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Eight of 41 guns discovered by TSA agents on passengers attempting to board flights last week.
Eight of 41 guns discovered by TSA agents on passengers attempting to board flights last week.
I could get used to this pace! Another sub-40 incident week for GunFAIL! Good job, everyone! Of course, there were still some accidents in all the usual categories. Two law enforcement GunFAILs, two target shooting mishaps, four unsolicited freedom projectiles shared with neighbors, four hunting accidents, and five assorted accidents involving guns being cleaned, cleared, repaired or broken down.

By far, the greatest danger was, as usual, posed to the person handling the gun. Twelve people accidentally shot themselves in this latest collection of stories, and there were nine children accidentally wounded by gunfire, raging in from ages 3, 4, 8, 16, and 17.

Our title story this week comes to us from Muscle Shoals, Alabama, where we found the first accidental discharge at a gun show in 2014. How often does this really happen? Well, this latest incident continues the streak stretching back to 2012 during which we've averaged about one such accident per month, according to the stories I've been able to find. Though it should perhaps be noted that the average was padded by a whopping seven accidents at gun shows during the month of January 2013 (Marietta, OH; Monroe, WA; Laporte, IN; Raleigh, NC; Medina, OH; Indianapolis, IN, and; Des Moines, IA), including three on "Gun Appreciation Day," last January 19th.

Here's hoping the slow pace of accidents continues! Now, below the fold, last week's compilation.

