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You may call this a step backwards, but some folks think of it as a great leap forward.
A bill introduced by a Wichita lawmaker would ease some restrictions on spanking in Kansas, allowing parents, caregivers or school officials to hit children hard enough to leave redness or bruising.

Rep. Gail Finney, D-Wichita, who introduced the bill, said it attempts to define corporal punishment, restore parental rights and protect parents who spank their children from being charged with child abuse.

“What’s happening is there are some children that are very defiant and they’re not minding their parents, they’re not minding school personnel,” Finney said Tuesday. [...]

The bill would allow parents to give permission to others, including school officials, to spank their children, including students over 18 who are enrolled in high school.

It goes without saying that local school officials should be allowed to beat your kids, you see; we're just clarifying how much they can beat them. Hard enough to cause bruising, but that's it. And only with a permission slip. Progress!

Originally posted to Hunter on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 10:37 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I am very busy today (7+ / 0-)

    Can someone who has read the bill send me a Kosmail if it turns out that I am the one that is supposed to beat your children.

    I appreciate the heads-up!

    Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

    by Wisper on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 10:44:22 AM PST

  •  Violence is not an acceptable way to (8+ / 0-)

    teach a child.

    Violence only teaches violence.

    This better be good. Because it is not going away.

    by DerAmi on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 10:44:55 AM PST

    •  christian schools (16+ / 0-)

      When I was a kid, I spent some time in mainline christian child care and schools.  What I noticed is that the only way these places could deal with problems was violence.  A child could not sleep, beat them.  A child wrote on the walls, beat them.

      It is very difficult for a teacher to model peaceful conflict regulations.  It might be that some drama might be necessary to get a child attentions.  For a child over five, words are almost always sufficient to get attention.  For younger children some physical contact may be necessary, but nothing that would leave an injury.

      Such a thing is, however, a skill.  Peaceful redirection is a skill. Explain why a behavior is wrong and explaining appropriate behavior is a skill.  Think of authentic punishments is a skill.  Building respect and rapport is skill.

      Beating someone sense is not a skill.  It does not teach proper behavior.  It only teaches fear.  I will pretend to learn not because I respect what you are teaching, but because I am afraid.  No learning is going on when one is afraid.

      But mainline Christians do live on fear, don't they.  We worship an almighty not because it helps us lead better more compassionate lives, but because we are afraid of being smitted if we don't.

      •  Mainline? (6+ / 0-)

        This sounds like something a lot more Evangelical or Fundamentalist.  I don't think most mainline churches would condone this; in fact if they spoke out at all it would likely be to condemn the practice.

        •  Around here they are "mainline". (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aunt Pat, GAKeynesian, ladybug53

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          Who is twigg?

          by twigg on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:54:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you sure you understsnd the topic? (0+ / 0-)

            All that is being discussed are the absolutely ludicrous and really dumb public statements by the right-wingers and are being answered in the most simplistic terms because of their inability of those who make these public political statements to comprehend what actually came out of their mouths as their spoken words.

            You want our responses to go over their heads?

        •  It would depend on the year and country. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GAKeynesian, RUKind


          Episcopalian boarding schools, for example, had a reputation for not sparing the rod.  If you were a Native American at a church-run boarding school until quite recently, you would be lucky if you were merely beaten on slight pretexts.

           

          "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

          by Yamaneko2 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:02:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I grew up in a system in which children (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tool

        were terrorized daily. The thing about terror is that it is most effective when it is most random. I was beaten for breaking the rules, or for not knowing the rules, and sometimes because the adult in question just felt like it. I was beaten by my mother. I was beaten by teachers and by other students. I have, despite this terrorism, managed to live a fairly productive life and I didn't suffer as much as some, but it enrages me to think of a child being beaten.

        Voting is the means by which the public is distracted from the realities of power and its exercise.

        by Anne Elk on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 01:36:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  yes (0+ / 0-)

        I was hit by a teacher in a Christian school. On two different occasions. One time did not hurt.  The second time was an assault.

        "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness," Allen Ginsberg

        by Hermenutic on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 02:03:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, but there *are* rare occasions for corporal (0+ / 0-)

        punishment.

        When a child does something that is imminently dangerous, such as running into a busy street. When a child is fighting with a sibling and tries to club said sibling over the head with a hard object, etc.

        As I said, rare. Immediate action that brooks no dispute.
        The rest does require redirection.

        But, leaving welts and bruises isn't a correction, it is violence and inflicting injury. That is not, by definition any form of correction, it is battery.
        Now, if a state law supports that, I also hope that that same state has laws to support my disagreeing in kind to such an abusive adult by striking them repeatedly with a fire hydrant.*

        *Had to use fire hydrant, as GM got after me for using Buick...  ;)

      •  Discipline and Disciples (0+ / 0-)

        Many people forget that Discipline refers to teaching. Jesus did not beat his Disciples, he taught them.

        Many Xtian groups hear "spare the rod" and forget that the rod was the shepherd's rod, not used to beat the sheep, but to guide them.

        Good thing I already thought Kansas was a bit of a hole.

        I wonder how these parents would feel if the teachers slapped them hard enough to bruise? File assault charges much? Or the DV shelters who now have to nuance "It's never OK to hit your wife" to "It's never OK to hit your wife unless she is a minor, or does not listen to school personnel, or is very defiant'"

        False equivalency? Not necessarily. This law opens a big door for a great leap backward, to paraphrase the original post. If a Kansas criminal attorney were defending a wife beater, I bet he might say to the jury "It's nothing worse than what a teacher can do to a child..."

