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President Barack Obama holds a Cabinet meeting in the Cabinet Room of the White House, Jan. 14, 2014. (Official White House Photo by Pete Souza)
Oh, conservatives will SHOW OBAMA by getting sick. And maybe even dying!
Joan covered this Gallup poll earlier today:
Fifty-six percent of uninsured Americans who plan to get health insurance say they will do so through a government health insurance exchange. That figure has steadily increased since Gallup began tracking uninsured Americans' intentions in October.
But what struck me most was this:
38% say they are more likely to pay the fine the government will assess most Americans who lack health insurance.
That 38 percent generally approximates the conservative fringe of America, you know, the ones who clung to George W. Bush to the bitter end, the ones who believe Obama was born in Kenya, the ones sickened by America's creeping communism. There are probably a handful in that 38 percent who are choosing to pay the fine for non-ideological reasons. But there are many more who are doing so to spite the president.

Because, you see, placing yourself at risk of financial ruin, severe disability, or even death is totally worth it in pursuit of undermining the communist plot hatched at the Heritage Foundation. It's like eating crappy, unhealthy fast food in order to spite liberals. Or refusing to exercise because Michelle Obama.

All these things increase the odds of premature incapacitation or death, and ... that's supposed to make liberals sad? Maybe it does, since we don't think "empathy" is a dirty word. But holding your breath until you die is an odd way to spite your political enemies.

Originally posted to kos on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 12:52 PM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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  •  Tip Jar (205+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SneakySnu, implicate order, BobBlueMass, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, mortje, Mishima, doroma, political mutt, Penny GC, dawgflyer13, Mother Mags, MI Sooner, virginislandsguy, middleagedhousewife, jennyp, highacidity, jwinIL14, TXdem, spooks51, JeffW, BlueJessamine, fumie, broths, maryannm, sidnora, kenwards, jacey, theBreeze, poopdogcomedy, Its a New Day, Vita Brevis, HeyMikey, Onomastic, offgrid, Railfan, SaintC, zerelda, llellet, BlueOak, profundo, Haningchadus14, Heavy Mettle, Deep Texan, blue aardvark, Terre, Siri, pat of butter in a sea of grits, wader, cwsmoke, slowbutsure, pileta, Matt Z, millwood, blackjackal, Catte Nappe, peptabysmal, gramofsam1, ferg, chloris creator, myboo, Left Coast Lib, jedennis, jck, this just in, stevie avebury, Hayate Yagami, Brian82, rat racer, david78209, OregonWetDog, james321, maybeeso in michigan, LucyTooners, Assaf, artr2, Sylv, puakev, wxorknot, bsegel, tari, GeorgeXVIII, koosah, FiredUpInCA, lcrp, ArtemisBSG, Wreck Smurfy, Empower Ink, dotdash2u, rocksout, Mr MadAsHell, Militarytracy, tofumagoo, imicon, miracle11, jasan, Bluefin, G Contractor, reginahny, Einsteinia, OHdog, SaraBeth, BeninSC, IndieGuy, eeff, yoduuuh do or do not, jdmorg, Skyye, rssrai, Aquarius40, FloridaSNMOM, Joe Bacon, Elizaveta, rbird, Involuntary Exile, number nine dream, KayCeSF, a gilas girl, brentut5, TomP, Bulldawg, Jack Hare, MadMs, seefleur, blugrlnrdst, gof, Lencialoo, Glen The Plumber, Mark Mywurtz, GulfExpat, Danali, ModerateJosh, enhydra lutris, OldDragon, defluxion10, myrmecia gulosa, Grabber by the Heel, karmsy, catly, RBinDLH, CJB, mbh1023, divineorder, jamess, lurkyloo, manyamile, awcomeon, Libby Shaw, Linda1961, i saw an old tree today, remembrance, BadKitties, jubal8, AJ in Camden, AdamR510, bigbenny, ruellia, xaxnar, devis1, VPofKarma, WakeUpNeo, NedSparks, JoieDe, IdaMena2, ARS, DRo, cablecargal, niteskolar, Terri, tonyahky, golem, OleHippieChick, shaketheworld, Byron from Denver, Creosote, PinHole, pierre9045, phrogge prince, TexDem, Jamaste, johnrhoffman, The Jester, splashy, ord avg guy, We Won, Denise Oliver Velez, niterobin, ginimck, smoothnmellow, wild hair, weaponsofmassdeception, Dodgerdog1, howarddream, MJ via Chicago, Korhal, sciguy, Front Toward Enemy, Mystic Michael, Benintn, fhcec, RightHeaded, mercedeslackey, annecros, Sailorben, twocrows1023, JuliathePoet
    •  and her congresscritter who (22+ / 0-)

      is "so honored to serve" the people of her district. Thanks ,CMR, for keeping the citizens so well informed! :(

      ..."For beauty," I replied. "And I for truth,-the two are one; We brethren are"... E. Dickinson

      by peagreen on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:46:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But the HARSH TRUTH is some people simply (20+ / 0-)

        cannot afford it, and so they continue to gamble.  

        Because the penalty is still cheaper than paying for it.

        People on minimum wage, and even those on double minimum wage, are HURTING!

        Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

        by Einsteinia on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:22:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  People on minimum wage (36+ / 0-)

          make little enough money that their ACA policies will be completely covered by the subsidy. So no excuse.  The ones who are really in deep shit are the people in states where the Medicare expansion has been refused. They are indeed out of luck.

          But they won't have to pay a penalty.

          •  Some though (13+ / 0-)

            who are married and one is on medicare already so not applying and the other who is has to go by the total income. If the household income is over the amount, then you don't get a subsidy, if you smoke ANY AMOUNT, even 2-3 cigs a days there goes your subsidy and your premium increased again 50% more. They said to me, better I was a daily drunk I guess, that would ok

            Now if that couple who currently support or give shelter and help 3 family members to retrain skills, one to college, one elderly, who have lost everything, then the choice can come down to, stay at risk, pay the fine and help family.

            I know this family, they help three family members who lost all when shit hit the fan. They keep trying to help the one college family member stay in college and the other to retrain for new skills that may help them regain independence, for another year or two.

            So, I know you didn't mean there are no exceptions to it's your choice and not a bright one, but sometimes you gotta stand up to help those who are trying to regain some traction, due to this national crisis to no fault of their own.

            Just wanted to make people aware there are all kinds of potential reasons.

            I know though and don't discount those very ones you write about, they are there is large numbers, I have crossed paths with too many..and that is sad.

            recced and tipped!  Thanks for this diary!

            •  It goes by who you claim on your taxes. (6+ / 0-)

              If you file separately they figure out the insurance subsidy separately. That's why my other half has insurance and I don't. I always claimed the kids, and they're on medicaid. He files separately because he gets SSI, and I was the one working. If we filed together we'd all be below poverty level and everyone would be screwed. If he claimed the kids ditto. But I claimed the kids when I applied, so he can't claim them again anyway.  So, if the family members are adults and file taxes separately, then that's how they need to apply for the ACA.

              "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

              by FloridaSNMOM on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:59:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  They do (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FloridaSNMOM, Joieau, VPofKarma, annecros

                The husband and wife have for all their years filed jointly as married. The one retraining they are helping lives there but files separately, so that income isn't included.  They have one elderly parent they try to provide the exp[enses of his living, since he is only getting 700 a month after a life of working minimum wage... He is way old but still agile and there is no room in the modest home to even have him stay so he lives in one of their houses they had intended to rent for retirement.

                But it was helpful thinking on your part and I thank you for that, for them.  We too  have all racked our heads and hunted for ways he could get the security of insurance but right now it just can't be done. So he opted for written instructions and a non transport to a hospital and no resusitation direction to his spouse just in case. He fully understand his wife would have hardship and he would be looked down on for sucking off the system, if something drastic occurred.

                Very kind of you to try to help them find a solution! FloridaSNMom!

                •  I'm pretty much in the same boat (9+ / 0-)

                  so I thought I'd try. Without medicaid expansion in Florida I'm SOL also, with several chronic medical conditions I'm not getting proper treatment for. I hate to see anyone else go through it too.

                  "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

                  by FloridaSNMOM on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:08:38 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My world as well. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Zero income, as my wife and I have opposite shifts caring for my father, who suffers from CHF, ESRD and dementia. I get day shift and also have to sit with him during his dialysis treatment, lest he rip the needles from his arm. Again.

                    Meanwhile, my state "is studying" mediaid expansion and setting up insurance exchanges, may Corbett's dick fall off.

                    Add in that we both smoke, I was quoted something nice like $500/month!
                    We've been turned down, with no explanation, for medicaid.

                    Want to know the truth? I retired from the reserve, after 27 years, 8 months. I was contracting for the DoD overseas after I had retired. I was making really good money.
                    I declined a renewal of my contract when I learned that my father had become a frequent flier at the local ED with his CHF.
                    So, I returned home to care for him.
                    The truth is, I'm sorry that I returned to this failed nation! Even Arabs are more civilized on their worst day than many US citizens are on their best day. I enjoyed full national healthcare there, with excellent doctors from around the globe.
                    Here, I can't get a fucking asprin.

                    •  This failed nation (0+ / 0-)

                      I, too, am sorry I did not leave permanently when I had the opportunity.  I allowed my emotions to get the better of me - even though I KNEW I was making a mistake.  Yes, I'm glad I now have insurance and my so-called bullshit pre-existing condition can no longer deny me access to health insurance.

                      But why should I or anyone else CELEBRATE THAT?  Oh, is it not wonderful that our nation finally entered the 20th century?  But not entirely.  It just would not do to make the fruits of our nation's labor freely available to one and all.

                      The fact that $35 billion(+) of public funds is budgeted to the NIH for medical research [and unknown hundreds of millions by states to their state universities] does not justify allowing the public to benefit.

                      The image of what the USofA once was is what our power-mongers insist is who it still is.  

                      I no longer live in your failed Commonwealth - thankfully.  But something tells me Corbett's dick fell of years ago, which is what has made him so mean-spirited.

                      "The French have no word for entrepreneur!" G. W. Bush

                      by bbuudd on Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 11:27:52 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  So Much to do (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  I think there is still some fine-tuning that needs to be done to the whole thing. I'm seeing friends who are getting let out because they can't afford regular insurance but do not qualify for a subsidy because they are single. So we're still seeing people being left in the side-lines. For me it's worked out well. We qualify for the expanded medicaid (almost didn't ...Ohio was a hold out for a while). With me supporting a 17 yo still in high school, a 19 year old in college and now my oldest has moved back in as well. I myself get VA health care...but that leaves out the kids (youngest still covered...for now).

                  But I hate seeing my friends who are getting left behind. A friend in expanded medicaid and she has a disabled husband. They have very little income. What does she do?
                  Friend in subsidies and cost is more than she can afford with the cost of living there.

                  Something has to be tweaked somewhere to provide the coverage to those who are falling through the cracks.

              •  It is because of Republican Governors (0+ / 0-)

                Most of the Republican Governors and Legislatures opted out of Medicaid, which means if your income is too low, you are supposed to go die somewhere (or go to another country or state where they do give health care to everyone).

            •  agreed (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mmacdDE, Dburn, thornycuddles

              Friend has been struggling to pay the rent, not insured, work intermittent. Not quite at great subsidy level, but even with subsidy it's several hundred more dollars out the door each month that wasn't going out before, and hard to find. Yes, that's better than catastrophe costs, but... still hard to find. For self-employed (meaning does 1099 work when available) it's hard to calculate the annual income for subsidy or not. It's feast or famine, you know?

              It's not like he wouldn't sign up if it were anything like some of the deals people are getting, but in SoCal the costs are WAY higher than in other areas. So it ain't chump change. At well past 50 yrs. it's not as much of a no-brainer to come up with the $$.

              Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that would be one step toward obtaining it. --Henry David Thoreau

              by pam on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 08:57:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  You meant Medicaid, not Medicare.... (8+ / 0-)

            ...I think.  But your point is valid.  I live right next door to Texas.  New Mexico took the ACA Medicaid expansion. Texas didn't, and so hundreds of thousands of Texans suffer for it.  Just across the state line, New Mexico is already healthier.

            Join Essa in a revolt against the gods. Continue the fight, Causality.

            by rbird on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:07:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Have's and Have Nots (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sue B, rbird, PinHole, wayneonly, thornycuddles

              Its a shame Texas don't vote for politicians that work for the people

              Same is Wisconsin with Walker and the Tea Party

              •  a bunch of us - former Texans.. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wayneonly, rbird

                support the group that is organizing to turn TX blue, Battleground Texas

                The current effort will remove the shame, as well as the depression. The solution is to get active! It is energizing.

                Battleground Texas is a highly skilled, energetic group with experienced leadership. They are working to make sure that Dems in every district register and turn out. They support Wendy Davis for Governor and local Dems who are candidates at the state and national levels. Their goal is to turn TX blue, and I'm sure they will. Nothing beats face to face organizing - not even Koch money.

                "There's nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires." - President Obama

                by fhcec on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 12:13:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  not medicare (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:


            (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

            by PJEvans on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:16:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  so what (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            angel d, annecros, thornycuddles

            Many persons are ineligible for subsidizes and still have no affordable insurance available.  

            don't drone me, bro

            by BradMajors on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 07:21:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry but untrue in Texas (0+ / 0-)

            It is impossible to get medicaid subsidies in Texas. Try signing up as a Texas resident. It really sucks bad.

        •  my congresswoman does nothing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          to help the people in her district living in tough circumstances.  This story in my local paper. CMR encourages people in this willfulness.

          ..."For beauty," I replied. "And I for truth,-the two are one; We brethren are"... E. Dickinson

          by peagreen on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:59:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The deductable for my son will be thousands... (4+ / 0-)

          How is this even legal?  That's not health care, that's business winning.

