Skip to main content

It is hard to deny that the last week on Dailykos has been a bit taxing to say the least in terms of arguing for the heart and soul of one of the only progressive outlets on the internet. First we heard from respected front pager Denise Oliver Velez in a post entitled Why are you here? (A rant) . The post was well received in our fact based community yet failed intellectual integrity and honesty 101 in internet discourse by failing to link to the offending post. In doing so Denise conflated issues and painted a large swath of the Dailykos into one ideological corner without allowing them the opportunity to weigh the validity, objectivity, and subjectivity of her words. This created a strawman argument in which people who would otherwise be like minded allies were pitted against each other and those who were smeared by her words could not properly defend themselves. The professor should recognize her words as a logical fallacy but proceeded to double down on her flawed argument. She is entitled to her opinion and it was noted that it was a rant. I took it with a grain of salt and slept it off considering I have enjoyed her writing on Dailykos in the past.

Now last evening Kos decided to weigh in another post Ask-me-Anything-Even-about-ugly-meta  in which he stated he was in 100% agreement with Denise Oliver Velez's post. This touched off another meta war on the site and out of anger I felt the need to post this comment in the thread. It was not the highlight of my comment history on Dailykos nor did it much further the discourse of our stated mission objective but it was a rant that contained a large amount of truth in it that I have kept bottled up. After Kos accused me of lying about reading Crashing the Gate he chimed in with this comment:

The book was about pragmatism (25+ / 0-)

and how the party establishment was ignoring data and societal and demographic trends to stick with an old cadre of useless consultants and out-of-vogue ideas.

But pragmatism undergrid the entire book. And nothing has changed on that

Having been here from 2003/04 and purchasing a 1st edition copy of the book I again responded with anger and wrote:
Yes Kos. Ignoring data nd societal and demographic (4+ / 0-)

trends to stick with an old cadre of useless consultants and out of vogue ideas. Exactly what you are doing right now. Millennial's don't accept third way corporatism nor do they want continued inaction on climate change. Nor do they want the 4th amendment to be continually gutted because of "reasons" that have nothing to do with actually keeping us safe. You think the biggest wave of youth and minorities turned out for a continuation of the Bush era policies? How about a little reflection?  

Now this got me thinking about my place as a Millennial on Dailykos. Considering that Dailykos is predominately older, white, male, and affluent, what place does a 29 year old have on a blog where his progressive views are oft looked upon with scorn, mockery, and continually told that what Millennials desire is not politically possible?

On this blog we are continually discouraged from seeking what is now considered far left but in the 1970s would have been main stream liberalism. There is a great deal of talk about how we can get young voters engaged and how we can win the youth vote. When ideas such as the 15$ min wage are floated about or student loan forgiveness we are told that we have to change the make up the current House of Representative before we can do anything constructive. Well that is not a politically winning message.

My generation tends to be very social liberal as been noted on the front page but what is oft not mentioned is that they are economically far left of the current political system. One of the major things that has kept Millennials engaged is the desire to stop climate change and income inequality.  Millenials have been permanently scarred by the financial crisis and typically believe that social security will not be there for their generation. They like myself believe that climate change presents one of the biggest challenges of our generation and that the current administration who sold the slogan of "Hope and Change" now tinged with cynicism is not doing to do enough to address these systemic problems.  

Well there is one solution to motivation millennials to become a solid voting block for the Democratic party that bypasses all the Republican obstructionism that is continually trotted out as the reason our generation which is swamped in  student debt and forced to take low wage jobshttp://www.theguardian.com/... can't have nice things.

Is it raising the min wage? Nope that requires congressional action in the House. Is it student debt forgiveness? No our party won't even consider that and when our progressive hero Elizabeth Warren talks aboutstudent loan forgiveness it is placed in the context that it will only apply to future students while doing nothing to address the fact that student debt is stopping an entire generation from entering the middle class. Our student loan interest rates are a political bargaining while Wall Street is allowed to barrow money at 0.001% interest.  Is it expanding social security? No it's not. Our Progressive President has offered it as a concession not once, not twice, but three times as a bargaining chip while our minority leader Nancy Pelosi claims in an Orwellian manner that a chained CPI benefit cut is not actually a cut. We have only been saved by the chopping block because the House Republicans are to bat shit racist and crazy to accept a third way corporatist deal because our first black president offered it. For once we can be glad for racism in America.  Is it by unifying behind a Progressive Caucus Budget proposal that the largest voting block in the House has offered up each year and has been proven to be the best proposal with the best solutions to addressing our nations problems but is continually ignored by the White House and media? No. That requires congressional action. Is it raising the min wage to a paltry 10.10 because as Obama has said "It's even catchy to say?" No because as Wisepiper correctly stated:

* [new]  My sons are millenials. (11+ / 0-)

Their question? Who the hell can live on $10.10 per hour?

What seemingly few of my Democratic brethren understand is that a dollar bill can't literally walk into the voting booth and pull the lever. Your only tool for exacting accountability is the casting, or withholding, of your vote. Don't be an enabler.

by WisePiper on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 06:08:30 AM EST

10.10$ is still a poverty wage and a drop in the bucket consider that if wages had kept up with inflation and productivity then the min wage would be 22 dollars an hour. So you can imagine my generations disgust at being told that 15$ an hour would be an economic catastrophe for our 1% job creators. They have put for the same arguments since child labor to justify poverty wages. I mean tipped workers still make 2.13 and have to claim all their tips in the tax returns. So no you won't get the millenials vote and action with half ass measures to fix the greatest gap of wealth and income since the late 1880s.

What is it then? Why are you just bringing up all these links and facts instead of continuing with the meta that has dominated this site for the last week? Well because as I stated before there is one thing that is completely within our power to control and would inspire my generation to remain activists. It is such a small thing but would inspire many who bought hook line and sinker the lye that hope and change would result in more equality for all and a discontinuation of the Bush era torture policies, NSA spying, and Wall Street default swap derivatives. (Which Wall Street is now doing with Renters agreements - what can go wrong there?)

