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The "elite" say the darndest things...

According to the cover of the most recent issue of Yale Alumni Magazine: “Yale College seeks smart students from poor families. They’re out there—but hard to find.”

The cover of the January/February issue of Yale Alumni Magazine is a drawing of what appears to be a man in a suit precariously standing on the top step of a ladder trying to pick a piece of fruit from a large fruit tree.  His arm is outstretched as he reaches past the “low hanging” fruit to some of the fruit higher in the tree.

The headline reads: “Reaching beyond the low-hanging fruit.”

The subtitle reads: “Yale College seeks smart students from poor families. They’re out there—but hard to find.”

Smart students from poor families… They’re out there—but hard to find?

My first reaction was, “Yale, What the?”

My second reaction was, “No, really…Yale, what the?”

The Yale Alumni Magazine cover certainly reiterates the key point in yesterday’s Wait, What? post entitled, "Principal Steve Perry, you just don’t get it – it’s the double standard that is so offensive!"

It was a post that lamented the massive growth of poverty in the United States, the resulting rise of an American underclass and sought to make an observation about the way the wealthy and elite think about “those” people.

Now we learn that Yale observes that there are, “Smart students from poor families… They’re out there—but hard to find”

The credit for shining attention on this incredible magazine cover goes to fellow blogger and author Corey Robin who posted a picture of the Yale Alumni Magazine cover and commented on it in a piece entitled ‘O Yale.

Here is picture of the January/February issue of the Yale Alumni Magazine.

 My reaction remains, “No, really…Yale, what the?”

For more check out the Wait, What? blog

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Comment Preferences

  •  It's true. (11+ / 0-)

    Poor students go to bad schools, by and large.  In bad schools, the curriculum is weak and you can't assume that someone with straight As is capable of doing demanding college work.  If you only go after those poor children in magnet schools, or who are scholarship students at private schools, that's the low-hanging fruit and many colleges and universities compete against each other, in a zero-sum game, for those students.  It's in the interests of society and of colleges and universities to figure out a way to determine which students, out of those with nominally strong records from run-of-the-mill bad schools of the sort that most poor students attend, can do rigorous college work.  But it's not a simple thing.  

    It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

    by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 01:44:18 PM PST

    •  Sounds like you went to Yale (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cali Scribe, sturunner, gustynpip

      "They are an entire cruise ship of evil clowns, these current Republicans"...concernedamerican

      by Giles Goat Boy on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 01:57:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ??? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ratcityreprobate, VClib

        And that would be a bad thing?

        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

        by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:19:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, it would have been for me (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Giles Goat Boy

          I thought the place was ugly.  

          It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

          by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:22:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think so. (0+ / 0-)

          I'm just teasing Rich a little. I think we know what Yale Alumni were trying to say, but they were pretty clumsy with their cover.

          "They are an entire cruise ship of evil clowns, these current Republicans"...concernedamerican

          by Giles Goat Boy on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:47:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Methinks you're being much too kind to the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lujane, Tonedevil

            Yale Alumni.  They were saying exactly what they were saying.  Which is that there are so few smart low income students that it''s difficult to find them and they have to search hard for them.

            The quality of education low income students receive doesn't make smart ones harder to find.  Yale Alumni thinks they're hard to find because they think they're rare.  If they're not rare, they wouldn't be hard to find.

            The cover doesn't suggest that it's more difficult to assess which poor students are qualified; it says they're hard to find.

            •  Yale used the wrong word. (6+ / 0-)

              It's not because poor kids are not smart. It's because their schools are often hell-holes run by politically connected hacks who have no motivation or inclination to do right by the kids in their charge.

              Smart isn't the same thing as prepared. To navigate a competitive college, you have to be both.

              Poor kids with tremendous innate ability may go through 12 years of public education without the educational enrichment they'll need to get into/through a selective college.  Even if they manage to get good grades in high school, they won't have the tutoring or high-end test prep to do well on the SAT.

              This is true in poverty-stricken communities whether urban, suburban, and rural.  The funding formulas, the working conditions for conscientious teachers and administrators, the poor preparation of and lack of mentoring for entering teachers . . .they add up to the opposite of opportunity for millions.  

              You can be a little Einstein, but if this is the road you've got to travel, the pavement will be unbelievably rough.

              •  whether urban, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                earicicle, Tonedevil

                suburban, or rural.


              •  Even in good schools (6+ / 0-)

                Kids without resources have an uphill battle. They didn't go to summer computer camp. They probably didn't travel as much, or get to museums.

                Then, on the cusp of adulthood, they're faced with kind of a wrenching decision, to leave their community and to leave their family behind to struggle without their help.

                (Filling out a FAFSA is no piece of cake for the parents, either.)

                At school, they may be away from their families for the first time, and even a full ride doesn't mean you have cash for extras, like weekend meals out at a restaurant or other things that happen on campus.

                Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                by elfling on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:29:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  when I was starting HS, the shining star of the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Foothills of Oblivion

                  whole town, student body pres, valedictorian, etc etc etc, got into Yale... I don't know if he stuck it out, but I did hear that one of his stories was that his room-mates had been reading Classics IN greek & latin, FOR FUN...

                  The local State U. (10 miles from our HS) probably didn't even offer greek & latin at the college level then (ca. 1960), that's how much the difference was...

                  "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

                  by chimene on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:28:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  "They're out there" does NOT equal "They are RARE" (0+ / 0-)

              Complete and total reading comprehension fail. Perhaps you need to examine what sort of biases and stereotypes you are bringing to the table that cause you to misread the sentence so badly. Why do you want Yale to be the elitist, condescending, snobbish folk that you think they are?

              Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

              by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 09:08:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  No we didn't (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rich in PA, earicicle, nextstep, elfling

              Our people didn't say that smart students from poverty are rare. They said "hard to find", considering the conditions in the schools many attend, among other things. Yale has been making an extra effort for decades, and there is no good to be achieved in mocking them for trying harder.