          What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset. Crowfoot

          by Catkin on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:48:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  one thing to pay attention to are things that (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catkin, thornycuddles

            do not apply toward the deductable. i believe many more plans now include free visits for preventive care or a certain number of free visits. also tests, diagnostics etc may be covered or greatly reduced ,completely separate from deductable. i was surprised, even with my crappy old insurance with a 10,000 dollar deductable, that there were some things in there that allowed for  routine care with little expense.
            dont know for sure on the new policies, but especially if your son is young and healthy the higher deductible plan will be beneficial..and lets hope it all improves..
            i got bumped over to medicaid, thank goodness my  GOP state did expand it though there are glitches.
            they are using completely different income levels, so i am right at the top of their eligibility while still being way below the fed marketplace level.
            the state counts all of my gross receipts as income . in other words even the sales tax i collect for them  and pass on to them when i sell something counts as my income. totally screwed up. so i may well find myself in some sort of  'in between' nowhere'sville as well.
            in addition ,the state says there will be no copays for 2 months and then they will begin to charge copays, but they aren't sure what those copays will be yet...

            i am staying calm because it IS for the better but there is an awful lot of 'we don't know' out there.
            i just hope my state doesn't ditch the whole thing. people have been going without any kind of basic care for long stretches. it has been a crime.

            •  Thanks ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              I've been sad because the health insurance is too complicated and unfair (red state).  But change comes slowly and it is helping lots of people, just not my children and their friends (yet).  Good to know about deductibles; I appreciate your comment.

              What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset. Crowfoot

              by Catkin on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 10:49:17 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thornycuddles, annecros

          why we will pay the fine. I'm on disability, my wife works full time. Insurance at work would leave us penniless each month. We couldn't wait for the ACA. After checking we found out it was as expensive as insurance at work or has a deductible that makes it worthless to us. I am covered by Medicare, my wife goes without. Our incomes are always combined leaving me with no help for prescriptions and putting her in a higher bracket for anything. One step forward, two back. We are hoping to stay healthy enough to make it to single payer, Medicare for all. Being penniless each month is not worth it to us. Something terrible happens......we file bankruptcy. They can have our underwater house.

        •  I have met one of them. Her problem is that she (0+ / 0-)

          is paying about 2/3 of income for housing, leaving not enough money to pay even for the cheapest policy with subsidy, even before paying for anything else like food.  This is a rather high rent area.  I suspect her best bet might be if her mother would take her and her nuclear family in in the house the mother owns.  Three and four generation housing was more common than nuclear family only housing from colonial times through World War II.  Maybe we need to go back to that to make room in our budgets for food, clothing, transportation, and healthcare.

    •  i give Better and her husband a month or two (18+ / 0-)

      before they grudgingly pulls their heads out of their asses and buy health insurance through the exchange

      i grew up in Spokane and the conservative sub culture there and it's all of one big hypocritical joke.  they all claim to be about small government, but the truth is that they LOVE government.  they just don't like sharing it with brown people.  or giving women equal rights.  or acknowledging that gay people exist.  they want the Leave it to Beaver years back.  but as stupid as they vote, when it really comes down to it, they have a limit to their self destructive stubbornness.

    •  Ah yes the crowd of- (6+ / 0-)

      "I ain't paying the gubmint nothing and they can't tell me I "have" to buy health insurance - I'm healthy and not a taker/loser like those other people (those people being, black, brown, or otherwise less "merican than they are).

      This is their typical BS rant against O-care, they simply don't like the black man in the White House telling them what to do.  

      Ultimately, this is my only concrete takeaway from their inane rants.  

      January 1, 2014 - I will again be an "insured" cancer survivor-thank you Pres. Obama!!!!!

      by ArtemisBSG on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:01:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Evolution can take many forms (0+ / 0-)

      The refusal of some to get health insurance may result in the evolutionary removal of their mindset. While it may not be financially beneficial to the Affordable Care Act overall, it may benefit mankind in the long run.

  •  Can we just call this... (31+ / 0-)

    "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest" and be done with it?

    The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy. -Charles de Montesquieu

    by dawgflyer13 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:00:49 PM PST

    •  Instead of a Darwin Award (34+ / 0-)

      they can get the coveted Koch Award.

      There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

      by virginislandsguy on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:08:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No. (34+ / 0-)

      I get the gallows humor in all of this but it is a serious thing. The right wing bubble is hurting good people who have been brainwashed by their hate radio/TV contingent.

      My brother was one of these people. He was not going to "force America to pay for his insurance." He started feeling ill and was smart enough to go to a low cost clinic. Of course he waited almost a year and has now been diagnosed with COPD. The only way he will be able to afford his $400+ medicine will be with insurance.

      I was one of the people laughing at these people. Now that I have seen up close and personal just how distructive it is I want to cry for them instead.

      Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

      by Mike S on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:38:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am sorry for your brother (12+ / 0-)

        and I am so glad he is getting treatment.

        It IS destructive and maybe I am jaded, but I am past the point of feeling sympathy for them.  I have tried over and over and over again to explain and help and show them the good things this law will do, but they refuse to listen... and, instead, I was quite often verbally attacked and ridiculed for being an "Obummer lover" "a stupid DimoRAT" and other stuff that I can't type here.

        I'm over it, seriously. I reached out my hand; it not only got slapped it away, they spit on it as well...

        So, yeah, gallows humor- sure. Serious, definitely- but I am not going to feel one bit sorry for them.

        The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy. -Charles de Montesquieu

        by dawgflyer13 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:06:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've had all of that and more (7+ / 0-)

          from my brother himself. But here is the thing about my brother. He is the nicest guy I know. He would do anything to help anybody.

          The other things are his deep religion and the fact that he spends the whole day in his car. Since the people he listens to claim that they are good christians he believes that they are like him, honest to a fault and wanting the best thing for everyone.

          We all laugh at the right wing echo chamber. We all laugh at the absurd claims they make and the fools that believe those claims. The right wing did an amazing job of conditioning people over decades into believing that the media over all is liberal and lying for an agenda. They did that with no pushback from the media or the Democratic party. After all those decades they have indocrinated their people to believe that their truth is the only truth and even when you bring up established facts those facts are only established by the left to forward a leftist agenda.

          I get the anger and I get the humor that you feel. The problem as I see it is that it is misplaced in a way. Billions and billions of dollars have been spent over the years to convince people like my brother to go against their and their family's own best interests and here we have an example of that that will actually kill people.

          Even though I want to laugh at the people that this is happening to I can't because even though I was able to see thru the bllions worth of propaganda there are too many that couldn't. I find it too depressing to laugh at them.

          Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

          by Mike S on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:25:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Your brother wants to force USA to pay his BILLS (11+ / 0-)

        ..because that's the choice.

        Either you buy insurance with or without help, or you are a big illness or accident away from not being able to pay huge medical bills--which means the rest of us do. NOT having insurance is what makes you a moocher.

        If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

        by rhetoricus on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:22:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  A Barber! (5+ / 0-)

        One Day I stopped by a new barber shop in our small town.  I did not want to drive out to my regular barber's place of business so I thought I would give this fellow a chance.  He was bragging about his opportunity, taking a chance to start a small business.

        He then started talking about VA benefits.  He said that he was a veteran, he had served for 8 years and he had recently signed up for VA Health Care.  Then, amazingly he said, " I sure am glad I did so I would not have to sign up for Obamacare!"  

        I thought how stupid!  You just told me that you signed up for government healthcare, and that you were glad that you were eligible, but you did not want to have to sign up for government healthcare!  How irrational are right wing, tea Party idiots, I wondered.  

        Just about as irrational as this guy.  He probably thought that since I was a gray-haired, balding old white man, I might appreciate his right wing rant.

        I did not.  And, I won't go back for another hair cut.

        My wife, daughter and granddaughters should have more privacy in their doctor's office than I have buying another rifle or shotgun.

        by NM Ray on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:27:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obamacare is NOT government healthcare!! (11+ / 0-)

          It is healthcare paid by private sector health insurance paid for by private individuals who may or may not get gov't subsidies to help  pay the insurance premiums.

          It is a set of regulations which tell the insurance companies what they can and can't do.

          It is  the expansion of Medicaid to the working poor.

          And it is holding business responsible for ponying up to the de facto promise that was made a century ago that employers would be the primary provider's of health insurance for our citizens.


          •  The ACA, or the original full name is: (5+ / 0-)

            The Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act.

            It really is a patient protection vehicle that assures the policyholder their health insurance company can no longer screw them over.

            The only government involvement is the regulatory part of the Act which makes sure we get what we pay for, we are covered for what we think we are, and that the purchase of health insurance cannot drop us from the roles if we get too sick, nor put a cap on our policy to stop payment if it is reached after some horrific accident or illness, etc.

            I am one who likes the name Obamacare.  As a retired health professional the benefits from the ACA are long overdue.

            •  good to hear from healthcare worker (0+ / 0-)

              I am seeing a LOT of right-wing stating that we are quickly losing doctors all over because of Obamacare because the doctors will not make much money anymore. I just can't see it myself. People with coverage are not going to be as likely to try to hold out and HOPE that that pain in their knee is nothing...the tingle in their arm is temporary...the blood in their stool is nothing to worry about. These holdouts are the ones that have no insurance are the ones we see in the ER's with no ability to pay for the bill that will be coming down the road.  It'll reduce the number of poverty level patients who use the ER as a doctor's visit for every little ill and then leave the bill for everyone else to pay. With the increased access to preventative does the doctor's not benefit from that? I've even seen some stating that the ER's are going to be over run with all these new medicaid recipients...but again I digress. They will have easy access to preventative care. Their logic escapes me. I have yet to see any solid statistics from any of those claims of fleeing doctors due to Obamacare.

              •  Your critical thinking is working :) (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Yes, you do hear of a doctor here and there vowing to "quit," practicing because of Obamacare.  The ACA will have no effect over their pay, per se.

                With the goal of having 30 plus millions more people covered, how can all that new business decrease their earnings?

                What preventative care will do is reduce the high expense of treating a condition that has been neglected.  It is more cost effective to treat, for example, a diagnosis of early diabetes, rather than wait until this condition has effected the vasculatory and neurological systems of the patient.

                Unfortunately, the ER will  still be used by those Southern States with their Republican governors who until now have refused to expand Medicaid for their low income citizens.  Shame on them.

        •  Obamacare is not government healthcare. (13+ / 0-)

          The VA is.

          You should have said: "If you'd signed up for Obamacare you could lend your support to free enterprise because all the money goes to private insurers. VA on the other hand is 100% government-paid for healthcare.

          If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

          by Bensdad on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:55:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  It's the same phenomenon as buying a gas guzzling (22+ / 0-)

      ... car, just to "prove" you don't believe in global warming, or the environment, or all that other "lefty" sissy science stuff.

      So, you spend more for the vehicle up front, pay more for maintenance, for insurance, for tires, and for gas ... for years. And all you have to show for it in the end is: you maybe got to haul something that wouldn't fit in a small car once or twice. Though, since I've fit an 8' long tandem in a Prius C (the tiny one), I have a hard time imagining what you'd need to haul that couldn't be made to fit a smaller car. I've hauled 2x8s into a Honda civic, an entire 9' tall antique corner cupboard in a Volvo wagon, and all the feed and straw needed for our chickens in sub-compact cars. We have kids, they played soccer. We ski. We've fit everything we've needed in whatever car we've owned.

      There are two things we needed a larger vehicle for: a utility-size generator, and 2 tons of granite (which took two trips).

      •  Can't carry much in our Chevy Cobalt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        radical simplicity

        but the few times we do need to transport larger items, we can rent a van or box truck from a local truck rental; we do that when we have to move Mr. Scribe's mom's furniture from one place to another. (It's currently sitting in storage, and with her in skilled nursing for the foreseeable future, likely to stay there.)

        There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

        by Cali Scribe on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:13:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Or not wearing seat belts. (3+ / 0-)

        Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will

        by miracle11 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:19:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well, if you need to haul lumber (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        radical simplicity

        you get a truck. (Renting one if your hauling jobs are infrequent.)

        You don't need a Chevy Tahoe Guzzle Utility Vehicle to commute to work. For taking the family up logging roads on a fishing trip, sure--but how often do you do that.

        And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

        by Pale Jenova on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 07:01:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  no (0+ / 0-)

      Most are of an age that they've already had children and passed along their backward thinking genes.

    •  I'm one of that 38%--are you saying I should die? (4+ / 0-)

      I make too much for subsidies but, thanks to my cost of living,  nowhere near enough to afford a bronze-level plan that would cover nothing until, with premiums, I've spent $6,500/year. So instead, I have to gamble that I'm going to incur less than that in medical costs this year.

      So, under your plan, if I die, that's just the improvement of the species?

      •  SMH (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Dark

        The article was about the people who were doing it to spite POTUS, not about people like you who simply can't afford it.

        Because, you see, placing yourself at risk of financial ruin, severe disability, or even death is totally worth it in pursuit of undermining the communist plot hatched at the Heritage Foundation. It's like eating crappy, unhealthy fast food in order to spite liberals. Or refusing to exercise because Michelle Obama.

        All these things increase the odds of premature incapacitation or death, and ... that's supposed to make liberals sad? Maybe it does, since we don't think "empathy" is a dirty word. But holding your breath until you die is an odd way to spite your political enemies.

        The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy. -Charles de Montesquieu

        by dawgflyer13 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:51:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I know -- it's simply frustrating as someone who (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          angel d, ZhenRen, TheHalfrican, mmacdDE

          still can't afford insurance, even after Obamacare, to see my fellow progressives treating that 38% as a punchline when it contains at least some people -- across the political spectrum -- who would LOVE insurance.

          I worry (with no small personal stake) when evidence of systemic problems, like more than a third of the population making what appears to be a grossly irrational choice, is written off as a political statement, and not something (or perhaps a number of things) yet left to fix.

          •  I don't understand you saying you can't afford it (0+ / 0-)

            I'm sorry, but my husband and I have a total in our bank account right now of $50.  We have no savings.  We have back taxes owed to IRS, State of CA, and County tax collector.  We are 45 days behind on our mortgage. But we went on payment plans for all of those and our credit cards in order to be able to buy health care because after food, it is the first most important thing.  We don't have debtors prison in this country so the others can all just fricking wait for their money until we have recovered from the recession.  We refuse to take the chance that we could get cancer or severe heart disease and die because we didn't have coverage.  You are playing Russian Roulette with your health.  I hope you reconsider your priorities.

            The GOP -- Hating Women, Gays and People of Color since 1854
            PS Despite the dumb screenname I picked, I'm female!

            by Former Chicagoan Now Angeleno on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 09:21:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  We think different things are more important. (0+ / 0-)

              I'm not going to go thousands of dollars into high-interest credit card debt that I couldn't pay back in order to get health insurance that only pays for itself if I have more than $10,000 a year in medical expenses.* To me the idea that I'd tank my credit and put no money aside seems like the far bigger risk than taking on the risk that I will have five figures of medical bills this year.

