for your or for someone else in your community.

        Readers are invited to tear this naive analysis apart.

        Feel free to justify your argument on any basis that matters to you, law, logic, ethics, statistics, religion, or any other criteria.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:46:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And what I had meant to say in No. 1 (0+ / 0-)

          The gun wasn't stolen.

          To expand on that a little. It's not even actually lost.
          It's just missing because a gun owner either has some very bad habits re gun ownership and us, or he's having a medical problem that is impairing his memory.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:49:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  What cracks me up is how often the gun (3+ / 0-)

      aficionados get confused about which end of the gun discharges the bullets.

      And I do believe these guns in this picture were guns that were FORGOTTEN altogether. Gun aficionados know everything about the gun, but seem to draw a blank as to the exact location of the gun.

      Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

      by 88kathy on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:09:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Warrants a medical exam, in my opinion (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        88kathy, Joy of Fishes, Oh Mary Oh

        We deserve better, than i can't remember who I loaned my gun to. It means you have too many guns or too few functioning brain cells, or both.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:20:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's the 'haw, haw, haw that was close gun laws'. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener, Oh Mary Oh

          We treat our guns like video game controllers and blame violent video games for the mayhem.

          Well, I don't know where it is, who was playing with it last?
          RFID for the I got no idee where the dang thing went?

          Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

          by 88kathy on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:26:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  None of the Above? What's your answer? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Glen The Plumber, Oh Mary Oh

    I chose none of the above, because they should call their local police department, NOT 911.

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:32:01 AM PST

  •  Oregon doesn't do it (5+ / 0-)

    Require us to report missing or stolen guns.  I sure would, like I'd report a burglary of my house, which is how one of my guns might go missing.
    Not all my guns are locked up. I have  bolt operated WWI era rifles hanging on my walls. I don't have ammo for most of them. The other stuff is secure, don't want to say how or where but it is.
    Put me as unsure about requiring stolen/missing guns having to be reported. I would think everyone would and should but as to make it a legal requirement I dunno.

    Happy just to be alive

    by exlrrp on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:40:12 AM PST

    •  I report anything stolen of value more than (5+ / 0-)

      $150.00, since that is about the amount of money needed to buy a distribution level of drugs, I have been told by law enforcement people. Here at least. It matters because if the item is ever found in the hands of someone who has been identified as a hard drug dealer, there is a report of it, and the police can use that to target drug theft rings.

      Below that dollar amount, its important to report anything which has the potential to harm a child; a knife, a batch of mole poison, a lawnmower, a boomerang, etc. That is so that the owner of the item, me, is not blamed for the misuse or harm caused by the use of the item. If people are not doing this, then they are morally responsible for what happens to innocent people.

       Requiring people to take moral responsibility for their items is the basis of much of our law, and in the case of guns, rat poison, knives, lawnmowers, it should be required.

      Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

      by OregonOak on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:51:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  One way to think about it is to ask (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miggles, exlrrp, Glen The Plumber

      what would I do if I misplaced an envelope with $1000 cash, or thought my wallet with $500 in it had been stolen.

      I'd report that right away, as would most people.

      The 24 hour grace period doesn't make sense in that frame.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:58:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you call the police for a missing (3+ / 0-)

    gun, they will promptly fill out a report. Which will be filed. That's basically all they will do. What else can they do?

  •  another problem is that many people who own (7+ / 0-)

    guns don't realize that they own a gun because the weapon comes to them via probate or they just find it in a deceased relative's possessions.  I would suggest, if there is a national registry of firearms with active oversight, that it should be linked to the database of death certificates issued in each county so every firearm that belongs to a deceased person can be transferred to the legal heir or at least have its disposition tracked.

    I don't think there is any sort of similar system currently in place to track firearms that transferred via probate

  •  As soon as the "loss" is discovered. (6+ / 0-)

    And there should be liability for the gun owner.
    And if the gun is used in a crime, that should also redound to the gun owner unless the "loss" was reported before the crime took place.
    The problem with all of this is that there is no registration of gun ownership.
    So a gun owner that loses his gun doesn't have much compelling them to report it because the gun can't be traced back to him.
    There is no mechanism like the transfer of title on a motor vehicle, no record of the chain of ownership when a "legitimate" gun becomes a crime gun.
    And the gunloons absolutely refuse to even consider this simple measure, spouting the paranoid fantasy that registration of gun ownership is tantamount to confiscation.

