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And now I live in fear in this Florida, USA. I'm reluctant to go out of the house because I know at some level that some person might object to my walk, my looks, my clothing - something - and shoot me dead claiming I made that person fearful for their life.

We live by the Code of the Six-Gun here, but we call it "Stand Your Ground". Dozens of homicides (75 by latest count) have been excused on this Florida because our state chooses death over life. Our local newscasts more often than not, it seems, start out like this:

"Gunshots rang out in the __ neighborhood today and a man/woman/pet is dead."

I can't move. I'm too old, too poor and too limited by COPD. We have elderly pets we've had for more than 13 years in this house, I can't find the will to disrupt their lives that much. So I'm stuck.

In fear.

In Florida.

Originally posted to Aged Writer on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 05:49 PM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Welcome to "Freedom". (13+ / 0-)

    Maybe we can't stop the flow of PAC money, but sure as hell can poison the well.

    by here4tehbeer on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 05:52:26 PM PST

  •  Hey! Old guy! Your clothing scares (7+ / 0-)

    me so much that I fear for my life!  What is that?  '70s chic?  Bang!

  •  I have that fear- and I live in NY (5+ / 0-)

    Every time I go to the mall, I'm aware that at any time, someone will walk in with an AK-47 and open fire.

    Growing old is inevitable...Growing up is purely optional

    by grannycarol on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 06:08:45 PM PST

  •  And you think... (15+ / 0-)

    the people carrying guns are paranoid??  You're more likely to be struck by lightning!

  •  If the nuts have there way (18+ / 0-)

    we will all have to live in fear. Bad laws like this will be on the books in every state. I can't imagine being such a coward that I had to carry a gun with me all the time and being so afraid of everyone that I would shoot first and never ask any questions. I know 3 people who carry guns and all of them seem to spend a lot of time looking for trouble where there is none.  I don't have a problem with sane people owning guns. But guns should not be carried in public places. A person right to own a gun should not supersede another person right to live. And that is the problem some gun owner believe that there right to carry a gun should come at the expense of everyones else right to live in safety. Sorry gun owners but the myth of good guys with guns stopping bad guy with guns is just that a myth

    Dogs and Philosophers do the greatest good and get the fewest rewards (Diogenes)

    by Out There on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 06:17:01 PM PST

  •  I really hope this is hyperbole because the (19+ / 0-)

    actual reality is you are considerably safer in Florida than much of the U.S. and huge chunks of the world.

    Violence is highly neighborhood and "occupation" specific.  Truly random violence is rare.  Back in the day there was an old saying, if you don't play you don't pay and was usually somewhat adhered to....

    Any way you slice it violent crime and murder are way down from when I was a kid in the early 70's yet that era is regarded as the "safe" times when as kids we could run and play in happy abandon safe from all predators....Actual statistics show a very different story.

    3.9 people out of 100,000 died from gunshot in Florida in 2010 according to wiki total murder rate of 5 per 100,000.  To me, that's not something you need to be hiding in fear from....A car accident is 3 times as likely to kill you as a gunshot is. Do you still drive?

    Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
    I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
    Emiliano Zapata

    by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 06:22:26 PM PST

    •  So what if it is sincere? (12+ / 0-)

      What is happening in Florida and other gun crazy states is downright creepy and grotesque.

      •  what? That violent crime rates are at their lowest (18+ / 0-)

        damn near ever?

        That's creepy and grotesque?

        Or is the media coverage that pumps the oddball violent act down our throats 24/7/365 what is creepy and grotesque...

        Considering that actual crime levels are so low and still dropping as are so called "accidental" shootings btw, I'd say what's grotesque is corporations hyping and playing up the fear for ratings and money, just like the nra and the brady group types.....

        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
        Emiliano Zapata

        by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 06:54:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not playing this game with you. (9+ / 0-)

          Not everybody has to be comfortable or even thankful to be living with the modern US gun culture.

          •  You are right, they don't, that however doesn't (16+ / 0-)

            mean they get to legislate away their "uncomfortable" feelings at the expense of their fellow citizens.

            Reality is what it is, everyone is welcome to their own level of comfort with reality, but it's still reality.

            Actually over three times the likelihood of being killed in a car accident over by a gun.  If I allowed that level of danger to control my life I would never leave the house.

            Now there are neighborhoods where the risks are much higher, also there are neighborhoods where the traffic risk is much higher.  

            Everything is a risk, we must look at it realistically or we will end up as vclib described.

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 07:14:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  While I do agree (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber

              I once again had to reread the diary. I don't see the topic of legislation mentioned.

            •  not when you include suicide.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber

              which most RKBA of course think is somehow not related to firearms ownership and can't be lowered in any way by limiting firearms ownership to the mentally ill.

              You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

              by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:43:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I thought liberals support one's judgment in (4+ / 0-)

                taking their own life or assisted suicide? Are you saying yes, but not with a firearm???

                •  When it is a rational decision (0+ / 0-)

                  If someone has an illness and there is no hope of recovery, I think many would support suicide. But, I think we all know that many people commit suicide at one moment in time when things seem bleak, but if they had just waited a minute, they would change their minds. Guns make it really easy to kill yourself quickly. And there is the added danger from guns, that sometimes when people want to kill themselves, they choose to take other people with them. Guns make that really easy, too.

                  Examples:
                  My dad's cousin held his family at gunpoint before he turned the gun on himself.

                  When my dad was 9, his uncle was killed by a neighbor when they were both drunk on moonshine. The neighbor walked down the road on past my dad who was walking toward his uncle's house and then killed himself.

                  My brother was a schizophrenic. He had episodes of aggression. Not sure if the aggression was from the schizophrenia or the pairing of the schizophrenia and living  in a world where arguing and fighting was accepted as a way of settling differences. Now, he didn't use a gun to kill himself; he used a knife--because the knife is what he found hidden under a mattress. He did not find the ammunition that my father had hidden. In the weeks before his suicide, my brother attacked our older brother with a stick and fought with our nephew. (That nephew has anger management issues, so not sure who might have started that fight. And yes, that nephew still has that issue and he has a gun). Our brother threatened our father. Neighbors had requested that he not visit anymore even though they liked him. He had become scary. There is a strong possibility that other people would have died if he had found that ammunition. And no, I did not and do not support his decision to kill himself. I don't blame him or hate him, but I want him to be alive because I think he still had the possibility of happiness in his life if he had just waited. And, I don't really even know if he understood what he was doing.

                  My ex brother-in-law had 3 stepchildren that he raised. The 12 year old son of one of those children killed himself with a gun in September of 2012. It was ruled a suicide. The gun belonged to his grandfather (not my ex brother-in-law).  

                  All of these suicides were unnecessary. And with the exception of my brother, I don't think they would have happened if the gun had not been there. And in my brother's case, access to the ammunition could have made the situation even worse. And remember not everybody with guns realizes that they have a family member who might be dangerous to others. They don't hide the ammunition.

        •  Here's some reality: Countries with gun control (10+ / 0-)

          have very few deaths by gun.

          But feel free to go on about lightning strikes, crime rates, 'neighborhoods', 'occupations'... just understand you're fooling no one, and really just talking to yourself.

          •  Alas, but their suicide rates are higher than ours (10+ / 0-)

            In fact, we're #33 on the list:

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            Oh, and then there's this reality:

            No Proof Gun Laws Reduce Violence

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:15:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What you cite has nothing to do with the issue, (6+ / 1-)

              which you won't face. It's what I mean when I say you gun nuts are only talking to yourselves.

            •  You lost me. (7+ / 0-)

              What in the world does suicide - a personal decision of desperation made for any number of reasons - have to do with the gun violence in the United States?

              •  It really doesn't except when people like mookins (12+ / 0-)

                conflate the homicide and suicide numbers, add them together and blame the whole mess on the gun itself.  Not the society that teaches violence is the answer, not the person who makes the individual decision to pick up that inanimate hunk of polymer and steel and pull the trigger.....nope, it's all the fault of that chunk of steel.....

                Just a couple upthread that poster claimed 30k deaths because of guns....never mentioning that 16-17k of those are suicide and our murder with a firearm numbers are under 15k...That's why often people will point out the actual numbers are very different than claimed.

