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So by now, most of us know about the controversy in Nevada over one rancher's refusal to pay a fee for allowing his cattle to graze on federal lands. In fact, he now owes the government over a million dollars in taxes and/or fees.

At the heart of Cliven Bundy's refusal to pay these taxes is his proclaimed notion that rights to the use of those lands rightfully belong to those who resided there first.

Additionally, he has often times inarticulately expressed the notion that the collection of these taxes or fees by the federal government is an infringement on personal rights.

On the other side of the fight, such as with those of us here, the majority of the outrage stems from the fact that since the land effectively belongs to all Americans, these actions, and Bundy's refusal to pay for his actions, are no different from any other defrauding of the government.

Given all these points, here is my modest proposal:

Return the disputed federal lands to Native American groups.

If Bundy is telling the truth about wanting the lands to be rightfully controlled by the people who resided there first, and that his refusal to provide any sort of compensation for using those lands is based on paying taxes to an illegitimate federal government, then he should have no more qualms if the land was controlled by Native Americans. After all, their claims to the lands precede those of the Federal government, but also those of any other European settler by thousands of years.

On the other hand, while Bundy has a problem with paying taxes to the federal government, and ultimately stealing money that belongs to all Americans, as a follower of sovereign rights, he should respect if the Native Americans choose to charge him for using their lands for his cattle, assuming they allow him to use them at all.

Let's not forget that the US in general owes the Native American population, who even knows how to calculate how much the US owes, over land seizures, genocides, and countless humiliations. The million dollars that Bundy owes the US, and any additional value in the land, can be considered chump change compared to the value engendered by this gesture of goodwill, repairing relations, and, as a first step, righting some monumental wrongs this would show the world.

Apparently there is some outrage in Bundy's camp that this whole thing is a conspiracy so politicians or the Chinese or something can profit from it. Well, returning these lands would prove that charge wrong, as no one would ostensibly be profiting from such a move. Unless you count the Native Americans, which, considering the last few centuries, I would say they are still at a considerable deficit.

Apparently the actions of the Federal government have also been hysterically called some sort of conspiratorial land grab. Again, it would be hard to call it a land grab if the government is actually giving that land away (technically, returning it to its rightful owners, to use the Bundy parlance).

There is also some outrage here over the possibility of an ulterior motive for the Bundy Rebellion. Namely, the use of the federal lands by mining, oil, and shale companies. Some may question whether the land is more likely to be preserved environmentally by Native Americans than the federal government. After all, there's no reason the Native American groups to whom we return the land couldn't just go and deal with the private companies themselves (Unless of course, we set it up in some sort of treaty....).

From an environmental perspective, this may in fact be a better alternative. After all, the federal government's track record of protecting public lands from private ventures and polluters is spotty at best. On the other hand, Native Americans have been among the strongest supporters of combating climate change, and this makes sense considering they are also disproportionately impacted by the climate change for which these companies are responsible.

But even after all that, if Cliven Bundy still refuses to go along with the government or the Native American decisions, he can always take it up in tribal court. I'm sure he'll have a better chance there than he did in US court.

9:36 AM PT: To address any comments there have been and will be expressing interest in seeing the use of force, on Bundy, his supporters, or his cattle:

Isn't this the very site that often protests against the militarization of police/federal government?

What of the outrage over the Albuquerque PD? Of the crackdown on Occupy movements? Of stop and frisk and drug raids and every other instance of police or federal strong-arming? But if it's against a Conservative defrauder, vile and selfish though he is, it's ok?

No, I would much prefer the government declare that at no point will they threaten, use, or display in force any violence as a means of resolving this issue. Let the militias stand there with their guns and threats and see how that endears them to the American populace. Let the record show that the government has attempted time and time again to resolve this matter in a judicious manner, and Bundy's response has been nothing but contempt for the government and institutions on which we all rely and have built our society.

After all, settling disputes through peaceful means, and through a structured and regulated and equitable government; what better way is there to refute all that encapsulates Conservative ideology?

Originally posted to The Progressive Atheist on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 09:48 PM PDT.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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  •  Tip Jar (125+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, JeffW, kevinpdx, Cadillac64, alypse1, here4tehbeer, Grey Fedora, Meteor Blades, allie4fairness, Calamity Jean, HedwigKos, Nina Katarina, lcs, Raggedy Ann, Nespolo, ColoTim, Amber6541, karma5230, Elizaveta, Nowhere Man, MKinTN, Sun Tzu, Geenius at Wrok, commonmass, nuclear winter solstice, this is only a test, NM Ray, pengiep, No one gets out alive, Thinking Fella, Rogneid, Pilotshark, hubcap, Yoshimi, Gowrie Gal, chira2, political mutt, raptavio, kkjohnson, Catte Nappe, not4morewars, JayC, oslyn7, cotterperson, otto, Bluesee, Simul Iustus et Peccator, greengemini, Bradana, orlbucfan, Deward Hastings, seefleur, 88kathy, Norm in Chicago, Pat K California, celdd, Statusquomustgo, pvasileff, WattleBreakfast, bill warnick, AdamSelene, white blitz, FindingMyVoice, rmonroe, CA Nana, Tunk, Joy of Fishes, Lefty Coaster, Matt Z, Laurel in CA, GeorgeXVIII, Robynhood too, ranger995, maregug, richardvjohnson, peachcreek, MNGlasnant, LamontCranston, Merry Light, JVolvo, enhydra lutris, schumann, wader, rapala, spacecadet1, smrichmond, slowbutsure, Glen The Plumber, xaxnar, Rashaverak, emmasnacker, Blue Bell Bookworm, greenotron, kurt, Aaa T Tudeattack, Linda1961, maybeeso in michigan, basket, gfv6800, fallina7, subtropolis, alpaca farmer, Seattle Mark, martinjedlicka, cspivey, Sharon Wraight, JBL55, Oh Mary Oh, bbctooman, flowerfarmer, Shockwave, OHdog, Hayate Yagami, dksbook, oortdust, MadGeorgiaDem, poliwrangler, lurkyloo, lilyvaldem, Vetwife, FarWestGirl, 417els, renbear, blue91, Piren