  1. HOLYOKE, MA, 11/24/13: Police Sgt. John P. Hart has been suspended 10 days without pay for leaving his gun, which was recovered, in a restroom at the Holyoke Mall at Ingleside Nov. 24, Chief James M. Neiswanger said Wednesday. This was Hart's second weapon misplacement in two years; he was suspended for losing a sniper rifle in 2011 that was recovered as well. Neiswanger said in an email that an investigation found Hart "violated several rules and regulations" of the Police Department in relation to temporarily losing his gun at the mall, though Neiswanger didn't elaborate, and he couldn't be reached for comment. "Additional administrative restrictions have been imposed upon (Hart) for the next year," Neiswanger said in the email without elaborating.
  2. LAKESIDE CITY, TX, 1/08/14: The body of 55-year-old Paul Morath, Junior was found in early January in a small metal building off Highway 79 near Bowman Road. Authorities say Morath died of an accidental gun shot wound. Officials say the firearm was not functioning properly and had either been intentionally modified or had broken. It's unclear why Morath had the gun or what he was doing when it went off. Morath was seen earlier that morning checking into work, and investigators say he probably had been dead for a few hours before being discovered by a co-worker.
  3. CHATTANOOGA, TN, 1/12/14: Chattanooga Police are continuing their investigation after a 17-year-old was shot in the head at a home on 13th Avenue Sunday afternoon. The incident report reveals detectives were initially told an unidentified suspect pulled up in a vehicle, got out of the passenger seat and started firing shots towards the victim and his two friends as they headed back from the store on Rossville Boulevard. After doing a little digging, detectives found holes in that story. They believe the first story the victim's friend told the arriving officer. The juvenile said, they were playing with a 22 caliber pistol. Detectives believe one of the teenage boys accidentally shot the 17-year-old in the back of the head.
  4. ORRINGTON, ME, 1/30/14: A local resident said he is worried about the safety of people in his neighborhood and those who use his land after he was told that five stray bullets whizzed through the treetops above his property recently. Jerry Perkins, 69, who owns 375 acres of land off Perkins Point Road and whose family has lived in Orrington for 150 years, said he believes the shots were fired from the Orrington Rod and Gun Club’s rifle range, located on East Bucksport Road. The club’s property abuts Perkins’ land. Perkins, a retired school teacher and coach, said he learned about the stray bullets from a commercial logger who has been harvesting trees on his land. He said he believes the shots were fired from a high-powered rifle. “I want to be a good neighbor, but also I’ve got to protect our property here. We’ve got people who live down here. We’ve got families that live down here,” Perkins said, adding that there are eight households on his stretch of road along Brewer Lake. The Jan. 30 incident resulted in some tense moments for Dustin Young, a 22-year-old commercial logger from Waltham, who said he was changing a flat tire on a log harvester on Perkins’ property when he heard bullets going overhead. “I was standing here next to my machine which had a flat tire, and I heard some gunshots go off. I didn’t think anything of it, I figured it was just a normal thing in the neighborhood,” he said Tuesday. “Then I heard a bullet [go through the trees] over my head [which] I thought was a little funny. I was waiting and waiting, and then I heard another one. “So I started getting a little nervous. I started standing behind the machine and then I heard three more after that,” he said. “I was thinking a bullet might ricochet off something and hit me. I was thinking I was gonna get hit in the back of the head with a bullet or something, or in the arm, or [that it would] take out the windshield of my truck.”
  5. AURORA, CO, 2/01/2014: A 17-year-old boy charged as an adult with murder told police he accidentally killed his girlfriend — the mother of his infant daughter — during a bungled robbery early this month. Duantae Jerome Terrell told police he shot his girlfriend, 18-year-old Korin Lijah Williams, in the chest while the couple and another man, Abdullah Jhalil Ratcliff, 19, tried to rob a man Feb. 1 at the Weatherstone Apartments in Aurora.
  6. CANTON, MI, 2/04/14: Police reported a 14-year-old boy to Wayne County juvenile authorities after he said he accidentally fired his father’s 20-gauge shotgun through a mobile home window on the night of Feb. 4, puncturing a tire on a neighbor’s vehicle. The other incident happened about 8:45 p.m. Tuesday, Feb. 4, inside a mobile home in the 51000 block of Mott Road, when a 14-year-old boy initially claimed someone had shot a pellet through a window, a police report said. The teen said he, his brother and a friend were sitting inside the mobile home when the incident occurred. However, a police investigation revealed the 14-year-old boy caused the damage after he got a shotgun from his father’s bedroom and it went off, a police report said. As the investigation unfolded, the teen told police he had been threatened on Facebook and had gotten the shotgun for his own safety. The police report indicated he racked the weapon and accidentally fired a shot through a window, damaging a car tire outside. The teen had put the shotgun back in its case before police arrived. Authorities indicated the boy has a hearing on the matter in Wayne County Juvenile Court.
  7. SPRINGDALE, AR, 2/04/14: Springdale police are searching for a man they say shot himself in the leg, then lied to officers about it. He may still be on crutches. Police are looking for 23-year-old Remberto Alexander Rivera, who told police Feb. 4 that he was shot during a fight near Murphy Park. Rivera was treated at Northwest Medical Center in Springdale for a gunshot wound to the leg. He was later released, according to Springdale police. Detectives determined through the investigation that Rivera had lied to them, and that he instead had accidentally shot himself in the leg, police said. Two felony warrants have been issued for Rivera’s arrest, including possession of a firearm and filing a false police report.
  8. JACKSON, TN, 2/05/14: Jackson Police are investigating a Wednesday evening shooting and for now they are releasing no suspect information. Officers were called to the 600 block of Rich Smith Way just off the Highway 70 By-Pass in east Jackson just before 7 p.m. Investigators said they found a man who had been shot in the leg. Though officers said he originally said someone shot him, they have since determined he accidentally shot himself. He is expected to fully recover.
  9. GALLATIN, TN, 2/06/14: A young man is fighting for his life after an accidental shooting overnight in Gallatin. Police say a 23-year-old was shot in the chest at a home on Hale Avenue. He was airlifted to Vanderbilt University Medical Center in critical condition.
  10. EUTAWVILLE, SC, 2/08/14: The Orangeburg County Sheriff’s Office is investigating Saturday’s shooting death of a man on Yearling Drive in Eutawville. “Officers were called to the Yearling Drive residence at 2:18 p.m. in reference to a shooting incident,” Sheriff Leroy Ravenell said in a release. “Our preliminary investigation indicates a 59-year-old male asked his 14-year-old grandson to retrieve a gun,” Ravenell said. “As the 14-year-old was retrieving the weapon, it accidentally discharged ricocheted through the house and struck the grandfather, fatally injuring him.” The incident is still under investigation.
  11. SPARTANBURG, SC, 2/08/13: Spartanburg County deputies are investigating an armed robbery early Saturday at a Waffle House. Lt. Tony Ivey, a spokesman for the Spartanburg County Sheriff's Office, said a gunshot was accidentally discharged but no one was hurt. According to an incident report, a deputy responded to the report of a robbery at the Waffle House at 8121 Warren H. Abernathy Highway near Spartanburg before 3 a.m. An employee stated a man came into the restaurant and pointed a black handgun at another waitress and demanded money, according to the report. At one point, the man's face covering fell off and when he bent over to hide his face again, his handgun discharged, the report states. The man then ran out of the establishment with an undisclosed amount of money. Multiple witnesses reported seeing the gun discharge, the report states.
  12. PORT ORCHARD, WA, 2/08/14: A 17-year-old girl shot herself in the foot late Saturday afternoon. The teen was at her Kerry Lane home at about 4:30 p.m. when Kitsap County Sheriff’s deputies were sent there. She was home alone trying to familiarize herself with a .22 caliber rifle. She didn’t know it was loaded, it went off and the bullet hit her in the foot, according to the sheriff’s office. She was treated at a Tacoma hospital.
  13. WEWOKA, OK, 2/08/14: The life of an 8-year-old boy was claimed Saturday in a tragic accident. Katie, a Wewoka resident, said, “Everyone is talking about it. Everybody’s mourning about it.” On Saturday, officials say 8-year-old Lane Azlin slipped on ice while hunting. As he fell, his .22 pistol went off, causing him to shoot himself. A short time later, Lane died from his injuries. It happened just north of the town of Wewoka. While not everyone in town knew Lane, most know of his family. Undersheriff Chris Conn, with the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office, said, “I know the mother and father, they’re very good people and probably taught him everything he would need to know about safety with the gun.” Conn added, “One of the kids said the kid slipped on some ice, everything points to that’s what happened.” The sheriff’s office tells us they have ruled this an accidental shooting and no charges will be filed in the case.
  14. TACOMA, WA, 2/09/14: Police said a woman was cleaning a gun in her Tacoma apartment early Sunday when it fired into the unit above her where a family was sleeping. No one was injured when the gun fired about 12:20 a.m. The family awoke and called 911, and the woman was booked into jail on suspicion of reckless endangerment, Tacoma police spokeswoman Loretta Cool said. A one-year-old child and three-year-old child were in the apartment when the shot fired through the floor, Cool said.
  15. FOREST GROVE, OR, 2/09/14: A woman called police after her husband accidentally shot himself in the leg while trying to clear his gun. The man was intoxicated, which was another factor in the incident. He was transported to the hospital for treatment.
  16. MCLURE, OH, 2/09/14: A McClure woman was critically injured after she was accidentally shot by her husband Sunday evening. At 6:47 p.m. Sunday, the Henry County Sheriff’s Office received a 911 call from the area of K-486 Township Road 1C in Richfield Township when Noah W. Smith, 45, of McClure reported he was hunting a squirrel in his barn with his wife, Becky L. Smith, 42, of McClure, and his gun went off, shooting her in the head.
  17. MUSCLE SHOALS, AL, 2/09/14: The operator of a local gun and knife show said a vendor was escorted out of the North Alabama State Fairgrounds on Sunday after a rifle accidentally discharged. “No one was injured,” said Brent Oliver, of Valley Productions Inc., on Monday. “It didn’t hit anybody. The vendor was escorted out of the show and banned from future shows. It’s an unfortunate accident. Thankfully, nobody got hurt.” Valley Productions Inc. operates the Shoals Gun and Knife Show Expo. The incident happened Sunday afternoon on the second day of the two-day expo. Organizers checked and secured the 30-30 rifle after it discharged. “We gave it back to the vendor and asked him to pack up his stuff,” Oliver said. “We’re very humbled by this. Mistakes happen, but that type of mistake does not need to happen at a gun show. I didn’t sleep well last night, I know that.” He said workers check vendors at the door to make sure weapons are secured. All firearms are required to be unloaded. “We do everything we can to make it safe for the public,” Oliver said. “We take extra measures. All weapons must have wire ties placed on them, and apparently this was put on incorrectly. He didn’t check it.” Announcements are made at the show reminding vendors to double check and be sure firearms are unloaded and make sure they are properly secured with a wire tie, Oliver said. Organizers met after the show Sunday night to discuss security measures and are working on additional operating procedures to enhance safety, Oliver said. “We take every measure possible to make it safe for the public,” he said. “It may make a lot of people mad, but they’re just going to have to get over it.”
  18. CRAWFORD, AL, 2/09/14: A father and his daughter along with Sheriff's deputies had to duck for cover from a barrage of bullets Sunday afternoon. "The dad took his 11-year-old daughter with him to his boss' property to get firewood, and suddenly they started getting bullets raining all around them," said Russell County Sheriff Heath Taylor. The bullets from a shotgun, AR-15, handguns and other assault rifles were coming from an area that's about 150 yards into the woods. Three men were allegedly shooting at their targets that were posted right at the fence line, which is where the man and his daughter were gathering firewood. The problem is the bullets were going into property that the trio does not own. This happened on North Richardson Rd. in Crawford near Highway 169 at around 4:00 p.m. Frantically hoping to get out alive, the father called 9-1-1. When deputies arrived on the scene, they walked into the same line of fire as the first two victims. "They were all pinned down behind their cars; the 11-year-old was terrified," says Taylor. "The dad was behind a tree and she took cover behind a car…He couldn't get to his daughter at the time." No one was hurt. They three men are now charged with reckless endangerment. Richard Cleveland Ward, Zachary Ward, and Kenneth Dolly have been named suspects.
  19. CANTON, MI, 2/09/14: Canton police ticketed a 32-year-old man for negligent discharge of a firearm Sunday following allegations he accidentally fired a .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol inside a car, injuring his hand and wounding a friend’s leg, a police report said. Police cited the 32-year-old Taylor man for an incident that happened about 4 p.m. Sunday on Nectar, in The Crossings apartment complex, southeast of Joy Road and I-275. Two men had been to a Livonia gun range and had driven to a friend’s apartment in Canton when the shooting occurred, the police report said. The suspect indicated he was showing his friend how to break down a .40-caliber Smith & Wesson when the gun fired, injuring his left hand and striking his friend, a 32-year-old Garden City man, in the leg, the report said. The bullet also pierced a pop bottle and went through the center console of a Dodge Charger. Canton paramedics took the men to St. Joseph Mercy Hospital in Ypsilanti for injuries police said were not life-threatening.