              *The math: premiums for the cheapest plan are $308/mo. The deductible is $3,000, after which the insurance plan covers half my costs. The annual cap is $6,350.

              The basic idea: an insurance plan is cost-effective when my medical costs are greater than the amount I'm paying for them.

              If my medical costs are $0, without insurance I pay $0 and under the cheapest plan, I pay $3,696/yr. (in premiums).

              If my costs are $3,000 out of pocket, without insurance I pay $3,000 and with insurance I pay $6,696 ($3,000 deductible and $3,696 in premiums). At this point, after the deductible's been paid out, insurance finally kicks in, paying 50% of the costs, but I'm still not saving money.

              The annual cap gets hit if I have $9,700 in medical bills. Will I save money then? Let's check:

              If I have $9,700 in medical expenses and no insurance, I'd pay $9,700. With insurance I'd pay $3,696 in premiums, the $3,000 deductible, and then half of the remaining $6,700 ($3,350), which, with the deductible, brings me exactly to my annual cap of $6,350. The total cost I pay to get insurance on my $9,700 medical bill: $10,043.

              That's right: even spending $9,700 on premiums and out of pocket, and hitting the annual cap, I'm still spending more money on insurance than I'm getting back. I have to have $10,043 in out-of-pocket medical expenses before I would break even under this plan.

              •  Do you know how much an accident (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PinHole, radical simplicity

                or serious illness would cost you?  Believe me, if you think you can't afford $9,700, you really wouldn't be able to afford to be in the hospital. An average day costs $4000 (NY Times 12-03-2013). Obviously I don't know anything about your finances other than what you've shared, but I would really encourage you to look for a way to get health insurance. You are risking your health and your net worth without it...

                "The universe is made of stories, not atoms." -Muriel Rukeyser

                by tubacat on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 12:37:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, I'm terribly aware of how much that could (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  cost. I lose sleep over it. It sucks.

                  I have no net worth to risk, unfortunately, and I'm risking my health only slightly more than I would be with insurance: I couldn't afford any non-emergency medical care even with this plan because of the high deductible.

                  That means that what I'd essentially be paying for is a $308/mo. catastrophic insurance plan that makes financial sense after I spend nearly $7,000 out of pocket. And it just isn't a rational decision to spend thousands of dollars I don't have on catastrophic health insurance when more than 90% of Americans spend less than $814/yr. on medical expenses, and the average expenses for the bottom 50% is just $236 (2009 numbers (PDF)).

                  •  All I can say (2+ / 0-)

                    is pray to never get a diagnosis of a major illness. The cost of cancer care is more than many of us can make in even 10 years of working a full-time job. When my husband was diagnosed and had to go through treatment we had to accept Cobra and no choice in that matter...the wouldn't even treat him without insurance.  We paid out $450/mth for Cobra coverage. But I will still left with a bill of well over $50k by the time he passed. I had no coverage on my health for numerous years before that. We could not afford to pay his work provided insurance for more than his coverage. I get VA coverage now because of his death. And my kids will now qualify for medicaid thanks to the expansion. So very thankful for that.

                    •  JDoorjam should hope his/her car isn't broadsided (0+ / 0-)

                      By some idiot on a cell phone who didn't stop for a stop sign. Or any other of a myriad of injuries.

                      There is very little that can be done surgically, these days, for under $15k. A simple fix to a broken nose was $14k four years ago - day surgery, home in a few hours, splint removed a couple days later.

              •  Medicaid in IL just sent me a letter about my case (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                It says: Your annual spenddown amount has been INCREASED to $5,975.00 per MONTH for the next year.  WTF?  I pay for my own insurance to cover my Medicare gap and my son's total medical and he has a $1K deductible and 20% co-pays still and we pay $250.00 a month for this.  IF I was able to qualify through Obamacare (which in IL means you apply for the expanded Medicaid first, which I did, which is what prompted the letter from them as per how much I need to spend on medical bills each month for the next year.  So, yeah, I'm "on" Medicaid, but it doesn't kick in until I pay almost 6K a month out of pocket.  No, we're not rich, it's a disabled mom and a 21 year old who's working and going to school, that's it for income.  Maybe they are counting our underwater house that we're about to lose?  I don't know.  I do know that without the insurance I have, which could vanish any time, I'd be dead.

                ~Arianna_Editrix-- I willingly accept Cassandra’s fate, To speak the truth, altho’ believ’d too late

                by Arianna Editrix on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 03:13:45 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  If you get even slightly ill (2+ / 0-)

                in America today, you can drop $10,000 in a single day.  Easily.

                Cross your fingers, friend. If you're uninsured, you can wipe out your whole financial future in a single day's unluckiness. You could be $50,000 or more in debt before you can say "gee, I wish I was insured!"

                The good thing is that because of Obamacare, you will be able to get insurance at the next open enrollment period, even if you then have a pre-existing condition.

                •  My concern is that if they get ill (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  radical simplicity, elmo

                  they will cost all of US more money.  That is the whole point of the ACA.  Saying you will "wing it" and hope you don't get sick is not fair to the Commons, even if your cost benefit analysis says it isn't worth it if you stay well.  Of COURSE it isn't worth it if you stay well -- that's the basic premise of insurance.  I feel it is selfish to NOT buy it as a first priority after food and shelter.

                  The GOP -- Hating Women, Gays and People of Color since 1854
                  PS Despite the dumb screenname I picked, I'm female!

                  by Former Chicagoan Now Angeleno on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 07:03:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, that's so (0+ / 0-)

                    One of the reasons we've been continuously insured the last thirty years (despite the fact we've never gotten a penny back, in terms of covered costs, until the ACA went into effect) is that we do have assets that could be wiped out in a serious illness.

      •  This is true. (6+ / 0-)

        There are some anomalies. If you get no subsidy, health insurance is a major chunk.  Of course, not having it could result in catastrophic bills. But the fact of the matter is, some people just can't squeeze out the funds as the subsidies are based on gross income and not on available funds.

        If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

        by Bensdad on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:59:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  A question (5+ / 0-)

        J.D., no one wants you to die.

        If you make too much for subsidies, then it's reasonable to assume that you make over $46,000 a year as an individual. Do you not have access to coverage through your employer, or are you self-employed?

        If you are self-employed, then you can deduct your business expenses from your income calculations, which may make you eligible for subsidy assistance. In other words, that $46,000 subsidy limit is net income, not gross income.

        Spend some time looking at the website, and see what's there. Saying that a bronze-level plan covers nothing tells me that there's still some research to be done. The ACA eliminates those "do-nothing" insurance plans. It's one of the things it does well.

        Best of luck to you.

        We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.

        by EighteenCharacters on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:11:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for your very considerate reply. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ZhenRen, D0nt Believe The Hype

          I make just north of $46,000 a year in a field where I do not have employee-provided health coverage. After rent, utilities, groceries, student loans, and withholdings, barring unforeseen expenses, I typically have around $500 a month for other expenses.

          When I say they cover nothing, what I mean is that the expenses are so high that I still don't have greater access to medical care than I did before Obamacare. The cheapest plan in my market is $308/mo., with a $3,000 deductible. Under that plan, yes, I'd be able to get immunizations and checkups as part of covered preventive services.

          But everything else, from psychiatry to prescriptions to podiatry, I'd pay out of pocket until I hit that $3,000. That's on top of the premiums, which means I would need to spend $6,696 on qualified medical costs before the plan would begin to cover some costs (which, incidentally, is more than I have in discretionary spending each month). Even the cheapest option of all is simply too expensive.

          •  Unless you have an accident (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            radical simplicity

            in which case, that 6k/yr is chump change.

            Or if you get diagnosed with cancer. Or diabetes. Or heart disease.

            It is, of course, your choice. And I can understand your thinking.

            It's very short sighted though. And a big gamble.

          •  If you can afford car insurance (0+ / 0-)

            you can find the money for health insurance. Your car is worth more than you are?

          •  Thank you for your very open response. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            radical simplicity

            I can see where things would get a little tight, with student loan payments, medical expenses, and everything else you listed.

            My own experience with the ACA has been similar, but surprisingly inconsistent. I make roughly the same as you, have no children, and buy my own health insurance. My policy was around $195 a month prior to the implementation of the ACA. It was a very basic policy, which covered three doctor visits a year (outside of a wellness checkup) and had a $2500 deductible. My insurance company (Anthem) informed me a few months ago that my policy would be cancelled, as it does not meet the minimum requirements listed under the ACA (because it didn't contain maternity coverage, but was otherwise just fine), and they would move me to a similar policy for (get this) $540 a month. That's a huge difference, and put health care out of reach for me under my current budget.

            During this same period of time, I tried desperately to get the site to accept my information. It kept telling me my application was incomplete, and would not let me look at policies to compare to what Anthem was trying to sell me -- a common glitch, from what I understand.

            Eventually, Anthem extended my current policy for one more year, at a new rate of $220 a month. Also, I was finally able to compare policies on the site, and was surprised to see that the $540 a month policy that Anthem was trying to sell me was $100 more expensive than the costliest policy Anthem made available on the website. In other words, I could get a platinum-level policy for around $440 (which is still too expensive for me, but a lot cheaper that $540). A plan comparable to the one that was deemed "unacceptable" under the ACA would cost about $240 a month, before a subsidy discount.

            Later this year, I plan to move to one of those policies, and take advantage of a small subsidy of $50 a month to keep my insurance costs close to what they were last year. I barely qualify for subsidy assistance, but do qualify for it because I file long-form tax documents, and write off everything I can.

            Which brings me to my next question/suggestion for you: A good portion of the medical expenses you listed would be tax deductible, and might bring your net income down to a level that would qualify you for a health care subsidy. The cost of your insurance, psychiatry, prescriptions, podiatry, is all tax deductible if it meets 10% of your income in 2013 (under the new tax law). It might be worth crunching the numbers.

            You can also deduct the interest on your student loan payments. There could very well be other expenses that could negatively affect your gross income in a positive way. (What a strange sentence -- sign of the times, I guess.)

            Things are very fluid with the ACA at the moment, and portions that seem set in stone are far from solid. My own Anthem coverage, for example, dropped to $200 without explanation, then increased $5 a month to contribute to a pediatric dental risk pool for policy holders with children.

            With so many changes taking place, it's hard to know what's true and what isn't, but that doesn't mean there's reason to lose hope. It's definitely not easy, but I know from experience that it's a much more anxious existence to roll the dice with your finances by not having coverage at all. I hope for your sake and the sake of many more in our position that things eventually become more predictable.

            Best of luck to you, my friend. I hope you'll let me know if there's any advice I could offer that might help you find a solution. I'll be happy to help.

            We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.

            by EighteenCharacters on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 06:22:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  If we had a true "loyal opposition," (4+ / 0-)

        (ie, Republicans who actually tried to make the law better, instead of grandstanding with fruitless quests to end it), we may have been able to help people like you, who fall through the cracks.
        such a wasted opportunity

      •  Thank you for this. (3+ / 0-)

        I am in the same boat and I'm no teabagger!

        More people like us need to say this.  Not poor enough for subsidies, not rich enough for the bronze plan.

        It's like, I don't know, being too young to be a baby boomer and to old to be a Gen Xer.  Blank Generation?

        Good luck to you, I certainly don't think either of us (or my 16 year old boy) should die because we can't afford the crappiest  bronze insurance.

        and people, this is not health CARE it's health INSURANCE

        •  Good luck to you too! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          angel d

          We've got to just keep speaking up, and hopefully, sooner or later, the gaps like ours will get filled in too.

          •  Are you guys (JD and Angel) using... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            radical simplicity

            ...your adjusted gross income from your 2012 tax return as your "expected income" for 2014 at the ACA website? I think maybe people are using gross income there, when they should be using AGI instead.

            Taking JD's case for example; "Just north of" $46k gross income, minus the $13,700 (I think it was for 2012?) personal exemption, his AGI would be somewhere around $33-34k. Try plugging THAT number into the ACA website, and your options will probably look a lot better. Not only will you qualify for some small subsidy, but I bet the plans you are offered will be different; better premiums, deductibles, etc.

            Hope that's helpful.

  •  They don't believe in... (17+ / 0-)

    Evolution either - so no wonder they would voluntarily take part in natural selection.

    “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck

    by RichM on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:01:01 PM PST

  •  Conservatives wanting to die at a faster rate (19+ / 0-)

    Will only hasten any demographic trends that favor the Democratic Party.

    I'm not going to tell the right-wingers to eff off and die, but I am certainly not going to beg them to live.

  •  There's Been a Nationwide Campaign to Discourage (29+ / 0-)

    younger adults from signing up, on the part of conservative groups, so that's probably part of it.

    Did they run an age breakdown?

    Nobody as a group feels safer from health induced bankruptcy than youth.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:04:36 PM PST

    •  The poster "children" selected by assorted GOPers (7+ / 0-)

      have so far mostly been middle-aged and older -- folks who are already easy to scare off of signing up for Internet databases.  

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:07:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fox NOOZ is desperately running polls (0+ / 0-)

      claiming that "youth" are "critical" of "Obamacare," which really says a whole lot of nothing. But we are talking Fox Nooz here.

      And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

      by Pale Jenova on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 07:03:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Frankly I appreciate their stance. (25+ / 0-)

    At least the folks who refuse to buy insurance to spite the President are putting themselves on the line.

    The Republican Members of Congress have been putting America's future on the line since January 2009, and haven't sacrificed a penny.

    •  No, they're not. (4+ / 0-)

      They're putting hospitals and taxpayers on the line, because that's who will wind up paying if they have an accident or expensive illness. If hospitals could refuse to treat people without insurance, THEN they'd be putting themselves on the line.

      If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

      by rhetoricus on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:26:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think you missed some of the HC discussion. (3+ / 0-)

        You are correct that car accidents involving uninsureds are on the taxpayers' dime. However, Uninsured people are on the hook for most of their care.

        A huge part of the argument in favor of Obamacare was the significant number of bankruptcies resulting from hospital bills.

        Hospitals can and do refuse care, every day. The only care they cannot refuse is to a patient with an emergency. Dialysis, diabetes treatment, on-going cardiac problems other than a heart attack - those types of chronic diseases are all on the patient's dime.

        We wouldn't be having a healthcare crisis if all patients had to do was show up at the hospital.

