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This was a very difficult debate to watch. It should however be instructive to those attempting to understand why America is so misinformed and illustrates how misinformation is allowed to mask truth.

Before the exchange between the two politicians, the following Poppy Harlow story ran. Ann Valdez was living the multigenerational cycle of poverty. She did not think that the war on poverty was successful. No one in her condition would.

The question on the table for Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) and Senator Bernie Sanders (D-VT) from CNN moderator Wolf Blitzer was simple: He asked what both of them would do about the issue of income inequality.

Frank Luntz would be proud of Michele Bachmann. She proved that she is master of the difficult art of effective obfuscation. Many view Bachmann as uninformed or not that bright. That is not the case at all. It takes a high degree of intelligence to take a story like Anne Valdez and make it a story solvable by the same ideology that is causal.

Please read below the fold for more on this story.

Bachmann concluded that Anne Valdez did not want welfare, she wanted a job. That is a true statement. However, her implication was that the welfare itself was the cause of her economic state and her poverty. She then immediately segued into re-framing the question. “It isn’t income inequality,” she said. “It is income opportunity. We need growth. We need prosperity. Because a job is what she wants. That’s the dignity that she needs and the opportunity for a way out.” That phrasing was perfect.

Before Sanders could answer, Blitzer modified the question about education as he asked if Sanders had a problem with Bachmann’s answer. There was no entry for Sanders to make the argument that the policies Bachmann and her party supported was the ultimate cause of America’s income inequality and poverty. Sanders came off a bit bumbling.

Blitzer proved to be a poor and Right-biased moderator in the exchange. Bachmann continuously interrupted Sanders and continuously talked over him. At one time after her interruption, Blitzer stopped Sanders from re-interrupting her.

This exchange should be studied. It should be used to train politicians on how to avoid failing to get their point across. It should also be used to teach them how effective an assault on truth is when clever phraseology is used.

Bachmann says that growth is how we get people out of poverty. But there has been growth in the American economy. The problem is that 95 percent of the income gains went to the top 1 percent. That is how income inequality is exacerbated and how poverty remains systemic.

Bachmann continued the fallacy of lower taxes creating more jobs. Blitzer then corroborated the statement. Bachmann even turned one of Sander’s best points in her favor with another truth-sounding fallacy. Sanders stated the fact that Scandinavian countries like Norway and Denmark hold health care as a right. They keep their poverty rates very low. Bachmann first called them socialists. When Sanders expressed the positive state of their economy, she immediately morphed into their capitalist nature on energy. She also accused current Obama policy as being anti-energy.

A few weeks ago I wrote a piece titled “Not A Winning Message: War On Poverty, Income Inequality, And Wealth Disparity.” Bachmann proved exactly why that is the case. It is true that one can have all the numbers to prove the real causes of poverty, income inequality, and wealth disparity. Unfortunately for the average person, it means little. They want a job. They want food on the table. They want their kids to have a college education. They want security. If the rich’s income and wealth growth rate is larger than the growth rate of the economy, it’s a transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the rich. The problem is that concept resonates to just a few.

Bachmann continued to keep Sanders off message by interrupting him, with ample help from Blitzer. In this debate, truth took a beating.

Originally posted to ProgressiveLiberal on Mon Jan 27, 2014 at 11:12 PM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (166+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    antooo, GAS, cosette, rb137, La Gitane, MrsTarquinBiscuitbarrel, MartyM, auapplemac, Skyye, DowneastDem, joanil, Cedwyn, LI Mike, sodalis, a2nite, Shippo1776, raptavio, MKSinSA, David54, peacestpete, MKinTN, lcrp, DRo, wxorknot, theKgirls, elziax, pierre9045, avsp, TracieLynn, statsone, nancyjones, wasatch, GeorgeXVIII, slowbutsure, Nebraska68847Dem, mconvente, Loudoun County Dem, Liberty Equality Fraternity and Trees, prettygirlxoxoxo, Randolph06, tle, lasky57, kevinpdx, viral, collardgreens, inclusiveheart, gizmo59, rb608, quill, ozsea1, countwebb, Thinking Fella, Shockwave, FiredUpInCA, psnyder, legendmn, Chitown Kev, Geenius at Wrok, IowaBiologist, aznavy, Whatithink, MJ via Chicago, redlum jak, akze29, Another Grizzle, smugbug, MHB, GrannyOPhilly, CADeminVA, IndieGuy, RMForbes, JerryNA, dotsright, PSzymeczek, SphericalXS, debris54, NoMoreLies, addisnana, wbr, lineatus, Matt Z, RadGal70, Texknight, antirove, mickT, ratcityreprobate, OjaiValleyCali, sow hat, Aunt Pat, wader, PrahaPartizan, Capt Crunch, VA gentlewoman, offgrid, peteri2, pat bunny, xanthippe2, expatjourno, bleeding blue, sawgrass727, This old man, dandy lion, StillAmused, Bridge Master, ChemBob, zozie, mozartssister, jck, katrinka, MinnesotaMom, Dinclusin, thomask, Azubia, Jeff Y, Skennet Boch, dougymi, JosephK74, Alumbrados, floydgrant, FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph, Arabiflora, LinSea, stevenaxelrod, rbird, Sharon Wraight, Egalitare, mikeVA, ban nock, RepresentUsPlease, Habitat Vic, NancyWH, Byron from Denver, bartcopfan, spooks51, eagleray, histOries Marko, Josiah Bartlett, foresterbob, Jakkalbessie, postalblue, randallt, GDbot, tomephil, Ravenstream, Sylv, Azazello, Snarky McAngus, science nerd, Hohenzollern, texasteamster, Subterranean, Recovering Southern Baptist, Red Tom Kidd, regularJoe, yoduuuh do or do not, tofumagoo, chuck utzman, DSC on the Plateau, renbear, SME in Seattle, freakofsociety, MarkW53, alice kleeman, CenFlaDem, maggid, JClarkPDX
  •  that isn't a fair fight (5+ / 0-)

    Power to the Peaceful!

    by misterwade on Mon Jan 27, 2014 at 11:18:40 PM PST

  •  That was painful (30+ / 0-)

    I'm dizzy. Wolf is such a pussy.

    I know that she has introduced practically ZERO legislation, mush less anything substantive to create jobs. She kept blaming it on Obama, but the republicans have blocked everything he wants to do, so ther is no Obama policy.

    Bernie should have asked her what job creating bills she has introduced, and what job-killing bills Obama has signed into law.

    Or just stay on the tax argument. There's plenty of data on how lower taxes kill jobs. Bernie's used to a fair fight, not arguing with some hyped up media queen who memorizes Luntz memos every night before she goes to bed.

    Argh. This pissed me off just before I was going to sleep. I knew I shouldn't have watched it....

    "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

    by La Gitane on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 01:42:23 AM PST

    •  (ixnay on the ussy-pay) (5+ / 0-)

      but I agree with the rest of your comment.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 05:59:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Try "smeghead" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        raptavio

        He's all of that, in both definitions.

        If it's
        Not your body,
        Then it's
        Not your choice
        And it's
        None of your damn business!

        by TheOtherMaven on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:27:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's appropriate... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MHB

        ... when someone is acting like a kitten instead of a lion.

        We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.

        by EighteenCharacters on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 09:07:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No not really. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BeloitDem

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 09:54:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why not? (n/t) (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MHB
            •  Because (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BeloitDem, alice kleeman

              no matter how one tries to redress it, the term refers to female genitalia as a metaphor for weakness and submissiveness. Such usage is inherently misogynistic.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 07:50:28 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  And yet... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MHB

                The official one rule to rule them all here is:

                "The core of the Daily Kos behavior guide is simple: don't be a dick."

                The fact is that people can use a term without "inherently" being anything.

                We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                by i understand on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 08:29:24 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  It's no redress. (0+ / 0-)

                The term only applies to genitalia if one accepts femininity as weak. It may have been bastardized in some minds, but that doesn't change the fact that the origin of the word is exactly what I described:

                Ami, (Taiwan) - pusi (cat)
                Samoan, (Samoa) - pusi (cat)
                Tagalog, Pangasinan, Kapampangan, Ilokano (Philippines) - pusa (cat)
                Buginese, (Indonesia) - fosa (cat)
                Ifugao, (Philippines) - puha (cat)
                Malayalam,(Kerala) - poocha (cat)
                Iban, (Malaysia) - posa (cat)
                Malagasy, (Madagascar) - piso (cat), fosa (cat-like animal; Fossa)
                Maori, (New Zealand) - puihi, poti (cat)
                Hawaiian, (United States) - popoki (cat)
                Kilivila, (Papua New Guinea) - pusa (cat)
                Tongan, (Tonga) - pusi (cat)

                We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.

                by EighteenCharacters on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 08:51:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  We know what the origin of the word is. (0+ / 0-)

                  We also know that when used as a pejorative, it refers to the female genitalia, with the connotation that it equals weakness, which is exactly why its use is misogynistic.

                  For you to turn that around and say the implication is only there if the reader accepts femininity as weak is remarkably disingenuous.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 08:54:43 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Strange... (0+ / 0-)

                    You declare the etymology as familiar, but also defend its bastardization. If you read that particular word and immediately apply it to gender or genitalia, the problem may be closer than you think.

                    Remember: we don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.

                    We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.

                    by EighteenCharacters on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 09:04:40 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Like I said. (0+ / 0-)

                      Remarkably disingenuous.

                      Calling a black person a certain word that begins with C implies a racial slur, not a black-masked gray furry creature.

                      Likewise, to clearly call a man weak by using the word 'pussy' does not imply cat.

                      Words mean things. And you're deliberately dissembling to hide the obvious. It's dishonest, it's insulting to both our intelligence, and this bullshit belongs on RedState, not here.

                      I have nothing more to say on the matter. I do not regard you as an honest broker, thus any further engagement would be a waste of my time.

                      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                      by raptavio on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 09:20:41 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

                        I once thought as you did, but it turns out the etymologies are not related.  "Pussy", used to refer to someone of weak constitution or lacking courage at best might derive from the diminutive for "cat", just as the vulgarism does.  That would make the etymologies parallel but not otherwise related.

                        But more likely "pussy" in this sense has a similar origin as the word "pusillanimous", meaning "marked by contemptible timidity".

