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just don't shoot into a car and make sure your intended victim is alone. That's what the jury in the 'loud music' trial just said.

I'm outraged. This is a huge travesty, an abomination, a total miscarriage of justice, in every way, shape and form.

It doesn't matter that this guy - Dunn - will likely spend the rest of his life in prison due to the convictions on the lesser counts.

Give a lot of the blame to the prosecutors, who mysteriously went for first degree murder, as if Dunn parked at that convenience store with the express intent to commit murder. This was the easiest prosecution I've ever seen, and Corley and Guy (the same crew that bungled the Martin murder) ought to be fired.

I suspect that the jury - like in the Martin murder trial - had difficulty lowering the bar from murder to manslaughter, and in the end just gave up and took the easy way out.

'I thought I saw a gun.' That WORKS! Just as long as the victim is a young black male.

Sickening. Just sickening. I can only hope the prosecutor's office will clean house (not likely because Angela Corley is boss in that office) and get their shit together to re-try the case.

Have we no sense of justice left? Is this where our country is headed?

This is horrible, just horrible.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (12+ / 0-)

    Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich Schiller

    by databob on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 04:16:36 PM PST

  •  What are you talking about? Guilty of 2nd Degree (0+ / 0-)

    MURDER.

    What happened is precisely 2nd degree murder. If he had plotted for days and gone out specifically to hunt the victim down and kill him... THAT would be 1st degree murder.

  •  I'm sorry, but I do not agree... (3+ / 0-)

    they couldn't agree on the murder charge, but they convicted on the other 4 counts.

    As such it is a mistrial and will probably be retried again. The Prosecutor is speaking right now saying she won't back off. And they will be going for 1st degree.

    "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." ~ Edward Abbey

    by SaraBeth on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 04:42:07 PM PST

  •  I understand your feelings but hell yes it matters (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doroma, Lujane, buddabelly, Chas 981

    that he was convicted on the lesser counts, that he will spend the rest of his life in prison and that he was not acquitted of the first charge.  He can be retried and convicted.  

    It isn't full justice, I completely agree, but it is way better than the travesty of Zimmerman's acquittal.

  •  SYG (4+ / 0-)

    literally gives you the right to shoot someone if you start a fight with him and start losing.

    It's an abomination of a law, and it can only be made worse in a system where the law is not evenly applied to people of color.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 05:51:03 PM PST

    •  no it doesn't or these same problems would happen (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DavidMS

      here in Az with full unlimited carry as long as you are legal, and stand your ground, castle and full civil immunity.......

      Yet we don't...and yeah, Az can be a bit racist at times so what's the real reason that these type of obvious non self defense cases only show up in Florida?

      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
      Emiliano Zapata

      by buddabelly on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 06:02:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you sure? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buddabelly

        Publicity and existence aren't the same thing.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 06:30:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It really doesn't happen that much here, most (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DavidMS

          self defense cases have been pretty cut and dried, at least those we hear of as you point out....

          We also, a few years back,  changed the law to further defend the person claiming self defense....now the state must prove it was not SD beyond etc...before the person defending themselves had to prove it was......

          I'll do some research over the next couple days and see what I can find....

          It just seems odd that the somewhere close to half of the country that has SYG in one form or another, doesn't have the problems Florida does....

          I'm starting to wonder if their's is different in some material way but have never seen it if it is......

          I mean really, you can't get more permissive on gun laws than Az.  it would be hard anyway yet we still do very well....esp if you don't count the smuggling violence which is most of our non DV violence here as we are a major transhipment point for the entire East....

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 07:06:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  SYG does not eliminate reasionable person standard (0+ / 0-)

      You need to in any case involving the affirmative defense to assault/attempted murder show that based on what you knew at the time that you were behaving as a reasonable person would.  

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/...

      Dunn did not meet that standard.  As I understand it, he was drunk, felt insulted and responded with lethal force.  I don't know enough about the case to determine if there was premeditation (Murder 1 vs Murder 2).  