    "In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.” -Confucius

    by pierre9045 on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 09:48:26 PM PDT

    •  but - (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pengiep, HugoDog, WattleBreakfast

      pay money over to brown people??? Will he do that?

    •  Already Resolved (0+ / 0-)

      This is a nice diary, but the dispute has already been resolved.

      Yesterday, the federal government announced it would not seek to round-up any cows, and would return all cows already rounded-up to Bundy.  Any further actions against Bundy will be made through the courts and occur at a later time.

      The dispute has already been resolved: the federal government has decided to take no action.

      While the input of native Americans on this dispute of land use would be welcome, no further resolution is apparently needed.

      "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

      by Hugh Jim Bissell on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:06:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Rhetorical solutions are always needed (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight, OHdog

        The right will be back with this argument.  It makes complete sense that the Bundy has no right to the land by his own rules.

        Streichholzschächtelchen

        by otto on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:11:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  While I am aware of this development (12+ / 0-)

        I do not think it constitutes any sort of resolution, only a delay of further confrontations, at best.

        Is the above "resolution" satisfactory to the federal government? Apparently, Bundy is only one of several ranchers in the area who pay the federal government for grazing rights. Not taking action against him is sure to embolden more ranchers to stop paying. If those ranchers paying the federal government grazing rights were to dramatically decrease, do you think they will continue to sit idly by and allow this revenue to continue to go uncollected?

        Even if the federal government has decided to take no action at this time, I think, and others can substantiate this presumption or not, the way things are going, they are sure to take action again on this matter in the future.

        "In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.” -Confucius

        by pierre9045 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:14:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You and I HAVE to follow the law (11+ / 0-)

          You and I HAVE to follow the law.  When we do not, we are asked to pay a fine or go to jail.

          Mr. Bundy has refused (by his own admission) to pay grazing fees since 1993.  He has been charged and twice found guilty.  Yet he has paid no penalty of either fines or jail time.

          Why does Bundy get to violate the law without consequence, but you and I do not?  

          Will there be some consequence for Bundy in the future?  Perhaps - tho' this has been going on for 20 years and there has been no consequence in all that time.  Feel free to hold your breath while you wait for swift action on this matter.

          Justice delayed is justice denied.  And it is you and I, the owners of this land (and nominally the ones for whom the federal government acts) who wait for justice to be done.

          "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

          by Hugh Jim Bissell on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:59:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  resolution (15+ / 0-)

        You may think this matter is resolved because the federal goverment didn't follow through on taking his cattle right now, but you can bet that there will be further court actions and they'll hit him where it will hurt - in his wallet. The man is a multi-millionaire, at our expense. How long would you last on your property if you suddenly decided to stop paying taxes and fees?  

        I'm not a fan of our spending such an enormous amount of taxpayer's money on wars we should never have been in, in the first place, but what would happen to me if I started taking deductions from my taxes that supported wars?  Think maybe I'd be audited and a lien placed on my property by the government?

        The Gold Butte area of desert where Bundy illegally lets his cows trespass (not on his own 160 acre spread) is really the western end of the Grand Canyon. There are magnificent areas out there with archeological remnants of the time when it was inhabited by Native Americans.  The wall art that has been there for 1000's of years is being shot at by nutty, off-the road ATVers, "just because they have guns and want to...." and have absolutely no respect for or any wish to care for the incredible environment we have been privileged to have at our doorstep.  Take care of it and make a viable controlled tourist attraction out of it?  These right-wing extremists who arrived to support Bundy, among others, have stated that all National Parks across the country should be returned to the states they're in - imagine that, having these magnificent areas managed by locals.  

        And you might also like to know that Bundy has invited a whole mess of the nutcases who came here armed and ready to use, to set up camp on this land, permanently! How's that for a healthy environment?

        By the way, don't tell me to move if I don't like it here. This is my land as much as theirs and my ancestors came here in the middle 1600's, and ever since have been law-abiding, taxpaying citizens - more than may be said for some others.