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 09:32:39 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  The abusive poster I replied to made a false (8+ / 0-)

                argument.  Gun control would reduce gun deaths.

                Suicides account for most gun deaths

                How will gun control stop what you correctly describe as "a personal decision of desperation"???

                It won't.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 09:37:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Data is very clear..... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  coquiero, Glen The Plumber

                  that limiting access to firearms reduces the suicide rate.  

                  Harvard School of Public Health even has a web page which discusses the research on this called "Means Matters."

                  In discussing suicide and firearms ownership, they state:

                  The harrowing fact of suicide demands a story: “Why?” But from a public health perspective, an equally illuminating question is “How?”

                  Intent matters, but so does method, because the method by which one attempts suicide has a great deal to do with whether one lives or dies. What makes guns the most common mode of suicide in this country? The answer: They are both lethal and accessible. About one in three American households contains a gun.

                  The price of this easy access is high. Gun owners and their families are much more likely to kill themselves than are non-gun-owners. A 2008 study by Miller and David Hemenway, HICRC director and author of the book Private Guns, Public Health, found that rates of firearm suicides in states with the highest rates of gun ownership are 3.7 times higher for men and 7.9 times higher for women, compared with states with the lowest gun ownership—though the rates of non-firearm suicides are about the same. A gun in the home raises the suicide risk for everyone: gun owner, spouse and children alike.

                  This stark connection holds true even when other factors are taken into account. “It was a reasonable hypothesis to think that the type of person who chooses to own a gun is different from the type of person who chooses not to. Maybe there’s a ‘go-it-alone’ attitude that leads to less help seeking. Or maybe gun owners are more likely to live in rural areas, and rural locales are associated with greater suicidality,” explains Catherine Barber, director of HICRC’s Means Matter campaign, a suicide prevention effort that focuses on the ways people attempt to take their own lives.

                  link

                  You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                  by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:11:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think it's immoral to take away anyone's right (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gerrilea, Crookshanks, FrankRose, CarlosJ

                    to kill themselves in the quickest least painful way possible. Especially when it's used as a cover argument for gun control legislation.

                  •  In the real world, their theories have been (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Crookshanks, FrankRose, CarlosJ

                    already proven invalid:

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    When we compare our suicide rates to other countries, we're #33 on the list.  Of note these countries stand out:

                    #1- Greenland
                    #10- Japan
                    #18- Belgium
                    #19- Finland
                    #23- Poland
                    #26- France
                    #29- Austria

                    Greenland has your "prudent limits" on firearms and they're #1 in the world in suicides.

                    Japan has virtually no private gun ownership and their still #10.

                    Belgium's gun laws are what I've heard many in your group suggest as a model to be implemented here.  Their suicide rate is almost double ours.

                    Ditto for Finland.

                    Ditto for Poland.

                    Ditto for France, with the caveat that fear and social taboo push their personal gun use.

                    And lastly, Ditto for Austria.

                    These countries all seem to have the same or similar gun controls in place like universal background checks, needs requirements, age restrictions, usage restrictions, prohibitions on violent persons, including domestic violence, ammo limitations, etc, etc, etc.

                    AND they all have higher suicide rates.

                    Gun control is obviously not the answer.

                    (see link for links in my previously posted reply)

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:39:01 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Your response is part of the problem..... (0+ / 0-)

                      of suicide prevention, not part of the solution.

                      World Health Organization considers suicide prevention to be a major public health initiative and a long neglected problem.

                      Mental disorders (particularly depression and alcohol use disorders) are a major risk factor for suicide in Europe and North America; however, in Asian countries impulsiveness plays an important role. Suicide is complex with psychological, social, biological, cultural and environmental factors involved.
                      http://www.who.int/...
                      Effective interventions:

                      Strategies involving restriction of access to common methods of suicide, such as firearms or toxic substances like pesticides, have proved to be effective in reducing suicide rates; however, there is a need to adopt multi-sectoral approaches involving many levels of intervention and activities.

                      There is compelling evidence indicating that adequate prevention and treatment of depression and alcohol and substance abuse can reduce suicide rates, as well as follow-up contact with those who have attempted suicide.

                      Challenges and obstacles

                      Worldwide, the prevention of suicide has not been adequately addressed due to basically a lack of awareness of suicide as a major problem and the taboo in many societies to discuss openly about it. In fact, only a few countries have included prevention of suicide among their priorities.

                      Reliability of suicide certification and reporting is an issue in great need of improvement.

                      It is clear that suicide prevention requires intervention also from outside the health sector and calls for an innovative, comprehensive multi-sectoral approach, including both health and non-health sectors, e.g. education, labour, police, justice, religion, law, politics, the media.

                      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                      by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 09:53:35 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So, now you move the goal posts... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        CarlosJ

                        You claim that gun control will reduce suicides is false.  It's a red-herring meant to obfuscate the facts.

                        I've made suggestions for solutions on numerous occasions that do not include gun control.  Putting a square block in a round hole will do nothing for the million plus that try to kill themselves each year.

                        Your "gun control" will do nothing to correct the conditions whereby someone becomes so desperate they cannot see any other way out.

                        For you, it's all about numbers, for me...it's all about the person.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 10:55:14 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Reducing access to guns.... (0+ / 0-)

                          reduces the death rate from suicide in the USA, based on state to state comparisons.

                          Reducing access to gas stoves reduces the death rate from suicide in the UK.  Suicides do not replace the method with an equally lethal method, so the suicide rate goes down.

                          Access influences choice of suicide method.

                          Public health relies on numbers and data.  You are apparently relying on emotion and your opinion that suicide can't be affected by limiting the means.

                          Sadly, your opinion is all to common world wide.  If a society believes there is nothing to be done to reduce suicide rates, then nothing gets done.

                          You say my arguments are false, but you have nothing to back it up but your own beliefs. What exactly would you do to prevent suicide that doesn't involve "gun control."  Better mental health care?  Access to physicians and medication?  What makes you think I wouldn't support that too?   Do you actually think access to firearms  should be provided to the mentally ill?  And if it is ill-advised, how exactly would you prevent it, while not affecting the rights of the non-mentally ill, with no involvement by the government, state or federal?

                          My child had some tough issues with depression as an adolescent.  I got rid of all the firearms in the house.  Adam Lanza's mom made some different choices.  If you want to run some public service ads about this subject, that would be great.  Could even save some lives.  Limiting access makes a big difference.  I suggest you read the New York Times article about firearms and the mentally ill.    Suicide is only part of the problem.  The young man who shot up Virginia Tech should never have had access to firearms.  

                          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                          by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 11:26:48 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Bullcrap. (0+ / 0-)

                            We have the numbers already...gun ownership has gone down by 20% and suicides have gone up 30%...

                            It ain't the gun doing it.

                            And "State to State" comparisons are dishonest.  Here in New York, we once had fantastic Mental Health Services.  Anybody could get help, based on their income.  Today, they're closing down facilities and access all across the State.  Compare us to Utah, whom has even less and then tell falsely claim "its gun control doing it".

                            I don't buy into the preconceived biases and propaganda.

                            I think people whom need help should be able to get it free of charge, or at a reduced rate.  DO NOT DEMONIZE or criminalize mental illness!

                            Gun-Control Laws Could Have Chilling Effect on Psychiatric Treatment

                            It is worth pointing out, as Dr. Michael Stone, a forensic psychiatrist, did in a recent front-page story in the New York Times, that "most mass murders are done by working-class men who've been jilted, fired, or otherwise humiliated."

                            -cut-

                            They noted in their piece, "People with serious mental disorders ... account for only about 4 percent of violent crimes overall."

                            -cut-

                            But I am opposed to a broad reporting provision in any law, whether state or federal, that might cast a pall over and have a chilling effect on the relationship between clinicians and patients.

                            We have to be able to speak freely in our psychiatrist's office. That is as inalienable a right as anything our founders intended.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Mon Jan 20, 2014 at 07:44:58 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

        •  Crime data from 2012 for Florida..... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          https://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...

          To summarize, murder up 2.4%, murder by firearms up 4.3%.

