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Apparently Christianity  is incompatible with a free society at least as preached and practiced by Gina Miller (Islam is incompatible with a free society) and those Fundamentalist Extremist like her. As usual Gina's rantings and ravings are full of nonsense and half truths. But the loony who is always screaming about The U.S. Constitution is now supporting a foreigner who wants to ignore it.

    Reason: Here in the United States, you'd advocate the abolition of –

   Hirsi Ali: All Muslim schools. Close them down. Yeah, that sounds absolutist. I think 10 years ago things were different, but now the jihadi genie is out of the bottle. I've been saying this in Australia and in the U.K. and so on, and I get exactly the same arguments: The Constitution doesn't allow it. But we need to ask where these constitutions came from to start with – what's the history of Article 23 in the Netherlands, for instance? There were no Muslim schools when the constitution was written. There were no jihadists. They had no idea.

    Reason: Do you believe that the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights – documents from more than 200 [years] ago – ought to change?

    Hirsi Ali: They're not infallible. These Western constitutions are products of the Enlightenment. They're products of reason, and reason dictates that you can only progress when you can analyze the circumstances and act accordingly. So now that we live under different conditions, the threat is different. Constitutions can be adapted, and they are, sometimes. The American Constitution has been amended a number of times.

I wonder how OK Ms. Miller would be with Hirsi Ali's position if she wanted to close down all Christian Schools in the United States?  Luckily our Constitution protects the rights of Americans to practice the religion of their choice including the Muslim Religion.

Ali apparently is pretty ignorant of history. Islam has been around for many many years and indeed did exist when the United States Constitution came into being. In fact one of the first treaties the fledgling nation signed was with the Muslim Nation of Tripoli.

   Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. ~U.S. Treaty with Tripoli 1796-1797
So Ms. Miller is actively supporting someone who wants to strip Americans of their right to practice the religion of their choice. Someone who wants us to change our Constitution to suit her radical agenda. I wonder what other rights Ms. Miller and Hirsi Ali would strip Americans of?  
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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (5+ / 1-)

    "High-minded individuals are more dangerous than criminals. they can always find hypocritical excuses for committing acts of violence." Amelia Peabody Emerson

    by TheRealAlasandra on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 12:57:39 PM PDT

  •  Your diary title is misleading. (6+ / 0-)

    Since in the diary itself you say you are talking about 'Fundamentalist Extremist' Christianity, you should change the title to reflect that.

    "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

    by Calvino Partigiani on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 01:08:09 PM PDT

    •  Title is click bait (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rktect

      But the first sentence is pretty clear:

      Apparently Christianity  is incompatible with a free society at least as preached and practiced by Gina Miller and those Fundamentalist Extremist like her
      •  Click bait, ok, but entirely misleading. (6+ / 0-)

        "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

        by Calvino Partigiani on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 01:18:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If (0+ / 0-)

          you read Gina's rant then you know she lumps all Muslims in with radical Islamist. I thought I would return the favor and lump all Christians together too. It does make good click bait.

          Sorry if you found it misleading.

          "High-minded individuals are more dangerous than criminals. they can always find hypocritical excuses for committing acts of violence." Amelia Peabody Emerson

          by TheRealAlasandra on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 07:42:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Christianity for whatever reason is declining (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheRealAlasandra

        It may be that fundamentalist extremists have been successful in associating its image with hatred and "pro life" up till it leaves the womb anti woman intolerance,
        and with that hatred of minorities, diversity, other religions, immigration, education, science, healthcare, social security, medicare, medicaid, charity, free clinics, planned parenthood, a long list of groups who have been given no reason to want to associate themselves in any way with this image of Christianity.

        On the other hand there is a new Pope who represents the possibility of a different side to Christianity, one that replaces religious dogma with more human values that some of us can see as a better path for believers to take.

        I have no problem with religious freedom allowing faith, hope, peace, love, charity to go where they will; I don't see any reason for Christians to be be afraid of other similar religions based on the same book they worship or close variations on it.

        There is no reason to be afraid of  the various rival sects of Christianity, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or its spin offs and predecessors, Judaism, Wicca, Islam, , Mormonism, Satanism.

        Christians have no need to take issue even with religious beliefs that go farther afield such as atheism or animistic or pagan religions, or beliefs concerning what is right and proper that defy definition as a faith and are just more of a culture or a tradition such as ancestor worship, or getting high to reach a spirit plain by whatever means deemed necessary.

