Skip to main content

Gun with trigger at center of image.
I pledge allegiance to my gun, and to the confederacy for which it stands...
Dear Missouri state Sen. Brian Nieves, sponsor of this bill: Secede already. Go. Get out. Get out, and take as many of your gun-obsessed nullification fetishists with you as you can fit in your trunk.
The Missouri Senate has given first-round approval to legislation to nullify federal gun-control laws.

The language in this year's Senate version of the Second Amendment Preservation Act has been toned down a bit.  It would still nullify federal gun restrictions in Missouri, and it would charge federal officers who try to enforce those restrictions with a misdemeanor punishable by a $1,000 fine and up to a year in jail.

So the premise, as we explained before, is that federal agents caught enforcing a gun law that Brian Nieves doesn't like (or, apparently, any federal gun law, since sponsors hope to dodge the obvious unconstitutionality of a "nullification" bill (and yes, Nieves himself calls it that) by not actually specifying which gun laws, fees, and policies they are nullifying, leaving it to the imagination of whoever's facing federal agents that day). The bill is also a three ring circus of other fetishist obsessions, lowering the conceal-carry age, allowing open carry even in state municipalities that have banned it, and permitting teachers to carry guns in schools because the only lesson we've learned from all the children murdered in schools over the past few years is that we ought to have more guns around.

I'm serious about this secession thing. A nullification bill is just secession done piecemeal, after all, and if your guns are more important to you than your nation your nation is better off without you. It can be the last great American migration; all we need is somewhere for Brian and the others to go.

Originally posted to Hunter on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:37 AM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA, Firearms Law and Policy, Repeal or Amend the Second Amendment (RASA), Kansas & Missouri Kossacks, and Daily Kos.

Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags


More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  you can have my 9th/10th Amendment when you (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, mungley, CenPhx, Matt Z, WakeUpNeo

    pry it from my cold ink-stained fingers

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:41:16 AM PST

    •  Or the sixth article of the constitution (4+ / 0-)
      This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

      Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

      by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 05:06:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd like to see the news video when (0+ / 0-)

        they try to ENFORCE that law!  One ATF agent arrests a gun nut with a stash of machine guns; local deputy sheriff arrests the ATF agent; federal SWAT team arrives at jail in attempt to enforce federal court order to release him; local jail officers resist; shootout between feds and local deputies; governor calls up MO National Guard; President federalized Guard and gives them contrary orders; Guard members each have to decide where their loyalty lies; we know the feds will win in the end, but at the cost of state voters' loyalties.

        Will neighboring red states join forces with Missouri in a new Confederacy?  Will their troops be able to capture federal armories and bases, with NUCLEAR weapons?  Do the red states REALLY want to go through that AGAIN?

  •  I guess Colorado and Washington can leave too huh? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, mungley, Shifty18

    Secession is a mighty dangerous word to be throwing around.

    Rivers are horses and kayaks are their saddles

    by River Rover on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:42:51 AM PST

  •  Poetic justice would be (8+ / 0-)
    it would charge federal officers who try to enforce those restrictions with a misdemeanor punishable by a $1,000 fine and up to a year in jail.
    to fine state legislators who vote for nullification schemes to face a $1000 fine and a year in jail.  

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:47:56 AM PST

    •  Naw, Just bill them for the costs incurred by (6+ / 0-)

      the state when this inevitably is challenged in federal court.  The lawmakers - everyone who votes "yes".  Double the charges if they vote "yes" in committee as well as for the final bill.

      •  OH, you dreamer, you. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        You know as well as I that no legislator would ever pass a law allowing one of his or her status to be fined or penalized for passing a law subsequently found to be illegal and unenforceable, any more than the House Rs had personally to pay for their defense of Prop 8. That sort of free- of- risk decision making is part of the deal for legislators.  And if the law is not on the books at the time the legislators do it, no subsequent law can penalize them for it, under the bad on ex post facto legislation.

  •  I hope the feds will send thousands of feds (5+ / 0-)

    into that state if this law passes .
    Clog the courts , clog the jails .

    "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

    by indycam on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:52:49 AM PST

  •  Will be vetoed again by Dem (15+ / 0-)

    Governor Nixon.  Also unconstitutional and would be struck down immediately if they overturned veto.  

    This is just political porn for the dumb shits (mostly outstate) stroking their guns.  