          And aggravated assaults with firearms up, although all aggravated assaults are actually down.

          So the author is being irrational or just reading the news and noticing trends.

          I thought all those permits were keeping people safer and somehow preventing crimes (snark).  

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:41:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Except that if the diary author isn't going out (9+ / 0-)

        because s/he fears being shot, and they don't live in a violent neighborhood, their fear is irrational and they need medical help so that they don't become a clinically depressed shut-in.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 06:57:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Good question... (10+ / 0-)

        When the topic is an emotion...one cannot doubt the integrity of the poster...

        Humans feel many things.

        Fear, by far, is the most destructive.  It stops one from thinking rationally.  You don't think, you fear.

        Fear based politics is what we've been conditioned into for the past few decades.

        The Power of Fear:

        Those in power use fear to manipulate and control us. Fear makes us the instruments of Power. When we are afraid, we obey. When we are afraid, we will do anything to feel safer.

        Afraid of crime? Hire more police and build more prisons.

        Afraid of unemployment? Work harder.

        Afraid of AIDS? Don't have sex.

        Afraid of immigrants? Keep them out.

        Afraid of foreigners? Bomb the hell out of them.

        Afraid of terrorism? Restrict civil liberties.

        Afraid of chaos? Support the status quo.

        Afraid of failure? Don't take chances.

        Afraid of being alone? Conform.

        Afraid of going to hell? Obey the Church.

        Fear limits our freedom, keeps us from enjoying life to its fullest, prevents us from reaching our true human potential. Fear is why we do everything.

        May 2001

        Now, as progressive democrats, do we not want to help our fellow Americans whom fear?  Help them move beyond it's control???

        Buddabelly is trying to point out the irrationality of fear.  In his own way, help the diarist.

        This site being a political blog pushes for political solutions.  I'd ask this:  Do we want to continue to institute fear-based political "solutions"?

        I know I don't.

        I've had enough of fear based politics.  Since the American people have been conditioned to fight wars, like the war on terror, the war on drugs, etc, etc, etc...

        Let's utilize that conditioning and focus our efforts on fighting one last war, shall we?

        The War On Fear.

        Our society will never evolve if we don't help one another overcome fear.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 07:23:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The exact same power of fear argument (4+ / 0-)

          could be used just as effectively to discuss those pushing the gun culture and SYG.

          •  That is exactly correct (7+ / 0-)

            Remember those times when fools brought their guns and flashed them around at political events?  Because they are fighting for open carry?  It is raw intimidation.

            And just incredible gerilea would make that argument.  Why again does somebody carry a gun for self-defense?  It sure ain't faith.

            Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

            by yet another liberal on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:17:44 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You've got blinders on. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Crookshanks, erush1345

              I'm not making any argument for or against someone exercising their rights, in this diary.

              Your colored glasses poison this conversation.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:30:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino, Glen The Plumber

                Why does a person carry a gun for self-defense?

                Fear?  Faith?  Some other reason?

                Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

                by yet another liberal on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:33:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Write a diary on this question and send me (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  43north, erush1345

                  a Kosmail alerting me when it's up...I promise to answer your question as best I can, as a non-gun owner.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:45:19 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why don't you own any guns? (4+ / 0-)

                    You mean your incessant RKBA hot air is just for fun?

                    Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

                    by yet another liberal on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:48:12 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This isn't about me, honest...it's about the (8+ / 0-)

                      limited authorities our constitution grants our creation, nothing more or less.

                      It's about settled law and moving this conversation past these incessant distractions that keeps our society from evolving.

                      I've stated my goals in multiple diaries, maybe you should review them.

                      Here, let me get you started:

                      You know what I want?  

                      I want to wake up in a society where my fellow Americans don't feel the need to own a goddamn gun!  A society that teaches it children peaceful resolution of conflicts. Not how to be "the mindless worker of tomorrow'.  A society that is respectful once again. A society that holds the criminal element accountable for their crimes, not rewards it through the levers of our government!  

                      I want a government that will create the conditions of prosperity for all, not just the damn 1%! Where Americans die from old age, not from the polices created by our government that kills them for private profits and then blames an inanimate object!

                      I want a Democratic Party that will stop tilting at windmills to distract us from their betrayal of what we once stood for.  Equity under law, economic justice, the rule of law AND our constitution.  A damn piece of paper we once believed was written to protect and expand our rights, not take them away through some Orwellian double-speak.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 09:08:24 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Intimidation (0+ / 0-)

              is in the eye of the beholder.  I wouldn't be intimidated at those rallies were I to be passing through.   They want to OC so they are undertaking that action at a protest - something I've seen at almost every protest.

          •  Maybe...but isn't that another diary then?? (7+ / 0-)

            This diarist is telling us they live in fear...let's help them move past it.

            We then can discuss the pros and cons of each side, rationally.

            Pushing political agenda's based on fear does no one any good, no matter what side of an argument one is on.

            Let's evolve past that manipulation.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:22:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Reality is deaths by gun, and saying fear's the (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sandino

              issue doesn't change anything. You gun nuts are like the evolution-deniers, you're just blowing air.

              •  reality is 3 1/3 as many die in car crashes (8+ / 0-)

                as do by gun.

                You prohibitionists are like evolution deniers, you're just blowing air...

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:41:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm curious (4+ / 0-)

                  Do you accept the premise that there is a lot of ground between common sense gun control and prohibition?

                  •  I think we may already be past "common sense" (10+ / 0-)

                    gun control and well into racist and authoritarian gun control.

                    The '68 GCA can be traced straight back to fear of the Black Panther Party, that's why it's Felons who are restricted rather than some set of violent offenders....

                    To me, common sense gun control would make violent people and only violent people prohibited possessors as it's really the only predictor of future violence, past violence.

                    For someone busted for shoplifting or pot possession to become a prohibited possessor makes no sense to me and wastes the short enforcement dollars available.  

                    Someone busted for beating his wife or clubbing someone in a bar fight, pull that right at least for a time.  After due process of course and with the possibility to restore but if proven a wifebeater or another form of violent scumbag, pull the RKBA so fast they fall over from the wind gust.

                    I think those committed as a danger to themselves or others should be prohibited....to go further becomes very troubling to me on medical privacy grounds.  Again, violent crime is dropping like a stone, I don't see the need to legislate to the oddball outliers....like the assault weapon bans, all long guns account for less deaths per year than people getting beaten to death....yet every other day, one of my fellow Dems wants to reinstate a ban that had zero quantifiable successes and lots of electoral pain, this pain translates into pain for the poor and helpless our party is supposed to help.

                    So yes, I'm all in favor of "common sense" reforms....I just don't think we would agree on what is common sense....though I could be wrong....

                    Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                    I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                    Emiliano Zapata

                    by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 09:17:19 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  of course we don't agree what is common sense.... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      coquiero, Glen The Plumber

                      but calling all people who advocate for specific laws "gun prohibitionists" is inaccurate and frankly, silly.  Supreme Court has supported firearms regulations but is extremely unlikely to support "gun prohibition" because of the second amendment.  So raising this false flag to argue nothing can be done is not logical.

                      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                      by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:35:58 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I just noticed I didn't quite get the answer to (7+ / 0-)

                    the particular question down...

                    Not so sure anymore.

                    There used to be but lots of regulation has been enacted and honestly, I don't see the advantage to much more...I haven't seen a "common sense" regulation proposed yet (recently anyway) that wasn't actually pretty extreme when you look at our history and legal corpus.....

                    Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                    I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                    Emiliano Zapata

                    by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 09:21:32 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I understood you fine. Thx. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gerrilea, Glen The Plumber
                      •  this image is exactly what set the Mulford act and (9+ / 0-)

                        the '68GCA in motion....maybe not this image in particular but the meaning behind it, that all men were created equal and all have the protection of the Bill of Rights.....

                        Sorry kinda small, too late and too tired to resize but it's the famous pic of Malcolm X holding an M-1 Carbine, looking out the window.

                        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                        Emiliano Zapata

                        by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32:29 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  one thing I missed in the first response I just (9+ / 0-)

                        caught re-reading....Anyone under indictment or who has had a restraining order issued and upheld should have their firearms confiscated immediately and held till the case concludes.  At that point depending on outcome they either get sold to legit buyers to fund victim services fund if found guilty or returned with no hassles if found not guilty.