              I was in the first Yale class that was more than half from public schools, back in 1963. I missed out on Yale admitting women as undergraduates, but I knew some of the women in Graduate School who took undergraduate classes, for example in Russian language. I had some Black friends in my class, but when I went back for my 45th reunion last year, there were vastly more than in my day.

              One of the tales I read in French class at Yale was Mozart Assassiné, by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry. It is about precisely this problem, of highly capable children ruined and thrown away by our societies.

              This is the child Mozart. This is a life full of beautiful promise. Little princes in legends are not different from this. Protected, sheltered, cultivated, what could not this child become?

              When by mutation a new rose is born in a garden, all the gardeners rejoice. They isolate the rose, tend it, foster it. But there is no gardener for men. This little Mozart will be shaped like the rest by the common stamping machine.…What torments me is not the humps nor hollows nor the ugliness. It is the sight, a little bit in all these men, of Mozart murdered.

              Some of us actually do want to be gardeners of people. Not every Yalie, but enough of us to make a difference.

              There is much more to this story.

              Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

              by Mokurai on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 11:33:13 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  asdf... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                My mom was one of those women in the Grad School back then! She even had the audacity to be pregnant while working on her degrees, which was highly offensive to a few of her stodgy male profs.

                Of course, this makes me one of those evil 'legacies' many years later... ;-)

                Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

                by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:26:17 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Nah, the place up the road. (0+ / 0-)

        Not as far as Trinity, though.

        It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

        by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:22:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Agree, and Also (5+ / 0-)

      Generally, schools that are "highly selective" have a very specific GPA/SAT breakdown that they like to see, so they remain "highly selective" in U.S. News rankings.  If you are Yale, for example, you like to see 3.9 GPA and 99th percentile SAT.  Those are the folks who get in "on their numbers."   If you do not have the numbers and you do not have an alumni connectioon, a special skill or good story to tell, you are out.  

      Putting alum kids to one side - you need to ask what are the special skills or good stories?  If you have a 3.5 and a 80th percentile SAT score and were raised in poverty, you have a good story, every school in America wants you.  That is the "low hanging fruit" in the picture.  But there are just not that many people fitting that description.  So then you have to explore the next level of student to determine whom you should recruit.  That is hard.

      We had a kid in law school from a disadvantaged background, great kid.  Didn't have the greatest GPA or LSAT, but he was a very bright kid.  He left after one semester.  He hated school, hated how many wealthy kids were there, hated the fact that he felt he had been admitted when he didn't have the numbers to match up with other kids.    So he went down on the rating sheet as a low GPA, low LSAT, and a failed to graduate.  Schools do not like that.

      •  So long as SATs are in the mix... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mr Robert're talking about a very, very small population of socioeconomically disadvantaged students.  But it's the lousy-school population where most-demanding colleges and universities most need some kind of non-transcript validation of the student, unless they're willing to live with high attrition rates or the segregation (always with the segregation, America!) of these students into reputedly easy majors.

        It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

        by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:34:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Having to use something other than a couple of (0+ / 0-)

        numbers to judge people doesn't make the job hard.  It just requires some actual thought and brains rather than basing it on on two numbers that any idiot could look at and make a decision based on.  But it truly shouldn't be hard.

        Maybe the fact that the low income student left should be looked at as a failure of the school - but a failure to have anything but wealthy kids who made him feel so out of place and uncomfortable.  

        Such boxed in perspectives are very unfortunate.

        •  Lots of poor folks have the numbers (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          VClib, elfling

          Not as many as the rich folks, but among those who do have the numbers, the poor kids disproportionately go to non-selective institutions.  

          Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

          by benamery21 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 05:52:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I used to have a friend (0+ / 0-)

            who was on the admission committee for Yale Law School. What was explained to me was that different people on the committee had very different criteria - one person might weigh the LSAT scores most, another grades and recommendations, a third the essay. Obviously all of those things were considered by everyone on the committee, but whose pile the application landed on made a difference.

            "Labor was the first price, the original purchase - money that was paid for all things" -- Adam Smith

            by HugoDog on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 09:06:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Do you have any idea how the admission process (0+ / 0-)

        at Yale actually works? Do you know how many applicants with perfect GPAs and perfect SATs get rejected every year? Do you know how many shits the Admissions Committee gives about the idiotic USNews rankings? [Hint: Less than zero.]

        Do you know exactly what being the child of an alum gets you? All the pull, all the sway, all the influence? I'll let you in on this big, fat, Yale secret. Pull up your chair, grab a pen, and get ready to call the New York Times: One extra read of your application. One more read, by one more member of the committee. You get one extra shot to catch someone's eye. That's it, and that has been the policy for DECADES now.

        Do you know who I recommend--and which students usually get in--when I do alumni interviewing? The dynamic ones, with diverse interests and engaging minds and an excitement about contributing to the world. Like the amazing young man who thrived as a student at Yale, met his wife there, and had a young family at the time he died in the World Trade Center attack.

        But you go ahead, and perpetuate the illusion of exclusion, that you've been kept down by The Evil Ivy League Man--even though we chicks have been getting undergrad degrees from Yale since 1971 [better late than never]. And many Girl Pioneers, like my mom, were doing their thing in the grad school for a century before that. Because outdated hate is somehow cool here, I guess.

        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

        by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 09:24:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

          •  Magic? (0+ / 0-)

            Or do these evil 'legacy' kids have parents fanatically committed to education, as my parents were, no matter their economic status? You can see conspiracy wherever you want to, Adam. But the greater truth is that children of well educated parents are born with distinct sociological advantages that have NOTHING to do with their 'legacy' status at a particular school.

            Admissions statistics get rather silly at a certain point. In my day, students applied--at most--to 6-8 schools. Kids apply to 25 these days. So of course the Ivies are receiving BOATLOADS of massively unqualified applicants who for some reason--panic? delusion?--have thrown them into their mix of 25. The colleges collect the application fee, reject the unqualified applicant in two seconds, and drive up their sexy 'selectivity' number. Likely guess: The evil 'legacy' applicants tend to come from a more routine pool of applicants, where 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 makes more sense.

            Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

            by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:14:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Obviously, there's truth in that first paragraph. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              But there's advantages and then there's advantages, and the econometric research confirms that being a legacy still  is like having 160 more points on one's SAT. (Also, admitting legacies helps your yield statistics; they're more likely to say yes.)

              And I'll certainly agree that admissions rates have gone down as applications have risen.

              •  Correlation or causality? (0+ / 0-)

                I hate arguing with you, Adam, 'cause you're a lawyer, so you can always run circles around me. So why don't I just say that you win. Even though it perpetuates the awful stereotype--drunk, rich, unqualified frat boys like GWBush are gonna get in over deserving poor kids from Compton & Appalachia--that prevents JUST the kind of kids you and I want applying to Yale and Amherst. Ignorant stereotypes willingly swallowed and trumpeted right here at dKos.

                Have an awesome day, Adam. Love you; hate hate hate lawyers.

                Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

                by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:33:06 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The data speaks for itself (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  earicicle, elfling, VClib, dukelawguy

                  And I still like you too:

                  A researcher at Harvard University recently examined the impact of legacy status at 30 highly selective colleges and concluded that, all other things being equal, legacy applicants got a 23.3-percentage-point increase in their probability of admission. If the applicants' connection was a parent who attended the college as an undergraduate, a "primary legacy," the increase was 45.1-percentage points.

                  In other words, if a nonlegacy applicant faced a 15-percent chance of admission, an identical applicant who was a primary legacy would have a 60-percent chance of getting in.

                  The new study is sure to add fuel to the debate over the role of legacy admissions, particularly in determining who gets into the country's most-sought-after colleges. And it sheds light on advantages that colleges themselves may not have even been fully aware of. The author, Michael Hurwitz, controlled for a broader range of variables, such as student character and high-school activities, than had traditional analyses. In doing so, he found that the other, more-common method underestimates the advantage for legacies....

                  Mr. Hurwitz's research found that legacy students, on average, had slightly higher SAT scores than nonlegacies. But he was able to control for that factor, as well as athlete status, gender, race, and many less-quantifiable characteristics. He also controlled for differences in the selectivity of the colleges.

                  He was able to do so by focusing on the large number of high-school students (47 percent) who submitted applications to more than one of the colleges in the sample. A given applicant's characteristics, like the wealth of their family or strength of their high school, wouldn't vary from college to college. But their legacy status would, and so too might their admissions outcomes.

                  •  Giving legacy preferences is essential to getting (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    VClib, dukelawguy

                    many alumni to donate to the school.  

                    In addition, competitive schools want their statistics at US News and other places to look good in terms of people being offered admission accepting (known as yield).  The expectation is that those operating under legacy are more likely to accept when offered admission.

                    Offering admissions advantages to legacies is very rational behavior by the schools.

                    The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                    by nextstep on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 11:00:34 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Many of us donate, or help raise funds from (0+ / 0-)

                      fellow alums, because we are incredibly grateful for the financial aid we received that allowed us to attend. Period.

                      Yale could give two shits about the USNews stats. Which is why Yale rarely tops the USNews stats.

                      Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

                      by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 11:03:30 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Actually Yale does care about school rankings (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        the top schools are highly competitive with each other for rankings in most everything.

                        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                        by nextstep on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 11:35:12 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Evidence? (0+ / 0-)

                          Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

                          by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 11:46:15 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I talk with former President of Yale, Levin (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            socially from time to time,  as well as the heads of other top universities.  I met with the Pres of another top university (not an Ivy) last night.  Top university heads are as competitive and driven as investment bankers on Wall Street.

                            Not the type of evidence I can provide with a web link.  I will not be offended if you don't take that as proof, as I know this first hand, whereas I am only providing you with anonymous hearsay.

                            The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                            by nextstep on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:13:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Legacy Admission (0+ / 0-)

                            My constitutional law professor told our entire class during an affirmative action discussion that the "plus' give to legacies at Duke was weighted exactly equally to the "plus" given to someone from a disadvatanged background.  Now that was many years ago, and it is also hearsay, but I have no reason to believe that it was a lie or that things have changed.

                          •  At many schools the legacy advantage varies by how (0+ / 0-)

                            much the family gave over the years.

                            The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                            by nextstep on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 12:59:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Of course there are reasons for it. (0+ / 0-)

                      Let's just acknowledge the preference is real and meaningful, and tends to cut against the groups for whom we push for preferential admissions standards.

                      •  I suspect the legacy policy works more (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        against white middle class students than students from lower income families - as their share of incoming classes has a large variance with the US population.

                        The alumni giving, endowment returns and charging full tuition to higher income students allows highly competitive private schools to offer a free education to exceptional students from low income families.  

                        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                        by nextstep on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 11:43:01 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Whew... (0+ / 0-)

                    So since my parents were merely grad students who got lowly PhD's, I guess I just got in on my merit, good looks & charm.

                    Of course, the researcher is from Hahvahd, so I don't trust a damn thing he says. What a shithole of a school.

                    Statistics can be manipulated any which way. How can you truly 'control' for all the factors he lists? Bottom line: If your parents have had a fantastic education, chances are they prioritize education in your life. I grew up surrounded by books. I remember sitting on my mom's lap as she read manuscripts in Cyrillic on a microfilm reader, researching her PhD thesis. It took her awhile to finish, while she worked fulltime & popped out three babies. I remember attending her graduation ceremony on the Old Campus, 15 years before mine.

                    Her mom--my gran--left school in rural Ireland at age 9, to raise her 7 siblings after her mother died in childbirth.  She came to the US w/$25 in her pocket to cook for rich Boston families. She made sure that her daughter got an education. THAT is my family legacy.

                    Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

                    by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 11:01:26 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Easiest way to control? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      See if the same Yale legatee gets into Harvard and Princeton, and vice versa.

                      •  asdf... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Adam B, VClib

                        I got into all the other Ivies where I applied. Which, of course, did not include that inferior school in Cambridge. Princeton was my second choice.