I call upon President Obama to reject the Keystone XL Pipeline.  

Deborah Levoy at Forward on Climate Rally, San Francisco, CA, February  2013.
Keystone XL pipeline route
Keystone protest DC 3-2-14
(Yes I've been to two protests - Yes I've issued my public statement) Now Dailykos - the choice is yours. Since I have to accept the fact that the demographic of this site is older, white, male and affluent and at times far more economically conservative then a great many of my generation are - (I've been to Netroots and there are not many young faces there) - and that we have to first elect better and then more democrats - then we can agree that the ONE thing we truly have in our power to activate the youth vote that WE CAN CONTROL -

Is rejecting the Keystone XL pipeline.  

Can we agree on that or should myself and the younger folk look for a new place to "agitate"?

Originally posted to Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 03:45 PM PDT.

Also republished by Hellraisers Journal, In Support of Labor and Unions, Anti-Capitalist Chat, and Youth Kos 2.0.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  This is to say nothing of the fact of the (19+ / 0-)

    administrations failure to offer a vision for a jobs bill that goes beyond tax cuts for the rich, the continuation of the Bush era tax cuts for temporary unemployment benefits, unemployment, and the NSA spying scandal. Those are however topics for another diary.

    “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

    by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 03:50:14 PM PDT

  •  Keystone XL. If you follow the tag, you will find (8+ / 0-)

    that there have been 1683 diaries on this subject.

    Bill McKibben has been posting here since before he was that Bill McKibben. Before he launched 350.org The movement had its roots here at Daily Kos.

    I think it is safe to say that yes, most people around here are in complete agreement with the need to continue the fight against Keystone XL.

    •  I know that there has been great (15+ / 0-)

      activism on this site related to Keystone XL. It is the single issue that our President has direct control over without having to go through the bat shit crazy house, and our rotating cast of villains in the senate. I'm glad we can agree on this Susan and hope that we can make headway into other subjects that have turned contentious over the last 5 years which beforehand were universally points for our community to rally against. Like torture.

      “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

      by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:28:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We should really deal with the torture issue (4+ / 0-)

        as well. I am sort of gobsmacked that it's still going on. No one here supports it, so why aren't we making more noise about how much we don't support it?

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:27:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This comment really made me think about the (14+ / 0-)

          role of Netroots in the future as a political convention.

          Well, I proposed two sessions a year (36+ / 0-)

          on torture ever year for four years for Netroots Nation, stellar panels with real experts, including Valtin (a psychologist who treats survivors of torture), Dr. Craig Haney (who helped with the Milgram experiments and has spent his career researching and talking about torture in prison), Carter Camp (an AIM leader at Wounded Knee and prison surivor) and Robert Hillary King (the released member of the Angola Three who spent thirty years in solitary confinement). None of my panels were chosen and for three of those years there was no panel that even tangentially touched on torture. Last year, Amnesty proposed a panel which was supposed to tangentially touch on torture. There panel did not have any survivors of torture, and did not have any experts on the effects of torture. That was the panel they chose, in violation of their own guidelines which say that they are supposed to give more weight to grassroots proposals rather than organization proposals. So I have, very sadly, given up on Netroots Nation, which should have been a stellar place to organize and get my voice and Dan's experience heard. Instead, I will be attending another conference in DC, starting next week, which will have some focus on stopping torture and strategizing around that issue.

          Thanks ! (22+ / 0-)

          Literally, it will never happen, because Carter Camp has died.

          Also because I am no longer willing to put my neck out to ask those other experts to participate in a panel, only to have to go back to them months later and tell them that it didn't get chosen, again. If I can find another conference that will allow a similar panel, I will see about proposing it for that conference.

          Ask those in charge of Netroots Nation why they violated their own guidelines. They have never satisfactorily answered that question, in my opinion.

          One of the other panels I proposed was a round-table on getting torture and accountability back on the National Table. I was told that "wouldn't work."

          Truly, those in charge of Netroots Nation don't want to talk about torture, in spite on their high-minded words when I was chosen for a scholarship. The issue is just too dark, and too inconvenient.

                    Standing for justice and accountability,
                                  For Dan,
                                  Heather

          Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

          by Chacounne on Fri Mar 14, 2014 at 06:20:15 PM EST

          [ Parent | Reply to This ]

          I should have been able to be effective here. I should have been able to gather like-minded folks and use my voice and Dan's experience to push forward. Instead, I have been told to shut up.

                  Standing for justice and accountability,
                                For Dan,
                                Heather

          Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

          by Chacounne on Fri Mar 14, 2014 at 05:00:55 PM EST

          If AdamB is on the panel selection committee then he needs to go. Netroots Nation needs to drop the top down structure and become something more innovative. I wrote a diary about it after my experience at Netroots Nation 2012.

          “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

          by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:39:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wow, that is an impressively disingenuous comment (3+ / 0-)

          You know bloody well why.

          No one here supports it, so why aren't we making more noise about how much we don't support it?
          Because your hero in the White House has covered up the investigation and prevented prosecution and exposure of those who perpetrated torture. And that it is currently the cause of a genuine Constitutional crisis because of Obama administration spying on Congress.

          Save your propaganda spin for a more low-information crowd. That is pathetic.

          "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by Kombema on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 09:58:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You think I'm a roxxer, do you... (0+ / 0-)

            and you think that it gives you a right to insult me? For what, the second time in one day.

            That's wrong and insulting, and I will have none of it.

            None.

            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

            by mahakali overdrive on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 10:06:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're quite full of yourself. How indeed is my (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ek hornbeck

              mild criticism of your perspective ANY worse than your blanket desire to toss all the Obama critics out of the blog, as you have made it clear is your wish? That's quite an ugly authoritarian perspective you have. You'd be happy in any variety of un-democratic cultures and political systems, I'd wager.

