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I received the following meme from several of my Right Wing friends today. I love the back and forth between my Conservative and Right Wing friends. We generally have fun with each other. While I tend to frequent both their sources of information (Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and paid Koch trolls) as well as other traditional sources, I find it astounding what is occurring.

I really do not mind having fun with the big government small government debate. I don’t even mind when they call me the Pinko Liberal. In the abstract it does not hurt, kill, or maim.

The Right Wing dialogue about the Obama/Putin feud is disconcerting on many levels. It is not only unseemly, disloyal, and unpatriotic, it is outright dangerous. When one’s hate for one man supersedes national security it puts much into question. Over the last few weeks Fox News characters have been exalting Putin’s fortitude versus President Obama’s mom jeans wearing lack of potency. Worse was Rudy Giuliani's praise of Putin for irresponsible ill-planned behaviors.

Giuliani: But he makes a decision and he executes it, quickly. Then everybody reacts. That’s what you call a leader. President Obama, he’s got to think about it. He’s got to go over it again. He’s got to talk to more people about it.
A Move To Amend colleague sent me Robert Parry’s latest article on the Ukraine debacle. It is a very complex issue that most Americans will never see via the traditional media owned by the corporatocracy. Robert Parry is the AP reporter that broke the Iran-Contra scandal. He got so fed up with a lousy press that he started Consortiumnews.com to provide real journalism untainted by the corporate masters.

In his long article from a few days ago titled “What Neocons Want from Ukraine Crisis” he explains in detail the machinations surrounding the Ukraine crisis. It bears very little resemblance to what is being reported by the lightweights in the traditional media and the misinformation from the Right Wing media.

Robert Parry reports that the election of President Obama threw a wrench into the plans of the neocons.

The neocons were dealt another setback in 2008 when Barack Obama defeated a neocon favorite, Sen. John McCain. But Obama then made one of the fateful decisions of his presidency, deciding to staff key foreign-policy positions with “a team of rivals,” i.e. keeping Republican operative Robert Gates at the Defense Department and recruiting Hillary Clinton, a neocon-lite, to head the State Department.
While the neocons were hyperventilating about Obama’s weakness, the president had a two tiered foreign policy. One was visible and the other was a special relationship with Putin that actually showed results.
Though I’m told the Ukraine crisis caught Obama and Putin by surprise, the neocon determination to drive a wedge between the two leaders has been apparent for months, especially after Putin brokered a deal to head off U.S. military strikes against Syria last summer and helped get Iran to negotiate concessions on its nuclear program, both moves upsetting the neocons who had favored heightened confrontations.
  …
Obama’s unorthodox foreign policy – essentially working in tandem with the Russian president and sometimes at odds with his own foreign policy bureaucracy – has forced Obama into faux outrage when he’s faced with some perceived affront from Russia, such as its agreement to give temporary asylum to National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden.
The praise for Putin now is nothing but a means to create a policy wedge.
If not for Putin, the neocons – along with Israel and Saudi Arabia – had hoped that Obama would launch military strikes on Syria and Iran that could open the door to more “regime change” across the Middle East, a dream at the center of neocon geopolitical strategy since the 1990s. This neocon strategy took shape after the display of U.S. high-tech warfare against Iraq in 1991 and the collapse of the Soviet Union later that year. U.S. neocons began believing in a new paradigm of a uni-polar world where U.S. edicts were law.

The neocons felt this paradigm shift also meant that Israel would no longer need to put up with frustrating negotiations with the Palestinians. Rather than haggling over a two-state solution, U.S. neocons simply pressed for “regime change” in hostile Muslim countries that were assisting the Palestinians or Lebanon’s Hezbollah.

What every American should be aware of is the part Ukraine plays in the puzzle. They should also be aware how the tentacles of the neocon portion of the American and European plutocracy is causal as opposed to just an organic populous movement.
The neocons came to recognize that the Obama-Putin tandem had become a major impediment to their strategic vision.

Without doubt, the neocons’ most dramatic – and potentially most dangerous – counter-move has been Ukraine, where they have lent their political and financial support to opposition forces who sought to break Ukraine away from its Russian neighbor.

Though this crisis also stems from the historical division of Ukraine – between its more European-oriented west and the Russian-ethnic east and south – neocon operatives, with financing from the U.S.-funded National Endowment for Democracy and other U.S. sources, played key roles in destabilizing and overthrowing the democratically elected president.

NED, a $100 million-a-year agency created by the Reagan administration in 1983 to promote political action and psychological warfare against targeted states, lists 65 projects that it supports financially inside Ukraine, including training activists, supporting “journalists” and promoting business groups, effectively creating a full-service structure primed and ready to destabilize a government in the name of promoting “democracy.”

So what is the ultimate goal of the neocons?
At minimum, the neocons hope that they can neutralize Putin as Obama’s ally in trying to tamp down tensions with Syria and Iran – and thus put American military strikes against those two countries back under active consideration.
Read the entire article and contrast it with the news one sees on traditional media. It will be immediately apparent that just like Americans were played on the lead up to the War in Iraq, they are being played in the Ukraine crisis. The big difference is that the stakes are much higher. Russia is no Iraq. Russia


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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (143+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LieparDestin, whizdom, Lepanto, bumbi, nailbender, Hillbilly Dem, Portlaw, mickT, theKgirls, Sylv, leeleedee, No one gets out alive, this is only a test, Superpole, bsmechanic, NoMoreLies, NancyWH, ExpatGirl, peacestpete, buckstop, countwebb, livjack, CwV, Hammerhand, indubitably, Azazello, deepsouthdoug, Yasuragi, millwood, DRo, JVolvo, Alice Olson, a2nite, Proud Mom and Grandma, mkor7, liberte, Dodgerdog1, enemy of the people, CenPhx, TracieLynn, native, annominous, puakev, CIndyCasella, IndieGuy, Judge Moonbox, Byron from Denver, Matthias, prettygirlxoxoxo, Powered Grace, randallt, Sun Tzu, The Hindsight Times, divineorder, rebel ga, bbctooman, Onomastic, anodnhajo, noweasels, high uintas, Timaeus, spooks51, deepeco, Ekaterin, Pluto, zerelda, JesseCW, Louisiana 1976, Wreck Smurfy, jan4insight, LillithMc, sawgrass727, fumie, skepticalcitizen, old wobbly, Habitat Vic, USHomeopath, Subterranean, Barbara Marquardt, afisher, South Park Democrat, GeorgeXVIII, Libby Shaw, Lcohen, kjoftherock, kbman, Ignacio Magaloni, science nerd, edsbrooklyn, mosesfreeman, chuckvw, Lily O Lady, mjd in florida, Meteor Blades, Shockwave, Brian82, joedemocrat, Laurel in CA, wader, peptabysmal, poco, greycat, BlueDragon, rapala, flitedocnm, antooo, opinionated, GAS, rage, barkworsethanbite, Its the Supreme Court Stupid, expatjourno, helpImdrowning, lysias, Santa Susanna Kid, dagnome, cpresley, rexxnyc, Tool, Judgment at Nuremberg, eeff, susakinovember, Wary, nancyjones, peachcreek, WisePiper, bobswern, kevinpdx, bnasley, Doctor Who, markthshark, WakeUpNeo, richardvjohnson, FarWestGirl, ctsteve, LookingUp, jasan, radical simplicity, SherwoodB, terabytes, certainot, jayden, emmasnacker
  •  ? EW ... how can i disregard it (6+ / 0-)

    if i don't pay any attention to it in the first place ?
    would i deserve punishment ?
    i gotta get on the road, earn my food, be back tonite.

    TRAILHEAD of accountability for Bush-2 Crimes? -- Addington's Perpwalk.

    by greenbird on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:21:09 AM PST

    •  And thanks to Egberto for pointing out (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high uintas

      the wave of North American Conservative-Putin Love washing over the U.S.

      Oh, the bare chest.........................

      And yes, Rudy Giuliani is the Chairman and Rush is the Secretary.

      •  Obama needed a bigger Swiss Army magic wand. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        waterstreet2013, Andrew Lazarus

        In the past, I've said that the only way Obama could have satisfied the Republicans is if he waved a Swiss Army magic wand and performed 5 miracles at once:

        End the wars in 1) Iraq and 2) Afghanistan,

        3) Balance the budget without raising taxes,

        4) Put everyone back to work, and

        5) Pay down the debt from where Clinton had left it before Bush's tax cuts--

        all at the nanosecond he took office.

        I now see that he needed 2 more miracles:

        6) Restore the US Armed Forces to where they had been at the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, and

        7& Restore the United States' moral standing to what it was in the aftermath of 9/11/2001.

        The GOP refuses to acknowledge how badly the Iraq War had damaged us, not only in terms of military readiness, it made so much of the pro-democracy ideology that is the bright side of our history sound hypocritical.

        Freedom's just another word for not enough to eat. --Paul Krugman's characterization of conservative attitudes.

        by Judge Moonbox on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:06:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And 8.) Undo the hatred of Americans (0+ / 0-)

          that Ronald Reagan generated by providing support for Saddam Hussein to kill Iranians and by using naval guns to kill 1,500 civilians at Beirut after abandoning the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps to a 3,500 head slaughter (in 1982.)

          Before Reagan there was next to no anti-American sentiment with the Arabs.

          Of course we were hated in Iran. We had murdered our way to replacing the Prime Minister, Mohammad Mossadegh, in August of 1953. The 28 Mordad 1332 Coup on the Iranian calendar.

          The Shah's secret police, SAVAK, murdered tens of thousands over the years "using American weapons" as the saying went. "Anti-Communism" was the excuse. Oil at very cheap prices from the Shah's regime was the fact.

          Reagan changed what had been a sharp difference between Arabs and Persians to a unity of anti-American feeling, even a competition when it came to anti-American terrorism.

          The killings at Sabra and Shatila will always fall on Reagan's head. Protecting those unarmed civilians was his responsibility on the map of Beirut. It is unavoidable.

          Btw: want to see blatant Right wing propaganda ??? Check the Wikipedia entry for the Pahlavi Dynast.y

  •  Sorry man, but Robert Parry and you are being (23+ / 0-)

    played just as bad as those Americans who still believe the neocons.

    Our Neocons suck, but they are not in charge anymore.

    Russia's version of neocons are, on the other hand, in full control in Russia.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:23:11 AM PST

    •  BULLSHIT. (26+ / 0-)

      US is now supporting a neo-facist regime in Ukraine.

      The U.S. is backing Ukraine’s extreme right-wing Svoboda party and violent neo-Nazis whose armed uprising paved the way for a Western-backed coup. Events in the Ukraine are giving us another glimpse through the looking-glass of U.S. propaganda wars against fascism, drugs and terrorism. The ugly reality behind the mirror is that the U.S. government has a long and unbroken record of working with fascists, dictators, druglords and state sponsors of terrorism in every region of the world in its elusive but relentless quest for unchallenged global power.