                        Ironically, Yale was the first school crossed off my list when I first started thinking about college. I was such a rebel without a clue--so oppositional defiant--that I didn't want anything to do with a school I associated w/my parents. Living 5000 miles away, we didn't have the $$ to do any college visits. But admissions officers from around the country came to my school. And I asked a lot of questions, especially of the older kids who went to all the different East Coast schools.

                        I chose Yale b/c of the residential college system. It seemed like a good fit for a Hawaiian kid who wanted to experience a big cultural change, and a large-ish school, but stay rooted in a connected social environment.

                        It was fucking perfect. So excuse me for being a little defensive. I was a naive, middle class girl from suburban Honolulu, and I had a damn good time. The LAST factor--the ANTI-factor--in my decision to go there was being a 'legacy' admit. The fact that I graduated top of my class at one of the top private schools in the country probably had more to do with it. You know...that Honolulu school where me and the POTUS were both scholarship students.

                        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

                        by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 11:45:10 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Another reason for that may be (0+ / 0-)

                    that people who have a direct connection to a particular school are going to be more in tune with what that particular school values.

                    That's a very interesting study. It would be interesting to repeat the methodology with a similarly selective university that has no legacy admissions, like Caltech or UC Berkeley.

                    Another interesting comparison would be whether those students who were legacy admitted were more likely to be admitted to their legacy school versus other highly selective universities they applied to. How much advantage is just intrinsic in having parents who went to ANY elite school?

                    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                    by elfling on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:26:35 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Neither of my parents went to college (0+ / 0-)

                    and my children went to different colleges and graduate schools that I did. However, I have no issues at all with legacy admissions. The Ivy League schools, or any other private university, can admit all the legacies they desire. That's their choice as long as they don't discriminate as defined by our civil rights laws. I know that for many elite private colleges alumni giving and legacy admissions are often connected.

                    "let's talk about that"

                    by VClib on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:57:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  I Don't Know (0+ / 0-)

          if your reply was to my comment (it looks like it on the computer, but maybe not).  Also, I see that Adam B and nextstep have already replied.  But if your reply was for me, I figured I better reply.

 says that Yale's 75th-25th percentile SAT score level is something like 2370-2120.  And that 100% of people accepted for the freshman class were in the top 25% of their high school graduating class.  

          Around 2% of the class had an SAT number in any category that fell below 700.  The ACT # for 75-25th percentile was 35-32.  

          My daughter had a 27 ACT, my son had a 28 ACT.  The statistics that are reported to the public indicate that their chances of getting into Yale were 0%.  Had they been below the top 25% of their high school class, their chances of admission were also 0%.  The same rules would apply to anyone, no matter how engaging, diverse or interesting they may be.  If your ACT numbers are 27 or 28 or your SAT numbers are under around 1700, you have a ZERO percent chance of being admitted.  Not in top 25% of your class?  Also ZERO.  

          That is what is being reported to the public - so if it is false, Yale ought to sue.  But if it is true, then I do, in fact, know how Yale admissions work.  Almost everyone in the class has a standardized test score in the top 4% of the test takers and all are in the top 25% of their high school class.  The fact that Yale might take one super high ranking kid over another doesn't change the overall numbers.    I have no problem with merit-based selection.  But let's not pretend that someone is gonna sit down and read a great essay from someone with a 1,600 SAT who is in the top 40% of his class and that kid is gonna get into Yale - the number show us that this is just not true.

    •  It is a simple thing. (3+ / 0-)

      You and Yale aren't going back far enough. Get access to the files of the kids enrolled in Head Start 18 years ago. Chances are they performed better than their classmates.

      Now all I need is to have Yale pay me for this advice...

      •  Yoshimi - I have read that the "Head Start" (0+ / 0-)

        doesn't last 18 years. Have you seen some data that it does?

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:03:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here is one study to look at (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, earicicle, Mokurai, Yoshimi, VClib

          Educational outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):

          At age 27 follow-up

          Completed an average of almost 1 full year more of schooling (11.9 years vs. 11 years).
          Spent an average of 1.3 fewer years in special education services — e.g., for mental, emotional, speech, or learning impairment (3.9 years vs. 5.2 years).
          44 percent higher high school graduation rate (65 percent vs. 45 percent)

          Economic outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):

          At age 40 follow-up

          42 percent higher median monthly income ($1,856 vs. $1,308).
          26 percent less likely to have received government assistance (e.g. welfare, food stamps) in the past ten years (59% vs. 80%)

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:35:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  It costs money to find them (18+ / 0-)

    Which is why the National Journal asks today, What if more colleges were like Amherst?:

    Amherst's experience shows that recruiting students from all walks of life is, in and of itself, expensive. To meet its diversity commitments, Amherst has expanded its admissions staff, introduced a scholarship fund for veterans, set money aside to support community-college transfers, and essentially given the admissions office an unlimited budget to fly in prospective low-income students for campus visits....

    Independent college rankings also don't reward colleges for socioeconomic diversity. "What I will say, really frankly, is U.S. News is the enemy of diversity," said Thomas Parker, dean of admission and financial aid at Amherst College. Institutions can easily manipulate factors like share of accepted students who enroll and average SAT score, often at the expense of low income applicants.

    One way to boost key U.S. News and World Report metrics is to recruit students through early-decision programs, which bind students to attending. "If you look at the early-decision program—that's really a program for affluent kids. That's not a program for first-generation, low-income kids," Parker said. First-generation students may have no idea that college applications can be due as early as October of their senior year.

    •  Yale ought to be able to find money (5+ / 0-)

      They ought to do outreach into the high schools.  That's how a former co-worker of mine got out of a gang infested Chicago school where no one went to college.  She wouldn't have even applied, no one in her family had ever gone to college,  if some corporation hadn't sent in a mentor who was too young and stupid to know she couldn't go to college so he helped get ready to go.  

      They should reach out to alumni and partner with them.  Get them to fund mentor programs around the country.  Sheesh, they might even get some to go to Harvard.