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:53:38 AM PST

  •  PPV rights: MO Oath Keepers vs. National Guard /nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, Glen The Plumber

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:57:09 AM PST

  •  Well, the funny thing (12+ / 0-)

    would be to have the President mobilize the Missouri National Guard for the sole purpose of protecting federal agents.  And if anyone in the National Guard goes all rogue Rambo, then send in the National Guard from sane states.

    In the end -- this is going nowhere.  It is just an idle use of legislative hours to avoid actually helping constituents get jobs, affordable housing, healthy food, fair wages, birth control, gayer than springtime marriages, etc.

    " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:58:01 AM PST

    •  Gayer than springime and queerer than (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:


      Pope Francis: the Thumb of Christ in the eyes of the Pharisees.

      by commonmass on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:08:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "In the end -- this is going nowhere." I hope (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gchaucer2, Greenfinches

      you're right, but in the long run, I fear you're wrong.  Once federal law is in any instance is allowed to be nullified a can of very unpredictable worms are unleashed.  I agree with ending the prohibition of pot.  I agree with what Colorado and Washington have done - but I also believe that, for better or worse the federal government is in danger of losing something that it will never get back: status as the supreme law of the land.

      Rivers are horses and kayaks are their saddles

      by River Rover on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:15:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm sorry, but... (10+ / 0-)

    You don't just arrest a federal agent doing their job without running into serious repercussions.

    They can be as Tea Party Ignorant as they want, but it won't end well for them.

    •  OK, but where and how do you want a standoff? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber, ht dave

      This is a dangerous game of chicken, literally.

      It would be better to pick the case carefully, push the point enough to get a soft arrest and challenge the law in a very boring lawsuit. No excessive force, no Big Threats, no unnecessary heroes ... on either side of this misbegotten act of defiance.

      2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

      by TRPChicago on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 02:20:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Its a dangerous game, no doubt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Glen The Plumber

        But then again, so is secession. Hopefully you are right and a court throws this law out before it gets anywhere.

        •  And legislators of the "Show Me" state, I think... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          ... would have very little tolerance for civil disobedience of one of their laws!

          (Actually, I think this nullification and secession stuff is childish as can be. Serious, but childish. In that vein, the less attention adults give to the foot stompers, the better.)

          2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

          by TRPChicago on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 06:49:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  So, to enforce the constitution they want to null (6+ / 0-)

    -ify the constitution?

    If Federal authority can be overruled, then there is no Federal law, including the second amendment.

    Welcome to (safety) catch 22, MO!

    I ain't often right, but I've never been wrong. Seldom turns out the way it does in this song.

    by mungley on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:04:41 AM PST

  •  black metal madness... (4+ / 0-)

    should be included in the DSM.

    We are not broke, we are being robbed. ~Shop Kos Katalogue~

    by Glen The Plumber on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:10:26 AM PST

  •  John C. Calhoun lives! (4+ / 0-)

    With the Decision Points Theater, the George W. Bush Presidential Library becomes the very first Presidential Library to feature a Fiction Section.

    by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:26:46 AM PST

  •  Gun rights as vestige of Civil War (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    i saw an old tree today

    I've often wondered why certain groups get so emotional about their attachment to their guns and their "gun rights", as if the 2nd Amendment trumps all other rights or is the only guarantor of all other rights.  I am not opposed to gun ownership, myself, and support and allow hunting on my property, and enjoy target shooting.  But I wouldn't call myself a "gun absolutist" by any means.  

    Recently, I watched some meaningless program on the top 10 outlaws of the west on the history channel, and paid little attention until they claimed this

    "the Civil War caused the greatest production of firearms in the history of the US, and after the end of the war, more individual firearms were left in the hands of civilians than ever"
    I don't know if that is true or not, but it seems plausible.  It also makes the connection between individual gun ownership as a "bulwark against tyranny" when placed within the context of defeated insurrectionists Confederates against a victorious Federal government as more emotionally resonant to the modern day claims than the Yankee civilian farmers of western Mass taking arms in Shay's Rebellion against Boston. (We still hate Boston.) It also may explain some of there "Stand Your Ground" laws heightened emotional popularity with "fearful" white (or perceived white) people to shoot unarmed young black men for the crime of being black.  The other reason is that this area (NE) is filled with old buildings called "Armories" which is where guns of a government defeating nature were stored, not arsenals in private homes (which is why the Springfield Armory was a target of Shays, and which storage I suspect was consistent with the actual Founding Fathers understanding of the 2nd Amendment and gun rights and a well-regulated militia).

    Dunno.  Just a thought.