      •  I dunno... (0+ / 0-)

        What do you recommend when a child refuses to obey?

        Time out?

        The child refuses to obey.

        A lecture?

        The child refuses to obey.

        Negotiate a contract with the kid, with him promising to obey and you promising some bribe or another?

        The child refuses to obey.

        Physically restrain him when he's doing something harmful to himself or others?  

        But what about the times he moves too fast, such as dumping McDonald's ketchup packages all over your computer keyboard because you told him he couldn't play on the computer until after his homework was done?  

        What about the time he grabs your glass and pulls the earpieces apart so that they're unwearable - and you can hardly see without them?  

        What about the time he throws a full cola can (that you told him he couldn't have) at you because you wouldn't let him eat all his Halloween candy at once?  

        What about the time... and so on.

        If a child figures out that there's nothing you will do to him if he doesn't mind, why, then, he doesn't mind.  After all, every single human being on the face of this faltering planet wants his own way whenever he can get it.   Most of us are willing to add the caveat that we only want our own way when no person or property is damaged (that we know of or are willing to acknowledge, anyway).  So what do you do with a child who refuses to obey?  

        The child I'm speaking of was eventually placed (by the time he was eight) into a residential treatment center, where the staff are allowed to physically restrain him to keep him from hurting others or himself.  I don't know where he is today.  Thank goodness.

        But what do you do when a child will not obey?

        •  You answered your own question. (0+ / 0-)

          When you can't solve the problem with resources at hand, you escalate it.  Evidently, you were dealing with a child who did not belong in a classroom at all.  And eventually, you, or someone to whom you escalated the problem, moved the kid out of the classroom and into a more suitable environment.

          Most of the kids who would be beaten under this proposed law would not be juvenile sociopaths like the one you describe.  BTW, such an approach to "education" is hardly new.  Read Dickens.  Read anything about life in 19th and 20th century English "public" schools.  It's no wonder there are only 22 countries in the world that have never been invaded by the English.  Violence does indeed breed violence.

        •  Why does the child not 'obey'? (0+ / 0-)

          What is the history of this child. Do you even know. Without knowing that, how can you begin to speculate on how to treat such a child?

          Beating a child into submission does not seem like such a great idea to me. How often does this backfire? Have you considered that perhaps the reason the child is rebellious is because he is tired of being beaten and now has no respect for authority? Have you considered that beating a child is teaching the child that in order to get what he wants all he need do is beat somebody?

          I know that when I was a child, all a beating did was make me want to get revenge, and hate the person doing the beating.

          There are other and, I believe, better ways to deal with the child than to beat him or her. I believe in the long run the simplistic answer, to beat the child, does not achieved the desired result and could quite possibly make things much worse.

          I was reared by Christian parents who solution to every situation was a beating. I did not beat my child. I believe I had better results than my parents.

          There are no simple answers here, but without knowing the background of the child, it could be very easy to make things much worse.

    •  Rep. Gail Finney is what passes for a (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt, Naniboujou, wintergreen8694, zmom

      Democrat in Kansas?  Lordy, lordy.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 11:09:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I would have to disagree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Terry S

      I received a multitude of spanks growing up, and I am violently peaceful.  In a way, spankings turned my off of violence towards others (I still enjoy it in games, media, and books), probably thanks to an understanding of how it feels to receive pain.  It is, in a way, a reaffirmation of the golden rule: Do unto others as they would do unto you/what you would have them do unto you (yes, there's two versions, meaning slightly different things).

      Kids that don't get a spanking for being bad don't learn what it is like to have someone hurting them, and therefore have nothing to base on what it means to cause physical harm to another.  Their baseline is probably a cartoon, and that can lead them to associate that harming someone is funny.  I have heard kids make the excuse after hurting another kid that it was "funny when they did it on tv."

      Now, I am aware that there should definitely be a limit on physically punishing children.  There's a difference between a beating and a spanking, and I think no child should suffer a beating.  Three swats on the rear ought to be enough for any child to have some sense knocked into them.

      •  I don't think so! (0+ / 0-)

        Any person putting hands on my child  to discipline them would need to watch their back because I'd be coming for them big time (I don't care if there is a law allowing it)and I am a mother. The child that is acting out either doesn't understand what they have done, or, depending on the age you have other options, and hitting them should never be one of them. A parents frustration at the moment is NEVER an excuse for hitting a much smaller and helpless child, I'm sorry but might never makes right. Violence teaches a child one thing only and that is the only way to handle any conflict is with violence. A parents main job is to teach a child how to live peacefully in society not teaching them to beat on someone even if that someone is weaker than they are, a lot of  people in prison turn out to have had horrendous childhoods where beatings were the norm and the only thing that taught them is if someone doesn't do what you want or disagrees with you, hit them..

      •  Sorry, but it's not necessary to hit a child (0+ / 0-)

        for them to learn what pain feels like or that it's not a nice thing so you shouldn't inflict it on other people.

        We NEVER spanked or slapped or otherwise physically punished our daughter.  Not once.  

        We used time-outs instead and, when she grew older, grounding.  The thing with us, though?  We didn't have rules about every little thing, bur we enforced the rules we did have.  If she was grounded, then she was grounded...no exceptions.  And she knew what she was grounded for...and knew in advance.

        Yes, that meant that one of us would be "grounded" as well.  And her friends all thought...at first...that we'd be like most parents and not enforce the punishment.  