                        No accidents where they get destroyed which has happened or any other nonsense in either direction.  Violent abusive people do not need firearms, legally in our society anyway.  Thee and me on the other hand, there is literally nothing in the world to be gained by banning us from owning because we would never use them for anything that would harm others.....

                        That's why I posit that Violence itself is the divider.  Those convicted of Violent crime whether with a gun or not will more likely get more violent as time goes on, rather than less.  Willingly committing a violent crime, imo of course, is taking it to the next level.  

                        There's lots of crimes like theft that while very destructive, are in a different category.  

                        There's a difference when the social compact on the use of violence is broken and that difference should result in the loss of tools that could be used for violence.

                        Other than that, I don't see felon restrictions doing much but disproportionately disenfranchising people of color, esp the men.  And don't get me started on Voting restrictions....there is NO possible justification for......grrr....

                        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                        Emiliano Zapata

                        by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 11:47:46 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  most law enforcement.... (0+ / 0-)

                          should destroy the confiscated firearms rather than resell them, in my opinion.  They can't do that until the case is through litigation, which can be many years.  If you have your relative involuntarily committed in a mental hygiene hearing because they are a threat to themselves and others, why should the law enforcement return their firearms to them?  See the powerful investigative reporting by the New York Times of examples of consequences of returning firearms confiscated from the mentally ill.  http://www.nytimes.com/...

                          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                          by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:40:30 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                •  This is what I mean about refusing the issue, (0+ / 0-)

                  and bringing up irrelevancies what faced with it is what I mean about blowing air. It's what the evolution-deniers do and it fools no one.

                  •  CDC figures, in-total: (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gerrilea, FrankRose

                    Suicides:

                    All suicides
                    Number of deaths: 38,364
                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 12.4

                    Cause of death rank: 10 Firearm suicides
                    Number of deaths: 19,392

                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.3

                    Suffocation suicides
                    Number of deaths: 9,493
                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.1

                    Poisoning suicides
                    Number of deaths: 6,599
                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.1

                    Conclusion:  obviously, if we were like Japan, where private firearm ownership is virtually unknown, our suicide rate would drop like a rock.  Or would it remain the same - but the GUN suicide, which makes you so much deader than say carbon monoxide poisoning, the preferred Japanese method.  Short of having rapid discovery of the attempt, and rapid access to a hyperbaric chamber, it's nearly impossible to "save" a CO poisoned person.

                    All firearm deaths
                    Number of deaths: 31,672 - (suicides) = 12, 280

                    Again, the CDC:

                    Firearm homicides
                    Number of deaths: 11,078
                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.6
                    12,280 - 11,078 = 1202 accidental deaths from firearms.
                    Accidental Death:
                    All unintentional injury deaths
                    Number of deaths: 120,859
                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 39.1
                    Cause of death rank: 5

                    Unintentional fall deaths
                    Number of deaths: 26,009
                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 8.4

                    Motor vehicle traffic deaths
                    Number of deaths: 33,687
                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.9

                    Unintentional poisoning deaths
                    Number of deaths: 33,041

                    Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.7

                    Notice the bold.  I didn't bother with automobile deaths, as some "accidents" are actually suicides.  My experience with a Jaws of Life in my hands, leads me to be skeptical about an "accident" where the driver was going 70 in a 40mph zone, straight into the largest tree, on a road which curved gently to the left, and had adequate signage.
                    Particularly when they announce to the hospital staff: I just want to die.
                    It's still a "motor vehicle accident" as we don't have a check box next to "motor vehicle on-purpose".

                    Now, if we're still aghast at the homicide death toll by firearms, and I am - then let's try something novel:

                    LEGALIZE Hemp.  Legal to grow, clone, propagate, harvest, snip, dry, bag, and toke.  Domestic production only, registered and taxed growers (for now, until it grows like a weed).

                    Here's how one jurisdiction handled the lawlessness of some:
                    http://articles.latimes.com/...

                    Mendocino County instituted County Code 9.31 in 2010 to try to control a surge of marijuana cultivation. Robberies jumped as newcomers flooded in. And with no regulation, many growers illegally graded, logged and diverted creeks to produce huge, multimillion-dollar crops.

                    Some local growers wanted to "reintegrate into the county and not feel like outlaws," said county Supervisor John McCowen. Those who registered with the sheriff had to install security fencing and cameras, pay permitting fees up to $6,450 a year and undergo inspections four times a year. Every plant was given a zip-tie with a sheriff's serial number on it.

                    Eighteen growers signed up the first year. Medical marijuana advocates hailed the zip-tie program as the first to create a clear, legal means for growers to supply the medical market.

                    George Unsworth, 60, was among those who participated. He loves to show photos from the day deputies first came to inspect his pot. "To be in a garden with them in a Mendocino forest, and not be in handcuffs facedown in the dirt, but to be shaking hands, it was beautiful," he said. "I take my hat off to Mendocino County."

                    The U.S. attorney was quick to show its disapproval. Drug Enforcement Administration agents raided the farm of the first person to register, Joy Greenfield. Still, 91 growers signed up the next year.

                    Agents then targeted Matt Cohen, the grower most vocal in advocating for the program and getting it set up.

                    Despite the raids, county officials planned to continue the program. It had paid for itself — generating an estimated $600,000 — over two years and allowed the sheriff to focus on growers causing more problems.

                    With less drugs to war over, the death toll from the war on drugs will drop too.
                    As will the profits to Corrections Corp. of America, and various Federal, State and Local agencies.
                    Which is why the demon weed is still illegal.
                    Why your local Barney Fife needs a fully-automatic M4 carbine, and grenade launcher.
                •  buddabelly - Another bogus statistic from you. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino, murrayewv, coquiero

                  Per the CDC:

                  Motor vehicle traffic deaths
                  •Number of deaths: 33,687
                  •Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.9

                  All firearm deaths
                  •Number of deaths: 31,672
                  •Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.3

                  http://www.cdc.gov/...

                  Considering that automobiles are useful devices that are used by almost everyone every day, and firearms are killing machines that most people use only occasionally if at all, the death toll from firearms is shocking.

                  •  Seperate the homicides from the suicides. (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gerrilea, KVoimakas, FrankRose, erush1345

                    It blows your argument right out of the water.

                    And before anybody starts in on the old "They wouldn't have killed themselves if it weren't for the gun" schtick, let me repeat something here: In my life, I've had three people close to me commit suicide. These were my brother, his oldest son, and the son of a close family friend. My bro used a pistol. The two boys each hung themselves (decades apart; they never knew each other). What matters is not the implement. What does matter is the intent. Fix your stats.

                    •  Please note the conversation below... :0) n/t (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      IndieGuy

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:20:30 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I worked EMS for 20 years. We were able to save (0+ / 0-)

                      many of the folks who attempted suicide. They were all grateful that their attempts hadn't caused their deaths. However, most of the suicides by gun were fatal. Those that weren't caused disabling injuries.
                         IOW, many of the people who die from self inflicted gunshot wounds would not be dead had they used some other means to try to kill themselves.
                         Remember that suicide is a side effect of depression and is often attempted on the spur of the moment.

                         I have also seen several "suicides" by firearm that were probably murder, but the police didn't want to investigate them as homicides.

                         I understand that the gun nuts want to ignore gun suicides, but depressed people have lives worth saving, too.

                      •  That's a hell of a rhetorical leap you just took. (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        FrankRose, gerrilea, erush1345

                        One more example of the fundamental dishonesty of some folks hereabouts.

                        And for the record, I spent 10 years doing EMS. Been there, done that, still got the patch.

                      •  Really??? I want to "ingore gun suicides"??? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        IndieGuy

                        http://www.dailykos.com/...

                        Odd, I addressed this issue exactly and my TipJar was HR'd.

                        I do not agree that removing the object used will correct the problems this society has created.  As a person whom contemplated suicide for many years and attempted it twice, ultimately succeeding for 8 minutes, on 3-17-84, after jumping off a bridge, a firearm played no role in my ideation or how it was ultimately expressed.

