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Rob Halford, Judas Priest
Just a gratuitous shot of the Metal God, Rob Halford. He has nothing to do with this diary.
I love music. I mean I really love it. I play guitar (poorly, but I get an A for effort), I go see live bands whenever I can—especially local talent. There really isn’t a genre of music that I don’t like, but if there is one style I like above the rest it is heavy metal. I cut my teeth on metal music when I was a teen dealing with an alcoholic parent and staring down the barrel of a future that I really did not want. I found solace in the lyrics and screaming power chords of songs written by Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Accept, Metallica, Motley Crue, Black Sabbath, and Ozzy Osbourne just to name a few. Today, that same music takes me back to my youth, makes me feel young again.

Even today, some 30 years later, I still keep up on my heavy metal heroes. While I am no longer a 16-year-old kid reading Circus magazine over my lunch hour, I do follow several bands on Facebook so that I can keep up with the comings and goings of my favorites. So it was no surprise when Robb Flynn’s (singer/guitarist for Machine Head) blog popped up in my feed. What I was not prepared for was an anti-union rant about the music industry.

The post starts out innocently enough and even had me reminiscing about paying 10 bucks to see Judas Priest on their Defenders of the Faith tour:

He was telling me about a show Journey (the opener!), killed it, and they got 4 encores, the support band got 4 encores! Then the headliner, Montrose, got 5 ENCORES! Montrose didn't stop playing until 2:30 in the morning, everyone stayed, no one would even dare consider leaving and people experienced some of the best music of their lives.

An opener getting encores, crazy...

And the venue allowed things like this to happen. The venue just kept the bands rolling.

Not only that, but all of the shows at Winterland were $4.50.

4 dollars and 50 cents…..18 freakin’ quarters!

Please read below the fold for more on this story.

Wow, sounds like a great show! Wish I could have seen it back in the day. Unfortunately, this is the high point of this blog post. It goes downhill from here.

I tell you right now though, there isn't a band out there who would play til 2:30 AM nowadays, let alone find a major venue that would even ALLOW such a thing.
While he is right about major venues, I know a lot of little bars in Wisconsin that bring in a band and they will play through to bar time. But we are not talking about the Harmony or the High Noon Saloon. We are talking big venues.
Venues these days are mostly run with Union workers. In most major cities, you have to take breaks during the day, where a band can't even sound check for an hour because the union workers need a "break." Nowadays if you play 1 minute past 11PM at any of the large Union venues, it costs the band $1,000 dollars a minute. When we were out with Metallica playing arenas they regularly play 20 minutes past 11:00PM, and they regularly paid $20,000 to do so.

Only the Metallica's and Pearl Jam's can pull things like this. Bands that have sold millions of records, and they can afford it.

Now this is where he lost me. The reason those unions are in place is not to screw the bands, but to protect the worker. If I work at a concert venue and the show runs 20 minutes over who is going to pay me overtime? The venue has contracted for a certain amount of time, in that time is labor costs. If you go over that time the labor has to stay there, and someone has to pay for that labor. I would also like to point out that these union workers at these venues also have homes and families. I assume that they would like to be able to go home and spend time with them.

Let’s go back to the Journey/Montrose show that Mr. Flynn was discussing in the first part of his blog post. The one where there were so many encores that the show went on until 2:30 AM. Did he ever think that the reason the unions came in and negotiated breaks and end times was because of shows that went on to the wee morning hours? These union workers do not work for free. I would not expect Machine Head to sign a contract to play for two hours and I come in and demand that they play for four hours while only receiving two hours worth of pay, and Mr. Flynn should not expect the union workers at the venues he plays at to work 12 hours for eight hours pay.

Now his rant is about how screwed up the music industry is today—he will get no argument from me on that; however, to blame unions for the problem is like saying teachers and other public servants caused the Great Recession.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Labor on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:14 PM PDT.

Also republished by Protest Music, An Ear for Music, and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  If the music industry is "screwed up" (47+ / 0-)

    It's the fault of the One Percent. Not unions.

    You can blame Clear Channel All-Bieber-all-the-time, or blame the RIAA for their obsessive money-grubbing, or whatever. But not "the unions."

    And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

    by Pale Jenova on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:21:54 PM PDT

    •  Plenty of blame to go around (15+ / 0-)

      And while Clear Channel, Live Nation/Ticketmaster, RIAA, ASCAAP, BMI, the major labels all deserve plenty of scorn, it's important to remember that the Biebers, Kanyes, Gagas and all the rest signed onto it, and either went into it knowing what they were getting into, or are mentally incompetent. There's just no way for anybody to not know by now how messed up things are.

      In the end, it's the music fans who suffer. Well, the ones that haven't figured out that there's music being made by people who don't have major label record deals at least.

      First they came for the farm workers, and I said nothing.

      by Hannibal on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:28:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The artists are groomed and forced into (15+ / 0-)

        doing things the way of the label. And just as importantly virtually no artists know what they're getting into. There is a huge misunderstanding on the part of most people as to what it means to get signed to a major label. For most people it doesn't mean a lot, and many are tricked and sometimes never even get to record an album because they've signed a letter of intent which means they have virtually no room to negotiate.

        If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

        by AoT on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:34:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't buy that (8+ / 0-)

          Horror stories about the music industry, written by insiders, have been all over the internet for years. Beyond that, you have to have a serious mental handicap to sign something from a multinational corporation without having a lawyer read it and explain it to you first.

          It's easy to put the lion's share of the blame on the labels, but the people who sign on with them are thinking a lot more about fame and fortune than they are about making music. They're not innocent in all of this. At all.

          First they came for the farm workers, and I said nothing.

          by Hannibal on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:42:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Unfortunately it's true (18+ / 0-)

            We'r talking about people who are fairly young and often haven't been deeply involved in the music industry or even sometimes the music scene. And the labels are very misleading. People who should know better will sign with an A & R guy because it's getting signed to a major and it's "making it". Just because the stories are out there doesn't mean that people have heard them.

            Either way, the majority of artist that sign to a label get screwed. You can blame them for that, but I'm putting the blame on the people doing the screwing, the labels.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:51:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's easy for you to be condescending. (0+ / 0-)

            Knowing what you know. It's too bad not everyone has the advantage of your specialized knowledge. Thus allowing you to look down your nose at them.

            If you don't watch news, you're un-informed. If you watch Fox news, you're mis-informed. (paraphrasing Mark Twain)

            by edg on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:57:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hardly specialized knowledge (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Bill W, rocksout, chrisculpepper

              How anybody manages to make it to puberty without knowing that the music industry screws people over is inconceivable. Anybody in this day and age interested in a career in music will undoubtedly have used Google, and will undoubtedly find many, many horror stories. They sign it knowing full well what they're getting into.

              Sure, it's a lot easier to just blame the record labels and CC for all of it, but the 'artists' need to take some responsibility for it as well. As do the consumers of music. Do you really think that it's the record labels causing insane ticket prices? Do you really think some middle aged CEO at a record label goes to bed proud of the contributions to music people like Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber and Kanye West have made? They put out crappy music because that's what sells. So yeah, those who buy the crap have a hand in it too.

              First they came for the farm workers, and I said nothing.

              by Hannibal on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 07:05:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Record labels don't really hold as much power (0+ / 0-)

                Over the artist as they did in the past. Also, one of the main reasons ticket prices are so high is that bands started demanding exceedingly high guarantees.

                "Onward through the fog!" - Oat Willie

                by rocksout on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 09:04:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Is this what they call "blaming the victim?" (4+ / 0-)

            Why yes, yes I think it is.

            Early to rise and early to bed Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead. --Not Benjamin Franklin

            by Boundegar on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 02:11:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They're not victims (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rocksout, OrganicChemist

              Maybe as far back as the mid '90s you could make that claim, but at this point, no. And I'm not only blaming them, just pointing out that they share in the blame. They're not innocent in all of this.

              First they came for the farm workers, and I said nothing.

              by Hannibal on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 07:07:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  someone asks you to be turned into a pointless (0+ / 0-)

                pop star, throwing piles of money at your jacket. Most people won't turn it down. I don't know what you're talking about. Hector what'shisname aka Bruno Mars is an example. Factory created music. Do you actually think you'd get any distribution or promotion if you didn't play along. If you don't, you're drowned out by the Bruno Mars machine on the radio. Yeah there are other places to make your career, but a cult following at best is what you'll get. Morrissey can't find a record label. There are several others of his caliber (and his recent albums are top notch) that can't get distribution. He'll go on TV talk shows and play, you tube. I don't get you blaming the musicians when Clear Channel and the record companies are by far much worse than the musicians.

          •  As if they have a choice (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bryduck, daddybunny

            to quote the judge in a case in (somebody - sorry, it was twenty years ago) v Yellow Cab (Santa something, CA - like I said) "The right to starve is not a right."

        •  Most musicians back in the day (9+ / 0-)

          were so starry-eyed it was unbelievable. I managed a band for a while (kids: do not try this at home. Do not do this!) and the singer one time told me he would sign any major label contract without reading it, just to be signed.

          Now, of course, with the labels signing hardly anybody who wasn't groomed through one of these American Idol type shows or through the Disney machine, some musicians are more realistic.

          One thing that has happened is that information about contracts and deals has become more available. In the ’80s, you basically had little way of knowing what was a standard clause in a contract and what could be negotiated. You could get your local lawyer but he might not know either. Many starry-eyed bands got a recommendation for a lawyer from the label, without stopping to think it was the label that got him his work so of course he was really working for the label.

          Sure, there were a handful of books but basically it was hard to find information about what you were dealing with.

          That started to change with the advent of music industry conferences like South by Southwest and CMJ in New York and their offshoots and local music conferences and workshops. Now you could go to a panel on "How to negotiate a merchandising deal," for instance. Then came the information discs you could get, followed by websites, and pretty soon, examples of standard contracts and explanations thereof were at everyone's finger tips. Now you can find websites devoted to explaining just what American Idol contestants are signing away.

          Now bands have only themselves to blame for being stupid.

          Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

          by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:07:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  While all this may be true, (5+ / 0-)

            It's one thing to know, in the abstract, what you're getting into. It's another to understand how the label will behave in practice once you actually sign up.

            I suspect that for most bands these days the real problem isn't necessarily shifty A&R guys at the level of the subsidary. It's the sweeping decisions made in the boardroom at the very top, as label heads negotiate mergers with other multinational conglomerates, or private equity deals or what have you.

            Bronfman, shortly after the Universal/Polygram merger, made cuts that laid off thousands of employees and some huge chunk of their roster. When he and a consortium of private equity investors bought up Warner Music Group in the early 2000s, they loaded the company up with debt, and then made sweeping roster cuts in order to pay for them.

            I would think that for musicians, you could have the best relationship you could imagine with your producer and immediate label or subsidiary presidents. But what really matters is ultimately determined in the boardroom of whatever sanitation company or global entertainment conglomerate happens to have bought out your little piece of the music business.

            Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

            by Dale on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 09:05:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's why the old days are over... (0+ / 0-)

              Nowadays, Radiohead gave away In Rainbows for free, great album too. Morrissey can't get a record label. Prince, who has a sizable following, including me, can't get a distribution outlet for his new album. He's resorting to selling it on tour, like a low level musician (That's how folk star/legend John Gorka does it, I bought CD's from him on tour.)

              This is ridiculous. Artists are making their money only from tours, and have given up on from CD's. Why? Clear Channell and the corporations that own what you hear on the radio.

      •  For each Bieber and Lady Gaga, there are also... (6+ / 0-)

        ...lots of Jen Trynins and Semisonics - artists who get royally jacked around and screwed by the record companies.

        When you have an oligopoly of record companies, they can do things like run up five-star hotel and private jet expenses against an artist's royalties (like Warner Brothers did, while Tryin's band toured in a van and stayed at dingy motels), or relentlessly interfere with song selection (as MCA did with Semisonic).

        And this is just artists getting screwed - Ayn Rand's paradise is every music venue like The Station, where you risk your life every time you go out because there aren't any safety rules.

        You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

        by varro on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:01:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And there's For Squirrels (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pale Jenova

          which still sticks in my craw all these years later. As far as I'm concerned, Sony murdered them.

          Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

          by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:49:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sony also murdered my fav band, October Project (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            doinaheckuvanutjob

            by calling them in and telling them there wasn't going to be a third album as the band "looked too old" for music videos.  Neither was Sony going to pay them off, even though the contract stipulated a large payoff to OP for not fulfilling that third CD -- OP could sue them for breaking the contract.  Of course, OP did not sue, they didn't have the money and they didn't want to be blackballed in the music industry for any future projects the individual artists might have wanted to do.

            Based out of Japan, SONY had a line in taking cute young kid singers, coding them as a certain type (the cute one/the girl next door/the tough guy with a motorcycle and a heart of gold/etc), making them pop stars, and then discarding them when they got too old, starting over with the next very young wanna-be pop star.  When they bought out all these small labels in the US that owned all these really good bands comprised of 30 year old musicians, they didn't know what to do with them other than break their contracts and toss them on the junk heap.

          •  Unfortunately, we'll never know... (0+ / 0-)

            ...what would have happened to them; they had a good post-grunge sound that would have been very popular in the late 90s, had they not been in the van accident.

            You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

            by varro on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 11:09:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Did you say, "MCA"? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pale Jenova, milkbone, varro

    •  Clear channel has a near monopoly on (21+ / 0-)

      concert venues. They have extremely strict contracts and fleece the bands. It used to be that touring was one of the best ways for a band to make money, because selling records was a paltry income, but no more. Now it's pretty much just a percentage of the merch sold that the band gets.

      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

      by AoT on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:31:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Know how they did that? (11+ / 0-)

        When they first started buying up venues, they'd pay acts a lot more than the competition, even offered bands exclusivity deals, where they'd only play LiveNation venues, and give them a nice big fat bonus. The talent bought into this of course, and a lot of venues went under, or were bought out cheap by LiveNation. Now, the big pay days are gone, because there's no more competition.

        So no, I really don't have any sympathy for any bands that took the pay off. They did it to themselves.

        First they came for the farm workers, and I said nothing.

        by Hannibal on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:36:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Most of the bands out there now are not the bands (11+ / 0-)

          that took that pay off. Clear channel has been running these things for years

          So no, I really don't have any sympathy for any bands that took the pay off. They did it to themselves.
          Certainly not for the bands that did it too themselves, unfortunately they are not the only ones who are affected by this. Every band is now.

          I'd also expect that a lot of the bands didn't have a whole ton of choice, after clear Channel bought Bill Graham Presents there wasn't much competition in booking and production, and it went down hill from there.

          Of course, these days there is a massive network of underground, DIY venues across the country, along with coops like 924 Gilman in Berkeley, where smaller bands can play without the bullshit. It's not making anyone rich, which means it might actually last.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:47:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There is a ton (11+ / 0-)

            of good music in every city and town.  People need to get off the pop that is shoved down our throats and look local to enjoy music.  The internet is expanding our possibilities and the musician's options.  We need to just look for it.  It is all over the place.  Pop is pablum, mind numbing propaganda.

            Everyone! Arms akimbo! 68351

            by tobendaro on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:47:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Precisely, tobendaro (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tobendaro, Pale Jenova, mikejay611, AoT

              People need to turn off the local Clear Channel Kiss or Mix or whatever station and look for the good music.

              Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

              by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:50:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Uh... okay (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Bill W, doinaheckuvanutjob
              There is a ton of good music in every city and town.  People need to get off the pop that is shoved down our throats and look local to enjoy music.
              Yup. And you know what the people who make that music are paid? Because if you count getting to the gig, setting up, spending the extra hour afterwards trying to persuade the venue to actually cut you a check and not mail it to you (because half the time they 'get lost in the mail' repeatedly), and heading home, it's usually less than minimum wage. And that's if the venue even pays musicians any more: a lot of them are now saying, 'oh, you should work for tips and exposure.' Presumably exposure to other places that also don't pay you for your music.

              And you're not expected to make any money on CD sales any more. And let's face it, how much are you liable to make as a small-time band on tee shirt sales?

              We're very close now to the point where there are three tiers of music in the country: a small group of a few hundred people who are carefully groomed by the music industry and who make a lot of money as long as they don't rock the boat, a VERY few people (even fewer than the first group) who get incredibly lucky and make it big on their own, and people who can't afford to make a career of music because they literally would be homeless. And because the day job increasingly takes up more and more time, expect your local musicians to have less and less time to actually, you know, make music.

              It's all down to what we value as a society. We value music, which we can mass produce. We don't value musicians, which are these inconvenient things that have to eat and sleep and stuff.

              •  The more people that go to local music venues (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                doh1304

                the more money those venues will make, and the more merch bands will sell. Getting people out to shows is the first step.

                It's all down to what we value as a society. We value music, which we can mass produce. We don't value musicians, which are these inconvenient things that have to eat and sleep and stuff.
                The folks that have money and power value music because it gives them more money and power. A whole lot of people value musicians because they give us music.

                If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                by AoT on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 10:14:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, LiveNation swooped in like vultures (6+ / 0-)

          In the 1980s and 1990s there were some ridiculous bidding wars in areas that had multiple venues of similar size.  

          A lot of the relatively small or regional promoters cashed out by selling their business to LiveNation or to one of the larger entities that was eventually bought by LiveNation.  I'm sure there were some that decided to try to compete instead of selling who ended up going out of business or nearly so.

          The LiveNation-TicketMaster merger also meant they make more money and have even more leverage over artists.  I assume the net-net is that if a tour is really successful, LiveNation makes a lot of money and the artist makes some, and if a tour is not so successful, LiveNation still makes a lot of money but the artist makes almost none.

          Please help to fight hunger in the U.S. by making a donation to Feeding America.

          by MJB on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 11:14:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No, touring is the main way to make money (9+ / 0-)

        Merch is a whole kettle of worms anymore. It's only lucrative for the bands for whom touring is also lucrative. The music industry is pretty much like the country is getting: very rewarding for those at the top, crumbs to those not at the top. Merch will not help those bands anymore, the way it saved Nine Inch Nails backs in 1990-1992.

        Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

        by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:08:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I meant merch on tour (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pale Jenova, mikejay611

          Not general merch.

          But I'd imagine that's all going through channels now too.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 09:20:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Always been that way. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pale Jenova

          Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

          by dadadata on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 04:21:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You never heard of albums then, like the White (0+ / 0-)

            Album that sold tons but never toured. Or albums that sold huge before any tour plans, like Dark Side of the Moon or Zepellin 4, you know, not always been that way. You're right the tour preceded album success in many cases, but there was a time when albums were quite important, from about 1964-1994. Before Clear Channell took over everything. Everybody's psyched about our internet freedom, it's great, but Comcast and whoever else would love to change that and control it and the content.

        •  And often not even crumbs (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, doinaheckuvanutjob

          I know someone who did 22 gigs over the a two week period recently. (St. Patrick's Day is a gift to a certain genre of performer.) Total income? Less than $3000.

          Used to be that half of your income as an Irish musician would be in the three weeks surrounding St. Patricks' day. And guess what: it still is. It's just that, accounting for inflation and rapidly diminishing payment for gigs, your yearly income is literally a third of what it used to be.

      •  Not strictly true. When you ask for and get a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        $50,000 guarantee you're walking away with some bank. I personally know an independent concert promoter and high profile acts routinely get high dollar guarantees.

        "Onward through the fog!" - Oat Willie

        by rocksout on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 09:10:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Most acts aren't high profile (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rocksout, doinaheckuvanutjob

          I believe you about the high profile acts, but I'm talking about mid/low profile groups who are trying to make a name for themselves by touring. In a way it's been a great thing because it has built a wonderful and massive underground music scene that just hasn't existed previously. I know in Oakland there were around 20 underground/illegalish venues where people would have shows on a regular basis.

          For me, it's about sustaining a vibrant musical culture that the corporate companies just can't and won't do. DIY shows are the way to do that. And the more we have the better.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 09:16:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  It's the greed of the major labels (11+ / 0-)

      and their stupidity and backwardness, their belief that the best response to new technology is to get the government to ban it, that killed the music industry. You can't stop technology. You learn to work with it. The record labels wanted to tax blank tape — never mind that most of it was used to tape lectures and Grateful Dead concerts. They promoted the myth that people were taping commercial albums. Then they wanted to ban recordable CDs. Then they wanted to ban being able to play or burn a CD on your computer. Then they wanted to ban file sharing. Ban ban ban.  Then they alienated people by suing ordinary consumers for outrageous amounts for (alleged) illegal downloads.

      Consolidation on the radio side certainly has hurt the business. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 was a debacle. No one listens to radio much anymore. Clear Channel brags about its I Heart Radio putting millions of songs at your fingertips because you can get ALL its stations coast to coast. Too bad they only have five formats playing only about 50 songs.

      As for the concert business, it's doing better than ever from the viewpoint of those at the top. Big-name bands charge outrageous amounts, which hurts mid-level acts but what do they care? Promoters and venues pile on fee after fee, until the price of some tickets is increased by 35-40% just in fees. The idea that this has ANYTHING to do with unions is ludicrous. If anything, up-and-coming bands back in the day needed unions based on how they got ripped off by the labels.

      By the way, I was deep inside this business for years. I was one of the photographers whose name you saw every month in Circus back in the ’80s. Metal was my specialty. I constantly shot Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Accept, Metallica, Motley Crue, Black Sabbath, and Ozzy Osbourne, just to name a few. Over and over and over.

      Here. Have another gratuitous shot of Judas Priest.

      JudasPriest79*
       

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:01:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree with most of what you said (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bill W, Theodore J Pickle

        but i got disagree on the "greedy record companies is what killed the music business meme"  I know record companies are every one's boogie man and it's easy to pile on hatred and blame them.  However the facts and simple economics just don't bare this argument out.