        It didn't take our daughter (and her friends :-) long to learn that we really meant it...and for her to stop the behavior that got her into trouble in the first place.  As a result, she got to the point where there was no need to punish her anymore.  

        She's now a grandmother...and our family tradition of not hitting anyone has been passed to her kids and is now being passed to her grandkids.  

        What's also been passed on?  Things like standing up for someone being bullied.  Compassion and consideration for others.  Self-respect and respect for others.

        You can't "knock sense" into anyone...you can only knock it OUT of them.  

    •  I was spanked as a kid, it was very effective (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gordob

      the overall impression was that it was unpleasant for the spanker, & the spankee. To avoid such unpleasantness I shaped up pretty quick & quit doing stupid things.

      If corporations are people now, can we spank them, or allow others to spank them?

  •  the BTK Killer hasn't yet been asked for comment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan

    on these community standards proposals

    A bill introduced by a Wichita lawmaker would ease some restrictions on spanking in Kansas, allowing parents, caregivers or school officials to hit children hard enough to leave redness or bruising.

    Rep. Gail Finney, D-Wichita, who introduced the bill, said it attempts to define corporal punishment, restore parental rights and protect parents who spank their children from being charged with child abuse.

    “What’s happening is there are some children that are very defiant and they’re not minding their parents, they’re not minding school personnel,” Finney said Tuesday. [...]

    The bill would allow parents to give permission to others, including school officials, to spank their children, including students over 18 who are enrolled in high school.

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 10:48:11 AM PST

    •  That guy was/is a real sicko! Thank FSM they (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buckeye Nut Schell, Penny GC

      finally caught him, although I think he sorta gave himself away after all that time.  He horrified people for years and years and years.

      Victims                  10
      Span of killings       1974–1991

      "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

      by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 12:22:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Amazing! I congratulate you on being able to link (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Anne Elk

      the BTK torturer / murderer to the practice of spanking.

      That's a leap that even Superman couldn't top.

      The 1% are Purists: They only support Candidates that Deliver Results They Can Bank On. Don't they know they should compromise? /sarcasm

      by Johnathan Ivan on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:59:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Goes to show you that the nuts (7+ / 0-)

    aren't limited to the Republican party.

    Someone remind me never to take my kids to Kansas.  And Florida. And Arizona...

  •  And just this morning I was wondering how (3+ / 0-)

    hard I could hit children. Glad they're clearing it up in Kansas. Keep your hands off those kids, you bastards!

  •  You just can't beat our legislature here in Kansas (6+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately

  •  A black female Democrat. (4+ / 0-)

    in. Kansas.

    Lovely.

    What motivates these wackos?

  •  These are certainly dark days for KS but... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan

    Its Wichita - not Witchita.

    I think the KS legislature needs to scrap the season and start over next year.

  •  My state still has corporal punishment (3+ / 0-)

    in schools. It has pretty rigid protocols, but it still happens. Heard it discussed on the radio recently.

  •  I say (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buckeye Nut Schell, FarWestGirl

    put them in stocks if they misbehave, maybe even bring out the dunking stool if they are really recalcitrant.

    The world is a den of thieves and night is falling. -Ingmar Bergman

    by Pirogue on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 12:16:00 PM PST

  •  It isn't just "who" can beat your kids, but (7+ / 0-)

    "how hard" they can be beaten.  The law clarifies that bruises are perfectly OK.

    I'm uncertain as to whether the law includes a color chart.

    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

    by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 12:23:22 PM PST

  •  use a bag of oranges (0+ / 0-)

    No bruises, well the oranges get bruised. Tell Dudeman the party is over their-------------------->

    “He talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans.” James Carville

    by Mokislab on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 12:58:36 PM PST

  •  Finally a dumbshit Democrat n/t (0+ / 0-)

    “He talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans.” James Carville

    by Mokislab on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 01:03:35 PM PST

  •  Jack Straw from Witchita shot his buddy down (0+ / 0-)

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

    by enhydra lutris on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 01:18:16 PM PST

  •  And, for their next trip (3+ / 0-)

    in the Wayback Machine, the Kansas legislature will clarify that it's perfectly okay for husbands to "correct" their wives, as long as the thrashing is performed with a stick no thicker than a man's thumb (as in 17th Century England and English colonies, for those whose study of social history might have been slightly slighted in favor of more practical subjects).

  •  official seal of the kansas legislature (0+ / 0-)

    i'm now prepared to buy a belt with the official seal of the kansas legislature on it now that i have permission to to beat children in my care.  how do these lunatics even make it into office?

  •  By the way, did anyone see this under the (0+ / 0-)

    "we have gay neighbors" letter to Dear Abby:

    DEAR ABBY: I'm 14 and in high school. My father died in a car accident when I was 8. A man who attends my church took me under his wing and has been like a father to me ever since. He is very supportive most of the time. However, he spanks me with a belt when he feels I misbehave.

    My mom doesn't know about it because she works long hours to support the family. I like the nurturing and encouragement this man gives me, but I can't take another beating. What should I do? -- BLUE IN THE SOUTHWEST

    DEAR BLUE: What you are describing is a form of child abuse. This "nurturing" man has no right to hit you. You shouldn't have to tolerate being beaten in order to feel supported.

    Tell your mother what has been going on, or a teacher or a counselor at your school. You appear to be an intelligent young man. Your silence is what enables those beatings to continue, so please do not remain silent about this any longer.