  20. SPANISH FORK, UT, 2/10/14: A Spanish Fork man was taken to the hospital in critical condition after accidentally shooting himself in the stomach. The 50-year-old man was unloading a .270 caliber rifle from his truck when it discharged early Monday morning. The man was conscious and breathing when medical arrived. UPDATE: He didn't make it.
  21. PLANT CITY, FL, 2/10/14: A retired dentist who served four years on the city commission died Monday of an apparent accidental gunshot, Plant City police said. Officers were called to James R. Hoover's Sandalwood Drive home about 12:30 p.m., police Sgt. Tray Towles said. Hoover was reportedly handling a gun when it fired, said Towles, who had no other details. Hoover, 72, served on the city commission from 1978-1982.
  22. COCOA, FL, 2/10/14: Brevard County Deputies say the shooting death of a Cocoa teen on Monday was accidental. Deputies say they responded to a home on Tomlin Drive in Cocoa around 4:15pm Monday after a man had been shot. Investigators say 18-year-old Reginald Von Wright Jr. was unresponsive when they arrived because of an apparent gunshot wound to his chest. Officials say Wright was airlifted to Holmes Regional Hospital where was pronounced dead. Investigators say they believe that 25-year-old Steven Donte Speed accidentally shot Wright as he was making repairs to an AR-15 rifle while sitting in the living room. Speed told investigators Wright was sitting on the couch when the rifle discharged once and the bullet struck him in the chest. The investigation into the incident is ongoing.
  23. CLARKDALE, AZ, 2/10/14: Just before 9 p.m. Monday night, Clarkdale Fire crews were dispatched to the 400 block of Bent River Ranch Road. The incident was described as an accidental gunshot injury. Emergency crews found a man with wounds in his leg. They provided medical care and the patient was transported to Verde Valley Medical Center by Verde Valley Ambulance Company.
  24. CINCINNATI, OH, 2/10/14: Two people were transported to University of Cincinnati Medical Center after being shot at an apartment complex Monday afternoon in Hartwell. A 27-year-old man told police that he was shot outside his vehicle in an apartment complex parking lot in the 7400 block of Constitution Drive. The victim told police that he was shot in the back and robbed. According to the incident report, the man suffered a possible internal injury. Meanwhile, a stray bullet went through the wall of an apartment and struck a 67-year-old woman in her knee.
  25. BELTON, SC, 2/11/14: A Belton woman was hospitalized Tuesday night after accidentally shooting herself, according to police. A neighbor called emergency dispatchers with a report of a shooting at 211 Lewis St. just before 6:30 p.m. Belton police arrived to find the victim, whose name has not been disclosed, suffering from an unspecified gunshot wound. Chief Tommy Clamp said the woman was able to tell police that she had accidentally shot herself. She was taken to AnMed Health in Anderson, but her condition is unknown. Clamp did say the woman was responding to questions at the hospital from police. Clamp said the investigation was continuing but the shooting appears to be accidental. He doesn’t anticipate any charges being filed “unless something changes dramatically.”
  26. BRIDGEWATER, MA, 2/11/14: A 22-year-old Grove Street resident accidentally shot himself in the leg as he was cleaning a handgun Tuesday evening, Bridgewater police said. The man’s girlfriend called 911 at 5:20 p.m. on Tuesday Feb. 11 saying her boyfriend had just shot himself, Bridgewater Police Lt. Thomas Schlatz said. Brian Cunha, 22, of 21 Grove St. was transported to South Shore Hospital by ambulance with a non-life threatening wound to the lower leg. Bridgewater police officers secured the scene and medical personnel from the Bridgewater Fire Department treated the injury. "Initial reports reveal the gun shot was an accidental discharge of a .45 caliber handgun," Schlatz said. The incident is under investigation by Bridgewater police detectives. No charges have been taken out at this time.
  27. HOUSTON, TX, 2/11/14: A woman was sent to the hospital with a gunshot wound to her buttocks after deputies say a shootout occurred in the parking lot outside her apartment. It happened around 9 p.m. Tuesday in the 5700 block of West Mount Houston Road, according to deputies with the Harris County Sheriff’s Office. Witnesses said several shots were fired after a group of men got into a fight. One of the rounds pierced the wall of a nearby apartment, and deputies said a woman inside was shot in her rear as she relaxed on couch. Deputies were told by witnesses that one of the men involved in the fight was shot as well, but he was gone when authorities arrived. No arrests were made. The injured woman was sent to the hospital in stable condition.
  28. VIVIAN, LA, 2/12/14: Caddo Parish deputies are investigating after a teenager was shot in the face in Vivian Wednesday morning. Deputies say around 11:30 a.m. they responded to a report of a shooting in the 300 block of Choctaw Drive. Deputies say a 16-year-old boy was playing with a .38 loaded with rat shot when he accidentally fired the gun hitting another 16-year-old boy in the cheek. The victim was taken to North Caddo Medical Center with non-life threatening injuries.
  29. LAKE WORTH, FL, 2/13/14: Authorities say a 3-year-old Lake Worth girl died after what appears to be an accidental shooting at her home. Palm Beach County Sheriff's officials say Zuri Chambers was shot with an unsecured weapon Thursday. She and her father were the only two people in the house. Zuri was flown to Delray Medical Center, where she died Thursday night. A neighbor told the Palm Beach Post that a young couple moved into the home less than a year ago and she often saw the man playing with the little girl. Another 8-month-old child also lives in the house. A sheriff's spokeswoman said charges are possible because Florida law requires that weapons in homes be kept securely. It's not yet clear how the girl came into contact with the weapon.
  30. BULLOCK CO., AL, 2/13/14: 61 year old Billy Wayne Stinson of Montgomery was killed Thursday in a hunting accident in Bullock County. The incident took place while Stinson and a friend were quail hunting. Police are still investigating but are calling the death accidental.  No charges have been filed against the man who shot him. Stinson was shot in the neck and chest. His body was taken to a hunting lodge in Bullock County. The information was confirmed by the Bullock County coroner and an official with the Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries.
  31. CARLISLE, PA, 2/13/14: The victim of a shooting incident in Carlisle on Thursday was out of the hospital and in good condition Friday as police continue to search for the suspects in the brazen daylight shooting. Carlisle Police released surveillance photos Friday from the downtown camera system that show two suspects they say were involved in Thursday afternoon’s shooting in the first block of West Pomfret Street. Police said they narrowed it down to two people after reviewing the camera system and interviewing witnesses. The incident happened near Buzz Express, 39 W. Pomfret St., when four to six shots rang out from near the intersection of Pomfret and South Hanover streets. One bullet hit a girl in the head, and another bullet grazed a second person on the arm, police said. A loose round went through her clothing, but she was not injured. “We are believing that it was a stray bullet, so we are thinking two innocent victims,” Carlisle Police Lt. Stephen Latshaw said. Police say the two victims were not intended targets, and the girl shot in the head was taken to Carlisle Regional Medical Center.
  32. FAYETTEVILLE, AR, 2/14/14: Detectives are at a home on Calver Court in north Fayetteville after police said an 8-year-old girl accidentally shot herself Friday. Fayetteville Police Lt. Todd Joyce said the child was shot in the leg and that the injury was not life threatening. Officers were still investigating Friday evening. The shooting happened about 4:15 p.m. on the 4000 block of Calver Court. Joyce said a grandparent was in the home with the child when the shooting occurred. The child found the handgun in the master bedroom of the home, a news release said. The girl was taken to Cape Fear Valley Medical Center, Joyce said.
  33. GAITHERSBURG, MD, 2/14/14: Montgomery County Police are investigating a shooting that happened near the Gaithersburg Library, which was closed today. They are still trying to figure out why this happened. WUSA9 has learnt that a 17-year-old girl was shot and is expected to survive. Police are looking into the possibility that the shooting may have been over a jacket but they cannot say for certain. They also say they do not believe it was a robbery. They are calling this an accidental shooting. The call came out around 1:00 p.m. at 18330 Montgomery Village Avenue and Christopher Lane. Chopper 9 was above the scene where police were actively investigating and collecting evidence. The 17-year-old girl was transported to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries.
  34. GAINESVILLE, FL, 2/14/14: Alachua County Sheriff's Office Court Security Supervisor accidentally discharged his weapon...inside the courthouse. Now, the incident is under investigation. Lieutenant Calvin Decoursey was getting ready to clean his gun when a live round discharged into a briefcase in his office. No one was hurt in the incident. The Alachua County Sheriff's Office said that Lieutenant Decoursey followed all the protocols for reporting this incident. He has been put back on patrol, something the Sheriff's Office says was already in the works.
  35. BRUNSWICK, GA, 2/14/14: A morning shooting at a motel that triggered a massive search and the lockdown of nearby businesses was accidental and self-inflicted, Glynn County Police Chief Matt Doering said. Acting on statements made by the victim and at least one other man, police searched for hours for a gunman who did not exist. Doering said at 11:45 a.m. that investigators had just developed evidence that the male victim shot himself accidentally and that a friend had hidden the gun for him so he would not get in trouble for having it, Doering said. The man was shot in the leg at Baymont Inn & Suites on Center Drive after 8 a.m. and was airlifted to a trauma center for treatment, said Capt. Marissa Tindale of the Glynn County police shortly after the shooting. In the wake of the shooting, police searched the area for a 5-foot-6, black male who was said to be wearing a mask and a multicolored long sleeve shirt. Police were told he fled on foot and had a handgun. Doering estimated that 20 uniformed officers plus detectives and a dozen special operations team officers responded to the shooting scene to search for a gunman who didn’t exist. He identified the wounded man as Mario Walden, 30. Doering said he was taken to UF Health Jacksonville but said he did not know Walden’s condition. Police methodically knocked on the doors of and checked all 100 rooms in the Concorde as a day-care center, Gateway Behavioral Health Services and other nearby businesses remained locked down. As officers continued searching, a friend of the wounded man told police he had hidden the gun in the trunk of his car and driven it across to the Concorde, Doering said. The man said police were taking the matter so seriously that he had to tell the truth, Doering said. Police learned that Walden had a handgun in his waistband underneath his shirt and it accidentally discharged as he left his hotel room striking him in the leg, Doering said. Walden is a felon who is not allowed to have a gun under Georgia law, he said.
  36. EL DORADO CO., CA, 2/14/14: A 11-year veteran California game warden is in the hospital with serious injuries after a shooting incident in a rural stretch of El Dorado County. Warden Bob Pera was approaching two hunters just after dark Friday for a compliance check when a shot was fired. California Department of Fish and Wildlife Lt. Patrick Foy said Pera was hit in the hand and bullet fragments entered his neck. After he was shot, Pera was able to use his radio to give sheriff's deputies his location. "It was pretty complicated just to get help to him," Foy said. "He had to give almost step by step directions on how to get through some of these dirt roads." Pera got the hunters to stay, and they eventually helped him with his wounds. The El Dorado County Sheriff's Department is leading the officer-involved shooting investigation. Details about the shooting are limited as the investigation continues. For now, Foy said investigators haven't determined if this was an accidental shooting or something else. "Everything's possible at this point, so we just don't know," Foy explained. Investigators detained the two hunters, but by Saturday morning they were not in custody. No arrests have been made in the shooting.
  37. WASHINGTON, DC, 2/14/14: A little girl leaving her aunt’s home on Valentine’s Day had just opened the door to the apartment building for two men, District police said, when minutes later six gunshots rang out. Children who were in the apartment complex’s courtyard ran, pointing and screaming, “There they go!” as the men fled, according to a detective. One of the children who ran was the 8-year-old girl who had opened the door. She had been struck in the upper left chest by a stray bullet, police said. On Saturday, as the girl remained hospitalized in critical but stable condition after surgery, D.C. police charged two men in the shooting that occurred about 3 p.m. Friday in the 1200 block of Valley Avenue SE.
  38. ARANSAS PASS, TX, 2/14/14: A 4-year-old in Aransas Pass is in stable condition after being shot in the chest Friday night, police said. Emergency crews were dispatched to a shooting at 9:50 p.m. Friday in the 2000 block of W. Wheeler Ave. Police arrived on scene and found a 4-year-old child with a gunshot wound in the chest. Police said the child was alert and communicating when law enforcement arrived. The child was transferred to the hospital for treatment while officers and investigators continue to investigate the shooting. According to Aransas Pass officials, the shooting is said to be an accident. UPDATE: The father of the four year-old who was shot last weekend in Aransas Pass is facing charges for that accidental shooting. According to police, Tommy Cruz was cleaning his handgun with his son in the room. Police say he reloaded the gun, and it accidentally went off - hitting his son in the chest with a 45-caliber bullet. The young boy survived.