                        Websters has traced it to an obsolete word spelled "pursy", from Old French "pourcif".  Obviously this was long before the term was used to refer to a woman's genitals.

                        •  While I understand (0+ / 0-)

                          that there are old etymologies that fold together in strange ways, there is little doubt what the modern connotations are -- and whether or not they are "intended" by the utterer, they exist in a culture where words are understood to carry meanings.

                          Look -- It costs you nothing to find a different way to insult the guy without disparaging women. You can say weak, cowardly, callow, yellow-bellied, whatever. You lose nothing by avoiding language which is easily and reasonably seen as misogynistic. So why bother defending it?

                          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                          by raptavio on Mon Feb 03, 2014 at 08:35:28 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not defending it (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't care for it as an insult, implying as it does that a man must be manly.  But it's unfair to excoriate someone for using it in its traditional sense, one in which it's been used for centuries.

                          •  No it's not (0+ / 0-)

                            because we do not live in the 1800s. We live in 2014.

                            And if you'll notice... all I said was "ixnay on the ussypay" -- I excoriated nobody and for you to suggest otherwise indicates that your protests notwithstanding you are, in fact, defending it.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Feb 03, 2014 at 11:37:11 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ahem (0+ / 0-)

                            You also said "its use is misogynistic."  Perhaps not excoriation, but if that's the case, then I wasn't speaking specifically about your criticism, since it was specifically directed at excoriation.

                            I can deplore a choice of word while at the same time defending someone's right to use it.

      •  I take "pussy" to mean (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MHB, AlexDrew

        Kitty-cat. Something wrong in that?
        Let's not be so PC that we become parodies

    •  I"m glad I didn't see it. (4+ / 0-)

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 06:25:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I loved Wolf's outtro (4+ / 0-)

      "You both reflect those GOOD positions."

      Really?
      They're both good?
      Polar opposites can both be valid?

      You know, like the Earth is both 5,000 years old according to Bachmann and 4.5 billion years old according to Sanders.

      Perhaps Wolf would have us bridge the truth gap by having the two parties meet in between. Let's all agree that the Earth is one million years old and call it a day since America wants to hear the latest Bieber gossip.

      •  Ugh (0+ / 0-)

        it would have been nice if Wolf played a journalist on TV and asked Bachmann what her job creation plan is.

        OBVIOUSLY, her friend "Ann" wants a job.  No shit Sherlock.  A lot of people do.  Another good question, Wolf, would have been, "Rep. Bachmann, do you agree with Rand Paul and others in your party that maybe Ann doesn't want a job and would rather stay on assistance?"

        What a goddamn useless tool.

        "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

        by La Gitane on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 04:03:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  yeah that was special (0+ / 0-)

        Sure Wulf I really want to Bachmann's crap.

        "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Riane Eisler

        by noofsh on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:01:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  .. exactly! (0+ / 0-)

      .. the main issue was the topic changing .. stay on topic! .. totally useless 'discussion' ... Blitzer is a putz ... always wondered about the guy .. now I know

    •  You can't blame Wolf - Or Michelle (7+ / 0-)

      Bernie fucked up.

      As so many on the left have fucked up dealing with this wave of ignorance.

      If Wolf won't moderate then leave.

      Just say you don't need to listen to bats hit crazy monologues and leave.

      That's how you deal with situations like this.

      If more legislators on the left did that you would start seeing a BIG change in perception in this country.

      •  I agree, except for the leaving part (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AlexDrew, alice kleeman

        Then I think we look like we can't handle the heat--weak.  I think we have to take them both on; interject and walk over them, if need be.  We can easily portray the compliant, corporate, media as conservative-leaning--turn the "so-called liberal media" meme on its head.

        I have plenty of disagreements w/ James Carville, but I can't argue w/ his comment that if Dems can't defend themselves, how are we going to defend America?

        No non-conservative should ever appear in an interview expecting a fair fight.

        "Push the button, Max!" Jack Lemmon as Professor Fate, The Great Race

        by bartcopfan on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 05:55:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I've done some debating and I have to say that (4+ / 0-)

      it is really difficult to debate people like Bachman - not because of their grasp of facts or pervasive arguments - they have neither. But because they have certain strategies which make it nearly impossible for the person they are debating to get anything across. They shift goalposts, talk about other stuff, make sweeping general remarks, state complete falsehoods that would take some time to correct, attack the person they are debating and interrupt the other person whenever they like and then go on talking bullshit as long as they like.
      And if the moderator is on their side too or let's them roam unchecked (if the moderator doesn't do his/her supposed job as in this case, I think he even supported her) you can kiss making your point goodbye. In general.
      If you do manage to get anything across then you have done an exceptional job.
      Bernie Sanders is very good at making points and he has an admirable knowledge and grasp of facts. He is sophisticated. An amazing politician. I am not really sure how good he is at handling the likes of Bachmann.
      But it is small wonder that he couldn't win in such a debate situation although I doubt many people would see Bachmann as the winner of the debate. It was more like a very bad discussion that you couldn't take much from, except that I learned that Ms Bachmann is not only loony and manipulative, she is also clever and rude.

      The future is renewable.

      by KiB on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:15:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Debated in college (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dfarrah, Cassandra77, Whatithink

        and won the Moot Competition in Law School.

        You have to start by asking what you are arguing about.

        The answer is one word: Jobs.

        People want jobs that they can raise a family on.  By itself people will choose increasing inequality if they think that will create more jobs.

        That means the core of the argument has to be to link increasing inequality to job creation.

        If you don't make that connection you will lose this debate.

        I don't think Bernie understands that this is the heart of the debate.

        •  No, the "heart of this debate" is Fairness (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra77, emal

          Should 90 percent of American's (who HAVE jobs) see their real incomes decline, while a tiny percentage of Americans see huge gains.

          Americans get the fundamental concept of what is fair, and they know that Republicans typically favor the wealthy.  

          It wouldn't have been very hard for Sanders to make the point that working people have been seeing a declining standard of living in America for years, while government policies have favored the super wealthy and corporate capital.  

          Most people instinctively know the laws of this country are written for the rich.  You need to appeal to that instinct to beat morons repeating popular right wing talking points like Bachmann.

      •  Sorry. I meant "persuasive". nt (0+ / 0-)

        The future is renewable.

        by KiB on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 08:29:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  People who constantly promote (20+ / 0-)

    Sanders here as a potential candidate for higher office should recognize once and for all that despite some of his great issues stances, he is in no condition to be the face of the Democratic Party. He deserves our respect, but we also need to see his political skills for what they are.

    •  You know, I guess he could have (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OooSillyMe, PSzymeczek

      reached over and ripped her F***ing head off.  That would have endeared him to the fascist.

      Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. John Donne

      by scurrvydog on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 04:45:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  He's exactly what a Senator should be. (17+ / 0-)

      An elder statesman. a guide. a public conscience.
      He is not what we need in the WH.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 06:10:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  baloney (9+ / 0-)

      Bernie Sanders is a truth teller. Bernie Sanders puts his country before his policitcs. That's why he's an independent. If you want someone who will hug the rich while giving platitudes to the poor then Hillary's your gal.

    •  Imagine the difference (16+ / 0-)

      Put Robert Reich in that debate and he's mopping the floor with both of them. He wouldn't wait for, or care, what Wolf did to modify a question after letting Michelle run off a cliched answer, he would have turned to Michelle and said, "But you're making the problem worse!" and then explained in clear detail why.

      Bernie should watch a few clips of RR in action before he goes on these "debate" spots.

      The polls don't tell us how a candidate is doing, the polls tell us how the media is doing.

      by Thumb on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 06:45:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bingo! (5+ / 0-)

        The naked truth isn't enough. It's gotta come out in gleaming armor and swinging a sword.

        "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

        by Geenius at Wrok on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 08:33:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ah, but CNN didn't and won't "book THAT fight" (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bartcopfan, Cassandra77, maggid

        And if they tried, Bachman wouldn't accept the match.

        As much as he is maligned, Anthony Weiner is/was the "verbal combat" model best equipped to handle the Bachmans and Blitzers of the world in that or similar setting.

        And if your initial reaction to that is "But he's too....", think about the implications of that sort of unilateral disarmament.

        Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. --Martin Luther King Jr.

        by Egalitare on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 03:26:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

        Robert Reich would mop the floor with most any of those demagogs. In a situation like that it's important to have the ability to think quickly, sharply, and switch topics on a dime. It also helps to kill them with humor; they can't stand that. They like to think that they are serious contenders. That's probably why he's not given the chance. He'd be controlling the whole discussion in short order.

    •  What did you expect him to do? (12+ / 0-)

      In a debate with someone who refused to answer all questions, and continually interrupted him?

      It is the job of the moderator to ensure each person is given an opportunity to speak, and to ensure that each of them actually answer the questions.

      Bernie Sanders was on point with everything he said.  He properly explained everything with actual facts, and retorted her statements with either evidence to the contrary, or relevant questions.

      The fact that she obfuscated, deflected, and screamed over top of him does not show a weakness in him, it shows a weakness in her and in Blitzer.

      If all it takes is screaming really loud, repeating memorized talking points, and refusing to allow the other person to speak in order to win a debate, we're doomed, because that just means the biggest ass hole wins all debates, and facts are irrelevant.

      •  Wolf's Excuse For Poor Moderation Would Be That (3+ / 0-)

        the television watching American Public should be able to determine fact from fiction as they watch.

        Thus Wolf allows as much fiction and fact as the debaters can spew.  (and throw's in as much fiction as he can himself).

        Michele surely won this debate on pure fictional talking points provided by The Koch Industries Institute of Dumbed Down America.

        I don't watch CNN anymore.  This video shows that CNN has only gotten worse as a network.

        "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

        by kerplunk on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 10:36:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bachmann's M.O. is all about being an... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          justaHippie

          aggressive, bullying type when challenged.  When she starts to lose an argument, she turns into a "victim."

          In our current culture, aggressive behavior is most often seen as being connected to "masculine" behavior, and too often seen as "winning" behavior, as compared to assertive behavior, which is how Mr. Sanders behaved.  

          Had Robert Reich been responding to Ms. Bachmann, she probably would have been whining that she was blind-sided, that she was mis-quoted, or that she was not given a real chance to speak.