    "a form of child abuse"???  It IS child abuse -- the very definition!

    What kind of sick creep from church mentors the child of a dead man so he can whip him with a belt?  That's insane.

    Someone needs to arrest the sick $#*( ASAP.

    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

    by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 07:08:41 PM PST

  •  It's sickening in this day and age (6+ / 0-)

    that beating kids is still considered okay by some, including an elected so-called Democrat.  

  •  Nope. Ritalin, that’s the ticket. n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  I am almost physically sick, this upsets me so (12+ / 0-)

    much.  I am absolutely sickened.  What kind of parents would ever allow someone else to hit their child?  Let alone, encourage someone else to hit their child?

    BTW, I have refused to use the word "spank" ever since I worked with with a remarkable young man who told me, "'Spank' is just a nice way to say 'hit'. "

    If you need to hit a child to get your way then you shouldn't work with kids. Period.    

    Somebody told me that you had a boyfriend who looked a girlfriend that I had in February of last year.

    by koosah on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:17:52 PM PST

    •  I also find it incredibly upsetting (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      koosah, Lying eyes, Elizaveta

      and sent Finney an email earlier this week telling her so.

    •  What if a child will not obey? (0+ / 0-)

      What if a child will not stop punching, kicking, pushing, and hitting his siblings?

      What if a child acts out in unacceptable ways when he doesn't get his way (for example, soiling his pants in school because he doesn't want to do the math assignment)?  Or throwing the Osterizer on the floor and shattering it because he wasn't allowed to make a milkshake for himself?

      What if a child will not do what he's told - and the mere fact that he's told to do something - or even asked with a pretty please to do something - is enough to send him on an outrageous tirade?

      I worked with kids for some 30 years and never met a child I really felt NEEDED a good spanking.  But this kid did.  He's all grown up now - about 40 - and heaven only knows what's happened to him.  I gave him back to the social services department.

  •  And the cycle perpetuates. (6+ / 0-)

    Using physical means to punish a child teaches them only that if you're bigger and stronger, you can get your way.

  •  Corporal punishment in schools should be illegal (8+ / 0-)

    and Gail Finney should keep her nose out of other folks' business.

    Knock twice, rap with your cane

    by plok on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:24:53 PM PST

  •  How hard can one spank a state legislator? n/t (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mmt006, Krotor, koosah, wishingwell, gffish

    You show a little grit and you lands in jail.

    by cal2010 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:29:04 PM PST

  •  If you have to hit your child (9+ / 0-)

    you need to learn how to be a parent.

    Why yes there is a war on women and minorities.

    by karma5230 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:37:20 PM PST

  •  Straight out of Mad Men (6+ / 0-)

    Two weeks ago Bill Maher and P.J. O'Rourke were talking about the episode of Mad Men where a neighbor smacks one of the Drapers' kids.  They both reminisced about how in the 60s it wasn't just your parents who could hit you, but pretty much any grown up that had some vague connection to your family.  I guess some Kansans long for those days too.

    "Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing -- look at what happened to the Iroquois." Garrison Keillor

    by Spider Stumbled on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:37:56 PM PST

  •  The most surprising point to me... (3+ / 0-)

    ...is a woman sponsor.  This seems like a macho bill that a man would write.  I also didn't realize until this thread she was a Democrat.

  •  We need a 'stand your ground' bill for kids (5+ / 0-)

    'Cause the only thing that stops a mean adult with a fist is a mean kid with a fist.

  •  Teachers beat us with paddles. sometimes holes (11+ / 0-)

    were drilled in them to make it hurt more. Left a really weird pattern on your ass. The more they hit us the more defiant we became and by 7th grade kids started struggling with teachers that hit a whack or two too many. And some of these bastards, coaches mostly, would pick us out of study halls for what they called "board parties" and pound away on us.

    It was a small town and as we grew up and got as big as the teachers who beat us, we would really give them the stink eye  and toss an insult at them if we passed on a street. If we were in a diner with them, we would jam a shoulder into them when passing them on the way to the can in a narrow hallway. They never pictured us growing into our prime or saw themselves as paunchy middle age guys with a nervous look in their eyes because they ran into a former student.

    The violence just made us want to pay them back. I respect teachers and have many of them in my life, friends, nephews, a god daughter and a son, but the pricks who beat with those whistling boards weren't trying to teach us anything, they were having a time out and recreating our asses into hamburger.

    I can feel my anger stirring as I write about it.

     

  •  wow.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lying eyes, Elizaveta

    Amazing that some folks don't recognize that all it takes is speaking kindly to kids / teenagers to get them to change their behavior.

    The 1% are Purists: They only support Candidates that Deliver Results They Can Bank On. Don't they know they should compromise? /sarcasm

    by Johnathan Ivan on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:57:42 PM PST

    •  I suspect you're (5+ / 0-)

      being sarcastic, but sometimes it's a lot more challenging than that.  

      Which is exactly why physical punishment should never be promoted or condoned.  Kids can sometimes push you past all your breaking points, all the more in families that are already under pressure (and what families aren't, occasionally?)  Somebody has to be the adult in the room (preferably the adult).  

      Using force and violence--physical, emotional, or verbal--is the cheapest, easiest, and worst possible solution, whether a parent loses control or hits with cold-blooded intention.  See numerous posts in this diary.