                        A gun NEVER occurred to me.  Nor does it for the majority of suicidal people.

                        I must say, as one of those people whom finally was able to find help, years later and find happiness in this life, THANK YOU for helping others in those times of need.

                        Untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide.

                        When you actually look at the statistics, you find that older white men are the most likely to attempt and succeed at suicide.  If that older white man is a former cop, the chances are even higher.

                        HONESTLY, what about the rest of us???  I see the argument for gun control as a means to stop/reduce suicide as a red-herring.  Unless of course you only want to save old white guys.

                        18,000+ people each year "succeed" at suicide without using a firearm.

                        Their lives mean nothing in this debate. If you could magically remove all firearms from this nation, those 19,000+ people whom use said to commit suicide won't do so by other means????

                        Why have suicide rates gone up 30% in the last decade?

                        Let's sit down and find out why our society is creating suicidal ideation.  Almost 1 million Americans intentionally hurt themselves each year, WHY???

                        What are we doing wrong?

                        The gun surely isn't doing that!

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 02:39:58 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Bullshit....automobiles have single-handedly (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    IndieGuy, FrankRose

                    destroyed the ecosystem we all exist in.

                    They will continue to do so until we stop using them or destroy so much of this planet that it can no longer sustain us and we all become extinct.

                    American's obsession with the car has driven our foreign policy for almost a century.  Destroying millions of lives all across the planet. Our quest for oil and its control is the single motivating factor in most international conflicts we've been involved in since the end of WWII.

                    This obsession has killed an estimated 30 million people worldwide, at the end of our saber!

                    The Iraqi War has cost us over $5 Trillion and has brought us to the brink of destruction, economically, socially and politically.  It has forced millions of Americans into a state of perpetual poverty that kills 133,000 each and every year.

                    Add to those deaths caused by auto exhaust, that's another 53,000 per year!

                    And least we forget the economic costs of those auto accidents, either.

                    http://online.wsj.com/...

                    Automobile crashes cost the U.S. $164.2 billion annually, or $1,051 per person, according to a report AAA plans to release today.

                    Grand Total, in America alone, autos kill 220,000 per year.

                    All that for a privilege...

                    The right to keep and bear arms is a constitutionally protected preexisting right.

                    There is a difference...

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:16:35 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Deaths from traffic accidents is ~33,000 per year (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      coquiero

                      the US.
                         While the automobile has some deleterious effects, it is the means of transport that predominates in the US and, in fact, almost everywhere.
                         

                      •  So, your argument now is that since everyone is (0+ / 0-)

                        doing it, it's okay???

                        Or is the argument:

                        Don't look at the total number of deaths caused by automobiles, just the deaths that occurred while in one?

                        Isn't this a bit arbitrary?

                        If that's how it's done, then any and all gun related homicides/suicides that occur on Monday's shouldn't be counted.  Those that occur on Fridays should be subtracted from the total...twice.

                        Ugh.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 02:57:29 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Since I've never owned a firearm...or am I (5+ / 0-)

                controlled by personal fears, I don't buy into your one-dimensional framing that perpetuates, reinforces or justifies fear in others.

                What this has to do with anything else, is pure fantasy and propaganda.  Better known as "poison the well", "ad hominem's", etc...you do understand, right?

                http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/...

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:59:32 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Riiight, 'one-dimensional framing', like this is (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  coquiero

                  some complicated debate? Some complex issue?

                  Oh, but now let's switch to how I've wronged you by comparing your elaborate exercise in obfuscation to that of the evolution-deniers. How mean of me to state the obvious.

                •  this isn't personal.... (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't care whether you own a firearm or not.

                  Your arguments are weak and not well supported by evidence.  And regulation of the right to own firearms can be limited according to the supreme court.  So allowing regulation to limit access to certain individuals is legal and all I am asking is that it be efficient, comprehensive and well funded background check system.

                  You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                  by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:44:04 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  When you justified the politics of fear, your (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    FrankRose, erush1345

                    opinion means less than dirt.  

                    We are not Pavlov's dogs, sir!

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 09:20:39 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I am rationally afraid.... (0+ / 0-)

                      of firearms and the many people who insist on carrying them at all times for their self defense.  I go to work every day because I rationally justify the odds are not that large that I will die from a workplace shooting are not that large, day to day.  But from a public health perspective, I would like regulations that prevent felons, mentally ill (who have involuntary commitment) or spousal abusers to be denied legal firearms ownership.  

                      You call it the politics of fear and tell me my opinions are dirt.  But can you seriously tell me those categories of people should have firearms?

                      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                      by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 11:41:42 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  "From a public health perspective"... (0+ / 0-)

                        Is not rationality, it's propaganda.

                        This is how I see it:

                        Since the public health must be protected there cannot be more than 20 people assembled at one place at the same time.

                        "Felon" is an arbitrary term.  Are we talking a felon in Louisiana or a felon in New York?  DWI was never considered a felony, thanks to MADD, you can be charged with felony DWI now.  In Louisiana, if you are caught with any amount of pot, a second time, you're automatically a felon and will spend 5 years in jail.

                        "Mentally Ill" is an arbitrary term. Are we talking me, a transgendered woman that was labeled such up until the insurance companies realized the ACA would require they pay for treatment and "convinced" (paid off) the APA no longer list me as such? Or a child whom has been deemed ADHD and forcibly medicated?

                        "Spousal abuser" is an arbitrary term.  See what New York tried to pass a couple years ago.  I went into detail in this diary.  They used the term, "Domestic Abuser", meaning you get into a fight with your college roommate, you are forevermore banned from owning a firearm.

                        Expand the definitions of mentally ill, felon and domestic abuser and poof...you no longer have any rights because you argued with a cop whom claimed you ran a red light and you were arrested for a felony.

                        New York State passed that law last year!

                        So, I guess, when it comes to the details...I do not agree with your suggestions.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Mon Jan 20, 2014 at 07:33:17 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Why should they move past their fear? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dallasdunlap

              Why, when people are gunned down for an altercation in a theater, shouldn't a rational response be fear?

              I see nothing wrong with a political agenda based on fear of one's life.  That is the public health agenda.

              I am afraid of dirty water and I want regulation of the polluters of the water.

              I advocate for background checks to limit firearms ownership so that the mentally ill, felons, and those who engage in domestic violence are not permitted to own firearms.  I advocate for expanding those background checks to gun shows and private transfers, and spending federal money to ensure that there are adequate records kept on such individuals and a rapid background check system.

              I advocate for laws against straw purchases and for reporting stolen guns.

              Commonsense regulation is not based on fear per se but analysis of different laws in different states and countries.  It is motivated by rational concern for the health of the public, which you call "fear."

              You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

              by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:32:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  And those afraid of LGBT? Or those who aren't (6+ / 0-)

                white? Or the federal government?

                •  KV, I was thinking that myself, ugh.... (6+ / 0-)

                  My co-workers, whom have personally threatened me because of their fear and loathing...shouldn't have to move past their fears.

                  Oh My God is all I can think at the moment.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 09:07:34 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Wow.... (0+ / 0-)

                  I was discussing measurable Public Health consequences of behavior that could lead to fear of real problems.  And this is some kind of slippery slope argument for drones in Pakistan (addressing a down thread comment)?

                  What is the public health risk of LGBT and the federal government?  Get me the Harvard School of Public Health web page of the LGBT or the federal government, and we can have a chat.

                  Tens of thousands of people are hospitalized and die annually from firearms in our country, and we can't discuss their regulation because of the Second Amendment to the constitution?  If we could end 100 deaths or 1000 injuries a year, I would consider that a victory.  This is a costly policy, leading to real harm, not some harm to you because of a limitation to your second amendment right to buy a firearm in a parking lot without regulation.  

                  You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                  by murrayewv on Mon Jan 20, 2014 at 12:02:28 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  We were talking about fear. (0+ / 0-)

                    Since when is fear rational? How likely are you to be shot by an 'assault weapon'? Yet, we see legislation pushing for an AWB on the federal and state levels.

                    Public health risk of the federal government? Well, let's see what St. Ronnie did and move on from there....