      Behind a firewall of impunity and protection from the State Department and the CIA, U.S. clients and puppets have engaged in the worst crimes known to man, from murder and torture to coups and genocide. The trail of blood from this carnage and chaos leads directly back to the steps of the U.S. Capitol and the White House. As historian Gabriel Kolko observed in 1988, “The notion of an honest puppet is a contradiction Washington has failed to resolve anywhere in the world since 1945.” What follows is a brief A to Z guide to the history of that failure.

      Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

      by bobdevo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:48:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting link bobdevo, thanks. Gah, its worse (22+ / 0-)

        than I thought.

        Saturday, Mar 8, 2014 09:00 AM CST
        35 countries where the U.S. has supported fascists, drug lords and terrorists
        As the situation in Ukraine continues to fester, a handy history guide -- from A (Argentina) to Z (Zaire)

        Move Single Payer Forward? Join 18,000 Doctors of PNHP and 185,000 member National Nurses United

        by divineorder on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:35:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What about the statement of experts? (17+ / 0-)

        I am trying to square these claims with this document:

        http://www.popularresistance.org/...

        and this New York Review of books article:  http://www.nybooks.com/...

        Its increasingly difficult to know which sources to trust.  Some I trust have made diametrical opposed statements.  

        I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

        by DavidMS on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:42:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Great links! Thanks very much! (7+ / 0-)

          Especially the second article from the New York Review of Books.

          Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.

          by CenPhx on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:58:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Snyder, the author of the NYRB piece is a Yale (10+ / 0-)

            prof and recently wrote Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin.  I would trust his taking down of the fascist myth perpetuated by Putin and Yanukovich.

            To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

            by dizzydean on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:33:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And he mentions Svoboda exactly once (6+ / 0-)

              in an article about fascists in Ukraine. That strikes me as avoiding the issue.

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 11:02:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Read all three articles. He addresses them. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

                by dizzydean on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:03:39 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  From the third (6+ / 0-)
                  Let’s consider each of these conceits in turn. Did the current Ukrainian authorities come to power in a fascist coup? As everyone who has followed these events knows, the mass protests against the Yanukovych regime that began in November involved millions of people, from all walks of life. After the regime tried and failed to put down the protests by shooting protestors from rooftops on February 20, EU negotiators arranged a deal whereby Yanukovych would cede power to parliament. Rather than signing the corresponding legislation, as he had committed to do, Yanukovych fled to Russia.

                  Parliament declared that he had abandoned his responsibilities, followed the protocols that applied to such a case, and continued the process of constitutional reform by itself. Presidential elections were called for May, and a new government was formed. The prime minister is a liberal conservative, one of the two deputy prime ministers is Jewish, and the governor of the important eastern province of Dnipropetrovsk is the president of the Congress of Ukrainian Jewish Organizations. Although one can certainly debate the constitutional nuances, this process was not a coup. And it certainly was not fascist. Reducing the powers of the president, calling presidential elections, and restoring the principles of democracy are the opposite of what fascism would demand. Leaders of the Jewish community have declared their unambiguous support for the new government and their total opposition to the Russian invasion.

                  Of the eighteen cabinet posts that have been filled in the new government, three are held by members of the far right party, Svoboda. Its leader had less than 2 percent support in a recent opinion poll—one that was taken after the Russian invasion of Crimea, an event that presumably would help the nationalists. In any event, this is the grain of truth from which, according to the traditional rules of propaganda, Putin’s “fascist coup” has been concocted.

                  To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

                  by dizzydean on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:19:20 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I didn't say it was a fascist coup (4+ / 0-)

                    What I said was that he doesn't address Svoboda. Which this quote doesn't address either. One can be opposed to both Russian Fascism and Ukrainian Fascism, as well as US intervention.

                    The author equates the protest movement with the "new" government, or at least only discusses the protest movement. But the protest movement has no control over the current government. There wasn't a new government elected because of the protests, they've still got the  one's elected in corrupt elections in 2012. Which includes a minister of defense that's a part of a fascist party.

                    As for "constitutional nuances," voiding the current constitution is hardly a nuance. It's a rather radical act, and it was taken specifically to oust the president, which does in fact make it a coup.

                    And again, I oppose the Russian occupation of Crimea, and the puppet government there. Not that I should have to make that clear.

                    If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                    by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:40:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  OK, but if you read all three articles (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      AoT, old possum

                      you will see Snyder addresses the issue of fascism in the Ukrainian side pretty thoroughly.  That particular meme, which some here have picked up on and are really pushing, is a product more of Russian propaganda.  

                      Furthermore, I don't the coup element doesn't line up as well, but perhaps that turns into you and I arguing over what the Ukrainian constitution says, which might be absurd.  

                      What is interesting is that Snyder points to a significant anarchist element in the Maidan protests, but we don't hear about that....

                      To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

                      by dizzydean on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:57:02 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, he addresses it in a facile way (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        dizzydean, lysias

                        and then dismisses it. And doesn't address the fascists in government at all.

                        What is interesting is that Snyder points to a significant anarchist element in the Maidan protests, but we don't hear about that....
                        Well, the government didn't fall until the fascists really got out there and got violent. And the media loves to ignore anarchists more than anything else. Unless they're the ones breaking windows. If this was an anti-EU movement it would all be tarred as anarchist.

                        If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                        by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:07:39 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I'm not sure where you are going with this (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Lawrence, old possum

                          he specifically says that there are fascist MPs making up a small minority in parliament, and that there are three members in the cabinet.  He compares their presence to Austria, the Netherlands and France, indicating that their presence in Ukraine is much less than those countries.  However, the current government was not due to their actions and that the Russians are playing a propaganda game by playing up their presence.

                          What's your point?  Do you seriously think that the fascists are running the show?  

                          As for the anarchists,  Snyder makes a point not only to say they were there as a local movement, but that anarchists from elsewhere joined them at Maidan.  Seems like that would be a good story to tell as well...

                          To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

                          by dizzydean on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:13:50 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  In Hitler's first government, after he became (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AoT, radical simplicity

                            chancellor, there were three Nazis in the Reich cabinet: Hitler (chancellor), Frick (Minister of the Interior in the Reich government), and Göring (minister without portfolio in the Reich government and Minister of the Interior in the Prussian government).

                            The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

                            by lysias on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:52:16 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It would be a great story to tell (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            radical simplicity, dizzydean

                            But it might reflect well on anarchists so it won't get told in the media.

                            I think that the fascists pose a serious threat and may in fact have been the group that started the serious street violence. Violence is what gives fascists power and ignoring that fact is foolish.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 02:19:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  What manifestation of fascism do you see in the (4+ / 0-)

                          interim government? What has the interim government said or done since it was approved by Parliament to make it fascist? Be specific and don't cite cancellation of the language law because the Parliament itself already stated that those reports are untrue.

                          Are you familiar with Ukraine's 2004 constitution? It's not consistent with fascism.  

                          It was Yanukovych's security forces that fired on Ukrainian citizens Feb 20 2014 killing scores, wounding hundreds.

                          The Feb 21 timeline is heavily documented from all directions. The government fell because of Yanukovych's actions on that date and because a point of no return had been passed for the street. It was plugged into the negotiations via social media from early in the morning. The day began with a Yanukovych lie about the negotiations that everyone else had to refute. The local police police forces from the surrounding areas began showing up at Maidan to join the protesters.

                          Svoboda members were elected to Parliament in 2012 but the word never appeared in a diary until Dec 16 2013. It was two months before it appeared again.

                          When did you become concerned about their presence in the government? Where were you before?

                          There is no existence without doubt.

                          by Mark Lippman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:27:47 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  There's no evidence either way (0+ / 0-)

                            for who started the gun fire. It may well have been the fascists.

                            Ignoring that a fascist backed protest movement toppled an elected government sets a dangerous precedent. Fascists get their power from violence in the street and from their place in government. Svoboda has both, that's what makes it dangerous.

                            Svoboda members were elected to Parliament in 2012 but the word never appeared in a diary until Dec 16 2013. It was two months before it appeared again.

                            When did you become concerned about their presence in the government? Where were you before?

                            Actually, I was more concerned about the fascists in Greece, which I wrote about on more than one occasion, and I hope that following the austerity that the EU imposes for it's deal the fascists in Ukraine don't gain similar power. Because if they do the government there won't crack down on them as in Greece. So no, the fascists hadn't been talked about much, but then again they hadn't taken part in the toppling of a government at that point, so I think that's reasonable.

                            I'm worried about the near and midterm future. There seem to be a lot of assumptions here at DailyKos that this turn of events means that Ukraine is necessarily going to join the EU and NATO, but there is no such guarantee, and in fact the likelihood isn't especially high given that pro-Russian parties consistently poll high. Of course, any anti-EU protest movement will be treated as the bad guys, because everyone so far has been. But Ukraine isn't in the thrall of the EU yet.

                            Along with that goes the likelihood of Russia basically destroying the economy of Ukraine if rebuffed. Cut off the gas and Ukraine takes a serious hit. The power of a fascist movement will grow greatly in that case. Too many people believe in the inevitability of "democracy" and the myth of progress.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 02:35:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Russia and Ukraine's leaders impoverished the (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Andrew Lazarus, Lawrence, DavidMS

                            country, and left it in debt with a terrible living standard.
                            There's a huge gap between Ukraine and its neighbors in all stats.

                            Average income is $6,000 in Kyiv, $4,000 in the rest of the country and 30% of the population are pensioners who get $2,000 a year. The average income in Greece after austerity is $24,000. Deaths outnumber births and the population dropped from 51 million to 45 million in 20 years.

                            Forbes recently listed the world's billionaires. 8 were from Ukraine. The richest one was a member of the Parliament for a while in Yanukovych's Party of Regions.  

                            In the last three years $50 billion was transferred to Russia to pay for natural gas. Russia cut off gas supplies in Jan 2009, then taunted Tymoshenko for making a bad deal.  There's no honor among thieves. In December Putin announced his latest offer. A cut in the price of gas for three months. He explained in detail that he gave Yanukovych an ultimatum to cancel the EU agreement or the gas supply would be cut. The EU agreement was cancelled and that's when the students hit the streets. It traces directly back to Putin. The press conference transcript is right there on the friggin Russian government's website translated into English for you.

                            Svoboda, the so-called fascists, have a website too. It's Russians they hate. I wonder why.

                            Do people think it makes them exemplary liberal progressives because they call out fascists and neo-cons? You're just doing a favor for the crypto-fascist oligarchs who run a failed petrostate in Russia. A parrot can learn to say IMF. Explain the concept of austerity in a country that has nothing.

                            There is no existence without doubt.

                            by Mark Lippman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 03:37:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And then Ukraine released one of those leaders (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Andrew Lazarus

                            that impoverished the country. Those are also the people in charge now.