          All fanatics, all zealots, believe that "communication" means you agree with them.  And if you don't agree with them, then something is wrong with you, and it's okay for them to blame you, (or your party,) for everything that goes wrong, and to deny that they are in any way responsible for the problems.  

          Most of the time, a zealot's self-image can't handle admitting they might be wrong about anything, which is why they are never able to admit to having any doubts about anything.  If they admitted doubt about anything, they might have to look at everything they believe, and wouldn't that be a real slippery slope?

          Does that sound like any Republicans you are familiar with?

          •  Put Elizabeth Warren up (6+ / 0-)

            She's make mincemeat out of Bachmann.

            She knows the techniques and she is not afraid to use them. She needs to be giving lessons on the Hill.

            •  Are you sure? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ban nock

              Don't get me wrong, she's a brilliant speaker and good flying solo in interviews. But can she handle the Gish gallop, or a filibuster, or a hostile moderator? (I'm open to a yes answer; I just haven't seen it either way.)

              Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
              Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
              Code Monkey like you!

              Formerly known as Jyrinx.

              by Code Monkey on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:16:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  . (0+ / 0-)

              I don't know any politician who has the balls to talk about trade policy since this country has gone so far down the rabbit hole of globalization.  Whenever the topic does happen to actually reach a television screen, the globalists and other ideologically driven freaks start yelling the 'smoot-hawley' tariff in the 1930's didn't work as if what is going on today regarding trade has any similarity to the 1930's with the exception of wall street going bonkers on loose credit policies and leverage.

              "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -James Madison

              by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 11:51:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Woo-hoo!! (0+ / 0-)

              You are so right. Elizabeth Warren should be giving lessons. I wonder how many and who are teachable. Most politicians have pretty big heads, which makes them unsusceptible.

          •  Whining is a fallback position. We'd much rather (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ban nock, alice kleeman

            they be playing victim, exasperating as it is. And hell, if we're going to be accused of bullying, we might as well get aggressive.

            Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
            Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
            Code Monkey like you!

            Formerly known as Jyrinx.

            by Code Monkey on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:13:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  applause (0+ / 0-)

        you hit the nail on the head

      •  Whine, whine, whine. (8+ / 0-)

        Coffee is for closers. If all we can do in hostile conditions is come home crying about how mean and biased Wolf is, we're fucked. 'Cause that's the field we're playing on, and working the refs is a decades-long project, so that's how it'll be.

        Sanders is indeed awesome. But he's not awesome at cable-news shoutfests, and we need someone who is. Someone just as willing as Bachmann to be heavy-handed, someone well-trained to counter the Gish gallop, someone who will do what it takes to get the moderator on their side.

        As for what exactly it takes, if I knew that, I'd be running for office myself. But let's quit pretending we can't win and find someone who can.

        Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
        Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
        Code Monkey like you!

        Formerly known as Jyrinx.

        by Code Monkey on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:09:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Also too: YES, the biggest asshole wins, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alice kleeman

        and YES, facts are irrelevant. Facts are not how we win, they're how we know we deserve to win.

        Not to say good command of the facts isn't a strength that can be drawn on. But a fact is just one tool in the toolbox.

        Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
        Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
        Code Monkey like you!

        Formerly known as Jyrinx.

        by Code Monkey on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:11:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, it is the job of the participant to determine (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, alice kleeman

        if he's walking into an ambush.  We all have to know our limitations.  Sanders is a great Senator.  Terrific in thoughtful interviews.  A poor debater against hard right and aggressive opponents.  All can be true (and I think indisputable).  

        Not many people watch CNN, but those that did, and didn't have a set position going in, thought a crazy wackjob won the debate against a nice old guy.

        To avoid starting dumb wars, punish the dumb people who vote for them.

        by joesig on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 02:14:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  agreed completely (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alice kleeman

        when are people going to understand that politics is not all about who can shout loudest and be the rudest ...

        did bachmann offer even one idea that works?  no it was the same old failed right wing bullshit.

        "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Riane Eisler

        by noofsh on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:06:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's convenient, then, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nanorich, PSzymeczek, dharmafarmer

      that Senator Sanders is not a Democrat.

    •  Face of the Democratic Party? (5+ / 0-)

      Bernie is the face of the Socialist Party, not the Democratic Party. And I love him for it.

      Bernie's not slick, he's not a sound-bite guy. He's for real.

    •  Sanders isn't a Democrat (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PSzymeczek

      and has never presented himself as candidate for higher office.

      He doesn't want to be the face of the Democratic Party.  He is a Socialist who caucuses with the Democrats.

    •  Um, the one problem with your statement (0+ / 0-)

      is that Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat so he couldn't possibly be the face of the Democratic Party.

    •  REALLY? (0+ / 0-)

      hes a thousand percent better than some idiot like gohmert.

    •  Put Liz Warren up there. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cal2010

      She's fast and she's good.

      I love Bernie but he was "playing fair" and talking above the heads of half his audience.

  •  Dooming Democracy (ours) (4+ / 0-)

    We (you, me and our democracy) are at a juncture where anyone supporting anything or anybody that increases the wealth or influence of the super/filthy rich endanger our democracy.

    The super rich spend their money to our (the 99%) disadvantage.  When we are disadvantaged enough we will essentially be serfs or slaves.  The filthy rich use their money to purchase influence from our governmental representatives and some of that influence is directed at stacking the courts.  Once our representatives are bought off and courts rule in favor of the right and we have not the financial resources to resist the filthy rich, their representatives (once our) and our courts are under their control, they will pull the purse strings of liberty so tight that we, and our constitutional rights, will never again see the light of day.

    •  And We As Americans Won't Even Notice Just Like (0+ / 0-)

      we haven't noticed yet.

      Sorry to say but we are serfs now.

      "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

      by kerplunk on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 10:37:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  There is no "fair fight"... (18+ / 0-)

    ...where slime like Bachman are presented as reasonable. The only way there could be a "fair fight" with her would be if we had a time machine to take us back to the times when, say, an Abbie Hoffman could be welcomed as a guest in a major media debate. Abbie would have been the "fair" left-wing voice to argue with the likes of Bachman. They would not be "equivalent", mind you, Hoffman was not insane. But at least you'd have the left perspective presented by a youthful, rash and determined spokesperson who'd never allow Wolf Blitzer or Bachman breath enough to interrupt much less steer the debate into the batshit realm.
    Bernie's just too nice a guy to be in the mud-pit with that...
    well,...(if I were in England I could use the word I have in mind without hell raining down on me) ...woman.

    •  Ms. Bachmann approaches every problem... (0+ / 0-)

      with the policy of keeping an open mouth.

      I believe that's why one foot or the other is so often in it.  So focused is she on her "good" intentions, that she ignores the consequences of her behaviors, and belief systems.

      Here in Minnesota, it's been said that she only opens her mouth to change feet.  

      Who am I to argue with the truth.

  •  Thanks nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MKSinSA

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 05:51:50 AM PST

  •  It all comes back to. . . (9+ / 0-)

    "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." –Mark Twain

    I regard Bachmann as dumb because she's a true believer. She really believes her own rhetoric and that's why she's dumb.

    The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

    by Pacifist on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 06:15:18 AM PST

  •  Why the hell did he (4+ / 0-)

    agree to do this?

    Obama 2012 http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

    by jiffypop on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 06:21:47 AM PST

  •  Debate? Who saw a debate? n/t (6+ / 0-)

    "You're a dedicated swallower of fascism." Billy Bragg

    by Heianshoka on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 06:22:50 AM PST

    •  all I saw (11+ / 0-)

      was Bachmann continually talking over Sanders re-stating the same platitudes over and over. I thought Bachmann came off terribly, and I really wanted to hear what Sanders had to say, when he was constantly cut off by her not saying anything new or responsive.

      I learned very little because of the constant interruptions. Useless.
      No wonder people just tune out.

      Bachmann also REFUSED to answer simple yes or no questions from both Blitzer & Sanders, instead spewing out more talking points, which I thought made her look evasive and dishonest. Yes, I am a biased observer, but I think ANY person watching that would wonder what she is trying to hide, and not trust what she's saying. Those evasions destroyed the credibility of anything else she had to say.

      Are people who haven't already decided what they think about these things honestly persuaded by the person who talks the loudest and the most because they are constantly interrupting to repeat what they already said?

      Then again, if it was someone I agreed with, would I be impressed by their domination of the discussion?

      Ugh. One more reason to not regret that I don't have cable if this is how political discussions there go.

      •  Me critizing Bachmann (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Left Out in SF, SanityWins

        Bachmann and Palin -- Both shrill harpies.

      •  Fox (0+ / 0-)

        Bachmann is used to being featured on Fox (not the, never was and never will be the) news.
        Her "debating style" is geared to that audience no matter the network on which she appears. Start talking and don't stop.
        She doesn't debate. She never has. She reads and re-reads the script.
        She beats you into a stupor with brain addling inanities.
        There's no debate, no conversation.
        She make the sounds that make the teabaggin' base drool.
        She should have been shunned by Mr. Sanders.
        He would have gotten the same result arguing with a second grader.

        "You're a dedicated swallower of fascism." Billy Bragg

        by Heianshoka on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 07:05:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  she finally did admit she is against raising (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra77

        minimum wage.  and that my friends is game over for the GOP.  that was the only time that Wulf did his job and made her answer a simple question.  but it was the only question that mattered in that debate.

        gotta luv the lame attempt to talk about an economic war on women.  yes that worked so well for the gop.

        "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Riane Eisler

        by noofsh on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:11:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Instructive moment. (14+ / 0-)

    We need more Sun Tzu on the left and less Lao Tzu.
    i.e. we need to know when and where to choose our battles and we need to remember to win. Or lose in such a way that we know our loss cost more to the victor than he could afford.

    We are going to have to have the equivalent (a permanent equivalent btw) of OWS for the media . We are going to have to "camp out on their doorstep" until they start reporting fairly again.
    It was done with Rush Limbaugh. He's a shadow of his former self. He still spouts his garbage, but he's no longer leveraging his marginal appeal to dictate to the gop.
    With someone like Blitzer, the method and focus would be different.

