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Well, you've all done done it. All the pie-fighting here has driven me from my longtime lair to post once again. Here's a short rant on the Kos situation, but please feel free to just jump directly to the poll question at the end-- as that's what this diary is about, getting your take on an aspect of democracy-- and hopefully finding some commonality.

It goes like this: supporters of one set of ideas here call those in the opposite camp "stupid," or one of a couple dozen other insults. The other side then calls them out for HRable offenses-- and then some of its members find different ways to call the other side "stupid" (though I am well aware, thankfully, that sometimes people introduce actual evidence). Most of the arguing seems to wrap around who is the true "progressive" or the "troll" and who is not.

So here's a question for you all-- whether you're on Team Righteous (and aren't we all) or one of those (wrinkle nose here)... "others." It's a question that seems a no-brainer for progressives, so hopefully it'll remind us of our commonality. Unfortunately, I suspect that some won't be able to resist the urge, once again, to use it as an opportunity to chuck a chunk of pie at those who dare speak with their own voice:

The Founding Fathers said again and again, in so many words, that "Democracy requires a well-informed citizenry." Do you agree, therefore, that those politicians, political operatives, media personalities-- or even those who post here-- who knowingly mislead or misinform are, by definition, the enemies of democracy and those people wishing to live under it?
But there are of course plenty of self-serving types in this world-- many of which are not quite sociopaths and therefore in need of a pitiful but exculpating justification for their actions. If they indeed exist upon this site, of course they would just lie.

So the poll is indeed of limited use. But, at minimum, we can have the satisfaction of knowing most of us are indeed actual progressives-- or, lacking that, any BSing operatives have been made to confess to themselves what they truly are.  

These types will typically say to those who point out their lack of integrity things like, "You're just being naive," which in no way answers the question-- but it does make quite clear that they have given themselves their own personal definition of "democracy." Self-serving types will always try to convince themselves that they are something more than self-serving, that they have "methods" the rest of humanity is just too simple-minded to get. So here're a few such excuses-- ironically enough, most of them used throughout history by its scuzziest actors:

1) Not corrupt; just being smart

2) That's just how the game is played

3) Doing it for the good of the country-- or the greater good-- or for "God"-- or for the kids, etc.

There are plenty more excuses available for those well-versed in the trade of bullshittery-- and all are fairly easy to deconstruct (that's why they tend to keep these excuses to themselves or like-minded friends; they're not after the truth, just a balm for their miniscule consciences). I'd be interested to hear other lines of the self-serving that you've recognized.

So, enough. Please take the poll, or comment and give your take, whatever. Ask other posters you have qualms with to take it, if you wish, maybe you'll find something unifying in their answer. And if that doesn't work, well dammit, you still have the satisfaction of knowing, whether you can see 'em squirm or not, that you just gave a troll a good poke.

Let us converge, fellow progressives:


Do you agree that, since democracy requires a well-informed citizenry, that those politicians, political operatives, posters here on Kos, and media personalities who knowingly mislead or misinform the public are, by definition, the enemies of democracy an

70%33 votes
6%3 votes
23%11 votes

| 47 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    "A popular government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or tragedy"-- James Madison

    by Bad Cog on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 03:51:23 PM PST

  •  your poll is borken... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Just letting you know.

  •  I am not being snarky when I say (5+ / 0-)

    I wish there were a "Huh?" option.

    I live under the bridge to the 21st Century.

    by Crashing Vor on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 04:16:50 PM PST

    •  Just means "Don't care about truth, ... (0+ / 0-)

      Don't care about democracy: True?

      After all, with lies stuffed into their heads it's merely a made-up drama citizens are responding to; pretend democracy doesn't equal actual democracy.

      Those who practice it are in it for themselves, despite whatever BS they may have given themselves.

      "A popular government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or tragedy"-- James Madison

      by Bad Cog on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 04:33:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ah a meta of the meta in due course of the (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chuckvw, kalmoth, Hammerhand, Johnny Q, 3rock

    meta diary. How frightfully exciting.

  •  Everybody But Me is Stupid (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kalmoth, Lying eyes, ER Doc, Johnny Q, Bad Cog

    And I'm damned questionable...

    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

    by The Baculum King on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 04:55:13 PM PST

    •   I'm just saying that I'm going by the actual (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Baculum King

      definition of democracy: rule by the people. Bullshitters obviously don't want that; they want to lead the people by the nose to some destination that pays off, usually literally, for the BSer.

      And no, I actually believe there are a whole lot of smart people out there-- if they can only gain access to the truth: that is why the BSer is anti-democratic, after all.

      Is that so wrong?  

      "A popular government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or tragedy"-- James Madison

      by Bad Cog on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:00:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Saddest Part is Those Smart Folks (0+ / 0-)

        Keep acting like idiots.

        There simply aren't enough 1%ers and truly stupid people to elect Republicans anywhere in this Country without the help of otherwise reasonably smart people who consistently vote against their own interests.

        But to your point, you're right.

        Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

        by The Baculum King on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:56:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  What is truth? Not snark, but, really...climate (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bad Cog

    change dentists are right up there with flat-Earthers, but "enemies of democracy" isn't something I'd accuse someone of just because they're a paid shill or dipshit, herp/derp stupid.

    I say this because I can't remember a doctor's name. This doctor  "invented" child abuse. By that I mean he published his conjecture that parents sometimes physically abuse their own children. The condemnation and opprobrium that observation made was, at the time, astounding.

    That he was eventually proved correct is irrelevant, my point is that he was accused of all sorts of stuff that had nothing to do with what he said. Anti-motherhood, anti-evolution, anti-American...well you get the idea. So when you start talking about bought and paid for spokes-people, on Fox or wherever, the nonsense they spout isn't "anti-democracy", it's just good old fashioned propaganda.

    "It ain’t supposed to make sense; it’s faith. Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe." - Archie Bunker

    by Banach MacAmbrais on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 04:55:44 PM PST

    •  Which is, if yet more BS, anti-democratic itself (0+ / 0-)

      If truthful information is indeed the "lifeblood" of democracy, is the shill's job not to poison that blood?

      Where is the counterargument? I'm only saying one thing, to which I've heard no actual reply: someone who attempts to deny the public access to the truth has left them no way to reach a truly democratic decision. A person who wants rule by the people wouldn't do this.

      That's my only claim. Unlike your doctor, I have no intent to expand on or update it-- unless the definition proves it so.

      "A popular government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or tragedy"-- James Madison

      by Bad Cog on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:13:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Didn't do the poll thing, as I reject the premise (0+ / 0-)

    that we live in a democracy; the U.S. has never been a democracy, except perhaps in name only...

    "There's always room for cello." Yo Yo Ma

    by ceebee7 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 12:04:14 AM PST

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