      •  Yale DOES outreach. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nextstep, ratcityreprobate, VClib, Mokurai

        Yale DOES go to high schools to talk to kids about applying. Alumni do interviews of prospective applicants. Alumni are incredibly active in the community.

        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

        by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:23:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The alumni are for people who applied (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wee Mama, benamery21, VClib

          You need to get more people to apply. Here's more on what Amherst is doing:

          Recruiting and graduating larger numbers of Native American students. Already a nationally recognized leader in attracting and retaining low-income and disadvantaged students through need-blind admission, full-need financial aid and no-loan financial aid packaging, the college has pledged more resources to finding, enrolling and supporting Native American students by partnering with College Horizons, a nonprofit dedicated to increasing the number of Native American, Alaska Native and Native Hawaiian students succeeding in college. The college will host a College Horizons summer program that will match participating students with college admissions officers, college counselors, essay specialists and other educators in a six-day college admissions workshop focused on understanding the college admissions/application process. What’s more, the college will deploy its student “Telementors” to assist in these efforts; these young people, themselves students from diverse backgrounds who have been extensively trained in admissions and financial aid application procedures, guide assigned high school students through the college search, application and choice process of whichever institution they choose to attend.

          Doing more to help create a pipeline to college for low-income and disadvantaged students in the Springfield, Holyoke, Northampton and Amherst region. Leveraging the existing relationships, community-organizing skills and strong reputation of the college’s Center for Community Engagement, Amherst will convene community and educational leaders to consider how to increase the number of low-income and disadvantaged middle- and high school students who apply, are admitted and attend college—whether Amherst or other schools. The college will help to provide the resources to bring together local schools, colleges and social service agencies, as well as representatives from the private sector and local government to make this initiative possible.

          "Of the students who transferred to Amherst since 2007, 65 percent came from community colleges. Of those from community colleges, 85 percent are low-income students."
          •  asdf... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Adam B

            My nephew went through the minority, low-income recruitment process at several colleges mentioned in this diary, including Amherst. So I have very direct personal knowledge of how each of these programs work, and their comparative merits, or lack thereof. This forum is too public for me to comment on specifics. But let's just say this: Amherst's program sure sounds lovely, in writing. And my nephew sure learned a lot by attending these programs, many of which are very well structured and very helpful to students in making college decisions. Some, not so much.

            Yale's current outreach efforts are getting a very raw deal in this diary. My nephew was also recruited by Yale. Which he never would have considered doing if a Yale admissions officer hadn't first visited his community, spoken with him personally, and initiated the communication that ultimately led to a structured, on-campus program visit. 100% paid for, even though he ultimately decided not to attend.

            Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

            by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:51:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  this year, it seems, (0+ / 0-)

            the thing colleges are doing to boost the number of applicants is waiving admission fees. The more people who apply, the more the school can appear to be selective.

            "Labor was the first price, the original purchase - money that was paid for all things" -- Adam Smith

            by HugoDog on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 09:09:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I'm suggesting more intensive mentorship (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          programs where you are recruiting mentors to spend significant one on one time with a promising student.

        •  Which communities? The point is that (0+ / 0-)

          they need to be going into the communities where these students are likely to be, not the communities from which they're already getting their wealthy applicants.

    •  Amherst's President Anthony Marx (0+ / 0-)

      (no, really, an actual Marx implementing actual policies on income inequality) is featured in the YAM article.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 11:45:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Didn't see your post... (7+ / 0-)

    ...and I published a similar one, which I have now unpublished. It should be reiterated that the article in the magazine is quite good, and that the Association of Yale Alumni is separate from the college.

    Rich's observations aside, the editors of the magazine did Mr. Zax no favors with that cover. It certainly reinforces the Ivy League snob stereotype.

    "They are an entire cruise ship of evil clowns, these current Republicans"...concernedamerican

    by Giles Goat Boy on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:02:51 PM PST

  •  If Yale can't figure this out (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Giles Goat Boy, gustynpip

    Maybe they aren't so smart.  

  •  Poverty is a handicap (0+ / 0-)

    In addition to attending inferior schools, the students from poor families are more likely to have poorly educated parents.  There is no substitute for good English being spoken in the home.  Poor families are less likely to provide adequate supervision, since both parents have to work.  That is, if they have two parents.

    And have we not heard over and over that intelligence tests, such as the SAT, are culturally biased?  The poor students will have a harder time doing well on these tests, even if their innate brain power is pretty good.  And yet these tests are a good predictor of being successful in college, which is what a college should care about.

  •  The article is kind of thoughtful, actually (15+ / 0-)

    I recommend reading it.

    When Anthony Marx ’81 became president of Amherst College in 2003, it was something of a fluke. A political science professor at Columbia, Marx had simply been “minding his own business,” as he recalled to a Bloomberg Businessweek reporter a few years later, when someone suggested his name. When he found himself before Amherst’s search committee, he decided he had nothing to lose in pitching a radical vision of Amherst’s future.

    Marx had come to feel that the widening rift between America’s haves and have-nots was one of the country’s most pressing concerns, and that elite higher education had become complicit in perpetuating if not worsening that rift. So Marx told Amherst that if they hired him, he wanted to change that. “I’m not interested in being a custodian over a privileged place,” he told the committee. They gave him the job.

    Changing the socioeconomic composition of a campus presents three discrete challenges. First, you need to get more low-income students to apply; second, you need to admit more of them; and third, you need to make sure they succeed once they matriculate. Marx tackled all three, he later told the New York Times, by doing “everything we can think of.”