        In reality, the only ones with a right to tell me to go somewhere else are the Native Americans.

        It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. G. K. Chesterton

        by redbaron on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:29:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  missing the point--judgments are not money (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rashaverak, PrahaPartizan

          What Feds were doing by seizing the cows was trying to a) stop further trespassing and b) collect assets to sell off to satisfy the 1.1 million Bundy already owes. (Lets leave out the interest which is around $70K a year on that sum)

          They were trying to "hit him in his wallet"

          A judgment is not the same as cash.

          Bundy likely closed out the bank accounts in his name and works in cash he keeps buried in his backyard.  

          His assets are likely the cows, the land, or fixed improvements and so forther. .

          “Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects.” ― Will Rogers (Of course this also applies to me.)

          by MugWumpBlues on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 02:43:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Bundy's been refusing to pay for 21 years. It's (8+ / 0-)

        time to garish his income, seize his ill-gotten assets, and put him and his would-be seditionist supporters in jail. It was a mistake to release the cattle and embolden the seditionist mob. I can't see how the court system has failed to solve this after two decades and is now going to somehow solve the problem.

        Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

        by tekno2600 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:11:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bravo Tekno2600 (0+ / 0-)

          But you haven't said for how long.  Until they pay all fines, interest and penalties and publicly repent is one way to make sure that the seditionist mobs you refer to are convinced that the US means business.  How about the supporters, however?  How long are they to be put in jail?  Perhaps until the whole story calms down a bit, which they would depend on the press and on how they cover it.  At present, the press seems to be concentrating on how the Feds came in immediately after the judgement was announced with helicopters and armed agents and on how the "protesters" were not allowed to protest except for in a restricted "taped in" area quite a distance form the ranch.  

      •  no, it hasn't been. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rashaverak

        "This is a nice diary, but the dispute has already been resolved."

        it has simply been relocated, to another venue. "resolved" and "relocated" are not, by definition, mutually inclusive.

        "The dispute has already been resolved: the federal government has decided to take no action."

        "Any further actions against Bundy will be made through the courts and occur at a later time."

        Christ on a stick, do you even bother reading what you post, before hitting send? you contradicted yourself in two consecutive sentences.  the gov't is going to take action, just in another venue, the courts, and at another time.

        i'll repeat this again, for those of you who must read slowly: THE.DISPUTE.ISN'T.RESOLVED!

  •  This really shows how dumb those right wingers (34+ / 0-)

    Are.  Always willing to support a millionaire, over the common good.  They all believe they are only one miracle away from joining the rich, who would never associate with them even if that miracle occurred.

  •  Anything they do... (32+ / 0-)

    ...gives the anti-govt thugs more to yammer about.

    Bear down, they're "Jack-Booted Obama Thugs"...

    Back off, they're "Obama's Clueless/Hapless/Impotent Meddlers"...

    I vote for a thousand US Marshals in riot gear. Put a bunch of these assholes in jail, investigate the whole fucking mob for taking up arms against the Federal Government. Let FuxNoise and Lush Rimjob say whatever they want.

    As for ceding the land back to the Native Americans, well, there's a whole West full of Federally owned land that probably ought to be theirs, but until that becomes a reality, these people are taking up arms against the US and using their warped interpretation of the Constitution to abrogate it.  

    This shit needs go be stopped. Now. Firmly.

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 10:25:50 PM PDT

    •  Sieze his bank accounts and property. (20+ / 0-)

      With a whimper, not a bang...

      When all his cash disappears from his bank accounts, and the proceeds from the sale of his cattle are seized, he will find it hard to continue eating.

      That might change his tune.


      The Fail will continue until actual torches and pitchforks are set in motion. - Pangolin@kunstler.com

      by No one gets out alive on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:24:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Alll Assets Probably Given To His Kids Already (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        No one gets out alive

        People looking into this case are having hard time finding land records showing that he owns anything, but that being a Mormon family there are many many other Bundys right there.

        Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

        by bernardpliers on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 09:50:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think the IRS can figure it out. (0+ / 0-)

          Hiding assets is not for amateurs.

          The cattle are trespassing.

          Whoever receives the proceeds from the sale of the cattle will have their assets seized.

          If Cliven wants to put one of his relative's balls in a vice, I guess that's their choice.


          The Fail will continue until actual torches and pitchforks are set in motion. - Pangolin@kunstler.com

          by No one gets out alive on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 12:45:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You can't just march cops in riot (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      88kathy, Pat K California, ExpatGirl, hbk

      gear into a situation like this.  Being shot (even while wearing protective gear) is no joke.  

      •  Okay, so just let the fucks intimidate the govt... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PrahaPartizan

        ...good plan, there, Counselor!

        The guy has already lost in court, and he's been openly flaunting his contempt for years.

        What do you suggest, just shrug and say "Oh, well, guess we just let the guy run his cattle wherever he wants...Can't argue with an armed mob, cause someone might get hurt!"

        I have a better idea, BRING A BIGGER MOB.

        "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

        by leftykook on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 10:24:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Shorter Leftykook: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          misslegalbeagle

          "A bloodbath is good with me!"