        •  Thank you. (0+ / 0-)
          Uninsured people are on the hook for most of their care.
          It still blows my mind how many people do not know/understand this. Do that many people really think the uninsured are actually receiving "free" care?

          Right away I thought of a dozen people I know with ruined credit from hospital visits or other health care costs. Most of which, are now too poor to file for bankruptcy, even if they wanted to.

          Hospitals can and do refuse care, every day. The only care they cannot refuse is to a patient with an emergency. Dialysis, diabetes treatment, on-going cardiac problems other than a heart attack - those types of chronic diseases are all on the patient's dime.
          That they do. Some will even turn away a patient with emergency problems, if they feel it is not enough of an emergency.
  •  Why don't 'baggers understand the phrase... (8+ / 0-)

    'Government of, by and for the people.'?

    Why are they place so afraid of the 'of' part when 'teh other' is in power?

    Do they have so little belief in government that they don't trust the 'for' part when 'teh other' is in power?

    Is their only focus the 'by' part, when 'teh other' is in power?

    (On bended, withered knee I offer my deepest apologies for "ST[EALING] JVolvo's priceless zinger of a certain dour and disapproving uber-pragmatic meh-dispensing sourpuss without giving appropriate credit!") - said in the manner of Igor

    by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:07:02 PM PST

  •  I'm skeptical, kos. (23+ / 0-)
    There are probably a handful in that 38 percent who are choosing to pay the fine for non-ideological reasons.
    We have no real way of knowing how big the "spite Obama" percentage is, but I'd argue it's probably not all that big.
    It's like eating crappy, unhealthy fast food in order to spite liberals. Or refusing to exercise because Michelle Obama.
    I'm not convinced these happen either.

    What's far more likely is some people continue to make a calculated risk, one that a small fine didn't really impact.

    •  For those continuing uninsured, perhaps (9+ / 0-)

      But among the folks WERE paying for policies, albeit minimalist ones, spite a.ka. ignorant fear has to be the major driver.  Because the dollars they were spending before qualify them in almost EVERY case for better and cheaper coverage via the exchange and usually subsidies as well.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:15:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You covered my thoughts (5+ / 0-)


    •  I personally know (15+ / 0-)

      at least one person who is clinging to her very, very expensive insurance and refuses even to look at what might be available for her on the state exchange. It's not junk insurance, and it's not getting cancelled, so it's not quite as crazy as choosing to go naked rather than submit to the soul-sucking evil that is Obamacare, but it certainly falls into the cutting-off-one's-nose category. This person is not exactly rolling in dough.

      "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

      by sidnora on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:28:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Give it another year. (8+ / 0-)

        IIRC in 2015 all policies will have to meet the Obamacare minimum criteria. By then a good % of the outrage will have died down.

        "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

        by HeyMikey on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:30:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Might be concern that she'd have (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidnora, mmacdDE

        to change doctors, if her current doctors didn't accept her new plan. We ran into that worry when we were changing insurance plans when Mr. Scribe retired in late 2011; since we had to pay for my coverage out of pocket we wanted a plan that wasn't quite as costly (his former employer pays for his coverage; I think they'll pick me up when I hit 55 but he needs to call his former employer to clarify that). Fortunately our new insurance added an affiliation with the medical foundation we used, so there was no problem. (Not only is it cheaper out of pocket, but we get our prescription meds with zero co-pays which still amazes him when he goes to pick them up.)

        If you've got some tricky health issues, you want to stay with folks you know rather than start from square one even if it means paying a little more; with Mr. Scribe it would have been hard because he's under annual screening to make sure his cancer doesn't come back.

        There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

        by Cali Scribe on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:23:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Worrying about having to change doctors? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OleHippieChick, QuelleC

          That really amuses me. Whenever my sister or her hubby changed jobs there was the risk that they would have to change doctors. They have done that 2 times now.

          In another case, their doctor left to take on a job at a teaching hospital out of the area. Yet somehow they have survived the horror.

          I had to change doctors when our old family doctor died in his low 80s. My doctor I got with to replace him was 4 years younger than me but died at 58 or so from ALS so I had to look for another doctor.

          I survived both of those events just fine. Surely people don't think doctors show up with a lifetime guarantee.

          “We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

          by astrogeology girl on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 11:17:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Your point is a valid one, (0+ / 0-)

          or it would be if she even went onto the exchange to see what's available. She hates hateshates Obama so much, I think she's afraid that her computer would get cooties if she went on the website. We're in NY, which has always had better insurance regulation than much of the country, and I'd be surprised if she couldn't find a plan there that was at least worth considering. If she then rejected it for a valid reason, that would make perfect sense to me, but this isn't that.

          "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

          by sidnora on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 06:00:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  She Has Two More Months To Enroll (0+ / 0-)

        Keep working on her

        Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

        by bernardpliers on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:17:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I am quite certain that conservatives JOKE (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, wasatch, ItsSimpleSimon

      about doing those things. They may also use pissing off liberals as excuses for doing what they want to do anyway.

      I'm on a mission! Testing the new site rules.

      by blue aardvark on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:41:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There are many, I know, in GOP-led states (0+ / 0-)

      falling between poverty level cracks filled in fully implementing states - or so unaware of the value of the options available to them that they would, knee-jerk fashion, say "pay the fine."  The first set cross their fingers, hope not to die, perhaps the second group as well.

      What I am quite sure of is that the 38% fine-payers demo is far from monolithic - certainly not all whistling past the graveyard, pinning their Obama voodoo dolls out of malice.

      There is some really gritty fodder for optimism not covered in this story, nor was it really dealt with in Joan's piece to which Kos links.

      But, I'll address that in another comment.

    •  Tell them Barry said to breathe (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sharman, OleHippieChick

      and watch them turn purple.
      I'm convinced the "spiters" are a larger segment than you think.
      Haven't we seen how so many of these people continue to vote against their better interests because of "that communist/socialist/nazi/negro?"

      They have taken stupidity to new heights, then refined it.

    •  they're "doing the patriotic thing" so that (0+ / 0-)

      "Obamacare" will die

      and then of course they think they will be able to game the system by waiting to buy insurance when they need to use it  

      not realizing that the insurers are better at gaming the system and will make it prohibitively expensive or unavailable  

  •  They Think The Fine Still Gives Them Coverage (39+ / 0-)

    I had a business owner ask about what happens if he just pays the fine but then gets sick.  I said "Well if you break your leg, you might end up losing your house."

    I know it's funny to think that people don't grasp this concept but I guess they just live in fog of fantasy and magical thinking.

    Of course, maybe they have been conditioned to think that not having insurance entitles them to the magical endless government gravy train of free stuff that lets  every illegal immigrant live like a king.  You know that po' folks gravy train they keep hearing about?

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:08:03 PM PST

  •  Hypocrites! How many old tea party goobers (22+ / 0-)

    are refusing their social security check to spite liberals? Of course, if SS were Obama's idea ...

    stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

    by Mother Mags on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:10:00 PM PST

  •  They best get busy raising chickens to pay with. (15+ / 0-)

    Only Punxsutawney Phil can save us now.

    by jwinIL14 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:11:06 PM PST

  •  There are likely some (11+ / 0-)

    who just can't fit the cost of the monthly premium into their budget.  They're willing to gamble they won't need coverage instead of selling their car or moving to a smaller home.

    Money is property, not speech. Overturn Citizens United.

    by Betty Pinson on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:11:10 PM PST

  •  Most of the public are very unaware (5+ / 0-)

    I would guess that a lot of that 38% believe they can't afford insurance (probably including many who qualify for Medicaid).  I think the 'cutting off nose to spite face' people are likely a small minority of the 38%.

    Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

    by benamery21 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:11:49 PM PST

    •  Some (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peregrine kate, QuelleC, frostieb

      who might qualify for medicaid are choosing keeping their home and whatever they have worked for debt and lien free instead of being able to have healthcare.

      There is a diary about that, in so many states the state has a law that they will be reimbursed for you having medicaid once you pass.

      This lady did 3 diaries on this, many are perhaps having this happen without knowing.

      I though am all for all to get it if they can afford it at all, so don't get me wrong. There are just those technicalities and we don't know how many of the 38% have additional reasons that make it impossible.

      Should we really have to sell a modest home in order to pay for healthcare, when we have it paid for and it meets out family size needs?  It can be a quandry

      •  Another scare tactic (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        If you are under 55, asset recovery by Medicaid is not an issue, anywhere.  Those 55-65 should pay attention, but in most cases they will not have an issue either.

        Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

        by benamery21 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:52:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Would you add a link to the diary you mention. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I wasn't aware of this until I read about in another diary and knowing it prompted me to take money out of my 401k which will be treated as income instead of taking the medicaid.  I have assets, but didn't have income until I decided to start taking 401K money.  I think this medicaid problem should be more widely known.  Even the navigator here in Colorado who I asked about it, didn't know.  In fact she told me it wasn't true.  But I did more research and figured it out.  

        •  frostieb Here's the one Link (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Estate Recovery and the ACA: drastic differences between states      

          In that diary she has links to two other previous diaries this author has written while trying to pin down more details and state info etc...

          benamery21, you may be right but people are concerned as they find this is possible and until they find out what the law of their state is.

          The family that I am familiar with their situation are in the 55-65 bracket you speak of. They are also in a red state with teabagging at the helm and need to find out for when they can see affording insurance for the one.  They do not really trust the state that it will not change the rules to increase the states take.

          You may feel it is an unrealistic scare tactic and I agree it can be used that way, this is not this case. BUT having said that, the people should KNOW what the possibilities are so that they can get informed about the law of their state and not be blindsided and lose what they worked for all their life, while if they just qualified for subsidy would not have to risk everything.

          Take care all

        •  frostieb (0+ / 0-)

          It varys the extent by state, some even reuire money even though you don't use it. I dont think there is a lot of that, but I sure think it is smart to investigate thoroughly what the laws are in your state, to be sure

          Hope that helps, take good care

  •  Sit In The Garage With The Car Running (18+ / 0-)

    Bill Mahr said something like "If Michelle Obama tries to get americans to eat healthier, Republicans will go sit in the garage with the car running, eating bacon grease out of a coffee can."

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:12:32 PM PST

  •  I'm really going to show Obummer (12+ / 0-)

    I'm going to go without insurance and then stick my hand into a snowblower!  He'll be sorry he fucked with me.

    The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

    by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:18:45 PM PST

  •  We get to pay less for better health coverage (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HeyMikey, MrBigDaddy

    and thin the herd too? No....please....don't.

  •  Many of them probably can't afford insurance. (11+ / 0-)

    There are some states in which low-income people don't qualify either for Medicaid or for the subsidies under Obamacare. For such people, getting insurance would consume a huge percentage of their income, which they might not be able to afford. Therefore, many of them will choose to pay the small fine instead.

    The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

    by Eric Stetson on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:22:15 PM PST

  •  And who will be the first and loudest (12+ / 0-)

    to scream when something happens to one of them or theirs? I am not giving them the "courage of their convictions" benefit of the doubt.

    The minute something happens, they'll flip like a pancake and sign up for coverage. And you know what assholes? You'll be able to because thanks to the President about whom you're deranged, you can't be denied for pre-existing conditions including having your head up your ass.

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:32:37 PM PST

  •  actually (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wasatch, Randomfactor

    a double ultimate cheeseburger sounds fantastic right now, screw the food nazis!  all kidding aside, i think these folks are also subject to brainwashing a little bit, and not just making their own bad decisions

    free the information

    by freelixir on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:33:10 PM PST

    •  oops (0+ / 0-)

      I actually meant to say double ultimate cheeseburger, those in the know know what I'm talkin about, though honesty a duck larb is probably the most exquisite thing you'll ever eat, prepared correctly (as in Thai Town!).

      free the information

      by freelixir on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:03:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  plenty of dumb southern folks (my family) (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jedennis, rhauenstein, Aquarius40

    will do exactly that.

    some have been going without health insurance for years, so this really isn't different than before Obamacare.

    it's just another healthcare plan they hope they don't need. they rather spend their money on alcohol and cigarettes.

    -You want to change the system, run for office.

    by Deep Texan on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:36:55 PM PST

  •  This ought to change (9+ / 0-)

    I believe the fine is only $100 the first year and then rises.

    As stupidity gets more expensive it will be less popular.

    I'm on a mission! Testing the new site rules.

    by blue aardvark on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:38:29 PM PST

    •  $95 or 1% of your income, whichever is larger (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue aardvark, Aquarius40, QuelleC

      So on $24,000/yr that would be $240.

      We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

      by bmcphail on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:20:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is Income (0+ / 0-)

        only that which you work for, either for an employer or self employeed?

        Do like selling a property one year count as income? Is SS included?

        Or is it as I suspect, simply the GROSS on your tax returns irregardless of the source of it.

        So if you get old and sell a family piece of property (say it was a nest egg for retirement) for say 500,000 one year and make 7000 through rental and 12000 from ss and a 7000 from self employed, then you could pay a fine of say almost 5500 dollars BEFORE taxes.

        If like the family I know they are helping two family member get schooling one to retrain and one to complete 4 year college for nursing and taking care of elderly parent, and one smokes now still, about I think it was 3 to4 cigs would have to pay about 500 a month for just one person, no health issues either,  . And that would disable the assistance to the family members trying to regain financial independence.  

        But they are responsible and signed a no resuscitate and in writing instructed the spouse to not call for assistance or ambulance until they were sure they had passed so that the family would not have further hardship and could continue to try to rebuild...

        I am sad for them but yeah it is his choice. At least for now

  •  "SAY they are more likely" (9+ / 0-)

    Some number - probably not an insignificant number - of that 38% are blowing hot air, talking a good ideological game, but are actually likely to privately act in their best interests.

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:46:41 PM PST

  •  Whatever... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pashber, Anne was here, Aquarius40, Apost8

    I'm sorry, but I'm getting sick of having to drag these people into modernity every step of the way with them kicking and screaming the whole time. If they're too stupid to know what's in their own best interest, then let's just do it without them and let them see the end results. It's apparently the only way they'll learn. Every belief they've ever had has been discredited and they refuse to accept it so fuck 'em.

    We're moving on without you. If you want to come along, great. But we won't wait for you. You're dead weight, cons. I don't like the idea of letting these bitter moochers off the hook, but I'm sick of fighting with them. Once they see the system works, then we'll be able to rub it in their faces but they're becoming more and more of a fringe minority. So let's just move on without them.  