      I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

      by DavidMS on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 06:59:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  His claim (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ahumbleopinion

        was that he believed the victim to be armed and threatening him.

        It's bullshit, sure, but someone on the jury thought it met SYG.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 07:04:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  People can claim all sorts of things (0+ / 0-)

          It does not make them true.  I can't figure out how someone could see a shotgun pointed out a car window without an actual shotgun being pointed out the window.  

          Its not like someone making a finger gun in their pocket and then bluffing.  

          I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

          by DavidMS on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 07:12:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It only takes one. (0+ / 0-)

            One credulous weenie... or one racist.

            That's the most insidious part of the law. It facilitates those kinds of, er, "judgment calls."

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 07:24:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Our Judicial System (0+ / 0-)

              Is built around the determination that its better that ten guilty people goes free than one innocent person is convicted.  

              I don't like the outcome, but I don't want a system that makes it even easier for innocent people to be convicted.  Its a double edged sword  (where I do not doubt that crimes against minorities are not punished because one racist on the Jury deliberately hangs the jury).  

              I wish I knew a solution.  

              I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

              by DavidMS on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 07:48:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree in principle (0+ / 0-)

                with the better to let ten guilty go free than one innocent be convicted.

                SYG does not further that principle. Demonstrably it's let innocents be convicted AND guilty men go free. q.v. George Zimmerman and Marissa Alexander.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 07:53:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Except SYG was invoked in only one of those cases. (0+ / 0-)

                  Still, there is no doubt there is at least disparate impact in SYG adjudication.  

                  I do not agree at all with the "let ten guilty go free than convict one innocent" principle.  Public safety and equity interests of society as a whole trump the occasional miscarriage of justice, though we could mitigate even that damage by reforming how society deals with its criminal element.

                  •  Incorrect. (0+ / 0-)

                    SYG was invoked in both. It was denied by the judge in the Alexander case.

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 09:04:59 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Only Alexander pursued SYG at pretrial (0+ / 0-)

                      Dunn did not.

                      •  I just linked you two articles (0+ / 0-)

                        that say otherwise.

                        If you don't have evidence to support your claim, I really am not interested in pursuing this further.

                        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                        by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 09:20:49 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  From Dunn's lawyer's closing statement; (0+ / 0-)

                        “His honor will further tell you that If Michael Dunn was in a public place where he had a legal right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.”

                        And the SYG law was included in the jury instructions.

                        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                        by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 09:22:49 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  There was a diffrence between the cases (0+ / 0-)

                  in the Aleander case, she left, went to her vehicle and retrieved the firearm.  Ms. Alexander attempted to drive away but could not get the garage door to open.  It is not clear if she attempted to disengage the garage door opener when the door did not open.  It is also pointed out that she could have left via another door.  

                  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

                  In the Zimmerman case, the prosecution presented a poor case, IIRC.  I think Zimmerman is probably guilty (had he been transported to the hospital and the doctor's examination showed his injuries to the back of his head were consistent with having his head slammed into a concrete sidewalk, I would have been forced to consider it self defense) but benefited from a less than vigorous prosecution where the prosecution was unable to establish a narrative.  

                  Is it fair?  No.  Should Alexander have been sentenced to 20 years?  No.  Mandatory Minimum Sentences are inherently discriminatory.  

                  As for Zimmerman, the lesson to the rest of us is don't look for trouble, it does a good enough job finding us without help.  

                  I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

                  by DavidMS on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 03:12:36 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Didn't have to (0+ / 0-)

          since SYG wasn't even at issue here.  Dunn asserted straight self-defense.

          I've said this before, the real problem is the burden of proof (see johnny wurster's response) required to affirm self-defense.  SYG is a red herring.

          •  Also, incorrect. (0+ / 0-)

            He did invoke SYG as a defense.

            http://nation.time.com/...

            http://www.nytimes.com/...

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 09:08:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Where is the motion requesting the SYG hearing? (0+ / 0-)

              Where's coverage of that hearing?  Where's the judge's ruling?