          Have you looked at a single picture of what went on over the weekend?

          Tell Warner Brothers Pictures that Rooney Mara is #NotYourTigerLily.

          by ExpatGirl on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:17:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not at all. (0+ / 0-)

            The Federal officers present at the confrontation were ALREADY in serious danger by their limited numbers, which encouraged the militia freaks.

            A larger force of officers would have been much safer than the small group of them.

            I am not advocating a violent response, on the contrary, I'm advocating a response that includes such a large group of officers that would-be insurrectionists would be overwhelmed, which would be safer for all concerned, plus they'd be able to go crying to Bill O'Lielly about the evil government thugs-instead of the intensive care ward-or the morgue.

            A small group of officers is much more likely to be the objects of an act of intimidation by these militia morons, I'd prefer that THEY be the ones intimidated, not officers of the US Government enforcing the order of a court.

            "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

            by leftykook on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:29:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  No, I don't think it's good to let them (0+ / 0-)

          intimate the government.  But I also think a bunch of dead federal agents is a bad idea too.  I guess making a point to a dickwad is worth more than the lives of some federal LEOs to you.  

          •  I'm not the one who sent a small group of officers (0+ / 0-)

            ...to a potential insurrectionist/gun nut rally.

            The officers should have had more support and larger numbers, or they should not have been sent out there at all.

            You and the other commenter in this thread seem to want to allow these people to intimidate Federal officers, you can't be advocating ignoring this, are you?

            The choices are either do nothing, or go back in bigger numbers, unless you have a solution I can't think of.

            "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

            by leftykook on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:38:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  problem there -- haven't got 1K marshals (0+ / 0-)

      available.

      I'd like to see this idjit jailed. I'm not sure what it's gonna take to get that done.

      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:10:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's surprising to me. (0+ / 0-)

        I can't believe they don't have a thousand US Marshals- but I assume you must know how many they have.

        Seems like there ought to be some sort of cooperative agreements between Federal law enforcement agencies to support each other, even if there aren't a thousand Marshals.

        "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

        by leftykook on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:13:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  didn't say they ain't got that many; handy to help (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          leftykook

          with this particular bit of work, they don't have that many, though. 'Specially if word's come down from on high not to shoot anybody obstructin' this thing.

          Marshals do a lot of different stuff all the time. Nowadays they're in everything from witness protection to computer analysis of forensics. All well and good and needed, and all shorthanded departments.

           For this, what you want really are some deputies and some cowhands (ex-Marines who can remember what they learnt about riding horses  in the war, would be my first choice) who don't have a problem with not being safe in rounding up these cows and trucking 'em to sale barns. Makin' sure, as part of their not bein' safe, people threatenin' them UNDERSTAND it ain't safe to do that, either. Cameras for Faux Noise be damned (and or stomped to doll rags under stampeding cattle would suit me).

          Sale barns more deputies need to keep safe against Bundy's pals' arsonist / thieving tendences once the cows are in the pens. So a thousand head of US federal folks is ... about 1/3 what you need, for this. Really.

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:42:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  We have tanks and bombers, though! (0+ / 0-)
        •  which is gonna help how, exactly? (0+ / 0-)

          Seriously. I used to be Air Force. This thing needs to be more subtle than them.

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 08:00:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  my modest proposal (38+ / 0-)

    They hold everyone who urged non-compliance with a Court Order in contempt with 30 days in jail.

    They can hold them in tent jails, like they are doing down in Arizona.

    Clive Bowen and his family get 10 years each, one year for every hundred thousand they refused to pay.

    All the cows and all the guns get seized and sold at auction.

    They charge the Bundys for every dollar this has and will cost the federal government, for all the jail time, and they take that from whatever proceeds the auction brings.

    If selling off the cows aint enough, they sell off the farm.

    I'm with Lefty Kook on this one.

     

    “Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects.” ― Will Rogers (Of course this also applies to me.)

    by MugWumpBlues on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 10:49:19 PM PDT

  •  This is public land, right? (14+ / 0-)

    Why not declare the cattle an invasive species and call an open season, like they do for feral hogs?

  •  20 years in jail for bundy. 1 for each year hes (8+ / 0-)

    stiffed the feds  plus penalties and fines. arrest the nutjobs and put them in prison for a few months.

  •  I say let the IRS handle it. (18+ / 0-)

    They are very good at seizing assets of people who don't pay up.

    Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love. - Einstein

    by moose67 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:22:10 AM PDT

  •  Shoot his cattle. (5+ / 0-)

    And feed the poor steak dinners.

  •  perfect...but he'd just take advantage of them. (0+ / 0-)

    Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility. uid 52583 lol

    by terrypinder on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:07:32 AM PDT

  •  imagine a country in which Obama stops everything (6+ / 0-)

    tonight with a press conference at which he announces that these people have just demonstrated why he is issuing an executive order giving back native American lands now...yeah, I like my pie in the sky, but it was fun for a second.

    We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

    by nuclear winter solstice on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:07:42 AM PDT

  •  A couple low passes over those fuckers (4+ / 0-)

    By a flight of these would be fun to watch.