        Illegal downloads is what killed the business.  File sharing of copyrighted material  is just to big of an economic hurdle to overcome.  No industry can stand widespread theft of their product and not suffer dire consequences.  Also it was not a myth that people were taping commercial albums.  They most certainly were everyone i knew back in day was doing it.  i did it.  Bootlegging was always a vibrant gray market for recordings but as long as the numbers were manageable the music business thrived.  The business model could tolerate 10 illegal copies for every legit copy sold.  The internet  made the ratio go from 10 to 1 to about well over 1,000 to 1.

        Right man, right job and right time

        by Ianb007 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 01:34:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not true at all... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Saint Fnordius, cardboardurinal

          The movie business is doing just fine, both mainstream and adult and it is the most pirated industry. File-sharing has been proven to enhance some artists presence and 'blow them up (anyone remember Shaggy and the song "It wasn't me"? - Blew up in Hawaii of all places, in a club where a DJ spun a shared copy). Most shared music is not sold, as with movies. Finally, and most importantly, we have a whole generation that has grown up expecting to get their music free unless they purchase it digitally by the song, which made Apple a metric ton of money...

          No star is lost once we have seen, We always may be what we might have been. Adelaide Proctor -7.25/-5.64

          by mikejay611 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 07:55:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Absolutely false. (0+ / 0-)

            The adult movie industry is not doing fine.

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

            Neither is the regular movie business.  Ticket sales have flatlined or gone down while the number of releases have gone up and the ticket prices have gone up to compensate.

            Please stop.  The industry has given away copies of records for years in order to promote artists.  Modern day piracy has not invented that and no one disputes the idea that getting free promotional copies into the hands of DJ's etc would not increase sales.  DJ pools have existed for decades where the DJ's got free records.  What is disastrous is having free copies go out indiscriminately over the internet.

            Right man, right job and right time

            by Ianb007 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 11:38:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  All those industries response killed themselves. (0+ / 0-)

              You couldn't get a recordable DVD player for 10 years. What a joke. Illegal downloads were a factor, but only how the industries mishandled that and everything else by trying to control it like Clear Channell.

        •  Oh no, not again (5+ / 0-)

          Look, the canard about "illegal downloads" is an unproven myth, and one that looks even worse when you look at the real numbers. Apple succeeded with the iTunes Music Store because the people wanted the music, and were happy to recompense the artists. The heaviest users of Napsters were also those who spent the most buying music, go figure. And over in the print world, Tor Books found out that making all of their catalog available for download actually boosted sales!

          Free downloads are promotional material, are seen by those listening as no different than lending form a library. Artists and publishers do best  to see free releases as busking, and curate their offerings to attract patrons to their collections.

          This post is best understood if you look at the fnords first.

          by Saint Fnordius on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 08:13:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Can you imagine the brouhaha if a modern-day (4+ / 0-)

            Benjamin Franklin tried to invent the concept of a public library for the free education of the citizens of the United States if it didn't already exist?

          •  Simply false. Not based in reality. (0+ / 0-)

            There numerous studies that show a link.

            http://variety.com/...

            If making all your content available for downloads boosted sales then books, music and DVD's should be selling more than ever have instead we see the exact opposite.

            Right man, right job and right time

            by Ianb007 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 11:52:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That study (0+ / 0-)

              is not ironclad research, and in any case, it focused on movies, not music. (Yes, the article quotes unnamed music industry sources, but nothing outside the biz is pointed to.) Variety itself, where this was reported, is hardly an unbiased source of information. Lastly, the original study made no claims to universality--they talked about the damage done to the megablockbusters, which really have no analog anymore to the music biz.
              Please feel free to link to more of these "numerous studies."

              "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

              by bryduck on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 12:15:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The study was done by Carnegie mellon (0+ / 0-)

                not Variety magazine.  I don't know how more iron clad you can get than that.  Digital piracy is piracy it makes no difference if its music TV movies or books.  It is hurting all of those industries.

                I will gladly post more links after you post some "reputable" ones supporting your claim that illegal download harming the music biz is a myth.

                Right man, right job and right time

                by Ianb007 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 01:24:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Right, but the slant on the study (0+ / 0-)

                  as you are trying to have it was put on it by Variety. The original study was far narrower in its conclusions and had no real bearing on the music industry's issues with piracy. I make no claims about the mythical status of illegal downloading--you are confusing me with some other poster--but your claim is the one that needs support from evidence. Someone's downloading/copying a song illegally has no relationship to someone else downloading a movie illegally, other than the technology involved. Why do you think CDs are no longer released with copy protection attached, while DVDs are? Not to make it easier to bootleg them, of course, but because the rightsholders gave up trying to implement it--because the investment wasn't worth the hassles.
                  We are talking about music, not movies, because they are indeed separate industries with separate owners, IP issues, creation/distribution channels, etc etc etc. Yes, the files are composed of 1s and 0s like movies and ebooks are, but the laws are different for them all, the amount of $ involved is different by an order or 2 of magnitude amongst them all, and there is little cooperation between the interested parties legally when they pursue their remedies.

                  "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                  by bryduck on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 09:17:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  HAHAHA, no. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, happymisanthropy

          The period of time when I was dl'ing on Napster was the same period of time that I spent the most I've ever spent on CDs and going to veues to see live music.  I was introduced to a ton of new bands that I would never have found in a million years without Napster, and would not have paid for on the off-chance that I might (or might not) like their music.

          And for the record, when I was a kid, everyone I knew used to borrow LPs from everyone else and create mixtapes on our cool recordplayer/tapeplayer set ups.  It's utterly ridiculous, in fact disgusting and disgraceful that the free sharing of music for personal use isn't legally protected today the way it was when I was a kid.

          •  The free sharing of music was never (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bill W

            legally protected.  Not now or not when you were a kid.  As a mater of fact is has alway been illegal,  Copyright statues have been on the books since the founding of this country.

            The absolute ignorance on intellectual property rights and the sense of entitlement  is what is appalling and disgraceful.  

            Right man, right job and right time

            by Ianb007 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 11:43:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm afraid you are incorrect (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              doinaheckuvanutjob

              Our current copyright and intellectual property laws do not resemble the copyright laws of the past in scope or punishment.  Large corporations have learned from past court losses and made sure that as new technologies surface to do the same thing, like copying to media, we common folk are prevented from doing what we did in the past.

              In the 70s, my friends and I had record players with built-in tape deck recorders so that you could very easily cue up an LP and tape a song, then cue up another LP and get another song in after that one, over and over, until you had a complete mix tape.  The music industry tried very very hard to ban the sale of this stereo set up (much as the movie industry tried to ban the VCR), but couldn't, because it was determined that it was okay, fine and dandy for people to make mix tapes.  There was no law that said you had to purchase the records to make the tapes.  As long as you were making a mix tape for personal use, you were protected.  You cannot find a single person who was ever arrested for borrowing LPs from a friend or library and putting together as many mix tapes as he or she liked.

              I'm interested: did you live thru the 70s?  Did you own a VCR?  A stereo system?  If the entertainment industry knew then what they know now, we would have had no VCRs, no tape recorders.

              •  Yes I lived thru the 70's. Barely. (0+ / 0-)

                Sharing music movies etc is now and has always been illegal.  What many kids did in the day  AKA borrowing a friends LP and making a copy was illegal and is now illegal.  

                The only way to make a legal copy is if you own the album you are copying.

                There was no law that said you had to purchase the records to make the tapes.
                This is absolutely false.

                http://www.pdinfo.com/...

                Sound recording have been protected since 1909 copyright act

                Right man, right job and right time

                by Ianb007 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 04:17:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Anastasia, I remember Circus (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doinaheckuvanutjob

        I must have seen lots of your pics back then!

        Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

        by Dirtandiron on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 03:57:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  When Macklemore accepted his Grammy (4+ / 0-)

      for Best New Artist, the final words in his acceptance speech was that they made the album without a record label, completely independently.  The audience cheered, but I suspect it wasn't the big fish who cheered.  They are terrified.

  •  High Noon Saloon! Metal! (11+ / 0-)

    I've avoided arena sized shows for years so I'm out of the loop on the realities what is must be like to put on a show in that realm.  

    But the mention of growing up on metal, reading Circus magazine, that definitely brings up my youth as well.  I still listen to it to this day and even at 40, I still go to the occasional club show.  

    Oh, and the High Noon Saloon (I assume you mean the one in Madison) is a great bar venue.  I've gone through there multiple times in my roadie days and love the owner & staff there.

    Yet another reason I just prefer the small niche world of underground music.

  •  You do get an A for effort. (25+ / 0-)

    As a professional musician and a member of the AFM and the American Guild of Organists, there is nothing that warms my heart more than amateur musicians with a passion.

    Pope Francis: the Thumb of Christ in the eyes of the Pharisees.

    by commonmass on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:24:14 PM PDT

  •  I like how he puts break in quotes (36+ / 0-)

    as if the people who do the hard work of running a show don't deserve down time. I have been running small shows for years, mostly at underground venues in the Bay Area, and the fact of the matter is that there is a lot of work to be done to run a show, a lot. With most of the shows I'm involved in the bands do set up and tear down themselves. For Robb Flynn to talk shit about the people who make his fame possible is outrageous. How long has it been since he had to load his own gear and set up his own shit? Too long, obviously.

    If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

    by AoT on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:25:39 PM PDT

    •  The band I used to roadie for... (18+ / 0-)

      ...always set up and broke down their own stuff before and after shows.  The only people they hired to help were a soundman (who assisted in the setup/breakdown) and a merch guy (which was me).  They are relatively unknown to most, but they've managed to make a decent living by doing their own "dirty work" over the last 30 years.  

      And in the small clubs, the staff there is always busting their butts to put on a great show.  I think Robb Flynn has kinda forgotten about his roots in Vio-lence and before Machine Head got to be well known.

    •  which is why we need unions (10+ / 0-)

      because there are assholes out there who think if they pay you 7.25 an hour you are expected to work until you drop, without medical, without breaks, I suspect there would not even be toilets.

      As far as bands playing until 2:30, that was much simpler when they were playing three random cords on a guitar and mumbling the same three words.  On the other hand, when Public Enemy is going full tilt until 1 in the morning, I quite feel I got my monies worth.

      BTW, if you never listened to Son of a Bus(The Father, The Son, and the Holy Shit), I recommend you do  it now.

      The music industry has not fallen.  Increased competition and lower barriers have created a vibrant and creative community.  The only thing that has been reduced is the cash that non-creatives are able to extract from the process.

      •  Umm... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron
        The only thing that has been reduced is the cash that non-creatives are able to extract from the process.
        Tell that to the people who are playing the same number of gigs that they were 20 years ago, and making one third as much.
      •  That is really kind of funny in a sad sort of way (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe, Dirtandiron

        that you think that musicians before Public Enemy played three chords and mumbled three words.  Maybe more pathetic than funny.

        To each his own, but having sat at Winterland watching The
        Band play till the early hours of the morning, backing everyone from Muddy Waters to Joni Mitchell and also play a huge chunk of their own catalog, I think you might want to take a look at what happened when artists still played instruments and made music.