              Those two links speak to the media and politics of SYG surrounding the case, not to the legal invocation of SYG by the defense.

              •  The exact language used by the defense (0+ / 0-)

                has been cited, as has the fact the judge instructed the jury to consider the SYG law. Now unless you have refuting evidence, we're done here.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 09:40:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  in Florida (0+ / 0-)

                  You can request a hearing to seek immunity under SYG, which is what Alexander did.  There are no reports of Michael Dunn seeking any such hearing.  

                  The "exact language" used by the defense is a direct quote of 776.013 Use of Justifiable Force, which co-mingles enabling circumstances of "stand your ground" with classic justifications of self-defense permitted under 776.012 (776.031--defense of others--doesn't apply here).  However, the relevant question is the immunity from prosecution afforded by 776.032:

                  776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
                  (1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
                  (2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
                  (3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
                  History.—s. 4, ch. 2005-27.
                   
                  •  Then why was (0+ / 0-)

                    SYG included in the jury instructions?

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 06:50:52 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Because "stand his or her ground" is language (0+ / 0-)

                      in 776.013(3).

                      •  That's the Stand Your Ground Law! (0+ / 0-)

                        Jebus. This is ridiculous.

                        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                        by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 07:31:42 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Which is why I said (0+ / 0-)

                          "The 'exact language' used by the defense is a direct quote of 776.013 Use of Justifiable Force, which co-mingles enabling circumstances of "stand your ground" with classic justifications of self-defense "

                          •  so everything you've said to date (0+ / 0-)

                            is either sheepdip or irrelevant.

                            Because SYG is, in fact, at the heart of the case.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 02:35:47 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, it's not (0+ / 0-)

                            Nor was it at the heart of the Zimmerman case.  It was at the heart of the Marissa Alexander case.

                            And back to my original point, SYG is a red herring.  What matters is truly offensive is the burden shifting where it concerns affirming self-defense period.  And Florida is only one of 48 states that require the prosecution to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that a claim of self-defense was false.

                          •  *fhs* (0+ / 0-)

                            No. Self-defense is an affirmative defense in almost every jurisdiction that does not have SYG as law.

                            I'm tired of this. I'm tired of your false assertions and self-contradictions. I yield the floor.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 03:25:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Don't be ridiculous (0+ / 0-)

                            I did make one mistake.  Florida is only one of 49 states.

                            I'm tired of this as well.  I don't particularly care if you rail against SYG until you go blue in the face; it's like raving about the kitchen door being open while the attic's on fire.

                          •  Thanks for actually providing a citation! (0+ / 0-)

                            It is, unfortunately, wrong, or at least incomplete.

                            New York, for example, the first state I looked up:
                            http://lawofselfdefense.com/...

                            http://lawofselfdefense.com/...

                            A defense can be raised only if the defendant can establish the circumstances which are justified and the judge allows it. THEN the burden shifts.

                            Likewise, my own Minnesota:
                            http://lawofselfdefense.com/...

                            Again, the defense is only valid if the defendant can establish a valid case -- and only THEN does the prosecution bear a burden to disprove.

                            Now here's a dissertation on how SYG expands Castle Doctrine which itself expands on traditional self-defense laws.

                            http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/...

                            And this, indisputably, comes into play in the Zimmerman, Alexander, AND Dunn cases, particularly in the "minimum necessary" and "duty to retreat" removals in the alterations to the law under SYG.

                            Bro, do you even law?

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 05:54:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Apparently you forgot last night (0+ / 0-)

                            Provided lots of links for you.

                            If you're going to argue that a law professor is talking out of his ass, you should at least make sure your references actually deal with the question at hand.  

                            1. Your first link simply defines a category of defenses (to be explicitly mentioned by statute) in which the defendant bears the burden of persuasion.  Your second link, which details the defense of justification, most certainly does not declare itself affirmative.