Originally posted to David Waldman on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 12:30 PM PST.

Also republished by Repeal or Amend the Second Amendment (RASA), Shut Down the NRA, and Daily Kos.


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Comment Preferences

  •  Said it in several threads... (4+ / 0-)

    Any time you guys want to lobby for a nationwide public service campaign on safe firearms handling practices that would reduce these incidents (though certainly not eliminate them, you can't cure everybody's stupid) I'll be right there lobbying for it with you.

    •  Yeah, you start. Do a demonstration at your local (5+ / 0-)

      shooting range or gun club.

      You know I am joking, don't do that. It wouldn't be safe.

      Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

      by 88kathy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 01:20:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KVoimakas, Joy of Fishes, FrankRose

        I taught it (safe handling, range rules) to scouts for several years as a camp counselor at one of the largest scout camps in the country. I have also instructed my son, my wife, and a couple of my son's friends who went shooting with us. Unfortunately the reach of that is pretty limited. A nationwide PSA campaign on the scale of the anti-smoking ones (or rather a couple, one directed at kids and one at adults) would do a lot more good. You could hammer home 3 or 4 basic rules (and 1 or 2 for kids) that if they sank in would potentially prevent about half these incidents.

    •  I'd like your help in lobbying to make it much... (7+ / 0-)

      ... more difficult to get a gun, particularly a handgun. Any fucking idiot can get a handgun in this country, as this series proves.

      You with me, nate?

      "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

      by Bob Johnson on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 01:43:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, you know I am not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Any fucking idiot can buy a ladder too and a couple thousand people die each year as a result of it.

        However, what we CAN do, where we SHOULD agree is that people should have more education on safety. Pretty much every firearm comes with a pamphlet that has safety rules in it. Like most safety pamphlets we get with everything from lawn mowers to blenders they get thrown in a drawer never to see the light of day again. A much better approach would be to offer free classes in safety at the community level (maybe federal block grants) and to do a nationwide PSA campaign where we hammer some a few basic rules that will make all of us safer.

        •  I knew it! Ladders are more dangerous than guns! (7+ / 0-)

          And so are hands!

          Guns are sacred!

          "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

          by Bob Johnson on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 02:36:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  No, we should make sure handguns are much harder (6+ / 0-)

          ... to obtain.

          Getting a gun is insanely easy in the U.S.

          We are the outlier, by far, among civilized nations. And we have the gun violence to prove it.

          "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

          by Bob Johnson on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 02:38:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  LOL, you made a funny because we're not civilized (5+ / 0-)

            nosotros no somos estúpidos

            by a2nite on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 02:56:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's what the leader of RKBA here told me. (6+ / 0-)

              That's why he packs heat.

              "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

              by Bob Johnson on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 03:24:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  We're not civilized because of the 2nd amendment (5+ / 0-)

                There is no such thing as a good guy with a gun.

                nosotros no somos estúpidos

                by a2nite on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 03:33:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Guns are sacred! (6+ / 0-)

                  You know that.

                  "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                  by Bob Johnson on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 03:38:34 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Of course not. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kasoru, FrankRose

                  Those millions of defensive gun uses don't count.

                  •  Millions. heh How large was that telephone (4+ / 0-)

                    survey?  Repeat: telephone survey.

                    "But I do apologize, JVolvo, for you are arbiter of all that can and cannot be discussed and I bow down to your supremacy when it comes to what can be written on this website." WinSmith 1/22/2014 - "OK" JVolvo 1/23/2014 (sorry, Clive)

                    by JVolvo on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 04:33:59 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  *roll eyes* (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Glen The Plumber

                    Millions? Seriously?

                    I'm surprised we're not inundated with orders of magnitudes more DGU stories compared to accidental and unjustified shootings then.

                    Go on, start your diary series listing the daily DGUs. Should be a piece of cake to get thousands a day.

                    External validation.

                    Learn it.

                    •  Studies show a wide variation from 108k (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kasoru, FrankRose, ER Doc

                      (from a study that wasn't even LOOKING for DGUs) to 2.5 million (which, from the sounds of it, was bogus).

                      The 'usual' number accepted is 1.5 million.

                      So "millions" might've been inaccurate but we're talking about an order of magnitude when comparing defensive gun uses to injuries/deaths related to firearms.

                      •  Those studies have been debunked (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Glen The Plumber

                        by multiple external validation calculations, which puts the numbers in a range from 10-60k per year.

                        You are free to critique the external validation methodology if you like, but don't even pretend that the 'acceptance' of those self-reported survey numbers is valid in any statistical sense.

                        FFS, 1.5 million DGU per year doesn't even pass the smell test as we would be inundated by an order of magnitude more 'stories' about DGU compared to the GunFAIL diaries.

                        •  Link to those refutations? nt (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Kasoru, ER Doc, FrankRose
                          •  I've posted them before: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Glen The Plumber

                            1st one:

                            # of annual justifiable homicides: 200
                            mortality of gunshot wounds ~20% -> 200/20% = 1000 justifiable woundings
                            percentage of DGUs where attacker is wounded ~8% (Kleck) -> 1000 / 8% ~ 12k justifiable DGUs per year

                            Possible critiques:

                            mortality of gunshot wounds is calculated from wounds only serious enough for hospitalization (would lower mortality and increase DGU result)

                            mortality for attackers would be higher since less likely to visit hospital for serious wounds (would lower DGU result)

                            Kleck's percentage of woundings per DGU is too high (would increase DGU result)

                            Kleck's percentage of woundings per DGU is too low (would lower DGU result)

                            The number from Kleck is the most uncertain, though it seems likely that an objective ratio (percentage time that attacker was wounded) vs. a subjective absolute (did you engage in a DGU) would yield more accurate results.

                            Furthermore, comparison of 'wounding ratio' to 'shot at attacker ratio' indicates a multi-shot hit percentage of ~50%, which is comparable to real world stats lending additional confidence to the figure.

                            2nd external validation:

                            Violent crime rate is about 390 per 100k people annually.
                            There are roughly 6M CCW permits.
                            Assuming they carry 100% (overestimate obviously) that would mean ~23k crimes against gun carriers per year.

                            Since ~2/3rds of DGUs were outside the home (Kleck), that would increase DGUs to 40k if you include the 1/3rd at home.


                            Obviously, 100% of CCW permit holders are not carrying 24/7 (would reduce DGU results by what, 50%?)

                            Crime/DGU is under-reported. True, both by about 30%, which would boost DGUs up to about 60k if the violent crime rate did not already take under-reporting into consideration.

                            This only counts DGU that would have prevented a crime.

                            So, again we get a range of results from 10-60k depending on what assumptions you make, but in each of these cases we are relying on actual measured values for the most part, instead of completely relying on whether or not someone thinks that flashing a gun at a tresspasser was a legitimate DGU.

                            Furthermore the numbers and uncertainties in the two validation calculations are different. Therefore, the fact that they both provide numbers within the same ballpark lends additional confidence that the numbers that were more uncertain (the percentages from Kleck) weren't too far off.

                            How does this square with Klecks predictions of 2.5M DGUs (or all the other self-reported surveys)? Simple. The vast majority of those DGUs were 'unjustified', and not used to prevent a crime. In other words, the majority of them were likely criminal OGUs that the self-reporting gun owner misreported as a DGU. False positives for small numbers that completely skewed the results.

                            And, given the observed mentality of gun owners regarding various stories here at DKos (shootout in Michigan ring a bell?), this seems not only likely, but bloody obvious.

                            3rd external validation: (somewhat related to 1st, more of a consistency check)

                            There are ~60k recorded firearm injuries per year

                            8% wounding rate (Kleck) * 2.5M = DGU 200k firearm injuries

                            8% wounding rate * 1.5M = DGU 120k firearm injuries

                            8% wounding rate * 30k (mean from above) = 2.4k

                            So, from the survey results, we have DGU firearm injuries either 300% of the recorded rate, or 200% of the recorded rate.

                            Or, using a mean from the previous validation calculations, we have about 4% of total firearm injuries from DGUs.

                            Browsing the various GunFAIL diaries, which do you think is more likely? That there are 2-3 times the number of injuries out there from DGUs that just aren't being reported? Even though Kleck says only 1/3 of the DGUs aren't reported?

                            Finally, while you can quibble on the exact values of some of the uncertainties from Kleck, one thing you can't argue with is that Kleck absolutely fails a self-consistency check. If his numbers are orders of magnitude uncertain (which is what you need to support the 1.5-2.5M DGUs), then that uncertainty will remain in the final result, giving you a survey result of 1.5 DGUs +/- 15 DGU, for example. Therefore, they didn't measure any specific absolute value with any accurate significance.

                            Furthermore, the nature of this uncertainty has to derive from the type of study itself. That being the self-reporting of whether a particular gun use was really a non-criminal DGU.

                          •  Given that only about 10% of DGUs (6+ / 0-)

                            Involve any shots being fired, there's one order of magnitude right there.

                            Applying this to your numbers gives a range of 600 - 800 thousand a year... which is right about in the middle of the range of estimates I've seen, so it's probably not too far off.


                            "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
                            "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

                            by Leftie Gunner on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 02:40:53 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  16% (0+ / 0-)

                            And that's included in the external validation #1 (through the wounding rate/DGU), and is irrelevant for external validation #2, which just relies on crime stats.

                            16% of DGUs involve the defender shooting at the attacker and an 8% wounding rate per DGU (according to Kleck).

                            This is how you get from 1000 justified woundings to ~12k DGUs per year, that's your order of magnitude.

                            Why would people uprate something that is mathematically incorrect? I mean, I can understand if you don't agree with the external validation analysis, but your post is fundamentally and factually mathematically wrong.

                            And yet it gets 3 uprates? Weird. Any upraters care to explain your thought process here, I find it incomprehensible.

                          •  Ozy, my reply is below. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tom Seaview, gerrilea, Kasoru

                            "Two nights ago..." a true story.

                            I live in a "gun-friendly state".
                            With un-gun-friendly police.

                            Community Policing Officer, October 2011:

                            Crime being committed?
                            Take a still photo of the person committing the crime.
                            Try to get a real good facial image.

                            Do not videotape, as that requires consent of all parties, particularly if there is audio.
                            If you present video, we may be back to arrest you.
                            No option, we enforce the law equally.

                            Be CERTAIN the person "committing the crime" has NO business being there/doing so.

                            Display or use a firearm, or other weapon, we will make an arrest.  You can plead Castle or SYG in court.  
                            That is after your incarceration without bond, after we confiscate your weapon(s) and ransack your house.