              "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

              by Kombema on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 11:37:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I remember the excitement that 350.org created (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annieli, Tool, mahakali overdrive

    around here. It would be wonderful if you could bring back that sense of community involvement and support for a cause like this.

  •  Seems there should be much more to agree upon (11+ / 0-)

    than that. Most here, regardless of their age, would agree that corporate control of politicians is bad. Few here are overt racists. I think the thing that is sometimes missing from discourse here is civility and an open mind.

    I share your concern that despite being a liberal bastion, liberal ideas get too much resistance from folks that consider themselves pragmatic. Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. Pragmatic is just another word for entrenched in the system.

    This old man dreams with you and realizes his generation caused most of the problems you and my son will be stuck with. My apologies, and I am listening.

  •  agitating is fine, showing up to vote in higher (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Susan from 29, librarisingnsf, Tool

    numbers would be a real revolution in 2014. Millennials should be more understanding of us old folks who never thought we'd see in our lifetime a person of color become POTUS. The next African American POTUS will find her way much easier. As much as there are disappointments since you presumably started voting during the Bush43 administration, don't follow what is a perennial problem that the left has by being focused on specific actions/issues without making a much deeper analysis of the problem vis. the 1%, and even the XL pipeline. It's not about political possibility as it is realistically destroying the impossible.

    NB: I am only one of these:

    w this got me thinking about my place as a Millennial on Dailykos. Considering that Dailykos is predominately older, white, male, and affluent, what place does a 29 year old have on a blog where his progressive views are oft looked upon with scorn, mockery, and continually told that what Millennials desire is not politically possible?

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:02:29 PM PDT

    •  and all of this is under-girded/undergridded /nt (0+ / 0-)

      Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

      by annieli on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:42:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Didn't that happen in 2008? (0+ / 0-)

      Millenials vote in pretty much exactly the numbers that previous generations have voted, slightly more than that in 2008.

      As far as advice goes "vote" is about the bottom of the barrel.

      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

      by AoT on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 05:46:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think you should pitch kos on starting... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tool, indubitably, doroma, Lonely Texan

    ... a new site called Millennial Kos.

    All of the old white guys here are dying off. This place is becoming the liberal equivalent of Fox News. It's like Sears or JC Penney trying to get hip in their ads.

    "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

    by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:14:53 PM PDT

    •  no Bob, We're really hip like Goodwill (5+ / 0-)

      and are the liberal equivalent of Pravda

      Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

      by annieli on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:22:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That, too. (0+ / 0-)

        "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

        by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:33:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, and I'm also tired of reading about how great (0+ / 0-)

        ... the `60s and early `70s were.

        Fuck, it's as if time stopped.

        "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

        by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:35:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  who writes that stuff (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat

          those years sucked big-time

          Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

          by annieli on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:39:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's not how the 60s and early 70s (10+ / 0-)

          were great Bob. By all accounts they weren't and faced their own set of generational problems. However it was still an age in which wages kept up with productivity and more Americans shared a greater piece of the pie (not meta) then now. It was before the counter revolution took place and liberal politicians were not afraid of espousing more keynesians solutions instead of discredited supply side economics. That is why it is tinged with nostalgia for many including myself when it was before I was born.  

          “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

          by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:09:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Depends when and where you were (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            annieli, Tool, Whatithink, Kombema

            By many accounts, the late 60's and 1970's had all kinds of issues, particularly if you were living in the inner city and experienced the white flight that left the already struggling ghetto neighborhoods left to rot.  However, there were some social gains for many African Americans and women, but many of them were shortchanged economically.  And for children, it was particularly rough as divorce rates skyrocketed.

            I was just a young child during the 1970's, but as I grew up and came of age in the 1980's, my hometown was decimated by the loss of manufacturing jobs which it still never fully recovered from, and I also came of age during the initial rise of AIDS and crack cocaine.  Not to mention the disastrous "War on Drugs" that effectively incarcerated a whole generation on non-white people just for possessing small amounts of illegal drugs.

          •  No use to try and have a real conversation (12+ / 0-)

            with Bob.

            He prefers to put words into people's mouths rather than to actually listen to them and try to respond to what they actually said.

            But kos has set the diolog bar so low  now that the working class end of the Democratic Party might just STFU,  anything we say is now to be ridiculed.

            I was there during the 60s, and 70s. It was a time of hard struggle. I knew folks who got their heads bashed in. But it was a time when we felt that our the struggle was bringing results.

            Nowadays, not so much. Esp economically. I haven't had a raise in ten years. Meanwhile my rent has doubled, a little  at a time, but it has doubled. Everything else has gone up also. My co-workers are in the same boat.  Ditto with my neighbors.

            In the 60s and 70s my former union was winning contract gains. They won fantastic health care coverage with a strike in the 60s, I wasn't a member then, but me and my children sure did benefit from that hard won fight when I joined in the late 70s.

            Then came the Reagan-Bush recession and the slide began, give-backs, cuts in benefits. Of course those cuts and give-backs (in that particular union, Local 49, IUOE) didn't affect me because, by then, I had been out of work for a long time, and eventually had to take a job that paid less than half of what I had been making, and with two children to support, one of them seriously ill.

            This is what the working class has been going thru ever since the 80s, and this is what our children and grandchildren are facing as they become young workers, but that is just another source of amusement to Bob Johnson.

            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

            by JayRaye on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 07:02:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What is your problem? (0+ / 0-)

              "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

              by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 09:43:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I'm in a union and have been most of my adult life (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nada Lemming

              Are you?

              I have organized and supported my fellow union members through extended strikes.

              Have you?

              I thought Jimmy Carter sucked, and, as I wrote in bobswern's diary today, marked the beginning of the end of the Democratic Party being the party of the working (wo)man. Carter paved the way for all Bill Clinton's bullshit.

              Another Clinton in the White House will just be the last shovel of dirt on the Democratic Party coffin. Bill Clinton all but killed it.

              "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

              by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 09:47:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Like I said you don't bother yourself much with (5+ / 0-)

                what people actually say.