    "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

    by Uncle Moji on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:29:28 AM PST

  •  In a related development (3+ / 0-)

    The city council of Jackass, Mississippi voted unanimously to outlaw gravity, declare evolution a satanic hoax and deport Obama to his native Kenya.

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 12:05:51 PM PST

  •  They are bored. The want a confrontation. For (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CenPhx, Glen The Plumber

    five years they have hunkered down.

    Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

    by 88kathy on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 12:12:34 PM PST

  •  I'm afraid we're headed for a deadly conclusion. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Glen The Plumber, JayFromPA

    The nation is slowly dividing. Where we shop, where we eat, where we get our news. If it continues, everyone will be forced to choose a side. And I don't see anything to stop the current trends.

    Our government and traditional institutions have collapsed. Greed and exploitation rule the day.

    It's time we move with our feet. If I could afford it, I'd have left Tennessee for Washington a year ago. Saving for the big day.

    What is so unnerving about the candidacy of Sarah Palin is the degree to which she represents—and her supporters celebrate—the joyful marriage of confidence and ignorance. SAM HARRIS

    by Cpqemp on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 12:13:34 PM PST

    •  It's not just two sides. (0+ / 0-)

      It's really a case of those with the money and power poking everyone else and saying "Hey let's you and him fight".

      |   Wealthy   |
      |   D  |   R  |
      |   e  |   e  |
      |   m  |   p  |
      |   o  |   u  |
      |   c  |   b  |
      |   r  |   l  |
      |   a  |   i  |
      |   t  |   c  |
      |   s  |   a  |
      |      |   n  |
      |      |   s  |

      That's why I think a conflagration may be inevitable. Because most Dems and most Repubs are completely blind to how both 'sides' are being manipulated into anger at a false target.

  •  stop with the secession talk already (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TKO333, i saw an old tree today

    stop long enough to think about the fact that their are American citizens in those states, especially little girls, who absolutely shall not be denied their citizenship because of violence obsessed wingnuts. No. Absolutely not.

    The wingnuts do not get to have their way, no matter how much they escalate their bullshit. No.

    Not to mention the fact that no state gets to leave the union with anything the union owns in common - like the interstate, or Federal property, or national parks, or national guard equipment, or federally funded schools. No, if we paid for it in common, traitors most certainly would not get to take it and claim it as their's.

    They would have to settle with all the rest of us for the value of all commonly owned national property or assets - and no Republican run state can afford that. So, again, NO.

    They do not get to have their way just because they don't stop throwing tantrums.

    The wingnuts can leave though. I welcome them all to go to one of the countries already run the way they want America run. Iraq is calling. So is Somalia. Those are run the GOP way - let them go there.

    •  nullification often leads to talk of secession (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber

      I guess, so they started it -- these are all contemporary


      another link



      that's it for me

    •  The 'pay up' argument won't get traction. (0+ / 0-)

      Because of the taxes paid. I can already imagine texas, for example, totaling up federal taxes paid and then lumping on all the revenue they collect from their toll roads and so on, to make the argument that they are already paid up.

      A more effective argument would be to point out to any state that they would have to deal with an international border between them and a number of resources that aren't native to their region. Like how missouri isn't going to be pumping enough of its own native oil to keep their tractors going, nor will it be doing much trade with anyone other then the USA because that mississippi river isn't going to be able to support it. Not to mention anyone who wants to go see the super bowl would need a passport and an entry visa from the USA State Department.

    •  thank you. (0+ / 0-)

      Much as we would like to shed the heart of ignorance, we would be bound to a civil war.  It is our obligation to the minorities--democrats, blacks, atheists, hindus,women etc...-- in those states, who would have to be "freed"

      All our citizens have the right to the protections of the Law and the Constitution, and all are honor bound to enforce that right.

  •  Secede? Seriously? (6+ / 0-)

    First of all, this bill hasn't even passed yet.  Second, as someone else noted, Dem Gov Jay Nixon would veto it.  Third, if the veto was overridden, the courts would throw it out.

    More importantly, did you know that there are a LOT of Democrats living in Missouri?  We've got a Democratic governor, Attorney General, Treasurer, Secretary of State, and one of our two U.S. Senators (Claire McCaskill, one of the best in the Senate).  Please don't throw us away just because of a few idiots.  Or even a lot of idiots.  

    Remember, God would have spared Sodom if there had only been 10 righteous men living there.  We're doing a lot better than that here Missouri.  :)

  •  Where should Brian go? (0+ / 0-)

    How about Guantanamo.