                            Russia gives discounts to Ukraine for natural gas. It isn't as if Ukraine can get it cheaper anywhere else, or can just not get it. You really do live in an alternate reality where the EU makes everything better.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:05:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The woman who was released from jail is the same (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Andrew Lazarus, Lawrence, AoT

                            one who made the deal with Russia in 2009. The Gas Princess. Yatsenyuk belongs to her party.

                            This didn't begin last November. It's been going on for years. There's no quick fix. The EU doesn't admit basket case countries. 10 years hasn't improved anything. Money poured in does no good. It goes to Russia and a few oligarchs. Shell is going to break the cycle with hydraulic fracking for shale gas. Even Ukraine's blessing is a curse. Natural gas production right up against the border with Russia chaps Putin's hide. He's going to be obsolete.

                            There is no existence without doubt.

                            by Mark Lippman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:37:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I get coalitions (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AoT, Andrew Lazarus

                          of unlike groups united in opposition to existing power structures.  Students and intellectuals need muscle and military type techniques, tactics and organization to oppose those with power and weapons.
                          But they tend to dominate post coup.  

        •  Another excellent article, (0+ / 0-)

          also by Snyder, can be found here.

          I'm sticking with Snyder's writing on these issues for now.

          Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

          by mikidee on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:49:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Neither of those articles address Svoboda (5+ / 0-)

          in any significant way. Only one even uses the name at all.

          Talk about avoiding the issue.

          Calling Russia fascist isn't saying anything about the fascist groups in Ukraine. There can be fascists on both sides.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 11:08:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I suggest you read (0+ / 0-)

            this article, also by Snyder, if you'd like more discussion of the Ukranian fascists.

            Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

            by mikidee on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:19:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That was one of the article I was referring to (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lysias

              It does not discuss the involvement of fascists in any substantial way, it simply says that fascists were involved and then talks about Russian fascism. It mentions Svoboda in passing.

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:21:42 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Can't recommend this comment enough. (0+ / 0-)

          Links are a must read.

          "So listen, oh, Don't wait." Vampire Weekend.

          by Publius2008 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 02:00:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  "armed uprising"? That's absurd. (7+ / 0-)

        All of the minority groups within Ukraine have pointed out that they haven't been feeling persecuted as much as you'd expect from having fascists in the government, and I'm pretty sure the real fascist is the old president, who had snipers shoot his own people, tried to shut down their ability to communicate via the internet, and who looted the treasury before fleeing the country.

        Leftist Mormon in Utah, Born in Washington State, live in UT-04 (Matheson).

        by Gygaxian on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:50:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was a coup plain and simple, claiming (4+ / 0-)

          legitimacy for this interim group is absurd. Now there are claims that the snipers were agent provocateurs acting on behalf of the opposition.

          The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

          by Wolf10 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:10:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Unsubstanstiated claims, sure. (6+ / 0-)

            But not with any real proof. As for the legitimacy of the interim group, I'd argue that Yanukovych had lost his legitimacy before the coup, and though it's preferable to wait until elections happen, it's understandable.

            And in any case, besides the acting Prime Minister and President, aren't the rest of the Rada/Parliament elected? Perhaps their removal of Yanukovych was "unconstitutional", but he had fled the country at that point, and again, he looted the treasury and killed protestors. He had maybe a little bit more legitimacy than Gaddafi.

            And the one who has the least legitimacy in all of this is Putin.

            Leftist Mormon in Utah, Born in Washington State, live in UT-04 (Matheson).

            by Gygaxian on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:20:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Like that Mubarak fella (0+ / 0-)

              right?

            •  More unsubstantiated propaganda... (5+ / 0-)

              "he looted the treasury and killed protestors"

              Dissolve Israel; stop distinguishing between jew and non-jew in Palestine.

              by high5 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:36:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So have many of our pet friendlies across (0+ / 0-)

                the globe. Claming moral superiority and rooting for a particular dog in a pitbull fight is ridiculous.

                The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

                by Wolf10 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:20:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  You should be ashamed of yourself for denying the (4+ / 0-)

                proven fact that Yanukovych's security forces killed protesters.

                There is tons of video footage that proves it.

                Here's one example:

                http://www.youtube.com/...

                Luckily, in this day and age of digital cameras and cell phones it is ever harder for autocratic rulers to hide it when they kill their people.

                "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                by Lawrence on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:55:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  and equally hard (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mahakali overdrive

                  to hide when democratic and progressive nations kill their people, I assume

                •  The circumstances under which they were killed (0+ / 0-)

                  is not known. There were snipers attacking the police as well as protesters. If people at a protest in the US started shooting police few people would have a problem with police shooting back. Shit, most people in the US defend the police if they shoot unarmed black men.

                  If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                  by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 02:45:28 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You, once again, obviously didn't watch the video. (0+ / 0-)

                    And you completely ignore the fact that many directly witnessed  other security forces shooting protesters.

                    And there is this:

                    But the most chilling were military and security papers. One set revealed that snipers who killed dozens of protesters on Kiev’s central square last Thursday came from Ukraine’s “Omega” special forces.

                    The incendiary documents could bolster efforts by Kiev’s acting government to build a criminal case against Mr Yanukovich, whose whereabouts were still unknown on Monday, for “mass murder of peaceful civilians”.

                    http://www.ft.com/...

                    You should stop repeating falsehoods.

                    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                    by Lawrence on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 03:08:28 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So the department of defense (0+ / 0-)

                      which is controlled by the minister from Svoboda found papers proving the president was to blame for the violence? Tell me more.

                      And again, there's no evidence of who started the firing. That was what I was saying. We know that police also got shot. The claim that the military shot the police seems pretty spurious.

                      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                      by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:01:10 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are just being obtuse now. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        high uintas

                        No point in attempting to discuss with someone whose ears are akin to a brick wall.

                        Enjoy your self-righteous posturing about a minority faction of ultra-nationalists in Kiev while Putin unleashes national-chauvinist Cossacks, bikers, and fascist militias to terrorize Crimea, backed up by an ever increasing amount of Russian troops.

                        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                        by Lawrence on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 05:28:44 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So when the russian government (0+ / 0-)

                          says something it's always wrong and yet when the people you agree with, even the fascists, say something it's obviously true.

                          The defense minister is Svoboda. You want to stick your head in the sand because it might mean that the "good guys" are wrong about something. You want to play pretend where only one side can ever  be bad.

                          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                          by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 05:55:25 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Journalists found those documents. (0+ / 0-)

                            As I said above, you are being obtuse and I am starting to wonder why you are so intent on deflecting attention from the fact that a sovereign nation is being invaded, having loads of propaganda thrown at it, and having its citizens terrorized by citizens of a foreign nation sent in to cause trouble.

                            In fact, I saw you post a diary where lots of salivating about pro-Russian uprisings in eastern Ukraine was going on.

                            I think it is now pretty clear where you stand.

                            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                            by Lawrence on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:17:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right, and you're deflecting attention from the (0+ / 0-)

                            fascists in Ukraine and questions about who started the firing because it doesn't fit your nice narrative.

                            And I posted a news diary about Crimea declaring independence. One where people noted that there had been a lot of pro-Russian rallies in the east of Ukraine. I apologize that my psychic abilities were on the fritz that day and I didn't know the full facts behind the story. Of course, if anyone wants to read the actualy diary and comments they'll see that there was little "salivating" and a lot more discussion of what the declaration meant.

                            And again, are you claiming that government snipers shot the police? Because I'm not sure how the police would get shot under your scenario other than by government snipers. You really don't want to talk about the fact that the protesters were almost certainly sniping police. Or about the fact that we don't know what party started firing first.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:33:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  At this point you are just carrying water (0+ / 0-)

                            for Kremlin propaganda.  Just like Kremlin media, you are continually chirping about fascists being in Kiev, despite them only being a minority, while completely ignoring the fact that pro-Russian and Russian Neo-Nazis and national chauvinists are being used by the Kremlin to try and create chaos in eastern Ukraine.  

                            Odd how you didn't perform due diligence in that diary and highlight the fact that non-regional dialects were spoken at those pro-Russian rallies.  And it turns out that the, Gubarev, guy who declared himself "governor" of Donetsk actually is a Neo-Nazi who used to be a member of the "Russian National Unity" Nazi group.

                            And yes, some police were getting shot after protesters started getting killed and after Yanukovych passed laws outlawing protests, yet you are unaware of the timeline of what happened in Kiev:

                            January 16th – Yanukovich’s allies in parliament pass sweeping laws to outlaw most forms of street protest.

                            January 19th – Radical activists fight riot police and build barricades on Grushevsky Street, which runs from near Maidan to parliament and government headquarters.

                            January 22nd – Two protesters are shot dead and another dies after falling from a colonnade on Grushevsky Street. Demonstrators blame the police, who deny responsibility. Over the following days, several activists are abducted and beaten, and one is killed.  

                            http://www.irishtimes.com/...

                            You obviously know very little about Soviet and Russian incitement techniques in preparation for takeover, else you wouldn't be spending so much time looking for scorpions in trees while ignoring the rocks below.

                            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                            by Lawrence on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 03:31:18 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  He, uh, was the elected president. (11+ / 0-)

              He did agree to move up elections. That wasn't enough for certain elements, so they moved and overthrew the democratically elected government.

              Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

              by bobdevo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:06:28 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Putting Obama in a difficult position makes (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              him automatically wrong no doubt.

              The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

              by Wolf10 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:28:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Go ahead and do a quick little google (6+ / 0-)

          search on who paid the snipers.

          Then do a similar search into the Bush era coup attempt on Chavez.

          Welcome to the Whole Foods of the blogosphere.

          by JesseCW on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:13:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The armed uprising would have been (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lysias, Judgment at Nuremberg

          the "protesters" who were firing on police and other security forces.

          I'm pretty sure the real fascist is the old president, who had snipers shoot his own people
          There's no evidence that it was government snipers who started the shooting. There's no evidence at all of who started the shooting.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 11:10:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You're ignoring the intercepted phone call between (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Judgment at Nuremberg

          the Estonian foreign minister and Ashton of the EU, which suggests that the snipers were on the opposite side from Yanukovych.

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:54:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  For good reason (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence

            The quotes were edited and journalists interviewing people who were supposedly the sources either had no idea what they were talking about or said their claims were released out of context, which is why they are only running on propaganda networks as "fact".

            No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

            by newinfluence on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 02:00:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Yet another assertion (9+ / 0-)

        that the US is "backing" right-wing thugs and "fascists," and that they are "in control" of Ukraine.  Once again, with no actual evidence.

        •  Uh, no evidence? (6+ / 0-)

          1.  No one disputes US has dumped a lot of money into Ukraine thru USAID/NED.

          2. It is indisputable that USAID/NED acts as as CIA front:

          ...in 1983, the National Endowment for Democracy was set up to "support democratic institutions throughout the world through private, nongovernmental efforts". Notice the "nongovernmental"-part of the image, part of the myth. In actuality, virtually every penny of its funding comes from the federal government, as is clearly indicated in the financial statement in each issue of its annual report. NED likes to refer to itself as an NGO (non-governmental organization) because this helps to maintain a certain credibility abroad that an official US government agency might not have. But NGO is the wrong category. NED is a GO.