                Had you bothered to read my comment, you would know the answer to the question which you are asking.

                God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                by JayRaye on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 09:56:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I read it. (0+ / 0-)

                  You used to be in a union. I'm still in a union. I have been in a union for more than 35 years. Unions are not what they were for a host of reasons. Reagan was the firestarter, but Carter opened the door for him. And Clinton was worse than worthless.

                  It's been all downhill from there for working people.

                  "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                  by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 10:01:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There you go talking to yourself and (5+ / 0-)

                    about yourself and your accomplishments.

                    Demanding answers from me, and not one single thoughtful reply to Tools diary.

                    Typical.

                    God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                    by JayRaye on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 10:25:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)

                      Oh, gee, I feel so bad when I make you unhappy.

                      I told Tool to start a new blog called Millennial Kos because this place is mostly old white guys -- kind of like the audience for Fox News.

                      I bet kos would even fund it.

                      "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                      by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 10:27:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  The issue that Tool and other millennials face (13+ / 0-)

            is having no future at all.  Nothing has hung over the heads of an entire generation like the specter of climate change does for them.  We all owe them a viable future.

            "I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West "It was a really naked declaration of imperialism." ~ Jeremy Scahill on Obama's speech to the UN

            by gulfgal98 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 07:19:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Notice how much we seem to love (9+ / 0-)

              dystopia movies?:) If I ever have kids I want them to have a viable future as well. We owe it to everyone. It's hard not to see the extreme weather and not know something is seriously wrong when we are jumping back and forth between the teens and mid fifties.  

              “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

              by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 08:01:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Tool, as a 60-something female DFH (10+ / 0-)

                i am in the same boat with you.

                Pragmatic is just another word for entrenched in the system.
                We tried our best back then, with huge peace marches against the continuation of the Vietnam war and fearless underground newspapers that raged against the machine.
                It felt like progress at the time but, as we see now, our actions resulted in just a tiny step forward while the men behind the curtain were grinding out new avenues to suppress and hoodwink all of us.

                Little did we know that the machine was a tiny tinker toy compared to the beast it has become.

                I had step sons, now in their mid-thirties, that are also mired in tuition debt, altho not as steep a debt as people trying to get an education in the last 10 years.

                I do not have an answer for you or anyone else.
                Trying and trying, for almost 50 years, has resulted in the quagmire nightmare we struggle with now.

                I do not wish your future, or lack thereof, on any young person.
                We need a radical paradigm shift in our culture and i do not have a clue how to achieve that goal.

                'How like fish we are: ready, nay, eager, to seize upon whatever new thing.......And how we rue our haste, finding the gilded morsel to contain a hook". ALDO LEOPOLD - A Sand County Almanac

                by flowerfarmer on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 06:08:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Well, no shit. (0+ / 0-)

            But there were plenty of problems, too, including (another) never-ending war, assassinations, riots and more.

            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

            by Bob Johnson on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 09:43:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I'm older, white, male and affluent (21+ / 0-)

    ... And I was right there with you.  I think the comment you cite was a response to mine.  And I accused Markos of becoming what he rebelled against in my response to that comment.

    I'm beginning to think your generation is the one that will have to get us out of this good cop- bad cop trap we find ourselves in.  And you're not going to do it by continuing to shut up and vote for the lesser evil.  I'm old, but I'll be supporting you all the way.

    We have always been at war with al Qaeda.

    by Dallasdoc on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:28:17 PM PDT

  •  I don't think you'll find (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tool, freakofsociety

    too many people here of any age who favor Keystone. Or Chained CPI or the current minimum wage or high student debt or unemployment or gutting the 4th Amendment. I'm not sure why you're suggesting otherwise.

    Maybe you are one of those people here who seem to focus their attention on the people who disagree with them, trying to stamp out each and every one and ignoring the fact that the overwhelming majority don't.

    Now Dailykos - the choice is yours.
    No, it's yours. You've issued a ridiculous ultimatum, if for no other reason than that there's no way for us to answer it. Do you want 900k avowals that we oppose Keystone? Would 100k suffice?

    If you feel that total consensus on any issue is a prerequisite for your generation remaining here, I think you're setting yourself up to leave. We will never have complete consensus about anything. And guess what - if you decamp to some Millennial conclave you won't find consensus there either. The only way to get political consensus is to be part of some tiny cadre where orthodoxy is enforced.

    Perhaps you should have put up a poll on Keystone. You could even break it down by generation. What do you think the results would be? What result would satisfy you?

    Anyway, how exactly do you think young people are going to stop Keystone by themselves, if all of us together are unable to stop it?

    •  denise b, your implication seems to be (8+ / 0-)

      that because the overwhelming majority of us kossacks are likely opposed to KXL and chained CPI and the gutting of the 4th Amendment and growing inequality of income and opportunity, we're doing our job simply by railing against them.

      You know what? Our elected officials really don't give a shit how loudly and how often we complain, as long as they know, come November, we'll vote for their asses anyway.

      Come back to us when you have an effective plan for getting them to take our complaints seriously.

      What seemingly few of my Democratic brethren understand is that a dollar bill can't literally walk into the voting booth and pull the lever. Your only tool for exacting accountability is the casting, or withholding, of your vote. Don't be an enabler.

      by WisePiper on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:45:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ME come back to YOU? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annominous

        I don't have a plan. I don't have a plan for anything. I feel helpless to influence anything going on in Washington.

        The diarist is suggesting that he will take his marbles and depart for more congenial if not more effective pastures. Is that a plan?

        •  Well Dailykos is on the path to becoming NoNo (13+ / 0-)

          and that is something I do not want. Do you remember when this place started and we were all in agreement over the outing of Valerie Plame, the Downing Street Memos, that Bush was illegally installed in the White House by the Supreme Court, that Warrant less wireless surveillance were bad things, that having John Conyers as a chairmen of the oversight comity would mean actual investigations into the 40+ Bush administration scandals, that Guantanamo bay needed to be closed and labeling people enemy combatants needed to stop, that we had the opportunity to expand Social Security rather than Bush's attempt to privatize it after we regained the House, that Impeachment might be on the table due to Patrick Fitzgerald's investigations and so forth?