  •  What a waste of Legislative Time (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    singe, Tom Anderson, Patango

    No States Rights causation will ever trump Federal Law.

    These circle jerk reactions are getting old.

  •  Will the South please hurry up and (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    seceded? Since they don't have any slaves we won't stop them this time. Please go!

    •  *secede; darn autocorrect (0+ / 0-)
    •  Please get some new troll material. (0+ / 0-)

      or do you think you are the first person to come up with this?

      •  Not the first. (0+ / 0-)

        But it needs to be repeated. I'd be more than happy if they did. I'm sick of the neo-fascist, religious lunacy that's keeps coming from the South. No matter how many times you beat them, they just keep coming back.

        •  Well tough, the only person talking about (0+ / 0-)

          secession is you. Besides, you need the South, otherwise you would have to come up with a new group of people to hate.

          •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)

            I think people in the North and people in the South would both be happier if they went their separate ways; an amicable divorce. The North could have an enlightened social democracy, and the South could have a fascist theocracy. We'd both be happier!

            •  Based on your commments (0+ / 0-)

              I sincerely doubt that you actually understand what fascism means. Look it up and think about it before you throw big words around. By the way who else do you hate? Do you hate all Southerners? Do you hate African American and Latino Southerners?

              •  At what point have i ever said (0+ / 0-)

                I hated Southerners? I don't. My position is that the North and South would be better off apart than together. We have entirely different understandings of the concepts of freedom and justice, for example. It's not about hate, it's about irreconcilable differences.

                “The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerated the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself.

                That in its essence is fascism: ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power.”

                ― Franklin D. Roosevelt

                •  Whenever you ignorantly throw around (0+ / 0-)

                  irrational terms like "fascist theocracy" (historically two pretty much mutually exclusive systems) that are only intended to offend. Then, yes, you obviously have a prejudiced agenda. To imply otherwise also implies that we are both stupid. Also perhaps we have different definitions of "entirely different". I use the standard dictionary definitions of those terms. Which means that to me your statement is nonsensical and once again intended to offend. So, yes, once again you display prejudice. Your use of Roosevelt's statement about fascism also emphasizes that you don't understand fascist system political and economic systems.

                  •  I would like to point out that (0+ / 0-)

                    Fascist governments have a track record of cooperating with religious organizations. Fascism plus theocracy is certainly not implausible.

                    I would also like to point out I'm not the one resorting to name calling.

                    Finally, if you do not think Pres. Roosevelt did not have a valid definition of fascism, well, we probably are not communicating.

                    My agenda for the purposes of this argument is to have an amicable divorce between the North and South of the USA. I think both people would be happier.

                    •  Lots of governments (0+ / 0-)

                      ,including socialist governments, have cooperated and or tolerated religious organizations. There is nothing unique to fascism about that. Fascists systems believe that the racial/ethnic state is the primary political and economic unit. Theocratic systems believe that a religious system and its religious structures are the primary political and legal structure. Fascism is inherently racist, xenophobic and (yes) socialist. Theocracy seeks universality and the primacy of it's hierarchy over the state. The two systems cannot exist together without (at least) a lot of tension.

                      I would also point out that you were the one who began the name-calling. I seriously doubt that you would enjoy being called a fascist or a lunatic. It's that kind of empty and offensive rhetoric that holds back our movement.

                      Roosevelt's quote was grounded in contemporary American politics. Conservatism and the Right-Wing in the US have never been on the same page as true Fascism because it desires a fundamentally different economic system. Roosevelt knew what real Fascism is, but he was trying to score points against the corporate powers in the US.

                      If your agenda is an "amicable divorce" then stop being intentionally offensive. That is not "amicable". Also, there is no secessionist movement in the South. Your "divorce" means secession of the North from the US.

                      •  Lot to unpack in this one as well. (0+ / 0-)

                        Most socialist systems are agnostic to religion, if not down right hostile. Fascism uses religion to scapegoat an 'out' group, and focus the fears of the majority of populace on that. In the South, it uses Christianity to scapegoat women and homosexuals. It used to scapegoat dark skinned people, but that is a loser these days.

                        Socialism seeks to eliminate private property and private means of production, and put it all under public ownership. Fascism seeks to put private property and private means of productive over the public. Instead of the people owning the property, the property owns the people. Fascism and socialism are mutually exclusive ideologies. Do not confuse socialism with national socialism, which are basic opposites, despite what their names might imply.