          Allen Weinstein, who helped draft the legislation establishing NED, was quite candid when he said in 1991: "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA."

          3. Reputable reporters across the spectrum have written stories on the neo-fascist component of the Ukrainian protest movement.

          What evidence are you looking for?  Membership cards?

          Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

          by bobdevo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:49:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Who is "in control"? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence

            1/2.  To say that "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA" does not mean that the NED is a "CIA front."  It means the opposite -- that the NED does overtly and licitly what the CIA used to do covertly and illicitly.  But keep looking for conspiracy theories wherever you want.

            As for clinging to the notion that that the actions that Ukrainians have taken in their own country must be the result of US manipulation, please see the diary currently on the rec list, "Dear United States, not everything in the world is about YOU."

            3.  The examples of reports that proponents of the neo-fascist theory have pointed me to have all emphasized that the right-wing fringe is small, has not set the agenda in Ukraine, and is out of step with the majority of Ukrainian revolutionaries in that it hates the EU and does not want to join.  But certain people just latch onto the notion of evil right-wing and US manipulation no matter what.

            •  "Dear United States, not everything in the world i (0+ / 0-)

              is about YOU."

              Fine - then I guess we don't have to do jack shit about Crimea or helping the Ukraine pay the fucking $2,000,000,000.00 they owe Russia for natural gas. Which accomplishes everything I wanted, i.e., no US military stupidity.

              Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

              by bobdevo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 02:17:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  so we've gotten down to the real reason here (0+ / 0-)

                Ok, good, so you don't want "US military stupidity."  We can definitely agree on that.  Why not just say that up front?  Why spread all of this distortiion and misinformation about the revolution in Ukraine being "fascist," being orcehstrated by the US, etc etc etc?

                Is it that you don't like the ambiguity of saying, "look, maybe the Ukrainian people do have the right to control their own country, and maybe what Putin is doing to keep them as a puppet state is wrong, but I just don't think we should get involved militarily"?

                •  #1. The takeover is right wing and neocon (0+ / 0-)

                  #2. the banksters are going to rape Ukraine in ways the "protesters" won't understand until they've been raped
                  #3 Many of those posting are advocating US action
                  #4 the truly paranoid are afraid the commie tanks are gong to roll thru the Baltics and across the EU

                  Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

                  by bobdevo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:19:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  #1 Again, everything isn't about the US (0+ / 0-)

                    and you're just repeating the same talking points with the same lack of evidence.
                    #2  This sounds like "oh those dumb Ukrainians, they don't know what's best for them and their country, but I do."
                    #3.  Once again, fine, if you disagree with those people, say so, but distortions and conspiracy theories are not helping your argument.
                    #4.  Like #3, if you disagree, great, but matching paranoia for paranoia is not helpful.

                    •  Re: Ukraineans have been unable to (0+ / 0-)

                      run their own fucking country since independence.  Why does anyone think they'll do better with the help of Goldman Sachs?

                      Just where is a conspiracy theory in anything I've posted?

                      Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

                      by bobdevo on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 07:32:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  дорогий bobdevo, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kjoftherock, ER Doc, pico, Andrew Lazarus

        Ти людина щира, і я не хoчу образити тебе, але ... Думаю, ти знаєш про становище в Україні трохи менше, ніж ні хуя, і репост статті когось ще, хто ні хуя не знає, справі не допомога.

      •  You keep posting this bob, and it's misleading (4+ / 0-)

        everyone. The forces arrayed against Putin and Russia's invasion are highly diverse...from Nationalists to Liberal pro-western forces. The so-called 'fascists' are a tiny minority being trumpeted as the 'majority' by pro-russian propagandists in order to mute western support. Your continued parroting of this line of propaganda all furthers the cause of Putin and his oligarchs.

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire.

        by JWK on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:20:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think the concern is (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lysias, AoT, Andrew Lazarus

          The "Fascist"(for lack of a better label)  minority is in control of the internal and external security ministries.   Post coup, are they going to step down?

          Really, it is somewhat like OWS aligned with the Aryan Nation to provide security to Zucotti park.

          •  After WWII, in the first coalition governments (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            whizdom, Andrew Lazarus

            in Eastern Europe, other parties were allowed to hold other ministries, but the Soviets made sure that Communists were in charge of the Ministries of the Interior, in charge of the police.  Similarly, in Hitler's first cabinet, there were only three Nazis, but he made sure that Nazis were Ministers of the Interior in both the Reich and in Prussia.

            In both cases, this control over the police quickly resulted in totalitarian power.

            The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

            by lysias on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:59:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's a very apt analogy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Andrew Lazarus

            But only if a member of the Aryan Brotherhood was also the minister of defense. I can only imagine what the people here would say about occupy if that were the case. Plenty of people here were totally fine with all of the mass arrests.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 02:47:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  "Fascist" seems to be devalued these days (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kalmoth, Lawrence, AoT, old possum

        Whatever "fascism" means, I submit there is more of it in Putin's Russia than in any EU country, except just maybe Hungary. (Even Hungary lacks the crony capitalist nature of Russia, perhaps only because it doesn't have massive natural resources sales to skim.)

        The description of the fall of Yanukovych as an armed uprising is almost funny, since the regime had far more firepower. What it lacked was much of a local base, as Kiev is not part of the Russophilic section of the country.

        Can anyone give a serious explanation why Ukrainians should look forward to tighter economic and political integration with Russia than with the EU? Stickin’ it to the Neoconservative and Neoliberal Conspiracies does not count as serious, sorry in advance.

        •  My sense (5+ / 0-)

          is that most Ukrainians wish for a non aligned status that gives them maximum freedom and minimum enemies.  Some Ukrainians, especially the older ones, are nostalgic for the soviet days, really, decent old age pensions.  Others, including the nationalists are extremely russophobic, to the point of violence, but they also reject alignment with the decadent, racially mixed, and pro gay EU.  Finally, there are many Russian speakers with close ties of family, faith and culture that, given the choice, would choose alignment with Russia.

          The young, mostly want economic opportunity are generally Pro EU, because that's where the jobs are.  And less corruption and social mobility.

          Can anyone give a serious explanation why Ukrainians should look forward to tighter economic and political integration with Russia than with the EU? Stickin’ it to the Neoconservative and Neoliberal Conspiracies does not count as serious, sorry in advance.
      •  Dmitri Orlov's blog has several weeks of good info (0+ / 0-)

        Of particular interest are the views of people who are actually in the region. Oh dear, the situation is complex.

        cluborlov.com

        Unfortunately our MSM is populated by shills and attractive airheads, putting us at a serious disadvantage. Adopting the simplistic view that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a dangerous failure of critical thinking, either from stupidity or lack of information.

    •  Neocon Victoria Nuland, wife of Robert Kagan, is (14+ / 0-)

      the Assistant Secretary of State of European and  Eurasian Affairs.  Her husband and William Kristol co-founded the Project for a New American Century, a neocon think tank that launched the Iraq War.

      She phoned the US ambassador to Ukraine before the coup and determined the exact rulers who have been put in place after the ouster of the democratically elected president.

      She admitted that the US spent $5 billion on the Ukraine joining the EU, then subsequently said, "F--- the EU," and helped set in motion the overthrow of a left leaning president to a right leaning IMF president with neonazis in his cabinet.  The Ukranian people will now be squeezed a la Greece, Spain,...  Poor souls.

      The NED had over 60 projects in the Ukraine.

      The Neocons are still pulling the strings.

      They wanted a war with Syrian and Iran, and they are mighty angry that Putin and Obama came up with the plan for Assad to get rid of his chemical weapons and avert bomb, bomb, bombing Syria, which Kerry told us was the only option.

      Information is the currency of democracy. ~Thomas Jefferson

      by CIndyCasella on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:19:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Proof? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sweatyb, Lawrence, ER Doc, sviscusi

        Pretty bold accusations, even if Nuland is actually a neocon (which I don't doubt).

        Leftist Mormon in Utah, Born in Washington State, live in UT-04 (Matheson).

        by Gygaxian on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:52:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  May be unfamiliar with multi-party parliamentary (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ignacio Magaloni, CenPhx, ER Doc, Lawrence

        system of government Ukraine and other European countries use.

        450 seats held by winners of 2012 election
        7 parties
        None had a majority
        In this situation, governments and their opposition are  formed by coalition with other parties.

        Yanukovych's Party of Regions had the most seats.

        The second, third, and fourth parties formed an opposition coalition:

        Batkyvshchyna - Yatsenyuk
        Udar - Klitschko
        Svoboda - Tyahnybok

        Nuland didn't choose her Big 3. They were elected by Ukraine's voters. All 37 members of far-right nationalist Svoboda were elected by voters in 2012.  

        The Parliament voted Janukovych out of office after his security forces slaughtered scores of citizens and injured hundreds. He never leaned left.

        Parliament approved the interim government formed by coalition again between the same three parties that had been the opposition.

        The cabinet includes a disproportionately large number of non-affiliated members. The President and Prime Minister are Batkyvshchyna members. The First Vice PM and Vice PM Groisman are unaffiliated.  The 5th ranking official Vice VP Alexander Sich is Svoboda, but he had no portfolio.

        Complain about  neo-con meddling. Agreed.
        But you disrespect Ukraine's choice as much as the neo-cons do. Meddling is meddling. Leave it alone. It's none of your business.

        There is no existence without doubt.

        by Mark Lippman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:11:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ukraine voted for President Viktor Yanukovych who (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Judgment at Nuremberg

          was ousted in a violent coup.  President Viktor Yanukovych had agreed to hold early elections, but this violent protest in which some threw Molotov cocktails at government buildings and shot police caused him and many others to flee.

          That's hardly a democratic election.

          C'mon.

          Nuland handpicked the new illegitimate government during a phone call prior to the coup.

          Information is the currency of democracy. ~Thomas Jefferson

          by CIndyCasella on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:56:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There were no molotov cocktails or any violence (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kalmoth, Andrew Lazarus

            reported on Feb 21, Yanukovych's last day in Kyiv.

            The violence was the day before and if that was his worry he wouldn't have been around at all on the 21st. There were funeral processions all day with people carrying the dead bodies from the day before through the square. People were mourning on the 21st, not throwing Molotov Cocktails.

            Yanukovych  was in Kyiv all day and into the evening with the others negotiating the agreement. You don't know why he left. One person in the street said Yanukovych had feasted on the blood of Ukrainian citizens.

            You see nothing wrong with that.

            Yatsenyuk is the head of the largest party remaining after Yanukovych's fell apart. But you're lined up behind Yanukovych and I don't think you know much about his record.