          I do.

          Something changed after 2008 on this site and we need to get back to it or millenials will consider this place nothing more than a fund raising apparatus and a mouth piece for the DNC and get their info from the Daily Show, Twitter, and Facebook.      

          “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

          by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:17:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's an effective plan if our elected officials (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tool, Kombema, gooderservice, triv33

          believe him, and further believe that millions of others are likewise disinclined to reward bad behavior.

          What seemingly few of my Democratic brethren understand is that a dollar bill can't literally walk into the voting booth and pull the lever. Your only tool for exacting accountability is the casting, or withholding, of your vote. Don't be an enabler.

          by WisePiper on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:30:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  There is only one person who (12+ / 0-)

      has the power to stop the Keystone XL Pipeline and that is the leader of the free world.President Obama can activate a great many voters for the 2014 mid term elections. If he approves this pipeline then we will not make gains in the House until 2016, 2018, or 2020 in spite of out voting congressional republicans due to their gerrymandered majority.

       It would be in essence throwing his base a bone after allowing the Bush tax cuts to go forward, having lowest number prosecutions of financial crimes in spite of the biggest economic collapse since the Great Depression than Clinton, Bush Jr, or Bush Senior, the force feeding of Guantanamo Bay prisoners (which is torture renamed - long term religious fasting ), secret kill lists, drone strikes which make a new generation of anti-american sentiment in the middle east, homeowners garnering little if no relief as evictions continue to go on after 5 years after the crash, the continuation of Bush era torture programs, and that income inequality and climate change continue not to be addressed by the administration and has adopted the "all of the above" strategy which is woefully unappealing to my generation.

      Those are just a few things in which the left should be pretty pissed off about. I see that anger here but it has been dismissed under various guises as being counter productive to the mission of this site.

      I'd like to build a bit of consensus on something we agree on and have seen a massive amount of activism from Dailykos regarding the pipeline. We don't need congressional approval for it and it appeals to all demographics on this site except for the energy conservative side of Dailykos.

      With Keystone we've already had mass demonstrations, arrests,  petitions, pointed out the fallacies within the corporation written environmental impact statement, and a thousands more who have signed up to stop the actual construction of the pipeline while being labeled terrorists by the NSA, FBI, CIA, and every alphabet organization.

      As a community we can continue to fight for change. I don't expect total consensus but I grow tired of the generalities of wanting a pony or being unrealistic.

      “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

      by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 04:57:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well (0+ / 0-)
        If he approves this pipeline then we will not make gains in the House until 2016, 2018, or 2020 in spite of out voting congressional republicans due to their gerrymandered majority.
        Not sure what you mean by this. We can expect to lose seats in the House regardless, but I don't think Keystone is a factor at all. Nor do I see Obama as caring about throwing the left any bones. It's been made abundantly clear that the progressive vote is taken completely for granted, and for good reason: Democrats have many more votes to gain in the center than they have votes to lose from the left. They're not going to be throwing us any bones. They don't need to.

        If what you're looking for is action, you're probably right to think this isn't the place for it. DKos isn't about activism and isn't even about electing more and better Democrats. It's a place to get information and interact with people. You can try to change that or you can find someplace else that suits you better, but all you've done here is write yet one more diary complaining about us.

  •  My dream (9+ / 0-)

    As an old, white, affluent Boomer who recommended Denise's diary (but not male!):

    1. I'd say pretty much 90% of the site agrees with you on Keystone and climate change in general.

    2. The expansion (and protection) of Social Security is crucial to our demographic future.

    3. BY FAR the biggest problems for your generation (outside of the universal one of planetary and human survival because of climate change) is student debt, shit jobs and crap pay.

    If those in #3 don't get solved, there is very little hope for the future. Because the truth is—as we see in places like Kentucky or West Virginia and their reliance on coal mining—when you can barely feed yourself day to day, worrying about something further off like climate change feels like a luxury. If you can't feed yourself or your kids this week without taking a shit job for crap pay to pay off student debt, how can we expect you to put something that is universal in scope and not immediate in the forefront of your mind? Particularly when the efforts of one individual is one drop in a vast ocean of industrial waste?

    What I took from Denise's diary was quite different from what almost everyone else took from it, it seems. I took: If you honestly believe the Democratic Party is irredeemable, hopelessly sold-out, what is the point of being here?

    I happen to believe the Democratic Party sucks. A lot. Big time. But I don't think it's irredeemable. I think it can be pressured to return to its roots. Yeah, probably I'm an idealist. But people like Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown give me hope. And every time we claw back one person like that, get them in a place where their voice can be heard even if their views don't turn into law immediately, we win.

    Now ... my dream.

    Could you imagine the power if the Boomer generation and Millennials joined forces on #2 and #3 above? If AARP and Boomers fought like hell for student loan forgiveness, raising the minimum wage, quality job creation? And if Millennials fought for secure health and retirement benefits for the older generation? (If for no other reason than this: Do you really want to be supporting your parents AND be paying off debt in your 40's?)

    Solving the immediate income insecurity problems of the two generations would allow us to focus as an enlightened and secure nation on the huge problem of climate change.

    The Democratic Party is the tool I'm using to try and get these changes to become real. Does it suck? God, yes. In so many ways I can't even begin. But's it's the only possibly effective tool I see at hand, and (crazy me) I think enough of us, if we can unite, can make it a more useful and honorable tool for reform.

    And I guess ... that's why I'm here. And why I hope to God more Millennials like you stick around, to give the energy and ideas and momentum to the party that first came up with Social Security and overtime and Medicare and fighting for the disempowered.

    •  I think the biggest worry about Millennials (11+ / 0-)

      is that they're just not going to wait for the Democratic party to go back to its historic 20th c. roots in economic justice and equality. They'll just stop voting like most everyone else who is just trying to keep a roof over their heads. 99% of the problems you mention in your post would be solved by expanding the Great Society. But where do we find a Democratic Party talking like that?