        And yet despite there is no need to pick fights, that is what large segments of Christianity have been doing for the last couple of millenia with crusades, holocausts, genocides, hate crimes, inquisitions, pogroms and purges, the burning of witches and heretics, mutilations, scarlet letters, the persecution of homosexuals along with the protection of pedophiles among the clergy, the abolition of laws that truly do grant religious freedom, women's rights, the rights of minorities and diverse populations to make their own choices about what is right and proper.

        Its not just Christianity on the decline either. Many Americans have found they  no longer have a need for a church or temple or congregation to determine and govern their rights of passage, to say who can marry whom or divorce them, or have children in or out of wedlock, or to give them the comforts of confession and indulgence for their sins, or to define sins, or to determine where we can and can't be laid to rest and how.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 05:09:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Also, Christians who are not necessarily (4+ / 0-)

      progressive point to this and say, "See, there's a war being waged against Christiianity by the left. " They won't bother dealing with the substance.

      Progressives need Christians, atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, disciples of the FSM, and every one else, Bahai, Sikhs, pagans, etc. to stand in common cause against the gop and Christian Nationalists.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 02:46:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Who is Hirsi Ali? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    craiger

    You kind of lost me with your thesis.

  •  There must be 100,000 + forms... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fishtroller01, IamGumby

    ...and interpretations of Christianity, many of which would fully support and/or be against all kinds of markets.  So you should change your title.

    Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

    by dov12348 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 01:23:03 PM PDT

  •  Neither Christianity nor Islam is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Visceral, BYw, ItsaMathJoke

    actually compatible with the fundamental assumptions of a democracy.  Both are based on "King" worship... king of kings, lord of lords... bowing, kneeling, genuflecting etc. to some supreme ruler.  Totally un-American in my view. I don't know how people reconcile being religious and being a follower of the concepts of a free democracy.  We fought a big war so we wouldn't have to bow to a king and yet religionists do it every day.  Really weird when you think about it. Who voted God or Allah or Jesus or Mohammad into office anyway?

    I greatly admire Aayan Hirsi Ali and everyone should read her book Infidel. It's really the only way one can understand why she says some of the things she does. Whether you agree with her or not, she has good reason to make the statements that she makes.  

    •  Well the answer to your question is at the very (4+ / 0-)

      center of American History. It's in the First Amendment and the history of the development of the First Amendment.

      We created a secular governance specifically because we had multiple faiths as well as the Enlightenment represented in the 13 colonies and among the "founding fathers".

      It works just fine, and has allowed the flourishing of various sects of Christianity as well as other groups.
      The Christian Nationalists who pose a threat to our democracy are idiots. They're in essence trying to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

      There's a number of reasons why the Christian Nationalists have gained power and control the gop now.
      They are, among other things, idiots.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 02:59:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's also (arguably) reinforced by Scripture. (0+ / 0-)
        Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."
                                      --Mark 12:17 (NIV)
        Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
                                     --Romans 13:1 (NIV)
        The first quotation was delivered to Jewish religious leaders (who were no fans of Caesar), while the second was delivered to the early church in Rome.

        In both cases, however, we see an explicit recognition of--and implied support of--the role of civil government. One could also argue that the former quotation gives a strong religious imperative to the separation of church and state.

        The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

        by wesmorgan1 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 06:22:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Since I believe that Jesus Christ (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheRealAlasandra

          is a mythology, I really don't put a whole lot of stock in what he was reported to have said or done.  Paul, on the other hand was most likely a real person who was a member of a Christ cult.  A good read on this is The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty.

          •  Then why ask the question? (0+ / 0-)

            You wrote:

            I don't know how people reconcile being religious and being a follower of the concepts of a free democracy.
            I gave you examples from one faith tradition that do exactly that--reconcile religious belief and civil government--to answer your implied question.

            You may not like the source or the tradition, but you now know at least one approach/interpretation that reconciles the two.

            If nothing else, I thought you'd appreciate the references for future use, when a believer who doesn't pay attention to their own sources starts spouting that "Christian nation" or "godly government" nonsense.  **grin**

            The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

            by wesmorgan1 on Fri Apr 18, 2014 at 06:58:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I have a book edited by Lenni Brenner (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheRealAlasandra

        titled "Jefferson and Madison on Separation of Church and State; Writings on Religion and Secularism".  It is basically all the letters that these two men wrote concerning religion during their lifetimes. For one thing, you can see the evolution of their ideas on religion from their early days to old age. It is particularly fascinating how Jefferson and Adams after reigniting their friendship in retirement were more and more skeptical of the claims of religion. They predicted to each other at one point that as the country became more and more educated, most religious people would become Unitarian. ( So much for you Trinitarians!)