                            Your job, your only job.  Be a good victim, get a useable photograph, and turn the evidence over to us.
                            WE are the cops.  NOT you.  

                            IF you plead Castle or SYG, and we can get the right Judge to vacate that and direct a conviction?
                            The law our Boss's Boss* HATES is DEAD.  Goal #1.
                            ALL guns out of civilian hands?  Goal #2.

                            One day you'll thank us.

                            Us cops doing what we want, without fear, without judicial interference?  New Goal #1.

                            He found himself arrested not too many months later.
                            Seems he didn't wait long-enough for new goal #1 to become law.

                            *The Boss of the Chief of Police, would be the city politicians.

                          •  Reply to what? (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm not clear as to what point you're trying to make regarding the previous analysis.

                            You can't take video recordings without consent? I find that highly unlikely. If your police are this misinformed, you've got a big problem, completely unrelated to guns.

                            Considering how this, and your dog anecdote seem to be pretty large deviations from the topic of DGU external validation, perhaps you would be better served to start a discussion branch of your own.

                          •  Dog or gun, if there isn't a body (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, Kasoru, andalusi

                            in a morgue or in a hospital?
                            IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.  

                            Statistically speaking.  
                            Everything else is either an 'anecdote' or a complete fabrication.
                            a/k/a right wing meme/bald face lie/NRA talking-point

                            Of course, more bodies is directly pertinent to the GunFail diaries, and cause for a complete and total civilian gun ban.

                          •  What didn't happen? (0+ / 0-)

                            You're not making any sense.

                            Are you seriously trying to equate 32 deaths per year from dog bites, mostly from pit bulls, and 30,000 deaths per year from guns, mostly hand guns?

                            Are you suggesting that since some jurisdictions ban pit bulls that, since guns are a thousand times more deadly, that perhaps we should consider banning hand guns as well?

                            Seems like you're a bit ahead of the curve as far as gun bans go, but if you want to take up that goal, then have at it.

                            If you have some other point, I'm afraid I'm not able to discern it from your writings.

                          •  Ozy, there's a game called gun statistics (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kasoru, andalusi

                            I used my real-time dog incident as an "anecdote" in your words.

                            As far as the effectiveness of owning a dog goes?
                            She didn't bite anyone, so...
                            there wasn't a "dog incident" per State statistics.
                            No incident recorded?  
                            It never happened - statistically.

                            So, let's examine the DGU statistics.

                            1) someone needs to be shot, for it to be a statistic.

                            2) if someone isn't shot, yet a gun is discharged, it's reckless endangerment.  
                            A crime against the whole community.
                            Endangering the welfare of your children.
                            The very essence of GunFail diaries.

                            3) if a gun is displayed, and not fired, it's criminal threatening with a firearm.  "Menacing" is how it's codified in some States.

                            There's a common meme expressed:
                            "Non-discharge firearm displays are really the criminal threatening of innocent people mistakenly in a given location, with or without permission."

                            Exactly the reasoning given by my local PD, when my spouse interrupted someone removing her property from her car last year.

                            "HOW do you KNOW they weren't just mistaken?  Your car looks like 100 others in town."
                            Her reply:
                            Oh, I don't know.  Burglar tools used instead of a key?  Instead of knocking on the door at 4:00 AM:  
                            "Hey, I'm here for that iPod, iGo charger, and $8 in toll change you advertised as free-to-a-good-home on Craigslist."

                            She was told not to be a smart-ass.  Don't call if you don't have a photo of them in-commission, and a license plate of their car.  We have important police work to do, and dealing with petty-ante crap isn't it.

                            To your use of statistics:

                            Are you seriously trying to equate 32 deaths per year from dog bites, mostly from pit bulls, and 30,000 deaths per year from guns, mostly hand guns?
                            Your "30,000 deaths" includes a majority which are suicides.
                            As we're a gun-loving country, that would put us at the top of international suicide rates per-capita.
                            More guns = more suicides.

                            WHO statistics:
                            US ranked 33, though to be honest, that's before the uptick in middle-aged/wiped-out-of-my-investments, and veteran suicides.  I'd slide us up to 21, even with Finland.  
                            5.5 million Finns, own 1.6 million guns.
                            Average of 2 persons, per household.
                            5.5 million divided by 2, is 2.75 million.
                            That 2.75 million applied against 1.6 million firearms is 58%.

                            Of course, Finland doesn't limit you to 1 gun per household, so the 58% figure is off by an undetermined percentage.

                            US, per Gallup:
                            47% report gun ownership.

                            I'd say that's comparable, and why I'd anchor US suicide statistics to Finland's.  
                            Neither of which breaks the top 20, nor the top 10, nor #1 in suicide rate per 100,000 persons.
                            But... but... the GUNZ.

                            Here's a recent article from the
                            NY Times, never one to shy away from blaming guns.
                            The NY Times fails to mention the huge uptick in US firearm ownership ratios.  
                            Fails to mention the Republican/RW/NRA spew about needing MORE GUNZ as causative.  
                            Fails to say, or infer that the real issue is the guns, only the guns, and quite frankly?
                            THE GUNS.

                            NO GUNS = NO SUICIDES.

                            You'd think that would be a concise, easy to set type-for, conclusion.

                            As to me being ahead of the curve on gun bans?
                            No.  I failed to bookmark the one Kossack who had the nerve to say:
                            Eventually they're all gone.  One by one, Assault Weapons today, handguns tomorrow.
                            Rifles, then shotguns, until civilian gun ownership is relegated to a thing of the past.

                            While I disagreed with the intent, I tipped for honesty.

                          •  Math, ehe??? Since I've uprated that post... (0+ / 0-)

                            here's my position.

                            When we dissolve this conversation into pure math, we become less than human.  Math says the answer is: 42

                            Since we already know the final answer is at least 108.000 DGU's each year...that number outweighs the 11,000 murders, by a factor of what??? 10x.

                            That's the bottom line, when you do the math.

                            Does it really matter if there are 2.5 million or 10 million DGU's each year?

                            What if just 1 life was saved?

                            What if that 1 life was yours?

                            Would the numbers matter then???

                            Surely not.

                            When I was 13 yrs old, a gang tried to break into our home.  I was trained to arms, both physically and mechanically.  My older sister and I were home alone, our Father and his 3rd wife were out grocery shopping.  They came for him.  When I realized they were going to break the front door down, I quickly loaded his 357 and my sister got the 12 gauge.  When they finally broke through the front door, their leader took one step over the threshold and I raised the loaded weapon directly to his head, giving him two choices, leave or take another step and be killed.  The 15-20 other gang members on our porch and front yard stopped.  

                            Their leader started to move towards me and I was pulling on the that same moment... my sister cocked the 12 gauge behind me (they hadn't seen here standing on the steps behind me) and they then realized we weren't playing games, they fled.

                            Not one shot was fired and 4 lives were saved that day.

                            Upon reflection of those events during my meditations I did daily as part of my karate training, I realized one thing.  I would have killed as many of them as I could, without thought, without remorse and without regret.

                            "It's easy to pull the trigger, but can you live with the results?"  

                            That reality was one of the many things our father taught us.  I realized that I could have, would have become a killer in an instant, at the age of 13 yrs.

                            I've never owned a firearm because of that day and that moment.........I shall never become a killer.

                            Each of us makes the choices we do, their ours to make...and ours to take responsibility for.

                            Freedom isn't for the weak.

                            Your math is truly meaningless in this world.  

                            Reality is: in this nation there are over 108,000 similar instances where someone's firearm saved a life.

                            Even more tragic is the truth that over 11,000 times,  a firearm killed another.  In one brief moment pulling that trigger was the easiest thing to do.

                            WHY?  What have we done wrong?  Why have we made life so cheap?  

                            Why don't our children KNOW the value of a human life???????????

                            The gun didn't do this.....WE DID!

                            What answer does your math give us?  

                            Do you naively believe if all guns were magically removed from this nation tomorrow, we'd instantaneously know that life is precious and it surely doesn't grant "do-overs"???

                            I know better...


                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 08:26:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

                            That was an utter word salad.

                            If you think the 'math' is unimportant, then why did you even bother to comment since this was a mathematical exercise to demonstrate that the self-reported surveys fail external validation.

                            We don't know that the 'final' answer is 108k DGUs because that also was an extrapolated self-reported survey that also fails external validation (though by far less than the 2.5M estimate), and it also doesn't include a confidence interval or error bars.

                            And why would you even compare DGUs solely against murders since not every DGU is a life saved? Heck, according to the Kleck survey, roughly half the DGUs occurred when there was no threat offered. If you want to use a proper comparison, compare real DGUs (positive gun use) to gun injuries and threats (negative gun use).

                            As far as your anecdotal evidence, I'll just direct you to the GunFAIL diary. Feel free to look up the families of the victims and comfort them with your story.

                            However, the fact that you conflate each DGU as a 'life saved' means you haven't even bothered to understand what those flawed surveys were even measuring.


                            No threat or attack: 46.8%

                            Defenders perception whether someone would have died without DGU:
                            Almost certainly would have: 15.7%

                            Why is life so cheap you ask? Perhaps because of aspects of our culture, a culture that worships the ability to end life so easily with a gun to such an extent that even sane regulations are met with massive hostility and political blow-back.

                            If all guns were 'magically' removed from our country tomorrow, I do know one thing for sure. That day's GunFAIL diary would be a hell of a lot shorter. Can you say anything else with such certainty?