    (Some of the things they thought of are listed in the article.)
    Hoxby and Avery write that “the vast majority of very high-achieving students who are low-income do not apply to any selective college or university.”
    IE: we have to recruit these kids and go looking for them, because they aren't applying in the first place, either because they never thought to, can't afford to create an application, or assumed it would be too expensive.
    Hoxby and Avery parsed the data and found that if you were a poor, smart kid who did apply to an elite school, the odds were overwhelming that you came from one of just 15 urban areas: San Francisco, Oakland, Los Angeles, San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Portland, Boston, Providence, New York, Philadelphia, or Baltimore. The gears of meritocracy turn most reliably in our cities. Of the poor, smart kids who applied to elite schools in the Hoxby-Avery dataset, a mere 21 percent lived outside an urban area.
    It goes on to say that when elite schools do go looking, they are all looking in the same places, so they are overrecruiting a few students and leaving vast areas of high achieving, low income kids fallow.

    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

    by elfling on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:10:49 PM PST

  •  Yale and the other Ivies offer 100% free tuition, (9+ / 0-)

    room & board to students from economically challenged backgrounds. These students also do NOT have to take out ANY student loans. The cutoff varies among the Ivies; the 'no-loan' threshold can be as high as $100,000 (IIRC). Off the top of my head, I know free tuition, room & board at Brown applies when family income is below $60,000/year.

    So a student can get a $200,000+ undergraduate degree with zero expense to him or his family, and graduate with ZERO student loan debt. The problem is reaching out to students from low-income communities who may not know that this opportunity exists. College counseling is woeful in too many high schools. How is a child supposed to know what his opportunities are?

    The Ivies have long-standing relationships with the private schools that have always sent them students...some for centuries, even. So finding well qualified low-income students from "good" private & public schools is something the Ivies have worked on for decades now. I am proud that Yale is reaching out to find the amazing kids hidden away in difficult environments who don't know that they can go to a great school, all expenses paid. It seems completely silly to judge an excellent program by a lame magazine article cover.

    Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

    by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:18:16 PM PST

      •  Yale can always do more. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Maybe the 100% grants draw on a different source of funds? The US News stats are notoriously unreliable.

        A lot of the bogus assumptions I see all the time--here on dKos, for example--explain why students don't even think about applying to the Ivies. When, for low income families, these schools represent a true chance at a FREE undergrad education.

        Even back in my day, all financial aid at Yale and the other Ivies was 100% need-based. [And admission was need-blind.] At least 50% of the student body received financial aid back then. Coming from a middle class family, I had a scholarship that covered about 90% of my costs. I knew many classmates w/100% aid, and several who received stipends for books, travel & living expenses on top of that.

        We 'economically challenged' students have been attending the Ivies for decades. Yet the tiresome stereotype continues that the Ivies are bastions of wealthy, unqualified legacy snobs. This stereotype thrives here at dKos. It's wrong, lazy and boring.

        Here endeth the rant.

        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

        by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:33:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  In my case (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          earicicle, HugoDog

          After financial aid considerations, attending Caltech was cheaper than it would have been to attend UCLA (especially because that was when UC tuition started its meteoric rise).

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:40:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  BINGO. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Instead of dogging on these expensive private universities for not letting enough low-income students know about how they can get a FREE RIDE, we need to focus on the outrageous defunding of our public university system! It's now upwards of 20k/year to attend many state schools. CRAZY! These universities were founded to give affordable access to higher education for all.

            BTW, the free ride/good financial is available at these evil private schools because we terrible horrible snobbish elite alums give money to support financial aid. Even those of us who are embarassingly still among Teh Poorz.

            Woo hoo to Caltech! ;-)

            Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

            by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:59:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Pell Grants = govt grants for poorest families (0+ / 0-)

          It's a very good proxy for how many low income students a school has.

          Part of the question is how much of financial aid are grants vs. loans.  And part of it is the stipends beyond tuition (see article on Emory, below) as well as the counseling and mentoring it takes to help a student thrive in a foreign, elite environment.

          •  The core principle of these Ivy programs is ZERO (0+ / 0-)

            loan burden for low and middle income families. ZERO. The 'no loan' threshold is higher than the 'no tuition/room/board' cut off. [100k, IIRC, at some schools.] And there are stipends for cases of kids who truly come from nothing. In Brown's case, there definitely is a support network. No question that my nephew's public education was inferior preparation, and he had some catching up to do.

            IMHO, ZERO loan burden is something we need to work towards on a macro scale. Student loan debt is an insane trap we're setting for ourselves as a nation.

            Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

            by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:21:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  A few thousand dollars at a low interest rate (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              would be fine. Not like some of the insane programs I've seen where someone is offered "Financial Aid" that is 100% loans at an interest rate higher than my mortgage and going to be in the 6 figure range for an undergraduate degree.

              Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

              by elfling on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:34:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  That's all pointless if they're not getting (0+ / 0-)

      the word out to the potential students.  They might well be working on it, but very, very few students from low income families would even consider applying to Yale because they have no idea what's available and don't think they'd have a chance to get accepted.

      This diary wasn't about  Yale's program and it certainly made no attempt to judge that.  It's about a cover of a magazine that is incredibly offensive to low income people.  Being protective of Yale is not going to change their feelings about it.

      •  The senseless stereotypes about Ivy League (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        elitism & exclusivity keep these kids from learning about these programs, despite decades of active outreach. Ignorant stereotypes that are perpetuated in the media. And places that should know better, like dKos.

        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

        by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:36:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is the point of the article (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It starts with the author's roommate, a pig farmer from Oregon who only applied because an uncle knew that Yale was looking for diversity, and provided full room and board less $5000 a year, which students could make in summer jobs.

        I don't see what is supposed to be offensive about saying that Yale is reaching beyond prep schools and elite public schools in searching for bright students.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 11:54:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's on the high schools, too (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      earicicle, HugoDog

      In California right now, we have a 900 to one student to counselor ratio. That's obviously not a formula for success if you measure success as getting all the qualified and capable kids to apply everywhere appropriate.

      In part, that's an artifact of what we measure, and the pressures on schools with declining money to do their job. What matters for all the school statistics isn't that they graduated a kid who then graduated from MIT, or how many kids graduated with all the entrance requirements for UC, or how many kids enrolled in or graduated from 4 year colleges. What matters is how many scored proficient or advanced on the STAR test.