            You say Nuland handpicked Yatsenyuk and everyone including the fire-breathing neo-nazis just fell in line because she said so. And Tyahnybok didn't even get a cabinet position.

            There is no existence without doubt.

            by Mark Lippman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:22:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Russians are worse off than Spaniards and Greeks (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        Except for the diet of nationalist patriotic propaganda. GDP per capita is still lower in Russia, but even that is distorted, because Russian wealth is even more concentrated than American wealth. 35% of Russian wealth is owned by 110 billionaires. The analogous number in the United States (that we liberals are fighting against) is 40% of American wealth held by the top 1%, i.e., over 3 million people instead of 110.

        True, the Russians get to live (and die young) under a government that sticks it to the United States and its allies. So do the North Koreans.

    •  disagree (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      whizdom, AoT, Ezekiel in Exile

        What we seem to forget is that there are a whole bunch of "burrowed " neo-cons in the WH, etc.  Have we already forgotten the burrowed employee that signed off on the BP experiment in the gulf of MX?

         I'm not making a definitive statement, because I don't know, but EW and RP point out more of "what we don't know", especially when it comes to foreign policy.

    •  The Parry article is hopefully nonsense (0+ / 0-)

      If not, it means that the Obama administration, including Obama himself, has been totally and catastrophically incompetent in managing its foreign policy arm.

      From the article (http://consortiumnews.com/...)

      But Obama then made one of the fateful decisions of his presidency, deciding to staff key foreign-policy positions with “a team of rivals,” i.e. keeping Republican operative Robert Gates at the Defense Department and recruiting Hillary Clinton, a neocon-lite, to head the State Department.

      Obama also retained Bush’s high command, most significantly the media-darling Gen. David Petraeus. That meant that Obama didn’t take control over his own foreign policy. ...

      Faced with this resistance from his own bureaucracy, Obama began to rely on a small inner circle built around Vice President Joe Biden and a few White House advisers with the analytical support of some CIA officials, including CIA Director Leon Panetta. ...

      In other words, what evolved out of Obama’s early “team of rivals” misjudgment was an extraordinary presidential foreign policy style, in which Obama developed and implemented much of his approach to the world outside the view of his secretaries of State and Defense (except when Panetta moved briefly to the Pentagon).

      Even after the eventual departures of Gates in 2011, Petraeus as CIA director after a sex scandal in late 2012, and Clinton in early 2013, Obama’s peculiar approach didn’t particularly change. I’m told that he has a distant relationship with Secretary of State John Kerry, who never joined Obama’s inner foreign policy circle.

      So, Obama is running his own foreign policy separately from and often in competition with his own Secretaries of State - Clinton and Kerry.

      Does that strike you as a competent manager?

      If it does, think about this wonderful quote:

      Obama’s unorthodox foreign policy – essentially working in tandem with the Russian president and sometimes at odds with his own foreign policy bureaucracy – has forced Obama into faux outrage when he’s faced with some perceived affront from Russia, such as its agreement to give temporary asylum to National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden.
      If Obama is doing this, where is he getting his country experts, Soviet analysts, etc from to support this effort?  Or is he winging it - did he also look into Putin's eyes, see his soul, and decide he could trust the man?

      Thankfully, there is plenty of other nonsense in this article that can help us dismiss it in its entirety.

      Obama also found a surprising ally in Putin after he regained the Russian presidency in 2012. A Putin adviser told me that the Russian president personally liked Obama and genuinely wanted to help him resolve dangerous disputes, especially crises with Iran and Syria.
      Anyone want to give examples of Putin as an ally?  This is laughable, but it is beaten by the second sentence.

      Does anyone think that it would matter if Putin liked Obama or even if Putin is secretly gay and pining after Obama with Russian puppy love?  He's still going to act in what he perceives as his interests, including opposing the US wherever he can do so at reasonable cost.  What possible reason would Putin have to help us in Syria or Iran?  Absolutely none - his objective is to strengthen those regimes as much as possible since they are among the handful of countries that do not directly border Russia that have closer ties to Russia than the US.

  •  Yep (47+ / 0-)
    That, however, would require him to belatedly take control of his own administration, to purge the neocon holdovers who have worked to sabotage his actual foreign policy, and to put an end to neocon-controlled organizations, like the National Endowment for Democracy, that use U.S. taxpayers’ money to stir up trouble abroad. That would require real political courage.
    I think Obama has done great things in avoiding conflict in Syria, Iran etc. I just do not see why he puts people like Nuland, wife of one of the founders of the Project For A New American Century and Bush-era holdover of the state department in charge of these things to begin with. I do not buy the 'team of rivals' as an excuse, anyone with half a brain knows not to put Republicans in charge of anything. Ever.

    If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

    by LieparDestin on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:23:39 AM PST

  •  Also... (13+ / 0-)

    link

    The move to consider reversing Russian gas flows comes amid growing pressure in Washington to exploit the huge boom in US gas – extracted through fracking technologies – to begin global exports, providing a counter-weight to Moscow’s influence.

    ..

    In Washington, there is a growing appetite to retaliate against Russia with a long-term, strategic acceleration in energy exports. Exporting US gas obtained through fracking would be controversial among environmentalists, Democrats, and US industries reliant on cheap energy, the price of which would be expected to rise if supplies were being piped abroad.

    Republicans, backed by gas producers such as ExxonMobil, have for years been pushing to dramatically increase gas production to enable export trade, and are using the crisis in Crimea to argue for swift action by the Obama administration.

    If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

    by LieparDestin on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:28:04 AM PST

    •  Shipping LNG to Europe (10+ / 0-)

      from the US is not economically viable.

      Furthermore, we don't have any of the infrastructure in place to accomplish this on a large scale.

      Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

      by OIL GUY on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 05:48:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The article (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KayCeSF, CenPhx, divineorder, chuckvw, AoT

        talks about some terminals opening in 2015 and the administration considering accelerating the move to export.

        If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

        by LieparDestin on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:03:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As discussed on Up With Kornacki today, (10+ / 0-)

          Coral Davenport was one of his guests discussing importing U.S. Natural Gas to the Ukraine.  She wrote the NYT article:

          U.S. Hopes Boom in Natural Gas Can Curb Putin
          By CORAL DAVENPORT and STEVEN ERLANGER
          MARCH 5, 2014

          snippetsWASHINGTON — The crisis in Crimea is heralding the rise of a new era of American energy diplomacy, as the Obama administration tries to deploy the vast new supply of natural gas in the United States as a weapon to undercut the influence of the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin, over Ukraine and Europe.

          [….]

          The administration’s strategy is to move aggressively to deploy the advantages of its new resources to undercut Russian natural gas sales to Ukraine and Europe, weakening such moves by Mr. Putin in future years. Although Russia is still the world’s biggest exporter of natural gas, the United States recently surpassed it to become the world’s largest natural gas producer, largely because of breakthroughs in hydraulic fracturing technology, known as fracking.

          [….]

          On Tuesday, Speaker John A. Boehner, Republican of Ohio, said: “One immediate step the president can and should take is to dramatically expedite the approval of U.S. exports of natural gas. The United States has abundant supplies of natural gas — an energy source that is in demand by many of our allies — and the U.S. Department of Energy’s excruciatingly slow approval process amounts to a de facto ban on American natural gas exports that Vladimir Putin has happily exploited to finance his geopolitical goals.

          http://www.nytimes.com/...

          So, here we go...because, we can Frack if we want to and export it, too!

          I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

          by KayCeSF on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:23:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is a pipe dream. (11+ / 0-)

            To be shipped by boat, natural gas must be converted to Liquid Natural Gas which needs to be supercooled and kept under tremendous pressure.

            The stuff is so insanely volatile (i'e' explosive) that terminals must be built on long piers stretching out into the ocean to minimize damage when the damn thing blows up.

            There are far too few ships capable of moving LNG. The ships themselves must be built like a pressurized container to hold the LNG. Any leak or sudden loss in pressure and it's time to buy a new ship.

            It would actually be much more effective to school the Ukrainians, and Europeans in general, how to extract gas through fracking. I know this isn't the environmentally friendly option, but it would work far better than the LNG export plan, which is very pie in the sky, and not very kind to the environment either.

            Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

            by OIL GUY on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:39:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sickening. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KayCeSF

            Move Single Payer Forward? Join 18,000 Doctors of PNHP and 185,000 member National Nurses United

            by divineorder on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:41:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Nat Gas has to be liquified for transport (5+ / 0-)

            overseas.  That is an energy intensive process and could not even come close to the prices and quantity available from Russia.  Short of a trans-Atlantic nat gas pipeline, fracking in the US will have no effect in Europe.  

            These "sources" are simply exploiting the Ukrainian crises to advance their pro-fracking agenda.  

            "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

            by Subterranean on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:45:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I wondered about the process to do this, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mjd in florida

              as well.  It made no sense to me.  

              At any rate, it's disgusting to me that we are even talking about fracking as though it is not only our salvation, but also for the Ukraine.

              Kornacki didn't seem very convinced either, and the discussion was short because of the BREAKING news about the Malaysian airlines.    

              I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

              by KayCeSF on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:40:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Shipping adds about 6 dollars per BTU (0+ / 0-)

        And substantial investment is required.  About 10B per export terminal

        Why not encourage fracking throughout Europe?

        And tell Germany to reverse its ill-conceived decommissioning of nuclear power plants.

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

        by PatriciaVa on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:28:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here is a list (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mightymouse, Ezekiel in Exile

          of LNG export plants planned or under construction.  From Wiki.

          Sabine Pass Liquefaction at Sabine Pass LNG, Louisiana[44]
          Freeport LNG Dev in Freeport, TX
          Cheniere Energy in Corpus Christi, TX
          Jordan Cove in Coos Bay, OR
          Southern Union in Lake Charles, LA
          Sempra in Hackberry, LA
          Dominion in Cove Point, MD
          Oregon LNG in Astoria, OR [45]
          Jacksonville’s, FLA [46]

        •  nuclear power plants aren't carbon friendly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence

          and create long-term waste disposal problems, to say the least.

          Leaving this dilemma for future generations to resolve - and fail at their peril - is immoral; like sticking your granddkids with the bill.

          IMHO.

          “Vote for the party closest to you, but work for the movement you love.” ~ Thom Hartmann 6/12/13

          by ozsea1 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 11:51:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Only good thing for me is that my LNG stock has (0+ / 0-)

        tripled + over the past year and I was well advised...

        "Round up the usual suspects"

        by NanaoKnows on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 05:42:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Obama has neocons in his state department (16+ / 0-)

    i.e. Vicky Nuland-Kagan who are undermining his policy.  If that is his policy.

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:30:23 AM PST

  •  Your friends' Putin love is a separate matter (25+ / 0-)

    from what the neocons are doing. White conservatives admire Putin because Putin is a white conservative. It's no complicated. They share Putin's values.