        I really believe that if Jefferson had lived long enough to study the works of Charles Darwin that he would have become an agnostic/atheist.

        I also believe that if they could see what has happened to this country in terms of the "encroachment of ecclesiastical bodies", as Madison liked to say, that they would go back and make the religious clause in the Bill of Rights much more restrictive of religion.

    •  The Puritans would have argued... (0+ / 0-)

      ...that the reason not to have earthly kings is precisely because only Jesus is worthy of such exaltation.  They made decisions democratically in churches, and the habit spilled into secular governments, because absent Jesus's literal presence here on earth, God could speak through any one of them or reveal His will through collective discernment.  That is still the premise of Congregationalism.  That is what separation of church and state is all about.  We didn't vote Jesus into office so His will does not govern our secular affairs.  Even He told us to distinguish between what we render to Caesar and what we render to God.  Most of our elected leaders throughout history has been religious to some degree and our democracy has survived.

      •  I don't think our democracy will (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vadem165

        survive much more of Presidents like Obama holding Seders in the White House and infusing his Christianity into White House Prayer Breakfasts.  

        The Founders never mentioned the Puritans as a source for their writing of our Constitution.  They looked to the Greeks, the Romans, the Dutch and other forms of government in history. They also took a lot of inspiration from the Cherokee form of representational government. John Adams wrote a book titled A Defense of the Constitutions of the United States of America outlining where the Founders got their ideas.  Nothing on the Puritans. They were well aware of the hangings performed on Quakers and other non-conformers that sent Roger Williams packing.  In fact, while they did not mention Williams by name, his writings on separation of church and state lived on thru William Penn and others and flowed to people like Jefferson.

        If Jesus doesn't govern secular affairs, then why do people pray to him for guidance on those affairs?

        •  Your history is absolutely correct... (0+ / 0-)

          ...but I don't think celebrating traditions hurts anything.  For some prayer is how they feel best guided, but in practice it's really no different from what a non-believer or even a believer with a more secular mentality would simply call searching their conscience.

  •  Context, please (4+ / 0-)

    The comments above mine ask some important questions.  It's not really good form to post and run, either.

    Seneca Falls, Selma, Stonewall

    by Dave in Northridge on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 01:42:35 PM PDT

  •  Are other religions compatible (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IamGumby, Shawn87, gramofsam1

    or are you arguing against religion and free exercise?

    •  Not Really (0+ / 0-)

      My argument is that all religions have to be respected and treated fairly.

      If Muslims aren't allowed to have Muslim Schools, then Christians shouldn't be allowed to have Christian Schools. Changing the Constitution as Hirsi Ali advocated to prevent Muslims from having Muslim Schools in the U.S. would be wrong in my opinion.

      "High-minded individuals are more dangerous than criminals. they can always find hypocritical excuses for committing acts of violence." Amelia Peabody Emerson

      by TheRealAlasandra on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 07:54:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Change the title (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Calvino Partigiani, IamGumby, BMScott

    It's a tad misleading and appears to be inflamtory.

  •  I'd have no problem w/ banning Christian schools (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Prinny Squad

    All religion is incompatible with a democracy built on Enlightenment principles of humanism and "seek truth from facts".

    Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

    by Visceral on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 02:07:17 PM PDT

    •  That was just a part of the foundation. (4+ / 0-)

      Your proposal violates the basic principle of the First Amendment, which is the true foundation of this country.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 03:01:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the 1st Amendment was a cynical compromise (0+ / 0-)

        All the 13 colonies had established churches.  The Founding Fathers included the First Amendment because they couldn't agree which one would become the established church of the whole country.

        Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

        by Visceral on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 03:06:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Secular governance has worked very well. (4+ / 0-)

          The Christian Nationalist authoritarian cult that owns the gop now is going to die out over the next twenty years. That's why they're desperate to leverage their power into absolute control over the country. It can only survive through coercion.  This is also why we've seen a rise in rigid narrow "Biblical" dogma asserting the "authority" of the Bible. Chirstian churches will eventually return to preaching sermons on Sunday, and the zealots will crawl back under their rocks. There will probably still be televangelist hustlers, but their haul will be much less. People will be free to believe or disbelieve what they hear without being hassled.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 03:38:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  There's nothing to support that. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheRealAlasandra

          The two things the Founders were nearly unanimous on was no established church and the importance of public education.  Many colonies did not establish churches.  There are also plenty of us who are Christian and democrats.