    I am certain that a lot of the current nature of the big media is due to decades of the right wing, esp. the religious right, constantly, sustainedly, persistently haranguing and harassing the executives and "on-air personalities". Corporate forces have used that as a "thumb on the scale" of journalism.

    Even if we defeat the gop this year and move in the right direction going into 2016 and beyond,  we're still going to have the Orwellian effect of the  corporate media to contend with.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 06:24:29 AM PST

    •  The first DKos diary I ever wrote (5+ / 0-)

      was in a similar vein. Here's an updated version I posted three years ago. Maybe it's time to post it again?

      The terms sente ("leading hand") and gote ("following hand") concern the concept of initiative. Roughly speaking, a player in sente has the initiative, and a player in gote doesn't. More precisely:

      A sente move (or sequence of moves) is one that forces your opponent to respond, then leaves you with the freedom to play anywhere you like on your next turn; a gote move is one that you are forced to make by your opponent, or one that requires no response, after which he gets to play anywhere he likes.

      A key to effective play is keeping sente as long you can and winning it back whenever possible.

      George Lakoff, if he's reading this, has already, instantly, grasped the significance of sente and gote in terms of political messaging: Always, always, always, you should be dictating the terms of the debate, not letting your opponent dictate them to you. Funnily enough, it doesn't matter if your opponent gets the last word. In fact, you don't want to get the last word in any exchange. You want your opponent to get the last word, but you want it to be one that you don't have to answer.

      "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

      by Geenius at Wrok on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 08:38:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the link. Yes, I think you should (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geenius at Wrok, MHB, JerryNA

        re-post.
        It amazes me how many times I've felt like the Dems could own the news cycle and control the narrative forever, if they'd just make the right moves and frame things the right way, and then they go and let the gop up off the mat.
        I'm amazed at how some of the other Senators (Durbin comes to mind) contribute nothing to the debate. (Susan Collins would be a gop analog.)

        They never seize the moment.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 08:49:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You are so right, David54. nt (0+ / 0-)
  •  Two thoughts: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maverick80229

    Gawd Bachmann needs to go!

    Sanders/Dean or Dean/Sanders in 2016!!!

  •  this is also a good example (7+ / 0-)

    of why Bernie Sanders would be a terrible Presidential candidate, love him though I may on the issues.

    He's great at explaining things on Thom Hartmann, but he's not particularly effective at responding to a challenge.

    •  really I thought he did very well ... (0+ / 0-)

      people need to stop reacting to who shouts louder and who talks over another person more often as a sign of who won an argument.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Riane Eisler

      by noofsh on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:14:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Whatithink

        she wiped the floor with him.

        I've never listened to Bachman before, so I figured she would sound as inane and stupid as people around here say she does.

        She didn't sound inane or stupid at all, even with the repetition.

        Furthermore, she sprung from the gate with a message about jobs, a hugely important topic the useless dems hardly ever address.  Then she used the dem's message [or what should be the dems message] about how wages have declined.  She talked about how the economy is still weak and we've had BO at the helm for 5 years.

        So, she stole what should have been the dems message.  And she is talking about issues that resonate with regular people.  

        Repubs are going to win using our message.  It doesn't matter that they don't really mean it; they can just do what BO did: talk and talk, and once in power, do something different.

        The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 08:49:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Wolf Blitzer (7+ / 0-)

    I happened to be watching CNN yesterday (1/27) and Blitzer had a couple of women on his show. Their names escape me but they were discussing Rand Paul's comments about the "war on women" and Monika Lewinski. One of the women was taking the left position and the other the right. The one on the right referenced out of context Hillary's comment about what difference the motivation behind the embassy attack in Benghazi really made at this point. Blitzer never mentioned the context issue about it. Next, the woman on the left was talking about Rand Paul's comments and Blitzer took it upon himself to say that in fairness to Paul, he had actually been asked about comments his wife had made. It sort of made me wonder why he felt he needed to do that for Paul but not for Hillary.

    •  I'm always a tad bit embarrassed (0+ / 0-)

      when we consider Wolf Blitzer a journalist.  But that's just a personal response.

      ;-)

      Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Knowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 04:10:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  My cousin, a few removed... (0+ / 0-)

      ...is Charles Jaco, who, along with Wolf Blitzer, cut his chops on CNN during the Gulf War.  I've never met him, but always thought it was cool to be related to him...he's also written a few books.

      So years later, Blitzer is a CNN fool, and Jaco took down Todd Akin.

      Made me happy.

  •  i turned the channel in the (0+ / 0-)

    middle of the debate.  i was hoping Bernie would take her down but she only interrupted constantly.

  •  Obama's war on women (7+ / 0-)

    I spit out my chimichanga when Bachmann accused Obama of instituting "a war on women".   Say whaaaaat?

    •  Economic War On Women (0+ / 0-)

      Where women are unable to buy propane, because the menfolk bought all the cheap stuff up on the super secret men only propane market. Leaving only too expensive propane for women.

      First they came for the farm workers, and I said nothing.

      by Hannibal on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 07:31:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Classic Rovian schoolyard judo. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MHB, JerryNA

      When you let your opponents get out in front of you, this is what they do.

      "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

      by Geenius at Wrok on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 08:47:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  She earned her rep (0+ / 0-)

      as batshit cray-cray.

      •  In fact, she did great (0+ / 0-)

        by the standards of right-wing debate: never answer a question you don't want to, monopolize the airtime as much as possible, Gish gallop, and interrupt your opponent every time he opens his mouth.

        Bachmann also used the fact that she is a woman (and Bernie is a gentleman) brilliantly. She knew damn well that a) he is a very moderate speaker, and by nature would be disinclined to cut her off, and b) if he cut her off it would make him look like a bully. Instead she bullied him for 10 minutes with a smile on her face the whole time.

        I never watch CNN, and in fact I wouldn't have seen this clip if the LH hadn't called it to my attention. Now I can go back to not watching CNN.

        "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

        by sidnora on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 04:14:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Projection. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FiredUpInCA, bartcopfan

      Pure projection.

      Why do I have the feeling George W. Bush joined the Stonecutters, ate a mess of ribs, and used the Constitution as a napkin?

      by Matt Z on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:16:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  A conservative accusation is really a confession. (0+ / 0-)

      "Push the button, Max!" Jack Lemmon as Professor Fate, The Great Race

      by bartcopfan on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:07:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Extremely painful to watch (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mconvente, Hannibal, MHB, JerryNA

    "Excuse me" is just NOT an effective way to deal with Bachman.

    If I have any spit left after I've licked my own wounds, I'll be glad to consider licking yours. Peace.

    by nancyjones on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 06:51:11 AM PST

    •  Because someone else acts badly (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Maverick80229

      it is never a reason for anyone else to act badly.

      I am a Progressive. I believe in one simple phrase: "... with liberty, and justice for all."

      by Nebraska68847Dem on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 07:12:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chrisculpepper

        But "excuse me" is not the only civil way to respond.  And if it didn't work the first umpteen times, why would it work any of the subsequent times?  Perhaps something like in your best parental voice), "I know you have a lot to say, Ms. Bachman, so do I.  After I've had my turn, you can have yours."  Then don't wait for agreement, ignore the rude child at your side, and confidently, energetically make your excellent points.

        If I have any spit left after I've licked my own wounds, I'll be glad to consider licking yours. Peace.

        by nancyjones on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 12:07:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And Because I Get Punched In The Face (0+ / 0-)

        It's no reason to hit back. I should simply take the punches and then fall down. Then I can be the moral victor while they walk away with the pot of gold.

        Not bloody likely.

        Remember, the road to victory is paved with big words and professorial arrogance. Passion need not apply.

        by The Lone Apple on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:46:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I agree with the "study this" reaction. (6+ / 0-)

    We can do that from hostage negotiations strategies, metaphor usage, speaking "American" ideas including knowing the cultural bent of different parts of the US, to cognitive strategies, data journalism strategies (visualization particularly), anti cult stratiegies, game theory, etc.  YES WE CAN.

  •  Sorry that Sanders got abused. (5+ / 0-)

    Bernie Sanders is an intelligent and reasonable man.  Apparently, he wasn't prepared to be sufficiently assertive in this battle.

    I want to see a "debate" between Bachmann and Grayson.  Even if the "moderator" was Limbaugh, I think Grayson would kick her ass.

    I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

    by tle on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 07:14:28 AM PST

    •  Never happen! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JerryNA, tle, chrisculpepper

      I'm willing to wager that Bachmann would never agree to any sort of right/left discussion or debate with Alan Grayson. She's seen him in action in the House, and she knows that he would assertively push back if she interrupted, and that he would also undercut Blitzer with some piercing question about any attempt he might make to 'side' with Bachmann's points.

      So, bottom line, CNN would never pair these two up.

      You meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion ~ And expect them to rise for the occasion...

      by paz3 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 10:00:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No that would be entertaining (0+ / 0-)

      Different sort of people Alan and Bernie.  Alan would definitely shout her down even louder.  It would be entertaining but sill who actually wins that sort of debate.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Riane Eisler

      by noofsh on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:16:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bachmann beat Bernie? Only with Wolf's help, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FiredUpInCA, Maverick80229

    as you pointed out. I couldn't watch it, no way.

    "Let's stay together"--Rev. Al Green and President Obama

    by collardgreens on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 07:33:16 AM PST

  •  Blitzer for the assist... n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maverick80229, JerryNA
  •  WTF Wolf Blitzer, you suck as a moderator n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maverick80229
  •  A chicken in every pot... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    misterwade, Whatithink

    When Obama first took office, I thought that his Administration's best bet in the midst of the economic turmoil would have been to propose a solar panel on every roof.

    That was just my idea for a program and I think that it has merits, but whatever others think of that specific idea, I think that it is safe to say that the Democrats have not come up with any universal and tangible initiatives to address economic inequality - and that's a big problem for them.

    George Bush sent everyone a $300 check which worked really well for him.  I don't think that was nearly as ingenious as my solar panel idea which would have both created jobs and saved people money on their energy bills, but it was a political winner for him.  The Dems can't even seem to manage a major political win.

  •  If you go on Blitzer, (5+ / 0-)

    he is there to shill for his corporate masters.  Your job is to be prepared for that.  If you're not that kind of person (which is fine), don't go on with Blitzer.