    A-10 Warthog

    "If you pour some music on whatever's wrong, it'll sure help out." Levon Helm

    by BOHICA on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:22:23 AM PDT

    •  What about a nuke? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BOHICA
    •  Indeed. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JVolvo, BOHICA

      That's also my answer whenever some right-wing gun nut start talking about how they can totally take on the U.S. military with their expansive belly and AR-15 (yes, I'm looking at you, Alex Jones). Um, you do know know that we can kill people with cruise missiles, right?

      "You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! The best weapons in the world! This room is the greatest arsenal we could have—arm yourselves!" -The Doctor

      by quillsinister on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:07:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Drones (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BOHICA, RMForbes, Dems in 08

        I want my tax dollars used efficiently.

        "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

        by US Blues on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:10:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  As was demonstrated very effectively by (0+ / 0-)

        Mr. Bundy, having cruise missiles does not mean that you have the political will to use cruise missiles.

        Mr. Bundy and his Second Amendment Remedies friends have very effectively demonstrated that it is possible to stand up to the US government with personal weapons and win, at least in the short term.

        •  Pity. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Back In Blue

          If only we had a Kenyan socialist dictator to oppress us and take our guns. Things would sure be different then. ;-)

          "You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! The best weapons in the world! This room is the greatest arsenal we could have—arm yourselves!" -The Doctor

          by quillsinister on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:02:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If Bundy and his supported did not have guns (0+ / 0-)

            I am sure this incident would have turned out differently.

            This is exactly the situation the Second Amendment is supposed to be about.

            Whether you think that is a good or a bad thing is another matter.

            •  Not really. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              quillsinister, lurkyloo

              This is about a douchebag who doesn't want to pay, not about an abuse of power by the government.

              America, where a rising tide lifts all boats! Unless you don't have a boat...uh...then it lifts all who can swim! Er, uh...um...and if you can't swim? SHAME ON YOU!

              by Back In Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 12:31:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  no it damn well isn't (4+ / 0-)

              the second amendment is NOT and never was a self destruct program built into the constitution.
              that well-regulated militia was supposed to fight FOR the US, not against it.
              Constitution contains mechanisms for changing the government, and taking up arms against is NOT one of them.
              And what has stayed the hand of the feds so far is fearing a repeat of Ruby Ridge, not because they don't think they'd win a firefight against these clowns.

              Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013

              by kamarvt on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 05:56:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Founders took up arms against their (0+ / 0-)

                established government.

                Thomas Jefferson wrote:

                We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.
                I think it is pretty clear that he, at least, saw revolution as one of the mechanisms for changing the government.  
                And what has stayed the hand of the feds so far is fearing a repeat of Ruby Ridge, not because they don't think they'd win a firefight against these clowns.
                Ruby Ridge is an interesting example.  How familiar are you with what happened there?  See http://en.wikipedia.org/...
                The Ruby Ridge Rules of Engagement (ROE) had been drawn up on the basis of reports from the headquarters of the USMS and FBI, bolstered by unconfirmed news media accounts accepted by HQ, that exaggerated the threat posed by the Weavers.

                If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed, if the shot can be taken without endangering any children.
                If any adult in the compound is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement is made, and is not attempting to surrender, deadly force can and should be employed to neutralize the individual.
                If compromised by any animal, particularly the dogs, that animal should be eliminated.
                Any subjects other than Randall Weaver, Vicki Weaver, Kevin Harris, presenting threats of death or grievous bodily harm, the FBI rules of deadly force are in effect. Deadly force can be utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to oneself or that of another.[46]
                Standard deadly force policy of the FBI was: "Agents are not to use deadly force against any person except as necessary in self-defense or the defense of another, when they have reason to believe they or another are in danger of death or grievous bodily harm. Whenever feasible, verbal warning should be given before deadly force is applied."[47]

                ...

                Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.[48] A later Senate report criticized the ROE as "virtual shoot-on-sight orders."[10]

                ...

                While controversy exists as to who is responsible for approving the ROE that were being followed by the sniper...

                 On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:

                OPR 004477
                Something to Consider
                1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
                2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
                3. Vicki has no charges against her.
                4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
                barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
                Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the

                shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."[10][55]

                That bolded part is the most amazing part - apparently these unprecedented ROEs had a virgin birth - no one wrote them and no one approved them.  I find that part absolutely shocking.

                Anyway, why don't you consider why the government is unwilling to risk another Ruby Ridge.  It's because the last one was unmitigated FUBAR.

            •  Bullshit. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pelagicray, Back In Blue

              The Second Amendment was written in a time when there was no standing army, and many of the founders didn't think we should ever have one. The "well-regulated militia" was not so that some very not-well-regulated-at-all kook could overthrow the government in a whim, but so that the country could draw on a healthy supply of able-bodied and capable fighters for its own defense.

              The political system we have was designed to be overthrown peacefully on a regular basis, and, so long as citizens were involved in the political life of their nation, no other revolution should ever be necessary.