  •  KOS, DELETE MY HEALTHCARE!!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wasatch, chloris creator

    I have a damn right to get sick!

    "Reality has a well-known liberal bias." - Stephen Colbert

    by Rob Dapore on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:52:47 PM PST

  •  So crazy and stupid at the same time. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gramofsam1, Aquarius40

    So the white power people think that a mixed race couple on a Cheerios ad is genocide against white people while millions of their conservative brothers and sisters refuse healthcare to spite some black guy and then eat all the junk food they can to spite his wife.

    This looks a lot more like suicide than genocide to me.

    That passed by; this can, too. - Deor

    by stevie avebury on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:53:46 PM PST

  •  Look no further than "Bette in Spokane". (n/t) (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wasatch, gramofsam1, FiredUpInCA
  •  Similar to (8+ / 0-)

    when Obama was running in 2008, he proposed a tax increase on those making more than $250,000 (eventually raised to $450,000).  I was in a diner in rural Minnesota in October 2008 and 5 guys who were about 55 years odl were sitting at the next table.

    One guy says, 'I made $300,000 last year.  No fucking way am I letting Obama gouge me.  If he gets elected, I will just quit my job and just give my company away.'  Now, rather than paying 4% more on his last $50,000 ($2,000) this guy was saying publicly that he would quit his job, give his company away, and make $0 so Obama couldn't "gouge' him.

    Do I believe that he did so in late January of 2009?  No, I do not.  Do I believe that people will SAY they won't get health insurance cuz they hate Obama?  Yes, i do.  If polled in 2008, might I have said I would go on a killing spree unless GWB was impeached?   Sure.  We shall see what actually happens.

  •  The young invincibles have always been (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MPociask, Patricia Lil, bmcphail

    able to get insurance, they just chose not to. These folks either believe it will be cheaper to pay the fine, or are just being stubborn. I predict that some of them will come around as friends get covered, or after they actually aer forced to pay a fine.

    "Nothing happens unless first a dream. " ~ Carl Sandburg

    by davewill on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:58:49 PM PST

    •  Or after a buddy has an accident that costs him (0+ / 0-)

      $50,000. Maybe then they'll connect the dots?

      •  I think this is a really great point, actually ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        peregrine kate

        So many of us don't realize how vulnerable our bodies are.  It's as if our very flesh has been re-defined as being part of our "disposable" culture.  And if something does happen, "they'll fix it" because they always fix it on TV.  Look at the way some people drive!  Do they have any idea how quickly their recklessness behind the wheel could cause a life-changing event?  The way the eat?  Same.  It's just brutal how short-sighted and self-serving so many of us have become.

  •  There may be some (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patricia Lil, bmcphail

    ...who genuinely believe it's the cheaper route for them.  I imagine they're young and invulnerable...and stupid.

    America, we can do better than this...

    by Randomfactor on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:59:52 PM PST

  •  These leaches if they get sick (0+ / 0-)

    should not get any subsidy or help from the taxpayers. They refuse to get insurance because to make an ideological point. They should continue to make this point by refusing any taxpayer help  

    Clinton/Warren 2016

    by artr2 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:59:55 PM PST

  •  Stupd is as stupd does (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    We just hired a new employee whom was self employed and uninsured. When I told him that we offered health insurance after his 90 day probation he was thankful. He also said he was planning on paying the fine instead of getting coverage which he probably would have qualified for the subsidies because he did not like the idea he was being forced to get healthcare insurance because of "Obamacare". I told him he needed to change his viewpoint about it because it will ultimately be good for everyone. He agreed that I was probably correct. He is still a man in his 30's but had some medical bills that he was paying on. Once people realize that it is less money to pay premiums than to risk bankruptcy or paying medical bills for years they will change their tune. I am still paying on medical bills from a surgical biopsy from a year ago and I had health insurance.

  •  Don't worry. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    davewill, Mokislab

    Word of mouth will win out, in the long run.  Once a few of them go to financial ruin, the rest will come along, albeit kicking and screaming.  It's all going to be good.

    If you acknowledge it, you can change it.

    by Raggedy Ann on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:01:40 PM PST

  •  I know people who are paying more (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FiredUpInCA, Mokislab

    than they probably have to because they simply refuse to go to a website and see if they can get a better deal. They will not even research what their options are. And these are people who are not rolling in money. They seem to also be unaware of what kind of cost savings are available. Yes, I told them, but they will not go to that scary scary evil government website.

  •  not all is for politics (0+ / 0-)

    my ex will not be getting insurance this year because she smokes and it is just too expensive for her. Next year or the year after she probably will get it because the fines go up. But this year, at least, she plans on paying the fine.

    But I'm sure that most of that 38% are refusing for political reasons. I'd bet that quite a few of them get insurance quietly but won't admit it to a pollster.

  •  Anyone that stupid (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    should remove themselves from the gene pool. The rest of us will be  better of because of it!!

    Dogs and Philosophers do the greatest good and get the fewest rewards (Diogenes)

    by Out There on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:04:54 PM PST

  •  Thuglican suicide-murder, backasswards on that too (0+ / 0-)

    "I'll commit financial and/or actual suicide by not have health care and then that'll kill Obamacare!'

    Of course, suiciding first rarely achieves the other end of the equation, but then they do believe in many strange things.  And nevermind, the hope that killing themselves will murder the ACA and other Americans who will literally die without it (bc there's no other payment for health care).

    Tho it is almost certain, based on history of RW hissyfits since '08, that far fewer will decide to commit healthcare-cide than will loudly bray to pollsters that they are.

  •  A lot of people just don't have the disposable (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    income to buy even subsidized insurance.

    “One life. A little gleam of Time between two Eternities.” -- Thomas Carlyle

    by Rikon Snow on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:05:43 PM PST

    •  But if they don't shop, how do they know that? (5+ / 0-)

      Some are probably Medicaid-eligible; some could get at least a bronze plan for pennies.

      If someone looks at their actual options and decides not to buy, I might disagree, but it's their budget to figure out. There are undoubtedly some out there, especially in the non-Medicaid-expansion states. But the people who have decided not to even go look at the options? I don't get it. That's not rational budgetting; that's ideologically-driven stubbornness.

  •  These people are parasites (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    They are the takers in our society.  They take Social Security, but want to deny it to unworthy others.  They take Medicare, but want to deny it to unworthy others.  They take farm subsidies, but deny foodstamps to unworthy others.  They take tax breaks, but deny them to unworthy others.  They take emergency aid for disasters, but deny it to unworthy others.  They cash their unemployment checks, but deny them to unworthy others.

    I take it back.

    They aren't parasites.

    They are vengeful parasites.

    These are the ones who will pay the fine, maybe once, but when they get sick will get their care on the backs of the rest of us as uncompensated care.

    These, I guess, are real 'Muricans.

    You don't need a quadrophonic Blaupunkt, you hayseed. You need a curveball!

    by GoBlue08 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:06:21 PM PST

    •  Some are parasites. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aquarius40, mmacdDE

      But I am concerned some of these people are young adult children/relatives of T-Publi-cons who are telling their kids that this nothing but Big Gov't rip-off Obamacare and have convinced them to not apply.

      I read a lot of this on FB, some of the kids aren't listening to them.  But there are some with very radical "Freedoms" parents who are brainwashed.

      Then there are the people who are afraid to apply. They are confused.  I have told a few to get help with the navigators, and one woman told me she didn't understand a thing she was saying.  I have to say, the ignorance in this nation is overwhelming me.  Some people need to have their hands held, some won't even bother.  You can lead a horse to water....

      And, yes, I think SPITE has a lot to do with it.  I said that yesterday on another of Markos' diary.  Pure spite.

      I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

      by KayCeSF on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:38:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Do you have any evidence to back this up? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    That 38 percent generally approximates the conservative fringe of America, you know, the ones who clung to George W. Bush to the bitter end, the ones who believe Obama was born in Kenya, the ones sickened by America's creeping communism. There are probably a handful in that 38 percent who are choosing to pay the fine for non-ideological reasons. But there are many more who are doing so to spite the president.
    Maybe a large % of that 38% is misinformed about their options. Your assertions might be true, but they might reflect your prejudices.

    look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

    by FishOutofWater on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:06:40 PM PST

  •  You forgot... (5+ / 0-)

    ...buying incandescent light bulbs and idling your Hummer until the gas tank is empty.  "Yeah!   That'll show Obummer!"

  •  I wonder (0+ / 0-)

    How much of that 38% is the young people that first think they are immune to health issues and second realize that it is cheaper to just pay the fine?

    In any case, I think a very large number of that percentage are our young and that is going to cost us as taxpayers dearly.

  •  I thank them for trying to improve the gene pool. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GoBlue08, Aquarius40

    If they want to risk financial ruin by not getting health insurance, that's perfectly fine with me.  But they have to remember that hospitals are going to reluctant to treat one of these boobs that show up without resources, demanding to be treated.  Funding for that service is being decreased substantially as part of the PPACA.  
    But if deliberately stupid people end up dying off sooner because of their stupidity, I approve of their efforts, to paraphrase Mark Twain.

  •  Really? This is the kind of post (6+ / 0-)

    that goes on the front page these days? Shit like this:

    That 38 percent generally approximates the conservative fringe of America, you know, the ones who clung to George W. Bush to the bitter end, the ones who believe Obama was born in Kenya, the ones sickened by America's creeping communism.
    doesn't help anyone. Instead of noting that hey, 38% is a pretty sizable number of people, and trying to delve into the reasons that they might not be signing up for health insurance, this post just assumes that nope, they're all just doing it because they hate Obama. It's ridiculous.

    I can think of three very legitimate reasons why people might not be signing up, and none of them have anything to do with hating Obama:

    1. They can't afford insurance, even with the subsidies
    2. The insurance on offer that they can afford is worthless junk, with huge deductibles and/or out-of-pocket costs
    3. They don't want to be forced by law to pay for CEO bonuses and corporate profits

    And that's just off the top of my head. Maybe there are more reasons. But instead of trying to figure out what they might be, you just handwave it all away by saying they just hate Obama. Very disappointing.

  •  I don't think they should be fined (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    You might, however, suggest that if they are not participants in the process, they can't be recipients either. If they choose NO HEALTH CARE FOR ME, the government should honour that decision, to the end.

    Stupidity is its own punishment.

    Until inauguration day The USA is in the greatest danger it has ever experienced.

    by Deep Dark on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:11:13 PM PST

  •  Here is a positive stab at one of the poll numbers (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ahumbleopinion, mmacdDE

    Of those uninsured 53% will get insurance.

    That is absolutely huge.

    It far outpaces the ~ 14%  rate of signup needed to meet CBO or HHS/CMS projections of coverage to make the exchanges work.

    Now, this is Gallup, so, big grain of salt. But 53% of uninsured signing on for insurance would be roughly 20-25 million covered.

    CBO and HHS models, with all their faults (or our faults in interpretation and use of their models) notwithstanding) demanded roughly 7 million signups, 14%.

    February and March may be very busy months. In every state.

  •  ERRRRRRR (0+ / 0-)

    Who told them she smokes?It's good you guys are as honest as the insurance companies were when we were fighting for the ACA.  

    If I said anything that offended anyone, you probably deserved it.

    by Mokislab on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:13:26 PM PST

    •  Interesting (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Its the only penalty, it is an addiction, that was promoted and still (I assume) subsidizes by tax payers, but those hooked back when advertizements were all over and bohner was passing out thanks checks to congress...

      But, hey you can be addicted to drugs, alcohol, even eating and overweight because of the overeating (which can too be an addiction) and that is okay...

      So do they just lie about it? SAd day..

      BUT I am all for everyone getting healthcare if they can. I am not for those who are not doing it to spite ot who are trying to misinform the people.. So I have no argument.

      Again remember another real scary part is the medicaid capture of all assests if you are thrown into medicaid and have saved and bought house, property or have any estate (this is in 3 diaries in kos) and no media is talking about it or as far as I can tell even informing those who might get through automatically into medicaid and not know this is something that their state requires.

      see diary by beverlywoods on this

    •  They check with your doctor or intake physical n/t (0+ / 0-)

      ~Arianna_Editrix-- I willingly accept Cassandra’s fate, To speak the truth, altho’ believ’d too late

      by Arianna Editrix on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 03:30:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Booby Jindal is killing the people of LA. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pale Jenova

    just by refusing to opt in. To think thousands (or is it tens of thousands?) of people will suffer because of his self-centered political ambition and ideology driven agenda is disgusting to me.  

    "Onward through the fog!" - Oat Willie

    by rocksout on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:13:47 PM PST

  •  evidence please (0+ / 0-)

    else say "in my opinion"
    because from the extensive fine coverage from NPR, many are likely to be young people for whom the fine is less expensive than coverage and who do not feel vulnerable.

    Likely stupid young men (in my opinion).

    •  Most young people would not pay much (0+ / 0-)

      Unless their state "opted out" of the Medicaid expansion, in which case they stay uninsured by default. But most young people either stay on their parents' plan until age 26, or heavily qualify for subsidies.

      And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

      by Pale Jenova on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 07:07:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think there's faulty logic in this article (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, AlexDrew

    In a lot of red states Medicaid was not expanded and it is cheaper to pay the fine for a lot of people who can't afford much monthly premium.  In fact a lot of them probably won't be fined because they don't make enough money, but they don't understand that yet.

    So I'm not sure all of this is to spite Obama.  Some of it is the result of pig-headed state politicians who won't expand Medicaid.

  •  At some point it will occur to GOPers... (0+ / 0-)

    ...that this tactic will reduce their voter rolls by definition.

    Being all about the public good, we should probably tell them someday.

  •  my 26 year old son (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cali Scribe

    "pot/eating out/beer money, or insurance, tough call."
    He gets insurance through his employer thankfully, because I'm pretty sure he'd go without otherwise.

    •  And if he goes without and something (0+ / 0-)

      happens to him, YOU get the bill. If YOU don't pay the bill because you can't, he goes into bankruptcy.

      •  I wouldn't get the bill. He's an adult. (0+ / 0-)

        He wouldn't pay it if he didn't have it. And he sure as hell wouldn't ask me to. He's a tad irresponsible but not creepy like that.
        His credit is already shot because of some fine print he didn't read before he signed when he was 18. He doesn't care and doesn't own anything worth more than his 14 year old Camry with one working door handle.
        Comcast still gives him internet, the powerCo gives him juice, Virgin Mobile gives him phone, he's got a grill and a tiny deck on his apt.
        All is good in his land. It's a well populated land amongst young adults with jobs.