      But most of us have probably reached that kind of moment of frustration at some point, which at least for me engendered a lot of soul searching as a parent and continual, ultimately largely successful efforts to treat my kids decently, as though they were real humans beings worthy of respect, not control.  I was determined to model behaviors such as kindness, patience, and compassion--to behave like the kind of person I wanted them to become.  

      There are many, many, many, many effective ways to provide consequences for bad behavior without using violence.  As far as I'm concerned. people who condone and promote corporal punishment are immature, brutal, primitive, lazy, or at best, unenlightened.  Shame on them.

      Kids who were hit and grow up okay are okay in spite of it, not because of it--likely because other fundamental things were in place to mitigate its worst effects.

      But a lot of them don't grow up okay.  

      "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life." — Albert Schweitzer

      by mozartssister on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 05:22:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And if that wasn't sarcasm, (0+ / 0-)

      my apologies, but I wanted to say it anyway.

      "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life." — Albert Schweitzer

      by mozartssister on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 05:23:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's not always true, Johnathan. (0+ / 0-)

      For the most part it is, because kids want the approval of the adults in their life.  I know that the worst fear in my  own young life was that I would disappoint my dad.  But there are some kids who don't respond to kindness, who mistake it for weakness.  Maybe these kids are born psychopaths or something, I don't know.  I've dealt with exactly one in my 71 years of life, and I hope to never see one again.

  •  30 Year KS Public School Meltdown - Liability (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    historys mysteries, gffish

    The public schools in Kansas that I attended through high school 30 years ago were equal to or superior to any public or private schools in this country that I have ever come across. Look how far they have fallen. In a state that starved itself of tax revenue and purposefully decimated its education budget, look what this new law will do to schools insurance rates. Shame on the Range.

    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings. Steal a little and they throw you in jail. Steal a lot and they make you king.... Dylan

    by bywaterbob on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:58:15 PM PST

    •  Kansas Here, Too (0+ / 0-)

      I wondered if she was related to former (D) Governor Joan Finney. That would explain a lot. She couldn't get elected to anything as a Republican so she changed her party affiliation, and was pretty much considered a flake by everyone.

      •  But even Joan Finney was better (0+ / 0-)

        than who we have now, Sam Brownback. He's cutting everything in the Budget that he can get his hands on, especially the schools. And he's cut the jobs for the State employees, also.

  •  Bruising? I will share something have only told (12+ / 0-)

    to my wife. I was raised in a "spare the rod, spoil the child household". She probably did not mean to go that far, but, one time when I was 7 or 8, my Mother beat me so bad both cheeks of my ass were black. I am 71 years old and have never forgotten. Beating children is just wrong in so many ways. Do you think the beatings made me a better person? I started drinking and rebelling before I got out of High School, joined the Navy at 18 and never moved back to the State where I was raised.

    "Three things cannot be long hidden: The Sun, The Moon, and The Truth." Buddha

    by Grandson named me Papa on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:34:09 PM PST

  •  Beating a child is demeaning and pathetic for both (8+ / 0-)

    the beater and the child.  Constant beatings will turn the child into a beater themselves later in life.   Child psychology 101.  

    Parents whose child is beaten in school should sue the teacher, the principal, the school board for child abuse.  Finney is nuts.  

  •  I don't understand why is it okay to beat/spank (10+ / 0-)

    your kid but not okay to beat/spank another adult. Why isn't spanking an acceptable consequence of showing up late for work, for example? If it's so effective, why do we limit it to just small, young defenseless humans?

    •  I have no idea why it's not acceptable! (0+ / 0-)

      I would be willing to bet that getting a good spanking or caning, as was done to American Michael Fay in Singapore a few years ago, would be a far greater deterrent than six months or even six years in prison.  Faye was convicted of theft and vandalism and sentenced to six strokes of the cane.  His sentence was reduced to four lashes when the US intervened.  I'd be willing to bet he never stole another thing for the rest of his life.

      Corporal punishment is unacceptable, I imagine, because most folks know what it feels like to be hurt and don't want to inflict that on anyone else.

      But we lock guys away in cages for years - sometime for the rest of their lives, and that's acceptable to us because we don't know what THAT feels like.

      We put people in solitary confinement, KNOWING that years of no human contact will drive a person insane, and that's acceptable to us because we don't know what THAT feels like.  

      Better a caning, I say, than a prison sentence.  

      It has the advantage of being cheaper, too. /sarcasm

  •  This bill died...or is this a new one? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Naniboujou, gffish

    I read on Thursday that it wasn't even being reviewed by the committee.  Did the moron submit yet another bill about it?

    Rep. John Rubin's office said Wednesday the House Corrections and Juvenile Justice Committee will not consider the bill. Rubin is the committee's chairman.

    http://www.kctv5.com/...

    Proof that stupidity knows no bounds.  (Although, the left seems to have far fewer stupid people though)
    •  Thank you for this update. (0+ / 0-)

      Hopefully, saner heads have prevailed.

      "Hate speech is a form of vandalism. It defaces the environment, and like a broken window, if left untended, signals to other hoodlums that the coast is clear to do more damage." -- Gregory Rodriguez

      by Naniboujou on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 08:26:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The rest of the civilized world outlaws spanking. (4+ / 0-)

    Not good ol' Exceptional U.S.A. - jesus, in some of the Southern states if you suggested an end to spanking they'd act like you'd just burnt their church down.