      Folks around here thinking that demographics alone are going to keep Democrats in office are whistling past the graveyard. The party has got to get beyond its sclerotic 1990s DLC-third way hangover and make something of itself again.

      [And, if anyone wants to believe that HLC represents some way of doing that, I'll be more than happy to bet you that Millennials will be even less a percentage of the Democratic Party when she assumes office than when she leaves. 16 years of two presidents failing to Go Big on economic justice is going to kill whatever is left of millennials and Latinos---And you can also bet that GOPers will finally figure out populism again when Dems don't.]

      •  I have three siblings who are millenials (7+ / 0-)

        Guess how many vote? Two. One voted for Ron Paul because he thought he was a more "Left" candidate (he's the youngest sibling).

        Guess how many are extremely political? All of them. We're all extremely political in my family.

        I couldn't agree more that you're right that we can't take demographics for granted. And also, no, younger people aren't inherently political. They're pretty apathetic in many cases. I work at a University and have about 100 students who are 18-22ish. When I talk about politics in passing, or even things happening in the news, few have any idea about this. I just taught a class on Wednesday of 25 students who weren't aware of the Ukrainian-Russian conflict. I asked why. They said because they didn't read the news. I recommended they do that.

        That's what we're going to be up against. Know it and yes, we need to learn from it well.

        Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

        by mahakali overdrive on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:23:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're right (5+ / 0-)

        Demographics alone won't solve the problem.

        And I agree that we've got to go big. Great Society big. I'm with you all the way on that.

        But I think the only way we can do that and make it stick is through the Democratic Party, reforming it, taking it over.

        And yeah, the change might be too slow to capture Millennials. At least, right now.

        But I just don't see a viable alternative. Dropping out of the political system isn't going to do it. Historically, third parties haven't been able to do it.

        Imperfect as it is, I just don't see any other entity with enough leverage to change our direction. At least the Democratic Party has a historical allegiance to protecting the disempowered. And I think the party is in a time lag with America here—less so than the Republicans, though, which makes me think it can be reformed.

        And I honestly think the Occupy movement had a HUGE effect that we're not even seeing the full culmination of yet. Before that movement, there really was not even lip service paid to the real problems of income inequality. But a pressure was exerted there, and we're seeing it in rhetoric of pols now.

        As for HRC ... again, I think pressure can be exerted if we're united to push push push to the left. And I also don't think the president is the be all and end all of political representation. But I do know this: If the appointment of the next couple of SCOTUS appointments comes down to HRC or Rand Paul/Ted Cruz/Chris Christie/fill in your nightmare Republican here ... I want HRC.

        If a more left and viable candidate emerges in the Democratic Party, I'm SO there. But if not—we push.

        •  I don't disagree with you at all about the Supreme (7+ / 0-)

          Court. I do believe that Clarence Thomas needs to be impeached and disbarred due to his misconduct on the bench and refusal to recuse himself when ruling on casing where he has a clear conflict of interest. Especially the fact that he somehow forgot to check off a box indicating his wifes financial gains from outside lobbying groups for years. I forget who was leading that crusade? Oh yeah. Anthony Weiner. What happened to him?

          “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

          by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:32:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You're thinking like someone (7+ / 0-)

          who is politically informed.

          How is your average low-info, overworked, totally paycheck-to-paycheck millenial going to look at HRC? They aren't going to see her "shift." They already know her. They aren't going to consider the SCOTUS even if they ought to. They're going to be lucky to make it to vote, and if they do, they will have a very specific reason they are voting.

          That has been my experience at any rate, partially influenced by being in a blue area where everything has been stagnant economically since the late '90's.

          The issues are seen as different: the environment, war, social equality, and economic justice take on a new tenor for this group, IMHO.

          And for me as well, I suppose.

          Even my BUSINESS MAJORS are opposed to most capitalist crap if you start talking with them. Most are going into business not to make money, at least not at my university, but to try to reform the ethics of business. It's hopeful. This has been because of Occupy because this wasn't like this two years ago, seriously. About 30% of my students are Business Majors, BTW, so I hear a lot from them.

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:35:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, I have a skewed pool to look at (4+ / 0-)

            Four Millennial children. Two girls, two boys.

            HRC isn't left enough for them, obviously. But I DO notice the girls are somewhat enamored by the thought of a female president. So she'll get them.

            The youngest male is Silicon Valley mixture of liberal and libertarian, has always voted Democratic, probably will next time—the only risk was Rand Paul, and his civil rights crap shut that down for this son.

            Oldest son ... in NC, non-political, somewhat caught by the climate there ... probably won't vote.

            But I do think you may be underestimating the POWER of having a female candidate at the head of the ticket for Millennial women. At least with my daughters, it's as empowering to them as Obama's candidacy was for African Americans, and that was powerful indeed.

            •  I don't underestimate that (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              peregrine kate, Tool, flowerfarmer

              I think that's perhaps the only real appeal that she holds for millenials. Also, she's been great on gay rights. So I imagine she will be able to be appealing there as well.

              She's obviously not going to appeal to all women. I'm a woman. She doesn't appeal to me. My sister is a woman. She didn't vote at all. Her objection to HRC was based on the Israel-Palestine situation as well as her hawkish comments about Iran, IIRC. She voted for Obama in '08 but not in the recent election due to her concern about Gitmo and Occupy Wall Street.

              You must know if in '08 if HRC got a larger % of the female youth vote than Obama? They broke it down, no? I can't remember. It would be good ot know.

              My students who don't know about the current situation in the Ukraine do, however, know a LOT about Occupy. They grew up with it. They were in high school. They're pretty much fluent in talking about the Occupy Movement and economic inequality. It was in the air for a long time. I think next semester, I'm going to require students to read the news every day for some assignment or another because it's maddening how socially out of it they are.