  •  The Title Is Profoundly Misleading. (3+ / 0-)

    Unless the diarist actually believes that all American Christianity is "preached and practiced by . . . Fundamentalist Extremists." And regardless of what she believes, that's a pretty inflammatory title to "post and run" on. I hope the diarist plans to come back and take a few questions.

    "Seeing Leela fly off the Hexadecapus and crash through the moon dome and survive inside a stuffed animal by breathing a balloon was a dose of reality." Farewell, Futurama--I will avenge you!

    by IamGumby on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 03:27:14 PM PDT

  •  The diary itself isn’t bad, but the (0+ / 0-)

    title is, as others have noted, grossly misleading, and in an unfortunate way at that.  I realize that you’re playing off the title of an essay by Miller; it would help to make that clear, perhaps with a link to her essay, ‘Islam is incompatible with a free society’.

    It probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to include a link for Ayaan Hirsi Ali, even though she has been in the news lately, and you should definitely include one for Gina Miller, of whom I had never heard.  (For those who don’t wish to click, she’s described at RenewAmerica as ‘a native of Texas and current resident of the Mississippi Gulf Coast, is a conservative Christian political writer and radio/television voice professional’.  Since the top link on the front page is to an article ‘Do your part to impeach and remove Obama’, conservative may be an understatement.

  •  Cannot rec, misleading and too little info. (0+ / 0-)

    Some background and a link or two would be appreciated.

    Pope Francis: the Thumb of Christ in the eyes of the Pharisees.

    by commonmass on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 05:00:42 PM PDT

    •  I think (0+ / 0-)

      I finally got the links to work.  For some reason they were not showing up earlier after I published the diary, but were there in the edit mode.

      "High-minded individuals are more dangerous than criminals. they can always find hypocritical excuses for committing acts of violence." Amelia Peabody Emerson

      by TheRealAlasandra on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 08:07:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good content, lousy title... (0+ / 0-)

    ...but it's peppy, and I can dance to it.

    I give it an 80.

    The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

    by wesmorgan1 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 06:30:34 PM PDT

  •  Can we have a religious truce on DK? (0+ / 0-)

    I've been thinking about this for a while.  It seems that one area where there seems to be a lot of illiberalism and intolerance floating around here is in matters of religion.  I suspect that DK is a big enough community that there are adherents to all the great religions, a variety of subdivisions within those religions, maybe some minor religions, and of course people of no religion.  We should be able to critique policy proposals, such as teaching Creationism for example, that are inappropriately influenced by religion, without in the process taking swipes at religion per se.  We should understand that religion is a core part of people's identity and background, and in many cases is actually what makes some of us as progressive as we are.  We should also understand that no religion is monolithic and that no assumptions beyond some very basic premises should be made about what a member of religion believes.  I propose that every Kossack agree to, in paraphrase of Thomas Jefferson, care not whether a fellow Kossack worships no god or twenty gods, for that per se neither picks our pockets nor breaks our legs.

  •  The diary is a tricky excuse for a nasty title. (0+ / 0-)

    Hate speech, if you get down to it.

    And the cut-and-pastes don't make up for that.

    "Stealing kids' lunch money makes them strong and independent." -- Ryan Paul von Koch

    by waterstreet2013 on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 07:20:34 AM PDT

    •  The Title (0+ / 0-)

      is a play on Gina Miller's post Islam is incompatible with a free society http://www.renewamerica.com/... . I thought DK readers would be smart enough to get that.

      Curious why do you not have a problem with Gina's Title Islam is incompatible with a free society, but are bent out of shape by mine?

      We have Freedom of Religion in America which we should all value, but it has to protect all religious equally or it is worthless.

      Allowing Christians like Gina Miller to decide that Muslims don't deserve to practice their religion and advocate changing our Constitution to prevent Muslims from worshiping as they wish is the point of this diary.  Everyone Muslims, Christians, Pagans, Buddhist, etc.  deserve the chance to practice the religion of their choice.

      BTW just because you don't like something doesn't make it "hate speech".  

      "High-minded individuals are more dangerous than criminals. they can always find hypocritical excuses for committing acts of violence." Amelia Peabody Emerson

      by TheRealAlasandra on Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 09:09:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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