    Astrid Lindgren (author of the Pippi Longstocking books) told of a woman who ordered her son to go find a switch for her to beat him with (in the proud tradition of authoritarian parenting). After an hour the boy came home, crying, and holding a rock. "I couldn't find a switch, but you can throw this rock at me." The horrified mother realized that the planned switching didn't mean discipline and a learned lesson for her son, but only violence which could be substituted for another kind of violence. She started crying herself and hugged her son, and that was the end of corporal punishment in that house. The mother kept that rock on her shelf to remind her how NOT to be a parent.

    Thank God, the Bob Fosse Kid is here! - Colin Mochrie

    by gardnerhill on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 10:31:15 PM PST

  •  I await the day when one of these children (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gffish

    decide to 'stand their ground'.

  •  You can't grant permission to beat another adult. (4+ / 0-)

    When the 18 year old smacks the teacher back hard enough to leave a bruise - what then.

    Economic Left/Right: -7.38
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.00
    Two steps to the right of Trotsky.

    by jvance on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 02:18:31 AM PST

    •  But that is what they are trying to do! (0+ / 0-)

      Included in the law are 18 year olds who are still in school either because of where their birthday falls, or because they were held back for some reason. Legally these are adults!  I think that it is just another way that they are trying to mess up the public schools so that they can make a case for the private school voucher system.

  •  Whoever keeps smacking Finney upside the head (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gffish

    please stop doing it. It is clearly affecting her judgement.

    There's no such thing as a Free Information Kit. There is, however, advertising.

    by lotac on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 02:28:12 AM PST

  •  I actually understand (5+ / 0-)

    the urge to spank a child; but because I'm evolved (sorry Kansas, I know you don't like that word), I know that it's the wrong way to go.

    Yes, it's harder to find other ways to get your message across, but it's also, beyond doubt, healthier in the long run.

    But evidence and logic be damned, this is Kansas (and Texas and Arizona and all the other states I will boycott).

  •  Don't hit kids (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    historys mysteries, gffish

    No, really, don't.

    They have guns now.

    If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

    by Major Kong on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 05:41:50 AM PST

  •  Dumber and dumber (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    historys mysteries, gffish

    There must be a maximum IQ beyond which one cannot run for an elected office.  If I am correct, this number must be in the very, VERY low double digits.  The statements being made by the right wing wackos are absolutely ludicrous.

    I was watching the Morning Joe silly show on MSNBC when this topic of heavy spanking appeared and he claimed to have been beaten by his father with a heavy belt.  He smiled and remarked that he turned out okay.

    His father must have really hit him hard in his head.  

  •  Wait until some 18yo ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gffish

    ... receives a beating from some school administrator who then receives their own beating from the student's friends on their way out to their car.

    This bill is not exactly well thought out, IMHO. There are far, far better ways to deal with unruly students than allowing administrators to beat students.

    As for this being the Democratic solution to students "not minding" their teachers, can you imagine the bill that would be introduced by a Kansas Republican?

  •  How is this supposed to work? (0+ / 0-)

    Will the 18 year old captain of the football team bend over meekly to get his licks?   Or will there have to be a number of 'adults' to chase him down and then hold him down?

  •  IDK (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nixter J

    I'm not sure why we are making a big deal out of this other than its Kansas.  Sadly I live in the state but this proposed  legislation is the least of my worries.

    Frankly from what I've seen these days kids need some discipline.  Many have zero respect towards their parents and any authority figure because there is zero repercussions to misbehaving.

    Speaking kindly to teens that could care less what you say, how cute.  People that say that must not have unruly teens/pre-teens.

    Discipline does not mean beatings. Once should probably be enough to teach them that future misbehaving will have consequences.  I know several parents that have needed to do it once or twice. After that the threat of a belt is enough.

    •  Spanking a child is not "beating" a child. (0+ / 0-)

      It's hilarious all all the sanctimony expressed here about how other people's children should be raised.  if you don't want your children spanked, then don't spank them.  IMHO one of the major reasons that juvenile delinquency seems to have increased in the last thirty years is that parents don't spank their children anymore or even discipline them in any fashion at all.  

      FDR said "Now make me do it". I hope Obama wants to do it because we sure are going to make him.

      by Nixter J on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 12:56:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  ... (0+ / 0-)

    I don't know on the 17 & under set, but I'm going to guess legalizing assault on an adult want pass SCOTUS muster, especially when one of those 18 year olds beats the shit out the man or woman doing it,

  •  Can't tell you the number of times (0+ / 0-)

    Parents have signed these "slips" because their child has always been as good as gold so far. Then they absolutely flip out when the rule is enforced and their child is the one to be spanked.

    The only time I ever spanked my child was a swift smack on the butt to keep her from doing something dangerous, like going out in the road. And that was only when she was a toddler. I would never allow someone who didn't love my child  as much as I do to strike them.

    Something seems to have worked out, in spite of the lack of corporal punishment. She's 33, has a good job, is happily married to a good guy going on 15 years and has two nice sons

  •  Kansas: Where even the Democrats are GOoPers (0+ / 0-)

    In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds. In loyalty to our kind, We cannot tolerate their obstruction.

    by mojave mike on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 02:44:56 PM PST

  •  The Two Things I Learned From Getting Spanked And (0+ / 0-)

    Spanking my own kids.

    One, my parents taught me that violence is a solution for everything. Because they just struck out at me but it was never consistent.