                    I did not say we can't regulate the second amendment. We already do. That horse left the barn a long time ago. What I can say is that we should focus on solutions that we know work, not feel good solutions.

              •  Why should they move past their fear? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea, erush1345

                Why, when people are slaughtered by an airplane for being American, shouldn't a rational response be fear?

                I see nothing wrong with a political agenda--like making Islam illegal & legalizing torture, Gitmo & warrantless wiretaps. That is the public health agenda.
                It is motivated by rational concern for the health of the public, which you call "fear.".........

                By your standard this is a perfectly 'rational response' to 9/11 and the Ft. Hood shooting.
                I vehemently disagree.

                Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                by FrankRose on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 10:51:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  You know what? (6+ / 0-)

            I've lived all over central Florida for twenty fucking years now and I have yet to be cornered by some gun nut and had "the gun culture" and "SYG" pushed on me.

            Enough of this fear mongering. Seriously. We are better than this.

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:45:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's interesting. I still have a bullet hole in (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              emelyn, coquiero

              my living room wall, fired by some passerby. As a paramedic I faced drunken "armed citizens" more times than I can count.
                 Granted, central Florida might have been a little more rowdy, then. But, in fact, plenty of gunplay goes on in Florida.

        •  We have nothing to Fear.....but Fear itself...... (5+ / 0-)

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 09:24:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Research indicates.... (0+ / 0-)

          that as firearms ownership increases (which we have been told should make us safer somehow, at least by firearms advocates who assert this is the cause of declining crime rates) many people feel less safe, not more safe.  And that is not irrational fear, since more access to firearms is correlated with more firearms threats and intimidation. link

          And we should regulate things we fear- that is just common sense, especially when the fear is of something real.  I am afraid of plane crashes, but the regulation of the airline industry has greatly reduced plane crashes.  The lack of regulation of the chemical industry has lead to a lot of people here in West Virginia being afraid to drink public water.  So many are proposing regulation.

          Your argument is emotional and in many of your examples, silly and illogical.  

          Specifically, "Afraid of AIDS?  Use safe sex and fund research for a cure."

          Public health reduced risk of AIDS until we could find a cure.  Public Health argues to reduce exposure to firearms, specifically handguns, which are used in more fatalities.

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:22:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Because it gives into fear (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IndieGuy, gerrilea, FrankRose, erush1345

        and dammit, I'm tired of this. I will NOT live in fear, and neither should you.

        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

        by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:43:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  While I find this entire diary strange (0+ / 0-)

          from the fact that it was posted by someone who has virtually no history to look at here on DKos to the fact that it devolved into an RKBA fight within minutes, the world does not revolve around you and your personal experiences.

          Fear is at the heart of both sides of this issue.

          •  And a lot of it is unnecessarily ginned up (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea

            Take this diary, ferinstance.

            the fact that it was posted by someone who has virtually no history to look at here on DKos to the fact that it devolved into an RKBA fight within minutes
            Absolutely, 100% correct. So how about let's stop giving "gratuitous pandering" the benefit of the doubt, for starters?

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:22:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  come to West Virginia and drink the water..... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero

          son;t give in to fear of chemical spills.  Because public health regulation is all built on fear- which is a rational response to threats to one's health.

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:45:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bad comparison (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea, erush1345

            Real bad. To begin with, human beings don't require going to the movies like they require potable water.

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:51:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  no pretty accurate..... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero

              most laws are intended to reduce incidence of harm to ordinary people and are motivated by fear of the harm.  Don't steal, don't lie (bear false witness) and don't kill are commandments after all- some of the most ancient laws and the basis of many cultural values.

              I would recommend that the diarist should advocate to change the laws, and take reasonable precautions to avoid high crime areas.

              You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

              by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 10:04:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nah (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea

                but that all said, I do agree with this much:

                the diarist should advocate to change the laws, and take reasonable precautions to avoid high crime areas.
                Anything beats living in fear. That's what TPTB want.

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 12:09:32 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  buddabelly - Actually, 12.1 people per 100,000 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      murrayewv, Glen The Plumber

      died of gunshot wounds in Florida in 2010, per the CDC. http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/...
      That 3.9 number you cite is for murders. But remember, if you shoot down a person on the street while you are "standing your ground" it doesn't count as a murder or a violent crime.
      Likewise, for shootings that are ruled accidental or suicides.

      AND the rate of murder by gun in Florida has been rising - up 56% since 2000:
      http://www.theledger.com/...

  •  With The Code of the 6 Gun You'd Be Safe. (5+ / 0-)

    There was a diary last year pointing out that it was common in the old west for towns to forbid carrying weapons inside town limits. Wyatt Earp and brothers, Republicans, enforced that law where they were officers.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 06:24:39 PM PST

    •  Republicans then are not Republicans today. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gooserock, DavidMS, 43north, ER Doc

      Slave owning Democrats fought to hold on to their "property" through the use of State "rights" being superior to the power exercised by the Federal Government.  The elite rich white man protecting his "business" model.

      Republicans then claimed federal power was superior to any State authority.

      History shows us that those "Republicans" became the democrats of today...and vice-versa....sort of...

      Today, both parties now protect rich elite interests...oh and of course....

      Democrats = Gun Control.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 06:54:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I live in Florida (16+ / 0-)

    And I'll be damned if I will ever cower in fear.

    Yes, guns can kill me dead. Yes, you never know. Yes, there's entirely too much of this shit going on and--as usual--there are things which can be done which many lawmakers refuse to do. But I will not--WILL NOT--let fear of lawlessness keep me from living my life in the meantime.

    Your mileage may vary, of course. You are free to live in fear if you want or if you feel there's no other emotion that takes precedence in your life, no matter what you say or do or think to try and make that fear stop. But I'll tell you this much: you control how you react to things. No one else has that power over you  unless you give it to them.

    And those Powers-That-Be everyone talks about? They want you to live in fear. Fuck them,   too.

    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

    by lunachickie on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 07:07:38 PM PST

  •  I hope you can overcome this anxiety. (11+ / 0-)

    It's not necessary to feel that way in order to oppose SYG laws, or to stand in opposition of the gun culture, and it's just not good for you. Be afraid if someone out there sets off your alarms, and I'm sure you'll take the best action to avoid being a victim. Don't be afraid when there is no imminent threat. That's not fear, it's worry, and it does no good.

    One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain -Bob Marley

    by Darwinian Detritus on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 07:13:37 PM PST

  •  Aging is hard, (7+ / 0-)

    and it makes us all feel more vulnerable, because we are. COPD, like other infirmities just adds to the fear.

    I'm aging as well, and living in a big city, I understand how AW feels. It's easy to say 'don't be afraid', but courage is harder to come by when you can't run. I don't let it control my life, but it's never far from my mind either.

    Some days it's not even worth chewing through the restraints!

    by SpotTheCat on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 07:36:58 PM PST

    •  If it's never far from your mind (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea

      there's still some "control" there.

      And I say that as a fifty-something. I'm not immune to fear either, but this diary is just stoking fear and it's appalling to me. Honestly, if I'm this afraid, the last thing I'm gonna do is go write about it on a top Internet blog. But again, YMMV...

      It's not just "easy to say" don't live in fear. You can actively choose to LIVE it and stop worrying about things you have no control over for yourself.

      Yes, I absolutely want some of these guns under control, they're clearly and obviously out of control. But until that happens--and the way things look, it ain't happening any time soon with the sellouts in Congress--well, there is damned little I can do about it in this moment. So there is nothing to be gained by sitting around trembling in fear because some Bad Actor might have a gun in the meantime.

      That's what these fuckers want. They want you to be afraid. Refuse to give in to it. You cannot be controlled if you refuse to give in to that fear.

      The rhetoric about this subject pisses me off about as much as seeing hyperbole like this among strong people. That's what we are here. Right???

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:57:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "never far from your mind" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea, IndieGuy

      needs to be placed appropriately in your mind--that is, not overwhelming everything else.

      Never far from your mind being "be cognizant of your surroundings at all times"? Sure! But that's true of any type of potential threat. Anything else seems 'out of your control" and therefore you must actively train yourself to not give in.