  •  Minor correction (4+ / 0-)

    You list Bernie Sanders as (D-VT). While he caucuses with the Democrats, officially he's an independent, but in reality he's a socialist.

    Sounds like Bachmann is using the typical Republican playbook: be wrong qt the top of your voice and monopolize the conversation.

    Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

    by Omir the Storyteller on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 07:58:54 AM PST

  •  "Income opportunity" - the latest FOX reframing (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Naniboujou, JerryNA, QuelleC, NoMoreLies
    Michele Bachmann concluded that Anne Valdez did not want welfare. She wanted a job. That is a true statement. However her implication was that the welfare itself was the cause of her economic state, her poverty. She then immediately segued into reframing the question. “It isn’t income inequality,” she said. “It is income opportunity. We need growth. We need prosperity. Because a job is what she wants? That’s the dignity that she needs and the opportunity for a way out.” That phrasing was perfect.

    [Bold type added for emphasis.]

    The term she introduced here - 'income opportunity' - is not her own concept, but is instead a recent invention by the seasoned propagandists of Fox "News." Here's a quote from a recent story from News Corpse:

    Now Fox News is pitching a new phrase to replace “income inequality,” which describes the gap between America’s ultra-wealthy and the average citizen. The current gap is greater than it has ever been, and the consequences are starkly negative for the nation’s economic health. The public is acutely aware of this problem and supports reforms aimed at resolving it. Therefore, unable to come up with a rational counter argument, Fox has introduced a new way of dressing up the problem that makes it seem all warm and fuzzy. They now call it “income opportunity.”
    Hooray for Income Inequality! Or, as Fox News calls it, 'Income Opportunity', News Corpse, January 14, 2014

    'Income opportunity,' indeed.  Let's nip this Orwellian phrase in the bud, here and now.  It deserves to be mercilessly mocked as a lasting embarrassment to its own creators.

    FOX News: For entertainment purposes only. Not to be confused with actual news broadcasting.

    by IowaBiologist on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 08:44:48 AM PST

  •  Watch and Learn, Miles (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JerryNA

    Sanders is normally a much sharper guy than this, and has won far more than his fair share of debates with members of the Koch Brothers Mercenaries Corp. But no one is perfect all the time.

    This is, indeed, one to study very, very carefully.

    Bachmann pulls all the debaters' tricks, and those same tricks are used by your Fox News watching neighbor. "Watch and learn, Miles", as Dr. Kennedy said on The Sopranos. "Watch and learn."

    A Southerner in Yankeeland

     

    To save your life and our country, read "Pity The Billionaire" by Thomas Frank, and "Winner-Take-All-Politics" by Jacob S. Hacker and Paul Pierson. Then read more books.

    by A Southerner in Yankeeland on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 10:22:56 AM PST

  •  Now That Chris Christie Is Weakened, Michele (0+ / 0-)

    Bachmann has set her sights (again) on the Republican Presidential nomination.

    The American Public thinks she's a smart cookie.

    "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

    by kerplunk on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 10:51:58 AM PST

  •  Bachman (0+ / 0-)

    Blitzer obviously is either incapable of moderating a discussion or biased toward the Repuglican corporate lackeys.  He should have immediately stopped Bachman from yammering over Bernie whenever it was his turn to speak.

    This "debate" is a farce. Blitzer should be canned, and Bachman should be rode outta town on a rail.

    •  Haven't you heard??? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NoMoreLies

      Blitzer is the key trafficker in what called "the new objectivity"...that's when Republican mouthpieces have complete freedom of speech: freedom from context, freedom from interruption, freedom from criticism and freedom from accountability.

      The other side doesn't like freedom so they don't need it.

      (or something along those lines)

      Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Knowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.
       

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 04:26:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bachmann (0+ / 0-)

    Isn't she gone yet?

  •  What a tool... (0+ / 0-)

    ...this vacuous woman is.  She doesn't even realize it.

  •  mICHELL bACKWARDS (0+ / 0-)

    THE DUMBROADS OR DIMWIT BLONDS THE GOP SENDS TO THESE TALKING HEAD INTERVIEWS HAVE BEEN TOLD TO INTERRUPT AT ANY TIME LYING ALL THE WHILE. THE DEMS SIT WHILE THIS HAPPENS AND TO BE BLUNT SUCK AT BEING RUDE WHICH THE REPUBLIBOTS Have ALREADY MASTERED.
    sORRY,I MEANT TO BE CIRCUMSPECT AND NOT SHOUT!lol
    Anyone who knows what has transpired in Congress for the past five years knows that jobs are not the aim of the GOP,just obfuscation ,delay and chaos, misery to the body of elected  so called representatives until,WHAT?
    They have no plan for anything except negativity and tax cuts for the already rich which does not bring new jobs since they exported them all while bush was in orfice.
    I mean orfice!

  •  CNN AND MSNBC "MORNING JOE" (0+ / 0-)

    These two shark schools in Dolphin's clothing are moving to slime their shows into the Fox news mode of  avoiding  anything on their programs that might appear  in favor of the Democratic party and Obama in particular therefore appealing to the larger less informed  audience that watches the Faux "news"at home,in bars or listens to FAUX RADIO.
    Both hope to enlarge their audience at the cost of honest broadcasting and journalism.
    Scarborough was disgusting fawning over the sick hick Sen.Coburn from the Okies this morning pretending to be on a Progressive station.He should be removed from the mix,he is still one of the phoney Dolphin sharks with a guppy approach.

  •  Bachmann won this one (0+ / 0-)

    OK, before you ban me or delete my post, please hear me out. From a pure debate point of view, Michele won. Bernie did not bring his A game, and Wolf could not moderate a 2nd grade panel.  I get it, nobody on here likes Michele Bahcmann and people detest her politics and her stances. However, is it asking too much to stop mentioning Sarah Palin in the same sentence. Bachmann has spent years on MSNBC and CNN willing to debate hosts and democrat politiciains....where as Palin won't venture off the Fox couch. Bachmann actually performed well in the 2011 GOP debates (but she had the world's worst campaign team period..which is her fault). Can you ever imagine Palin in a serious debate one one one, or in 14 GOP debates with 7-8 opponents? And no, the winky festival with Biden was not a good barometer as he played it very safe and still won big. You don't agree with her? I accept that. You don't like? I can live with that. But can you at least admit that she can hold her ground against Chris Matthews, Anthony Weiner, Charlie Rangel, Kirsten Gillibrand etc as she has down on MSNBC, CNN, Face the Nation, Meet The Press, etc? And can you please let go of the Palin comparisons too...even if it based on looks (which is shallow) Michele is an attractive women who will soon be 58; Sarah is a very old looking 49.

    •  Hmmm (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a gilas girl

      "democrat" politiciains [sic]? Registered 30 seconds before posting first comment ever? First comment ever is a rousing defense of Michele Bachmann?

      I smell troll. And I'll be watching.

      "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

      by sidnora on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 04:23:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry for my typing/spelling (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidnora

        sidnora, please excuse my typo. But I do read the daily kos, and mother jones, and huff post because I am open minded and enjoy reading different opinions. Defending Michele makes me a troll? Really? But if I signed up to bash her, that's fine? This isn't North Korea.....and now that I signed up to post here I hope you do 'watch' my posts because I will defend Bachmann whenever I see her attacked unfairly.I guess I am flattered you'll be following my posts !I hope my spelling and typing don't offend !

        •  I will be watching. (0+ / 0-)

          That your very first post is a defense of Michele Bachmann is indeed a warning flag.

          So is your use of the term "democrat" as an adjective. This is a right-wing meme invented and popularized by Frank Luntz, and an insult to Democrats. The correct usage is "Democratic" (as in "Democratic politicians", "Democratic Party"). If you continue to use this insulting construction you can expect to be hide-rated, and eventually banned.

          "I am open minded and enjoy reading different opinions" is also often a smoke screen used by trolls.

          I am not saying that you are a troll, but rather that you may be unwittingly acting like one. The mission statement of this site is the election of "more and better Democrats", and while our discussions are often wide-ranging and free-wheeling, if you put up a string of comments that defend Republicans, especially crazy ones like Bachmann, and/or insult Democrats, you won't last long here.

          Take this as friendly advice to a newbie; I assure you there are others who would not be as patient.

          "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

          by sidnora on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 02:15:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

      your post makes no sense.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Riane Eisler

      by noofsh on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:18:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  She just came across as rude and stupid (0+ / 0-)

    screeching the same old tired right wing bullshit.  Bernie did just fine (Wolf, as usual, was a joke).

    •  yep (0+ / 0-)

      she can just barely give a straight answer, points fingers at everyone else who isn't 'with the program' on the constantly repeated mantra about tax rates are too high.  All the while Bernie says specifically about corporations paying the lowest taxes since Eisenhower or no taxes hiding money in the caymans waiting for 'conservatives' to get a majority and let them 'repatriate' their trillions of profits on the destruction of the labor market in the US tax free or at some nominal (< 5%) rate.

      "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -James Madison

      by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 12:02:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sociopathic Harpie. (0+ / 0-)

    Ms. Bachmann is a sociopathic harpie with her feet clearly planted in some alternate reality.  Look at her eyes, either she's on drugs or she's crazy as a bed bug or both.

    As always, like the rest of the GOP all the can do is scream and tell people to shut up.  

    Why do the voters put that BROAD in office?  Aren't there any women of decency and intelligence to replace what is clearly a certifiable sociopath.  I wouldn't sleep in the same state with that harpie just out of fear.  

    She is what passes for a Republican these days though.  Maybe she shouild retire and help her husband cure his gay boyfriends. Hahahahaha...

    •  . (0+ / 0-)

      yeah... the eyes say a lot.  Its that dead soul look ... they appear lifelike but the humanity has been left far behind to pursue an ideology.  Not all dead souls have the dead eyes look but she does ... kind of like a shark's eyes while munching on a hapless swimmer that came across their path while they were hunting for food.

      "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -James Madison

      by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 12:06:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  geez she's SUCH a MORON (0+ / 0-)

    The GOP has fought the President kicking and screaming ( and filibustering all the way) since his FIRST inauguration day -

    It's no WONDER we don't have jobs - the GOP won't let any job-creating legislation PASS!