                            However, getting back to the surveys, can you (or anyone else) provide an example of a justified DGU when no threat or attack is offered? For the life of me, I can't seem to envision such a case where the gun use would be 'defensive', since there is no threat or attack being 'defended' against.

                            Does this not appear that there are at least 50% false positives built right into and documented by the survey?

                          •  You degrade us all...have a great life...n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 02:21:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  One wonders (0+ / 0-)

                            why you even bothered to weigh in with so little to contribute to the discussion.

                            Next time, do your homework and stay on topic.

                            Let's see:

                            Thinks 108k DGUs is the 'final answer': wrong
                            Thinks each DGU is a life saved: wrong
                            Thinks homicide rate isn't related to gun availability: wrong

                            Can't answer what a DGU is when no threat or attack is present, can't justify or even comment regarding a potential 50% false positive rate for self-reported surveys.

                            When confronted with data, even data from a Kleck DGU study, you fall back on a meaningless hit-and-run insult.

                            Have a great life, indeed. Just know that if you, or any of your RKBA buddies keep peddling this survey bullshit as 'factual', I'll slap you down each time I see it.

                          •  I've done my homework..."Buddy"! (0+ / 0-)

                            It's this "theoretical math problem" you're attempting to push off as legitimate conversation that has me disgusted.

                            I think that when you boil things down to numbers, we humans become mere thanks, I'm not a number on your computer screen.

                            I don't care what YOUR numbers are.  MY "homework" was living to argue with you about the 2nd Amendment 40+ yrs later!

                            A gun saved FOUR lives that day.  I could give a flying rats ass if they never saved a life before or after. At the moment I needed superior force, it was within arms reach and saved my life.

                            And you haven't slapped anything down here buster!  YOU have proven beyond a doubt that life is just a numbers game to you to be argued anonymously on the "intertubes"...

                            Have fun with that...I'm not here to play games.

                            108.000 live per year have been saved, AT A MINIMUM, through the exercise of the "Right To Keep And Bear Arms".

                            As for this garbage:

                            Can't answer what a DGU is when no threat or attack is present,
                            Impossible to know without self-reporting/admission to criminal intent.

                            This leads us to this propaganda:

                            50% false positive rate for self-reported surveys.
                            So, wise master sir, does this mean those "survey's" our gov't uses...just like "The National Crime Victimization Survey" is invalid as well?

                            You can't have it both ways baby.  Your "math argument" fails yet again.

                            You need to find a better argument.

                            And you couldn't answer my simple questions and yet assail me for answering yours....

                            What if just 1 life was saved?

                            What if that 1 life was yours?

                            Would the numbers matter then???

                            OH, and wasn't your demand that we whom uprated the posting, give our reason(s)????

                            Shit, had I known you would refuse the answer because it didn't fit your agenda, then I wouldn't have wasted my time.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 06:13:35 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Theoretical math? (0+ / 0-)

                            Methinks you don't know what the word theoretical actually means.

                            The numbers in the external validation calculations are vetted against actual reported reality, not extrapolations from 56 people in a survey, and therefore much less uncertain than any of the self-reported surveys.

                            A gun saved FOUR lives that day.  I could give a flying rats ass if they never saved a life before or after. At the moment I needed superior force, it was within arms reach and saved my life.
                            And how many has a gun killed since then? Ah right, you 'could give a flying rats ass'. Also known as the: don't give a shit about anyone but myself defense.

                            Your four lives are important to you, everyone gets that. The thousands who have died from gun violence since then have been important to others, just as much. You may think I'm 'minimizing' your experience and the four saved lives, but you are doing the same to many tens of thousands more.

                            108.000 live per year have been saved, AT A MINIMUM, through the exercise of the "Right To Keep And Bear Arms".
                            BULLSHIT. 100% That is a self-reported survey that doesn't include the error bars, confidence intervals, or any statistical measures of accuracy. It also fails the 3 external validations, the statistical p value test linked further down, and the 'smell test' in the complete and utter dearth of 'DGU saved my life' stories that gun rights advocates would be publishing all over the web, to the tune of and expected 300 PER DAY. Where are they? chirping crickets

                            Your disregard of math and external validation does not give you the right to claim things that just aren't true.

                            With regard to a DGU when no threat is present, I'm not asking you to validate each one of those in the survey, I'm asking you to provide an example of a justifiable DGU when no threat is present. Give an example, that's all. Explain how one can 'defensively' use a gun when there is no threat to defend against.

                            So, wise master sir, does this mean those "survey's" our gov't uses...just like "The National Crime Victimization Survey" is invalid as well?
                            If they are self-reported surveys with a low incidence value, then absolutely they suffer the same problems with false positives, see here:


                            You can't have it both ways baby.  Your "math argument" fails yet again.

                            You need to find a better argument.

                            Laughable. You don't even appear to understand the math well enough to critique it. Just bury your head in the sand. Do you need me to explain the relevance of the statistical p-value link posted above? I hope not since it has the good fortune of including a DGU example as well as others.

                            Answer these?

                            What if just 1 life was saved?
                            What if that 1 life was yours?

                            Would the numbers matter then???

                            Seriously? You're falling back on emotional appeals to make your argument? I didn't answer before because transparently emotional appeals are a pretty fucking stupid way to debate policy, but sure, I'll answer. Of course it would matter to me, just like it matters to the few thousand lives saved each year from DGU. But there are many things that matter to me that shouldn't necessarily be implemented as policy.

                            But then, the argument is just as easy to turn on you, as all emotional appeals are: would it matter to you if you or your family were gunned down by someone who would have been denied a gun with a background check?

                            Do you think it matters to the friends and family of the thousands of people killed each year by gun violence?

                            When it comes to policy, do you really think we should fall back on emotional appeals, because that sure sounds like a piss-poor way to run a country to me.

                            Shit, had I known you would refuse the answer because it didn't fit your agenda, then I wouldn't have wasted my time.
                            Refuse to answer? There are 3 external validations still waiting your critiques. You can add to that the issues with false positives and p value for low incidence occurrences in the link above.

                            You've got a lot of work to do before you get the privilege of saying I've 'refused to answer' your questions. Especially when one of your responses was an pathetic attempt at a zero-content pithy one-liner insult.

                            Yes, I 'demanded', or rather asked that you justify yourself. But I asked specifically to justify your uprate of the 100% incorrect math of that response.

                            If math and statistics just isn't your thing, just say so and go find less numerical discussions.

                          •  Your argument fails in some logic... (0+ / 0-)
                            And how many has a gun killed since then? Ah right, you 'could give a flying rats ass'. Also known as the: don't give a shit about anyone but myself defense.
                            The question should be:

                            How many has THAT gun killed before or since?

                            Zero, would be the the way.

                            I truly care that all whom need (or want) a tool, have it, if they so desire.

                            It's that simple.  That tool, if used incorrectly can maim and kill.  It can also intentionally kill.  It's up to the person holding it that matters, NOT the item they're holding.

                            Huge difference.  I want as many people as possible to have a many tomorrows as life grants them.  I don't want or need to know "the numbers"...really.   I know too many people are dying from violence, including gun do we become less violent?

                            Teach our children non-violent dispute resolution, teach them how to think critically and logically.

                            If you ban "X"...they'll start using "Y"...wash, rinse, repeat until anything and everything one can use to hurt another is banned...TEACH the person to be non-violent and poof...problem solved!

                            This is why your math is leads to false solutions that will do nothing to stop violence.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:08:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  A more polite reply (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            and possible solution to our disagreement.

                            That 108,000 DGU/year number is from 1994 statistics.

                            All of my external validations are using current ~2012-2013 values (justifiable homicides and violent crime rate).

                            According to the DoJ, current crime rates are 1/3 of what they were in 1994.


                            It seems likely that DGUs should scale with violent crime rate, so 108,000 DGUs in 1994 would equate to 36,000 DGUs annually in present day.

                            This number is exactly in the ball park of my external validation calculations.

                            It seems we may have less to argue about then we thought.

                          •  Not sure if I follow the logical progression here (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            If DGU's were at 108,000 or 10x the murder rate...then it should mirror today...gun homicides have gone down by 49%...meaning the DGU's...if accurate should be closer to 54,000.


                            The new study found U.S. firearm homicides peaked in 1993 at 7.0 deaths per 100,000 people. But by 2010, the rate was 49% lower, and firearm-related violence -- assaults, robberies, sex crimes -- was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993, the study found.
                            What's not included or weighted in this analysis is the massive increase in firearm ownership over this same period.

                            We went from 194 million to over 310 million.  From 40% ownership to 47%...that's a huge increase.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:17:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  DGUs are not just about homicides (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            they are primarily about preventing violent crimes and property crimes, such as burglaries, robberies, and assaults. At least according to the surveys.

                            As such, they should mirror the overall reduction in all violent crime, rather than specifically homicides.

                            And, since DGUs don't necessarily depend on the 'attacker' having a gun, we wouldn't necessarily expect it to drop by the full 75% decline in firearm-related violence, but again by the average overall violent crime rate reduction.

                            Here's a good document of the various crime prevalence rates, and their decline.


                            In general, if you include both violent crime and also property crime rates (burglaries and other crimes that could also invoke a DGU), an average reduction in prevalence of ~2/3rds is about right.

                            That's a good point about the increase in gun ownership as well. That's about a 20% increase which could boost the DGU numbers proportionally. However, the number of households with guns has declined from 45.5% to 34.4%, about a 25% reduction, which would proportionally lower DGUs for things like burglaries and 'on-property' violent crime.