        75534 4-ever or until dk5

        by NearlyNormal on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 12:44:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The price of tickets killed the industry... (25+ / 0-)

    even cover bands, if they are pretty good can be $30-50 here in L.A. I'm not paying $50 to see a cover band nor $200 to see the real deal. I've been to so many shows between the ages 16-30 and almost none in the last 15 years because of the price jumps.

    The shows are to 'policed' these days anyway and aren't as fun unless you go to the Greek Theater, but then you can just see the show for free as a Tree Person' anyway.

    I use to love concerts, but now like everything else in our society they are too sanitized and too expensive.

    When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

    by fToRrEeEsSt on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:25:47 PM PDT

    •  $1000 (8+ / 0-)

      for front row seats to see Motley Crue...$100 for nose bleed seats.

      "Republicans only care about the rich" - George W. Andersen - my late Father (-8.25, -7.85)

      by Mark E Andersen on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:28:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe it's the bands I like but... (6+ / 0-)

      ...wow, I haven't paid more than $25 for a ticket in ages.  Then again, I do enjoy the lesser known acts (and just won't fork over $80 or whatever to see a band like Rush, who I do like) so there is that going for my budget.  But $50 to see a cover band?  Un-f'n-real.  Only in LA!

      •  I remember getting a good deal on the Lililth Fair (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron, mommyof3, ssmt

        some years back--don't remember how much I paid but we were not rich and we could afford it. Nice seeing Tracy Chapman and others, Suzanne Vega, Jewel, and of course, Sarah McLachlan.

        Haven't been to a concert in more than a decade, though.

        And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

        by Pale Jenova on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:47:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I remember seeing Rush, Kiss and BTO... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron, tobendaro, mikejay611

        together @ the Erie County Field House [in PA] for $15... back in 1974.

        I enjoyed every minute of it but Rush opened and freakin' blew the others clear off the stage)

        Six years later I paid five times that to see Pink Floyd do"The Wall" concert in Cali. Of course, that U.S. tour consisted of multiple dates in L.A. and N.Y. only.

        (not sure what my point is. But your comment just took me back in time. lol)

        "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged." - 17th-century French clergyman and statesman Cardinal Richelieu.

        by markthshark on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:40:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sure and in 1974 (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, rocksout

          my rent on a two-bedroom apartment was $125.

          Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

          by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:12:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          doinaheckuvanutjob

          BTO sucked live, lol!!!

          No star is lost once we have seen, We always may be what we might have been. Adelaide Proctor -7.25/-5.64

          by mikejay611 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 08:06:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  BTO always sucked... I do love their story though, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mikejay611

            with the demo tape to the skeptical Record Co. guy, tape falls off desk into the trash, gets retrieved and ignored until one day listened to and blown away... great story. Terrible songs though, for the most part, except one or two. After all, Taking Care of Business is most Repubs favorite song ever. They aren't Foreigner, hahahaha. But hey, the guitar player (I'll concede) is pretty good and used to be in the Guess Who, who I love. Back in the day when they were around, the Guess Who were considered 3d rate and uncool to like. But I liked their catchy songs, some written by the BTO guys, hah. The Guess Who singer is phenomenally great, if he weren't Canadian, he'd probably have the following of a Robert Plant. Plant's a better singer, but Burton Cummings is great. The Guess Who with their clever lyrics and unique stylings make BTO sound like crap. I have to admit most BTO tunes are toe tappers, but they sound like the Republicans they probably are.

            •  LOL!! (0+ / 0-)
              I have to admit most BTO tunes are toe tappers, but they sound like the Republicans they probably are.
              Nuff Said!!

              No star is lost once we have seen, We always may be what we might have been. Adelaide Proctor -7.25/-5.64

              by mikejay611 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 09:14:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, thanks, lol... I didn't get into the mormon (0+ / 0-)

                thing with BTO, but the main guy, and I'm not sure about the rest of the band, is a supposedly very serious about it Mormon, who shuns drink, smoke, drugs and groupies, sex.

                I was going to leave his religion out of it, partly as I'm not sure where if at all it influences his songwriting, perhaps it doesn't. I know supposedly at least one band member left because of the Mormon thing or he needed rehab. Anyway, I find the abstentions admirable, so I don't know enough about it to mock it.

            •  I saw BTO with the Guess Who which i thought... (0+ / 0-)

              was pretty funny. When i saw the the ad I was like Okay when will I ever again get to see a band and the band it was partially spawned from in the same show.

              When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

              by fToRrEeEsSt on Thu Apr 03, 2014 at 01:50:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That is an unusual and neat thrill, (0+ / 0-)

                and you caught their "we'll make bygones be good friends again" tour, I remember reading about that one.

                Van Halen have toured with Sammy Hagar's band when he wasn't their singer too, but I can't see Pink Floyd or some of the other really bitter breakups touring together. Though Floyd without Waters did play a gig or two, charity, with Waters separately on the bill.

                One of the most recent bitter breakups is really odd, Yes. Sure the new singer is pretty good, but the band can't write decent songs and albums without Jon Anderson, so I'm taking his side of the feud.

      •  I did pay $27.50... (0+ / 0-)

        to see Carcass and Gorguts.  Totally worth it!

        "[I]n the absence of genuine leadership, they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone...They're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand."

        by cardboardurinal on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 09:16:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ticketmaster helped. n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Naniboujou

      If you don't watch news, you're un-informed. If you watch Fox news, you're mis-informed. (paraphrasing Mark Twain)

      by edg on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:59:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's L.A. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite

      You can see cover bands in Cleveland for free. You can see great original bands here for $5-$10. Bands like Wesley Bright & the Hi-Lites and Mr. Gnome sell out their local shows, and they don't cost more than $10 or $15.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:11:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've got a poster here at my desk (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doinaheckuvanutjob

      from the first Bruce show I saw back in 1978. The ticket prices are $8,7,6. The last time I went to see him they were over $90 with the fees added on. I've paid over $100 a couple of times for my wife's birthday - Elton John and Bonnie Raitt.

      Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað

      by milkbone on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 09:54:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have ticket stubs for the Grateful Dead @ $12.50 (20+ / 0-)

    Now the Eagles want >$150/ticket.  I hate the fucking Eagles man.

    The sun's not yellow, it's chicken. B. Dylan

    by bgblcklab1 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:27:16 PM PDT

    •  Dead shows where the best deal in town... (9+ / 0-)

      especially if there was camping.

      The price of the tickets was nothing compared to the fun of the weekend. I think camping at the Ventura County Fairgrounds was my fav but i'm sure everyone has theirs :p

      When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

      by fToRrEeEsSt on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:37:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Dead at their best were mind numbing blow your (5+ / 0-)

        brains out.  Everything else was just music.

        The sun's not yellow, it's chicken. B. Dylan

        by bgblcklab1 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:45:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was more than a concert it was a party put... (7+ / 0-)

          on by the band. I had friends I only knew from shows and would only see at them, but we would just find each other every time. (never followed the Dead but when they were in my region I would see 2-3 weekends at different venues each tour).

          That moment in social time is forever gone....

          When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

          by fToRrEeEsSt on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:50:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, it's not (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nswalls, Box of Rain

            There is a whole young jam band scene.

            It's staggering the way that music and that social structure goes on and on and on.

            Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

            by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:13:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think the vast majority of people (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nswalls, SME in Seattle, rocksout

              who complain about music just don't take the time to go out and find the local music scene.

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 09:54:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  and like fashion (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Naniboujou, Box of Rain

              it seems the genre is cyclical- witness the rise in the popularity bluegrass or jamgrass.
              btw- anyone looking for a great long weekend or show needs to check out Delfest over memorial day weekend in western maryland. Organized by Del McCoury, the weekend boasts nearly 50 acts, playing from noon to 4 AM, camping, and one of the best scenes ive been a part of. one of the most diverse crowds ive seen- well, age diversity that is. plus, tickets for 140 plus camping for that amount of music really isnt too bad. the bands range from very traditional (Del, Carolina Chocolate Drops), to Yonder Mountain String Band, to Reverend Payton.
              (and no im not associated with the fest, even tho i know this sounds like a promotion- but i guess i am trying to promote it so it enjoys more popularity)

              nothing says "I love Jesus" quite like killing his pets and puking on his furniture - Hunter

              by nswalls on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 04:17:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Get out of my fucking cab! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bgblcklab1, ARS, mkor7, Saint Fnordius

      We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.

      by EighteenCharacters on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:40:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Aww, man, hate the system not the band... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      libnewsie, frankzappatista

      It's the Eagles!! lol

      "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged." - 17th-century French clergyman and statesman Cardinal Richelieu.

      by markthshark on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:46:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hub wants to get tickets to see (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      Elton John next week in Vegas. Gag.  I liked his stuff before Yellow Brick Road and since then I wouldn't go see him for free.  Why pay to hear the same stuff you have heard a million times?  I don't get it. Eagles?  Heard it all 2 million times.  Not interesting at all.

      Everyone! Arms akimbo! 68351

      by tobendaro on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:01:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I recently heard a recording... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tobendaro

        ... of a recent live Eagles performance, and unless they are usually 100 times better than the recording I heard, they are just stealing money now.  

        Their voices are shot, the playing is uninspired; you'd have a better time and hear better music if you saw an Eagles tribute band play at a local club.

        Please help to fight hunger in the U.S. by making a donation to Feeding America.

        by MJB on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 11:17:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  saw him two years ago (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tobendaro, mikejay611

        in vegas. im not what you would call a fan, but it was freaking awesome! the wife and i had a blast watching. and yes, it was all the hits, but it was really fun! i was completely shocked how enjoyable it was...(except for the cost of the drinks, now that sucked- which is why i always carry my flask)

        nothing says "I love Jesus" quite like killing his pets and puking on his furniture - Hunter

        by nswalls on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 04:20:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I have a 20 Deutsche Mark Led Zep ticket, (0+ / 0-)

      about 5 bucks in the day, 1970. I remember they opened with "Immigrant Song," which we did not know yet. I routinely pay $60-$100 for tickets these days, for less-than-Zep bands.

      stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

      by Mother Mags on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:03:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Crummy, uninspiring music is the problem. (10+ / 0-)

    Today's music lacks originality and timelessness.  It's a race to the bottom and "hip-hop" is leading the way.

    In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds. In loyalty to our kind, We cannot tolerate their obstruction.

    by mojave mike on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:28:40 PM PDT

    •  Absolutely. (6+ / 0-)

      It's not about who has talent; it's about who is most marketable.

      We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.

      by EighteenCharacters on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:41:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  get off my lawn (nt) (10+ / 0-)

      warning: snark probably above

      by NE2 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:03:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh good grief. The lazy fogey copout! (11+ / 0-)

      Bull. There is WAY more good music today than there ever had been. One issue is certainly the lack of gatekeepers. You have t know what you are looking for and how to find it. Radio no longer spoonfeeds it to you. If you are waiting to be spoonfed by radio, all you will hear is bad "hook up in the club/go back to my crib" hip hop.  That is the tiniest fraction of music out there today. There is unprecedented brilliance. I am in the process of putting together a show for my music photography gallery — I should be writing the wall cards now instead of doing this — that focuses on great local bands starting to make waves here in Cleveland, three dozen of them. Our problem was narrowing them down.