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 05:44:12 AM PST

  •  As I live in Texas (4+ / 0-)

    I am betting we don't have to do anything but go get another gun. Which is pretty easy to get in this state. Next time or legislature meets they will most likely pass a law requiring a gun dispenser be installed at every school.  

    "The next time everyone will pay for it equally, and there won't be any more Chosen Nations, or any Others. Poor bastards all." ~The Boomer Bible

    by just another vet on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 06:08:33 AM PST

    •  Gun dispenser instructions - clearly posted (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber

      Good guy -- break glass and commence firing
      Bad guy -- stick 'em up

      That otta do it.

      Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

      by 88kathy on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:33:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ?? How about this (3+ / 0-)

        Your 2 choices make no sense to me.

        How about this:

        Good guy uses credit card, and the purchase is automatically recorded at the NSA, bad guy breaks glass and steals the gun.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:35:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I was talking about (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber, LilithGardener
          a gun dispenser be installed at every school.  
          as the commenter suggested.

          You are probably talking about the gun dispensers installed outside banks, etc., which would soon follow.

          Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

          by 88kathy on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:41:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Banks will hand them out (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener, 88kathy

            with each new account open.

            And then there are the ATM's for after hour gun withdraws.

            "The next time everyone will pay for it equally, and there won't be any more Chosen Nations, or any Others. Poor bastards all." ~The Boomer Bible

            by just another vet on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:48:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Guns are like cash (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              just another vet

              Recall the 109 laws?

              I started going through that article more carefully and it's not as bad as it sounds from the numbers. About 20 of the "loosen" laws CCW permit confidentiality laws, and it looks like another half dozen involve reciprocity agreements.

              And I think CCW confidentiality is a good thing, because guns are almost like cash. Would you want to advertise - $500 and up "near cash" available at my house?

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:57:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh I agree. That information does not need to be (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener, 88kathy

                made public. Which I do recall happened somewhere.

                I am just making a little fun of my fellow Texans' need to have as many guns as humanly possible. It's a little over the top sometimes.

                "The next time everyone will pay for it equally, and there won't be any more Chosen Nations, or any Others. Poor bastards all." ~The Boomer Bible

                by just another vet on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 08:02:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And those aren't gun control laws either (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  just another vet, 88kathy

                  Neither are they gun safety laws.

                  They are gun privacy laws, and they are for gun owners. I think we Dems can get behind privacy rights for CCW permittees.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 08:12:10 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually gun owners NOT keeping their guns (0+ / 0-)

                    private is my first and second concern. Keep your peanut butter out of my chocolate and I'll keep my chocolate out of your peanut butter.

                    Reciprocal Privacy boilerplate

                    1. Improper storage of a gun - loss of physical possession of the gun - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

                    2. Improper handling of a gun - gun discharged inappropriately - no matter the outcome - loss of privilege gun ownership for many many years.

                    Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

                    by 88kathy on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 11:23:54 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Penalty needs to scale with risk (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      88kathy

                      for it to have any chance of passing constitutional scrutiny.

                      Lose your gun - recovered soon thereafter without incident - promptly reported in both incidents? You surrender your gun for ballistics (which you pay for), face a fine, and remedial training.

                      Second time, .... + lose RKBA for 3 months.

                      Hmmm, chocolate/peanut butter could be a good one to develop.

                      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                      by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 11:49:03 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  For sure but any penalty could keep their heads in (0+ / 0-)

                        the game.

                        Lose your gun in a school bathroom for a few minutes?
                        Lose your gun on the merry go round?

                        I have much more of a tendency to lean to what it is they lost. A deadly weapon. Right now it's a Dude Where's My Car chuckle fest. So I guess anything would be an improvement.

                        After all the Constitution does say KEEP. I just am real stubborn about that. Why did they spell out KEEP unless they meant KEEP. Everything in the 2A that requires any effort is lost in the plastic deformation.

                        If they really didn't mean KEEP, why are we thinking they really meant ARMS?