              They sure know about Andy Lopez' murder and the murder of Oscar Grant, as well as the Trayvon Martin murder. So these are the things that, for whatever reason, seem to have captured them. I am very specifically talking about 18-22 year olds in the Bay Area on this one (although my sister is in NY).

              Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

              by mahakali overdrive on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 06:04:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Well stated, Susan (5+ / 0-)

      and I'm on the cusp of Gen X and Gen Y and about 100 years younger than a lot of people here, so some of my close friends are millenials; my partner is arguably a millennial.

      I think that Denise's diary was fine. It didn't offend me. I'm not even a Democrat but a Socialist. It still didn't offend me because I know Denise is also a former Marxist herself. I didn't see her diary when it came up because I work all the time (it's spring break, so I'm off). I don't think the characterizations in this diary are accurate -- I teach rhetoric (amongst other really exciting things), and I'm having difficulty following the line of reasoning being offered about that diary. I thought the offense struck me as out of line with the diary. I did not understand it even if I don't agree with the military and tipped the diary that inspired Denise's rant in the first place. Denise didn't hold that against me; we just exchanged a nice "hi, hello" this morning.

      I often notice a giant set of assumptions made about my politics from some of the older folks here that are in no way true, where I get pegged as some kind of Centrist despite being a stolid radical and activist as much as possible, very grassroots stuff. I learned through local politics that you have to work with local party politicos if you want anything done, and usually Democrats are better to work with, especially the more Progressive ones. I was never attracted to the Party other than that I like its platform about social equality, and also, it tends to be less batshit crazy than the GOP, so I make sure to vote now.

      Things that seem super-evil like the Keystone Pipeline are hard to really fathom. They are literally outside of the range of possibility for being morally feasible in any sense. There is no excuse for backing something so stupid. None. So that's a losing ticket.

      I also think that Hillary Clinton, if nominated, is going to have a hard time picking up the millenial vote because she represents another world that is not seen as edenic but regressive. I know of no one younger who supports her at all in my area. She does not inspire enthusiasm or reach younger folks much. That's going to be something we need to really think about because we're going to lose votes. Not to Republicans, but to apathy. I know I'm not inspired whatsoever to vote for her tired DLC schtick. I'm equally underwhelmed by Bill, who however much we want to say does not equate with Hillary, frankly does have an immediate association, and when I think of Bill, I think of a creepy misogynistic lech who I don't want anywhere near the oval office. It makes me question the "feminist" credibility of his wife, to be blunt. It's like talking the talk vs. walking the walk. And someone who voted for the Iraq War?

      So we need to find a more appealing candidate whose views match those of more younger people. I'm on the younger side but also work at a university, and NO ONE is interested in elections here except there was a small murmur of interest in 2008 that I did see. And it was small. The day Moonbeam was elected, I don't recall hearing a single mention of it by a student. I reminded them to vote too and most (like 95%) had never bothered to re-register when they moved from home. Now California is a weird place in terms of how laid back it can be, but seriously, this isn't going to work out too well if we don't consider the Millenial demographic. I have to agree with the diarist about that. I think that's what shot Obama over the edge, wasn't it? That and the Latino and African-American vote?

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:19:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with your comment 100% Susan (5+ / 0-)

      . I am in the camp that the current Democratic party indeed sucks but is not irredeemable.

      “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

      by Tool on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:20:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think it's unredeemable. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tool, lostinamerica, gooderservice

        But would obviously welcome it with open arms if it truly decided to take on the concentration of wealth that is the defining problem of our times, driving pretty much every other problem, especially Climate Change.

        Trust, but verify. - Reagan
        Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

        When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

        by Words In Action on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:32:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is not to say (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tool, lostinamerica, gooderservice

          I don't vote or don't vote Democratic. I do. I just find it hopelessly inadequate for dealing with the situation and see no redemption for the D's even trying to do something approaching the adequate. They and most of their supporters are too enmeshed in the corrupt system to even know their is a problem, let alone truly want to do something substantive about it. Nobody wants to risk anything, especially not their own earnings, by challenging the status quo on any scale, much less the massive scale required. Nothing else has a prayer.

          Frankly, the actions (or lack thereof) of mainstream Ds demonstrates that they really don't believe in the danger of Climate Change much more than the Rs. If they did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

          Trust, but verify. - Reagan
          Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

          When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

          by Words In Action on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:39:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yay! (3+ / 0-)

        Let's reform it. Seriously.

        With Millenial energy/insight and Boomer experience/bucks, this can happen.

        I honestly believe that. (I should have outgrown this wide-eyed "we can change the world," I guess, but I haven't. At least I'll die fighting.)

        There really is so much depressing about the party, but I just refuse to think of the party as something "out there," totally incapable of being influenced.  I am the roots of the party. You are the roots of the party. If for no other reason, our unification and pressure is going to be something to be reckoned with, even if it doesn't immediately prevail. We will be there every fucking moment reminding them of why they got elected, and what we expect from them.

        We will be talking politics and policy with co-workers, family friends. Shooting off emails, joining protests if we can, making ourselves loud and obnoxious and united.

        I want them to FEAR US. And I want them to change.

    •  ARRRG - come on. (6+ / 0-)
      If you honestly believe the Democratic Party is irredeemable, hopelessly sold-out, what is the point of being here?
      NOBODY HERE FUCKING BELIEVES THAT. THAT is the fucking problem - or one big one - with Denise's diary.

      I'd argue that 98% here VOTE Dem - the most important thing - and a whole bunch work to simply make it better. Those accusations are offensive and really destructive.

    •  Susan, we boomers are TIRED (7+ / 0-)

      We have been fighting for 50 years.
      See my post above.

      One step forward, 10 steps back.

      I am in tears reading Tools diary- this is what we have achieved for decades of struggle?

      We need our elected officials to step up for us BIGTIME and NOW.

      We cannot wait another 10 or 20 years. Or even 2.