              One may argue that popular apathy has allowed the system to be hijacked, and I would not argue with that, but to say that the right to keep and bear arms was intended to facilitate evasion of grazing fees is beyond ridiculous.

              "You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! The best weapons in the world! This room is the greatest arsenal we could have—arm yourselves!" -The Doctor

              by quillsinister on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 07:27:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  i know this is snark but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FindingMyVoice, JayRaye

    doing something like that would stop these guys from ever disputing land ownership again

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:23:18 AM PDT

  •  Have the local marshall deputize a bunch of local (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FindingMyVoice

    boys into a posse, and go tell them no good varmints to skedaddle off that federal land. That'll learn them that we're a god-fearin', law-abidin' nation that abides no outlawing or tax evading in these here parts.

    I find it amusing that those Republican admirers, of Putin and his saber rattling over Obama, are the first to express their similar support and admiration for the likes of the Cliven Bundys of this world who take up arms as they exhibit their tribal bonding and resistance to law and government that would no doubt gain a hearty Taliban approval.

  •  That makes too much sense. (0+ / 0-)
  •  They could put up a big fence to keep the (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, pierre9045, FindingMyVoice

    law breakers out...

  •  Incidents like these (4+ / 0-)


    Are going to escalate.  

    Eventually there will be gunfire and people killed.

    Probably over something in a semi urban area and involving a member of a militia that is too mentally ill to really be trusted with a gun.

    The best thing for the gov't to do is stay out of the way and give them enough rope to hang themselves.

    I would say eventually that will be the thing that causes a national outcry to restrict military style weapons and public display of firearms.

  •  This focus on fees is a total red herring. (22+ / 0-)

    The real issue is that he LOST his grazing rights in 1997 because grazing in that area was deemed unsustainable. The reason it has taken so long to get to this point is that the case was tied up in the courts. The final judgement came last year and he had until now to remove his damn cattle.

    Beyond that, his initial grazing allotment was for 150 cattle. He is running up to 900.

    Paying his fees is a side note. The issue is that he needs to get his cattle off the land.

    Tell Warner Brothers Pictures that Rooney Mara is #NotYourTigerLily.

    by ExpatGirl on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:49:18 AM PDT

  •  Sounds like a good plan to call out the hypocrisy (6+ / 0-)

    Would love to see Rachel Maddow propose it to watch the Right become truly apoplectic tying itself into knots to rebut it.

    I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

    by pajoly on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 08:51:07 AM PDT

  •  In additon, feed the wayward cows to the militia (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo

    people who so generously showed up.  The cows will be gone.

  •  Two links and an HR explanation (11+ / 0-)

    http://www.hcn.org/...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    I HR'ed a comment, my first ever ,and  I've been here 7 years.  It claimed that Senator Reid was conspiring to drive Bundy off the land to enrich Reid's son's Chinese client. A brazen and debunked lie.

    The first link is to High Country News, which is the best explanation of the prior events leading to the legal action against Bundy.

    The second link is to the Native Americans' own recent battles against the Nevada BLM. Please note the gun nuts didn't help the Shoshone.

    Let the Shoshone administer the lands next to Bundy.

    “The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.” ― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

    by 6412093 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:30:00 AM PDT

  •  So if I scrape together the last of my money, and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, Rashaverak

    incorporate myself with it, I should be able to live free of charge on Federal lands, AND have many big-money people championing my cause....right??
    (Surely if they don't care about cow manure by the hundreds, they wouldn't care about my camping toilet set up right next to old failthful, or better yet, mt. rushmore!

    Please know I am not rude. I cannot rec anything from this browser. When I rec or post diaries I am a guest at some exotic locale's computer. Ayn is the bane!

    by Floyd Blue on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:30:12 AM PDT

  •  at some point (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo, Rashaverak

    Bundy is going to load those cattle on a trailer and (try to) haul them off to market.  On public roads and highways.

    It shouldn't be too hard to seize them then . . .

    Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

    by Deward Hastings on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:34:12 AM PDT

  •  What Cliven Bundy doesn't realize... (6+ / 0-)

    ...is that if you start rejecting the notion that the federal government can legally own land, then it's not much of a leap for other people to start rejecting the notion that private citizens or private business can legally own land.

  •  If you use public land (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight

    for your own private profit, especially if you use it in such a way that nobody else can use it (and grazing a herd of cattle certainly seems to qualify), it does not seem unfair to me that you pay for that use. The alternative is buying your own land and then it's yours and you can use it all you want. If you have your day in court arguing about this, lose, then resort to waving guns around, then you're some kind of domestic terrorist, or at least a dangerous criminal, and you should account for your crimes.

    If you then try to cloak what amounts to theft of public resources in some kind of saccharine nonsense about freedom and tyranny, then you're a histrionic loon who needs to stop watching so many goofy action movies.

    Also, you should probably go to jail and have your assets seized. You are not a hero. You are not a patriot fighting the good fight against an oppressor. You're really just an old fool who lives in a fantasy world. I would prefer we not validate such delusions.