    “Industry does everything they can and gets away with it almost all the time, whether it’s the coal industry, not the subject of this hearing, or water or whatever. They will cut corners, and they will get away with it. " Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D, WVa

    by FishOutofWater on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:54:48 AM PST

  •  QUANGO (19+ / 0-)

    Quasi non governmental organizations have been a favorite tool of NeoCons in recent years.  They receive public funds, but act independently.  

    One of the most active, and least overseen because they get direct appropriations is:
    National Endowment for Democracy

    It has become sort of a "NeoCon Peace Corps", attracting young and motivated politically active folks, often led by veterans of Paul Bremer's civil viceroyship in Iraq.

    Check out their BOD
    http://www.ned.org/....
    Eliot (felon) Abrams

    They had a major role in discrediting the 2004 Ukraine elections, not sure what they are up to in Ukraine now.  Wouldn't be surprised

  •  More on NED (13+ / 0-)

    Heres an Op-Ed by the president of NED

    Former Soviet states stand up to Russia. Will the U.S.?

    very clear stance on bringing Ukraine into the Eurozone, and very supportive of internal opposition to Putin.

    These guys are playing with fire

    Here is a profile of Carl Gershman
    http://rightweb.irc-online.org/...

    Note NeoCon connections

    Here is a list of NED activities and projects in Ukraine:
    http://www.ned.org/...

  •  Oh yes it is all a giant conspiracy! (13+ / 0-)

    The Ukrianian people are of course all a bunch of zombies who were induced to protest their kleptocratic regime by neocon plots to fluoridate their water which activated the vaccines that had been spread by CIA operatives acting as World Health Volunteers (which is why autism is so common among Romanian orphans:  they never were activated by the flourine). Since of course Crimea is near gas pipelines the whole thing was designed to jack up gas price so that Wall Street can for lose on people's house in Oakland where the police are were trained by the Ukrainian neonazis.  You see since Oakland is majority black te neo sons thought that was the best way to take revenge on the black man in the white (man's) house so that the neocons have paid off Putin to annex Crimea so that they can get the EU to rush in with more IMF loans in order to promote the Global Capitalist Order which is more powerful for having its own Three Letter Acronym because that makes them sound all official and scary like so that they can secretly blackmail congress into sending troops to boost their friends in the defense contracting industry as a result of fake scaremongering because 9/11 was such a success and the Bushco guys had a secret plan to, well, I can't mention it or I'd get banned, but you know the truth, and...

    Oh and can you believe how that Tea Party guys and Donald Trump still think Obama was secretly born in Kenya?  I mean how dumb are those guys that they beleive all that CT crap?!?!???!!

    •  Well, the current narrative (8+ / 0-)

      Has some serious holes in it.  I don't see any evidence of some secretive conspiracy, all the facts are there in plain sight.  

    •  And your particular expertise on the nature (3+ / 0-)

      of the right-wing party now controlling Ukraine is???

      Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

      by bobdevo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:51:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They are clearly (8+ / 0-)

        Plucky, freedom loving folks.  We know, because we spent billions on educating them on democracy and stuff.  

      •  bobdevo -- as opposed to yours . . . which is??? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

        by bluezen on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:06:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey, I'll admit the information I have on the (9+ / 0-)

          present situation comes primarily from leftist analysts/press whose track records I trust.  So when I see that Nicolas Davies, or Chomsky or Parry smell a right-wing neofascist taint, and when I see that the State Dept's resident neocons have been pissing in the Ukrainian soup, and when I read the USAID/NED/CIA have actively been stirring the pot, my suspicions are raised.

          Of all people, George H W Bush predicted this in his Chicken Kiev speech in 1991, when he warned of what he called suicidal nationalism.

          He was attacked by right-wing conservatives, and his policies were overturned by GW Bush, who pushed hard to foment conflict between Ukraine and Russia by trying to bring Ukraine into NATO as part of the neocon PNAC wetdreams of empire building.

          How about if Mindful Nature puts his cards on the table.  What are the sources of his talking points?  Fox News? PNAC?

          Just exactly what would he have the US do to enforce our unipolar hegemony?

          Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

          by bobdevo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:32:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  For your reading list (10+ / 0-)

            There is an article in Counterpunch that discusses the two primary nationalist groups in Ukraine.  I found it informative and with no obvious bias.  One thing that struck me was the similarity between a lot of the language used by these groups and that of our own far right.

            A few examples

            “nationalist, defending the values of white, Christian Europe against the loss of the nation and deregionalisation”.

            “responsible for the disappearance of the crucifix and the arrival of girls in burqas in your schools”

            “liberal totalitarianism in which God has vanished and values are turned upside down”.

            “We are defending family values and a Europe of nations against multiculturalism, which I regard as a policy aimed at merging different cultures — which is not possible,”

            Sounds a lot like the demagogic speeches given at CPAC.

            •  And, again, for the record, I don't support Putin (9+ / 0-)

              and what he's doing, but thinking Russia is reacting in some surprising manner to political instability fomented by the West in Russia's own backyard is ridiculous.

              Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

              by bobdevo on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:52:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Well shit (0+ / 0-)

              if they talk like Republicans, then of course it must be OK to invade them.

              Politics means controlling the balance of economic and institutional power. Everything else is naming post offices.

              by happymisanthropy on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:50:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  heart of the rockies -- &, of course, there are no (0+ / 0-)

              russian right wing/nationalists in russia, or crimea . . . except maybe that one guy who, early on in the invasion, admitted to a reporter (not from the kremlin -- gasp!) that he crossed the border from russia to "save" his brother russians in crimea from the jews & tartars, but he didn't consider himself a fascist . . .

              The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

              by bluezen on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:12:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  bobdevo -- are you open to reading this piece (0+ / 0-)

            from al jazeera: http://america.aljazeera.com/...

            it provides a different perspective on putin's actions -- or, reaction, as you & those rec'ing your comment seem to prefer to call it.

            i've recommended it to two of the pro-putin/anti-west commenters on dkos & one refused to read it b/c it was "biased" -- ! -- & the other has not commented back.

            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

            by bluezen on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:44:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Quick question from someone reading here to learn (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        native, Kristin in WA, Lawrence, PhilJD

        My knowledge of Ukraine is limited so I appreciate all the diaries and comments.

        This exchange (bondevo and mindful nature) has me asking: I thought there were at least 3 different main groups in the protestors, one of which was right wing or coopted by the right-wing, neo-fascists.

        Could anybody trace or outline where the group in power now in the Ukraine came from? Were they part of the protestors from the beginning? Did the protestors agree to let this particular group speak for them? Has the rest of Ukraine agreed that this group speaks for everyone? How does this group relate to the NGOs operating in Ukraine which are said to be tools of the neocons? Is there some specific protest group that is connected to the NGOs?

        Any help would be appreciated. You could just point me to a good blog or article, too. Seems like the commenters here might have some good info so I thought it couldn't hurt to ask!

        Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.

        by CenPhx on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:20:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  To read more about the nationalists, (4+ / 0-)

          take a look at the article in Counterpunch that I discuss in a comment just above yours.

        •  "the group" in power in Ukraine now... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence, CenPhx, ER Doc

          is called the Ukrainian parliament and the government it appointed, where the ultranationalists are represented but are a small minority.

          •  It's a rump parliament. The Fascists (there (6+ / 0-)

            is no excuse for sugar coating what they are) have gone from about 12% to 15-18%.

            When a third of the elected representatives are in hiding, pretending that what's left is still a democratic body is kind of a bad joke.

            If armed mobs drove a third of our Congress from Washington I sincerely doubt anyone here would be trying to pretend that the body remaining retained legitimacy.

            Welcome to the Whole Foods of the blogosphere.

            by JesseCW on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:44:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  no offense... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lawrence

              but, for example, during the vote to elect Turchynov acting PM, the "ayes" were 285 out of 339 present and 450 possible. 285/450*100%=63.3%

              Rump my rump.

            •  Can you cite which Article of Ukraine's (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kalmoth

              Constitution gave you the idea that the Parliament is rump?

              Since Ukraine has a legislative, executive, and judicial branch, what does its Supreme Court say about the matter?

              What data source gave you figures for the increasing proportion of what you call "fascists?" Which members are you counting?

              There is no existence without doubt.

              by Mark Lippman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:47:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You understand that when 120 non-fascist (0+ / 0-)

                MPs have to avoid showing up, the relative proportion of the elected fascists rises, right?

                When you put scare quotes around fascists while discussing Svoboda, you remove yourself from credible conversation.

                Welcome to the Whole Foods of the blogosphere.

                by JesseCW on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 11:54:25 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  PartyOfRegions has a website. You can read in Eng (0+ / 0-)

                  lish all of their statements they issued before, during, and after the crisis.

                  http://partyofregions.ua/

                  Look for the British flag icon to convert the text into English.

                  What they say and what you say are two totally different things. They were there and issued statements in real time.

                  They continue to do so. The other parties have websites too with utilities that translate the content into English.

                  I give credibility to each primacy source and I compare them to see if their stories differ.

                  It's better to use standard party names because I don't know what you mean by fascist. It seems to be elastic and it leads to misunderstanding. You can use fascist and the party name. But fascist by itself can mean anything. We used to be more judicious about how the term was used.  

                  There is no existence without doubt.

                  by Mark Lippman on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 08:48:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  a minority that includes the minister of defense (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Judgment at Nuremberg

            and the vice prime minister.

            Not to mention the incredibly corrupt Tymoshenko who, while not fascist, is as bad if not worse than Yanukovych. But since she's "pro-EU" she must be a good guy.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:43:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  last time I checked... (0+ / 0-)

              she was a girl. "Corrupt this" or "corrupt that" gets you nowhere, all of the major players can and have been accused of corruption, but only one major player cacked his britches and fled to Russia.

              •  You mean the one person who got run (0+ / 0-)

                out of the country after the shooting started. And who knows who started the shooting. Everyone seems content to blame everything on Russia and Yanukovycch, but that's absurd.

                And she's a woman, not a girl. I apologize for the idiomatic phrase.

                If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:04:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  you don't "get run..." (0+ / 0-)

                  out of your own country where you have popular support. You keep on presidenting.  And if you don't, you had no business to be president and leader of a popular movement.  Salvador Allende did not run even when Pinochet's troops stormed La Moneda, this is why he is remembered as a hero, and Yanukovych likely won't be remembered at all.

        •  The protesters came from all walks of life and (5+ / 0-)

          included nationalists, right wingers, left-wingers, students, Tatars, Jews, Afghanistan veterans, mothers, sons, artists, Russian speakers, Ukrainian speakers, Western Ukrainians, Eastern Ukrainians, and lots and lots of young people.

          From what I understand, it started mostly with young people and students.  They were met with violence by the Yanukovych regime, which led to Afghanistan War veterans joining them to protect them.  As the protesters were subjected to increasing amounts of violence and pitched street battles increasingly took place, the role of the right wing became more pronounced.  In general, however, the protests were driven by regular Ukrainians of all kinds of stripes and from all kinds of backgrounds.