      'How like fish we are: ready, nay, eager, to seize upon whatever new thing.......And how we rue our haste, finding the gilded morsel to contain a hook". ALDO LEOPOLD - A Sand County Almanac

      by flowerfarmer on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 06:21:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks, Tool. Well said. (10+ / 0-)

    As one of the middle-aged demographic on this site (I am slightly older than Markos, but you know that--we've met) I would agree that my age group is, on the whole, way more economically conservative than either you or I.

    Then again, I'm not as affluent as some of them. On the other hand, when I WAS much more affluent, I was still a raving commie.

    Pope Francis: the Thumb of Christ in the eyes of the Pharisees.

    by commonmass on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 05:18:44 PM PDT

  •  Kos's "pragmatism" comment is almost comical. (4+ / 0-)
    The book was about pragmatism (25+ / 0-)

    and how the party establishment was ignoring data and societal and demographic trends to stick with an old cadre of useless consultants and out-of-vogue ideas.

    But pragmatism undergrid the entire book. And nothing has changed on that

    So - there isn't *still a similar problem with the party establsihment? Is that honestly what he's implying here?

    And to note: The comments about how Kos is "One of them now! He joined the system!" are dumb. Not helpful, not reality-based, not a good way to go with this at all.

  •  Excellent diary. (13+ / 0-)

    went over and read that comment thread and was shocked by kos' careless disregard for what you had to say. He makes it plain that he couldn't give two shits for actual dialog with you.

    but that seems to be the way things are going around here, sad to say.

    I'm an older white woman, but definitely not affluent. Oh, I'll do alright on social security as long as I'm physically able to do my job on a part-time basis. Lifting is involved, so who knows how long I can do it.

    Also, in my younger days I was a single mother, and that was a real struggle. Some very hard times of unemployment just after divorce and then again during the Reagan-Bush recession (which was an actual depression in our industry, construction, 25% to 30% long term unemployment).

    Then to come here and be insulted for opposing Democrats who cut benefits to poor people! Yeah right, we're purity trolls for wanting people not to be homeless and to be able to eat. This is a sad, sad day for the Democratic Party. Glad FDR and Eleanor are not around to see this day.

    Actually the times of greatest progress for the working class was when the Socialist and Communist where well organized. The Socialist during the Progressive Era of 1910-1915, and the Communist during the New Deal. They kept the Democratic Party a bit more honest then it otherwise might have been at the time.

    Very much weighing whether I want to stay or go. That rant of DOV's was really an ugly one. And kos comes in and supports it, inviting the affluent pragmatist around here to attack and berate those of us who have very valid reasons to put poverty and economic concerns at the top of the list of things we hate, because we and our families, our friends, and our neighbors, are the ones most impacted by the betrayal of Democrats on those issues. Poverty was not even on the long list of DOV's hates.

    But if the "pragmatism" of the affluent Democrats who support the corporatist Democrats is the view that is officially sanctioned at DK, then that is a good thing to know.

    Oh, they'll take what little money we have to give them, of course, they'll take our hours of phone banking and block-walking, but will they listen to what we have to say about the direction of the Party? Hell no. STFU and embrace the suck, peon. We are the useful idiots of the Democratic Party, and, now, apparently of Daily Kos also.

    God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

    by JayRaye on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 06:37:30 PM PDT

  •  Your post seems to have rattled the hornets nest (8+ / 0-)

    Saw postings on twitter and facebook bewailing the overtaking of DK by "emoprogs"

    I don't think they realize they have already lost.

  •  If you DON'T challenge conventional wisdom (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tool, Bryce in Seattle

    we have failed you.  You were supposed to be able to see the 'bullshit' flag from a mile away.  

    Joy shared is doubled. Pain shared is halved. Spider Robinson

    by nolagrl on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 08:12:54 PM PDT

  •  Okay (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tool

    I would have recced this had you not regurgitated all that meta data stuff...

    "Disappointment is anger for wimps," -Dr. Gregory House

    by freakofsociety on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 08:28:06 PM PDT

  •  Tool, your comments in the AMA thread were GREAT! (5+ / 0-)

    Understandably angry, but full of well-articulated arguments.

    Check out boldprogressives.org .  Take a look at their 'Candidates' page.  Check out their 'News' pages.  Read this interview with the founders --

    http://brooklynquarterly.org/...

    There are real Progressives accomplishing real change and electing Better Democrats.  

    I'll have to read the rest of your diary later, after I get back home.

    And btw please read the Congressional Progressive Caucus' new 'Better Off Budget'.  Don't have a link handy, but Common Dreams has had some articles on it this week (it was released Mar 12).

    Your generation will change the world.  And here's a tip from an oldster, something that's  good to learn young: "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."

    •  Thank you Cronewit, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, CroneWit, 3goldens

      I would have responded earlier but I am at work right now. I've always found you to be one of the most reasoned articulately spoken writers on this site. Your comments are always insightful.

      “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

      by Tool on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 12:45:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh my goodness. How nice of you to say so! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens

        Really.  Thank you.

        I'm still busy with real-world stuff, so it might be tomorrow before I can give your diary the attention it deserves.  

        But don't let yourself be discouraged; Take Heart.  There are real people working very effectively to elect Better Democrats -- which means a place exists for you and your cohort.  Look around.  You'll find it.

  •  As a 44 year-old Democrat, (0+ / 0-)

    I am with you 100%. Climate change is simply not being handled well enough by the current crop of candidates and we need to change that. Your generation, more than mine, will feel the terrible effects of what is coming.

    I don't think that telling millenails that they aren't welcome if they aren't willing to modify their opinion is terribly intelligent. Your views are obviously progressive, and telling progressives to get out is not an intelligent political strategy.

    For awhile Democrats had to compete for money by esssentially becoming moderate Republicans, but that time is over. Americans want and need a party that will help them rebuild the middle class. It would be politically short-sighted to fail to acknowledge that.

    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence then knowledge. Charles Darwin

    by martianexpatriate on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:35:44 AM PDT

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site