    Two, it does not work. And our middle daughter taught me that. Now all the kids were really young then but I figured out that our middle daughter was already a long way ahead of me. She had already figured out that a slap on the butt wasn't really that much of a deal and so she was more than willing to take that form of punishment and just keep on doing whatever she wanted to. Spanking her had no effect at all including not even reducing her to tears. And her siblings where starting to follow her example.

    No what worked was talking to her. Just questioning her and communicating. And that is what would actually make her not only cry but change her behavior.

    Collect Different Days

    by Homers24 on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 03:17:16 PM PST

    •  My kids got talked WITH, not TO. (0+ / 0-)

      They still called our conversations 'lectures'.  They couldn't just sit there looking contrite, however; they had to contribute to the conversation... tell me what they were thinking of when they had done whatever it was that needed correcting, tell me how they were going to make sure it never happened again,  tell me what they thought their sibling thought about whatever s/he did, tell me what they were going to do to atone for it (if their misdeed involved injury to their siblings).  

      When they were all grown up, they told me they would rather I had spanked them than lectured them.  Why?  Because I made them think about what they were doing and about the consequences of what they were doing, and that was mighty uncomfortable.

  •  I didn't get spankings (3+ / 0-)

    I got fists. And that wasn't the worst of it.

    If you think it's OK to hit a child then I hope someone twice your size beats the shit out of you sometime so you can understand what it means to be small and helpless.

    If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

    by Major Kong on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 04:48:57 PM PST

  •  Interesting, to say the least. But a bit amusing (0+ / 0-)

    as well.  

    When I first taught school, in Kansas, some 66 years ago, one of the first disagreements I had with the School Board was its statement:  "If you give them a spanking, send home a note; and they'll get another when its read at home."

    My position then - as now - was, and is, simply, what happens here, ends here.  But then again, back 66 years ago, no one thought it to be the slightest bit out of place for teachers - or other school personnel - to spank youngsters.  And no one ever even suggested the State Legislature needed to pass a Statute on the subject.

    Once!  Just once!  The classroom clown - his Dad was School Board Chairman; so . . . you can figure it out yourself how he thought himself to be above and beyond "the law" - decided to make it clear he wasn't going to quit doing what he had been told not to do.  There does come a time when it's a matter of "Put up or . . . ,"  And the time had arrived.

    A couple of the hardest swats possible to the soft spot at the lower end, seemed to communicate with the hard spot at the upper end of the spinal column; and Junior sat down, quietly, with a very baffled - and ultimately contrite - look on his face, that wound up with a few tears of surprise, and chagrin, as well.  The room was very quiet all the way up to final bell; and, so far as I was concerned, that was that.
    ^
    Next Afternoon, the School Board President - accompanied by a couple of the Dads in the little District - showed up at the end of the school day.  I got chewed out.  NOT for swatting Junior; but, for not sending home the note, so Dad could give him another few good swats for good measure.

    Never had any real trouble with those kids again, all the way up to end of Term.  And, never had to swat another youngster either.

    Anyone remember the scene when Tom Sawyer becomes Becky Thatcher's hero?  That's NOT my kind of teacher.  But . . . !  Never run a bluff, either.

  •  In a state that allows 18 year olds to own a gun (0+ / 0-)

    and has a stand your ground law, "spanking" them to the point of bruising could be perceived as threatening and result in some interesting repercussions.

  •  What's good for the child should be good for (0+ / 0-)

    the adults too.  We don't allow another adult to physically attack another person other than for self-defense; police cannot randomly hit you (even though they do); even prisoners are protected from physical abuse.  Why are children any different?  This is insane.  

  •  Dumb (0+ / 0-)

    Really, Kansas, can you be even more backward?  Not a collective brain in the entire Rethuglican criminal operation that is Brownback's Kansas!!!

  •  Westboro Baptist Church (0+ / 0-)

    He is likely Fred Phelps lover and wants to spread his love to the world through cruelty to children.  Nothing new for these troglodytes.

  •  I may be in the minority, but (0+ / 0-)

    I do not see as much problem with this as the author does.

    The studies on corporal punishment are incomplete and often biased.  More specifically, there is often no attempt to separate confounded variables.  Sure, a kid who is spanked and yelled at and never shown any positive support will reflect the negative influence, but what about a kid who is spanked but never yelled at, and encouraged lovingly when not being disciplined -- or even during discipline?

    To those who do not use corporal punishment, the idea is disgusting.  They cannot comprehend how spanking could possibly be justifiable.  And that is a valid position.  But unless you are beyond-the-pale wise, you cannot say that you understand all the causal elements in a child's upbringing and how they inter-relate.

    And more importantly, unless you are truly a perfect parent, you cannot justifiably condemn another parent's choice to discipline in way X instead of the way you do it.  BEATING is wrong, but spanking?

    Some parents may see it as a reasonable technique.  You can disagree, but are you really willing to impose your own moral code on them?  Remember:  other people -- particularly conservatives -- want to impose moral codes on others; do you REALLY want to act exactly like they do?

    The KEY element in this law is the parental permission.  No school official will be allowed to discipline a child without permission from their LEGAL GUARDIAN.

    Just to be clear:  I do not spank my daughter, who is seven.  I can see no real benefit -- it would create a sense of shock and horror rather than any desired effect -- but that is due to our choices raising her.  I have no desire to use my personal distaste of corporal punishment to force others to do as I do.

    I AM concerned by the particular cut-off, because the law allows a punisher to deliver long-term bruises, which are a primary means by which school officials and doctors and so forth can identify physical abuse.  If the law impedes that work, it is bad.  But the concept of allowing parents to choose corporal punishment does bother me.