          The ultranationalist to nationalist Svoboda Party now holds 3 out of 21 ministerial positions in the new govt.

          The best way to gain insight into what this is all about, imo,  is to listen to what actual Ukrainians have to say instead of all the bloviators and op-ed writers in other countries.

          Here's a good example of Ukrainians speaking out themselves.  It's a video reportage of Maidan by an Ukrainian artist:

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:48:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The protesters are not the government (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mickT, Judgment at Nuremberg

            The composition of parliament didn't change at all. All that happened was that parliament voided the current constitution and reverted to the previous constitution so they could more easily impeach Yanukovych. Whether or not every protester was good or bad is entirely beside the point. The right wing used this as an excuse to free the corrupt right wing, though not fascist, eurocrat Tymoshenko. She may as well be Yanukovych, she just cheats to get Ukraine into the EU instead of out of it.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:10:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Great emotion garnished with vitriol (0+ / 0-)

        and seasoned with insulting non sequiturs trumps mere expertise.

        It always seems impossible until its done. -Nelson Mandela

        by chuckvw on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:11:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Talking about conspiracy theories, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ozsea1

      Can someone debunk this one for me?

      http://www.nybooks.com/...

      The evidence provided in The Moscow Bombings makes it abundantly clear that the FSB of the Russian Republic, headed by Patrushev, was responsible for carrying out the attacks.
      The weirdest thing is how the FSB (secret police?) were caught putting explosives in the basement of a building and then said it was all part of an "exercise."

      Should I put on my tin foil hat here?

      "A developed country is not where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation." - Mayor of Bogota

      by Time Waits for no Woman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:43:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, that's a head scratcher (2+ / 0-)

        But, one of the biggest fears is exactly this, a false flag operation by the Russians, by committing an atrocity against a minority group, Russian speakers, Jews, Tatars, gays, pick one, and framing the responsibility on the "Fascists" in the interim government, as a pretext to assert military control.  

        Or conversely, the Far right elements of the new government could do the same thing, and frame/blame it on the Russians, to frustrate any accomodations that might lead to their loss of power.

        These regime change thingies are dynamic, dangerous, and fraught with mostly unpleasant unintended consequences.

        watch also for cyber attacks, next.  Might be the first global cyber war of the 21st century.

        Also not good for the US economy.

    •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

      Of course! The Ukrainian citizens who took to the streets months ago when Yanukovych scuttled the pending EU agreement in favor of closer ties with Russia could not possibly have simply found EU democracy more attractive than Russian authoritarianism. And when they took to the streets in even greater numbers after Yanukovych sneaked a bill through the Parliament to basically make opposing him in public illegal like it is in Russia, that could not possibly have been a spontaneous demonstration to keep Ukraine free. And when the protesters responded to the authorities murdering them in the streets with violence of their own, they could not have been acting on their own volition. No, it's much more reasonable to assume that this was all engineered by discredited American neocons in a plot to drive a wedge between Obama and Putin. Makes perfect sense!

  •  Thanks, Egberto. I read that article when (5+ / 0-)

    it came out, and it reaffirmed most of my feelings about the situation.  I'd never heard of Consortium News before, but was very impressed by the analysis.  Glad you're posting it here.

    Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand. -- Albert Einstein

    by Yasuragi on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:18:58 AM PST

  •  Really don't give a shit (3+ / 0-)

    whether Putin or Yats and Svoboda come out on top 10,000 miles away.  Just don't let neocons handle your policy next time.

  •  So according to "tough guy" neocons (12+ / 0-)

    This is how a real leader acts:

    Event--->Reaction
    And this is how a sissy-boy leader acts:
    Event--->Hmm--->Umm--->Hmm-->Wishy-washy Nancy-boy reaction
    When in reality this is how an actual, responsible leader acts:
    Event-->Analysis-->Discussion-->Decision-->Reaction
    Even if it takes just a few seconds or minutes, unless we're talking about parrying a punch to the face, this is how all responsible leaders behave.

    Because this is how crises become catastrophes:

    Event--->Reaction
    And as for their newly-found (btw harboring the worst traitor in world history to them) tough guy hero Putin, well, say what you will about him, but this is not what he's done here. He put a lot of thought into his actions. Malevolent, calculating, cruel thoughts, of course, but thoughts nonetheless. The only people acting without thinking here are these same knee-jerk neocons.

    Obama may not be playing grandmaster-level 11D chess here, but he is playing chess, as is Putin, as opposed to these neocons, who are playing a losing game of tic-tac-toe. And you have to be pretty damn stupid to lose at tic-tac-toe, unless you're like 3 years old. Which is how old they are, mentally.

    With all due apologies to 3 year olds, who can be quite clever.

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:23:36 AM PST

  •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CenPhx

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:29:18 AM PST

  •  I would love to see Obama kick Nuland out of (4+ / 0-)

    the cabinet and giver her a desk in the basement of the State Department next to the washroom.

    Information is the currency of democracy. ~Thomas Jefferson

    by CIndyCasella on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 08:50:46 AM PST

  •  The neocons are like poison to world leaders (10+ / 0-)

    They highly endorsed Yushchenko, before he became an "enemy" that needed to be removed.  They also encouraged the Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili before his unfortunate attempt at military action against Russia, and who could forget the neocon's endorsement of Saddam Hussein before they decided Iraq was a "threat" to the US.

    The neocons love those dictators - as long as they can control them.  At least you could say that they're consistent.

  •  I'm less concerned with who originated (8+ / 0-)

    this crisis, than with how it could unfold. Neocon elements within the USG will push (as always) for confrontation with rival Russia. They are still fighting the Cold War, and cooperation is not in their vocabulary. They have strong allies within the MIC to help shape US foreign policy.

    They will side with Rightists over Leftists in most circumstances, and do not shy from fully supporting Ukrainian fascists, providing they fight against Russia. A divided Ukraine would suit them very well, as would a continued eastward expansion of NATO.

    But here's the rub -- Putin will not be bullied, he will not be coerced. It's a dangerous mistake to believe otherwise. As David Habakkuk says at the Sic Semper Tyrannus website,

    The problem is not simply failure to understand the ‘Russian mentality’.

    It is a basic principle of ‘compellence’ strategies that they are liable not to work, if your opponent calculates that making concessions in response to pressure will only lead to further pressure in search of more concessions. The principle has been ignored by the U.S., and indeed the West in general, in relation to Iran, and it is now being ignored in relation to Russia.

    What one is dealing with is not simply ignorance of the mentality of particular peoples, but a failure to grasp how the world works, outside the rarefied and commonly narcissistic world of Western elites.

    We seem to have set a course toward further escalation and confrontation that could have catastrophic consequences, if we don't cool down the rhetoric and seek a mutually beneficial outcome.
    •  Precisely (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chuckvw, Ezekiel in Exile

      Are NeoCon actors actively engaged in shaping the trajectory  of the crisis?  

      •  I don't know to what extent they are, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        whizdom, CenPhx, chuckvw, lysias

        but statements like this in the second paragraph of Obama's "executive order" must be coming from somewhere:

        "the events in Ukraine "constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States"
        Say what?

        John Brennan has the president's ear, and Nuland, who is more of an R2Per than a full-blown neocon, though sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. On the other hand, Hagel and Dempsey, neither of whom are neocons, are also close advisors, thank goodness. But these are public figures, the visible players.

        Certainly the NYT, WaPo, and major TV networks are chock full of neocon-inspired writers and influences, busily shaping public opinion.

    •  Everybody needs to read Christopher Clark's (0+ / 0-)

      The Sleepwalkers about how the great powers blundered into World War One 100 years ago, because nobody was willing to back down.

      The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

      by lysias on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 04:05:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This diary is imbued with considerable fail (9+ / 0-)

    Ascribing all the problems in the world to the neocons is just as wrong as claiming they are not involved in anything.

    Or, as my friend in Donetsk would  say, "Dear United States, not everything is about you.

  •  Russians have no agency. (9+ / 0-)

    Putin has no agency.
    Ukrainians have no agency.
    Yanukovych has no agency.
    No one in Europe has agency.

    Only the neo-cons can do anything and everything bad that happens in the world is either directly caused by neo-cons or a reaction to something the neo-cons did.

    We're still not really sure where any positive developments come from (as nothing the neo-cons do is ever good), perhaps God or aliens or some other unseen actor. But we can work around that by simply viewing everything in as negative a light as possible.

    Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

  •  I like Parry, but this time he's dangerously close (9+ / 0-)

    to conspiracy theories.

    Saying that American Neocons are the ones responsible for the Ukraine revolt, is several bridges too far for me. Sorry...

    That said, it is amusing to see American wingnuts getting all weak in the knees  and wet down there (both boys and girls, it seems!) while cheerleading the he-man Putin.

    Those idiots simply never learn.

  •  In other words... (14+ / 0-)

    ...Obama and Putin are secretly working together, the Maidan is not a popular response to the ousted Ukraine government's rejection of EU ties but rather a fascist mob, and at the end of the day, it's all a U.S. neo-conservative plot.

    Too many hypotheticals, I'm not buying it.

    Ukraine is an independent state, not an appendage of Russia. It has the right to determine its own fate. Russia regards it as part of the 'near abroad', loosely the states formerly a part of the Soviet Union. I'm unaware of any consent by these states to being classed as such.

    Nor does everything in this world revolve around U.S. domestic factions and their squabbles, agendas overt or otherwise, or for that matter the CIA.

    Reading this in toto, second half of diary and comment thread, I am aghast. Kissinger wasn't making things up when he noted that Americans have historically never understood Russia.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:48:36 AM PST

  •  I don't get the victim-blaming going on here (9+ / 0-)

    Disregarding the neo-con mess entirely, it seems like so many Daily Kossacks (not the Russians, the DK users) seem to be blaming Ukraine for the Russian invasion, because they changed their government in such a way that enabled nationalists to get a slice of the pie. Why are you blaming the country that was invaded? Sure, the Kiev government may or may not be illegitimate; that will be determined by the next election (or will be proved if there is not another election). That has nothing to do with the fact that Ukraine is not at fault for the Crimean crisis. Neither is the US. It is solely Russia's fault, and the absurd victim-blaming needs to stop.

    Leftist Mormon in Utah, Born in Washington State, live in UT-04 (Matheson).

    by Gygaxian on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:49:39 AM PST

  •  I disagree with Parry's worldview. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, CenPhx, Andrew Lazarus, kalmoth

    He sees events as being caused almost exclusively by leaders who manipulate them skillfully.  Everything that happens is controlled by the man behind the curtain.

    I think events are the result of numerous forces, and oftentimes small incidents have a huge impact which no one can predict or control, at least initially.  I see leaders as often being manipulated by events as the other way around.  I think there's a lot of truth in the joke about the leader who must suddenly rush off in another direction in response to a sudden shift in the movement of his supposed followers.