      The other issue is that there was always a preponderance of crap. But the crap vanishes, and we now only remember the cream.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:16:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's what they said in Seattle ten years ago.... (0+ / 0-)

        In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds. In loyalty to our kind, We cannot tolerate their obstruction.

        by mojave mike on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 09:29:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  An important difference nowadays (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        milkbone, zmom, doinaheckuvanutjob

        ... is that it's relatively easy to have a garage studio as well as a garage band. People don't NEED major labels to record. I know artists, small ones, that have live-streamed studio sessions to fans who pay for the privilege. People use kick-start. There's the network of dinner or living room concert venues, almost like private membership clubs.

        Record label A&R pretty much doesn't exist any more. People launch careers on YouTube (Bieber & Taylor Swift & Bruno Mars as notable examples) and on talent shows (Kelly Clarkson, Carrie Underwood.)

        There's so many of those talent shows, some which are almost more like the old Gong Show, one could argue they've largely replaced what used to be label A&R.

        The Americana genre is growing, semi under-the-radar, because there's so many artists, even established ones still turning out good new work, who can't find a place in established venues.

        Plus people listen to a lot of stuff other than the radio nowadays, and learn about music by other means, too. Old metrics like Billboard lists don't matter as much any more either, trending on iTunes matters these days. Though I did hear that Shakira's new album was #1 in 60 countries last week; that's another difference, things are more international for big acts.

        And Beyoncé launches a new album via download with zero promotion ahead of time, not so much as an announced release date. All her publicity was free. A lot of concerts and TV shows are performed to pre-recorded tracks nowadays, too, especially a lot of the bigger acts. It's not so easy to extend that kind of show in ways that have zero to do with unions. With all the dancing and gymnastics and pyrotechnics and so on, I guess they want to make sure the sound works. Hell, Beyoncé lip-synched the National Anthem at Obama's second inauguration.

        A whole lot of things are different. This diarist and the guy he's calling to task both leave out most of the story.

        In the end, music is too fundamental to the human experience. It will survive. Some way or another musicians will find a way, as will those who enjoy listening.

        Mark Twain: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

        by Land of Enchantment on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 05:56:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Technology Effect (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          doinaheckuvanutjob
          An important difference nowadays is that it's relatively easy to have a garage studio as well as a garage band. People don't NEED major labels to record. I know artists, small ones, that have live-streamed studio sessions to fans who pay for the privilege.
          This is what the incumbent gatekeepers were hoping to prevent with the various attacks on new distribution and recording technologies. "Piracy" was simply the public rationale.

          On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

          by stevemb on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 07:35:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Hip-hop is just a more marketable (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Crimson Buddha

      word for disco. Imagine if it were Rap/Disco instead of Rap/Hip-hop, hahahahaha

      There are two types of republicans, the rich and the stupid. The rich ones strive to keep the stupid ones stupid and the stupid ones strive to keep the rich ones rich.

      by frankzappatista on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:21:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, back in 1969... (6+ / 0-)

      Cream, James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, Jefferson Airplane, Velvet Underground, Johnny Cash, Rolling Stones,

      all had new music being released - at the same time.

      You are the product of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success - Act like it.

      by old mark on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 03:10:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Right now (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SME in Seattle

      we are in a renaissance for music; you have FAR more options than you did just a decade ago. You don't have to listen to what is on the radio.

       Technology has made it so you never have to listen to music that you don't love, and it's easier to find great bands than ever before.

      •  Stovepipes (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doinaheckuvanutjob

        I agree with what you say, but aren't we at the same time creating "stovepipes" that filter what we hear and inadvertently cut us off from new experiences?

        One of the reasons that I bought my first FM receiver in 1970 was that I was within reception distance of two of the most progressive radio stations of their day (at least by East Coast standards.  These were WBRU (Brown University) and WBCN (Boston).  Consequently, I was "turned on" to musical treasures that I enjoy to this day.  

        Now, in addition to satellite radio, I enjoy KCRW in Santa Monica, and her something new and refreshing every day.

        In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds. In loyalty to our kind, We cannot tolerate their obstruction.

        by mojave mike on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 10:56:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  that hasn't been my experience (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mojave mike, AoT, zmom, doinaheckuvanutjob

          A lot of the music I listen to at home is actually on Youtube, and through the related videos I have discovered countless bands that I would have never found without it. I've found entire genres of music that I now love, that I never knew existed before.

          Pandora works the same way; how well it has learned the kinds of music I like is almost freaky.

  •  Ted Nugent is another asshole who always (17+ / 0-)

    complains about the unions at his shows. I guess saying dumb shit to stir the pot is easier than writing new songs eh, Ted?

    Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

    by Dirtandiron on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:28:59 PM PDT

  •  Not to mention (18+ / 0-)

    The stage shows have become so much more complex.  If not for the stagehands union, it would not be possible to competently and safely perform the shows.  These people set up for shows (whether it be music, sports, or special events) at some venues daily.  If Machine Head (or anybody else) wants to play until the sun rises, rent out a piece of land and put up a stage.  In Louisiana, the state will let you hire a chain gang to hump the steal-deck and put up the barricade.  Go nuts.

    “The purpose of our lives is to add value to the people of this generation and those that follow.” – Buckminster Fuller

    by TheFern on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:29:23 PM PDT

    •  So true - back in the day of his 2:30 finish, the (12+ / 0-)

      set was a wall of speakers and a couple of projection screens.  You could knock it down and roll it out pretty quickly compared to current shows.  If they played til 2:30 now, they'd be lucky to be loaded out before late morning.  Then they've still got to get to the next town and set it all up again.

      Libertarianism, n: A political philosophy some people embrace after the roads have been paved. (Stolen from Kurt Weldon)

      by lineatus on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:37:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the stagehands are putting down the floor (16+ / 0-)

        for tomorrow's NBA game when the roadies leave.

        “The purpose of our lives is to add value to the people of this generation and those that follow.” – Buckminster Fuller

        by TheFern on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:45:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  311 just played in New Orleans (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lineatus

        Started at 9:30 played 'till 2:30 no breaks YEAH!!!

        "Onward through the fog!" - Oat Willie

        by rocksout on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 09:19:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Definitely True! (3+ / 0-)

        I'm a union stagehand.  The unions haven't done any harm to operating large shows like this, at all, and it's pretty simple to explain.  Stagehands don't work straight hourly, for the most part.  We work on guaranteed minimums, or flat rates, and have for years and years.  If I walk into a venue to load out, I'll be "guaranteed" say, a six hour mini.  If we're done in four, I get paid for six.  If we're done in six, I get paid for six.  Done in eight, paid for 8 with two hours overtime (depends on the union).

        That being said, a certain amount of "extra" time is built into the call to make sure we don't hit overtime.  An expected four hour call will usually be a six hour mini, a six will be an eight, and an eight will be a 10 or have a second crew (you only hit 8+ with stadium shows, for the most part).

        So, if the labor was already built in, what keeps bands from playing an hour or two or three extra?  Curfews and promoter's scheduling.  Most towns have these things called curfews for live events.  Playing past curfew incurs a fine.  In my area of operation, some large performers have paid off the fines out of their own pocket (Springsteen and Bon Jovi, notably).  The bigger one, honestly, is scheduling.

        It's simpler to use an arena show as an example, because arenas don't have decks and superstructure like a stadium does (generally).  Your average arena show will take approx. six hours to set up and four hours to tear down.  If you show ends at 10PM, your trucks are loaded and leaving by 2AM.   They have X hours to get to the next venue, and then they need 6 hours to set up.  If your next venue is 6 hours away (keep in mind, this is a convoy of trucks - some arena shows are upwards of 30 tractor trailers, and stadium shows are usually 15-20 flatbeds minimum just for the superstructure truss).  Every hour you play over is hours that can't be used on the other end to cover mistakes, like a truck getting lost, blowing a tire, mandatory DOT inspections, etc. etc.  You want to play till 2AM? Great.  You can afford the fine? Great.  Can you afford refunding all the tickets for your next performance when it has to be cancelled because one of the trucks with your superstructure blew 2 tires and it's going to be delayed 3 hours to get a replacement?  Probably not.

        So, yeah, us union stagehands?  We'll build that rig in two hours less time than expected, we'll do it right the first time, and we'll break our bodies all over the place to get it done.  But now you want to turn around and tell us that we're destroying the industry because you scheduled so many events so close together that you can't afford to play extra time?  Piss off.

    •  collapsing stages and electrocution..... (5+ / 0-)

      are also hazards.

      I do go to a lot of concerts and this summer I am hoping to go to some festivals for the music.  I don't usually go to the big arenas though.

      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

      by murrayewv on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:58:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Winterland (28+ / 0-)

    Was run by the great Bill Graham, the man who in many ways invented the business of promoting and staging rock concerts. Because Winterland was run by someone who loved the music there were no issues around time, and the employees were treated properly. The final show at the venue featured a 5+ hour Grateful Dead concert that began at midnight, and when the Dead finished playing Graham's people served a catered breakfast to the audience.

    The music "industry" is in trouble because it's an industry that is not focused on the artists or the music, but the money. The industry sells garbage and wonders why nobody buys their product. The sooner we kill the music industry, the sooner we can all enjoy music again.

    "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

    by US Blues on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:31:09 PM PDT

    •  Don't forget Chet Helms (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dagnome, nswalls, US Blues

      and the Family Dog @ the Fillmore and the Avalon Ballroom.

      I've heard tell that Bill Graham acknowledged that Chet showed the way.

      Darling, you didn't use canned salmon, did you?

      by JrCrone on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:55:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Remember that breakfast (Narsai David) well. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nswalls, US Blues

      I had worked the Kaiser show and we were invited over to SF to close down Winterland.

      I preach the church without Christ, where the lame don't walk, the blind don't see and what's dead stays that way! Hazel Motes in "Wise Blood" (Flannery O'Connor)

      by chalatenango on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:59:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Couldn't agree more (5+ / 0-)

      Let's face it the rock and roll movement has been dead for a long time. It probably got killed some time around 1980. As someone who was in college in the early '80s you could tell the vibe in rock and roll was sucky then compared to ten or even just five years earlier. Bands in the 60s and 70s hated doing commercials and even appearing in film (unless it was some wierd indy project). They rebelled against the corporate status quo of commercials and film, and then along came Michael Jackson who legitimized them both. Anymore a music career is just a stepping stone to the really big stardom in film and television and representing Pepsico. And what sucks is that audiences are cool with that. If Bob Wier went out and did commercials for pimple cream even the most hardcore Dead fans would be saying FUCK THE GRATEFUL DEAD!!! but now you've the guy from Maroon 5 in that commercial for pimple cream (like all the fucking time) and his fans adore him for it. Look at all the movies out there starring one-shot rap/hip-hop stars. Do they or their fans give a shit about rock and roll? There are people out there playing music that sounds like rock and roll but without any remnant of rebellion you pretty much need a shovel to find where the movement used to be.