  •  Patriots all! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    New Jersey Boy

    "Give me liberty, or give me death!"

    Patrick Henry might have been talking about something else, however.

    The most violent element in society is ignorance.

    by Mr MadAsHell on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:19:23 PM PST

  •  I wouldn't assume the entire 38% do it for spite. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MargaretPOA, Skyye

    The fine is not much.

    Some are healthy and asssume they always will be.  I bet they didn't price health insurance even before ACA.

    Others simply can't afford it even with help. I don't believe the subsidy takes in to account cost of living in different areas.  I have been there, having to juggle basic expenses.  Anything not needed right now-today-had to go.

    •  Yeah, the rock bottom of conservative fringe (0+ / 0-)

      Seems to be between 27% and 33%. I imagine the rest just can't afford it, not living in a blue state with medicaid expansion.

      "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

      by MargaretPOA on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:32:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The 95 bucks penalty minimum, will be (0+ / 0-)

    appreciated to help off set the claims.  So, the 38% will either have to pony up the 95 bucks or 1% for being so cool.  Obama will laugh his ass off all the way to the bank with these dumb ass republicans moolah.  Now that is funny.

  •  Apparently... (0+ / 0-)

    ...this is what "Bette in Spokane" did.

  •  kinda fits with voting GOP, overall, I'd say (0+ / 0-)

    that's like cutting off your nose to spite your face

    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

    by greenbastard on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:22:40 PM PST

  •  People can't afford what they can't afford, Kos. (6+ / 0-)

    That's why voters elected the candidate who swore he'd never support an individual mandate.

    It's kind of weird to call the positions of Candidate Obama from 2008 "The conservative fringe".

    "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

    by JesseCW on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:22:40 PM PST

  •  I tend to agree with (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peregrine kate

    ... several commenters here who question the portion of that 38% who are the Tea Party/Bircher fringe. I suspect 10-12% of them are either (a) people who don't trust doctors and/or "Western medicine"; (b) people of extremely limited means who mistakenly imagine that the costs of insurance are harder to bear than the cost of going without it when truly sick; or (c) as others have suggested, people who are just misinformed/confused. Word of mouth and concerted media education efforts will probably cause the number of refuseniks to dwindle.

    Winning elections is great, but building movements is better.

    by Alvin K on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:23:51 PM PST

  •  And then there're people like... (0+ / 0-)

    Carl Gibson, who afaik (and please correct me if I'm wrong) isn't a winger, just seems dreadfully selfish to me.

    "But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die." - - Cherokee saying

    by brillig on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:26:59 PM PST

  •  I'm a 56% (0+ / 0-)

    I will sign up before Feb 15th.

  •  say what? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Skyye, peregrine kate, AlexDrew

    I think this might be the first time I’ve felt personally insulted by Mr. Kos!

    As it happens, I am in a part-time job that includes health insurance; this is the first time that I have had health insurance in over 15 years. Were I not under these circumstances, I would almost certainly pay the fine.

    1) I have not had to go to a doctor in over 20 years
    2) It would almost certainly cost less money
    3) I don't want recurring bills of any kind
    4) I don't have the time or patience to make sense of how the insurance system even works. As far as I can tell it's a giant pyramid scheme and I want no part of it. (single payah please)

    I understand that this perspective is selfish and dangerous — these are among the reasons I support the ACA. People like me are bad for society.

    If you would to describe me as "stupid" or even "a hypocrite" I would accept that. But not "conservative," please.

    (I know plenty of other liberals/leftists who are in the same boat, by the way. Artists and freelancers and the like who avoid things like insurance and mortgages because we are acutely aware that we're unequipped for this kind of shit.)

  •  If they fall into the "Medicaid gap" ... (0+ / 0-)

    If they're the same people as fall into the Medicaid gap, then they're right - the GOP made sure that they couldn't afford healthcare, and now they can't. And there are millions of such people that so poor that we (nationally) agreed to fund their healthcare for them, because we don't believe in letting people due just because they're poor, but their GOP state governments blocked their healthcare.

    Shame they somehow blame Obama for their lack of healthcare. Let's hope that by the next election they figure out that the GOP is bankrupting them.

  •  I've long said (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Arianna Editrix

    That Obama should go out and strongly argue against self immolation because the Teabag Taliban is so reflexively against anything he is perceived to be for. I'm still not a fan of the ACA though. Any plan that leaves for profit insurance companies in charge of our access to healthcare is not something I can support. I do have health insurance but it hasn't gotten any cheaper, (quite the contrary), since the ACA went into effect. And though it's my insurance company telling me I have to find a new doctor, it wouldn't be an issue with single payer in place.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:30:49 PM PST

  •  Refusing ObamaCare (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pale Jenova

    These 38% probably voted for Romney, who showed that the program works in Mass. and then denied it. If they need medical care, they can go to an Emergency Room. Telomere

  •  Sy and I went to the circus (0+ / 0-)

    Sy got hit with a rolling pin.
    Sy and I got even with that circus,
    bought us a ticket and never went in.

    i just baptized andrew breitbart into the church of islam, planned parenthood, the girl scouts and three teachers unions. - @blainecapatch

    by bobinson on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:32:59 PM PST

  •  Not so. I'm one of those 38%. (4+ / 0-)

    I'm a flaming liberal progressive to the left of Obama on just about every issue. But where I live, the cost of living is so high that, even though I live paycheck to paycheck, I make too much money to qualify for even a partial subsidy for my health insurance.

    I can't afford to pay $320 subsidies with a $3,000 deductible -- actual figures -- which would mean I'm paying $6,500 a year before any of my health expenses are covered. I just don't have that kind of money. Instead, I'm gambling that I'm going to incur less than $6,500 in medical costs this year.

    I'm really glad Obamacare is the law of the land. It's helping millions of people and is a huge step in the right direction. It's just not helping me.

  •  obviously we have 38% of americans who are kinda (0+ / 0-)

    Stupid and as such would cut off their nose to spite their face!
    And it'll be we liberals helping take care of them in their state and federally-funded nursing homes as they age and cannot pay to take care of themselves.

    Republicans only care about themselves, their money, & their power.

    by jdmorg on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:37:39 PM PST

  •  Sorry Kos, love you, but you are 100% wrong. (5+ / 0-)

    Do you know what it's like to be lower middle class?

    Look at the tables in Louisiana for someone just over the line of getting real subsidies.

    Im a single man, 40 years old, and was excited to have health care for the first time in my life, I haven't been to a doctor since college and was thinking ACA was going to be my ticket back into the system. $200 a month with an average of $3,000 deductible is insanity to me., especially when I learned what a deductible actually means.

    The policy is unaffordable garbage to me. That doesn't make me a Tea Partier or an Obama hater, just a liberal who sadly will pay a penalty every year because it hurts me the least.

    So don't mock me. I did the math, it's all I can do.

    •  Take another look (0+ / 0-)

      A bronze plan might be right for you, then.  If the plan you liked only had a $3K deductible that sounds like a silver plan.  I honestly don't recommend bronze to anybody (here, the deductible is $11,750) but please remember that your preventative care - annual physicals - are not subject to a deductible.  At your age you are likely due for some screenings.  I'm not heavy but have high blood pressure anyway.  The meds are cheap, it's the physical I can't afford.  There are two bronze plans available to me with no monthly payment.  

      •  Yes, your preventives aren't subject to deductible (0+ / 0-)

        But what that actually means, in insurance company speak, is that anything that you do pay for a preventative visit (aka co-pay) doesn't COUNT towards satisfaction of your deductible.  It's fucked up because insurance companies are in the mix and we can't fix it until they aren't.

        ~Arianna_Editrix-- I willingly accept Cassandra’s fate, To speak the truth, altho’ believ’d too late

        by Arianna Editrix on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 03:37:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Honest question here...these people who are not (0+ / 0-)

    buying health insurance now... Can they get it later?  Can they get it after they get sick or injured?  I've heard arguments made along those lines, just wondering if that actually holds up.

    •  Open enrollment dates (0+ / 0-)

      It's been extended this year through 3/31.  There are coverage windows.  Right now we are looking at 2 silver plans that, if we enroll now, will start 2/28.  If you miss that deadline per the googler open enrollment starts again 11/15/14 through 1/15/15 so presumably if you enroll before the end of 2014, coverage will start on 1/01 like it did this year.  

  •  the fine is less than the cost of the insurance (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eumaies, AlexDrew, Skyye

    did you actually read about the poll at gallup, or could you not resist just attacking the "conservative fringe" however nonsensically?

    And 38% isn't a fringe.  Far left "progressives" are fringe precisely because they represent a small minority.  Neither party has the support of 38% of the American public - roughly half now register as Independent, and by and large they will vote for one party or the other only because there is no viable third option.

    Your claim that "38% generally approximates the conservative fringe of America" is absolutely absurd.  If it were 38% it wouldn't be "fringe" and the fringe of the GOP or right generally is nowhere near 38%.

    Hating those who disagree with you politically leads to all sorts of ugliness, like incoherent arguments and, oh yeah, the censorship this site is apparently famous for.

    ~~~~ “The real division is not between conservatives and revolutionaries but between authoritarians and libertarians.” ― George Orwell,

    by Libertarian Lawyer on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:41:49 PM PST

    •  It has changed for the worse. (0+ / 0-)

      Used to be able to debate ideas, now its just another echo chamber. So sad.

      New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

      by AlexDrew on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:45:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I know right, when I joined DKos in October... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        ...2013 it used to be way cooler than it is now.

        •  I was here from (0+ / 0-)

          2005 to mid 2008. Moved to London, where I had an all consuming job. No time for politics. If you leave Dkos for a while, you will see how much it has changed.

          New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

          by AlexDrew on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 05:38:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  You really have a chip on your shoulder... (0+ / 0-)

      ...about the alleged 'censorship' here. Glad you made it back.

  •  You've jumped the shark on this one kos. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eumaies, AlexDrew, Freedomfreak

    You have absolutely no evidence to support the premise of this diary. I know at least two members of this 38% and they are not Republicans or Obama haters. Both are people who simply would rather pay the penalty because it's cheaper than the coverage.

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:43:29 PM PST

  •  We used to call this Cutting off Your Nose (0+ / 0-)

    to spite your face.
    Never before has this been made so clear.
     Like the story of the scorpion who just couldn't help himself as he stung his ride across the river.
    "it's my nature."

    So it is in theirs.  Whatever they can do to make the black president look bad, they'll do, even if it means drowning.

    <>Created in the image of god. LOL

  •  A Lot Of Those 38% Lives In North Florida (0+ / 0-)

    where I live.   A lot more live in Mississippi where I was born.  Born to die, but damn well live free in hell.

    "Don't Let Them Catch You With Your Eyes Closed"

    by rssrai on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:52:13 PM PST

  •  No. Just no. (7+ / 2-)

    You know what, Kos? Fuck you.

    Not everyone that won't sign up for the ACA is some ideological moron Tea Bagger. Painting everyone opposed to the ACA with the same ideological brush makes you just as ignorant and uninformed as your opponents.

    No, I didn't cling to GWB until the end. I wanted him gone. Before the end of his first term.

    No, I don't believe Obama was born in Kenya. Or that he's a Socialist. Or a Marxist. Or a Muslim. Because everything he's done has shown he's a corporatist.

    You want to know why I won't buy into Obama's shitty plan? Because its not affordable. It's junk. The "best" I could get is a do nothing "bronze" plan that, for $158 a month, I could have $90 co-pays and a $6000 deductible. And the prices only go up from there. Awesome. Because spending money I don't have for something can't use makes great economic sense. Perhaps to comply I should stop paying my student loans, or maybe not pay my electric or water or gas bills?

    And before I hear someone chime in about subsidies, or that "blah blah my friend got" just stop. I don't care. I don't care that your friend got some great deal, that doesn't help me. I don't want to hear about the subsidies that I don't qualify for. There is nothing in the ACA that stopped providers and pharmaceuticals from price gouging or insurers from selling junk plans that don't do anything. But thanks to wanting "bipartisanship" we now have an unworkable plan that helps a very small number of Americans but the majority of us in the middle get thrown under the bus yet again.

    So thanks. Thanks for being an ideologue. Thanks for making it seem that anyone criticizing Obama's corporatist plan that fails and is overly complex for the very reason it kept private insurers in the loop is some sort of fringe kook.

  •  These disingenuous assholes... (0+ / 0-)

    ...will get and take all the healthcare freebies when they need 'em.
    If there's anything they learned from Ayn Rand is that principles can easily be sacrificed to hypocrisy when you need something.

  •  Is this covered by the ACA? (0+ / 0-)
    the ones sickened by America's creeping communism
    Just wondering.
  •  You said: (6+ / 0-)
    That 38 percent generally approximates the conservative fringe of America, you know, the ones who clung to George W. Bush to the bitter end, the ones who believe Obama was born in Kenya, the ones sickened by America's creeping communism. There are probably a handful in that 38 percent who are choosing to pay the fine for non-ideological reasons. But there are many more who are doing so to spite the president.
    I don't understand how you can made a judgement on the political reasons for the 38% not getting insurance, and to declare a predominate equality between those not planning on getting insurance and declaration and criticism of that group as somehow being the conservative nutcase fringe.

    Maybe those planning not to get insurance are low income individuals in a state not offering expanded Medicaid....likely to be a substantial group of people.

    Maybe they are low information voters who are also very low income and maybe their suffering the effects of all the disinformation out there.

    Maybe a low income parent goes without health insurance in order to insure their child.

    No negative judgement or assumed declaration of political conservatism is warranted for these situations.

  •  To be a bit contrarian, kos (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peregrine kate, Skyye

    I think you've got the psychology wrong on this one.

    It isn't simply to spite the POTUS, the spite/resentment factor is far more elaborate than that.

    It is to live your ideological assertion that a solid safety net is nothing more than a nanny state, and as any piece of children's literature will tell you, there's nothing an unthinking child hates more than being told what to do.  

    It is spite against the entire 20th century notion of "modernity".  Disrespecting the current POTUS is just a pleasant side benefit.