    Gah - Blizter give me gas ;-(

    America's LAST HOPE: vote the GOP OUT in 2014 elections. MAKE them LOSE the House Majority and reduce their numbers in the Senate. Democrats move America forward - Republicans take us backward and are KILLING OUR NATION!

    by dagnome on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 01:46:10 PM PST

  •  interview (0+ / 0-)

    A very aggravating post. Not only did she not address any of the questions directly she was incredibly rude in talking over everyone. Another reason Blitzen is a failed new person. No integrity.

    Of course who am I kidding, myself I guess.

  •  Read my sig. I think it sums up the situation. (0+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately, it works.

    "I guess you think you can psych me out by saying really random stuff." -Sora, Hollow Bastion, KH2

    by SphericalXS on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 02:34:12 PM PST

  •  Bernie didn't call her out (0+ / 0-)

    I can't believe that Bernie didn't call out Bacchman when she said that the minimum wage in Australia is $20 and Ford and GM are pulling out.  

    What he should have said is, "And yet, Australia's unemployment rate is a full point lower than America's, and that's with a 6.7% unemployment rate that you so often claim is inaccurately low because of the number of people that have stopped looking for work."

    I can't believe he missed that opportunity to shut her up.

  •  STFU for a second! (0+ / 0-)

    Michelle Bachman needs to STFU for a second and let her opponent get a word in.   She interrupted him every time he tried to make a point, and she continually dodged his questions.     I wish Sanders would have been a little more assertive in calling her out on her behavior.   The host should have also done that.

    •  That's not how she "wins" debates (0+ / 0-)

      She "wins" by Gish-Galloping roughshod over everybody, all the time, without a pause or a break.

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:38:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  . (0+ / 0-)

      Bernie tried to be a gentleman with a wicked witch of right wing political ideology.  Blitzer isn't a host, he's a shill.

      "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -James Madison

      by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 12:09:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe if he'd said stfu, she would have! (0+ / 0-)

      But I doubt it....

      Seriously, he kept saying 'excuse me' every time she interrupted, and she ignored him.  What a horrible person.  I wanted to smack her.  I give Sanders a lot of credit for his self control!

  •  Loudmouth Liar Bachman (0+ / 0-)

    The fact that this loudmouth bitch was even on the show speaks volumes about how inept and useless Wolf Blitzer is as a "journalist".
    We need intelligent and factual, scientific based discussions not this never ending tirade of bullshit which gushes out of Bachmann's mouth.  Per usual with Teabagger/Republiklan screamers, facts are irrelevant when the "moderator" just lets you spew pure lies and constantly interrupt the other guests.  Blitzer needs to be fired immediately.  How can any "news" organization, besides Fox of course, claim any credibility when they allow this narrow minded bigot Blitzer to insult the intelligence of viewers with stupid statements like "you both make a good argument"?  Get rid of this clown.  CNN is already a joke and not far behind Fox for most likely destination for the uneducated and politically illiterate.

  •  Wolfie..... (0+ / 0-)

    I can't take a douche-nozzle like Mr. Blitzer seriously; unfortunately, there are many who do. Ms. Bachmann is nuts. I don't care if she's 'smart'. Nuts is nuts, and she's certifiable. She has the same non-partisan information available to her as the rest of us, as to why the U.S. economy is in the condition it's in. She pointedly, and deliberately, DOES NOT ADDRESS THIS. Addressing this factually would completely undermine (not to say ridicule) her positions in this debate. Does Blitzer at any point in this debate, DO HIS FUCKING job as a responsible journalist, and point these glaring inconsistencies out to the viewer? He does not. Does he, perhaps, have an agenda of his own with regard to Mr. Sander's positions? You make the call. The pathological persistence with which T-party crazies cling to these ideas, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, is enough to make one seek the nearest bridge or tall building for relief.  

  •  The good news here ... (0+ / 0-)

    ... is that Bernie WILL be back in Congress next year.  Michelle? ... not so much.  :)

    OF COURSE the New Right is wrong - but that doesn't make WRONG the new RIGHT!

    by mstaggerlee on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:19:55 AM PST

  •  ashamed to be a woman (0+ / 0-)

    her and ALL republican women who vote for the right are an embarrassment to women everywhere.  any woman who votes repub has mental health issues as she is voting against all the programs that will lift us up.   REPUBLICAN WAR ON WOMEN IS A FACT.

  •  More work == more prosperity? (0+ / 0-)

    So the hardest working slaves are roughly the most prosperous people? Nope, although maybe their owners are!

    Working more means you get more done, but it is the enforcement of ownership rights that decides who gets the benefits of that work.

    Bachmann wants rights for the wealthy, not for the worker. She wants work for the worker.

    Wealth is too concentrated. That kills competition and fair play. Play Monopoly to get a taste of it. And try starting out with one person (20%) owning 85% of the properties rather than the official start where everyone gets $1500, no more no less.

  •  Bernie should know better (0+ / 0-)

    than to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

  •  Blitzer, what a jerk (0+ / 0-)

    Blitzer either needs to go over to FOX or just retire. Bachmann needs to be put on a rusty, leaky boat into one of the major oceans preferably a shark infested area and then that boat should be torpedoed until sunk.

    I am from Minnesota and on behalf of those in my state, we are truely sorry for having produced Michelle Bachmann. Please forgive us.

    •  . (0+ / 0-)

      "we are truely sorry for having produced Michelle Bachmann"

      We can forgive when you get rid of her and get a human being with a human soul in her office.  Until then, no forgiving will be forthcoming even though we still love you guys.  Its called 'tough love'  :)

      "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -James Madison

      by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 12:12:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sen. Sanders is too polite (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueDem

    to be effective against a WWF team of corporate hacks like Bachmann and Blitzer. He makes many of the same points Robert Reich makes, except that Reich would never let idiots interrupt him and he gets his point across. That doesn't excuse Sen. Sanders. I agree with Egberto that this exchange "should be used to train politicians on how to avoid failing to get their point across." Especially politicians who are on the side of reason and the truth.

    Circenses sine pane

    by sirfab on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:16:22 PM PST

    •  I repeat, dems ( and Mr. Sanders) need training (0+ / 0-)

      Maybe they do get some training, but jeezzz, if so  they need more.

      Make it A PRIORITY. Messaging, messaging, messaging.

      Hire experts. Have group sessions. Practice in mock debates. Not just two or three intense days the month before your election. Practice more often. Also, identify the best debaters among democrats and have fun exchanging tricks.

      Republicans are obviously taking the time to practice their "messaging". They look like carbon copies of each other. They use the same language, and the same strategies. It's the ONLY thing they good at, but they're GOOD. It's not about making sense; it's about repeating a "message" at nauseam.

      What republicans offer is propaganda; and they're taught propaganda techniques.

      Can't propaganda techniques be learned, and adapted, for communicating truth, facts, common sense ?

  •  I saw part of that, and like so many other (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, dfarrah

    "interviews," I thought that "our side" is FAR TOO NICE about letting themselves be talked over constantly.

    In another context, Michael Steele for example constantly interrupts left-of-center spokespersons and they stop talking and let him take over. Then when he speaks, he'll say, "Let me finish" and they'll politely let him. Then he'll interrupt them again and the process will start all over again. The moderates do fucking nothing about this.

    I think long ago conservatives got together and decided to be uber-agressive on talk shows and NOT LET THE LIBERALS SPEAK AT ALL. It's fucking obvious.

    Stop being "nice" people. STOP IT!!!!!

    "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

    by Wildthumb on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:22:49 PM PST

  •  These creeps are all used car salesmen!!!!! (0+ / 0-)

    The wouldn't know how to "fight fair" if they were tutored on the manual.

    They are bullies. BULLIES. Our side has to learn how to fight to win. I love Bernie but so long as we refuse to acknowledge what they are and fight them to win, it will go like this.

    Out there are dozens of Congressional candidates for 2014 who need to learn this lesson. Go for the jugular, and go there fast.

  •  Why in the world would Bernie appear with that nut (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    franklyn
  •  Whenever I see Blitzer (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph

    I reach for my Browning...

  •  I watched the debate (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darth Stateworker

    and Bachmann continued to interrupt and talk over Rep. Sanders and I've watched this behavior over and over again by rightwing blabber-mouths like Bachmann.  They are bullies and thugs.  Bachmann is a shrill, over-bearing cow for the rabid right.  

  •  Liberals tend to spout dogma (0+ / 0-)

    instead of engaging in Socratic dialectic, which I'm convinced is the only way to deconstruct and destroy the other side's well-oiled sophistry. Look for weak points in their arguments and ask them to elaborate. They can't. Their entire argument rests upon anodyne talking points that cover a hollow structure. Make them explain that structure. Can't be done because there IS none. Don't argue FOR your side. Take apart THEIR logic. Get them to reveal the inherent contradictions and weaknesses in it. Stop defending. Tear apart and attack!

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:49:00 PM PST

  •  Bachman is the perfect rep for the Big Lie. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darth Stateworker

    And I bet most Americans sided with her.

    The problem with our system is that it destroys nuance and complexity. Capitalists appeal to the lizard brain and the emotional self, and the only response to that takes time and patience. But that time and patience isn't granted on TV, which is owned by capitalists. They shut down that time and patience, even on MSNBC, which is obviously owned by capitalists. Obviously.

    They have us coming and going, and follow us everywhere. And the entire "liberal" or "progressive" project plays right into their hands. It requires time and patience, and is always outgunned. And even if it gets its chance, it's only talking about changing the margins. It still leaves economic apartheid in place.

    Bernie, OTOH, wants to change the game itself. He's not a liberal or a progressive. But he seems constrained to act as one on TV or Radio. Primarily because America has foolishly decided to demonize and completely shut out leftist ideas, goals and analyses. Primarily because too many Americans have been suckered into believing that they, too, can be millionaires someday, and they're caught up in the prisoner's dilemma.

    As Steinbeck said, Socialism can't take root here because Americans see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires, or something to the effect.

    Until we actually see the obscenity in our system, we won't ever become a just society. Or world. When 85 people hold as much wealth as the bottom 3.5 billion, a moral and ethical human being says, no more. I will NOT support that system in any way, shape or form. And that includes trying to "reform" it.