      There are two types of republicans, the rich and the stupid. The rich ones strive to keep the stupid ones stupid and the stupid ones strive to keep the rich ones rich.

      by frankzappatista on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:46:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I got a catered-in Thanksgiving dinner (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron, US Blues

      at Winterland from Bill Graham once....

      75534 4-ever or until dk5

      by NearlyNormal on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 12:49:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Music wants to be free. (Nt) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tobendaro, AoT

    Think about the baby Jesus. Up in that tower, letting His hair down so that the three wise men could climb up and spin the dreddle and see if there's six more weeks of winter. -- Will and Grace

    by Rikon Snow on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:35:28 PM PDT

  •  meandering diatribe has no point (15+ / 0-)

    I tried to read the referenced blog post. I did. I couldn't figure out what his point was. He remembers this time long ago when someone played an extra-long set and it was awesome. And then Eddie Vedder got drunk on stage and after vomiting backstage taking a "break" came out and was also awesome.

    Only the METALLICAs and PEARL JAMs can pull things like this. Bands that have sold millions of records, and they can afford it.
    And that's what's wrong with the music industry. It's not the unions, not the venues, not the musicians, not the labels.

    It's a piss mountain. If you are on the top of the mountain, the view is sweet, the air is crisp and the sky is clear. Anywhere else, and that's not rain.

    The unions didn't create the piss mountain, neither did Metallica or Pearl Jam or whoever. It's the industry. And it's been that way for as long as there's been a music industry.

    It was that way in '75. It will be that way in 2075.

  •  This is beside the point but I go to Gomeroke at (6+ / 0-)

    the High Noon Saloon most Tuesday nights. Everybody there knows me - Dave the Wave. Come on down sometime and introduce yourself. I have a bunch of friends who go to the Gomeroke shows religiously because there is nothing more fun than singing witth a rock and roll band. Hopefully I will see you there some time.

    Slow thinkers - keep right

    by Dave the Wave on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:39:18 PM PDT

  •  an equally gratuitous comment about Judas Priest (5+ / 0-)

    Their best album, by far, was "Stained Class".

    But the best heavy metal album of all time, by far, was Krokus's "Headhunter".  ;)

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:39:36 PM PDT

  •  UNIONS!!!!!! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude, llywrch, Ellid

    The musicians union is shit. They used to run concerts and stuff before the 80s. Union members had a book with lists of players of various instruments and people would use that network to get gigs. But the unions have had zero power. Its so bad that there was an event in the 1980s or early 90s where the fucking teamster hired a non union band. the union is a ridiculous waste of time.

    Oh,,,wait,,,thats not the union you mean...um...clear channel is a union? Boo hoo for judas priest.

    I cant tell if its a West End musical or Marxism in action.

    by Evolution on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:46:50 PM PDT

  •  Homogenized Focus Grouped Commercial Swill (8+ / 0-)

    ...is what killed the music industry, both on the recording size and the consolidation of the broadcast industry (ClearChannel etc)

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:47:31 PM PDT

  •  This dude is so full of shit (15+ / 0-)

    it's not even funny.

    In every instance I've ever heard of where they've been shortened, concert hours are dictated by local ordinances.

    I've never, ever heard anyone even bring unions into the discussion.  Ever.

    Largely because unions are not anywhere near as prevalent at arenas as this assclown seems to imply they are.  Shit, even looking to see if anyone at the local big-city arenas are unions reveals that MSG and Barclays have unionized carpenters, and that's about it.  Everyone else - concessions, security, etc - seems to be part time, non unionized help.  You sure don't need carpenters to keep a concert going late into the night...

    So what the fuck is this guy even talking about?

    "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

    by Darth Stateworker on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:52:47 PM PDT

    •  I get it now. Maybe. (3+ / 0-)

      His complaint is about roadies - I guess.  But the quote has him talking about employees at the "venues", and when I think of a venues employees, roadies don't come to mind, because they work for the band, not the venue.

      If a band hires unionized roadies and doesn't like the work rules, who says they can't negotiate ones that are more acceptable for the job that needs to be done.

      Either way you read what this tool said, he's still a typical anti-unionist creating another fictional boogieman out of union workers.

      "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

      by Darth Stateworker on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:00:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Very few rock tours are union. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Darth Stateworker

        Iirc, not even Springsteen's road crew is union.

        In fact, the last major crew I worked with who were unionized were the Grateful Dead's crew.

        "It's never too late to have a happy childhood." - Tom Robbins - Political Compass sez: -8.25, -7.90

        by ARS on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:32:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So he really is (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ARS, doinaheckuvanutjob

          completely fully of shit then.

          Sigh.

          "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

          by Darth Stateworker on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 05:47:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have to say... (0+ / 0-)

            I haven't worked rock since the 90s, and most of my "big" shows were in the 80s/90s.

            I've basically been sitting on Broadway since 1996.

            "It's never too late to have a happy childhood." - Tom Robbins - Political Compass sez: -8.25, -7.90

            by ARS on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 06:57:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ^ which is to say.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Darth Stateworker

              I cannot say definitively, either way.

              But back in the day, it did piss me off that his "Born in the USA" tour was non-union.

              "It's never too late to have a happy childhood." - Tom Robbins - Political Compass sez: -8.25, -7.90

              by ARS on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 06:58:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  All venues have local crew (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, happymisanthropy

        There has to be people around who know where things ARE, fer chrissakes. Generally it's a mix, and there's people who specialize in keeping the interface smooth.

        Touring operations don't want/need to support travel expense for every stagehand, who sometimes even do things like set up the chairs. Different venues also require different amount of workers, for all sorts of particular reasons specific to that one place.

        Mark Twain: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

        by Land of Enchantment on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 06:04:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And companies like Aramark (6+ / 0-)

      and Cysco keep unions out.  They run huge stadiums and venues and give out awards to the managers who thwart union organizing.

      Listening to the NRA on school safety is like listening to the tobacco companies on cigarette safety. (h/t nightsweat)

      by PsychoSavannah on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:48:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  IATSE (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      milkbone

      International Alliance of Theatrical and Stage Employees.

      We usually settle with being called stagehands.

      "It's never too late to have a happy childhood." - Tom Robbins - Political Compass sez: -8.25, -7.90

      by ARS on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:16:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron, Darth Stateworker

      how the fuck would he know about arenas?  Machinehead doesn't play in them.  BTW, Machinehead sucks.

      "[I]n the absence of genuine leadership, they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone...They're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand."

      by cardboardurinal on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 09:21:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Correction (0+ / 0-)

      Madison Square and Barclays both use Local 1 for their concerts.  If there's a big event in NYC, chances are it's Local 1 labor.

      •  All I could find (0+ / 0-)

        for both were the carpenters union.  

        Granted, I only searched Google for about a minute or two, but that should be enough.

        My mistake. Mea culpa.

        "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

        by Darth Stateworker on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 05:49:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Industry.... (14+ / 0-)

    Back when I was a kid in 1983, I bought my first Compact Disc. Michael Jackson's "Thriller". It cost 15.98. After a couple of marriages and divorces, I lost it. So 25 years later, I decided to buy another copy. It cost about $15.98. It's an excellent CD, but why didn't the price come down? Nowadays, a 15.98 CD might only have one decent song. At least with I Tunes you can pick what you want, song by song. Technology was supposed to bring down prices, but it hasn't brought down the price of new CD's. It's ridiculous. I remember the last time I walked into a record store (the sad days before Tower Records went out of business). I saw the DVD for the movie "Spiderman". It was $14.98. I looked across the room and saw the soundtrack for the same movie. It was $19.98. The CD cost more than the actual movie! Good going, RIAA. It makes no sense. The prices of VCR's, computers, DVD players and digital music players all came down with the spreading of new technology. But not the price of the CD. Why? Industry greed. The could have embraced the mp3 revolution of the late '90's, but they fought it every step of the way by suing the little guys downloading music they loved. They could have figured a way to profit early on, but they decided to sue kids and grandmothers. Why? Industry greed.

    Radio used to be fun to listen to...especially locally owned radio stations. There was a variety in most big markets a couple of generations ago; you could here anything. But with consolidation, you might have 20 stations in a market only playing about 3 different genres of music. Along with 2 sports stations, and 2 stations in the same market broadcasting Rush Limbaugh. Thanks, Clearchannel for ruining radio for us.

    The unions had nothing to do with the killing of the music industry; the big boys did this to themselves.

    •  you're forgetting inflation, what is a 1990 dollar (0+ / 0-)

      worth today?

      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
      Emiliano Zapata

      by buddabelly on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:49:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, first of all, if you bought it in 1983 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chrisculpepper

      you were a super-early adopter and your family must have had high-end equipment because no one was buying the few available CDs at the time. They were very expensive compared to albums and most people didn't have the equipment to play them, and didn't know the industry was about to launch a conspiracy to force-obsolesce vinyl albums. That didn't happen until close to 1990.

      Their claim in the late ’80s was that the cost of converted vinyl pressing plants to sterile CD manufacturing plants was responsible for the high cost but that it would come down. But when the labels saw in the ’90s what a killing they could make on reissues, remasters and box sets, they weren't about to give up the gusher.

      One of the main reasons major labels were so flush in the ’90s was precisely that, and it's widely believed they were exploring trying to force-introduced a NEW format as there were signs that gravy train was slowing down.

      Then file sharing hit.

      But they had primed the audience to adopt it by their greed in trying  to force people to re-buy the same music over and over.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:28:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  same crap when DVD replaced VHS (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chrisculpepper

        "Buy it again"

        They tried it again with Blu-ray, and HD DVD

        Didn't quite work that time LOL

        Never underestimate CORPORATE GREED

        America's LAST HOPE: vote the GOP OUT in 2014 elections. MAKE them LOSE the House Majority and reduce their numbers in the Senate. Democrats move America forward - Republicans take us backward and are KILLING OUR NATION!

        by dagnome on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 10:23:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I like all of your post, but don't get why you (0+ / 0-)

      think prices go down over time. They go up. Due to inflation. Remember the cost of a cup of coffee, or a newspaper? When I was a kid a cup of coffee was 25 cents. Now it's anywhere from $2-3 (not a latte, just java).

      Eggs: $1-2, back in the day, now $3-4. Everything is more. Rent, when I first paid it was $150, now it's at least $600 for a room in my town.

      Your CD should cost $20 or $30. In fact I'm surprised the price on yours didn't go up. I think the Great Recession depressed a lot of prices.

  •  I attend 3-4 day festivals mostly (6+ / 0-)

    We're going to Wanee in April. Ticket price - $205.00 plus the fees. This includes camping.

    Multiple bands and multiple stages. The Mushroom Stage usually goes all night.

    This festival has been put on by the Allman Brothers for many years. It was kind of a secret for awhile.

    This year...
    Allman Bros
    Lynrd Skyryd
    Trey Anistasio
    Gov't Mule
    Tedeschi-Trucks
    Hot Tuna
    ...and many more

    Plus, go can drink, and smoke, and cuss all you want.