                        Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

                        by 88kathy on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 12:04:50 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Please tell me the bank (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas, LilithGardener

              so I can open an account there.

              RKBA :-)

              To be first in the soil, which erupts in the coil, of trees veins and grasses all brought to a boil. -- The Maxx

              by notrouble on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:29:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Next Gen automats at rest stops along the high way (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            just another vet, 88kathy
            You are probably talking about the gun dispensers installed outside banks, etc., which would soon follow

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 07:53:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  A reporting requirement seems logical. (5+ / 0-)

    My state (Kentucky) does not, to the best of my knowledge, require police reports to be filed for missing firearms.

    If I were to write the statute, I'd go with something like this:

    * Local law enforcement must be notified within 48 hours of the firearm "going missing."  The report must include the manufacturer, model, and serial number of the firearm, as well as the date/time of "last confirmed possession" by the owner.

    * Filing a proper report within 48 hours will immunize the owner from liability for "third party" crimes in which the firearm was employed while the firearm was missing.

    * If the firearm is recovered by the owner, local law enforcement must be notified of the recovery within 48 hours.

    * If the firearm is recovered, ballistic evaluation will be conducted, and the results will be maintained by law enforcement for a period of 1 year (to be consulted in the investigation of crimes occurring during the "missing" period).

    * Failure to report the loss of a firearm, or to report the recovery of firearm reported as missing, will be a misdemeanor in the first offense and a felony in any subsequent offenses.  (In my state, convicted felons cannot own firearms.)

    * Failure to report the loss of a firearm shall render the owner liable for negligence if the firearm is employed in a crime by a third party.

    Those are the basics - and none of this infringes on the Second Amendment.  What you do with your firearms is your business, but a missing firearm is a public problem.

    The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

    by wesmorgan1 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 06:17:23 AM PST

    •  Thank you - why 48 hours rather than 24 hours? nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 06:20:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was accounting for things like... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener, notrouble

        ...weekend travel, Sundays, etc.  I think we should also allow for "lost" firearms that really become "oh, cousin Steve borrowed it to go hunting and forgot to tell me" - that isn't uncommon in rural areas.

        The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

        by wesmorgan1 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 09:28:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sympathetic to that culture, but (0+ / 0-)

          find it problematic for reasons that I stated in the diary. Youth and teens face very high gun homicide and gun suicide risk, and what you describe is not responsible storage, IMO.

          We need to improve awareness, and more secure storage, because even if homicide is lower in rural areas, gun suicide is much higher and is rising in rural areas.

          Public education may be the way to go, as a start, so that materials can be targeted to vulnerable populations.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 09:33:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Given that this isn't likely to be Federal... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener

            ...I'm sure that different jurisdictions will have different numbers.  I don't have a problem if NYC goes for 24 hours while largely-rural Kentucky goes for 48.  

            Having said that, however, I'm curious - why do you think a 24-hour period (as opposed to 48) would have a significant effect on crimes/suicides involving guns?   Is there evidence that those who steal guns for the purpose of committing crimes/suicide do so well in advance, creating something of a window for intervention/deterrence?

            You might find this Harvard School of Public Health data and this Slate article useful - but there's nothing in either to suggest that a reporting requirement of 24 hours would have a more significant deterrent effect than would one of 48 hours.

            I'm not saying this because I oppose a 24-hour requirement - but rather because, as we both know, this is going to be an uphill battle in many jurisdictions, and changing from 24 to 48 hours is a likely area of compromise.  I think if we're going to argue for a 24-hour requirement, we'd better have some decent data with which to support the argument.

            The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

            by wesmorgan1 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 11:03:17 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Those are good questions and I'm not arguing (0+ / 0-)

              an action plan to change. At the first level I'd be happy if it was required on some time frame everywhere. Period. Beyond that, I like your concept that different environments have different risks/cost of policy implementation, and could have different laws.

              I think immediate reporting in NYC is warranted because a) many more people are not allowed to own guns in the first place, b)  it's much easier for an unsecured gun to "escape" and c) there are many, many more people at risk from a loose gun in the wrong hand.