      It is, truly, partly mind over matter here. But I have to qualify my comment above, I realize not everyone is "strong". Sometimes you really have to work at it.

      But you by God have to want to. And wallowing in writing like this is a surefire way to take away your resolve.

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:00:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I live in Virginia. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea

      I suspect my Obama bumper stickers put me at more risk than does my age. In fact, I've actually had people try to run me off the road because of them. I also had a guy try to run me off the road, following me for several miles while he tried, for the crime of passing him. Age has nothing do do with it.

  •  I have been thinking (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Island, SoCalSal, Sandino, murrayewv

    alot about that movie theater shooting in Florida.   I  am   the father of a six year-old and a one year-old and i can't imagine them losing their father over  such a  silly argument!  Not only would i ever live in Florida, iwould never live anywhere in the South!  I live in California, which is not a perfect state,  but the residents here would never stand for these bat-shit crazy lsws that seem to permeate every state in the South. Florida and Texas seem to lead the way. I feel sorry for you stuck  in that crazy state. If i were you i would never get in an srgument with anyone in that state!  What's next there...The Hunger Games?

    " We're all here for a spell, get all the good laughs you can."................Will Rogers

    by tvdude on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:29:54 PM PST

    •  as a father of similar aged children I simply (6+ / 0-)

      don't get in altercations with anyone anywhere. California is certainly no safe haven compared to Texas and Florida. If any state is considered "crazy" as you call it, surely California tops the list.

      For murders CA is about the same as FL and actually higher than texas, maybe you should move to Dallas for your personal safety. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/...

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 04:54:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'd point out that California (0+ / 0-)

      still provides for broad exceptions in its gun laws for retired law enforcement.  The craziness we saw with the Reeves shooting can happen almost anywhere in the United States.

      •  But does the law in California make it legal (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea

        to shoot someone for throwing popcorn at you?  Because apparently in Florida it does as technically throwing popcorn at a senior is a felony (battery of a senior) and thus deadly force can be used in response.  So no, what happened in that theater couldn't happen anywhere in the US.

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 09:42:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  In Florida the standard is "reasonable fear of (0+ / 0-)

          death or great bodily harm." In practice, you can cross out
          "reasonable." Preventing a felony is a justification as well, but the real issue is whether the killer was afraid.

        •  The law in Florida (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IndieGuy

          does not make it legal to shoot someone for throwing popcorn at you.  Which is why Reeves was arrested and charged with murder.

          •  Actually, it very well may. It makes it legal (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea

            to use deadly force to prevent/respond to a forcible felony.  Assault and battery on a senior is a forcible felony.  And guess what, throwing popcorn at someone is legally considered assault and battery though it is rarely if ever prosecuted as such.  Thus logic dictates that it is legal to use deadly force if someone throws popcorn at a senior.  The fact that those laws were never intended to work that way when combined with each other doesn't matter legally.

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 11:44:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Can you refer me to anything specific to back up (0+ / 0-)

              the statement that throwing popcorn at someone is legally considered assault and battery?

              •  Oh, it certainly is assault and battery (0+ / 0-)

                But given the lack of capacity to injure, it's a misdemeanor offense.  There are enhancements for special victims--which include senior citizens--but in Florida the enhancement is from a second degree to first degree misdemeanor.

                •  Certainly? (0+ / 0-)

                  Again. Am looking for statute. An absolute statement was made, there must be something absolute to back it up.

                  That being said, conflating popcorn tossing with a bullet is beyond absurd.

                  •  I agree it's absurd (0+ / 0-)

                    And under Florida law, having popcorn thrown at you does not constitute justifiable cause for using lethal force (of course there's the matter of whether or not any additional assault and/or battery occurred).

                    As for the statute you wanted to see, here is the relevant portion:

                    (1)(a) The offense of battery occurs when a person:
                    1. Actually and intentionally touches or strikes another person against the will of the other
                    This is pretty much the standard most jurisdictions, not just Florida.  And the threshold for violence is so low that poking someone in the chest to emphasize a point qualifies, and not just in theory.
                    •  I somewhat agree with you, but (0+ / 0-)

                      (1)(b) usually includes something to the effect of 'attempt to cause bodily harm'. Popcorn doesn't fit that bill any more than a feather.

                      The article you cited said that Esoldi was tasered for poking (battery) a law officer in the chest with his finger. It is pretty well established that there is some police overreach going on nowadays. The article doesn't say whether the arrest was help up in court and it seems the Esoldi has since died.

                      •  (1)(b) says (0+ / 0-)

                        Except as provided in subsection (2), a person who commits battery commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

                        I think you mean (1)(a)2, but notice that clause is joined to (1)(a)1 by a logical or; bodily harm, attempted or inflicted, is not necessary to convict on battery.  That's the case in most jurisdictions, which is why poking someone in the chest can land you in a lot of hot water if they decide to make a big deal out of it.

                        In any case, none of this applies to Florida's self-defense statutes because there is no prerequisite "forcible felony" (or at least not one that's been reported so far).  And apparently the police and the prosecutors believes that to be the case, and there are no other mitigating factors within the four corners of the second degree murder charge.  Of course, new evidence may emerge leading up to and through trial.

            •  From what I can tell (0+ / 0-)

              Simple assault and battery on special victims do not enhance to felonies in Florida.

  •  First, stop watching and reading news, (9+ / 0-)

    especially cnn and local tv news that rely on police blotters for their reporting. Second, run some internet searches to verify for yourself that, indeed, violent crime rates have steadily declined. Third, buy or order from your library this book -- The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined, by Steven Pinker. Don't be put off by the book title; it's a reference to Abraham Lincoln's inaugural address (not religion).

    Using data, Pinker's book will convince you that these are the safest, most peaceful times in world history, noting significant declines in violence in recent times. The well-researched book does not suggest that we should be complacent about violence, but at the least the book makes clear that we are overwhelmed by today's sensationalized news programs and so-called entertainment. Reading the book certainly changed my world view.

    Here's the amazon.com link for the book,with better summaries than I can write here. I believe the book made "best book of 2011" lists.

    At all times, day by day, we have to continue fighting for freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom from fear, and freedom from want—for these are things that must be gained in peace as well as in war. - Eleanor Roosevelt

    by SoCalSal on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:31:42 PM PST

    •  THANK you! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IndieGuy, gerrilea, FrankRose
      stop watching and reading news
      That will put 90 percent of the fear back into a manageable proportion such that one can actually live their life.

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:02:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Can I recommend a book for you to read? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SoCalSal, Glen The Plumber

      SoCalSal- try reading Fist Stick Knife Gun by Geoffrey Canada.

      It is a personal memoir about growing up poor and the authors encounters with gang and the escalation of violence with firearms in gangs.  

      Yes, the world is less violent than it used to be.  But burying your head in the sand, not watching the news, and ignoring the escalation in gun ownership isn't rational response to what is going on in society today.  And powerlessness amplifies fear.

      My advice to the poster is the opposite of what is included in this thread.  Write to your state legislator and tell them you want the laws changed.  Write to your congressperson and tell them you want the laws changed.  Campaign for candidates who want the laws changed.  Sign petitions to get the laws changed.  Stop feeling that a vocal minority are forcing laws upon the rest of us that we want changed.  And if you can afford it, contribute to organizations or volunteer in organizations who want the laws changed.

      We can't be all as brave as Geoffrey Canada, going out to confront the gun culture of the streets of Harlem.  But seriously, read the book and tell me people who want to regulate firearms are personally cowards, or that their fear isn't realistic.

      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

      by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:57:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed, activity and activism can be antidote (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        murrayewv

        for the fear. Thanks for the book recommendation; I do know who Canada is but haven't yet read his book. As I understand it,  Canada's book describes the personal experience whereas Pinker's book deals with historical global trends, beginning with forensic archaeology through crime statistics of about 2009. That might make the book seem dry, however it is anything but dry. I don't perceive the books are in contradiction. Local statistics are not necessarily representative of global statistics, and vice versa.

        Pinker identifies several significant trends worth considering in reduction of violence, among them the role of the emergent Leviathan -- the strong nation state which has sole policing powers. That's a role that might not appeal to some in the gun rights group, although even they might not find Somalia appealing as a place to live.