                            2. Radke raises the issue of "burden of production."  That is, in order to raise the defense, you actually have to bother to make it.  Minnesota v. Richey addresses this explicitly while reaching a result in favor of the defendant.  Moreover, Dunn, Alexander and Zimmerman all met their burden of production.  Dunn by taking the stand and stating his side of the story, Zimmerman by witnesses and forensics indicating a struggle, and Alexander by both testimony and I believe evidence no fair jury could've overlooked.  It's a very low burden, akin to probable cause.

                            Explain how "minimum necessary" or "duty to retreat" had any bearing on the Dunn or Zimmerman trial.  Seriously.  Lay it out.

                            Last I checked, I'm in the same line of work you are.

                          •  You're a law professor? (0+ / 0-)

                            Fer real, or are you just playin?

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 06:53:53 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No. (0+ / 0-)

                            John Quigley is.

                          •  Oh, I see. (0+ / 0-)

                            I misunderstood you.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 07:57:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Bee tee dubs, (0+ / 0-)

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 06:56:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So...imprecise language. (0+ / 0-)

                            Got it.

                          •  No idea what you're saying there, (0+ / 0-)

                            but okay.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 07:57:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm saying the community intensity over SYG, (0+ / 0-)

                            has metastasized into a caricature rather than an identifiable  family of addendum to the law of justifiable force.  It's a synonym for ALEC, for privilege in the justice system, and for the vulnerability of minority communities in general and African Americans in particular to violent crime.  But as it's used in the media, it's barely recognizable in a legal sense.  And it's a distraction from the widespread and pernicious threat of self-defense law in general.  What's the point in leaving that pile of snakes thriving and unassailable through single-minded focus on a side issue?

                          •  Oy. (0+ / 0-)

                            So much wrong with what you said. It's a veritable Gish Gallop and I'm worn out of trying to refute it all.

                            I punt to this diary:

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 09:14:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Punt away (0+ / 0-)

                            At this point, you're just looking to pick a fight.  You've been corrected and we can leave it at that.

                          •  Believe what you like. (0+ / 0-)

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Feb 17, 2014 at 06:05:44 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

  •  He attempted to kill three other kids. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DavidMS, David54

    He was convicted on all those charges, which were attempted murder. The judge accepted those charges. The one charge of murder in the Davis killing ended with a hung jury. I have not read what the jury vote was...it may have been just one holdout that hung them up.

    Regardless, he will be retried on the Davis killing. His chances of an acquittal are slim. He is 47 years old, and is not likely to live long enough to make his RED (release eligibility date) no matter what the final verdict is in the Davis killing.  

    There will be an appeal of course. It would be legal malpractice if his attorney did not appeal.  I don't know what they will claim as fatal error in the trial, but I doubt the appellate court will buy it.

    Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

    by Otteray Scribe on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 07:04:01 PM PST

  •  He wasn't acquitted of murder. (0+ / 0-)

    There was a deadlocked jury on that count . I.E. one person may have held out against conviction, but agreed to conviction on lesser counts.
    They can still reprosecute him for murder, but it looks like he'll be put away virtually forever.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 07:54:26 PM PST

  •  Judging from recent events around the country.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peterfallow

    young African-Americans would be justified in taking out a gun and shooting any loud-mouth white male that accosts them for any reason at all, pushy, loud-mouth white males have been proven to be a serious threat to people all over the country, they have shot people for walking home, playing loud music, texting the babysitter during the previews, cutting thru their yards, even for knocking on their front doors!

    WHITE MEN ARE A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER, particularly if you are a black man or youth.

    The FL law apparently lets you shoot people who merely scare you, so black folks probably ought to SHOOT FIRST.

    (yeah it's sarcastic, and close to being over the line, but havent mouthy white men PROVEN REPEATEDLY that I'm right?)

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 09:12:30 PM PST

  •  black lives clearly worthless in the USA (0+ / 0-)

    it's quite simply just that... when reasonable people have difficulty seeing the humanity of our black children, they have difficulty in empathizing and thus they have difficulty in convicting when it is so clear cut to any reasonable person.

    Sept 2011 - How Obama got his groove back! I'm super charged, Fired Up and Ready to go!

    by karanja on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 10:17:26 PM PST

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