    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. Theodore Roosevelt

    by Zwoof on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 06:54:15 PM PDT

  •  Arena rental cost (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaso, happymisanthropy

    according to this guy[http://rockandrollguru.blogspot.com/...] might be around $20K for the basic concert. Piling on $60K an hour is a heck of a lot more than anyone's time and a half. So, who gets what?

    •  Yes, I am sure there are other costs besides (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, libnewsie

      labor. Just the light bill for one of those arenas must be huge, and that's not including what's on stage. And there must be a markup on all those costs, the stagehands are not getting all of it.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:01:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Live Nation tacks on a bunch, just (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, Dirtandiron

        because they are Live Nation, and greedy pricks.

        Oh, and because they can - see above

        America's LAST HOPE: vote the GOP OUT in 2014 elections. MAKE them LOSE the House Majority and reduce their numbers in the Senate. Democrats move America forward - Republicans take us backward and are KILLING OUR NATION!

        by dagnome on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 10:24:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Free music on the internet killed (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron, askew, Bill W

    the industry.

    Listening to the NRA on school safety is like listening to the tobacco companies on cigarette safety. (h/t nightsweat)

    by PsychoSavannah on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:00:32 PM PDT

  •  For $3.50.. (5+ / 0-)

    at my first concert, I saw Janis Joplin, Steve Miller Band, and Pacific Gas & Electric (the latter, I have no idea what they became). A couple week later, it was Hendrix, unfortunately outside and raining but damn.. I'll never forget the "Starspangled banner" echoing around the almost empty stands of old Rainer stadium in Seattle, as only he could do it.

    This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

    by Karl Rover on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:05:38 PM PDT

    •  Dang, you're old. :-) (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high uintas, Karl Rover

      If you don't watch news, you're un-informed. If you watch Fox news, you're mis-informed. (paraphrasing Mark Twain)

      by edg on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:07:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm way older (7+ / 0-)

        I saw the Dave Clark Five at my first concert but I went to see their opening band, some new guys called The Animals. They had just released House of the Rising Sun.

        And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

        by high uintas on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:16:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well.. yes you are :) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas

          This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

          by Karl Rover on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:31:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yup (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Karl Rover

            I decided long ago to embrace my cronehood.

            mr.u asked me to ask you about the Guadia Nationale.(excuse my spelling) Are they still a power there? They were the military and police when he was there, and he wondered if it was the same. They were corrupt as hell when he was growing up.

            And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

            by high uintas on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 09:07:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  sorry to take long to reply.. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              high uintas

              There's no army now in Panama. The cops, at least here in Chiriqui, and along the Panamerican hiway, are well-equiped and non-threatening in my experience. The last time I was flagged down while driving, she told me nicely to drive the limit, (and she was right) and that was it. In California I'd be paying a $200+ ticket for the same 10 miles over the limit..

              Some interesting cops are the Linces (lynxes). They put two young, serious looking guys on a motorcycle, with helmets, military camo, body armor, and a military-level rifle. (in this heat and humidity!) I see them driving around our semi-rural neighborhood from time to time, or stopped at a bus shelter if it's raining. I feel better seeing them around, and I wouldn't hesitate to call them if I needed help in an emergency.

              This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

              by Karl Rover on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 06:57:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks Karl! (0+ / 0-)

                Are the Linces a private police force maybe?

                And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

                by high uintas on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 08:06:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  no, they're national government (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  high uintas

                  As I understand it, it was an idea to have a quick reaction corps that could deal with anything from burglaries to armed robberies or worse in progress. I think they helped put a damper on the rising crime just by their visibility.

                  Keep in mind that Panama (same for all of Central America) is a massive conduit for coke, money, and even there have been a couple of killings for organ theft - a band originating in Costa Rica, with a doctor and all. Not that any of that affects yours truly, where we live is quite calm.

                  This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

                  by Karl Rover on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 08:41:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Don't worry ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chrisculpepper

          I have a friend who used to hang out with the Glenn Miller Orchestra!  

          Also knew Ella Fitzgerald ... Nat King Cole ... Rosemary Clooney ... met Benny Goodman ...

  •  Big venues have been unionized for decades (9+ / 0-)

    Whoever wrote this is full of shit, because it is NOT new - my God, Jackson Browne sang about it thirty years ago!!!!!

    This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

    by Ellid on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:08:14 PM PDT

    •  JB's roadies were making minimum wage (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      libnewsie

      in his song, so not much of a union.

      I don't know what's been trickling down, but it hasn't been pleasant---N. Pelosi

      by Russycle on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:32:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Stay! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      markthshark, Sura 109, Ellid

      The Julianna Michigan Show on Itunes and Podbean.

      by libnewsie on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:11:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sura 109, milkbone, Ellid

      When I started shooting shows in the early ’70s, before our big arena was built and they were at our local convention center, the union guys were the biggest joke. The promoter had to hire a certain number of them, and they were required by regulations to carry all equipment in and out of the arena — over the door sill basically. But they had no knowledge of the increasingly sophisticated lighting and sound bands like the Who and Led Zeppelin (to name two of the groups I shot there) were carrying. So they carried the stuff in from the truck and dropped it off in the back hall, after which the band's roadies took over. Then they had a little room off the promoter's office where they sat and played cards for four hours before carrying the equipment back outside after the roadies struck the stage. So yeah, the union hands were paid to play cards more of the night. It's said that's one of the reasons why, when they built the arena, they built it out of the county. Muni convention centers can have brutal work rules. I remember reading about how at McCormick Place in CHicago if you wanted to plug an exhibit in at a trade show booth, you had to hire a union electrician and pay scale for a minimum of three hours. I think they eventually negotiated those work rules down. People should be paid for their work, but sometimes the rules did get absurd — back in the day. You don't see those rules now.

      By the way, this was 1970-71-72, the golden era Mr. Eternal Opening Act Machinehead is dreaming about.

      (There was a while in the ’90s, they were on every bill you went to, and people started to mock them, saying they were on the bill so you could take a break to go to the bathroom, get refreshments or hang outside with your friends.)

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:35:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  When you talk about music and politics, (8+ / 0-)

    there's hardly anyone who's more articulate, eloquent, witty or sharper than Frank Zappa.

    To wit, here's a clip of him of speaking about his experience of having to deal with overwrought unions. As always he's fair-minded and clear:

    His autobiography has a great passage about it that goes into this subject - as well as intelligent (and often hilarious) takes on the music industry, censorship, politics and society, in further detail. I'm trying to dig it up (but may have lent it to a friend)...

    "Human history began with an act of disobedience, and it is not unlikely that it will be terminated by an act of obedience." Erich Fromm

    by thirty three and a third on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:13:45 PM PDT

    •  Transcript (maybe). (0+ / 0-)

      For those of us without sound and video:

      Interviewer: "So you think that the musician's union is holding back you and other artists?  

      Zappa: No! I think all unions are. I don't mind saying that I am anti-union. The union mentality has affected the arts drastically in the United States. The worst example would be the stage hands union, which in many instances earns more than the musicians who are playing."

      If you don't watch news, you're un-informed. If you watch Fox news, you're mis-informed. (paraphrasing Mark Twain)

      by edg on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:10:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, but Frank Zappa was SMART (0+ / 0-)

      Mt. Eternal Opening Act Machinehead is not.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:36:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Frank Funded His Tours From His Own Pocket (0+ / 0-)

      Tragically, he canceled half his final tour and lost a ton of his own money because his bassist (the guy who played Valley Girl) was getting bullied by a couple of the band members, and Frank sent everyone home.  With the cancer he probably lacked the energy to enforce discipline.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 10:25:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So I get to post this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Back In Blue, AoT

  •  Gratuitous Judas Priest Comment (4+ / 0-)

    Priest was my favorite band in Junior High.  This was the mid 80s, well before Rob Halford came out of the closet.  There were rumors that he was gay.  (By which I mean the adults, and older kids, were able to pick up on the clues from his studded leather stage garments and whips.)  

    Being a stereotypical hetro male adolescent some part of me didn't want it to be true.  But the song "Dessert Plains" told me that he was gay.  I just knew that the was singing about a man.  And there's no pronoun in the lyrics to give this away. I didn't have cable, so I didn't see any video for it  I just knew.

    It was a moment along my path to adult hood and to empathy and to appreciating art as an adult.

    So here's a link to them performing the song.

    https://www.youtube.com/...

    "Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing -- look at what happened to the Iroquois." Garrison Keillor

    by Spider Stumbled on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:17:33 PM PDT

    •  Yep... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mark E Andersen

      I don't think too many Priest fans were surprised when Rob Halford came out as gay in 1998. I already suspected it long before that. Halford's particular brand of leather dress kind of gave it away as it was the look of a particular gay subculture. Then there was the song "Eat Me Alive" which I always thought was quite graphically about two men having sex.

      Priest was also my favorite metal band when I was in college. I saw them at least three times in concert, they always gave a great show (Halford would ride a Harley onto the stage-- funny aside, he didn't even have a driver's license until he was 38 years old). He had an awesome vocal range in his prime, even now he can nearly go four octaves.

      Heavy metal gave me a safe outlet and release I really needed back then.

    •  I remember dragging my business partner (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Spider Stumbled

      to a show and both of us laughing our butts off at all the little 15-year-old boys acting tough and thinking Rob Halford was so macho when he was A riding onstage in head-to-toe leather on a motorcycle waving a riding crop and B. mincing around stage going "Ladies & gentlemen, Judas Priest thanks you," like he was at a tea party.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:37:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I remember when they were popular in the '80s (0+ / 0-)

      At the time I thought the rumors about Halford were probably BS from people my grandparent's generation angry that they didn't hear Glen Miller or whoever anymore on the radio, and cops who were still pissed off about hippies or something from the time I was in diapers. I like the timbre of his singing voice, his orientation doesn't change that one way or the other.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 03:51:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So this guy basically wants to return to the good (13+ / 0-)

    old days when crews got paid in beer, blow and blow jobs and were damned thankful just to be a part of show biz.

    Fine. I suggest he and his little rock band hire their own licensed, bonded and experienced riggers and gaffers via Craigslist and let us know how that works out.

    GOP Mantra: Guns Everywhere, Voting Nowhere.

    by here4tehbeer on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:20:20 PM PDT

  •  BS (4+ / 0-)

    What a load of BS. Seriously. The Madison Square Garden is not like 99% of the rest of the venues in the country. The percentage of unionized venues is minimal. Bands don't get the sound check interrupted, and sound checks going for over an hour????

    Why people don;t want to work until 2:30 in the morning for nothing to hear my great music? Cause when you go back to the green room or the tour megabus to do more lines than a spiral notebook they still have to clock the break down and load out time

  •  So, then it would follow, that the shows..... (6+ / 0-)

    ....in the Right To Work states cost about $10 and go on into the wee hours.

    I tend to doubt it.

  •  Classic. (8+ / 0-)

    Piss on the guy who was there hours before you and will be wiping and rolling cables long after you're in the hotel room.

    Spread love.