  •  "We need growth. We need prosperity. (0+ / 0-)

    "We need balloons... and peace in our time."

    The woman is an ambulatory tree stump.

    •  Well, that is exactly (0+ / 0-)

      what we need.  And regular people know this.

      Why aren't the dems using this message?  Oh, it's because it implies criticism of BO's policies and exposes the weaknesses in his policies, and we can't have that.

      The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 09:04:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmm... let's see — (0+ / 0-)

        Helped save the auto industry, averted a complete collapse of the banking industry and the global economy (even if the greedy bastards didn't learn their lesson), cut the deficit in half, extended affordable health insurance to most Americans, ended one obscene 'war', is winding down a second...

        Yeah... terrible policies. Not like the Mighty Republicans who, since 2009, haven't done SQUAT (other than passing more than 40 braindead 'repeals' of the ACA with no prayer of any becoming law, but playing well to the 'Tea Party' assholes in the bleachers).

        The important thing is, you've gotten this far without paying attention. You're on a roll.

  •  Sounds to me like Bernie had the same experience (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darth Stateworker, Egalitare, Patango

    as Obama had in the first debate with Romney.

    People used to rational discussion or at least reasoned debate within an agreed framework of rules just aren't prepared for debating Republicans these days.

  •  "Debates" like this are "won" by the side (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darth Stateworker, Egalitare

    Who can talk louder and faster. Bachmann would have done the same to Robert Reich, who is also, by habit, a slower, more thoughtful and more polite speaker than is Bachmann.

    Blitzer wasn't the "moderator" because he didn't "moderate". Blitzer wasn't even a very good listener; he appeared not to understand either side. He wasn't even a good referee.

    If the moderator is unable to control the discussion through force of personality, then the participants should have their microphones turned off while the other is speaking. A two-handed shouting match is a total waste of the viewer's time, since neither party can be understood.

    I think it's grossly unfair to criticize Sanders for repeatedly saying "Excuse me ..." only to be shouted down. Do we expect him to talk faster and louder than Bachmann? Doesn't Blitzer have the obligation to control the dialog? Giving Bachmann free rein to employ the Gish gallop disqualifies Blitzer as a journalist. His only function seems to be the guy who is there to announce another commercial.

    Vote, dammit, even if you think it won't matter, Especially when you think it won't matter. (-7.25, -6.21)

    by Tim DeLaney on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 09:24:28 PM PST

  •  Groundhog Day (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dfarrah

    all over again.

    Groundhog Day
    all over again.

    A media that reports issues fairly and intelligently, and that holds power accountable, is an inherently liberal institution.

    by Dinclusin on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:07:27 PM PST

  •  The problem with the debate (2+ / 0-)

    is that there was no debate.

    Sanders let Bachmann speak when it was her turn to speak.  Bachmann, on the other hand, repeatedly starting talking over Sanders every time it was his turn to speak.

    This is a problem with both the GOP and todays media.  When one tries to be polite and wait their turn in a "debate", the GOPer will simply talk over you, and the moderator will not tell the GOPer to shut the fuck up and wait their turn.

    You cannot "debate" when you're constantly being talked over.  So by default, if you're trying to be polite, you'll appear to stumble on your words and will "lose" the debate as Sanders did.

    As such, Democrats (and left leaning independents like Sanders) gain nothing by doing these staged sideshows and should simply refrain from doing them.  They gain nothing, and in fact, due to the entire nature of the GOP strategy of "talk over the other guy and make them stutter and appear uninformed", you might even lose people who are not already up to speed on the issues and is learning the facts for the first time.

    •  . (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Darth Stateworker, Patango

      debate without good faith is no debate.  All the globalization over the past 20 years has been without any true debate... it was always "this is what we're going to do and if you don't like it tough shit"  yeah its a democracy or a 'republic' (as so-called conservatives blather about) ... my ass.

      "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -James Madison

      by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 12:19:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Also (0+ / 0-)

    This is a fine example of the old adage:

    Never argue with stupid people.  They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
    Exactly what happened to Sanders here.
  •  We have to stop being nice. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric Nelson, Patango

    When Bachmann said that "it's a proven fact that when you lower tax rates, you create jobs" (note she first noted she had been a tax litigator) Sanders should have immediately and loudly interrupted: "That a LIE! The facts show the complete opposite!" Just like when Bachmann immediately responded to Sander's charge that she wanted to cut Social Security by saying "that's a lie."

    If tax cuts create jobs, why didn't the Bush tax cuts create a jobs boom. Instead, the Bush tax cuts created a financial collapse. That's that Coolidge's tax cuts also created, in 1929, and Reagan's tax cuts in 1987. The fact is, lower tax rates allow rich people to speculate. It allows them to turn our financial markets into gambling casinos.

    And what are conservatives going to do if technology continues to replace jobs? One out of every two jobs are projected to be replaced by technology in the coming decades.  If Republicans and conservatives are unwilling to raise taxes on the rich now to help 1.2 million long term unemployed, what is there position going to be in 20 years when there are 150 million unemployed people?

    We need to begin the fight now to annihilate - and I mean annihilate - conservative ideology and begin formulating a new economic ideology that begins with the fact that we can support our entire population with the work of only twenty or thirty percent. Conservative  economics based on greed, if allowed to survive the next few decades, are going to cause massive social unrest, and the deaths of tens of millions of people.

    I know there are a lot of people on the left that won't like this next part. But the best solution I see now is to to reinvigorate the social gospel of Christianity. The economic ideas of Michelle Bachmann and Paul Ryan and Greg Mankiw and Alan Greenspan and so on must be unambiguously labeled as evil, and condemned and rejected as such. The Bible does not have very good things to say about rich people, hoarding wealth, or ignoring the poor. It's time to get in the face of USA's so called Christians and tell them, they're not Christ-like.

    A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

    by NBBooks on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:28:10 PM PST

  •  tax cuts create jobs?? really? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patango, dfarrah

    Why do they still get away with saying that...
    Bernie should have said, if tax cuts created jobs,
    we should have full unemployment by now... we've
    done nothing but cut taxes for the last 30 years..

    and what have we?

    economic bail outs for the rich bankers!!!
    high unemployment
    more government debt
    staggering economic inequality
    higher costs for college students

    That's what your stinking tax cuts got us.

    Raising taxes could not make it any worse..

  •  With a little imagination, strip Bachmann down.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patango

    ..to her core.

    Take her out of the studio. Dump Blitzer.
    Hit the street and imagine an unwashed bum in need of "depends" half way through his second bottle of Ripple.

    Picture that character mouthing exactly the same words Bachmann spoke with exactly the same venom. Picture her opponent a figment of her imagination. Or yourself watching as you walk by.

    All it takes then is a big mouth, bad manners and a right wing think tank script crafted long before Bachmann with her fevered brain and just enough memory by rote left over to take hold of that script.

    So this ?

    She proved that she is master of the difficult art of effective obfuscation. Many view Bachmann as uninformed or not that bright. That is not the case at all. It takes a high degree of intelligence to take a story like Anne Valdez and make it a story solvable by the same ideology that is causal.
    When every word out of that imbeciles mouth is a lie, and she is excused for lying while calling her opponent a liar, telling him and to "calm down"..

     There is no debate to judge; no mystery/story being solved here by any consistent identifiable ideology; causal or otherwise - with the exception of violent greed and what comes with that as a platform

    Yelling out, over the voice of an opponent, a script of lies designed to pander to the needs of people suffering from the results orchestrated by the same corrupt group who authored the script is no debate

     Irritating noise made a  "success" with access, money and advertising -> aka "news"

    And Yes:

    truth took a beating
    .. but that is it.

     - end of rant

  •  Reminds me of the 2007 debate between Hannity (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph, Patango

    and Mayor Rocky Anderson. The topic: The case for impeachment against George W. Bush. I was looking forward to it because Rocky had been such an erudite spokesman against the Iraq War.

    But Sean Hannity used every trick in the book to avoid an actual debate and spent most of the time accusing Anderson of being some sort of a communist.

    It was quite an eye-opener for me. It taught me to engage the wingnuts from Hannity's audience with extreme caution. They do not play by anyone's rules but their own.

    To engage successfully, you have to be fully versed in: Your position on the topic, acquainted with their position on the topic and have the classic techniques of propaganda committed to memory.

    It ain't easy, but it helps to remember that you'll never convince your opponent of anything... you are performing to the "undecideds" in the audience, and no one else.

    “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing
    he was never reasoned into” - Jonathan Swift

    by jjohnjj on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:58:50 PM PST

    •  . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maggid

      you got that straight.  This should help you understand some of this too... I refer to these quotes whenever I need a reminder a why they say what they do.

      "All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach."

      "All great movements are popular movements. They are the volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotions, stirred into activity by the ruthless Goddess of Distress or by the torch of the spoken word cast into the midst of the people."

      "Any alliance whose purpose is not the intention to wage war is senseless and useless."

      "By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise."

      "As soon as by one's own propaganda even a glimpse of right on the other side is admitted, the cause for doubting one's own right is laid."

      From Adolf's own hand, words the right lives up to and the 'left' cater to or get run over by.

      "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -James Madison

      by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 12:25:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Without reading any comments yet... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patango

    Wow.  Blitzer was the biggest failure here.  No control of that exchange whatsoever.  What a non-journalist.

    That said, I'm sure that was his intention.

    All I really heard was Sanders trying to make some points and then some shrill wah, wah wah....wow.
    I really hope Bachman jumps into the Republican Presidential race....Repub Primaries should be interesting.

    She's more of a troll than someone who has an actual argument on the issues of this country.

    I have no respect for anyone who can't even listen to the argument before they have to respond....

    Uff.  Our Country is in trouble with this kind of 'leadership'.

  •  Yes, She Is Quite Responsible For Her Actions (0+ / 0-)

    She is every bit an evil (you fill in the words).   God will send her to hell.

  •  reminds me of the first debate between romney (0+ / 0-)

    and Obama.

  •  Thanks for sharing, go Bernie. (0+ / 0-)

    I compare the GOP to leadership in the rest of the world and the GOP is the most awful organization, right near some of the worst authoritarian regions.