    (Also, there are some people who have severe anxieties about red tape of any kind be it governmental, business or financial, says one such sufferer of said anxieties.  If my job didn't sign me up for health coverage, I'd forego it too, simply because the stress, worry and neuroses of the sign-up and decision process would be too much for me.  That's the reason I still haven't gone to see a medical professional, despite the fact that I have health coverage, I can't navigate the administrative hurdles in order to step into the action of seeing a's a real phobia that hinders me.  If I had to go the Obamacare journey alone, I'd just pay the fine, too).  

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:23:56 PM PST

  •  38% don't want to buy health insurance.. (0+ / 0-)

    That's fine; let em' go bankrupt when they get sick.. And ya' know; the United States could make some money on this rebellious behavior. Raise the fine to $10-50K dollars (depending on income) starting next year and use it to pay off the public debt...

  •  I don't think that's it. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, Skyye

    The folks that elect to pay the fine most certainly include these defiant teabaggers to be sure, but I daresay the majority of this number are the much sought after Young Invincibles, for whom the thought of far off old age, illness or physical trauma are unthinkable, let alone thinking about where they will be partying this weekend.  They see the monthly premium and balk, saying well, it's just cheaper to pay the fine and move on.

    Youth is wasted on the young...

  •  I wonder if those who are in the 38% understand (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    how the penalty for not participating in the ACA works?

    Here is a link:

    The penalties go up each year and if you are a family without insurance you will pay for each child, etc.

    Many seem to think it is "only" $95.  There is more to it than that.

  •  Profoundly ignorant post (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, chimene, Skyye

    As many have already stated, the economics of this don't work out to a cost-less decision for many uninsured people. I love the law, but that doesn't mean its perfect.

    I'm kind of shocked to see kos advance a theory like with this with no actual evidence.  

    When 38% of the public appear to be making an economically ignorant choice, then probably you're calculating the economics wrong.  This is not like believing in evolution or global warming - this is about costs and benefits and if ultimately a large portion of people remain uninsured it will be about math, not politics.

  •  May they rot in debt for their cynicism and hate (0+ / 0-)

    I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

    by pajoly on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:46:40 PM PST

  •  If the 38% want to put their health at risk, (0+ / 0-)

    who am I to object?  But I worry about their kids, and sometimes their spouses.

    "There is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." - Mark Twain

    by rustypatina on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:49:26 PM PST

  •  I don't think all of the 38% (6+ / 0-)

    are doing it to spite Obama, or even protest the new law.  Truth be told, when Massachusetts put into place their healthcare system with the penalties, the first year, I took the penalty.  As a recent law school grad who was still only working as a bartender, for financial reasons, and the fact I was lucky enough to be young and healthy, I too opted for the penalty.  I am not saying this fits most of these people in this poll, but I know my refusal was economic, not political.  I think Obamacare and the Massachusetts system it is based on, are great!!!  But, the truth is, even those who want insurance, can't always afford what the government deems them capable of affording.  Just saying. :)

    •  to follow up on myself (6+ / 0-)

      I looked quickly, the federal government would not consider me, a single person, as living in poverty unless I made less than $11,000 a YEAR.  I live and work in Boston, that is ALMOST my rent for a year in a shared 2 bedroom, just my rent.  Again, the government does not always deem affordable correctly.  I can't judge those who can't afford the ACA, because the fact of the matter is, the government does not have a great idea what is "affordable,"  or maybe we would not have the current levels of inequality in the country.

  •  Kos, I love ya, but... (7+ / 0-)

    This one strikes pretty close to home.  

    Because I make more than the limit for subsidies, I can choose to either get covered for about $1500 a month OR pay an annual penalty of about $800.  Right now, I'm not sure how I can take $18,000 out of our life to cover health care costs.  It would certainly mean trying to find a new home, and since I have no credit and no assets or savings, I'm not quite sure how to manage that.  Plus, layer in that some months I simply don't earn enough to cover it since my income varies.

    I suspect your basic point is right that there are those who are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.  But I'm cutting off my nose because I'm concerned I'll have to choose between rent, food, taxes, etc., on the one hand and the health care premium on the other.

    Once you stop having health insurance, you kind of get used to it.  And the idea of having to enter into some kind of commitment for $1500 a month is scary given the lack of income security.

    For what it's worth, it's this idea of security that lies at the heart of our current distress. The ruling class has made it pretty clear that we don't have any...which makes doing anything other than just getting through the day tough.

  •  To spite Obama? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Can't imagine why anyone would do that.

    Maybe some of them are like my daughter who's uninsured because we can't figure out any way to get her onto our insurance plan, and, so far, neither can anybody we've talked to at the exchange.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:04:07 PM PST

  •  uninsured (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    As long as my family & friends are insured I don't care
    about the dimwits who refuse insurance. -g-


  •  While it would be foolish to go around uninsured, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I don't think that many of the 38% are ideologues. Probably a lot are young, healthy adults who believe they are invulnerable and whose incomes are too high to qualify for the subsidies. A $95 penalty may seem attractive under those circumstances. Hopefully they'll change their minds as the penalties ramp up.

  •  my question (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    where does the penalty money go?

    does it go to general fund?
    does it go to help fund ACA ?

    In NY State - if you have a car but do not have auto insurance
    you are put into a state run insurance pool and sent a bill
    the insurance is bar minimum car insurance but  at least it is some type of insurance

    it seems to me that this money should be used to put people should be put into a catastrophic healthcare insurance pool
    this way - if something horrible happens to these uninsured
    they will have some basic healthcare

    "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill

    by smartone on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:46:51 PM PST

  •  I know one who is doing it for economic (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Freedomfreak, raincrow, Skyye

    reasons and none who aren't, just for the record.

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

    by enhydra lutris on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:48:40 PM PST

    •  Flu Epidemic is turning some aged between 25-60 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      to be believers in Obamacare in this area. Hubby's Educational Aide and her Hubby are quickly seeking insurance after their bout with hospitalization from the flu --- They were the macho "no Free Flu shots for us" even thought the school system paid for shots.  There are no shortage of people working with these fools telling them,"I told you so!"

      •  Some people simply cannot afford it, such as (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kombema, raincrow, Skyye

        he guy I know. He can sacrifice everythig he worked for his whole life by spending over 7K on insurance, which will save him pretty much de nada unless he has a catastrophic accident or illness, or roll the dice and go ahead and make his house payments, buy decent food and his medications and stuff like that.  He retired early on a tight budget, and until he gets old enough for SSI to kick in he figures his survival chances are better without.

        He's not being macho, but he has a better chance of staying healthy and affording food and meds for the next few years if he doesn't spend that extra 7K.  I suspect that a lot of others in similar circumstances are struggling with the same computations and decisions.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

        by enhydra lutris on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 06:49:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I hate to burst your bubble, (0+ / 0-)

    but I was going to pay a fine rather than be forced to buy insurance-that is how much I disliked the law.  Luckily, I am now covered by my employer.

    And I am liberal.

    However, I can concede that I probably would have looked into the pricing had I needed to.

    The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

    by dfarrah on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:39:52 PM PST

  •  Its pretty much what I expected (0+ / 0-)

    Immaterial to the overall results.  Hey if they want to pay out of pocket including fine then go for it.  They are free to make that choice.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Riane Eisler

    by noofsh on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:54:13 PM PST

  •  I have a distant winger brother in law (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, Skyye

    who hates insurance and thinks that no one should have any.  On that we agree.  I believe in single payer.  He's just a rich asshole who can pay out-of-pocket and screw everyone else.

    He'll pay the penalty and bitch loud and long.  Very glad I don't ever see him.

    Can you call yourself a real liberal if you aren't reading driftglass?

    by CJB on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:57:42 PM PST

    •  And, yes, more to the point, (0+ / 0-)

      I think that people will die for their ideology.  Ridiculously so.  I feel bad for those who want to get insurance but don't because of the "stigma" it would put on them.  Bet there are more than a few of those.

      Can you call yourself a real liberal if you aren't reading driftglass?

      by CJB on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:59:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Pure speculation (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    This is pure speculation and conjecture.

    I mean there probably are some people who not signing to spite Obama what evidence do we for that?

    I live in Indiana and I can tell you there was a poll that showed about 1/3 of Hoosiers believed one of the following:

    Obamacare had been repealed
    Obamacare had been overturned by the SCOTUS
    Obamacare was illegal in Indiana
    Obamacare was not available in Indiana
    There was no Indiana website for Obamacare so they thought it was not available to them which is true but they could go to the federal website.

    I think you need to take these factors into consideration.

  •  Is it really that comforting (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    to say that 38% of Americans are nuts rather than acknowledge the fact that Democrats would not could not pass a good bill when they had a veto-proof majority in the Senate?

    Tyrion Lannister: "It's not easy being drunk all the time. Everyone would do it if it were easy."

    by psychodrew on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 06:28:27 PM PST

  •  38% is not a fringe... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    psychodrew, QuelleC

    it's a pretty big number.  What is even more ridiculous though is that you don't even consider that some of these people can't afford it.

    Must be quite comfy in that gilded bubble you live in.  I will be paying the fine and not out of spite.

  •  To Spite the President ? (0+ / 0-)

    Now its the time with the affordable health care law in place where people can sign up for coverage if they wish or can pay a fine instead... Its time to put a NAIL in the COFFIN with legislative action that permits hospitals to turn away the uninsured.

    Have a special  ER room staffed with a Nurse and a billing clerk.  If they have no insurance... give them two aspirin and tell them to check with their doctor tomorrow.

    We don't need to provide health care to those who don't want to provide coverage for themselves.   IN many cases we would provide it free ... but if they don't want it - they don't want or need Medical intervention either.

  •  Met with a navigator (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, Skyye, Arianna Editrix

    Even with five kids and a SNAP beneficiary I qualify for no subsidies and can't afford even the worst Obamacare plan ($6000 per family member deductible).  Ironically I voted for him specifically for health care.  I can afford the fine, not the insurance.  I am sick and upset about it.

    •  Wow, that bites; I am so sorry. (0+ / 0-)

      This is terrible. May I ask what state you live in (besides dread and panic)?

      Fight them to the end, until the children of the poor eat better than the dogs of the rich.

      by raincrow on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 08:01:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What about the limit on out-of-pocket expenses? (0+ / 0-)

      Isn't the limit for a family $12,700 per year? From a CNN article:

      Regardless of what plan you chose, individuals won't have to pay more than $6,350 and families $12,700 out-of-pocket each year.

      The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right. -- Judge Learned Hand, May 21, 1944

      by ybruti on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 09:29:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Stupidity - the deadliest pre-existing condition (0+ / 0-)

    Doesn't seem to be a cure yet, either - although turning off FOX helps.

    "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

    by xaxnar on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 07:59:38 PM PST

  •  Oh well! (0+ / 0-)

    Like Ron White says "You can't fix stupid!"

  •  how do you find an honest advisor, one who isn't (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    just going to help the insurance co. ruin you?

    what if you make too much money for subsidies, but not really enough to pay 25 or 30% of your (retirement) income for the insurance that you don't know how to pick out anyway?

    what if you're not a cookie-cutter family, how do you find out how to make the program-hunt manageable? does ANYBODY know how this mess really works?

    right, families won't have to pay more than 12,700 out-of-pocket a year? what if your income is 48K? that DOES make 12k into 25%! what are you supposed to heat and eat with for a third of the year? (we do NOT live luxuriously!)

    "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

    by chimene on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 10:41:44 PM PST

    •  Oh yeah? it's also that it's PRIVATE SECTOR, (0+ / 0-)

      CORPORATE INSURANCE that we're being forced to buy into! Who trusts the Insurance Companies? They are completely ONLY in it for their own benefit!

      If I was paying my share of "Medicare for all" I wouldn't have this terror of being bankrupted somehow by a wrong guess at which of 70 thousand policies I should pick!

      "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

      by chimene on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 10:55:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Your medical bankruptcy will also blight (0+ / 0-)

    the lives of your children. No college, perhaps.  But screw them because Obama.

  •  Or how bout this... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pale Jenova

    From an article about Republicans deciding whether or not to sign up for Obamacare:

    Cheryl Mooney would qualify for a subsidy that would reduce the price of a policy for herself and her husband to $150 per month from about $1,300.

    But the 55-year-old, who lives in North Carolina and is "against Obamacare absolutely," said she might not buy it. "Even with that, I'm not happy," Mooney said.

    Who does she think she's hurting?  Obama?  Ridiculous.

    Filibuster delenda est.

    by Lee on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 03:51:26 AM PST

    •  "The dumbassery is strong in this one" (0+ / 0-)


      And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

      by Pale Jenova on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 07:09:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Look (0+ / 0-)

    most people want to horde their money for the purpose of only spending it on immediate gratification. Taking on health insurance, or any kind of insurance, or paying taxes, or setting aside in an IRA, or investing in the stock market, or paying parking tickets or property assessments - all these things delay gratification or <> don't result in gratification at all.

    So while it's possible that people may attempt to justify their spending habits by cloaking them within a political/racist ideological imperative, the truth is just that they lack emotional maturity to delay gratification and therefore resent spending their money on anything that doesn't either improve their self image, satisfy their hunger or thirst, or give them an orgasm. Obama is just a convenient hobby horse, this sector of the population will basically always act like this.

  •  I would probably be one of the opt-outs (0+ / 0-)

    if I didn't get insurance through work.  It doesn't necessarily have to be all conservatives or "Obama haters" who can't (or won't) get insurance, even with the subsidies.  

    I went without insurance for over 5 years in my early 20's, and didn't really mind.  I didn't even have money for cable, much less health insurance.  

    I think that the 38% might also include a lot of 20-30 year-olds who just don't feel they need it.  Not that they don't need it, don't get me wrong, I'm the first person to say that a big reason insurance is so pricey is people going to the ER without any way to pay for it (or any other options).

    But to a lot of people that small fine once a year is more "doable" than a monthly payment all year long.

    It will get better, they will join in, even if it takes raising that fine over their expected premiums.  Which if I'm not mistaken is part of the law, eventually...

  •  Not buying healthcare hurts you not the President (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mystic Michael

    How childish. Just like Republicans. They think by refusing to pass any legislation and filibuster 470 efforts to vote on legislation hurts the President. No it doesn't affect him at all. They don't get that it hurts the People and they are clueless that is why their poll numbers are at 7%.

    If you don't buy healthcare, you are spiting yourself. When you get sick, you will go bankrupt, you will pay for all your medical costs and you will be on your own. President Obama will be just fine as the more People learn about the benefits of the ACA - the higher the poll numbers on it go up. People are signing up it at faster rates than ever expected. It works. It is saving lives.