    I live under the bridge to the 21st Century.

    by Crashing Vor on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:50:08 PM PDT

  •  Good post (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron, happymisanthropy

    I bet that bands you play the Energy Solutions Arena in SLC where there are no unions play the same set as they do in a union town, like maybe Vegas.

    Blaming unions for whatever has put a thorn in his side is shallow and lazy.

    And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

    by high uintas on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:52:01 PM PDT

  •  I'm sure union workers get every penny of $1000/ (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron

    hour after 11 pm too.  They don't?  I'm so shocked.  Guess the union are to blame for all of the money the venue is pocketing too!

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

    by ecostar on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 07:56:25 PM PDT

  •  As a union stagehand (4+ / 0-)

    When some idiot at balbbermouth.net who dosen't have a clue makes clueless claims, then the proper response would be to just let it die where it was.

    Now a smart person would look up Matthew D. Loeb and ask how to proceed with this information. And he would be informed that at a not very busy website that has about ten post a day, it would be best to not start grinding an axe against a twelve day old post that has not even gotten a single comment.    

    But instead we have Mark E Andersen who also has absolutely no clue but has taken on the job of representing the I.A.T.S.E. without any sort of union guidance. And that is DailyKos Labor in a nutshell.

  •  I'd rather get the $5K each band member gets ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mark E Andersen

    for doing a 90 minute show than the 300 bucks or so the union member gets for putting in an 8 hour day.

    If you don't watch news, you're un-informed. If you watch Fox news, you're mis-informed. (paraphrasing Mark Twain)

    by edg on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:17:15 PM PDT

    •  Dream on (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      The show where the band members get that much are very very rare. Standard scale is much, much lower than that. Under a grand, with unpaid travel days in the mix.

      Mark Twain: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

      by Land of Enchantment on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 06:11:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Machine Head averages about 5K. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron

        The diary is about a blog post written by a Machine Head band member, so I researched their average pay per show per member. Other lesser known bands, which weren't the source of the blog post, receive less of course.

        If you don't watch news, you're un-informed. If you watch Fox news, you're mis-informed. (paraphrasing Mark Twain)

        by edg on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 12:45:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I cut my teeth in Madison (5+ / 0-)

    Working for IATSE Local 251, Madison's stagehand & projectionist Union.

    I'm still a member, though I've been living in the NYC area since 91.

    When the band plays until 2:30am, that's when the work really starts. You have anywhere between 10 - 20 roadies supervising a local crew of 30 - 100, literally moving tons of equipment very quickly, much of it hung from trusses overhead. It's a very dangerous professional, made even more unsafe when your crew is tired, worn out and being pressured to slam the stuff into the trucks as fast as possible.

    "It's never too late to have a happy childhood." - Tom Robbins - Political Compass sez: -8.25, -7.90

    by ARS on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:26:06 PM PDT

  •  Ticketmaster sucks (5+ / 0-)

    I like saying that any time I can and it's sort of related.

    So I see only tatters of clearness through a pervading obscurity - Annie Dillard -6.88, -5.33

    by illinifan17 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:33:54 PM PDT

  •  How about another Judas Priest photo? (4+ / 0-)

    IMG_0062

    Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

    by anastasia p on Sun Mar 30, 2014 at 08:48:30 PM PDT

    •  I love... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      ...your Priest photos...Mine at the top of this diary was taken from about 50 rows out with maximum zoom I could get on my camera at the time at Summerfest a few years back.

      "Republicans only care about the rich" - George W. Andersen - my late Father (-8.25, -7.85)

      by Mark E Andersen on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 11:27:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Might be a good point if it wasn't False (0+ / 0-)

    I have a friend who works at a hockey arena that also does concerts- most of the people that work there are non-union

  •  The Death of Music... (0+ / 0-)

    W(rapped) shit could be responsible for the death of music....

  •  Winterland back when Journey was an opener (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe

    My own view as a former and sometime still music journalist is that you pretty much have the same things that created today's popular music industry and all of the things about it that I hate showed up during the arms-race of the health-care industry during the 70s through really today. (Big Health, really, is as intact today as Clive Davis.) But there are definite reasons someone would associate unions with the vanishing of the kind of show described in the blog.

    Winterland was a private skating rink rented for concerts by Bill Graham. It was a non-union facility, which along with local-government regulation were things that Graham fought against as a promoter, going back to being business manager for SF's Mime Troupe in 1965.

    I don't think Graham was a bad man, but  certainly didn't work well within the strictures of a collective bargaining agreement that he hadn't been a part of. He had a staff and he wanted each of them to be able to do what he asked during the setup and breakdown of a concert. I have no idea how he fulfilled his obligation in paying overtime, but the rule where I used to cover rock shows (Alb NY) of OT kicking in if a show went a minute past three hours oafter the published starting time likely bugged the crap out of him. Among other things, he worked with bands who were horrible about starting late, tuning for what seemed like a half hour before launching into the first song. But in particular, and in exchange for that unprofessional aspect, magic would sometimes happen after that three-hour point. Friends might sit in, etc.

    The Band's "Last Waltz" show was at Winterland and those who were there at the end were fed breakfast. The tradition of Graham doing over the top NY's Eve shows started there, culminating in a closing night for the venue in which The Blues Brothers recorded a No. 1 album sandwiched between the iconic SF bill of the New Riders and the Dead. These things were likely possible using union stagecraft, but not using someone else's contract for the same.  

    I'd also note that a generation earlier, a lot of people similarly believed the AF of M really brought about the end of the "big band era," and it certainly played a role in two separate work stoppages against the recording industry. You have to understand that the union rightly believed that records would cut into live-music revenue and that performers needed better protected income from records to replace that which was lost. And they really had to act on behalf of a lot of great musicians who simply weren't destined to become recording stars. Good musicians maybe. Maybe even important parts of the recording industry. But not stars. I'm in particular thinking of Jesse Stone, one of the territory bandleaders in KC in the 20s. M

    Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

    by textus on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 05:00:29 AM PDT

  •  These days (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    milkbone, Catte Nappe

    ... most of the touring operations don't want to play that long. A lot of the artists don't run over the obligated time to play; many of them don't want to.

    They've got to break down and load out the operation after the show, drive to a new venue, and set the whole show up. All ahead of the sound check, which generally doesn't run over an hour because no more is needed. The sound check is typically scheduled for an hour before supper starts, and the band wants to eat. Besides, it's rare that more than an hour is needed. It's not rehearsal; they all know how to play what they're playing. It's just a matter of making sure all the equipment's set up and playing properly, that all the performers on stage are getting the sound mix they need from their monitors

    Sometimes a curfew has to do with the neighbors, especially for outdoor venues.

    A lot of parts of the country don't have unions and union rules. Regardless, a lot of places don't want to run later, ditto on the performers, ditto on the neighbors. Unions are only one aspect of a story, which both the blogger being quoted and the DK diarist seem to have missed.

    Mark Twain: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

    by Land of Enchantment on Mon Mar 31, 2014 at 05:30:45 AM PDT

  •  the way I understand it (0+ / 0-)

    from my music lover husband who also enjoyed seeing bands in his 1960's youth for as little as $6 - the trouble started when the Eagles first reunion tour came out and advertised a concert for an unheard of price of $250 a seat when $50 was considered expensive.  it sold out.  after that the prices were set to what the traffic would bear

    Barbara Striesand has a reputation of just charging just whatever - so this is a bunch of hooey

    some cities don't have unions

  •  I worked as stagehand at a non-union venue (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, happymisanthropy, Catte Nappe

    And bands were required to be done at 11:30pm on a weekend or else pay the extra per minute.  Very rarely did a band end after 11:29pm in the four years I worked there, and the 20+ years my friend has worked there.  And again, this is a NON union shop.  If only we could pass a law requiring people to think before spouting off, but then we'd have to admit that some people are just not capable of thinking....

  •  Ah yes, the Lucky whine about those who Work, agai (0+ / 0-)

    n.

    The utter egotistical cluelessness of those who's success is due to cosmic chance - whether winning the talent lottery, being in the right place at the right time, instead of some other equally good and dedicated person, choosing rich parents, etc. - whining about having to give table scraps to the hoi polloi never ceases to amaze me.

  •  This guy sounds like Ted Nugent (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe

    Babbling without knowing what he is talking about.

      Compared to the 80s most concerts are still relatively reasonable.  Perhaps the "super groups" like the Eagles or Stones are on a different plane, but generally speaking things haven't really gone up that much, considering inflation.

    ------
    Disclosure, in the early to late 80s I was an American in his early 20s living in Germany and was lucky enough to score a gig for a couple of German Metal Fanzines interviewing all the Metal bands who would tour in Europe - so I got to interview everybody from Rob Halford to James Hetfield to Ozzy to Tom Araya to Angus Young to Dio, and on and on it went.  I was armed with a microphone and a tape recorder, and had a photographer with me at all times, and we traveled all over Europe, usually on the weekends, to go to concerts and festivals.  Later that night, or the next day, I would then translate the interviews into German for inclusion into the zine.   Good times, good times.  
    -----

    For instance, a typical Festival Day "back in the day" with some of the biggest names of the genre serving as headliners would cost around $35 in the late 80s, early 90s.  Today it is more expensive, but not prohibitively so.    For instance, the upcoming 2-day Rockville Festival (Jacksonville) I will be going to features a total of 37 bands (best known are probably Korn, Motorhead, The Cult, Avenged Sevenfold, Volbeat, Rob Zombie, Staind, Seether, Five Finger Deathpunch, Alter Bridge, Chevelle will set me back $60 a day, not too bad for a massive two day Festival featuring a lot of the top acts the Metal genre has to offer.

    So, rumors of the death of the Music industry are highly exaggerated,  ticket prices are in line where they have always been (factoring inflation) and this guy is talking out of his behind regarding "unions" and "roadies" and the like.  

  •  No band would play til 2:30? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, doinaheckuvanutjob

    Actually if they are feeling it.  Bands will go on forever and the Union Workers would get overtime anyway.

    That guy makes no sense.

    A friend of mine went to See Bruce Springsteen in Los Angeles.  

    Bruse got going and finished at 2 am.  They came trundling in at 4.

    The guys an idiot.  When you could go see a band at Winterland for under $5, a comic book cost 12 cents.

    Things change dude.  Deal with it and quit blaming Unions because cost of things go up.  

    I will bet he wouldn't tolerate having his salary cut back to the level it would have been in those halcyon days when he could pay less then $5 at Winterland.  

  •  Gentrification shuts the shows down, not unions (0+ / 0-)

    Back when there was no problem with a band playing til the wee hours, the venues were in sketchy parts of town or well outside of city limits. Even if there were curfew ordinances to keep noise and crowds in check, they weren't enforced because nobody with any clout was in a position to complain. Incidentally, that would probably also extend to pesky things like fire codes.

    These days, a downtown venue is likely to be surrounded by rapidly gentrifying lofts and apartment complexes, and the aging stadiums and amphitheaters are in upscale suburbs. The cops are much more motivated to crack down on a crowd of noisy drunks if the neighbors have a bit of money.

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