                        At what point have I ever called you a name? I don't even know you.

                        American conservatism IS fundamentally on the same page as fascism, because it is fascism, if fascism light. American conservatism in the South comes from the plantation owners from the Caribbean exporting their heinous, evil system to the North American continent.

                        I am not being intentionally offensive, just blunt. Having grown up on the border of the Free State of Iowa and the Slave State of Missouri, I'm just calling it like I see it.

                        •  You still don't seem to know what fascism is. (0+ / 0-)

                          National Socialism was economically a socialist system. Read what Hitler and some of the other National Socialist founders wanted and it is clearly spelled out. Fascism does not seek to put private property over the public. It seeks to put the state/race over the public period. All aspects of the state including property and production were tools for the state to utilize. Hitler hated the traditional conservatives and capitalists in Germany. He cooperated with them (and the Churches) in order to consolidate his power (to maintain the army which in the early days could have easily deposed him, and the industrial economy which he needed to create his "Greater Germany"). The Junkers and capitalists of Germany are the equivalents of mainline American conservatism. I despise them both, but they are not the same.

                          I agree with your comments about religion, but your should still recognize that fascism and theocracy are incompatible systems.

                          American conservatism is many things feudalistic, aristocratic and theocratic, (and yes, in the South, the feudal character is derived in large part from its Caribbean equivalents) but it is not really fascistic. To claim otherwise seems foolish to me.

                          As for being blunt, what your are calling and seeing are not supported by close inspection and therefore look like name-calling to me. Just being blunt.

                          •  We are arguing over semantics at this point. (0+ / 0-)

                            You seem to make a distinction in substance between the plutocrats/oligarchs and the state. In fascism, the two merge and are indistinguishable, and they rule over and own the people, depriving them of their rights.

                            By the very nature of American conservatism being feudalistic, aristocratic, it is fascistic. The theocracy is a nice adjunct to keep the people servile and docile. It works pretty well in the South.

                            What I am calling and seeing IS supported by close inspection. white Southerners like being ruled over by feudal/aristocratic/fascistic/plutocratic overlords. They consistently vote them in. I am not being critical of them as such. If they like it, they are welcome to it. I would like us to get a divorce so they can have what they like and we can have what we like.

                            And FDR was spot-on with his definition of fascism.

                          •  It's not semantics. (0+ / 0-)

                            Sure, in a Fascist system, large parts of the economy are transferred to direct government control. This is true of many socialist economic systems. However, one of the defining characteristics of Fascism, in keeping with its racialist world view, is the drive towards autarky. (think contemporary North Korea, the closest thing around today to true Fascism) This is basically the opposite of the contemporary globalized economy of international capital that American conservatism, including the South, desires and supports. American conservatism is not Fascism. It is feudalistic. Theocracy has always worked well with this type of system. They are mutually supporting. Neither works well with Fascism. Fascism will not allow the capitalists to operate freely, nor will it for long tolerate the ideological competition of assertive organized religion.

                            FDR's definition of fascism was a soundbite. As George Orwell observed, even by the mid 40's the term Fascism had ceased to have any real meaning in most of the instances in which it was used.

                          •  Good points, but... (0+ / 0-)

                            In fascism, the wealth owns the government. In socialism, the government owns the wealth. They are inverses of one another. And they often end up at the same place: with a privileged few controlling the wealth, and everybody else miserable.

                            My old college poli-sci prof once explained fascism as feudalism, updated with technocracy, and utilizing religion and racism. A cult of personality around a Great Leader is often present, but not necessary.

                            This is why I categorize the Southern States as fascist. They have a wealthy few controlling/owning the state governments. The government is used as a tool of oppression against the middle, working and poorer classes. Religion is the reliable lapdog of the State. Women are oppressed, and viewed as breeding stock. Racial, religious and sexual-preference minorities are scapegoated.

                            North Korea is a textbook case of Soviet Communism, not fascism.

                            I do not think fascism is limited to just the time and place of the 1930's. I think it is alive and well, obviously.

                            Brings me back to my original point. If the North and South separate, the South could more quickly and completely go down the path to fascism. I think that is a good thing, and what white Southerners want. Their voting habits demonstrate this. I am not being critical. I want them to determine their own destiny. Similarly, us Northerners could go more quickly and completely down the road of social democracy, which is where we want to be.