    Additionally, the idea that anyone can foresee the consequences of all of their actions is false, IMO.  What we see far more often is leaders who are poorly informed making decisions which don't work, in part because of bad information, plus there's just too many factors at work in any complex situation for anyone to control.

    And what can be controlled is often ineffective.  The US got rid of Vietnamese leader Diem in a coup they engineered.  That this helped the war at all is hard to show.

    Even if Parry is right, there's a downside to his point of view.  If everything is manipulated by behind-the-scenes forces, how does he know what they're really doing?  

    I'm sure that Putin and Obama and others are saying one thing publicly and other things privately.  I just doubt we're likely to know what was said privately in most cases.  Sure, there's "leaks" (less so with Putin and other autocratic leaders), but there's two questions to ask about any leak: does the person really know the truth, and is the leak merely misinformation released for the purpose of manipulation?

    •  Obviously (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CenPhx, Judgment at Nuremberg

      US involvement or meddling was not the sole or even principal driver of the protests that led to the overthrow of the former PM.  

      But it raises the question, was it useful, was it necessary, was it right? If found that NED or other QUANGO overstepped their mandates, is it a part of a Policy stance in a systematic sense, and what do we think about it?  

      If they didn't meddle, fine.  But if they did, if historical patterns hold true, these popular uprisings are doomed as premature, or all the courageous leaders caught on film and brutally repressed or exiled.

      Did the US funnel money directly to any of the factions participating in the coup?   A clear denial is fine by me.  Or, if yes, an explanation of why, would be fine, too.  

      But if we are going to do "Hard" power diplomacy, with "Soft power" assets, it puts all NGOs at risk, physical risk.

  •  Obama is currently bombing (7+ / 0-)

    4+ countries. And the Republicans complaint is that we aren't bombing enough?

    None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

    by gjohnsit on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 10:26:54 AM PST

  •  Yay (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dpinzow, jayden, kalmoth

    Zzzzzzzzzzz

    The looming shadow of Uncle Sam touches all, and never shall the sun set on his backside, for the spiderlike fingers of his influence touch all, cause all, and create all manner of conflict...if only if it weren't for the brave efforts of our glorious internet freedom fighters to sabotage the self determiation of the Ukranian people.

    This revolution is not scheduled!

    It's immoral for the Americans to invade Iraq!
    But, it's understandable that the Russians might invade Ukraine.

    The Arab Spring is great!
    Ukranian Spring? Eh, not so much.

    All these mental gymnastics defy the reality of the situation; the Ukranians want a divorce, not because of an affair with Uncle Sam, but, because it was an arranged marriage and they never really loved each other. Putin is the asshole next door stealing the silverware.

    I've seen some hardboiled eggs in my time, but you're about twenty minutes

    by harrylimelives on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 11:26:09 AM PST

  •  Honestly, I don't care about Crimea. (3+ / 0-)

    If they want to be a part of that cesspool in Russia, please proceed. IDGAF.

    We shouldn't even get involved. Let Europe take care of their neighbors. If they care.

    People, we are fighting our own civil war. Our country is falling apart internally. Priorities.

    I don't want a single drop of American blood spilled in the shithole. . And not one dollar of treasure.

    Regardless of our action in Crimea, the GOP will insist it fails. It's hopeless.

    What is so unnerving about the candidacy of Sarah Palin is the degree to which she represents—and her supporters celebrate—the joyful marriage of confidence and ignorance. SAM HARRIS

    by Cpqemp on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 11:36:27 AM PST

  •  I seriously wonder (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias

    If Asst Secy Nuland isn't quietly moved to a position that better matches her abilities.  She seriously effed this one up, big time.

  •  It's pretty clear from the evidence (5+ / 0-)

    available that the integration and coordination of Ukraine (among other EU Eastern interests such as Moldova, Georgia, Belarus, Azerbaijan, etc. ) has been in the planning stages since the collapse of the Soviet Union and Ukraine's independence in 1991.

    USAID (which has long been known as a CIA front) and NED (which claims it is not a CIA front) have been actively funding parts of the Ukrainian "democracy," "free market" and "independent media" sectors for many years.

    Ukrainians have formed hundreds of their own NGOs to promote integration with the EU and to educate the Ukrainian people about all the wonders that will be theirs -- once they become officially a part of Europe.

    The revolt was 20+ years in preparation. US and EU education and funding entered into it all along the way. This revolt was due to a long game being played both by Ukrainian interests and by their US and EU partners.

    Some of the fascists and neo-Nazis were used as shock troops, firebombing (unarmed) police, taking over and/or destroying public facilities, making it impossible for the Yanukovych government to control the demonstrations, and ultimately making it impossible for the government to govern. Yanukovych's own ineptitude certainly contributed to his ouster.

    So far as I've been able to find, the Russians had nothing comparable to the USAID/NED/EU/Ukrainian "development" operation.

    The revolt was probably inevitable given the ongoing frustrations of the Ukrainian people under corrupt and often incompetent governance since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Many former Soviet republics and client states have had similar complaints and frustrations.

    Empowering Right Sector and other rightist/fascist/neo-Nazi elements to become violent shock troops on behalf of the revolution may turn out to be a terrible mistake. The justice and internal security (ie: police) portfolios of the 'interim cabinet' are held by Svoboda and Right Sector representatives, and that cannot bode well for the human and civil rights of the Ukrainian people in general.

    Meanwhile, the IMF and EU are putting in motion their plans for "liberating" Ukraine from what remains of their patrimony, land, resources and wealth.

     

    Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

    by felix19 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:13:49 PM PST

  •  I am of Ukrainian descent. (10+ / 0-)

    I have relatives living in Ukraine.

    They do not fully understand what is going on.

    Nor do I.

    I find it very interesting that folks who have never been there seem to be such experts.

    It's kinda like me being an expert on the US. Which I definitely am not.

    Here's an article from a Ukrainian-Canadian who has both lived and worked in Ukraine.

    And just came back after a short visit.

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    Just her opinion, mind you. She's not an expert either.

    •  An excellent read. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Andrew Lazarus, kalmoth

      Thanks for the link.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 01:07:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Great article (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kalmoth

      thanks for finding and sharing.   My interest relates principally to American Foreign Policy interests and the best means to achieve those, and how to elect more and better democrats best equipped to deal with the Foreign Policy challenges we will face going forward.

      Mr. Putin seems to have genuinely believed that Ukraine was Yugoslavia, and that his forces would be warmly welcomed by at least half of the country. As Leonid D. Kuchma, a former president of Ukraine and once a senior member of the Soviet military-industrial complex, told me: “His advisers must have thought they would be met in eastern Ukraine with flowers as liberators. The reality is 180 degrees opposite.”

      Many foreign policy realists wish the Ukrainian revolution hadn’t happened. They would rather Ukraine had more fully entered the corrupt, authoritarian zone the Kremlin is seeking to consolidate. But we don’t get to choose for Ukraine — Ukrainians do, and they have. Now we have to choose for ourselves.

  •  everyone gets that there will be no easy war (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Judgment at Nuremberg, jayden

    on the Ukraine.

    if the Russians want to make it hard, getting naval
    assets into the black sea will be miserable, and they
    would be sitting duck in a russian duck pond.

    The Turks were very unhappy with the iraq war and didn't
    get involved. They will so not want a war with Russia
    on the crimea.

    The American people are sick of war, they totally pissed
    on the Syria issue.

    Very few congressmen were stepping up to that one.

  •  the distaste they have 4 reality-based communities (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    shows up in their distaste for reality
    based thinking.

  •  Cummon guys: geography and economics !! (0+ / 0-)

    The bridge. The bridge.

    The Big Bridge !! (The tunnel.)

    Look at the 5.5km gap between the Kerch Peninsula on the Ukrainian side and the Chushka Spit in Russia.

    Easy enough with $10-billion to spend to do a first-rate connection with a tunnel in the middle. Tunnels are cheaper, long term than bridges. A pair of modern excavation machines could get this done by 2025.

    The Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel solved that problem 50 years ago connecting the Delmarva Peninsula and Virginia.

    (Yeah, the Russians can hire a Japanese project manager and get it done on time and under budget. Despite that they're Russians.)

    This bridge gets built, the whole region gets a boost. Millions more passenger transits occur. Trains get to move east from Sevastopol with minimal delays. Goods from Ukraine go east at minimal cost.

    Everybody wins !

    (Whisper: Russia getting Crimea is a good thing. Good for everybody including the Ukrainians.)

  •  The Ukraine is a sort of dead beat relative and I (0+ / 0-)

    believe the only country carved out of Russia that has not show any positive growth..It was adead beat before and willremain as such no matter who is in charge. I'm surprised that anyone evenwants to claim it as an ally except for U.S. and Natoto surround the Russkies completely and surround itwith "defensive" missles toprevent us from attack of Iran...WTF

    Putin did what he felt he had to do or be under the thumb of the new Ukraine puppet governmentand be blackmailed into supplying Ukraine with freeor very low cost gas and possibly losing it's naval bases inthe Crimean after the pro west puppet government also took "control" of the Crimea which would only be a matter of time in Putin's estimation. Putin's move was not personal,just business and not one person has been killed so far

    "Round up the usual suspects"

    by NanaoKnows on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 05:52:20 PM PST

  •  loudest war enablers are on the radio- we wouldn' (0+ / 0-)

    have been sold into afghanistan and iraq without those unified 1200 stations, and their blowhards are doing 10x what most people see/hear on other media.

    but they continue to get a free speech free ride.

    taken to it's republican chickenhawk wet dream conclusion the left would have protestors by the millions in the streets but the chickenhawk pols wouldn't be intimidated by them because the talk radio gods and their well managed screamers are much louder.

    This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

    by certainot on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:36:08 PM PST

  •  this is just so (0+ / 0-)

    fucked up

    Without doubt, the neocons’ most dramatic – and potentially most dangerous – counter-move has been Ukraine, where they have lent their political and financial support to opposition forces who sought to break Ukraine away from its Russian neighbor.

    Though this crisis also stems from the historical division of Ukraine – between its more European-oriented west and the Russian-ethnic east and south – neocon operatives, with financing from the U.S.-funded National Endowment for Democracy and other U.S. sources, played key roles in destabilizing and overthrowing the democratically elected president.

    NED, a $100 million-a-year agency created by the Reagan administration in 1983 to promote political action and psychological warfare against targeted states, lists 65 projects that it supports financially inside Ukraine, including training activists, supporting “journalists” and promoting business groups, effectively creating a full-service structure primed and ready to destabilize a government in the name of promoting “democracy.”...

    At minimum, the neocons hope that they can neutralize Putin as Obama’s ally in trying to tamp down tensions with Syria and Iran – and thus put American military strikes against those two countries back under active consideration.

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:18:08 PM PST

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