                          •  These statistics are still only based on (0+ / 0-)

                            self-reporting.  How do we overcome this inherent flaw?

                            Is someone going to admit on a phone survey that they have/own a gun illegally or have used a gun they didn't register to defend themselves?

                            Surely not and this problem will become even more nefarious with the revelations of the crimes of the NSA.  Nobody in their right mind will be admitting that over the phone, in fact, I'd wager, they'd outright lie about firearm ownership now.

                            As an example of these flaws in all these "models", in the 50 yrs or so that I've been alive, just this past week I was called for a "pew research survey".

                            Once in my entire life.

                            Then we have sample size, time of day called, location-rural or urban, age, sex, education of person getting call, etc.

                            It's like the numbers the DOL puts out for unemployment.  Why is it based on surveys?  How about we get the information directly from the Social Security Administration?  We'd know instantly how many people are working and how many aren't.  We'd know their age, their sex, the marital status, the State they reside in, hell we'd know if they were working fulltime or parttime even, we'd know their estimated yearly income, etc...etc...etc...

                            I know people love to quantify things, I do it all the time myself...but is that truly going to help anyone?  Nope, it's going to give our Politicians BS to spread that their doing something.

                            How many jobs did the now permanent Bush Tax Breaks create?

                            How many are they creating today?

                            I think we both know the answer to that, we don't need a survey to tell us.

                            What I find in consistent with the number of homes with firearms reported is the simple fact the FBI's NICS system has had record setting requests, year after year for almost a decade.  Its currently at a 45.7% increase.

                            I do not believe for a moment that firearm ownership has gone down like it's been claimed.  I have FEMALE co-workers whom are getting permits AND guns.  20 yrs ago, no one ever talked about self defense or even owning a firearm.  You didn't talk about guns, ever.  Not here in New York anyways.  

                            Here in Buffalo, there's been some very disturbing home invasions and violence on a scale rarely seen.

                            How many people are going to "opt out" of our legal permitting requirements and own a weapon anyways?

                            "Better to be tried by 12 than buried by 6", right?

                            Which leads me to even question the claims violence has gone down.  Adrian Schoolcraft's whistleblowing revealed that the police numbers are mostly fabrications, intentionally so, to get federal funding.

                            I know from firsthand experiences here in Buffalo, the police don't want to take a report when you call them.  My apartment was broken into and when I found the mess, I promptly called them.  The "police officer" asked me if I really wanted to file a report.  Are you freaking serious?  And I asked that!  They then asked me, "Why are you going to report it to your insurance company?"  I said I didn't have an insurance company. Their reply, "Well there's no point in filing the report then."

                            I was furious!  

                            But hey, this is the reality I see and exist in...the numbers lie.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 01:55:02 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look at the charts (0+ / 0-)


                            Personally, I believe the data from the General Social Survey a bit more than Gallop because it's been tracked longer, shows a smoother function, and also includes individual ownership rates.

                            The Gallop survey is far too 'noisy', indicating that it's error bars are likely much larger.

                            Are we really to believe that between 1994 and 1996 more than 25% of gun-owning households gave them up? Or that 30 million more households had guns 6 months later? Unlikely.

                            Furthermore, that 40% to 47% increase that you stated apparently uses data from the wrong year. 1994, the year from the survey, was at 54% household ownership according to Gallop.

                            But your critiques regarding self-reported surveys are related to what I've been insisting all along. You simply can't trust them to report accurate numbers when it comes to things like gun violence because false positives and false negatives will blow your statistical uncertainties out of the water.

                            That's why I insist that external validation be used to provide a consistency check for any of these surveys. This consistency check just happens to provide a range (~10-60k) that is compatible with the 108k number properly scaled to modern crime and gun ownership rates.

                            That doesn't mean the final scaled number, ~36k, is completely accurate, it could easily be off by 50% in either direction. But it provides a good ballpark number that reasonably compares to non-survey based estimations.

                            The reason that the household and individual ownership rates are declining as the NICS rates increases is pretty easy to explain. People who already owned guns bought more. Given the rhetoric around Obama's election, reelection, as well as the gun control talk surrounding the various mass shootings, this is an obvious result considering it was gun owners and NRA members that were panicking.

                            We already have surveys that directly measure firearm ownership rates, and those charts are linked above, and I have no reason to believe that people were more likely to lie about ownership in 2012 compared to 1994, nor that illegal ownership is more likely in 2012 compared to 1994. In fact, considering the overall reduction in crime and gun related violence, it's likely that illegal gun ownership has significantly declined since 1994, which would further reduce the scaled DGU number. But that's difficult to quantify.

                            Your personal experience may, or may not accurately reflect overall trends in Buffalo, NY. But just like climate change, local conditions aren't necessarily indicative of the global picture, especially when we already have measurements that contradict your anecdotal evidence.

                          •  Thanks for honest conversation. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            How do we get "external validation" for self-reporting?

                            I do understand the difference between "global" and "local', but the leaks are finally surfacing when it comes to the books being cooked for crime stats, not just here in Buffalo but more importantly in our large metro areas, like NYC.

                            Retired Police: NY Crime Stats Manipulated, Fabricated

                            a survey of more than one hundred retired NYPD higher-ups showed that cops—who are under constant pressure to produce happy-looking stats—have routinely fabricated or manipulated their data, since the crime analysis system was put into place in 1995.
                            What's even more disturbing is that many Police Captains, etc from these larger areas are offered very lucrative jobs in other States...spreading their "business", so to speak, elsewhere.  Small municipalities having crime rates going up, will spend a small fortune to get someone "whom can bring results".  How much is truly intentional fabrication or "muscling"victims to remain silent, like I was or an actual drop in crime due to good "policing"?

                            I know it would counter the RKBA stance that violence is going down while gun ownership is going up...but I seriously have no faith that we're being told the truth.

                            Cutbacks force police to curtail calls for some crimes

                            Chicago Police No Longer Respond To Lesser Crimes

                            These developments must be brought into any analysis.  If we stop counting "lesser crimes" and are not reporting the ones that do happen, accurately...then where are we?

                            No further ahead in anything.  

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 03:08:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Two nights ago, the dog went off on it's own. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tom Seaview, gerrilea

                            Thank DOG no one died.

                            Just a little after 1:30am, our mid-sized, wannabe Rottweiler started barking.  
                            (I'ze teh same colors as a Rotty, so I'ze must be one)

                            I woke from the couch, "watching the Olympics", which is right by the door.
                            I observed a male of indeterminate age, trying to break into our car, by beating on the window.
                            I opened the door, and he ran-off, out of the parking lot.

                            From experience, I didn't bother to call the police.

                            a) no crime was committed in their eyes.
                            Criminal Trespass on Posted property?  Sure, but not enough to send a car.

                            b) no item of value was damaged or taken.  Only an attempt.
                            Not enough to send a car, or take a report.

                            c) No positive ID of the suspect was made.  Parka, knit hat, gloves. 100% match for everyone in the state.
                            Not enough to send a car... or take a report.

                            Was this a Defensive Dog Use?
                            Was anyone bitten?  IF not, it's an bullshit DDU.

                            Did the dog discharge, endangering the community?
                            Should my Right to Keep and Feed Dogs, be restricted due to my inability to produce a blood-soaked pant leg?
                            The Police would certainly take your dog if there WAS a blood-soaked pant leg.

                            Shouldn't civilian possession of dogs be restricted or banned outright?  
                            As I an incapable of saying that I'm 100% certain, by continual observation, that my spouse didn't in-concert, or by malice, obtain property with, or from that person.
                            Leaving that property in her car, isn't this person a likely victim, not a perpetrator?

                            Did my dog, by barking, cause undue psychological harm to my neighbors, or this person? (who may of course be innocent, while my spouse is guilty)

                            Isn't the presence of a dog in the house 88 times more likely to injure or kill one of your own family?

                            Shouldn't I surrender my dog to the authorities?

                            I should I contact a victim advocacy in town, and see if anyone reported being victimized by a dog and owner at 1:30am on Wednesday?

                            Isn't it time?  
                            Isn't it long past time we removed these dogs from the home?

                            Trained dogs and trained owners belong in the Police Department ONLY.

                            I'M calling Senator Feinstein.  Enough is enough.
                            We need an executive order... and a repeal of the Right to Keep and Feed Dogs.

                            Next:  Ferrets.

                •  Tell it to these folks (0+ / 0-)


                  Obviously ALL of them are child killers. All of them are "bad guys with guns" because there are no good guys with guns., because there is no such thing.

                  Man, a2nite is quite possibly the most brilliant bulbs in the antigun echo chamber. After all, there is no possibility in the known universe that a2nite could be, um, er, wrong about anything at all. Wow. Just wow.

              •  packs concealed (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Glen The Plumber

                Doesn't seem to be fond of open carry. He says it violates his privacy rights.

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 06:54:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  What do you suggest... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber, skeptigal

          ...for making ladder shows safer?

        •  Posting such cherry picked statistics is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          absolutely reprehensible.  What a fucking load of crap.  Tens of thousands die yearly from gun violence in this country.  Two thirds of all homicides in the US involve guns.  The numbers involving ladders are negligible.

      •  Even non-idiots (0+ / 0-)

        can be overcome by road rage and complacency with safety practices.

        Familiarity breeds contempt.  Hang out next to a gorilla for long enough and you forget it can beat you to death in a heartbeat.