    "You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! The best weapons in the world! This room is the greatest arsenal we could have—arm yourselves!" -The Doctor

    by quillsinister on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:01:00 AM PDT

  •  Drones (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rashaverak, The Dude 415

    U.S. Marshalls.
    Firm and decisive action should have been taken.
    These "ranchers" are stealing from the people of the U.S. and openly defying the government.

    But it is over now. The government has backed down.
    The Sagebrush Rebellion is reborn with much greater strength than it's original incarnation.
    An army of well armed "militias" and "sovereign citizens" -U.S. Putins, has faced down the Federal Govt and won.
    This will embolden like minded individuals and groups all over the West. Grazing, motorized recreation, shooting and other illegal uses of Public Land will proliferate rapidly.

    If the Government had put this armed rebellion down quickly this would not be the case. There would be much noise about "Big Government" and "Jack Booted Thugs" but further seizure and abuse of Public Lands would have been discouraged. The ketchup can't be put back in the bottle. It is now a fact; when faced with a well armed mob, umm,  citizenry the Treasonous Federal Government will surrender.
    The Militia’s, Oathkeepers, and Sovereign Citizen’s have seized the day.
    The movement to take control of Public Lands by the states has gained more momentum than it has ever had.

  •  Recc'd for the update especially-great (0+ / 0-)

    diary. I propose that Cliven send his grazing money to each of us citizens - since it is our land as well - and he will then get to pay himself too! (But only his share of the $$. The rest goes to the 317 million citizens of the US)

    “You can say any fool thing to a dog and the dog will just give you this look that says, 'My GOSH, you're RIGHT! I NEVER would've thought of that!” ― Dave Barry

    by Merry Light on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 11:52:13 AM PDT

  •  No. Sometimes society (govt) must use force. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not a pacifist.

    Mob rule is what's happened so far, and the mob has gotten its way.

    Take his cattle by force, if necessary, auction them off, keep the amount owed, and send what's left over to Bundy.

    •  Soo... It's a Good Idea to have (0+ / 0-)

      another Waco type debacle-- with 15-20 people dead?

      would that satisfy you?

      "We are beyond law, which is not unusual for an empire; unfortunately, we are also beyond common sense." Gore Vidal

      by Superpole on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:05:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I actually think the outcome of this (0+ / 0-)

        will increase the likelihood of another Waco.

        This will only embolden the militia types.  They've been convinced for a long time now that they can take on the federal government if they so desire.  This will just reinforce that, and send the message that if you don't want to obey federal law, all you have to do is threaten armed resistance and the government will back down.

        Eventually, there WILL be another Waco, because some nutjob will be inspired by things like this.

  •  If you want to give the lands to Native Americans (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlackSheep1, chuckvw, northbronx

    then force will be required to remove Rancher Bundy and his cows from the land.  

    As long as Bundy surrounds himself with armed thugs, there is no solution that doesn't require violence.  None.  It may be possible to subdue Bundy without loss of life, but not without violence.

    If you want to let proto-fascist forces break the law, then by all means oppose any efforts to enforce the law.  

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 12:00:39 PM PDT

  •  i'm thinking: FREE STEAKS FOR EVERYONE! (0+ / 0-)

    and hamburgers for the kids. no sense wasting good steaks on people who won't appreciate them. I recommend trimming off excess fat, a thorough tining, and then marinate them, overnight, in terriyaky  sauce, with a good tenderizer. throw on the grill for about 3 minutes per side. those bad boys will melt in your mouth.

    damn, I can smell them now!

  •  Yes, But "Returning the Land to Native (0+ / 0-)

    American groups" accomplishes nothing in regard to the back grazing fees Mr. Bundy owes.

    Regarding that issue, it was obviously a bad strategy to impound Mr. Bundy's half-starved cows.

    much less dramatic to simply put liens on any/all assets he has-- and apparently the guy's a multi-millionaire due to his twenty years as a scofflaw-- that is apparently what some here believe.

    "We are beyond law, which is not unusual for an empire; unfortunately, we are also beyond common sense." Gore Vidal

    by Superpole on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 03:59:24 PM PDT

  •  Bundy (0+ / 0-)

    There is no truth to the rumor that Cliven Bundy is related to Ted Bundy.

  •  He now owes the American Public over $1million (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    True North

    It's not just that "he now owes the government over a million dollars in taxes and/or fees", Bundy owes the American Public and the American Taxpayers.  

    Having stolen over $1million, Bundy is a major criminal, not a patriot or a hero.  The patriots and heroes are those who do not steal from the American Taxpayers and who pay the American Public what they owe us.

  •  The President can designate a national monument (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pierre9045

    with the stroke of a pen. If this federal land is adjacent to the Grand Canyon, and it's not producing any revenue for the government... then why not?

    The TeaHouse (of course) has issues with the 1906 Antiquities Act and has just passed a bill to restrict the power of a black... Democratic... any U.S. President to create new national monuments.

    H.R. 1459 is sponsored by Rep. Rob Bishop (Tea-Utah) who is still mad about Bill Clinton's creation the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in Utah... which Republicans claim locked up a major coal deposit.

    The bill is not expected to be taken up by the Senate.