  •  Control the narrative is the key (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patango

    MOT knows this, KOS knows this and I know this.
    I like Bernie but he is a very nice person and you cannot be nice and hold a debate with rude, ignorant people.
    YOU refuse to let them talk over you.  He was visibly annoyed but he could have shut her up with distraction of focus.   Good example.... thrown a curve ball to shut her up and get louder and refuse to let her shut him down.
    After she started her BS of lies..a look into the camera and
    say, " Well congresswoman, please tell us about your husband your your private business to help the gay, How is that working out for the private sector.. She would have scrambled and lost focus.   Kos said.. I am a veteran... that is how you shut down a chickenhawk or ask them how many wars they have served?   MOT turns their words around on them.. I do some of this stuff too and they do not like it.. They hate assertive talk almost aggression coming from the left.   They think we are all passive.  We are not.

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 03:29:51 AM PST

    •  It is rather shocking (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vetwife

      that Sen Sanders was not prepared for exactly what happened , we have only been watching the Blitzers and Bachmans present this clown car for over 10 years , he should have been aggressive , on message , then flip them the finger while he went out the door

      Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

      by Patango on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 04:32:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Michelle Bachmann (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Krotor

    STFU!
    Bernie showed remarkable restraint. I think had I been in his place I would either have ended up shouting at her, since Wolfie would NOT moderate, or getting up and leaving the set. That was AWFUL!

    "You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" - Catch 22 by Joseph Heller

    by rambler american on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 05:29:16 AM PST

  •  Wulf Blitzer sucked as usual (0+ / 0-)

    This is why I won't watch the U Boat commander.  He lets the right wing nuts get away with spouting bullshit.  Finally he did ask one direct question to Bat Shit Nutso Bachmann on the minimum wage and she said what we know that Republicans do not support raising it.

    yeah Bachmann that woman wants a job and what have you ever done to help her get one.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Riane Eisler

    by noofsh on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 06:00:00 AM PST

  •  Jobs, jobs, jobs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emal

    That's what they keep chanting, both Dems and Reps. It's true that many Americans are out of work but it's only a partial solution. Walmart and McD's jobs are not going to rebuild the middle class. What we need are well paying jobs, with benefits, and wage increases for many many of the jobs that already exist. A minimum wage hike, along with its resultant upward wage pressure on other lower and middle payscale jobs, would do as much to lift people out of poverty, or ease others into the middle class, as a "jobs creation" program.

    •  Ok I take the GOP Reframe (0+ / 0-)

      Of inequality of Opportunity and raise you corporate media and GOP shills like Bachmann and Blitzer.

      And raising the minimum wage increases that opportunity for those to lift themselves out of poverty, or provide a shelter, food and health insurance opportunities for themselves and families. A decent standard of living improves opportunities for young kids to do well in school.

      Let's not stop at raising the minimum wage..how about defined minimum  pension benefits packages, and defined paid sick and personal days, defined minimum vacation days. So that people are given equal opportunity like that of their wealthy folks when deciding and needing to take a day off and fearing their job might be in the line if they do, or they are so desperate for the $$ they can't take a day off to attend to their medical needs.

       And increasing access to free preschool for all also improves equality of opportunity for our most vulnerable children whose families who cannot afford it. Yes children who just happen to be born by luck into their circumstances.

      As does the basic right of access to healthcare...that improves equality if opportunities for everyone, the sick, old, young, destitute amongst us who otherwise cannot access it due to cost.

      And how about affordable or free prek through college education to all as well. That certainly will improve inequality of opportunity and not just be determined by those who can afford it...all the up through college or trade school.

      Social security insurance...for the disabled, the elderly ..that improves inequality if opportunity.

      I could go on, but mainly we need to point out, every single thing I just mentioned the GOP and corporate media folks argue against...and vote against

      So yes, let's talk about inequality if opportunity...because the GOP don't have a leg to stand on, when the argue for cuts to social safety nets, argue against funding education, argue against healthcare, social security insurance, argue against minimum wage hikes...argue against everything but trickle down bullshit economics that has been the practice for past several decades and has done nothing to improve equality if opportunity,

      Government of, for, and by the wealthy corporate political ruling class elites. Elizabeth Warren Progressive Wing of political spectrum.

      by emal on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 02:04:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bernie was set up. By the corporate media. (0+ / 0-)

    I am shocked! Shocked! He should never have gone on a corporate propaganda outlet like CNN.

  •  She's like all repubs - interrupts all the time (0+ / 0-)

    and won't let him talk.  She's full of shit.

    I belong to the Honey Badger Wing of the Democratic Party. We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore. Have you seen our videos?

    by Cassandra77 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 08:16:36 AM PST

  •  Tough debater (0+ / 0-)

    As much as you may make fun of Weiner he didn't take any shit from the Repugs and he is sorely needed and missed

  •  I am not sure that I would be too worried (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ceebee7

    First of all, CNN's latest ratings numbers were flat-out terrible. Wolf might be keeping his job for the simple fact that he the one of the highest rated out of a newsroom full of crap.

    Second, Bachman will be gone in January of next year. She won't be making appearances on CNN after that because she will probably be a regular on Fox. No one cares about here any more.

    Finally, we need to petition to get Elizabeth Warren there. Bernie is getting up there (I love him, but we have to face facts here) and Warren is obviously the heir apparent.

    And a good one at that.

  •  CNN is dead to me. It has been for years. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emal

    Seeing this clip just reinforces my distaste for the type of corporate shilling CNN represents.

    48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam> "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness." Edna St.V. Millay

    by slouching on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 09:39:50 AM PST

  •  Why not just say this? (0+ / 0-)

    Why can't progressive say something like: "I agree with Ms. Bachman; we do need a stronger economy and people do need jobs.  But we must also note that when the 400 richest families in America have more wealth than the combined wealth of 150,000,000 Americans that's a problem.  When 400 Americans have more wealth than almost half our country we, as a society, can not morally say that there's not enough resources for programs such as food stamps, or extending unemployment benefits.  

    Smart people can keep two thoughts in their heads at once.  Jobs, and expanding the economy, are good.  But this kind of hyper-wealth and income inequality never before seen in America is a problem and it's not a radical idea to address it though our tax codes.  

  •  WTF (0+ / 0-)

    is this economic war on women she kept going on about?

    "Disappointment is anger for wimps," -Dr. Gregory House

    by freakofsociety on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 07:07:28 PM PST

  •  Best thing about this story is Republicans (0+ / 0-)

    are being forced to directly defend the 1%, and by name, rather than corporations, which have received generations of love for being large employers... Repubs could do no wrong defending them.  But the ones actually in charge, the rich elite, are now being attacked directly and Repubs see themselves as needing to defend THEM in the wealth inequality discussion.  Methinks the nation is not NEARLY as enamored of the rich as they are of corporations.

    So this is a good development.  I've seen several right wing spokesmen lately taking on this fight, and I don't think it's going to do them any good.  Resentment of the rich is widespread, and getting moreso.

    "There's always room for cello." Yo Yo Ma

    by ceebee7 on Mon Feb 03, 2014 at 12:08:52 AM PST

  •  Lakoff's been saying (0+ / 0-)

    I am dumbfounded that Bernie would not see that coming. What did he think, Blitzer would be neutral? The Right is correct about one thing, we under-estimate them and condescend to them. We can never win over the rural working class if we insult them. Bachmann is indeed very clever and out communicated Bernie ( according to our article, I have not seen the piece). People need to get in battle preparation mode before going into a debate. Since the facts rarely favor their side conservatives are masters of communication with Americans. Their mythology fits with our National mythology well. If we get people to look at reality, concrete plans, we win.

SME in Seattle, Alumbrados, Joe Bob, Sylv, chuck utzman, DowneastDem, PrahaPartizan, oofer, Subterranean, Geenius at Wrok, Shockwave, eeff, expatjourno, Creosote, auapplemac, TracieLynn, jalbert, Cedwyn, wader, Texknight, tomephil, cosette, Steven Payne, lcrp, inclusiveheart, Sembtex, randallt, solesse413, Josiah Bartlett, sawgrass727, Recovering Southern Baptist, scurrvydog, viral, PSzymeczek, CompaniaHill, wbr, peacestpete, mrchips46, zozie, xaxnar, Pacifist, tommymet, Kingsmeg, tobendaro, Arabiflora, raptavio, jpw, gpoutney, katrinka, JVolvo, Randolph06, NancyWH, bartcopfan, Aaa T Tudeattack, Thinking Fella, Habitat Vic, hawaii2, Loudoun County Dem, offgrid, Azubia, gizmo59, MKinTN, mconvente, GAS, Sixty Something, VA gentlewoman, Sharon Wraight, tofumagoo, Jeff Y, Gemina13, GrannyOPhilly, statsone, GustavMahler, legendmn, postalblue, MrsTarquinBiscuitbarrel, in2mixin, Ran3dy, Ravenstream, ceebee7, LinSea, A Southerner in Yankeeland, rbird, elziax, MKSinSA, histOries Marko, collardgreens, rb137, piers, plankbob, Egalitare, addisnana, Maverick80229, 13Friday, stevenaxelrod, slice, theKgirls, Onomastic, Matthew D Jones, Liberal Capitalist, spooks51, ban nock, slowbutsure, Quackerz, La Gitane, Nebraska68847Dem, thomask, BarackStarObama, RMForbes, peregrine kate, ratcityreprobate, StratCat, DRo, Chitown Kev, bassinduo, Azazello, longtalldrink, mikeVA, IowaBiologist, quill, Whatithink, KiB, sow hat, SparkyGump, IndieGuy, Jakkalbessie, David54, joanil, midgebaker, a2nite, JGibson, This old man, LittleSilver, MartyM, aznavy, wxorknot, gross144, avsp, MarkW53, desert rain, simple serf, countwebb, Tim DeLaney, minnec, alice kleeman, Aunt Pat, JerryNA, JosephK74, ET3117, JustGiaco, martianexpatriate, Rich Lyles, nancyjones, CFlaDem, Tom Lum Forest, Dodgerdog1, eagleray, Liberty Equality Fraternity and Trees, Capt Crunch, pierre9045, Skyye, Liberal for Life, RepresentUsPlease, Arianna Editrix, Dan Lancaster

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