        First they came for the slippery-slope fallacists, and I said nothing. The End.

        by Cream Puff on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 05:53:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Go for it, nate. I'll support such an effort. nt (5+ / 0-)
    •  anytime you guys? (5+ / 0-)

      The NRA and responsible gun owners like yourself, should be full-throated leading the pack on such an clearly needed initiative. You want to protect your rights, take charge.

      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

      by fcvaguy on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 06:50:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Any such campaign needs to include mandatory (0+ / 0-)

      training (and retraining), enforcement of storage standards, and registration.

    •  Safe firearms handling practices (0+ / 0-)

      are great for those whose activities require them to carry a firearm.  

      As any construction safety officer will tell you, the best way to keep safe is to eliminate the source of the danger.  In this case, the gun.

      This series has repeatedly shown that the most highly trained gun-carrying professionals can and do get involved in these accidents despite their extensive safety training.

      It doesn't take abstract theorizing to show that by far the greatest safety risk factor in all these incidents is the mere presence of devices designed for driving metal slugs at lethal velocities through human organs.

      First they came for the slippery-slope fallacists, and I said nothing. The End.

      by Cream Puff on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 05:51:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks, David (8+ / 0-)

    *sigh* "Only" nine children accidentally wounded by guns, in a slow week, the youngest age 3.

    nine children accidentally wounded by gunfire, ages 3, 4, 8, 8, 8, 16, 17, 17 and 17.
    Too bad they're not being protected by the good-guy gun-owners in their lives.
  •  Oklahoma 8 year-old kills accidentally himself (8+ / 0-)

    ..with his own .22 pistol?

    Since when do 8 year-olds pack heat?

    Bizarro World.

    Dear future generations: Please accept our apologies, We were roaring drunk on petroleum -Kurt Vonnegut

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 01:10:53 PM PST

  •  Only one per month? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fcvaguy, FrankRose

    That's amazing. It'll be hard to get that much lower.

    I'm very pleased to see that safety is such a priority at gun shows, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

  •  Gun shows have had a good winter. Could it be (5+ / 0-)

    because of the number of gun show cancellations this snowy southern winter?

    Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

    by 88kathy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 01:25:44 PM PST

  •  They're not accidents but negligence (6+ / 0-)

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 01:26:52 PM PST

  •  Thank you, David. (6+ / 0-)

    29 of the 38 incidents were described as accidents.  We should call these incidents what they are: negligence.

    For the sake of even-handedness, we should also acknowledge defensive gun uses.  There's a handy compendium at  One has been added since the last time I looked, so now there are five for the month of February.

  •  Gun deaths (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I am rather confused. If we are going to rationally and equally address issues.
    I realize guns are not as necessary as vehicles. here and now.
    However, I have lived in places where I would rather be without mechanized transportation (and have been) than without a firearm.
    And while this seems to be a big deal to some, "the first firearm death at a gun show this year"!
    But automobile deaths are approaching 5000? And this is what; OK, Cool, unavoidable, the price of personal transportation?
    Maybe a little bit wider net should be cast, if we are going to actually help prevent accidental deaths?

  •  Thank you and Peace to you, David Waldman. n/t (5+ / 0-)
  •  I thought guns didn't go off by themselves. (4+ / 0-)

    You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

    by Cartoon Peril on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 04:43:49 AM PST

  •  So many incidences with minors (3+ / 0-)

    At least one ending in a tragic fatality. Where's the accountability in these incidences? These are not accidents. These are crimes; reckless endangerment by the adults in charge of the minors, allowing them easy access to what appears to be completely unsecured weapons.

    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

    by fcvaguy on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 06:49:16 AM PST

  •  BikeFAIL (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Accidental deaths on bicycles: 677
    Accidental deaths from firearms: 600

    Accidental death from motor vehicle: 42,000

    Accidental death from poisoning: 39,000

    Accidental death from falls: 25,000

    Accidental death from fire: 2,700

    Accidental death from choking: 2,500

    Accidental deaths from drowning: 2,000

    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

    by FrankRose on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 10:35:10 AM PST

  •  So the gun show operator asks everyone to disable (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, Laconic Lib

    their guns. Doesn't seem like they much  believe in the 'more guns= more safety' theory. But loaded guns in school is perfectly fine though.

  •  In each case, substitute a rubber ducky... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wader, akmk, jan4insight, PsychoSavannah

    for the gun, and little or nothing would have happened.


    Ugh. --UB.

    "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Randian Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of West Dakota!"

    by unclebucky on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 04:22:38 PM PST

    •  Or, substitute cars, computers, home improvement (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PsychoSavannah, unclebucky

      Other types of common shows where nobody gets hurt due to the nature of the merchandise on display.

      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

      by wader on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 05:28:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  A lot of things, like toaster ovens, too... (0+ / 0-)

        I took off my shoes after the 2007 fµckup.

        We're all Bozos on this Bus anymore....

        Ugh. --UB.

        "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Randian Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of West Dakota!"

        by unclebucky on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 08:44:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Jaw-dropping as usual, David, particularly the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenearth, PsychoSavannah

    lack of response of law enforcement in most instances.

    Send an 8-year old across the ice with a loaded gun???

  •  I have a happy-outcome gunfail (6+ / 0-)

    For.several weeks my neighbor has been target shooting with a small calibre rifle and a huge revolver. I asked a neighbor who knows him to talk to him: he presented a concealed carry license and said he can shoot whenever and wherever he pleases.

    This is a dense inner-city with tow houses and apartments.

    It turned out that he CAN shoot whenever and wherever he wants, but I had multiple discussions with sergeants at the local PD, and they were outraged at the recklessness and really wanted to confront the shooter. But I wanted to avoid confrontation. Monday, though, two little girls were walking through my yard and I told them that they were heading into a shooting range: I realized then I had to give the pd the go ahead to come out.

    The pd said that they are forbidden from telling people they can't shoot, but that they can definitely talk to people and that I absolutely should call if someone is shooting in the City.

    Anyway: I got a message that the neighbor will go to the country to shoot from now on.

    “liberals are the people who think that cruelty is the worst thing that we do” --Richard Rorty Also, I moved from NYC, so my username is inaccurate.

    by jeff in nyc on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 04:39:50 PM PST

    •  Calling BS on this one - the Cops, not You (0+ / 0-)

      A CCP is not a license to shoot anywhere. The police officers were either lazy, ignorant or both. Reckless use is more than enough grounds o have the concealed carry permit revoked. Call the mayor's office and if that fails the state AG. Get those cops fired.

      Good idea not to confront the guy with the gun yourself.

      "I may not understand what you say, but I'll defend to your death my right to deny it" - Albert Alligator, Pogo by Walt Kelly

      by RightWingLefty on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 07:41:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are misinformed: (0+ / 0-)

        The guy who produced his concealed permit was wrong that the permit gives him any right to shoot, but he is right under my state law that he can shoot anywhere including the city.

        The permit is not relevant.

        “liberals are the people who think that cruelty is the worst thing that we do” --Richard Rorty Also, I moved from NYC, so my username is inaccurate.

        by jeff in nyc on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 08:24:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Btw, if any of you question my story, please (0+ / 0-)

          Respond here, so I know. I am called a liar only at dkos, and only about guns.

          “liberals are the people who think that cruelty is the worst thing that we do” --Richard Rorty Also, I moved from NYC, so my username is inaccurate.

          by jeff in nyc on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 08:30:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Top Middle Pistol Is A "Tip-Up" Barrel Automatic (0+ / 0-)

    Probably a .22 - the barrel can be lifted to load or unload the first round.  I believe this is for women or people with weaker hands that can't rack the slide to chamber the first round.

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 06:03:47 PM PST

    •  Great for Kids (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      It's a Taurus PT22 a copy of the Beretta 21 or 950. It's  a blow back design and has a heavy spring. Yes, tip-up barrels make it easy for small, weak hands to load it. Easy and fun for kids of all ages.

      "I may not understand what you say, but I'll defend to your death my right to deny it" - Albert Alligator, Pogo by Walt Kelly

      by RightWingLefty on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 07:32:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Shoot-em-up (0+ / 0-)

    The human foot appears to be the natural prey of the unloaded gun.

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

    by shoeguy on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 07:48:32 PM PST

  •  a bullet past my head (0+ / 0-)

    We live in a rural area where guns are the norm. It's a rare day that you don't hear shooting in the vicinity. We overlook a lake and used to be scared that during goose-hunting season a bullet would blast through our window (we have what we call a wall o' windows looking east).

    Before our house was even built, we were out making a garden one day when shots rang out and I had the terrifying experience--as did my spouse--of hearing the whine of a bullet going past my head. Not a sound I'd ever wanted to hear.

    My spouse went to a couple of the neighbors and found the guy who'd been idly shooting off a gun. He got belligerent and said he had the right to shoot in his own back yard. No apologies, no apparent horror that he'd nearly killed us, nothing.

    We barely go outdoors during deerhunting season and if we do wear bright orange hats and vests. I hate it.

  •  Theoretical question... (0+ / 0-)

    Forget the fact that it is political suicide.  Who here would be in favor of repealing the Second Amendment?

    I understand the original intent and all but other, freer countries (Canada, UK, Australia to name a few) don't need it.

    First they came for the slippery-slope fallacists, and I said nothing. The End.

    by Cream Puff on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 06:03:18 AM PST

  •  Here's a great resource (0+ / 0-)

    For those who need facts and figures to refute the gun humpers.

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