        I'm no RKBAer. I want strong gun controls. The lower rates of violence in recent years do not invite our complacency but rather encourage us to demand more reductions to violence.

        At all times, day by day, we have to continue fighting for freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom from fear, and freedom from want—for these are things that must be gained in peace as well as in war. - Eleanor Roosevelt

        by SoCalSal on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 03:27:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  thanks for the thoughtful reply.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SoCalSal

          Canada's book is powerful, because so much of the burden of gun violence is young men in gangs, Hispanic and African American.  He goes through his own life and discusses how violence desensitizes you to violence.  I think this is a big problem for law enforcement.  They over-react to folks, but why?  Because they are racists and hate the mentally ill?  Or because they are broken down by all the violence they see all the time.  It is a big and complex problem that it is hard to talk about.

          You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

          by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 11:02:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thank ALEC. nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nance

    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

    by Lily O Lady on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 08:56:15 PM PST

  •  I live in Portland, Oregon (9+ / 0-)

    A lot of people don't realize it, but the gun laws in Oregon are very similar to Florida's. We also have a stand-your-ground law and shall-issue concealed carry.

    There's very little shooting people because they look weird here. Which is not, believe me, because people don't go around looking really weird. That's not to say there aren't occasional shootings, but that this is generally a very safe town. The worst neighborhood somewhat resembles 1980s uptown Chicago.

    I wouldn't sweat it.

    ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
    My Blog
    My wife's woodblock prints

    by maxomai on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 11:03:29 PM PST

    •  Chances are your SYG laws are more restrictive (0+ / 0-)

      than those in Florida as not all SYG laws are written the same way.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 05:33:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or, not... but that doesn't work for you. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea, ER Doc, FrankRose

        Oregon doesn't have a different SYG law.
        Just like Florida doesn't issue you a SYG "get out of jail free card" with room for five "notches" before you're actually arrested.

        It's a hellagood meme though.

        •  I wouldn't be so sure about that. First there (0+ / 0-)

          is whether or not SYG is an affirmative defense (and thus the defendant has to prove it, often by a preponderance of the evidence) or whether it is something the prosecution must disprove beyond a reasonable doubt which varies from state to state.  Then there is also if there is a "reasonable person" standard or not and even if there is how is a "reasonable person" defined/interpreted by the courts.  For example, one question that can come up is if racism can considered "reasonable" nowadays (since it is becoming more and more acceptable in certain places) or not.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:27:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  If you feel afraid of someone (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    emelyn, Glen The Plumber
    Hidden by:
    lunachickie

    just shoot them first.

  •  The elderly have a response that the young (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vetwife, 43north, murrayewv

    can't imagine. I'm 65 now, and I doubt I'll go into a movie theater again. It's not just Florida. It seems we live in dark times, and us old'uns respond to the media which emphasizes these horror stories. Nevertheless it is true that respect for the elderly has taken a nose dive in our society. Respect for life, for that matter. You can quote all the statistics you want about how likely such and such is, but that won't make the fear go away. This year's flu made me realize I'm in a target demographic for that too. The fact that so many comments on this diary are snarky suggests to me a gap in understanding the fears of the elderly, and perhaps a little more compassion is called for.

    To the hungry, God is a loaf of bread. - Gandhi

    by bisleybum on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 04:53:12 AM PST

    •  Perhaps it's time to stop watching it? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IndieGuy, gerrilea
      us old'uns respond to the media which emphasizes these horror stories
      I'm fast approaching Old'un status and I refuse to be beaten into submission by this crap on the telly.

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:04:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That is how I read the shooter (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1, KVoimakas, dallasdunlap

      in the movie theater as behaving -- I get to shoot you because you are not respecting my authority -- as an old person, as a cop, as a bully.

      Old people aren't entitled to respect any more than anyone else.

      •  Have to agree- I've never understood (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IndieGuy, KVoimakas, gerrilea

        why old people feel entitled to a special level of respect- and I say that despite being older than the commenter. My level of respect for people depends on their behavior, not their age.

        I don't really understand this level of fear either.  I'm pretty sure I could defend myself now about as well as I ever could- although it's been a real long time since I've had to.
        How I would feel if I were frail and sick is hard to say- more vulnerable I guess, but I can't see it keeping me from going to the movies.

        •  Well, I never could (0+ / 0-)

          defend myself against a nut with a gun, but that's not really the issue. The new issue is that the nut with the gun is there, now feeling emboldened, entitled. This is starting to feel like our new "normal" and that's a bad thing.

          •  Don't get me wrong- (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea

            I'm not happy about the prevalence of guns either.  And I wasn't talking about defending against a nut with a gun, which I agree is pretty impossible. It would have been just as impossible when I was a teenager.

            I just don't feel especially vulnerable because of my age- and I wouldn't consider avoiding activities I enjoy.

            •  No, I don't feel that way either. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gramofsam1

              Being a middle-aged white woman is a free pass usually. Nobody looks at me, most of the time.

              But I'm sure I've been in the 20 items or less aisle with 22 items. Or driven too slowly for some. Or not remembered to turn my phone down to vibrate in the theater. Or done something that used to be an innocuous faux pas but is now an excuse for the unnecessarily armed angry guy to lash out.

              The rest of us are just bumbling through our day, not being perfect. We don't expect to get shot for it. And we shouldn't have to worry about being shot for just being an imperfect human.

        •  Meh - I know that I can't fight as well as I could (0+ / 0-)

          twenty years ago. But nobody dukes it out any more.

    •  I'm 61. Not far behind you at all. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1, gerrilea, FrankRose

      I go to the movies, and to restaurants, shopping malls, museums, pubs, and anyplace else I want. I doubt this will change anytime over the next four years. Methinks you should take a breath, step back a bit, and think.

    •  bisleybum - I'm 66 and I'm not particularly afraid (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IndieGuy

      of anything in Fla. The incipient colon cancer is a much bigger worry.
         I haven't experienced any disrespect for the elderly. There is a certain amount of condescension, as in getting baby talk from the dental assistant. And, I find it weird when young women hold the door open for me.
         I do think that Florida's Stand Your Ground needs to be repealed. It effectively legalizes murder. SYG with a duty to retreat would be okay. But in its current form it allows someone to initiate a fight and then kill the other guy. (As in the Zimmerman case or the theater shooting.)
         Actually, I suspect that older people are less likely to get killed in SYG type confrontations than younger people. In the theater shooting, it was the angry armed old guy who killed the younger family guy.
        In general, we'd be a lot safer with fewer armed civilians around.
        As for the flu - get a flu shot.
        At this age, the biggest threat is disease. Your odds against being killed by gunfire go down as you age.

  •  I don't know your age but I feel your fear and (3+ / 0-)

    I can suggest this.   I too live in Florida.  IMO Georgia is worse.  There are crazy people everywhere.  Not just in the south and not just in the US.
    Take a deep breath and don't let fear paralyze you.   If you live in a relative safe neighborhood, then enjoy the breeze and the flora and fauna and the weather.  don't isolate yourself.   Find common people with common interest in your area .People can shoot you anytime at anyplace or ram you with a vehicle...But don't be aftaid.
    Take a new interest of writing or reading or cooking or painting and have the hope that you are here for a reason.
    Age makes us more vulerable but should not make us in a state of panic.  Believe me... Alabama, NY, Nevada, name any state.. there are terrible things that happen to good people.   Look at Connecicut or Colorado.   Hang in there !

    We have so many problems that our power is in the vote and speaking out.   I am like lunachicke...I won't let them
    make me squeal but since I do not know your age or disability, I can tell you there are some good people here.

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:45:31 AM PST

    •  I agree with this.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vetwife, Glen The Plumber

      but I also recommend taking back your state.  Work for change.  Speak out.

      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

      by murrayewv on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 09:01:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow murray...how well do you know me? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IndieGuy, Glen The Plumber

        I mean  I meet with prospective legislators... Working on two campaigns and did a documentary interview with CNBC..Don't know what more I could do and still run a household and 501

        We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

        by Vetwife on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 10:53:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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