  •  CHRISTIAN BARBARIANS (0+ / 0-)

    I was raised by a mother who spent the majority of her time in our local Catholic church. When I was 12, I innocently asked her what a Kotex was because I had heard the word in the neighborhood. She beat me to within an inch of my life, threw me down the basement stairs and made me stay there for two weeks. I was allowed to eat once a day and a bucket was my bathroom. I was forced to go to Catholic schools where one was punished for coughing, or not looking straight at the sister or priest while being instructed. I was forced to enroll in a Catholic seminary one summer when I was 14 because my mother told me "By the grace of God I will have a son as a priest." Needless to say, that was unacceptable to me and I was sent home after two weeks with the instruction to never send me back. I paid dearly, as I was sent to the basement to live for the next three months under the same conditions as before.

    I eventually washed my hands of organized religions and the hatred, bigotry, racism, intolerance and barbarism associated with them and their members.

    These extremist members of the Christian Taliban are a threat to our nation and they need to be stopped, the sooner the better.

    Be very, very thankful if you don't have to live in a house populated by a religious extremist.

  •  wonder when (0+ / 0-)

    they will get around to bringing back the 'rule of thumb' and decide if that should be the width of the stick you are allowed to beat your wife with.
    There are more effective ways to teach your kids to behave than hitting. Take away their video games or entertainment privileges, favorite desert... or as someone else pointed out and I can vouch for working on me, express your heartfelt disappointment in their behavior and your expectations that they are capable of doing better!

  •  Hit a kid, create an abuser (0+ / 0-)

    This, of course, demonstrates to children that it's OK to hit someone who does not do what you want them to do.  I wonder how many of these grow up to be spousal abusers or even murderers.  Violence does not solve a problem.  Never has, never will.  If anyone hit my kid I'd haul that person into court so fast it's make his/her head spin.

  •  Some of the finest people I have known (0+ / 0-)

    came from Kansas, but judging from some of the weird crap I've seen from Kansas in the past few years, I'd say the place is going to hell in a handbasket.

    In exactly what universe do people sink to the level of approving the beating of their kids with permission?

    Is actual parenthood dead?

  •  OK to beat kids over 18 if in high school? (0+ / 0-)

    How many of those Kansas perverts are going to be spanking the cheerleaders?

  •  Lets get to the Point! (0+ / 0-)

    If parents are going to be responsible for the actions of their children until they're 18, abortion needs to be legalized up to the 57th trimester!

  •  School Discipline (0+ / 0-)

    Reminds me of an article I saw yesterday about a principal who was twice caught on film dragging a kindergarten aged child down a hallway.  

    I'm not talking about her holding the hand of a 5 yr old and gently pulling a bit to overcome the kid's natural reluctance.

    I'm talking about her pulling a child that is on their back on the floor down the hallway by the poor kid's leg.

    What amazed me was how many comments actually DEFENDED this principal's actions.  Comments that literally blamed the kids, saying they deserved what they got because they should have just behaved in the first place.

    My response was I can't imagine any school discipline situation where a large ADULT would feel it was absolutely necessary to drag a small child by the leg.  Its beyond cruel and utterly demeaning.

    I asked those who supported this principal to ask themselves this question:

    If you saw a parent doing this to their child in a store or other building, would you accuse them of child abuse?

    If its abuse for a loving parent to do this to their kid, why in the ever-living-world would it be okay for a virtual stranger to do it?

  •  The GOP says they're all about the Constitution... (0+ / 0-)

    I was under the impression that the Republicans were adamant in their intent to follow and enforce the U.S. Constitution right down to the letter (especially the Second Amendment), and that they wanted less regulations and virtually zero governmental involvement in our private lives. Yet for some inexplicable reason, the conservatives keep trying to legislate things like religion, morality, women's reproductive rights, and now beating up on your kids. Don't our politicians already have enough more pressing, immediate concerns on their plates, instead of proposing asinine laws like who/what/when/where you can spank your children? These Tea Party Republican nut jobs are starting to REALLY go over the line. From the sublime to the ridiculous...

  •  Beating (0+ / 0-)

    Obviously the parent who slaps a child's hand to teach him or her not to hit another is making some sort of point- but probably not the one intended.  The child is more likely to absorb the lesson that hitting is bad only if you are small.

  •  Beat this (0+ / 0-)

    We need a bill clarifying who can beat your congressman.
    We don't want to hurt them too badly but bruising and maybe just a little blood wouldn't be going  too far.
    No shooting though unless you live in Florida and you must stand your ground.

  •  Children learn what they live. (0+ / 0-)

    A child who is beaten will grow up to be aggressive and confrontational. Hitting a child will NOT make the child avoid the activity that he or she is being punished for if that activity brings the child pleasure. Instead, the child will seek to avoid contact with the adult who beats him/her. If EVERY adult the child knows beats the kid, then he or she will seek to avoid contact with all adults.  This child will become un-trusting and untrustworthy.

    But hey, Kansas - if that's how you wanna raise your kids, by all means proceed.  I live far enough away from Kansas that it's unlikely to affect me, and I'm old enough that I'm not likely to be around anymore when their generation comes to power.  Whatever happens to these kids, your state, and our nation on account of this will be on your heads, but it'll be no skin off my nose.

    OF COURSE the New Right is wrong - but that doesn't make WRONG the new RIGHT!

    by mstaggerlee on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:46:54 AM PST

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