      Those counselors are really important, and not just for the college bound kids, but also for getting kids into appropriate CTE programs and getting them thinking about their next steps after high school.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 04:17:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Congratulations on a well-received first diary! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sturunner, Giles Goat Boy, elfling, koosah
    Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Knowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.

    Oh, I used to be disgusted
    Now I try to be amused
    ~~ Elvis Costello

    by smileycreek on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:21:47 PM PST

  •  One interesting thing in all this... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wee Mama, elfling, wintergreen8694 that only recently (like, VERY recently) have people started thinking about these students once they're actually admitted!  You can give someone a free ride but they're unable to do any of the activities (including ones that are "curricular," not even "extracurricular") that cost money and the other students pay for without a moment's thought.  And in our globalized-and-classist society, they are MUCH more disconnected from other students than the Chinese oligarch's son or the Salvadoran factory owner's daughter.  

    It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

    by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:28:02 PM PST

  •  as a low-income student from Claremont Colleges (6+ / 0-)

    I recently corresponded with a friend from Pomona about Pmona's recent "admit more poor students" campaign.

    long story short, it's not good for minorities and low-income students to be turned into tokens for Yale, or Pomona, or other rich colleges. It might make the college look good on paper, and fulfill some self-serving goals like increasing applications (thus lowering admission rates and getting higher rankings), but it doesn't help low-income students or minorities.

    it was no fun for me being surrounded by wealth and privilege 24/ classmates bought cross-country plane tickets every month sometimes to go home, while some of us could barely put gas in our cars with our part-time jobs during school.

    been here, left, and might come back.

    by BikingForKarma on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 02:30:00 PM PST

    •  There was a fantastic NYT piece on this (12+ / 0-)

      I know what you're saying is true; admissions are not enough -- counseling and resources once you're there matter:12-23-2012:

      Low-income strivers face uphill climbs, especially at Ball High School, where a third of the girls’ class failed to graduate on schedule. But by the time the triplets donned mortarboards in the class of 2008, their story seemed to validate the promise of education as the great equalizer.

      Angelica, a daughter of a struggling Mexican immigrant, was headed to Emory University. Bianca enrolled in community college, and Melissa left for Texas State University, President Lyndon B. Johnson’s alma mater.

      “It felt like we were taking off, from one life to another,” Melissa said. “It felt like, ‘Here we go!’ ”

      Four years later, their story seems less like a tribute to upward mobility than a study of obstacles in an age of soaring economic inequality. Not one of them has a four-year degree. Only one is still studying full time, and two have crushing debts. Angelica, who left Emory owing more than $60,000, is a clerk in a Galveston furniture store.

      Each showed the ability to do college work, even excel at it. But the need to earn money brought one set of strains, campus alienation brought others, and ties to boyfriends not in school added complications. With little guidance from family or school officials, college became a leap that they braved without a safety net.

      The story of their lost footing is also the story of something larger — the growing role that education plays in preserving class divisions. Poor students have long trailed affluent peers in school performance, but from grade-school tests to college completion, the gaps are growing. With school success and earning prospects ever more entwined, the consequences carry far: education, a force meant to erode class barriers, appears to be fortifying them.

    •  I would never discount your experience, but (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elfling, ratcityreprobate, earicicle

      the research is to the contrary. High-achieving, low-income students are much more likely to actually graduate from college when they attend a highly selective school than when they attend a less selective school. There are multiple reasons postulated and I don't have time to go into them, but there's a host of research arguing for the proposition that minorities and low-income students are very well advised to go to a more selective school, even if it's "no fun" to be surrounded by wealthier students.

      I'm sure there's a level of tokenism at which that's not true (just as there are individuals for whom it's not true), but that's not Yale, Princeton, etc.  I don't know enough about the Claremont schools to comment on where they fall on the tokenism spectrum.

      •  I can tell you that the presence of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        psychopathic preppies at Yale, full of the entitlement that they had been brought up on, was no fun no matter who you were, or how much money your parents made, unless you were one of the psychopaths. Not that all preppies were psychopaths. Most had much lesser problems. Some were nearly normal.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:03:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't doubt it, having attended an elite school, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          earicicle, elfling

          but I'm afraid I don't see the relevance to my comment. I certainly don't see "fun" as the goal of a college education, though "misery" shouldn't be its main feature either.

          I'll repeat the point: in general, a high-achieving, low-income high school student is more likely to walk out with a degree from a selective college or university than from a non-selective one. Those who discourage such students from applying because they won't fit in or won't be as wealthy as their fellow students are not helping those students. For the benefit of feeling slightly more comfortable for a few years they are making them more likely to fail at the goal of achieving a college degree. If a degree isn't the goal, that's obviously a different kettle of fish.

          And psychopathy isn't limited to the rich. Many of the at-risk kids who would benefit from these outreach programs have seen plenty of it already, and many of them are better prepared to handle stress than their hothouse raised classmates.

    •  While I wasn't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      especially poor myself, I found that all of my close friends in law school came from working-class backgrounds -- and that's especially unusual given how few actually came from those backgrounds. What I shared with them was a certain level of unease at being surrounded by people who took their wealth and privilege for granted. I can't really connect with people who spend $100 or more per week on drinks alone, week after week and month after month. The social alienation sometimes makes a huge difference. I saw some very smart people drop out of law school with good GPAs, just because of the culture shock and the thought that they'd be surrounded by that culture for a lifetime if they stayed.

  •  Don't judge a book by its cover (5+ / 0-)

    should apply to magazine articles as well.  The article is quite good and gets people thinking.  Part of the problem is small minded counselors who just want to push kids to the local community college so no fuss and no muss. If you do not know what is out there and that there are scholarships you are not going to apply to the elite colleges and if you do not have even a counselor it is really difficult to navigate the application process and all of the other items that are needed. So as a kid who got the chance to move on out I think it is a good thing to make more of an effort to recruit. And as far as the "rich" kids there were plenty of work study kids to hang out with that did not care if you traveled by Greyhound and stayed home on breaks.