                          •  Thanks for the thoughtful reply (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't think that wealth can ever really "own" the government. They can fuse, but government with its monopoly on executive power (ie violence and the power of the state) is always dominant. I agree to some extent to your poli-sci prof's definition of the political and social structure of fascism in practice. In theory, most Fascist ideologues wanted something a bit different (see my previous posts). The prof's definition almost completely ignores the economic structures of Fascism, which is key to fully understanding how such systems function.

                            North Korea was a Stalinist state during the early part of Kim il Sung's rule, but by the mid 60's was functionally a fascist state. Juche Thought is a fascist system and world view. North Koreans may still use a Communist-derived visual culture, but that is about it at this point. I would recommend Brian Reynolds Myers's book "The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why it Matters" as a great discussion of the current North Korean system.

                            I still strongly disagree that the South is Fascist society or that it even desires it, but I have enjoyed a good discussion.

  •  Guns are more important than people (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ThatSinger, Patango

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 04:43:58 PM PST

  •  Kansas did this last year (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Don't remember exactly what happened after Holder told them to STFU.

  •  well said (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    A nullification bill is just secession done piecemeal, after all, and if your guns are more important to you than your nation your nation is better off without you.

    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

    by fcvaguy on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 04:50:54 PM PST

  •  Seriously, secession is not the answer. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tinfoil Hat

    What is really needed is for those folks to renounce their citizenship - since they obviously do not support the US Constitution - and relocate themselves to an area more suited to their Ayn Rand dystopia.

    Somalia works just fine.  

    The most violent element in society is ignorance.

    by Mr MadAsHell on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 04:51:11 PM PST

  •  It would be personally inconvenient, but I'll (0+ / 0-)

    offer my home state of Kansas for the secessionists; plenty of room for them with our low population outside of a couple of urban areas, basically near Kansas City and Wichita.

    On the plus side, it wouldn't make Kansas politics that much more conservative than it already is.

    On the down side, it's pissing on our state's history, but Republicans here have already done that for years now.

  •  If I'm a news director, the day this passes I'm (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    camping out at the nearest TSA checkpoint with coffee, popcorn, and a camera crew sporting Kevlar ponchos.

    AFP: Another Fucking Plutocracy

    by here4tehbeer on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 04:54:10 PM PST

  •  Does this include filing Federal Income Tax (0+ / 0-)

    on the profit of gun sales? (or not as they law may allow)

    Republicans: They hate us for our Freedom.

    by mikeconwell on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 04:54:46 PM PST

  •  Thank you, Hunter! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AmazingBlaise, Major Kong, allensl

    I couldn't put it better myself:

    and if your guns are more important to you than your nation your nation is better off without you.

    Baby, where I come from...

    by ThatSinger on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 04:57:22 PM PST

  •  I remember a diary 3 years or so ago by Muskegon (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Critic. MC reported that a Russian professor had a theory that
    the U.S. would break apart just as the U.S.S.R. did. I didn't think that was possible at that time. The craziness of the last 2 years have me wondering if the prof. might have a point.

  •  simple solution..... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Major Kong

    When they arrest the first federal agent, the feds arrest the governor, the arresting officer and his police chief. The feds immediately stop any and all federal funding and remove all military bases and equipment, including federal items being utilized by their National Guard. All Federal offices are closed and their employees laid off. All benefits paid by the feds including but not limited to Social Security and Medicare are immediatey stopped. All US and interstate highways in and out of the state are  closed. Send them a bill for their portion of the national debt. Let them stew in their juices for a couple of weeks and they'll see the light, as will any other states considering such treasonous activities.

  •  Suspend All Commercial BATF Licenses In The State (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tinfoil Hat, Major Kong that anyone shipping guns or ammo into MO is gun running and violating federal law and

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 05:29:19 PM PST

  •  What's the penalty (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ...for interfering with a Federal Officer in the performance of their duties? Or aiding and abetting people who break Federal gun laws?

  •  guns (0+ / 0-)

    I think to carry concealed one should go through a 36 hour safety/gun law/responsibility course in order to get a permit. Also the minimum age should be 21. And the person should demonstrate their training. What laws are these people nullifying? Seems they don't want to say. Seems they want to toss federal ATF agents in jail for enforcing existing laws. That I don't understand. Here in Arizona out legislature kicked around the idea of allowing students and professors to be armed at our state's universities. Gov. Brewer rightly vetoed the idea.
    I'm a long term gun owner but that does not mean I am some fringe gun nut. Personal responsibility is necessary.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site