              But you are right. Some guy on a ranch in Wyoming has a gun missing and his hired hand is out in the field so he can't check if it's in the truck... Sure. For him is would be ridiculous to disallow the time for the truck to return, and probably have the gun inside.

              I guess where I'm going is that gun security needs to be tighter in some environments, e.g. homes with children and teens, and in homes where children and teens visit. They are not to blame for their curiosity and their inability to resist playing with with a gun.

              Since most criminals get their guns from family and friends, it makes sense to educate/require gun owners to do more to secure their guns. It's not the random stranger who will steal their gun. It's the co-worker with a gambling habit that knows you leave it locked in the glovebox.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 11:18:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Reporting seems like (5+ / 0-)

    a good idea, but I can't say the police have ever seemed very concerned or done much when I've reported things being stolen (like my son's bike a couple of months ago). But, can't hurt to require it to be reported.

  •  New Jersey Civil Liability (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener, Glen The Plumber

    Worth mentioning is that statute applies only to a registered assault weapon is used in the commission of a crime.

    Does anyone know if anyone has ever been sued under that statute?  Basic searches didn't seem to turn up anything, and you'd think since 1990, there'd have been time for something relevant.

  •  Seems like a solution... (2+ / 0-)

    in search of a problem.  I'm sure the main reason most aren't reported missing is because the owners don't expect them to be recovered.  You can file a report but there really isn't much the police can do.  It's not like they're going to lockdown the city to find your missing gun and it's not going to stop whoever stole from using it.  And if it was used in a crime(which is just about the only the way the cops are going to find it) I doubt you get it back since it would be evidence.

    That being said, a law like this wouldn't hurt and certainly doesn't infringe on anybody's right.  I think it would be effective in stopping/discovering straw purchasers since it would look real suspicious if the same person reported having guns stolen from them several times a year.

  •  A grand bargain on Concealed Carry v Bkgd Chks (0+ / 0-)

    What would you give up in exchange for Universal Background Checks?

    What should gun-control advocates give up in exchange for that National Carry Reciprocity Act?

    KV's diary today re current proposal:
    Grand Bargain on Gun Control

    Background (n00bs start here):
    What is Reciprocity - Introduction to Concealed Carry Weapons Law

    Concealed Carry Law Petitions SCOTUS - Woollard v Gallagher

    Constitutionally protected RKBA? Political speach? or Public Menace?

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 18, 2013 at 12:36:59 PM PST

  •  Most law abiding gun owners would report them (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener, FrankRose

    stolen and/or lost if for no other reason than to claim them on insurance.  Guns are not cheap, most of the time, and you would want the proof in order to replace them.  I would report as soon as I even thought they were missing, as my insurance requires it.  Even if I didn't have any insurance, I would still report,  in hopes the police and their detective work would give me some chance to recover them.

    Criminals, on the other hand, or people who are not legally allowed to own weapons, would never call to report them lost or stolen, because....well, they are criminals and are not a big fan of the police.  

    Any law mandating guns be reported immediately would only be obeyed by those who already have a very high likelihood of reporting them anyway. Criminals would ignore the law, just as they ignore the law that says they can't own them in the first place.  Thus, I do not see a big help in anything with this kind of mandate.

    •  Hi Bailey thanks for explaining who would be (0+ / 0-)

      affected by the law, and how you see it. Is that why some gun owners would see such a law as a political issue with no benefit.

      I'm sure you're right in the big picture of what responsible gun owners would do, and that criminals would not report guns that they were not legally allowed to have in the first place. But I don't see gun ownership in such black/white terms.

      It seems to me that our hypothetical gun owner is not responsible, is in fact rather careless, and might have a medical problem with memory or cognitive function that really should be looked at. He hasn't broken any laws so he's not a criminal.

      His sloppy storage/lending habits are not acceptable. Are we supposed to continue giving someone like that a presumption of "responsible law abiding gun owner?"

      His missing gun may have already been used in a crime, and he can just go get another one. Without a reporting requirement there is no mechanism to intervene until after someone gets shot.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Thu Dec 19, 2013 at 08:16:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I will add, that I am not opposed to a law of this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener

    nature, as I said...I would report anyway.  I just don't see how it helps in the scheme of things....or even increase the amount of lost or stolen guns reported.

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