  •  It's simple: Yale claims to be 'need-blind'... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    in its application process, just like all the elite colleges. That is, they claim (oh-so-sincerely, hands folded in prayer) that applications for admittance are considered utterly without regard to the applicant's resources and possible need for tuition assistance/student aid. May the best man/woman win, pure meritocracy.

    Funny thing, though. There have been several mini-scandals over the past decade wherein admissions employees at elite colleges confessed that financial considerations and possible need for aid were indeed considered when it came to who got the 'fat envelope' and who got a one-page rejection letter. Apparently it was easier to fall in love with a rich applicant than a poor one.

    Add to that the priceless educational head start provided to affluent students by top-notch suburban or private school systems, and doting affluent parents, and access to tutors, and summer enrichment, and excellent libraries and....

    Game, Set, Match to the plutocrats. Again.

    •  The easiest way to get into an Ivy school (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      is to be a D1 level athlete with outstanding grades and test scores and no need for financial aid. I know many examples.

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 06:13:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't know the precise study timeframe (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib, Tonedevil

        but I read an excerpt from a book (The Price of Admission by Daniel Golden) published in 2006 in which it was reported that a study of 19 top colleges found that only 6% of recruited athletes came from the bottom income quartile, while 26% came from families making over $200K.  

        Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

        by benamery21 on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:05:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  100% false when it comes to Yale & the Ivies. (0+ / 0-)

      Lazy stereotype is lazy. And wrong.

      Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

      by earicicle on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 09:30:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. Completely random that wealthy mediocrities (0+ / 0-) George W. Bush go to Yale while the schools fret about the lack of deserving smart poor kids....

        •  50 years have passed since W was admitted (0+ / 0-)

          in 1964. A few things have changed since then, in American society as well as Yale College admissions. W wouldn't have a chance of getting admitted to any decent college these days.

          Lazy stereotype is based on rich dumb war criminal admitted 50 years ago. Seriously?

          Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

          by earicicle on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:00:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I beg to differ. (0+ / 0-)

            My son graduated from William & Mary recently. A sizeable fraction of his classmates, in this day and age, were 'legacies' with relatively mediocre academic talents. Only a tiny minority were from disadvantaged or blue collar backgrounds, no matter how smart they were.

            Yes, a few things have changed in American society since 1964. It's become far more economically stratified, college costs have become obscene, and the bar working class and working poor folks must jump for a shot at the brass ring has become far higher. Job security is gone, pensions a fading memory, and Paul Ryan is coming after your social security. The biggest positive changes have been for women and minorities, but for average middle class white folks economic reality is objectively much worse.

  •  I'll have to read the article (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marykk, greenbell

    The cover doesn't make sense to me.  The population of the United States officially hit 200 million in 1967.  What is it now, 310 million?  Does anyone really know?  I suspect that it can't be that hard to find high school seniors who are smart -- who have sharp and and inquiring minds, and the capacity and desire to use them -- and who are poor.  

    •  The cover is kind of misleading (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elfling, lina

      It's a good article by David Zax.  He raises questions about money, class and admissions that are probably uncomfortable for Yale.  It's interesting that 69% of the Class of 2017 come from families that earn more than $120,000 a year.  The article doesn't say that there is a shortage of smart people among poor high school seniors.  There evidently is a shortage of applications from such students to Yale, because Yale doesn't do a good job recruiting the best students from poor rural areas.  


  •  They should come to Southeastern Kentucky... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    where we have lots of very bright, very poor kids.  I can't imagine that it's that hard to get in touch with the guidance counselors at the high school... numbers are published on the 'intertubes" and everything.

    Or they could work with TRiO programs in any state...


    Our country can survive war, disease, and poverty... what it cannot do without is justice.

    by mommyof3 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 03:50:20 PM PST

  •  Now it was 35 years ago (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    but Yale admitted my brother, who was an electrician's son with no Ivy League pedigree at all. I know there was some scholarship, but have no idea of the terms.  Of course back then, it only cost millions, not bazillions.

    If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

    by marykk on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 04:24:16 PM PST

  •  Missing the point -- The cover isn't the article (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adam B, wintergreen8694, elfling

    It's not about locating them so much as it is about enrolling and graduating them:

    "First, you need to get more low-income students to apply; second, you need to admit more of them; and third, you need to make sure they succeed once they matriculate."

    As someone graduating from a high school where my senior class was less than half the size of the sophomore class, from a large family with no college graduates among nearly 40 siblings and first cousins, and who received fee waivers on AP tests due to below poverty line family income, I filled boxes with recruiting materials from colleges, including Yale.  I was a National Merit Scholar, AP State Scholar, graduated at 15, etc.  I applied only to the state school four miles from home.  I wasn't sure even until after high school graduation whether I'd be able to attend.  It's far more complicated for many of those in poverty than just "getting in" or even making tuition.  

    Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

    by benamery21 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 05:46:13 PM PST

    •  For example, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      earicicle, benamery21, Adam B

      we're asking kids to commit to move some place for 4 years that they've never visited, on the other side of the country.

      Sometimes the schools will pay travel expenses for admitted low-income kids to come visit; we had those at our school. Sometimes it means putting a teenager on an airplane alone when they've not been on an airplane before.

      It's a leap of faith not just for the kids, but their families as well.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 08:48:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, asking their family to give up (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        their working for the family business, or taking care of sick relatives, or taking care of relatives kids, or contributing directly to family expenses, or...  It was the first of those in my case (among other issues), and I crammed my classes each semester onto 2 day and 3 day schedules so I could work full days in construction.  Incidentally, I flew commercial the first time the year after I got my BSEE.  

        Also, my parents were self-employed and income was highly variable.  If they'd had a single really good income year at any time while I was in school (as in fact they did), any income-based financial aid would have disappeared.     About 1 in 9 workers is self-employed.  The bulk of them are of modest and variable income.

        Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

        by benamery21 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 at 09:24:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  What a clueless bunch of ass munchers (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:

    And they can take harvard with them.

    Elitist dog whistles.

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