    A November, 2013, survey commissioned by the Center for American Progress found that: By a margin of more than three-to-one, voters believe that leaders in Washington should be creating new parks and expanding opportunities for Americans to get outdoors, instead of closing national parks and cutting budgets for public lands.

    A separate survey, commissioned jointly by Republican and Democratic polling firms, found that nearly seven in ten voters in the West say they are “more likely to vote for a candidate who supports enhancing protections for some public lands”.


    “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing
    he was never reasoned into” - Jonathan Swift

    by jjohnjj on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 09:35:34 PM PDT

  •  Bundy isn't important enough (0+ / 0-)

    Bundy may dispute this, but who cares what Bundy thinks?

    He tried, and failed, to get the courts on his side.

    This isn't a dispute between parties on a more or less equal footing.  

  •  The BLM and, by extension, the administration (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OHdog, northbronx

    showed pathetic weakness here. The Bundy ranch crowd are domestic terrorists as defined in the  terrorism laws. They, after all, were actively planning a shoot out with federal officials.
       It is against the law to assault or kill a federal official. It is treason to make war against the United States. I'm hoping that indictments  for conspiracy are coming.
       So far, law enforcement re terrorism has been a joke. Isolated ethnic people have been indicted, convicted, and sent to prison for "conspiring" with FBI UCs to commit crimes they had no capability to commit. But in this instance we had people armed and openly announcing their intentions to MURDER FEDERAL OFFICIALS and the government gives in? WTF!

  •  Bundy neglects that his family use of the land (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OHdog, Vetwife, BlueZone

    was preceded by statehood some 20 years before his family showed up.  The state constitution even specifically states that allegiance to the Constitution is required of all state residents (h/t to Abe Lincoln looking to increase # of Free States).  Therefore federal control of the property preceded any claim his family would have by a couple of decades.

    This reminds me of a guy who claims his great grandfather left a permanent easement on his land so that all succeeding generations would be able to hunt the land regardless of who the owner of record was.  This is an ongoing headache for me as the guy continues to poach at will though exhaustive research reveals no such codicil or provision in any will by any of his family.  His grandfather died in 1923 and this guy was born in 1963.  He has several times asserted a "moral authority" to the use of the land on the grounds his grandfather said this on his deathbed.  Of course, there is no record of this either and he did not assert it until he was arrested for littering and trespassing.  (his lawyer tried to assert in magistrate's court that state trespass laws are unconstitutional)

    This is part of the nightmare of these Sovereign Citizens; they have a bizarre view of ownership and a very poor understanding of how the law works.    

  •  Overgrazing on desert terrain was exemplified (0+ / 0-)

    in the early 1940's after the creation of Big Bend National Park. Because of the war effort the ranchers who had been grazing cattle on public land were allowed to continue during the war. Knowing of the time limit the ranchers then put three to four times the number of live stock on that range as was supported previously. The damage to the area was intense and in some cases permanent. A case similar to today's Bundy fiasco happened near Big Bend when a former ranch became a state park. All of the current issues were mirrored then. And after much whining and nashing of teeth today it is a success for people interested in outdoor recreation (except four wheel drive vehicles are a bit much).

    Life is just a bowl of Cherries, that stain your hands and clothes and have pits that break your teeth.

    by OHdog on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 08:01:10 AM PDT

  •  I have no problem with police (0+ / 0-)

    or other government authorities exercising their enforcement powers when they're enforcing actual rules.  (This is in response to the update.)  This toolbag is stealing from the US government, and by extension from the American people.  Since handing over BLM land to Native Americans isn't going to happen and the "sovereign citizen" idiots will never peacefully treat with a government they consider illegitimate, how do you really propose this be settled?  The display of weakness by the Feds in Nevada only emboldens the idiots.  Arresting their asses and throwing them in jail would make the point that while they're entitled to their opinions on government, they're not entitled to engage in illegal behavior because of those opinions.

    "Education is the key to unlock the golden door of freedom." -- G.W.Carver

    by northbronx on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 08:32:31 AM PDT

  •  Why haven't Rethug pundits mentioned (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pierre9045

    it's the Tyrant Reagan's grazing fees?

    Yes, Bundy and his militia friends have demonized the tyrannical Federal government for demanding reasonable fees for grazing our modern-day commons, and right wing pundits and bloggers are fond of personalizing the dictatorial lawlessness of President Obama.  BUT, it's gotta be a bit embarrassing for them to tell the American public that it was not by act of Congress that the current fees for grazing public land were determined in 1986 and that the Departments of Agriculture and Interior was charged to set and exact those fees by a formula determined by Ronald Reagan.

    Yes, it is by way of an imperious executive decree of Saint Ronnie that Bundy and his neighbors are yoked with those onerous obligations to a distant overlord.  

    I guess that's just too awkward a fact for Sean Hannity, Mike Huckabee or Rush Limbaugh to mention just now.

    •  Making this connection to Reagan (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eztempo

      I would say it is worth writing a diary all it's own. I'm sure this thread is much too stale for the point you are making to reach as many people as it should.

      "In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.” -Confucius

      by pierre9045 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 05:06:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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