    Must be a Republican since you keep electing Republicans who destroy the very programs you depend on.

  •  I had a response to this... (0+ / 0-)

    ...but it got so big it turned into a diary.

    With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied - chains us all, irrevocably.

    by Andrew M on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 09:36:44 AM PST

  •  No insurance = increase death rate = self-solving (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    d web

    The 38% will decrease as they die early leaving those whose can adapt to the new environment.

    I am really sooooo done with caring about stupid people.

    Ignore reality. Create your own.

    by sworddance on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 10:13:09 AM PST

  •  It's a variant of natural selection... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    d web that rids the gene pool of those with an irrational right-wing disposition.

    All that is necessary for the triumph of the Right is that progressives do nothing.

    by Mystic Michael on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 11:28:31 AM PST

  •  They may say it (0+ / 0-)

    to a pollster, but when it comes down to the choice to either stand tall against creeping socialism or get their kids and themselves insured with a nice subsidy, they won't hesitate. After all, how many elderly teabaggers refuse Medicare, or send back their SS checks? Conservatives never have a problem with government handouts when it's to them...

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 11:57:02 AM PST

  •  Do you have children? (0+ / 0-)

    And you still refuse?  You say you can't afford it, you can't not afford having the insurance.  If you are that poor, then the subsidies or Medicare is there.
    Have kids?  You are not fit to be parents and your kids should be taken from you.

  •  Gives new meaning.... (0+ / 0-)

    This gives new meaning to cutting your nose off to spite your face. The Republicans said they would fight everything the President wanted BEFORE he ever stepped foot into the White House and they have. They don't care about the people.

  •  I wondered who it was (0+ / 0-)

    who didn't want insurance even if they could afford it. I could never seem to find anyone, just a bunch of people worried about the horrible Obama forcing someone to buy insurance but never them, maybe someone they knew or a friend of their cousin.

    But now we know its just those crazy irrational Obama haters. I applaud them. If you hate Obama the best thing you can do for our country is go without health insurance and....go one stop further, teach Obama a lesson and die of an untreated illness. That'll teach him...

  •  And when these losers DO get sick, (0+ / 0-)

    the rest of us will end up paying for their anarchistic irresponsibility.

    •  This is the wrong use (0+ / 0-)

      of the term anarchism. Associating the working people who organized for the eight hour work day, and died for it, with being losers is not something we should ever see on a blog that supports worker's rights.

      "The political arena leaves one no alternative, one must either be a dunce or a rogue." Emma Goldman, Anarchism and Other Essays

      by ZhenRen on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 03:37:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Re: the 38% (0+ / 0-)

    Natural selection at work; Hooray for chlorine in the gene pool!

    Of course it saddens me, but only that they might live long enough to spike insurance premiums for the rest of us. They are choosing to live their fantasy life of freedom, so they can damn well take the consequences, something which is perfectly compatible with their libertarian philosophy. In short, if you talk the talk, then walk the walk.

  •  Trying for high standards (0+ / 0-)
    There are probably a handful in that 38 percent who are choosing to pay the fine for non-ideological reasons. But there are many more who are doing so to spite the president.
    Does anyone have a breakdown of the reasons why those people are likely to take the penalty?  Per the Gallup article itself:
    The percentage planning to get insurance is down from 60% of the then-uninsured pool in December. This decline may be attributable as much to the shrinking uninsured population as to changes in uninsured Americans' intentions for obtaining insurance. In other words, fewer Americans are now uninsured, and those who remain uninsured as time goes on are least motivated to get insurance.

    The ground for taking ignorance to be restrictive of freedom is that it causes people to make choices which they would not have made if they had seen what the realization of their choices involved. A.J. Ayer, Sir. "The Concept of Freedom "

    by Memory Corrupted on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 12:22:17 PM PST

  •  Even if health ins is cheaper than pre-ACA.... (0+ / 0-)

    it's still too expensive for many of us. If you are in good health (I am in my 50s and speaking for myself and my sig other) and poorly-paid (less than $18/hr), as we both are, it just makes no sense. We have nothing to lose in terms of possessions, no houses or whatever, and the subsidies are not high enough for those of us in the middle.  Bottom line, because we both have a substantial car payment -- in my case, inherited from my husband when I was widowed; in his case, purchased three years ago when his industry was booming and he was more flush -- the extra $250+ dollars a month (which is what we would each pay after subsidies) cannot be squeezed out no matter how much we wish it could. And that is with us living in my old travel trailer cause we can't even afford normal rent.

    Then, add to that the fact that any normal use we try to make of it (short of massive heart attacks or strokes) primarily must be paid out of pocket until we reach the deductible -- which we will never do because we are both extremely healthy, having worked at it consciously our whole lives --  it is a complete waste of $250+ a month for us -- which again, we do not have. We live hand to mouth and do nothing at all for entertainment or anything else -- utilities and gas for the two vehicles eats up everything that doesn't go to food, basically.

    Essentially, as healthy older folks, we are being punished by premiums that are assessed based on the poor health habits of our peers.

    And believe me, I fought hard for Obamacare -- I am very activistic -- but single payer was really my dream and continues to be. And while I understand and agree that the ACA is an improvement over the old system, it mainly helps people who really need a lot of health care, and it is far from ideal. I don't think we Dems do ourselves any favors by defending this flawed system to the death. Let's be open and honest about it, commend it for its benefits and fight for the many, many improvements it requires to be helpful to so many of us who have no choice but to pay the fine.

  •  Request for Data (0+ / 0-)

    Has anyone taken a poll that (a) asks for the reasons and (b) correlates the decision with political factors?

  •  Self Employed in Florida (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I was and am a huge supporter of the ACA. I have spent a lot of time explaining and converting stinker thinkers because they didn't understand it. The uninsured were pleasantly surprised when checked on their own insurance thru their state or the ACA site.

    I am on the cusp of not having insurance after march 31st. Our Gov Dick Scott (who ran the biggest medicare fraud in the us but his statements are sealed) will not extend medicaid.

    I have to prove that I will make the minimum at least in order to be eligible for ACA. I was pretty much bed ridden with the flu in January so my income is laughable. (For the record, did not previously get a flu shot nor did I go to a Dr even though very sick). I now have the month of February to make $ to show might be eligible. I have to submit info for a review.

    If my submissions are not adequate to show that I am not wealthy, then I will probably go without insurance as will be cheaper to pay the fine.

    That is in line with the Republican philosophy. "If poor people are sick, they should just die. It is cheaper for them and we don't have to support them in illness."

  •  It isn't quite that simple. (0+ / 0-)

    The complexity is mind-boggling. The information is not easily available. It's still too expensive. I did sign up for a Silver Plan, but as I have been making a few hundred dollars over 400% of poverty, I have to claim that I will be making less. It took months to get the information I needed to make a decision, weeks to sign up, weeks to get an invoice, weeks to get an insurance card, and I still don't have details of my plan. As I'm 58, coverage is not cheap, even with a subsidy. Yesterday I got a letter saying I'm only eligible for three months unless I send in "one of the proofs listed above right away." However, there is no information "above" of what those proofs are. Instead, I read that I have to go back to the Covered CA site, where I have dwelled many hours already, and am skeptical that I can get the info I need there. And what "proof" could there be, since the income at issue is for 2014, and that is yet to be determined as I'm self-employed and can work or not workas many hours as I want as long as there are clients to fill the hours? It's certainly easier for me to make a few hundred dollars less per year than $6600 more so I could afford the Bronze Plan without a subsidy. For the first time in my life I'm going to have to be careful to make less money rather than more. I doubt this is going to be an all-around life enhancing event in order to be able to afford health insurance. Whiile I can keep my health insurance costs lower, I have yet to see what that will do to the quality of the rest of my life. I'm living in a narrow alley of the government's making. I can move very little to the right (and still pay the bills) or left (and triple my cost for health insurance), and I have to monitor every move I make and try to anticipate every expense, tax deduction, level of income. I've never been obsessed about how much money I make. I pay the bills and once in a while do some home repair. Any surplus I have goes into making a beautiful garden. If I don't have the money, I can't spend it. But now I have to make sure I don't make $1 over 400% of poverty or I'll owe an additional $5400 for the Silver Plan.  That's quite a bundle of uncertainty hanging over my head. So I have to save for that eventuality. But what if I've made too much money and then find that I have to lay off in November and December? What does that do to my ability to pay for groceriesl and to my client's continuing mental health needs? Life is all about balance, and it's just gotten a lot harder for me to find it.

    So that's my situation. This morning I got a call from a client who wonders if she should stop coming to her every three-weeks psychotherapy appt until she gets her Covered CA insurance card. I googled Bronze Plan because the word going around is nothing is covered (except preventative) until you pay $5000 deductible. So does it really make any difference? Is she going to get any coverage for mental health before she pays $5000 out of pocket? I don't know. Apparently not all Bronze Plans are alike. When will I know? After I submit the bill and get the Explanation Of Benefits rom the insurance company. The problem there is that when insurance companies decide not to pay, weeks and sometimes months go by before I get that information. Then the client is generally unable to pay and basically I've given away several hundreds of dollars worth of services that I will never collect on. So I could tell people to wait until I check their benefits, but then I spend 20-60 minutes per new client gtting information about what insurance coverage they have--and that's my time spent before I even have a chance to get paid a nickel. I'd either be working 12-hour days or I'd never have time to actually see paying clients.

    I am a single women, with a single income stream, and zero employees. I clean the office, copy the documents, answer the phone, do the billing and bookkeeping, investigate payment problems, do the collections, see clients full time and so far barely make over 400% of poverty with my master's degree and my full psychotherapy private practice as an MFT in Central Coast California.  I don't need more bullshit from insurance companies. I don't need to spend time projecting income for the feds--I already pay my quarterlies based on last year's taxes. don't need more things to keep track of and more challenges to get information that allows me to know what's covered in my  insurance and in my clients' health insurance.

    I have plenty of desire to spite Obama, but it isn't because of the ACA. (It's because of corporatism, the TPP being the last straw for me.) The ACA is a tiny step forward for those who did not have insurance and who don't have Republican governors to obstruct its implementation. There is the problem of reams of material being required to prove you "deserve" to afford health insurance. And the problem of accessing the websitesand reading through confusing, illiterate letters like the one quoted above. Four years to prepare for rollout of this phase of the ACA, and this is what we get? Shameful!!!!!


    Maybe we will get lucky and that 38% will get sick and die and then all of our problems will be solved.

  •  *** (0+ / 0-)

    I work with a guy who refers to Obama as our "token" president. He also refers to the rebel flag as a symbol of "good ol' southern values". His live-in GF is an insurance agent. They have decided that it is cheaper for them to pay cash for Dr visits & the penalty than to get insurance.

    Oh, they also have 2 kids under the age of 12.

    None of them will have insurance until the penalty dramatically increases.

    He says, "We are all really healthy & get good prices by paying cash so it doesn't make sense to get insurance."


  •  not just conservatives (0+ / 0-)

    Careful thinking that it is only conservatives that are refusing to use ACA. I live in an area with many low income liberals, who are telling me that they will not sign up for health insurance, because they do not want to be part of any government system, don't like the medical establishment and only use alternative medicine, or feel it is an invasion of their privacy and choice.

  •  Send them your own bill (0+ / 0-)

    Speaking as someone who has been insured all his life wouldn't think of going without health insurance I have an idea to combat those who wouldn't get covered out of spite or twisted ideology. If you know someone who isn't insured and is doing so because of the above mentioned reason and your premium goes up but not due to any changes in your personal health, send said person a bill for the increase with a note stating why. Of course they won't pay it but keep sending the bill repeatedly over a protracted period of time anyway. Include statistics on what it cost those who are insured to cover those who aren't every time they use the ER as Bush told us all to do.  Maybe eventually you will get the point across.

  •  re: pay fine rather than get insurance (0+ / 0-)

    Spite is not the reason. A great many of us who are uninsured are students, the unemployed or the working poor or those on SS disability who don't get medicare - we make too much to qualify for free or low cost insurance like Medicaid (or the state has a severely low threshold or no program) and make too little to pay for insurance policies every month that have huge deductibles etc. so we have to pay cash for everything anyway. A $95 Fed tax/fine is the only thing we can't avoid. Since we are paying cash for everything else we simply can't afford to also pay hundreds of dollars a month to insurance companies who likely won't cover anything anyway. We get sick and suffer or die rather than be bankrupt or indebted for the rest of our foreseeable lives to some hospital or health care company. To some of us a $5000 deductible plus $600 a month or more to an insurance before co-pays etc. might as well be 5 million. It's enough to be placed in a perpetual debtor position because we foolishly wanted an education.  

  •  Excellent!! (0+ / 0-)

    Darwinism at work!
    ALL hail Darwin! :)


    I hope that all the ignorant people that HATE the President of the USA and refuse sign up for healthcare, get a curable cancer.  Maybe next time you will not let bigotry overrule your thinking.

  •  Hard to trust proven scoundrels (0+ / 0-)

    Millions of Americans have suffered from lacking insurance, and many have also been devastated by discovering too late they had plans designed to fleece them.
    It's enough to make people lose their sense of self worth, as well as faith in promises of care that gives continued
    power to an industry with blood on its hands.

  •  no insurance to spite Obama (0+ / 0-)

    while I agree that many people will pay the fine and go without insurance to make a point but many of us simply cannot afford insurance period. Some of us live in states that haven't extended Medicaid, some of us are unemployed and many of us are underemployed. So this is not simply and us vs them situation.

    •  Thank you for this comment, Evy. When one says (0+ / 0-)

      that some states haven't extended Medicaid, it sounds as if things just turned out like that. But it is no accident that those states haven't extended it. It is no accident that they were given the choice to NOT extend it, as the ruling that enabled that was led by Republicans on the Supreme Court. They're happy because people are perceiving this as something that just happens, not as something they did and are doing. It is us vs them, alright, and what is most under appreciated is the degree to which this entire NATION needs for them to lose, politically. Will you help us make that happen?

      Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Knowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.

      "The opposite of war isn't peace, it's CREATION." _ Jonathan Larson, RENT -9.62, -9.13

      by BeninSC on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 10:04:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't worry if they die... (0+ / 0-)

    ...It'll just increase the nationwide support for the ACA.

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